Author Topic: I need your opinion please!  (Read 57712 times)

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Offline mclinkin94

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2013, 01:47:18 PM »
I actually can't you seriously at all, the way you twist Qur'an interpretations to suit your crappy beliefs regarding evolution.

ADAM IS NOT A DESCENDANT OF ANYONE.

Surah Al-Imran verses 3:33-34 is NOT saying that Adam is a descendant. Allah is mentioning that Noah, Abraham and Imran are descendants of one another.
Adam was created in Jannah before Allah gave him life. Then when Iblees rebelled, and Adam ate from the tree, they were sent to earth. It was all of Allah's deecree.

There is no stupid evolution process where Adam evolves from another creation.

You are doing something very dangerous, trying to interpret Qur'an ayaah to suit your own needs is a very bad sin.

Again Surah Nuh [17:17] in context is from the DUST of the earth.

When Allah created Adam, He sent down Angels to gather soil from the earth, he didn't evolve Adam. Adam was created in Jannah.

The following destroys your whole stupid beliefs regarding evolution and the Prophet Adam:

"When Allah had fashioned Adam in Paradise, He left him as he willed to leave him. Then Iblees went around him to see what he was. And when he found him hollow, he recognised he has been created with an uncontrolled disposition. "(Muslim)

Now READ it again:

When Allah HAD FASHIONED ADAM IN JANNAH.
HE LEFT HIM AS HE WILLED TO LEAVE HIM.
THEN IBLEES WENT AROUND HIM TO SEE WHAT HE WAS.
Adam wasn't even living here, he wasn't given life yet.

"[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, “Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay. So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration.” (Qur’an 38:71-72)

Allah created Adam from clay.
He was FASHIONED in Jannah.

HE WAS CREATED IN JANNAH.

There is no stupid evolution process where Adam evolves from another, no. Just no.
Adam is NOT a descendant of anything else either.

Stop trying to become a hero and create your own interpretations, this is how sects/divisions come up in themselves, this is a very bad mistake.

I'm done here.

Brother, I'm not the one twisting verses here! Quran 3:33-34 is very clear in its meaning, but you refuse to accept what it is saying!

Quran 3:33-34: "Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds. DESCENDANTS, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing"

^Read it again please, it clearly calls Adam, Noah, Family of Abraham, Imran descendants from others! Allah is never short of words! Allah chose Adam, over who? And then Allah says Adam was a descendant. If Adam was a descendant and he is the first one to be like us (human) then it must logically follow that who he came from is not like-us. So am I twisting any verse or am I just reading the verse and stating what it clearly says? So am I interpreting the Quran to suit my desires, or are you?

Now, personally I don't like using hadiths to support a claim based on the history they have of corruption. But I must ask, doesn't that hadith contradict the Quran when it says we were created from the Earth not from paradise? Perhaps the hadith was talking about the soul rather than the physical body if it was true? I'm not entirely sure, but when a hadith goes against the Quranic teaching, I am sorry-I side with the Quran.

"[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, “Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay. So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration.” (Qur’an 38:71-72)

I absolutely see no problem with that verse and its support for evolution!






Offline mclinkin94

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2013, 02:50:45 PM »
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No , it has nothing to do with evolution . Indeed , the creation of our father Adam went through stages . But to say these stages are the so called "Theory" of evolution is a crime in the right of respected human beings ! There was a stage sand , a stage of mud , and a stage of clay . The meaning of perfecting something you make doesn't have to mean that it had a process according to language (That's in Arabic , I don't know about English) and if we assume that it is , then they are in no way related to evolution

Okay, I am glad you recognize that Adam was created in stages and it wasn't an instant process in paradise. That was the point I was trying to make. That Adam was not an instant creation. It involved a process of perfection and going through stages. We see this through ALL of creation. Everything has a process, even our own embryos! To deny a process in the creation of Adam is rather dishonest. Where did you get the stage of sand/mud/clay from?

Now 'perfection' is not a semantics issue. It is a logical issue. Allah perfected everything he created. That means it must logically follow that creation had a process of perfection! That was my point.

^merge the fact that Adam was created in stages, he was perfected to take on the form he took. See the compatibility with the idea that mankind was created through a gradual process? I am not giving meaning to verses, I am just showing them. They speak for themselves!


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I did read what's after it and I know what you're aiming at . Again , this in no way mean evolution . Indeed , we are forming through a process while in the wombs of our mothers . After that , Allah sends an angel to blow a spirit within us . What does that have to do with the theory of apes ? And please , you're not one to talk about intellectual honesty

Why should that verse be interpreted this way? Yes Allah sent an angel to blow a spirit into Adam as well then! Lets pull up the verses again. Please, let me remind you what the word "then'' means. It signifies a sequence of events

Quran 32:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

^So Allah made everything he created better. And creation from clay is actually recognized in abiogenesis. We actually think clay brought forth the necessary conditions for the first cell to form.

Quran 32:8 THEN He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

^After BEGINNING creation from clay, our posterity comes from an extract of semen. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.

Quran 32:9 THEN He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

^here is the most important part. AFTER Allah made our posterity from a liquid disdained, he proportioned him (ADAM) and given mankind (us) vision/hearing/consciousness. Allah BEGINS the process of creation, lets sexual reproduction happen, proportions the first human to finally complete the process of formation! Notice the word "begin".

Can this verse be any more clear? But, instead you choose to twist it so that it shows that Adam/mankind was not proportioned after the creation sexual reproduction? Instead you say that the breathing of the soul is referring to Adam's children even though the verse says 'HIM' (meaning Adam) rather than 'you'?

