Author Topic: I need your opinion please!  (Read 57210 times)

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Offline mclinkin94

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2013, 12:53:27 pm »
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We are not descendants of apes, we share a common ancestor with them
So instead of saying that apes are our ancestors , they are actually our cousins ? Yeah , much difference .

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The descendant nature is very gradual, it makes Allah an even more ingenious creator than we thought ever before. This mechanism of creation is absolutely breath-taking.
I'll say it flat out : This mechanism of evolution is 100% myth that isn't supported by other than hoaxes and lies . And it clearly goes against Islam which says that Allah created our father Adam - peace upon him - from mud by his hands in his current form ( The form of father Adam and not Allah . To make sure there is no misunderstanding ) .
And if you really don't agree with the meaning of these signs of Quran and the sayings of prophet Muhammad , would you try to build a false miracle upon a lie which is proven to be a lie day after day ? Nobody said there are no miracles in the noble Quran but trying to come up with one out of any and everything is just a farce .

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Further, we have extremely compelling evidence of evolution and it's never been proven wrong. In fact, all the evidence we have point to evolution. Currently, scientists are getting closer to finding living proof of Macro-evolution despite all of the evidence we have.
Denying evolution is an embarrassment to be honest. I studied evolution, and I would hesitate to call it a theory. Denying evolution would be like those Christians who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old and was literally created in 6 24 hour days. They are an embarrassment to the world. We do not want Islam to be an embarrassment ESPECIALLY if our own SCRIPTURE supports the idea of a gradual diverse process behind creation that involved descent from human-like creatures!
It seems that I was right . You're astonished with what the west has of advancement and therefore you don't want to defy them but at the same time you don't want to defy Islam so you try to gather between gold and sand . Tell you what ? Drop by here and I assure you that you'll be shocked to know that what they've been feeding you about evolution is but a huge lie .
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/forum.php?
Just write "تطور" in the search box and choose any post . Or does it make you feel insecure ?

The mechanism of evolution is not a myth. Is there a piece of evidence that tells you it is a myth?

Allah says in the Quran he created Adam from an extract of clay and it says that Allah has done it with his hands. Does Allah have hands? Of course not! Its metaphoric. It means Allah has created man from his handiwork and he is comparing it to molding something with clay with hands. Something that has a process! A process of shaping us to get our form! Compare to what evolution explains! Evolution explains Allah's method of creation in accurate detail.

Now, what's even more interesting about that is that we actually believe that the first cell LITERALLY came from wet-earth (mud/clay). We say it is improbable the first cell came from the deep ocean because things are too dilute there to support life with the necessary molecules. So even science confirms the Quran here.

So yes, Allah has ultimately created mankind from clay. I will show you a series of verses to state my point:

Quran 32:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

^So Allah made everything he created better. This is hinting at a process of creation.

Quran 32:8 THEN He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

^AFTER creation from clay, our posterity comes from an extract of sperm. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.

Quran 32:9 THEN He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

^AFTER sexual reproduction, we were proportioned into the right way and we have developed a higher consciousness (that's what the verse is implying).

Compare this to the idea that we came from lower forms of life. We were literally created from wet earth (clay), and then after a while sexual reproduction developed. And through the process of sexual reproduction, we were proportioned and given consciousness. The process of sexual reproduction creates even more variation and makes evolution even more successful.

-------------------------------

Is there any specific thing about evolution that you have a problem with? Its not a huge lie at all, what hoaxes do you speak about? How about my personal testimony that I have seen micro-evolution live and we are about to exhibit macro-evolution.

How about all of the:
1.) Fossil Evidence
2.) Genetic evidence
3.) Molecular evidence
4.) Evidence from proteins
5.) Vestigial and atavistic organs
6.) Embryology
7.) Biogeography
8.) Homology
9.) Bacteriology
10.) exhibitions of macro-evolution:

a. Two strains of fruit flies lost the ability to interbreed and produce fertile offspring in the lab over a 4-year span ... i.e. they became two new species. (Easily repeated experiment.)

b. A new plant species (a type of fireweed), created by a doubling of the chromosome count from the original stock (Mosquin, 1967).

c. Multiple species of the house mouse unique to the Faeroe Islands occurred within 250 years of introduction of a foundation species on the island.

d. Formation of 5 new species of cichlid fishes that have formed in a single lake within 4,000 years of introduction of a parent species.

