Author Topic: I need your opinion please!  (Read 58466 times)

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Offline mclinkin94

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I need your opinion please!
« on: September 07, 2013, 12:51:48 AM »
(Quran 6.133)  If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to WHATEVER He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people.

Allah can get rid of Us and make another creature succeed just as he produced US from another people!

Note: The Quran specifically uses the word "Whatever" or "What" ("ma" in Arabic ما). This Arabic word "ma" cannot refer to humans; this word is strictly reserved for non-humans (the Arabic word that does refer to humans is "men من", meaning "who" or "whoever" but it was not used here). This verse says that if God wishes He can make our descendants nonhuman just like our ancestors. Further this verse is referring to ALL of mankind (as Quran 6:130 shows in context). So all of mankind was produced from descendants of another people (hominids).

(Quran 4:133) If it were His will, He could destroy you, o mankind, and create another race; for He hath power this to do.
(Quran 35:16) If He wills, He can do away with you and bring forth a new creation.
(Quran 47:38) And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you.


^Again, we see a reference to Allah destroying Mankind and creating another people. If you notice from the context the verse before 35:16 shows that its talking about mankind. Now with verse 6:133 in mind and the other verses, what do you propose is the mechanism Allah would use? Further Quran 47:38 explicitly says that the other people the Quran is talking about in 6:133 will not be like us and that we descended from another people NOT like us! 
----------------

Let me get an opinion please.

May Allah bless you and your families. And may Syria be at peace! 
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 01:48:46 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2013, 01:03:11 AM »
I also just wanted to point out that ALL verses in the Quran point to some kind of process in the origins of life. Even the ones about Adam forming from clay!

The first verses to be told to the prophet Muhammad (pbuh):

(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance

^This includes Adam. The Quran is never short of words!

Quran (3:59) Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.

^Jesus is like Adam. They were both born in a womb. This idea of God saying "be, and he was" could be some sort of intervention in the womb to make Jesus or Adam.

I'm looking for opinions, I know this is a controversial topic.


Offline Egyptian

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2013, 07:36:53 AM »

peace Bro Mclinkin

My opinion is that linking the noble verse with" human evolution?" is going far beyond the possible meanings .....

actually the best you can guess from the verses"if you won't accept how they were understood by most tafsir books" ,is that the verses refer to a process of replacement not evolution.....

next post I will highlight ALL the verse related to the issue ,inshallah...




Offline adnaanshaikh195

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2013, 09:02:25 AM »
Stop with these stupid conspiracies.

The Prophet Adam (May Allah send peace upon him) was NOT created in a womb.

"[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, “Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay."(Qur’an 38:71)

Allah created Adam in Jannah, and then by the will of Allah, Adam and Hawwa ate from the tree which they were forbidden to do so and were sent down to earth as a punishment. We didn't evolve or any crap related to that.




Offline Egyptian

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2013, 10:17:46 AM »


we need to visit "to substitude x instead of M " and  "to make x succesor of M"...

The first noble verse we should visit is:


Holy quran 9:38 O you who believe! What (excuse) have you that when it is said to you: Go forth in Allah's way, you should incline heavily to earth; are you contented with this world's life instead of the hereafter? But the provision of this world's life compared with the hereafter is but little.If you do not go forth, He will chastise you with a painful chastisement and bring in your place a people other than you, and you will do Him no harm; and Allah has power over all things.

-Who are the humans whom Allah warned to be punished and substituted? The believers during the prophet's era.
-what is the punishment? not mentioned but could be a curse from Allah to be humilated in the world ,and not necessarily to be eradicated.
what is the substitution? could be any other folk who will be more faithful and ready to do the task of supporting the prophet peace be upon him....
nothing in the verse to suggest that those who might substitute them are their seed or  other creatures succeed...



now to the next verse...