Do you know why verse 32:9 is referring to Adam? Because it mirrors this verse (15:28-29) which is clearly referring to Adam, so 'HIM' is referring to Adam being proportioned and THEN consequently 'you' get hearing and consciousness.

Now if you still say that Quran 32:9 is not referring to Adam, but only Adam's kids (you and I) then ask yourself:

1.) Was Adam not proportioned and given hearing? IF you say no, then that contradicts Quran 15:28-29 and reality. If you say yes, then that verse supports the fact that we were created from Earth, developed sexual reproduction and THEN we collectively took our human form (that includes Adam)--just as science tell us! So Adam was proportioned AFTER Allah created sexual reproduction.

2.) If the Quran was talking about Adam's progeny, why didn't the Quran say "THEM" or "you" instead of 'him'? "and then we proportioned THEM/you (the progeny of Adam)", The Quran said no such thing. So you must accept that it is referring to the first one to take on the final human shape.

3.) Does it make sense considering the context of beginning the creation of a human from a simple matter, then getting more complex and animal (sexual reproduction) and then taking on full human form? 


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Correct me if wrong . The first one says that Allah perfected what he created which means that whichever he created was done in a perfect way . No evolution . The same one says that the beginning of creating mankind was of mud . Here , we might have two explanations :
1 - The meant "Human" is our father Adam . In that case , his creation was of mud . No evolution . After that , the lineage after Adam - peace upon him - was through sexual intercourse of husband and wife . No evolution . Then , this sperm in the womb of the mother is formed by God's will and then a spirit is blown in it . Again , no evolution .
2 - The meant "Human" is mankind in general . In this case , the first stage means our father Adam - peace upon him - himself whom was created of mud . And then , the lineage of mankind was through menial water (Sperm) . Again , this water was formed and then given a soul by Allah . Yet again , no evolution.

And evolution is not a perfect method of creation. Secondly, the verse says "perfected", أَحْسَنَ, which means to make Good. That means Allah's creation was made to be good from its original through a process.

Thirdly, I could add a third thing to your list that you refuse to consider:

3- The verse meant that Adam was created through a process of perfection that initially involved clay. (the verse says BEGAN the creation of Adam from clay-signifying a process). So science (something you refuse to accept as valid) tells us that the first cell was formed through wet earth. It required water and earth (organic and inorganic molecules that are in Earth), that cell went through a process of perfection through natural selection, and Adam ultimately formed from it.

^Isn't #3 the one that supports the Quran and supports science? That means a rational person would accept #3, rather than your #1 and #2. But I agree, those verses can be interpreted in the way you said, but considering other verses in the Quran and science, it absolutely should not!

Imagine I say: "The computer has a hard-drive".

One valid interpretation is that the computer has a strong/hard drive to do work.

Another valid interpretation is that the computer has a physical substance called a hard-drive.

^They are both valid translations. But one of them is the more probable one. Apply this to what we talked about above ^


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Honestly , I don't know if there is a crystal clear verse in Quran which no one can interrupt in any other way . There are sayings of the prophet peace upon him doing that . However , seeing that you deny the sayings of the prophet because you accuse the science of Hadith , there is nothing I can bring you

The reality is, brother, there are none that contradict the Quran. The creation of clay and perfection of clay is actually supportive of our modern scientific discoveries.

By the way, i am not completely a Hadith rejector. I believe there could be some truth in them, but they are very likely to be corrupted considering my studies of them. Believe it or not, I still follow the sunnah as I believe it is a good thing to do and it does not contradict the Quran in any way. When I see hadiths that vary from sahih to sahih book and when I see many hadiths contradictiong the Quran, it lets me be very skeptical of them. It seems like people back then tend to exaggerate or add things to stories from their own understanding even though they didn't mean to corrupt the hadiths.


If you ever played a game back in grade school, its like the whisper game, the teacher promised everyone a lolipop if we could whisper what she says to the next person in a chain and see if the last whisper is the same as the original teacher's whisper. Although we all wanted that lolipop, we tried to listen carefully and did our best. In the end, the last whisper is so different from the original teacher's whisper even though we all had good intentions. In the last whisper, there is some truth in it, but it concealed much detail, exaggerated soem and students added their own itnerpreations to the whisper. Would it be far fetched to say the same things happened in hadiths? I don't think so.

People back then believed the Earth was flat, there are 7 glass domes above us, we could fall off the edge of the Earth etc. Those are not Quranic concepts, but the Quran supports their belief WITHOUT contradicting our beliefs. This is an extremely important point!

Example: Quran 21:33 "And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all in an orbit are swimming."

This verse supports their beliefs that the sun and the moon orbits the Earth! This verse also supports our beliefs that the sun and the moon has an orbit!

Imagine this verse said "all are in an orbit, swimming around the Earth". This verse would only support their beliefs, but not our beliefs! This is a theme that re-occurrs in the Quran. Apply this to evolution, where it supports their old-age beliefs of creation, and OUR beleifs of creation. The Quran is meant for all times and places. Unfortunately, that is why we have hadiths of people adding their own old-age interpretations to the Hadith whisper to the next person.

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No difference . So , apes have DNA somewhat similar to humans , that makes us their cousins ? If so , we should be the cousins of bananas as well . I'll put it in another way , there is a building in Egypt and another similar one in Morocco , do they share an ancestor ? I could accept this from my little cousin who was 4 years old and thought that the house he saw was the father of his parents' house , but from grown ups?

Brother, if you put all the evidence together, you see evolution. You just need a further study of it. I don't want this to turn into a scientific debate.

