Author Topic: My 3rd study,The futile muslim-christian debate of "Is the Trinity biblical".  (Read 34285 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rickisam

  • Newbie
  • *
    • View Profile
Not many muslims realized that although it doesnt have clear passages which mention Jesus claim to be divine  but the NT teach contradictory nature about Jesus, and not many muslims are aware of different christology in the gospels the evolution of deitification of Jesus by the works of gospel writers. They just tend to accept the premis that NT has nothing to support Jesus divinity exactly like in the OT or the Quran

bro Egyptian is right that Muslims must be equipped with knowledge of other aspects of christianity innovation that is the concept of blood atonement, a concept alien to true monotheism


Offline Egyptian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Welcome Bro rickisam ,  thanx for your comment ...

I hope you and other Brothers ,do their best as much as possible to encourage the muslims who are actively engaging with Christian polemicists in such debates ,to rethink their position ........

those debates not only futile and waste of time ,but dangerous as well ....   I know some muslims who thought of such debates as if "THE FINAL BATTLE BETWEEN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY" !!! .... 
in any war there are the gains and the loses ,isn't it?   

I never forgot the day ,when I met a naive  muslim ,who said once, that he decided to convert to christianity , and I asked him about his reasons for such convertion ? he answered "because he is convinced that the bible says that Jesus is God" !!!!
I immediately enlightened him of the problem of his argument, and how he was victimized by such irrelevant argument for a muslim  ....
I took upon myself from that day ,to warn muslims as much as possible against that faulty approach that leads to that faulty conclusion ...

May Allah bless you and increase your wisdom and open-mindedness ,Ameen.







 

Offline arsalanmoiz

  • Jr. Member
  • **
    • View Profile
Hello everyone

I just want to say that whenever there is a discussion/debate regarding trinity, Jesus pbuh and God Almighty is mentioned. Even Christians won't be bringing in the third part of the Trinity - Spirit .... and that is obviously because there is no such proof from the bible that can make Spirit to form Trinity.   

Although christians bring up biblical verses in attempt to prove that Jesus pbuh was god, but what about Spirit, which is mentioned in the bible,   there is absolutely no such verse I ever heard from bible that would indicate that Spirit that bible talks about is divine, it's god !!!   

If no such proof for showing the Spirit God , then obviously no trinity. :)

Offline Egyptian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
welcome arsalanmoiz to the thread

Hello everyone

I just want to say that whenever there is a discussion/debate regarding trinity, Jesus pbuh and God Almighty is mentioned. Even Christians won't be bringing in the third part of the Trinity - Spirit ....
and that is obviously because there is no such proof from the bible that can make Spirit to form Trinity.   


 Christians do bring a so called textual support from the bible to prove the divinity of the holy spirit ,though with less focus than the focus on the divinity of Jesus. as they view Jesus as superior in role than the holy spirit ,in spite of their being from the same essence !




Although christians bring up biblical verses in attempt to prove that Jesus pbuh was god, but what about Spirit, which is mentioned in the bible,   there is absolutely no such verse I ever heard from bible that would indicate that Spirit that bible talks about is divine, it's god !!!   

If no such proof for showing the Spirit God , then obviously no trinity. :)

 what if there is such proof that the spirit (also Jesus) is God in the bible ? does it make a difference for the muslim?
my arguments in the thread say; no  difference,  unless someone would convince me otherwise.

Regards


Offline Sama

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile

I would like to conclude my positive criticism , with answering the question,What made Muslims commit such mistakes...

Do you know who are the christian Unitarians? Those are the people who (even before Islam) though believed in the new testament as fully the word of God , and Jesus was crucified and atoned the sinful Christians. yet they objected to the trinity. examples of them ,The Arians ,testimony of Jehovah etc.....

their belief of the new testament as fully inspired, and at the same time rejecting the trinity ,forced them to argue that the trinity proof texts are misunderstood by the so called orthodox Christianity.

the Muslim writers made the mistake of following their arguments, assuming they have our exact position,but the fact our problem with the trinity is much deeper that their ..

out problem can't be resolved by believing that the bible has a textual support for the trinity ... because If there was such textual support ,it would be included automatically in the human made passages that are included within the Injeel..

one last word ...

