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Response on Sam Shamoun on the topic “Jesus as the Occupier of God’s Heavenly Throne”

 

By Ahmed Eldin

 

 

 

His article is located here:

 

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/jesus_on_throne.htm

 

 

He wrote:

According to the Hebrew Scriptures, the true God has certain characteristics and performs specific functions which completely distinguish him from his creation, especially the angels, such as being the sole Creator of and Sovereign over all things. As such, he alone deserves to be worshiped in the absolute sense. Moreover, any attempt to raise any other being to Yahweh’s heavenly throne, or to ascribe any of these unique functions and characteristics to some other entity, would be viewed as either a challenge to Yahweh’s complete uniqueness or a severe compromise to biblical monotheism.

 

My response:

Sam Shamoun starts with a contradiction. He claims, “any attempt to raise any other being to Yahweh’s heavenly throne, or to ascribe any of these unique functions and characteristics to some other entity, would be viewed as either a challenge to Yahweh’s complete uniqueness or a severe compromise to biblical monotheism.”

But Shamouns article already comprise this biblical monotheism by giving the title “Jesus as the Occupier of God’s Heavenly Throne”

 

So we have another entity along with Yahweh which according to Shamoun claim the biblical monotheism comprised and more worst the unique characteristics of Yahweh has been challenged. In other words “pure polytheism”.

 

 

He wrote:

 

To help illustrate our point note that, according to the inspired Scriptures, Yahweh rules and lives forever:

"But the LORD sits enthroned forever; he has established his throne for justice," Psalm 9:7

"At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever, for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation; all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, ‘What have you done?’" Daniel 4:34-35

The Hebrew Bible further teaches that Yahweh sits enthroned in the heavens above:

"And Micaiah said, ‘Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on HIS throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left;’" 1 Kings 22:19

"In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3And one called to another and said: ‘Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!’ And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. And I said: ‘Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!’" Isaiah 6:1-5

"He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision." Psalm 2:4

"The LORD is in his holy temple; the LORD's throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test, the children of man." Psalm 11:4

"The LORD has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all." Psalm 103:19

Even heaven itself is said to be his throne:

"Thus says the LORD: ‘Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; what is the house that you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest? All these things my hand has made, and so all these things came to be, declares the LORD. But this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word.’" Isaiah 66:1-2

The NT is in full agreement with the OT at this point:

"But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King." Matthew 5:34-35

This explains why believers are to turn to God in heaven alone for their needs and salvation, since he alone sits enthroned in the heavens above:

"To you I lift up my eyes, O you who are enthroned in the heavens!" Psalm 123:1

In fact, one specific Psalm goes so far as to highlight Yahweh's enthronement on high as being one of the key characteristics which makes him utterly unique, completely unlike anyone or anything else:

"Who is like the LORD our God, who is seated on high, who looks far down on the heavens and the earth?" Psalm 113:5-6

Since Yahweh alone is the Creator, Sustainer and Sovereign ruler over all things to therefore elevate or ascribe such functions to someone other than true Deity would be idolatrous to say the least.

 

 

My response:

 

No objection! I totally agree.

 

 

 

He wrote

Yet, astonishingly, the Hebrew writings speak of One who sits enthroned forever at God’s right hand and who even receives worship from all the nations:

"The LORD says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.’ The LORD sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule in the midst of your enemies! Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holy garments; from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours. The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind, ‘You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.’ The Lord is at your right hand; he will shatter kings on the day of his wrath. He will execute judgment among the nations, filling them with corpses; he will shatter chiefs over the wide earth. He will drink from the brook by the way; therefore he will lift up his head." Psalm 110:1-5

"As I looked, THRONES were placed, and the Ancient of days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened… I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one LIKE A SON OF MAN, and he came TO the Ancient of Days and was presented BEFORE HIM. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed." Daniel 7:9-10, 13-14

Pay careful to attention to what the prophet Daniel saw: he didn’t see one throne, but thrones, one of which the Ancient of Days, a title for God, occupies. Later on, Daniel sees a human figure who comes with the clouds receive an everlasting kingdom, implying that he is the occupant of the other throne that the prophet saw.

As we noted earlier, to ascribe such authority to someone other than God would be blasphemous and idolatrous. The only way the Psalter and the prophet Daniel could say such things is if they believed that the Person they were describing wasn’t a mere human being but also fully Divine.

 

 

My response:

 

 

Let me correct Shamoun. The quotation that he gave from psalm 110:1-5 never shows the one who sits at the right hand of God receives worship, Shamoun is playing around. But notice from his quotation that the one who is in the right hand of God is AFTER THE ORDER of Melchizedec and also he is a Priest.   

 

The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. (Psalm 110:4)

 

So we are told about a human being that is after the order of Melchizedec. How this personality can be God? Moreover, how can a man sitting on the right hand of God can be a God? Shamoun fails to realize that we have metaphorical meanings in the bible.

 

Check the figurative Speech of the Bible here:

 

http://www.answering-christianity.com/bible_quran_differences.htm (see number 2)

 

 

However, even if this was a literal statement, this does not make the person that sits at the right hand of God really God Almighty like the Creator. It can also be a respectful title but in no case God himself.

 

The other quotation that Shamoun post is from Daniel 7:9-10, 13-14. Again, in that passage we do not have any evidence about Jesus being God. If you read carefully the passage you will read that this son of man was given dominion and glory and a kingdom.

 

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. (Daniel 7:14)

 

In addition, Jesus said:

 

  And, Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. (Matthew 28:18)

 

So how can Jesus be God if he does not really own these things, and someone else gave him the power?