^This is very strong evidence and we haven't even scratched the surface!



Brother please study the science, imagine just disregarding Allah's method of creation and what's said in the Quran? Imagine the insult to Allah. Allah encourages us to study. And many times in the Quran, shows us that mankind, which includes Adam was created from ALAQ. Allah is never short of words:

(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance

^Why is it that ALL scientific evidence and ALL verses in the Quran about creation, tend to point to the idea of creation through a process. But denying Allah's ingenious process is rather disturbing to me and very insulting to Allah.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 02:10:32 pm by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2013, 01:00:20 pm »
Assalamualykum
Brother, you should realize that evolution is based on a weak philosophy. It is the idea that the only way to establish truth is from science.
This fails because science can't explain how life came from non life, how humans are conscious, what came before the big bang,etc...

I agree to a point. Science absolutely cannot explain everything. But when you have overwhelming evidence to support a certain fact, like the earth is older than 6,000 years old--then you can reasonably say that the Earth is more than 6,000 years old. If you cannot, then you have no way or method to understanding anything!

When ALL of the evidence we have points that creation had a process and it wasn't through Allah putting creatures by hand on Earth one-by-one, then its sufficient to believe creation had a process.

Logically, an all knowing-all powerful creator, would derive an extremely ingenious method of creation. Can we agree on that?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 02:30:43 pm by mclinkin94 »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2013, 02:16:12 pm »
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The mechanism of evolution is not a myth. Is there a piece of evidence that tells you it is a myth?
Piece ? There are mountains of evidence proving it wrong and showing scandals of hoaxes done in order to prove it be Atheists and non-Atheists . Come to us where I told you and we'll show you that we have "Pieces" of evidence .

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Allah says in the Quran he created Adam from an extract of clay and it says that Allah has done it with his hands. Does Allah have hands? Of course not! Its metaphoric. It means Allah has created man from his handiwork and he is comparing it to molding something with clay with hands. Something that has a process!
It seems I'm dealing with a retreat (Mu'tazil) ! Something for another time which we'll be more than glad to debate you about there .

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Now, what's even more interesting about that is that we actually believe that the first cell LITERALLY came from wet-earth (mud/clay). We say it is improbable the first cell came from the deep ocean because things are too dilute there to support life with the necessary molecules. So even science confirms the Quran here.
I couldn't care what you think . Evolution in all of its forms which keep changing whenever evidence appears proving it wrong are just wrong .

So yes, Allah has ultimately created mankind from clay. I will show you a series of verses to state my point:

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Quran 32:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.
^So Allah made everything he created better. This is hinting at a process of creation.
Improper explanation . Allah perfected what he created . How do you come out of this with the idea that it means evolution ?! When I say that I perfected this picture I have been drawing does it mean it evolved after I was done with it ?!

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Quran 32:8 THEN He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.
^AFTER creation from clay, our posterity comes from an extract of sperm. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.
Improper as well . The beginning of humans were creating our father Adam of clay . After that , there wasn't direct creation of clay anymore . It was through the marriage of males and females . Again , how do you come out of this with evolution ?!

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Quran 32:9 THEN He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.
^AFTER sexual reproduction, we were proportioned into the right way and we have developed a higher consciousness (that's what the verse is implying).
Writing words in capital doesn't help . Here , after the child start forming an angle is sent to blow a soul into him and then Allah gives this child sight and hearing and heart . Yet again , how do you come out of this with evolution ?!

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Compare this to the idea that we came from lower forms of life. We were literally created from wet earth (clay), and then after a while sexual reproduction developed. And through the process of sexual reproduction, we were proportioned and given consciousness. The process of sexual reproduction creates even more variation and makes evolution even more successful.
If everyone followed this line of thinking then we should tolerate those who say we were created by aliens from outer space .

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Is there any specific thing about evolution that you have a problem with? Its not a huge lie at all, what hoaxes do you speak about? How about my personal testimony that I have seen micro-evolution live and we are about to exhibit macro-evolution.
Everything about evolution makes a problem to me and every honest person . First of all , it contradicts Islam . Secondly it's not supported by any kind of proper evidence unless you really believe what you wrote is fit to be called evidence . Thirdly , it is supported by loads of lies and hoaxes and the most famous are the belt-down man and Nebraska-man . Look it up .