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To understand this , you need two things :
1 - Understanding of language
2 - Logical understanding
As for language , if you knew , saying something in general doesn't mean there are no exceptions . Father Adam is this exception . And when we talk about logic , a man told you to go le-right and then told you to go right and even pointed to your and his right , can you still say that maybe he wants you to go left ? We have sayings of the prophet peace upon him allowing no room for misunderstanding . And if you don't believe them then it's your business .

Brother this is excuse making on your part and twisting verses to suit your desires. The verse is so clear. Combine other verses with this one and you will see. But you don't even have to. The verse by itself says that MANKIND was created from Alaq. No further excuse making necessary.

Why do I get accused of interpreting verses to suit my desires? Didn't you just do that right there?

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Does embryology ring any bell ?

Embryology could very well be a valid translation of Quran 71:14, but when you put other verses together from the same chapter, it seems very improbable that's what the verse meant.

A few verses down in 71:17 it says "And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth", and then it says "Then He will return you into it and extract you [another] extraction"

So it talks about creation in stages (71:14) and later it alludes to what he means by stages, growth from the earth a progressive growth. Remember this verse is speaking to man collectively.


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Ok , how on Earth does this have to do anything with evolution ? In the explanations we see multiple interruption among them are the meaning that father Adam was made to grow of this Earth . Another is that we grow with what we feed on of plants . Aside from any explanation : How do you come out of this with evolution ?!

Again where did you get plants from? If anything it is comparing our growth to the growth of plants. Out of the Earth we grew, and back to the Earth we will return.

Did we grow out of the Earth according to your theory on instant creation of clay in paradise? No.
Did we grow out of the Earth according to the basic idea of evolution? Yes.

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The true embarrassment is when someone doesn't trust his religion and so he decides to change whatever needed of it so that it matches what others desire as you demonstrated in denying Hadith

I trust my religion, I'm not changing the meaning of verses, you are :). I am presenting them, and you are denying what they clearly say in context.

I don't deny all hadith and I follow the sunnah. But from my understanding of hadiths, I am VERY skeptical.


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Just to clear it out , there is a difference between arguing about some practical things - as was the case with some scholars - and arguing about something that leaves no please of misunderstanding . For example , among the scholars , some have said that covering the face for women is obligation , some said it is indeed better but it isn't obligation . No problem in that and everyone respects the other's opinion . But what do you say when someone says flat out that the veil -Any veil - is an invention of Saudia Arabia ?! You see what I mean ? Differences are accepted , but there are differences which can  never be tolerated as is the case with those who claim Ali - Allah be please of him - is a God . But you're right , I was wrong . There is no need to be rude .

Brother, I sensed no rudeness on your part, no need to apologize. If I have appeared rude, I apologize.

I don't believe the translation of the Quran is something that leaves no place of misunderstanding. When Quranic verses allude to the idea of evolution, a scientifically verified fact--then a logical and rational person must accept it without altering the meaning of the Quranic verses (like saying 3:33-34 didn't say Adam was a descendant or that 96:2 excludes Adam). Those are very dangerous manipulations of the Quran when the Quran is explicitly stating truth.

On verse 32:7-9, there was also a manipulation to its meaning on your part! Please refer to what I said earlier, verse 9 says 'him' and not 'you'. That means Adam (mankind) was fashioned/completed AFTER the creation of sexual reproduction, and not 'you' as individual people.

I hope you understand why I truly believe the Quran supports evolution. It is literally what the verses are saying!

An important concept to understand is that the Quran was meant for all times, so it must support:

1.) 7th century fantasy
2.) Our beliefs

^It must support those WITHOUT contradicting each other. So the way the Quran is worded in a very ingenious manner in order to allow Quranic support for these two beliefs.

I ask you all to picture it: Allah creates the universe and he fine tuned it so it supports life. Allah has scattered many life forms throughout the universe,  Earth formed through this ingenious process Allah created and living things uniformly formed throughout Earth-like places in the universe from basic things--Water and Clay (wet rock sediments), and allowed such things to form the first cell and then ultimately intelligent life so that Allah may try it. Do you not see how INGENIOUS this is?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 12:13:41 AM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2013, 03:03:59 PM »
Assalamualykum.

 Brother, Allah says:

  ]"It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur’an). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkâm (commandments), Al-Farâ'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings exceptAllah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord. And none receive admonition except men of understanding)" [Suraat Al-E-Imran/3:7]



 So, none  except Allah knows the real meaning of the Verses of the Quran. Its obvious that everyone's interpretation will vary. But whatever interpretation it is, it must be logical and proved. And most importantly, the interpretation must not contradict with other verses of the Quran.


Take Care.

This is a really good verse and it proves that old translations of verses (those carried out by 7th century hadiths) do not have to be the right translations or interpretations and that Quranic verses have huge and mountainous meaning in them, that only Allah knows the true translation.

Offline Sama

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2013, 04:46:42 PM »


Brothers .....  I don't think the thread is about the validity of the well established scientific theory of evolution ,but whether the quran supports the concept of Adam preceded by other creation that he was evolved from ......
May Allah bless you....
salam alaikum

Beware of Fallacy of equivocation;
http://quranscientificerror.blogspot.com/2013/08/re-quran-scientific-errors-on-evolution.html

Offline Egyptian

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2013, 04:45:36 AM »

Beware of Fallacy of equivocation;
http://quranscientificerror.blogspot.com/2013/08/re-quran-scientific-errors-on-evolution.html

That shouldn't be directed at me..... I don't believe that the Quran teaches Adam as descended from other creation.... neither  I will deny the strong clues for evolution .... Is that a contradiction? not at all and I posted that once in another thread... so no need for repititon ....


none  except Allah knows the real meaning of the Verses of the Quran.