Offline Egyptian

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2013, 10:32:55 AM »

Muhammad 47:38 Behold, [O believers,] it is you who are called upon to spend freely in God’s cause: but [even] among you are such as turn out to be niggardly! And yet, he who acts niggardly [in God’s cause] is but niggardly towards his own self: for God is indeed self-sufficient, whereas you stand in need [of Him]; and if you turn away [from Him], He will cause other people to take your place, and they will not be the likes of you! and Allah has power over all things......


the noble verse is similar to the previous one...  a warning to those who acts niggardly,to be substituted of other folk who will not be likes of them but more generous and zealous for Islam....
It is not a threat of eradication ,neither other creatures substituting them...

it is not reasonable to think that Allah wants to send a message to those turn out to be niggardly, that they are going to be substituted with some other people looks physically diferent !!!

clear??

now with our next noble verse...

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2013, 11:03:31 AM »

it is not reasonable to think that Allah wants to send a message to those turn out to be niggardly, that they are going to be substituted with some other people looks physically diferent !!!


If you look at ibn Kathir's tafsir of Quran 6:133 he mentions the verses I posted in my original post and he connects them together

But if you think about it, how is Allah going to substitute people that will be different in worship? By making them different. If you notice in this verse here:

(Quran 35:16) If He wills, He can do away with you and bring forth a new creation.

^it refers to a new creation. If you look at the verse before that it is speaking to all of mankind!

Also notice this one:

(Quran 2:30) And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority."

The arabic word used mean successor. Allah will put on the earth a successor! An authority to rule over earth. It could very well be through a process of evolution. So here we see Allah's method is to make a creature succeed over another.

If you combine Quran 6:133 and the fact it uses the word "ma" instead of "min", with Quran 35:16 which tells you it is a new creation, with Quran 47:38 which tells you that the people Allah will make succeed will be different in us. Remember that Allah wants people to worship him and he wants it to be their choice, if we don't make the choice, he will eradicate us and create a new creation to succeed us! I think that you would have to accept that those verses hint at the fact that we were descendants of another people. I think this is too overwhelming in my opinion.

Quran 3:33-34 refers to Adam as a descendant of someone else and he was chosen over them. "Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds, Descendants, some of them from others. "

^this should be sufficient by itself.




Offline Egyptian

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2013, 11:07:45 AM »
Bro Mclinkin ..  I haven't finished all the verses related yet ,and I'm about to answer your question in the conclusion ..
and will be pleased to read any notes..


the next similar verse:


Holy Quran 6:28 Behold, they [who are unmindful of God] love this fleeting life, and leave behind them [all thought of] a grief-laden Day.[They will not admit to themselves that] it We who have created them and strengthened their make - and [that] if it be Our will We can replace them entirely with others of their kind.

.........

now with verses with broader meaning :

Holy quran 14:19 Have you not seen how God has really created Heaven and Earth? If He so wished, He would remove you and bring on a fresh creation.

Holy quran  4:133 If He so wills, He can cause you, O mankind, to disappear, and bring forth other beings [in your stead]: for God has indeed the power to do this.

in the previous verses Allah the almighty affims that he can eradicate the humans and brings forth others ...
no meaning should be conjectured beyond what I mentioned....

.....................................................

our next noble verse


Offline mclinkin94

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2013, 11:27:35 AM »
Stop with these stupid conspiracies.

The Prophet Adam (May Allah send peace upon him) was NOT created in a womb.

"[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, “Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay."(Qur’an 38:71)

Allah created Adam in Jannah, and then by the will of Allah, Adam and Hawwa ate from the tree which they were forbidden to do so and were sent down to earth as a punishment. We didn't evolve or any crap related to that.

The verse did not say Adam wasn't created in a womb. Rather it said a human being was going to be created from clay! The first cell that existed in earth is believed to have formed in some kind of shallow water/swamp with mud/clay rather than the deep ocean because the deep ocean is dillute. In fact, the Quran said that ALL living things were created from water! And from evolutionary perspective, it is LITERALLY true!

If anything this verse is hinting that Adam was created from the Earth. We look at evolution and we see that the first cell LITERALLY formed from clay and eventually through a process of natural selection, it gets more complex. A process of proportioning.