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How about all of the:
1.) Fossil Evidence
2.) Genetic evidence
3.) Molecular evidence
4.) Evidence from proteins
5.) Vestigial and atavistic organs
6.) Embryology
7.) Biogeography
8.) Homology
9.) Bacteriology
10.) exhibitions of macro-evolution:
All of this follows the example of the one who said Jellyfish are not deadly because they're cute . So , a guy finds a skull of a monkey , that means we and apes are cousins ?! I told you , drop why and we'll show you one by one that all what they claim as evidence is nothing more than a load of lies .

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a. Two strains of fruit flies lost the ability to interbreed and produce fertile offspring in the lab over a 4-year span ... i.e. they became two new species. (Easily repeated experiment.)
b. A new plant species (a type of fireweed), created by a doubling of the chromosome count from the original stock (Mosquin, 1967).
c. Multiple species of the house mouse unique to the Faeroe Islands occurred within 250 years of introduction of a foundation species on the island.
d. Formation of 5 new species of cichlid fishes that have formed in a single lake within 4,000 years of introduction of a parent species.
^This is very strong evidence and we haven't even scratched the surface!
Truth be told , I'm not a scientist and I don't know much about biology . But you don't need to be a genius to see a farce . One by one , examine these points and see for yourself if they are actually true in the first place and not just a lie or if they are not what they seem to be .

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Brother please study the science, imagine just disregarding Allah's method of creation and what's said in the Quran? Imagine the insult to Allah. Allah encourages us to study. And many times in the Quran, shows us that mankind, which includes Adam was created from ALAQ. Allah is never short of words:
YOU study . Having different explanations of something that might hold multiple meanings is one thing . But bringing something out of another based on irrational interruption is completely unacceptable . And YOU are the one who needs to imagine the insult to God for saying that such things .

We're waiting .

Offline abdullah

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2013, 03:00:04 pm »
Assalamualykum
Brother, I believe that evolution of animals is possible I just haven't found the evidence for evolution to be very convincing.
Evolution is just one interpretation of the scientific data proofs you have presented. For example, evolutionists see the genetic, molecular, embryological, and protein similarities as proof of evolution. While a creationist can easily argue that god would use the same blueprints to make all of his creation.
Also, a note on "vestigial organs" just because we don't know what the purpose of an organ doesn't necessarily mean that it is vestigial. For example scientists use to believe that the appendix was a vestigial organ, but they recently discovered that it's purpose is to store good bacteria.
you cited fossil evidence as one of your proofs but I would argue that the fossil evidence isn't nessecarily in favor of evolution because of the absence of transitional fossils.

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2013, 03:04:37 pm »
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Piece ? There are mountains of evidence proving it wrong and showing scandals of hoaxes done in order to prove it be Atheists and non-Atheists . Come to us where I told you and we'll show you that we have "Pieces" of evidence

I am unaware of all the evidence having hoaxes, please show me one. This sounds like unsubstantiated wishful thinking.


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I couldn't care what you think . Evolution in all of its forms which keep changing whenever evidence appears proving it wrong are just wrong .

So yes, Allah has ultimately created mankind from clay. I will show you a series of verses to state my point:

The basic idea of evolution does not keep changing. We DID come from non-human ancestors. That is fact. The exact details of the mechanism behind this may be a theory, but the idea of common ancestry is FACT.

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Quran 32:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.
^So Allah made everything he created better. This is hinting at a process of creation.
Improper explanation . Allah perfected what he created . How do you come out of this with the idea that it means evolution ?! When I say that I perfected this picture I have been drawing does it mean it evolved after I was done with it ?!

If you perfected the picture you are drawing, that means the picture you are drawing had a process of perfection. If Allah perfected human beings, that means the process of creation of the human being involved betterment! This is compatible with the idea of evolution.

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Quran 32:8 THEN He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.
^AFTER creation from clay, our posterity comes from an extract of sperm. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.
Improper as well . The beginning of humans were creating our father Adam of clay . After that , there wasn't direct creation of clay anymore . It was through the marriage of males and females . Again , how do you come out of this with evolution ?!