I don't think the verses brought by the supporters of "Adam's parents theory in the Quran" should be included under "mutashabihat" their meaning is very clear ,just the supporters read so much in between the lines...


next post inshallah another visit to the verses ...



Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #50 on: September 10, 2013, 08:16:43 AM »
Assalamualykum.

 Brother mclinkin, go through the entire thread again and analyze everyone's opinion including your own ones. Pray two Ra'kat Nafl Salah, close your eyes and then again analyze the entire fact. May be by the grace of Allah you will be able to get an approximate answer.Inshallah.

  As this is still a controversial issue, it's not possible to say whose opinion or view is 100% correct and whose not.  Just for example, Allah mentions ''Seven heavens" several time in the Quran. And still we're not sure what it's really implying to. Some say by this Allah meant the Seven layers of the atmosphere while some says its talking about seven dimensions.


 In the same way I think the concept of evolution is a controversial issue. Well I'm not sure. I don't have sufficient knowledge regarding this. your interpretation might be right, might also be wrong or might partially be right. So brother don't remain firmly stuck to the theory of evolution as its still not 100% proved. I guess.

 May Allah guide you the right path. Ameen


Take Care.

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #51 on: September 10, 2013, 10:24:18 AM »
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the issue doesn't merit a heated debate....  neither merit a debate ,really..
I disagree . Tolerating different opinions about things which can be interrupted differently is a thing . But opposing clear signs of Quran or sayings of the prophet is not something to be tolerated . That is the reason why all those ignorant individuals show on TV and say things like Jews and Christians will enter paradise along with Muslims !

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though I disagree with his approach to the matter ,still it is not a matter would get him outside the fold of islam ......
Nobody said so .

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Quran 3:33-34: "Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds. DESCENDANTS, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing"
^Read it again please, it clearly calls Adam, Noah, Family of Abraham, Imran descendants from others! Allah is never short of words! Allah chose Adam, over who? And then Allah says Adam was a descendant. If Adam was a descendant and he is the first one to be like us (human) then it must logically follow that who he came from is not like-us. So am I twisting any verse or am I just reading the verse and stating what it clearly says? So am I interpreting the Quran to suit my desires, or are you?
My God ! How do you come up with these ideas ?!
Allah  chose Adam and Noah and the family of Ibrahim - peace upon them all - from the rest of mankind . Meaning they are above others for they were chosen to be prophets and deliver the message of Allah to people . And in the second sign Allah says they are descendants FROM EACH OTHER . The order is Adam , Noah , and Ibrahim peace upon them all .

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Now, personally I don't like using hadiths to support a claim based on the history they have of corruption.
I was right indeed . I'm dealing with someone abandoning half of Islam . And you are absolutely not someone to say that Hadith is corrupted .

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but when a hadith goes against the Quranic teaching, I am sorry-I side with the Quran.
Contradiction only exists in your mind . Before jumping the gun , think "What's the explanation of this ? Maybe I misunderstood" .

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Okay, I am glad you recognize that Adam was created in stages and it wasn't an instant process in paradise. That was the point I was trying to make.
I really despise people putting words in my mouth . Father Adam WAS created to live in paradise and then sin and repent . Wither it's the real paradise or a paradise on Earth doesn't matter here . The story is in the Quran which you claim to follow .

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We see this through ALL of creation.
If you mean creatures forming in the wombs - or eggs - of their mothers then yes . As for the myth that a dinosaur became a bird because it was trying to catch flies , I told you already .

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Where did you get the stage of sand/mud/clay from?
From the sayings of the prophet peace upon him AND Quran which you claim to follow alone .

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Now 'perfection' is not a semantics issue.
I don't care if you have problems understanding it in language or logic . I already explained .

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Quran 32:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.
^So Allah made everything he created better. And creation from clay is actually recognized in abiogenesis. We actually think clay brought forth the necessary conditions for the first cell to form.
God perfected what he created WHEN he created it . But you want to force the idea that it MUST mean evolving from something to another .

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Quran 32:8 THEN He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.
^After BEGINNING creation from clay, our posterity comes from an extract of semen. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.
I'll just repeat :
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Correct me if wrong . The first one says that Allah perfected what he created which means that whichever he created was done in a perfect way . No evolution . The same one says that the beginning of creating mankind was of mud . Here , we might have two explanations :
1 - The meant "Human" is our father Adam . In that case , his creation was of mud . No evolution . After that , the lineage after Adam - peace upon him - was through sexual intercourse of husband and wife . No evolution . Then , this sperm in the womb of the mother is formed by God's will and then a spirit is blown in it . Again , no evolution .
2 - The meant "Human" is mankind in general . In this case , the first stage means our father Adam - peace upon him - himself whom was created of mud . And then , the lineage of mankind was through menial water (Sperm) . Again , this water was formed and then given a soul by Allah . Yet again , no evolution .

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Can this verse be any more clear? But, instead you choose to twist it so that it shows that Adam/mankind was not proportioned after the creation sexual reproduction? Instead you say that the breathing of the soul is referring to Adam's children even though the verse says 'HIM' (meaning Adam) rather than 'you'?
No one is twisting the meanings other than you . And no one is ignoring what the other says except you ! If you're so weak at language and logic then that's your problem and not ours . If we really go on with you and say that the verses may have different meanings then the sayings of the prophets are the bottom line because they explain in detail the creation of father Adam . Again , if you accuse Hadith of corruption while you know 0 information about it , that's your problem . Another funny thing is : People talk to me about not forcing my opinion on others - And this is nothing to have an opinion about - while you're trying to force yours on us . You don't even say "This might be an explanation" . No , you're saying "This is the ONLY explanation" .