I hope the dear Muslims who read that ,no longer waste their times ,getting themselves into such futile headache called "Is the trinity biblical ,the debate"....


...........................

To be continued inshallah

peace be upon you.

Assalam alaikum
What do you suggest for a muslim to explain that trinity is wrong ?

Offline Egyptian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile

Assalam alaikum
What do you suggest for a muslim to explain that trinity is wrong ?
[/quote]

Alaikom assalaam wr wb

Thank you for that question ... 

First: It is not your duty to prove trinity as wrong , it is the burden on the shoulder of those (trinitarians) who claim it does exist .......  it is exactly as the matter of the existence of God, it is the believer who should provide proofs for his existence.
"the burden of proof lies on him who asserts"

Second:
The only proof suggested for the trinity ,is quouting the bible ,that is certainly a book of beliefs not a book of science ,in order to check and verify its truth .... you will never find the triune god to be examined into a laboratory ....  it is only a matter of faith ...


Third : as I wrote before ,it is absolutely wrong to use the bible either to support the trinity or to negate its existence .....  as the best you can do is to prove that the trinity does or doesn't exist in the bible ...    Unicorns is mentioned in the bible ,but does it mean that they do exist(ed) ?

Fourth : It is again wrong to argue that trinity doesn't exist because it seems illogical , as some of the matters of the unseen (even in Islam) seems illogical ,inaccessible to the human minds (including the creator who has no beginning) etc...


Fifth: So what is the proper way to question the trinity ?

Trinity is a matter of the unseen isn't it? if so we have a great instrument to disprove it ...... let's read the following precious words written by christians themselves:

“the very nature of inspiration renders the bible infallible, inspiration involved infallibility from start to finish, if inspiration allows for possibility of errors ;then inspiration ceases to be inspiration.
Harold Lindsell, The Battle for the Bible

“Even if the errors are supposedly in ‘minor’ matters, any error opens the Bible to suspicion on other points which may not be so ‘minor.’ If inerrancy falls, other doctrines will fall too.” If we can’t trust Scripture in things like geography, chronology, and history, then how can we be sure we can trust it in its message of salvation and sanctification?
Charles C. Ryrie, Basic Theology, Victor Books, Wheaton, IL, 1987, electronic media.


Again. a belief in limited inerrancy demands the impossible__that a fallible exegete become an infallible discerner and interpreter of (the word of God)within the scripture .This opens the door for confusion and uncertainty ,undergirded by either subjectivism or personal bias.
Indeed can the holy spirit inspire error; can the spirit of truth inspire untruth.?
Handbook of Biblical Evidences By John Ankerberg, John Weldon


If the biblical record can be proved fallible in areas of fact that can be verified, then it is hardly to be trusted in areas where it cannot be tested. As a witness for God, the Bible would be discredited as untrustworthy. What solid truth it may contain would be left as a matter of mere conjecture, subject to the intuition or canons of likelihood of each individual. An attitude of sentimental attachment to traditional religion may incline one person to accept nearly all the substantive teachings of Scripture as probably true. But someone else with equal justification may pick and chose whatever teachings in the Bible happen to appeal to him and lay equal claim to legitimacy. One opinion is as good as another. All things are possible, but nothing is certain if indeed the Bible contains mistakes or errors of any kind  (Gleason Archer ,Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties pp. 23-24).


"... But how do you know Jesus except as he is presented to you in the Bible? If the Bible is not God's Word and does not present a picture of Jesus Christ that can be trusted, how do you know it is the true Christ you are following? You may be worshipping a Christ of your own imagination." (Does Errancy Matter by James Boice, page 24)




To apply such reasonable rule on the the matter under discussion (trinity) ... we can prove that the new testament is fallible in areas of fact that can be verified in order then it is hardly to be trusted in areas where it cannot be tested.

let's be specific,ok? 

what is the specific area that can't be tested ? It is the trinity ..

what is the specific suggested area ,that is strongly related to the matter,wheret the bible can be verified?

it is the claim of Jesus being the Davidic Messiah ..... what does that mean?