You would have to disagree with yourself once you see the next verse. Intellectual honesty is key! After making our posterity from semen, Allah THEN proportioned us and put something spiritual in us and gave us consciousness.

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Writing words in capital doesn't help . Here , after the child start forming an angle is sent to blow a soul into him and then Allah gives this child sight and hearing and heart . Yet again , how do you come out of this with evolution ?! 

You completely disregarded WHY I wrote the word 'then' in capital letters. This verse is showing a sequence of events,. Not an instant process as you presume. Notice how Quran 32:9 says 'HIM', who is him? Mankind--more specifically--Adam.  Adam was proportioned and through sexual reproduction, we became proportioned.

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Compare this to the idea that we came from lower forms of life. We were literally created from wet earth (clay), and then after a while sexual reproduction developed. And through the process of sexual reproduction, we were proportioned and given consciousness. The process of sexual reproduction creates even more variation and makes evolution even more successful.
If everyone followed this line of thinking then we should tolerate those who say we were created by aliens from outer space .

I fail to see the connection with the aliens. This line of thinking is an objective analysis of the verses.  Those verses (32:7-9) tell us 3 vital points:

1.) Creation had a process of perfection-----> absolutely supports the idea of evolution
2.) THEN, sexual reproduction formed--------> absolutely supports the idea of evolution
3.) THEN, higher consciousness formed--------> absolutely supports the idea of evolution

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Everything about evolution makes a problem to me and every honest person . First of all , it contradicts Islam . Secondly it's not supported by any kind of proper evidence unless you really believe what you wrote is fit to be called evidence . Thirdly , it is supported by loads of lies and hoaxes and the most famous are the belt-down man and Nebraska-man . Look it up .

Please, show us where evolution contradicts Islam. If there is one verse in the Quran that contradicts evolution, I, as an honest person, will believe the Quran does not support evolution. Show me that one verse that contradicts and you won this debate. 

The next point you made is a factual error. I'm not saying that most the evidence we have supports evolution, I am saying ALL of the evidence we have supports evolution! That should mean something to an honest person.

Perhaps there were hoaxes before, I'm not entirely sure about that conspiracy theory. But, the work I do is not a hoax.

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All of this follows the example of the one who said Jellyfish are not deadly because they're cute . So , a guy finds a skull of a monkey , that means we and apes are cousins ?! I told you , drop why and we'll show you one by one that all what they claim as evidence is nothing more than a load of lies .

Evolution is not based on just skulls of hominids. If it was, I would agree with you. It is based on genetic evidence as well!

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Truth be told , I'm not a scientist and I don't know much about biology . But you don't need to be a genius to see a farce . One by one , examine these points and see for yourself if they are actually true in the first place and not just a lie or if they are not what they seem to be .

I don't claim to be an all-knowing scientist, but I do have extensive understanding of evolution. I don't see a farce at all. I have examined the evidence of evolution, it is absolutely compelling. In some years, i guarantee you that evolution would be like belief in the earth being round, if it is not already like that.

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YOU study . Having different explanations of something that might hold multiple meanings is one thing . But bringing something out of another based on irrational interruption is completely unacceptable . And YOU are the one who needs to imagine the insult to God for saying that such things .We're waiting .

I'm sorry but evolution is largely fact. There may be tweaks done, but the basic idea that we formed through common ancestry is fact!

I'm a microbiologist currently working in marine aquaculture and affairs in Narragansett, Rhode Island. Evolution is probably the root of all biological understanding (genetics as well). It is a reality and you find Quranic verses in support of that reality.

But why do I hear so much excuse making? Isn't the first verse that ALlah has sent to Muhammad (pbuh) literally showing that mankind was created from Alaq (embryo). That does not exclude Adam as Adam is part of mankind, and Allah is never short of words.

(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance

How about the verses that show that we were created in diverse stages?

(Quran 71:14)  God created you in stages

A few verses down it says:

(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.

 We grew FROM the Earth (molecules in Earth are we are made of) a growth. That means we came from the earth as a growth. Not from an instant creation in paradise. We had to GROW from the Earth. Something involving a process

(And for some reason, its translated as a [progressive growth]. I like that translation, if I knew Arabic, I'd tell you why. But I am just going to assume that its there for a linguistic reason. You can correct me on that)

The next verse says:

(Quran 71:18) Then He will return you into it and extract you [another] extraction.