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Do you know why verse 32:9 is referring to Adam? Because it mirrors this verse (15:28-29) which is clearly referring to Adam, so 'HIM' is referring to Adam being proportioned and THEN consequently 'you' get hearing and consciousness.
Again , your ignorance is your own problem . And God himself answers you here :
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it is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them].

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2.) If the Quran was talking about Adam's progeny, why didn't the Quran say "THEM" or "you" instead of 'him'? "and then we proportioned THEM/you (the progeny of Adam)", The Quran said no such thing. So you must accept that it is referring to the first one to take on the final human shape.
YET again , your ignorance of language is your own problem . The verse says "Human" and that's called a noun of a type . Meaning that "Human" here means everything named human . And saying "Him" doesn't contradicts a thing except for those who see contradictions in any and everything just for the sake of showing off .

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Secondly, the verse says "perfected", أَحْسَنَ, which means to make Good. That means Allah's creation was made to be good from its original through a process.
Already explained .

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3- The verse meant that Adam was created through a process of perfection that initially involved clay. (the verse says BEGAN the creation of Adam from clay-signifying a process).
Alright , I'll explain again for reminding benefits the believers . The verse says Allah perfected what he created . You want to force the meaning that it MUST mean evolving things after creating them . But ones who know a few things about Arabic OR English know that it isn't necessary . Even when I was a kid of 8 years old and used to read this sign , I used to think "It means that God created the creatures perfectly" and no idea of evolution ever hit someone I know . THEN - and you think writing in capital makes a difference - Allah says that he started creating human out of mud . Here , there are two possible meanings for the word "Human" . The first is that it means Adam - peace upon him - and in that case evolution has no room . God started forming father Adam out of mud , and the story is mentioned in Hadith which you despise so much because you don't know the first thing about it . The other meaning is that "Human" is a "Type noun" which means all mankind . In this case , the beginning of creating man means the first one being Adam peace upon him . Now , when we move to the next sign it says that Allah - after starting forming human out of mud - made his lineage نسل made of water that is sperm . Meaning that God made human reproduce through sexual intercourse . Let's take both meanings again . If the human here is meant to be father Adam then it means that God made his lineage made of sperm which is true with father Adam and mother Eve both AND their children after them . If I take the other meaning , it's also correct because the lineage of mankind - after the first stage of the first man made of mud - is made of sperm . Let's move to the next . It says that Allah blew of his created soul into this human and gave him sight and hearing and hearts . Let's take both meanings again . If we take the meaning that it's the entire human race , it means the formation of the child in the womb as I said . If it means father Adam then it means the same . Done . No evolution .

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So science (something you refuse to accept as valid) tells us that the first cell was formed through wet earth.
Trying to make me look bad through saying I don't accept science does nothing . What I don't accept is bigoted lies supported by more lies . To put it simply , you'll clutch to any straw left as long as it means evolution is true and I can't see why .

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But I agree, those verses can be interpreted in the way you said, but considering other verses in the Quran and science, it absolutely should not!
If I hear more abusing of the word "Science" I'll lose it . I keep telling you that science keeps stepping on the remains of this myth day after another but it seems I'm talking to myself .

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Imagine I say: "The computer has a hard-drive".
One valid interpretation is that the computer has a strong/hard drive to do work.
Another valid interpretation is that the computer has a physical substance called a hard-drive.
^They are both valid translations. But one of them is the more probable one. Apply this to what we talked about above ^
Not related . I said it before , we have the sayings of the prophet peace upon him and they are more than enough for every Muslim who respects Islam .

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By the way, i am not completely a Hadith rejector. I believe there could be some truth in them, but they are very likely to be corrupted considering my studies of them.
I SWEAR to God that you're completely ignorant of any and everything in this science . Our last conversation showed it . And you need to understand that seeing something on the internet doesn't make you a scholar . Just because you read an article or two doesn't mean you know about it . And going further on will show yet more ignorance which would make one facepalm .

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If you ever played a game back in grade school, its like the whisper game, the teacher promised everyone a lolipop if we could whisper what she says to the next person in a chain and see if the last whisper is the same as the original teacher's whisper. Although we all wanted that lolipop, we tried to listen carefully and did our best. In the end, the last whisper is so different from the original teacher's whisper even though we all had good intentions. In the last whisper, there is some truth in it, but it concealed much detail, exaggerated soem and students added their own itnerpreations to the whisper. Would it be far fetched to say the same things happened in hadiths? I don't think so.
I would have slapped you for this insolence if you were in front of me . I tell you about a science which scholars spend years learning and gathering and you think making a farce of this joke deems it invalid ?!


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Brother, if you put all the evidence together, you see evolution. You just need a further study of it. I don't want this to turn into a scientific debate.
Why not ? You're so sure of it that you call denying it an embarrassment to Islam . The truth is , you were forced to study this in school and so you don't dare question it as if it was a gospel . I told you to drop by here :
www.eltwhed.com/vb/forum.php
so that I show you and you still made no comment . Truthful is the one who said that Darwinism is a new religion with a doctrine .

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Brother this is excuse making on your part and twisting verses to suit your desires. The verse is so clear. Combine other verses with this one and you will see. But you don't even have to. The verse by itself says that MANKIND was created from Alaq. No further excuse making necessary.
Uh-huh . And I'M the one being rude and offensive ? And twisting the meanings to suit my desire ? What desire ? The desire that we were created already perfectly and there was no need for a goddamned myth as evolution ?