If you look at the next verse: "So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration

Here is a verse similar to that:

Quran 32:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

^So Allah made everything he created better. This is hinting at something.

Quran 32:8 THEN He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

^After creation from clay, our posterity comes from an extract of sperm. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.

Quran 32:9 THEN He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

^After sexual reproduction, we were proportioned into the right way and we have developed a higher consciousness (that's what the verse is implying).

Compare this to the idea that we came from lower forms of life. We were literally created from wet earth (clay), and then after a while sexual reproduction developed. And through the process of sexual reproduction, we were proportioned and given consciousness. The process of sexual reproduction creates even more variation and makes evolution even more successful.

isn't it amazing, how Allah's method of creation is so ingenious? Rather, I have a hard time believing that Allah is a wizard that pulls creatures out of a magic hat one-by-one. I think this is an age old myth. When you examine the Quran which specifically tells us that we had a process of creation and that we descended from other people not like us.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 12:07:01 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline adnaanshaikh195

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2013, 12:10:37 PM »
Lol, you find it hard to believe that Allah created as in that way?

Sorry, i believe that Allah is all powerful and can do everything.

We descend from The Prophet Adam, not monkeys.

Adam did NOT evolve or what ever, Adam was created in Jannah at first. He was created by clay of the earth that the angels when to gather from the earth.
Everything is CREATED by water because in the beginning it was Allah and water.

Don't try to look for loopholes in the Qur'an etc, we are supposed to understand it in the same way the companions understood it. The same with ahadith, we cannot make what is halal, haraam and do the opposite, (i'm not saying you are btw).

Adam did not evolve or any crap related to that, he was an entirely new creation.

When Allah creates something, he simply says Kun Fayakoon.
"Be and it is".

I'm offended by your wizard reference etc.

Offline Egyptian

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2013, 12:19:04 PM »

If you note in the previous two noble verses, Allah afirms his ability to make new creation ,but not through evolving from previous humans ,but after eradicating the whole humanity ...so no space here to impose evolution on the noble verses....


......................



the next noble verses :

from changing the nature of your existence and bringing you into being [anew] in a manner [as yet] unknown to you.



Holy quran 56:61Have you ever considered what you emit? Did you create it, or are We its Creators? We have ordained death for (all of) you; no one will get ahead to prevent Us  from changing your attributes, and transforming you into something you would never recognize.

the words in bold were understood by some tafsir scholars as:

"in replacing you with others the same as you and re-forming you in a way you know nothing about. "

If the verse could be understood as a threaten then the first meaning is more sound........
and the meaning would be a threat to them of transforming their physical appearance to be like Apes or pigs... it could also mean ,Allah is able to change both the appearance and the behaviour of them ,as he wishes..

Whatever meaning you adhere to ,there is nothing in the verse that suggests that Allah did so, neither in past or future....

Allah's ability to do something ,doesn't neccesarily requires ,that he already did it.


our next noble verse
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 12:20:35 PM by Egyptian »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2013, 12:35:16 PM »
Lol, you find it hard to believe that Allah created as in that way?

Sorry, i believe that Allah is all powerful and can do everything.

We descend from The Prophet Adam, not monkeys.

Adam did NOT evolve or what ever, Adam was created in Jannah at first. He was created by clay of the earth that the angels when to gather from the earth.
Everything is CREATED by water because in the beginning it was Allah and water.

Don't try to look for loopholes in the Qur'an etc, we are supposed to understand it in the same way the companions understood it. The same with ahadith, we cannot make what is halal, haraam and do the opposite, (i'm not saying you are btw).

Adam did not evolve or any crap related to that, he was an entirely new creation.

When Allah creates something, he simply says Kun Fayakoon.
"Be and it is".

I'm offended by your wizard reference etc.

Hello brother, the point I was trying to make is that Evolution is a more ingenious process than making every creature by hand.

Adam was not created in Jannah first. There is no such thing in the Quran, Adam was reworded to stay in Heaven with his wife AFTER he won the contest against the angels (the naming of creatures) as Quran stated clearly in 2:35 and 7:19 (please read the context of those verses). When Adam disobeyed Allah and ate from the tree him and his wife were sent back to Earth.