^We will be returned to the earth and we will be extracted in another extraction (like before).


I ask again, why all the excuse making? Why the refusal to deny reality and the Quran's saying? That is very dishonest and an embarrassment to Islam.

I think we all have to agree on 3 things (from just this post I wrote)

1.) Creation was not instant according to the Quran
2.) Humanity was created from the Earth as a growth that is progressive
3.) Adam was an embryo just like all of us

Connect the dots...
« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 03:12:14 pm by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2013, 03:28:29 pm »
Assalamualykum
Brother, I believe that evolution of animals is possible I just haven't found the evidence for evolution to be very convincing.
Evolution is just one interpretation of the scientific data proofs you have presented. For example, evolutionists see the genetic, molecular, embryological, and protein similarities as proof of evolution. While a creationist can easily argue that god would use the same blueprints to make all of his creation.
Also, a note on "vestigial organs" just because we don't know what the purpose of an organ doesn't necessarily mean that it is vestigial. For example scientists use to believe that the appendix was a vestigial organ, but they recently discovered that it's purpose is to store good bacteria.
you cited fossil evidence as one of your proofs but I would argue that the fossil evidence isn't nessecarily in favor of evolution because of the absence of transitional fossils.

Hello brother, you made a very good and valid point about the vestigial organs. I cannot argue against that.

Now there are 2 methods of  knowledge: Evidence and reasoned logic.

We do have some transitional fossils, but we don't have enough. So now we must use reasoned logic. Only a small fraction of things get the chance to be fossilized! So its not at all surprising we don't have all the fossil evidence we need.

The genetic, molecular, embryological, and protein similarities coupled with the fossil record and live observations of micro/macro evolution should be evidence of common descent. The reason is, that we find that similar species have similar genetics and we find mutations existing in those species which leads to different shapes. And when the mutations lead to sexual separation, that is a new species. That species' kids would reproduce and make more of it. We have seen it in microbes, and we are about to see it in larger organisms!

And I do agree slightly with the idea that God would use the same blueprints of his creation! Evolution says he did! DNA is the blueprint used for his creation! The natural processes is the method Allah used to further the creation! The truth of the matter about the blue prints is that we must accommodate it to Evolution as a way for creation to take place.

Evolution is Allah's vector of allowing those blueprints to get more complex forming higher order creation. Why did Allah do this? So humanity can exist in an ecosystem for a long period of time in order to establish worship--what we were created for. Evolution and the natural processes involved created a system in which mankind can survive and worship the creator.

If you notice, the idea of simple things making complex things is evident in the creation of the universe! We see that the big bang has allowed stars to form and stars make higher more complex atoms which allows for the complexity of life. The whole Idea that in the embryo, Allah has made steps in our creation. We see throughout creation that Allah likes using multiple steps! Why wouldn't he do that with the creation of man?

Further this is reflected in the Quran which shows Allah DID that with the creation of man.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2013, 03:30:54 pm by mclinkin94 »

Offline abdullah

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2013, 03:43:46 pm »
Assalamualaykum
Brother their have been evolution hoaxes this is not wishful thinking on the part of black muslim.
Both of yall need to chill out their is no need to be so rude to each other we are all Muslims that are disagreeing on minor issues. Emotions and ad hominens have no place in an intellectual debate.
Prophet Musa was ordered by Allah to speak kindly to phirawn, the worst of people. We are all brothers and their is absolutely no need to be rude to each other.
Inshallah I will respond to all of your points at a later date as I am busy at the moment.

Offline adnaanshaikh195

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2013, 05:18:38 pm »
I actually can't you seriously at all, the way you twist Qur'an interpretations to suit your crappy beliefs regarding evolution.

ADAM IS NOT A DESCENDANT OF ANYONE.

Surah Al-Imran verses 3:33-34 is NOT saying that Adam is a descendant. Allah is mentioning that Noah, Abraham and Imran are descendants of one another.
Adam was created in Jannah before Allah gave him life. Then when Iblees rebelled, and Adam ate from the tree, they were sent to earth. It was all of Allah's deecree.

There is no stupid evolution process where Adam evolves from another creation.

You are doing something very dangerous, trying to interpret Qur'an ayaah to suit your own needs is a very bad sin.