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Why do I get accused of interpreting verses to suit my desires? Didn't you just do that right there?

Because you show serious lack of knowledge about Arabic AND English AND logic ! You have something with multiple meanings , and another one saying that the true meaning is only one . Logically , you'd go with that one meaning because there is no room for doubt anymore . But you want to force the idea that the other WRONG meaning is the right one .
Between you and me , I KNOW your type . We see ones like that every now and then . They read a few articles on internet and thought they can judge the ones who spent their whole lives learning or even say the companions of the prophet are hypocrites . Abandon the idea that you're the genius who discovered what others couldn't all these centuries .

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Again where did you get plants from?
Because it's mentioned in this sign o headache bringer !! For the thousand time , if you know nothing about language then it's your problem . No book of explanation says a thing about this doctrine called "Evolution" .  And I as a simple commoner can give a more rational explanation which is that we were made to grow out of the soil of Earth as said before . The problem is with the ones who make this myth a religion to follow . And if you look at the meaning of "إنبات" here :
http://www.almaany.com/quran/26/7/6/
it says that it is making something grow out of Earth or by making something out of this Earth . And even in the worst case scenario , if we take it as literally meaning that we grew out of ground then it is a metaphor because we have other crystal clear evidence that it isn't .

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I trust my religion, I'm not changing the meaning of verses, you are :). I am presenting them, and you are denying what they clearly say in context.
After all this displaying of ignorance of Quran , Hadith , language , and logic , you're not one to accuse others of changing the meanings of something .

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But from my understanding of hadiths, I am VERY skeptical.
Be skeptical as much as you like when you're buying tomatoes . We're here talking about a whole science . Someone with absolutely no knowledge of it is the last to criticize it . You want me to see all this evidence you talk about . You want me to "Learn" . And now you think a rotten article on internet makes you able to take or let whatever you want of Islam ?

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An important concept to understand is that the Quran was meant for all times, so it must support:
1.) 7th century fantasy
2.) Our beliefs
Fantasy my foot ! An insult to me is something I can tolerate , but insulting the companions and entire nations is unforgivable !

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This is a really good verse and it proves that old translations of verses (those carried out by 7th century hadiths) do not have to be the right translations or interpretations and that Quranic verses have huge and mountainous meaning in them, that only Allah knows the true translation.

The verse is talking about those whose hearts are astray . And if we compare between those who lived right after the prophet and some nobody who sticks his nose in whatever he thinks he can , well , you'd be the one astray .

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That shouldn't be directed at me..... I don't believe that the Quran teaches Adam as descended from other creation.... neither  I will deny the strong clues for evolution
An advice , Egyptian : Drop by as well and we'll have a talk about what you really think is a strong evidence of evolution .

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2013, 07:13:31 PM »
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My God ! How do you come up with these ideas ?!
Allah  chose Adam and Noah and the family of Ibrahim - peace upon them all - from the rest of mankind . Meaning they are above others for they were chosen to be prophets and deliver the message of Allah to people . And in the second sign Allah says they are descendants FROM EACH OTHER . The order is Adam , Noah , and Ibrahim peace upon them all

Allah chose Adam from the rest of mankind, YES! You finally get it!

Who did Allah choose Adam over? The other creations that existed with Adam.

Who did Allah choose Noah over? The other humans that existed with Noah.

Who did Allah choose the family of Abraham over? The other humans that existed with Abraham.

Notice verse 2:30; (Quran 2:30) And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority.

Who was Adam succeeded over in EARTH? Other animals.

This is nothing more than a literal interpretation of the verse.

Next, the verse does not say they are descendants from each other, that's what you want it to read. The verse says 'descendants'. some of them (baʿḍuhā) from others.  http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=3&verse=34#(3:34:1) IF you are telling me that your Arabic is better than the Quranic scholars, you got another thing coming.

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I was right indeed . I'm dealing with someone abandoning half of Islam . And you are absolutely not someone to say that Hadith is corrupted

I haven't abandoned anything. A rationally honest person cannot accept hadiths as the word of the prophet. Sorry, I consider myself intellectually honest.

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I really despise people putting words in my mouth . Father Adam WAS created to live in paradise and then sin and repent . Wither it's the real paradise or a paradise on Earth doesn't matter here . The story is in the Quran which you claim to follow.

Considering the Quran, you HAVE to say that Adam was created in Earth. I don't care what part of Earth or 'paradise' on Earth. That is just an excuse on your part to justify the invalid hadith.



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From the sayings of the prophet peace upon him AND Quran which you claim to follow alone 

Where does the Quran say sand, then mud then clay? 


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God perfected what he created WHEN he created it . But you want to force the idea that it MUST mean evolving from something to another.

You don't understand the logic here. YES, God perfected what he created. YES. What does that mean? That creation had a process of perfection. This is too much excuse making on your part to deny reality.


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Correct me if wrong . The first one says that Allah perfected what he created which means that whichever he created was done in a perfect way . No evolution . The same one says that the beginning of creating mankind was of mud . Here , we might have two explanations :
1 - The meant "Human" is our father Adam . In that case , his creation was of mud . No evolution . After that , the lineage after Adam - peace upon him - was through sexual intercourse of husband and wife . No evolution . Then , this sperm in the womb of the mother is formed by God's will and then a spirit is blown in it . Again , no evolution .
2 - The meant "Human" is mankind in general . In this case , the first stage means our father Adam - peace upon him - himself whom was created of mud . And then , the lineage of mankind was through menial water (Sperm) . Again , this water was formed and then given a soul by Allah . Yet again , no evolution .