 

Nowhere Jesus is described as taking or occupy the throne of God almighty, Otherwise we left with a contradiction which is “ Does Jesus occupy the throne of God or he sits at the right hand of it?”

 

 

He wrote:

 

Additional support that this individual is a Divine Being comes from the fact that Daniel sees him riding on the clouds, a function which the OT ascribes to Yahweh:

"An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them." Isaiah 19:1

"He lays the beams of his chambers on the waters; he makes the clouds his chariot; he rides on the wings of the wind;" Psalm 104:3

As if this weren’t all, Daniel’s Son of Man is even given the service and worship which belongs to God alone! (Cf. Daniel 3:12, 14, 17-18, 28; 6:16, 20; 7:27; Ezra 7:24.)

All of these factors make it abundantly clear that the Psalter and Daniel weren’t seeing someone who was only human, but a man who was both fully Divine and, at the same time, distinct from Yahweh/the Ancient of Days.

 

My response:

 

Riding clouds does not make you a God. Despite the fact that the verses Isaiah 19:1 and Psalm 104:3 talk about God Almighty, God does not prove his deity by riding clouds. In addition, in my opinion how this biblical God is God Almighty when he needs cloud to ride in order to move around?

 

Let us see this verse from the Bible:

 

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. ( 2 Kings 2:11)

 

Is Elijah God from that description? Yes according to Sam Shamoun.

The verses that Sam Shamoun posts (Daniel 3:12, 14, 17-18, 28; 6:16, 20; 7:27; Ezra 7:24) does not refer to any son of man but to a story of 3 believing men that they refused to worship idols and fake gods. Please search for your own to find out.

 

 

He wrote:

 

And, according to the NT, Jesus is both the Lord who is at God’s right hand as well as that very Son of Man who rules over all the nations and judges them:

"But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, ‘Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?’ And Jesus said, ‘I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.’" Mark 14:61-62

"Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.’" Matthew 19:28

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on HIS glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me." Then the righteous will answer him, saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?" And the King will answer them, "Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me." Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me." Then they also will answer, saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?" Then he will answer them, saying, "Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me." And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’" Matthew 25:31-46

"The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, JUST AS they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him… And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man." John 5:22-23, 27

"But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. And he said, ‘Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.’" Acts 7:55-56

"Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:9-11

 

My response:

 

 

Ruling the nations and judging them does not mean that Jesus is God. Shamoun posted the verse of Matthew 19:28 that refute his own argument. Read the verse carefully

 

Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.’" Matthew 19:28

 

Shamoun tried to prove us that Jesus being the Judge and the one that sits on the throne making him God. However, unfortunately Shamoun never noticed his own quotation that says that also the disciples of Jesus will sit on thrones and judge, what does that mean? That also the disciples are gods according to Shamoun.

 

Destruction for Shamoun argument is coming also for his own holy book. We read:

 

The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, JUST AS they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him… And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man." John 5:22-23, 27

 

 

God gave the authority to Jesus. Jesus never had this authority by his own, Therefore he cannot be a God in the same essence like the Father. In other words, Father is the supreme source not Jesus.

 

The verses Acts 7:55-56 and Philippians are irrelevant quotes. These words are not the teachings of Jesus. Jesus say to pray to God the Father. We read

 

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Note: The words “worshippers” and “worship” is wrongly translated. The Greek word is “ “ proskinite” and “ proskinisousin” which the true meaning in English is “ those who prostrate” ( proskinite) and “ to prostrate” (proskinisousin). 

Also Jesus cannot be Yahweh: Brother Bassam Zawadi wrote once:

Jesus cannot be Yahweh. In Isaiah 44:24, it says that Yahweh was alone when he created the heavens and the earth. Matthew 12:18 quotes Isaiah 42:1 which says that Yahweh will send his servant. Who is that servant? It is Jesus.

Now if Yahweh was the one true God (Exodus 20:2-3) who alone created the heavens and the earth and he was the one who was to send his servant (Jesus), then that means that Jesus is not Yahweh. This means that Jesus is not God.”

Source : http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/is_jesus_yahweh.htm

 

Besides reading the wrong interpretations by Shamoun let us read, what Jesus really said according to NT?

 Mark 10:18 Jesus said “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

  John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"

  John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"

  Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

  Even in the Old Testament, the foretold Prophet, Jesus, was said to have the Spirit of Fearing GOD Almighty in him:

Isaiah 11:1-3 "1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of
counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD
(Jesus fearing his GOD)--
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or
decide by what he hears with his ears;"

By the way, the Spirit of GOD Almighty came upon many in the Bible before and after Jesus.

6-  Also, the "God" (hotheos) title that was given to Jesus was also given to many others before him and after him in the Bible.  Ironically, even satan was called "hotheos" (God) in the New Testament.  The only Unique Attribute for GOD Almighty that wasn't given to anyone else beside GOD Almighty is "Yahweh", which means "The Eternal".  Please visit: www.answering-christianity.com/godtitle.htm to see the full proofs.

Source : http://www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_had_no_will.htm

 

Reading the words of Jesus one can only concludes that this mighty messenger of God cannot be God himself.

The important points are addressed; the rest of Shamoun article is irrelevant because he quotes from the doctrine of Paul the actual founder of Christianity. It is obvious that Shamoun cannot support his arguments by quoting Jesus and whenever he do that he twist the meaning and gives his own theory.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rebuttals and Exposing the lies of the Answering Islam team.

Contradictions and History of Corruption in the Bible.

Back to brother Ahmed Eldin's section.

 


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