Again Surah Nuh [17:17] in context is from the DUST of the earth.

When Allah created Adam, He sent down Angels to gather soil from the earth, he didn't evolve Adam. Adam was created in Jannah.

The following destroys your whole stupid beliefs regarding evolution and the Prophet Adam:

"When Allah had fashioned Adam in Paradise, He left him as he willed to leave him. Then Iblees went around him to see what he was. And when he found him hollow, he recognised he has been created with an uncontrolled disposition. "(Muslim)

Now READ it again:

When Allah HAD FASHIONED ADAM IN JANNAH.
HE LEFT HIM AS HE WILLED TO LEAVE HIM.
THEN IBLEES WENT AROUND HIM TO SEE WHAT HE WAS.
Adam wasn't even living here, he wasn't given life yet.

"[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, “Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay. So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration.” (Qur’an 38:71-72)

Allah created Adam from clay.
He was FASHIONED in Jannah.

HE WAS CREATED IN JANNAH.

There is no stupid evolution process where Adam evolves from another, no. Just no.
Adam is NOT a descendant of anything else either.

Stop trying to become a hero and create your own interpretations, this is how sects/divisions come up in themselves, this is a very bad mistake.

I'm done here.


Offline abdullah

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2013, 05:52:56 pm »
Salam
My point about the similarity in genetics is that similarity does not necessarily entail  evolution.
I am not well versed in the study of evolution because in all honesty I find it extremely boring and unlikely. My point is that their are other ways of viewing the scientific data you have mentioned.
Also a note on the examples you pointed out, correct me if I'm wrong but these all seem like instances of micro evolution

Offline abdullah

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2013, 06:05:53 pm »
http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/philosophy-theology/has-evolution-been-misunderstood-revelation-science-and-certainty/
Ayy guys chill out he is only sharing his opinion on a theory which he holds to be true their is absolutely no need to react harshly. If we just show him why we don't believe in evolution it will lead to more fruitful and positive discussion. This is what Islam needs in this era, when we have pseudo-Muslims such as irshad menji and Reza aslan representing Islam we need a strong intellectual response to their fallacious beliefs and the only way to do that is with intellectual arguments.

Offline abdullah

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2013, 07:22:16 pm »
Here is an example of an evolutionary hoax
The irony of this evolution debate is that majority of the people who believe in evolution do so out of the testimony of others, namely our teachers at school or the books we read, because we haven’t done the experiments ourselves. This is no different than a new form of priesthood – the scientific priesthood! But we must be wary, teachers and scientists and priests are human beings, and humans err. For example Marc Hauser, a Harvard professor of biology, was found guilty of misconduct as he invented and falsified data in experiments on monkeys. This was not detected by peer reviewers but by a student whistleblower. Hauser, an atheist, authored the book Moral Minds: The Nature of Right and Wrong in which he claims morality is an inherited instinct and that atheists are just as ethical as churchgoers.[34] The point being made here is that although we must respect scientists and teachers, we should not do so blindly. Rather, we must always understand knowledge and claims of truth from an epistemological perspective, meaning does this knowledge have the right to claim certainty? By understanding the scientific method and its philosophy we can easily conclude that it is a blessing and mercy from God, but it does not – most of the time – produce certain knowledge.

Offline abdullah

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2013, 11:25:06 pm »
salam
Here is evidence that Darwinists suppress any information that goes against the theory of evolution no matter how strong or weak the evidence is. This is why we shouldnt try to force in evolution in to the quran. For all we know evolution can be completely disproven within 50 years. 100 years ago everybody but thiests believed  in the static state model of the universe which was then completely disproven in 1920.
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/09/how_the_scienti_1076101.html

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #42 on: September 09, 2013, 08:48:34 am »
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I am unaware of all the evidence having hoaxes, please show me one. This sounds like unsubstantiated wishful thinking. [/quote
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/science-of-natural-history/the-scientific-process/piltdown-man-hoax/piltdown-hoax-revealed/index.html
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In November 1953 Piltdown Man hit the headlines again. This time revealed as a hoax. The so-called 'missing link' between humans and apes now became a sensation as a sophisticated and infamous scientific fraud.