If it meant Adam (as you agree with): Then Adam would have been created AFTER sexual reproduction.

If it meant mankind: Then mankind would have been created AFTER sexual reproduction and given higher consciousness.I believe this verse was referring to Adam because other verses in the Quran referred to Adam as being proportioned. Either way, evolution is supported.

You also refused to even accept the 3rd possibility

3-It meant mankind has went through a process of perfection. After the BEGINNING of the process, he created sexual reproduction (with semen) and after that process, he fashioned us and given us consciousness.

I'm going to quote Yusif Ali's commentary (the one I have available at hand): "

Man is asked to contemplate his own humble beginning. His material body (apart from life) is a piece of earth or clay, which is another term for primeval matter.Matter is therefore the first stage, but even matter was not self-created. It was created by Allah."

"Then comes life and the reproduction of life."

After fertilization of ovum by the sperm, an individual life comes into existence, and it is gradually fashioned into shape, its limbs are formed; its animal life begins to function; all the beautiful adaptations come into play.

The fourth stage here mentioned is that of distinctive Man, into whom Allah's spirit is breathed. Then he rises higher than animals.


^Do you understand now. LIfe came from Matter, which then sexual reproduction occurred, which then allowed mankind to be gradually fashioned into shape. The Animal gets created, and the fourth stages is what makes Animals different from humans, humans gain higher consciousness.

I'm sorry brother, the evidence here is too overwhelming!


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No one is twisting the meanings other than you . And no one is ignoring what the other says except you ! If you're so weak at language and logic then that's your problem and not ours . If we really go on with you and say that the verses may have different meanings then the sayings of the prophets are the bottom line because they explain in detail the creation of father Adam . Again , if you accuse Hadith of corruption while you know 0 information about it , that's your problem . Another funny thing is : People talk to me about not forcing my opinion on others - And this is nothing to have an opinion about - while you're trying to force yours on us . You don't even say "This might be an explanation" . No , you're saying "This is the ONLY explanation"

I'm going to disregard personal attacks (as if they disprove my arguments). Why do the verses have different meanings from the supposed sayings of the prophet? Because they are not sayings of the prophet. Simple and pure. I've been looking at hadiths and their science for a quite a while now, no rational person can seriously say they are really what the prophet said, uncorrupted--even if it was unintentional. Secondly, the Quran made it clear that its verses' interpretations are not entirely known by humans.

This is a red herring, please go back to the topic.


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YET again , your ignorance of language is your own problem . The verse says "Human" and that's called a noun of a type . Meaning that "Human" here means everything named human . And saying "Him" doesn't contradicts a thing except for those who see contradictions in any and everything just for the sake of showing off .

Adam is humans, Adam was proportioned as well. And Adam was proportioned AFTER sexual reproduction as well. Still proves my point on evolution.

Next, you say that language skills is a problem, I am using a word-for-word multiple translator site that is very authoritative. No longer will that argument of yours have any place.


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Alright , I'll explain again for reminding benefits the believers . The verse says Allah perfected what he created . You want to force the meaning that it MUST mean evolving things after creating them . But ones who know a few things about Arabic OR English know that it isn't necessary . Even when I was a kid of 8 years old and used to read this sign , I used to think "It means that God created the creatures perfectly" and no idea of evolution ever hit someone I know . THEN - and you think writing in capital makes a difference - Allah says that he started creating human out of mud . Here , there are two possible meanings for the word "Human" . The first is that it means Adam - peace upon him - and in that case evolution has no room . God started forming father Adam out of mud , and the story is mentioned in Hadith which you despise so much because you don't know the first thing about it . The other meaning is that "Human" is a "Type noun" which means all mankind . In this case , the beginning of creating man means the first one being Adam peace upon him . Now , when we move to the next sign it says that Allah - after starting forming human out of mud - made his lineage نسل made of water that is sperm . Meaning that God made human reproduce through sexual intercourse . Let's take both meanings again . If the human here is meant to be father Adam then it means that God made his lineage made of sperm which is true with father Adam and mother Eve both AND their children after them . If I take the other meaning , it's also correct because the lineage of mankind - after the first stage of the first man made of mud - is made of sperm . Let's move to the next . It says that Allah blew of his created soul into this human and gave him sight and hearing and hearts . Let's take both meanings again . If we take the meaning that it's the entire human race , it means the formation of the child in the womb as I said . If it means father Adam then it means the same . Done . No evolution .

Adam would be the first human to carry the final mutation to make him look like us. All of the other human mutations at that time had to somehow die or get hidden. So he does have a place in evolution.

Evolution perfects creation. No contradiction here.

Yes, we all already knew that human means mankind collectively. You just fail to connect the dot that that means ADAM too.

So yes, Adam's lineage was made from semen. No contradiction with evolution here. The support of evolution comes after when it says that AFTER our ability to make a reproductive liquid, we were ALL proportioend and given consciousness (including Adam, other verses say Adam was proportioned and given consciousness) This verse says that Adam (and consequently you) was proportioned and given consciousnesses AFTER sexual reproduction's formation.

So that means that Adam himself was in a womb!

Just as Quran 16:4 describes: "He created man from a sperm-drop; then at once, he is a clear adversary". If Allah created mankind from a sperm-drop, that means Allah created Adam from a sperm drop because Adam was the first man who is all of our fathers. Just as you agreed above. You see, I am not adding an excuse to any verse, I am stating what it says.

Adam was also created from nutfah. If Adam is the first one to be like us, then it must logically follow that his father or ancestors were not like him. To put in scientific terms, Adam would be the first human mutation (that is like us) that has sexually been isolated from the other human-like people and procreates.