Take a look at Quran 2:30 All the way to Quran 2:35. Allah put a successive authority in Earth and then told Adam to recite the names Allah has taught him. Adam was able to, and he was given to dwell in paradise with his wife.

The Quran many times says that we were created FROM the earth (like 11:61).

The problem with the interpretation of the Quran the same way the companions understood it, is that, the Quran is meant for all times and places, not just them. The Quran puts verses that supports their beliefs and our beliefs without contradicting either belief. The companions believed the Earth was flat, shall be believe like them? Of course not. The Quran did not say that, rather it hinted at their belief and it avoided words to contradict our belief that the Earth is round. The Quran does this on purpose.

What's Halal and Haraam will stay though.

When Allah creates something he says "be, and it is". Exactly. ALlah creates the universe and makes evolution happen. All he says is "be" and it is. That by no means contradicts evolution.

Thank you brother Egyptian so far, I will respond when you write the conclusion :)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 12:44:56 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline Egyptian

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2013, 12:55:05 PM »

(Quran 2:30) And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority."


First : successor here was always understood as succesor to jin on one hand ,or a successor - representative of Allah on Earth, judging by his law..

the second meaning is strong ,as it is supported by similar verse:

Quran 2:30 O David, We have made you a successor on Earth. Therefore, you shall judge among the people with truth...

Second : even if we assume for the sake of argument that Adam was a successor to other humans, what is there in the verse to suggest that Adam evolved from those Ape like humans ,instead of Adam was a succesor to them after they were eradicated totally from Earth??



to be concluded next post

« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 12:57:05 PM by Egyptian »

Offline adnaanshaikh195

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2013, 12:58:19 PM »
Alhamdulillah, it's good you are open minded, BUT Adam was created in Jannah, NOT on earth.

There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE to support that Adam was created on earth and was "sent" to Jannah. Don't come up with your own assumptions with no evidence, this is very dangerous.

Allah created Adam in Jannah, and when Allah gave life to him, he went to give salaams to the angels etc, then at a later period Iblees and other angels were commanded to bow to him.

"We said: 'O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression.'  (The Noble Quran, 2:35)".

It was AFTER Satan refused to bow and he tempted them to eat from the tree that they were expelled from Jannah:

"We said: 'Get ye down all from here: And if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.  But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein.'  (The Noble Quran, 2:38-39)"


Allah created Adam in Jannah, and from Adam's rib did Allah create Hawwa. It was the decree/plan of Allah all along for him to eat from the tree which resulted in him (Adam) from being expelled from Jannah.

Abu Hurairah narrated that Allah's Messenger said: "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam: Your sin expelled you from Paradise. Adam said to him: 'You are Moses whom Allah selected as His messenger and as the one to whom He spoke directly. Yet you blame me for a thing which had already been written in my fate before my Creation?' Allah's Prophet Muhammad said twice: "So, Adam outclassed Moses."
Umar Ibn Al-Khattab also narrated that Prophet Muhammad said: "Moses said: 'My Lord! May I see Adam who removed us and himself from the Paradise?' So Allah made him see Adam, and he said to him: 'Are you Adam?' Adam said: 'Yes.' And he said: 'Were you the one in whom Allah breathed His spirit, and before whom He bowed His angels, and to whom He taught the names of all things?' Adam answered: 'Yes.' So Moses said: 'What made you remove us and yourself from Paradise?' Adam said unto him: 'Who are you?' He said: 'I am Moses.' Adam said: 'So you are Moses the prophet of the Children of Israel. Were you the one Allah spoke to directly?' Moses answered: 'Yes.' Adam said: 'Why do you blame me for a matter which Allah had predestined?"' So Allah's Prophet Muhammad said twice. "Adam outclassed Moses."

We are all descendants of Adam. And Adam was not created in an evolutionary process, he is a separate creation. Every single human on earth today and throughout history has descended from Adam, EXCEPT Jesus, he has no linage.