In the 40 years since the original 1912 announcement of Piltdown Man, increasing numbers of ancient human fossils had been discovered, most notably from Africa, China and Indonesia, but also from Asia and Europe.
None of these discoveries showed the large brain and ape-like jaw of Piltdown Man. Instead they suggested that the jaws and teeth became human-like before the evolution of a large brain.

As the discrepancies became too many to ignore and as new dating technology emerged, investigations on the Piltdown fossils began again.
At the Natural History Museum in the late 1940s, Kenneth Oakley ran a series of fluorine tests that made use of fluorine's tendency to accumulate in calcium-containing organic matter such as bones and teeth. Oakley discovered the fossils were probably less than 50,000 years old, not nearly old enough to be from a species with such ape-like features.
Following this, the biological anthropologist Joseph Weiner and human anatomist Wilfrid Le Gros Clark, both from Oxford University, worked with Oakley to test the Piltdown fossils even more stringently.

Their results proved that the skull and jaw fragments actually came from 2 different species, a human and an ape, probably an orangutan. Scratches on the surfaces of the teeth, visible under the microscope, revealed that the teeth had been filed down to make them look human. They also discovered that most of the finds from the Piltdown site had been artificially stained to match the local gravels.
The conclusion: Piltdown Man was an audacious fake and a sophisticated scientific fraud.

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If you perfected the picture you are drawing, that means the picture you are drawing had a process of perfection. If Allah perfected human beings, that means the process of creation of the human being involved betterment! This is compatible with the idea of evolution.
No , it has nothing to do with evolution . Indeed , the creation of our father Adam went through stages . But to say these stages are the so called "Theory" of evolution is a crime in the right of respected human beings ! There was a stage sand , a stage of mud , and a stage of clay . The meaning of perfecting something you make doesn't have to mean that it had a process according to language (That's in Arabic , I don't know about English) and if we assume that it is , then they are in no way related to evolution .

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You would have to disagree with yourself once you see the next verse. Intellectual honesty is key! After making our posterity from semen, Allah THEN proportioned us and put something spiritual in us and gave us consciousness.
I did read what's after it and I know what you're aiming at . Again , this in no way mean evolution . Indeed , we are forming through a process while in the wombs of our mothers . After that , Allah sends an angel to blow a spirit within us . What does that have to do with the theory of apes ? And please , you're not one to talk about intellectual honesty .

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You completely disregarded WHY I wrote the word 'then' in capital letters. This verse is showing a sequence of events,. Not an instant process as you presume. Notice how Quran 32:9 says 'HIM', who is him? Mankind--more specifically--Adam.  Adam was proportioned and through sexual reproduction, we became proportioned.
Correct me if wrong . The first one says that Allah perfected what he created which means that whichever he created was done in a perfect way . No evolution . The same one says that the beginning of creating mankind was of mud . Here , we might have two explanations :
1 - The meant "Human" is our father Adam . In that case , his creation was of mud . No evolution . After that , the lineage after Adam - peace upon him - was through sexual intercourse of husband and wife . No evolution . Then , this sperm in the womb of the mother is formed by God's will and then a spirit is blown in it . Again , no evolution .
2 - The meant "Human" is mankind in general . In this case , the first stage means our father Adam - peace upon him - himself whom was created of mud . And then , the lineage of mankind was through menial water (Sperm) . Again , this water was formed and then given a soul by Allah . Yet again , no evolution .

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Please, show us where evolution contradicts Islam. If there is one verse in the Quran that contradicts evolution, I, as an honest person, will believe the Quran does not support evolution. Show me that one verse that contradicts and you won this debate. 
Honestly , I don't know if there is a crystal clear verse in Quran which no one can interrupt in any other way . There are sayings of the prophet peace upon him doing that . However , seeing that you deny the sayings of the prophet because you accuse the science of Hadith , there is nothing I can bring you .

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Evolution is not based on just skulls of hominids. If it was, I would agree with you. It is based on genetic evidence as well!
No difference . So , apes have DNA somewhat similar to humans , that makes us their cousins ? If so , we should be the cousins of bananas as well . I'll put it in another way , there is a building in Egypt and another similar one in Morocco , do they share an ancestor ? I could accept this from my little cousin who was 4 years old and thought that the house he saw was the father of his parents' house , but from grown ups ?