If Jesus is believed by the writers of the new testament as the long awaited Davidic messiah king (will be proved to be false) ,and "assuming" it is believed by them to be God as well..... Isn't proving the first to be false strongly requires the second to be false too? If Jesus is not the so called Davidic messiah,that logically leads to him not being the so called incarnated God ,as well.....isn't it?
test the so called divine Jesus ,if he failed as the davidic messiah he would fail as God as well....

Jesus as being the Davidic messiah is not a matter of the unseen , it is easily to be verfied ,just one need to read what the old testament prophecized regarding the Davidic awaited messiah and what the writer of the new testament claimed that Jesus did.....

If you compare what Jesus is written to be done and what  the  so called is supposed to do ...you will find out that he can't be that predicted messiah ....

AGAIN the best to way to refute the trinity :

Is to test the so called divine Jesus (a matter of the unseen) ,if he failed as the davidic messiah( a matter can be verified) he would fail as God as well..

here is my detailed thread refuting the concept that Jesus was the predicted old testament Davidic king messiah..

http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,27.0.html


Assalam alaikum

« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 11:59:16 AM by Egyptian »

The Trinity debate is blown out of proportion. Its simple to debunk. Ask a Christian this. When we stand before God in heaven, will we see three persons with three faces on three thrones or one God on one throne? The END!!!

Offline TheEyeofGod

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • View Profile
The Trinity debate is blown out of proportion. Its simple to debunk. Ask a Christian this. When we stand before God in heaven, will we see three persons with three faces on three thrones or one God on one throne? The END!!!
.                                                                                     :D :D :D :D at the End time, we are going to have one God

Offline MuslimBoy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
As-Salamu Alaikum Everyone,


:D

Brother Egyptian, According to you, Is there any was to convince a Christian that Trinity is False? :P

Offline TheEyeofGod

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • View Profile
As-Salamu Alaikum Everyone,


:D

Brother Egyptian, According to you, Is there any was to convince a Christian that Trinity is False? :P
.  A real christian can never be confused on that

Offline Egyptian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
As-Salamu Alaikum Everyone,


:D

Brother Egyptian, According to you, Is there any was to convince a Christian that Trinity is False? :P

Salam Bro Muslimboy

...Your question is similar to when the theist asking the atheist ,what is his proofs that God doesn't exist ?!

the fact that ,the burden on the shoulder of those who alleges. it is the theist duty to prove that God does exist ,as the Trinitarians duty to prove trinity does exist ,it is their claim to begin with.

I have discussed before the problems if we resort to the bible to prove the trinity.

take care...
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 12:36:37 AM by Egyptian »

Offline TheEyeofGod

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • View Profile

 
Quote
the fact that ,the burden on the shoulder of those who alleges. it is the theist duty to prove that God does exist ,as the Trinitarians duty to prove trinity does exist ,it is their claim to begin with.

Offline MuslimBoy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
As-Salamu Alaikum Everyone,


:D

Brother Egyptian, According to you, Is there any was to convince a Christian that Trinity is False? :P

Salam Bro Muslimboy

...Your question is similar to when the theist asking the atheist ,what is his proofs that God doesn't exist ?!

the fact that ,the burden on the shoulder of those who alleges. it is the theist duty to prove that God does exist ,as the Trinitarians duty to prove trinity does exist ,it is their claim to begin with.

I have discussed before the problems if we resort to the bible to prove the trinity.

take care...
Right Bro, but what to do with Christians? Sometimes I laugh on them...... They gave ridiculous answer, links and Videos etc... One time a Christian says that we have only 3 Primary Colours, 3 Atoms in molecule of Ozone, 3 atoms in molecule of water etc................., therefore Trinity Exists. Then I think We have only two ways to deal with them. 1. Leave them 2. Prove it From Bible. And Allah Knows Best.