We do not descend from anyone but Adam.

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2013, 01:46:34 PM »
Alhamdulillah, it's good you are open minded, BUT Adam was created in Jannah, NOT on earth.

There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE to support that Adam was created on earth and was "sent" to Jannah. Don't come up with your own assumptions with no evidence, this is very dangerous.

Allah created Adam in Jannah, and when Allah gave life to him, he went to give salaams to the angels etc, then at a later period Iblees and other angels were commanded to bow to him.

"We said: 'O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression.'  (The Noble Quran, 2:35)".

It was AFTER Satan refused to bow and he tempted them to eat from the tree that they were expelled from Jannah:

"We said: 'Get ye down all from here: And if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.  But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein.'  (The Noble Quran, 2:38-39)"


Allah created Adam in Jannah, and from Adam's rib did Allah create Hawwa. It was the decree/plan of Allah all along for him to eat from the tree which resulted in him (Adam) from being expelled from Jannah.

Abu Hurairah narrated that Allah's Messenger said: "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam: Your sin expelled you from Paradise. Adam said to him: 'You are Moses whom Allah selected as His messenger and as the one to whom He spoke directly. Yet you blame me for a thing which had already been written in my fate before my Creation?' Allah's Prophet Muhammad said twice: "So, Adam outclassed Moses."
Umar Ibn Al-Khattab also narrated that Prophet Muhammad said: "Moses said: 'My Lord! May I see Adam who removed us and himself from the Paradise?' So Allah made him see Adam, and he said to him: 'Are you Adam?' Adam said: 'Yes.' And he said: 'Were you the one in whom Allah breathed His spirit, and before whom He bowed His angels, and to whom He taught the names of all things?' Adam answered: 'Yes.' So Moses said: 'What made you remove us and yourself from Paradise?' Adam said unto him: 'Who are you?' He said: 'I am Moses.' Adam said: 'So you are Moses the prophet of the Children of Israel. Were you the one Allah spoke to directly?' Moses answered: 'Yes.' Adam said: 'Why do you blame me for a matter which Allah had predestined?"' So Allah's Prophet Muhammad said twice. "Adam outclassed Moses."

We are all descendants of Adam. And Adam was not created in an evolutionary process, he is a separate creation. Every single human on earth today and throughout history has descended from Adam, EXCEPT Jesus, he has no linage.

We do not descend from anyone but Adam.

Thank you brother for your kind response.

Unfortunately, the verses in Surah Al-Baqarah do not show that Adam was created in paradise NOR Earth. They do not at all show that. All they say is that Adam had some sort of competition in naming and then Allah told him to dwell in the Garden and not eat from the tree. The verses does not say Adam was created in paradise, nor does it say anything about a rib.

So in order to understand whether or not Adam was created in Earth or not, we have to consult other verses and combine them together!

(Quran 71:14)  God created you in diverse stages

^Please look at my explanation of Quran 32:7-9, they show that the creation of Adam was not instant and had a process.

(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.

^That means we (humans) grew out from the Earth, not from paradise.

(Quran 11:61) It is He Who has produced you from the earth and settled you therein..

^We were produced from the earth AND settled in

(Quran 53:32) "He is Best Aware of you (from the time) when He created you from the earth, and when you were hidden in the bellies of your mothers. Therefore, do not attribute purity to your souls; He knows him best who guards (against evil).

^There are TWO MAJOR steps in our creation (this of course includes Adam) . 1. When we were created from the Earth  2. When we were in the womb--notice how this verse separates these two major events.

I hope that by this, we can reasonably conclude Adam was created from the Earth and so are we.

---------------------

Also here the Quran EXPLICITLY tells us Adam was a descendant of someone: Quran 3:33-34: "Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds. DESCENDANTS, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing".

So Adam was chosen over his people to survive. Noah was chosen over his people to survive. Abraham was chosen over his people for the major prophetic linage. The family of Imran was chosen over their people. Etc.
 
This evidence is absolutely overwhelming in my opinion.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 01:52:13 PM by mclinkin94 »