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I don't claim to be an all-knowing scientist, but I do have extensive understanding of evolution. I don't see a farce at all. I have examined the evidence of evolution, it is absolutely compelling. In some years, i guarantee you that evolution would be like belief in the earth being round, if it is not already like that.
Some people say the same thing about Islam you know "It's a fact that Islam promotes hate the same as the fact that Earth is round" . So what's the point ? Evidence is what matters . And when we examine evidence , then may we judge .

And now , let's see yet more verses you interrupt in some strange ways .

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But why do I hear so much excuse making? Isn't the first verse that ALlah has sent to Muhammad (pbuh) literally showing that mankind was created from Alaq (embryo). That does not exclude Adam as Adam is part of mankind, and Allah is never short of words.
(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance
To understand this , you need two things :
1 - Understanding of language
2 - Logical understanding
As for language , if you knew , saying something in general doesn't mean there are no exceptions . Father Adam is this exception . And when we talk about logic , a man told you to go le-right and then told you to go right and even pointed to your and his right , can you still say that maybe he wants you to go left ? We have sayings of the prophet peace upon him allowing no room for misunderstanding . And if you don't believe them then it's your business .

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How about the verses that show that we were created in diverse stages?
(Quran 71:14)  God created you in stages
Does embryology ring any bell ?

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(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.
 We grew FROM the Earth (molecules in Earth are we are made of) a growth. That means we came from the earth as a growth. Not from an instant creation in paradise. We had to GROW from the Earth. Something involving a process

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(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.
 We grew FROM the Earth (molecules in Earth are we are made of) a growth. That means we came from the earth as a growth. Not from an instant creation in paradise. We had to GROW from the Earth. Something involving a process
Ok , how on Earth does this have to do anything with evolution ? In the explanations we see multiple interruption among them are the meaning that father Adam was made to grow of this Earth . Another is that we grow with what we feed on of plants . Aside from any explanation : How do you come out of this with evolution ?!

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I ask again, why all the excuse making? Why the refusal to deny reality and the Quran's saying? That is very dishonest and an embarrassment to Islam.
The true embarrassment is when someone doesn't trust his religion and so he decides to change whatever needed of it so that it matches what others desire as you demonstrated in denying Hadith .

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I think we all have to agree on 3 things (from just this post I wrote)
1.) Creation was not instant according to the Quran
2.) Humanity was created from the Earth as a growth that is progressive
3.) Adam was an embryo just like all of us
None .

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Both of yall need to chill out their is no need to be so rude to each other we are all Muslims that are disagreeing on minor issues.
Just to clear it out , there is a difference between arguing about some practical things - as was the case with some scholars - and arguing about something that leaves no please of misunderstanding . For example , among the scholars , some have said that covering the face for women is obligation , some said it is indeed better but it isn't obligation . No problem in that and everyone respects the other's opinion . But what do you say when someone says flat out that the veil -Any veil - is an invention of Saudia Arabia ?! You see what I mean ? Differences are accepted , but there are differences which can  never be tolerated as is the case with those who claim Ali - Allah be please of him - is a God . But you're right , I was wrong . There is no need to be rude .

Offline Egyptian

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2013, 11:29:22 am »


Brothers .....  I don't think the thread is about the validity of the well established scientific theory of evolution ,but whether the quran supports the concept of Adam preceded by other creation that he was evolved from ......

so plz let's focus on the issue....  also let's make the discussion civil without attacking each others persons.... 

the issue doesn't merit a heated debate....  neither merit a debate ,really..

the only thing that made me interested to share ,is Bro Mclinkin's obvious interest in the topic which he demostrated by several times he posted what is related to the issue....

though I disagree with his approach to the matter ,still it is not a matter would get him outside the fold of islam ......

till next posts

May Allah bless you....

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2013, 12:42:17 pm »
Assalamualykum.

 Brother, Allah says:

  ]"It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur’an). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkâm (commandments), Al-Farâ'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings exceptAllah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord. And none receive admonition except men of understanding)" [Suraat Al-E-Imran/3:7]



 So, none  except Allah knows the real meaning of the Verses of the Quran. Its obvious that everyone's interpretation will vary. But whatever interpretation it is, it must be logical and proved. And most importantly, the interpretation must not contradict with other verses of the Quran.


Take Care.

 
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 12:46:24 pm by FARHAN_UDDIN »