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Trying to make me look bad through saying I don't accept science does nothing . What I don't accept is bigoted lies supported by more lies . To put it simply , you'll clutch to any straw left as long as it means evolution is true and I can't see why.

I ask you to reasonably judge what you said and your excuse making to deny the reality, and judge by what I said which is nothing more than a literal interpretation of the Quran and its application to reality. No excuses made. If the Quran declares all of mankind from being created from Alaq, then we ALL are created from Alaq. If the Quran declares Adam as a descendant and offspring of something, then he IS. No excuses made. Allah is never short of words.

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If I hear more abusing of the word "Science" I'll lose it . I keep telling you that science keeps stepping on the remains of this myth day after another but it seems I'm talking to myself

Personally, I don't think you will ever understand what science is unless you study it. I'm not going to put this one against you.

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Not related . I said it before , we have the sayings of the prophet peace upon him and they are more than enough for every Muslim who respects Islam

If you want to believe the Chinese whispers over the Quran, its your choice. Allah is the judge.

The Quran says this: "And We have revealed the Book to you which has clear explanation of everything, and a guidance, mercy and good news for those who submit." (Qur'an 16:89)

No hadith needed. But of course, the Chinese whispers have authority over the Quran. My advice is to follow the sunnah (even though it may be corrupted) because we can't know if the prophet  (pbuh) actually told us to do such.



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I SWEAR to God that you're completely ignorant of any and everything in this science . Our last conversation showed it . And you need to understand that seeing something on the internet doesn't make you a scholar . Just because you read an article or two doesn't mean you know about it . And going further on will show yet more ignorance which would make one facepalm .

I don't recall saying that something on the internet makes me a scholar. If a scholar says something, I post it and show you what they said.

I'm telling you that you are ignorant and you still to fallacious beliefs rather than the Quranic truth. If you seek truth, find truth. Not lies and self-deception and excuse making.

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If you ever played a game back in grade school, its like the whisper game, the teacher promised everyone a lolipop if we could whisper what she says to the next person in a chain and see if the last whisper is the same as the original teacher's whisper. Although we all wanted that lolipop, we tried to listen carefully and did our best. In the end, the last whisper is so different from the original teacher's whisper even though we all had good intentions. In the last whisper, there is some truth in it, but it concealed much detail, exaggerated soem and students added their own itnerpreations to the whisper. Would it be far fetched to say the same things happened in hadiths? I don't think so.
I would have slapped you for this insolence if you were in front of me . I tell you about a science which scholars spend years learning and gathering and you think making a farce of this joke deems it invalid ?!

Does the fact that scholars spent years gathering hadiths in any way tell you that they are uncorrupted? No. Do you know how they judge hadiths as to whether they are authentic or not? If the speakers had good Character.

My uncle told me that his friend said that his friend said that his cousin said that his great grandfather said that his uncle said that the prophet said...

Sorry bro, not something a logical person can accept.


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Why not ? You're so sure of it that you call denying it an embarrassment to Islam . The truth is , you were forced to study this in school and so you don't dare question it as if it was a gospel . I told you to drop by here :
www.eltwhed.com/vb/forum.php
so that I show you and you still made no comment . Truthful is the one who said that Darwinism is a new religion with a doctrine 

Give me a specific argument, please. Evolution is fact and you need to be very well-understanding of it. There is a reason why nearly all scientists accept it. Its not based on blind belief, like hadith.

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Uh-huh . And I'M the one being rude and offensive ? And twisting the meanings to suit my desire ? What desire ? The desire that we were created already perfectly and there was no need for a goddamned myth as evolution ?

The desire to make sure evolution is not in the Quran.... And yes you are twisting clear verses.

We were created through Allah perfecting us. That says that we were once imperfect and made perfect.

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Because you show serious lack of knowledge about Arabic AND English AND logic ! You have something with multiple meanings , and another one saying that the true meaning is only one . Logically , you'd go with that one meaning because there is no room for doubt anymore . But you want to force the idea that the other WRONG meaning is the right one .
Between you and me , I KNOW your type . We see ones like that every now and then . They read a few articles on internet and thought they can judge the ones who spent their whole lives learning or even say the companions of the prophet are hypocrites . Abandon the idea that you're the genius who discovered what others couldn't all these centuries.

Personal attacks will yet again be ignored. I don't attack you, so its common courtesy not to attack me. Disprove my points rather than attack me.

I am interpreting verses my the WRONG way? Or am I using multiple sources and a word for word translation made by scholars. http://corpus.quran.com/

You have a verse with multiple meanings, and you have to judge what the probability is that verse is talking about. For example:

The computer has a hard-drive could be interpreted as the computer has a hard-drive to do work, or that the computer has a physical substance called a hard-drive. Which one is more probable?

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Because it's mentioned in this sign o headache bringer !! For the thousand time , if you know nothing about language then it's your problem . No book of explanation says a thing about this doctrine called "Evolution" .  And I as a simple commoner can give a more rational explanation which is that we were made to grow out of the soil of Earth as said before . The problem is with the ones who make this myth a religion to follow . And if you look at the meaning of "إنبات" here :
http://www.almaany.com/quran/26/7/6/
it says that it is making something grow out of Earth or by making something out of this Earth . And even in the worst case scenario , if we take it as literally meaning that we grew out of ground then it is a metaphor because we have other crystal clear evidence that it isn't .

Nonetheless, The word does not mean plants, but growth like plants. There is a reason it wasn't translated as plants. Regardless if it is a metaphor or not, we grew out of the Earth  a GRADUAL growth. Not instantly created in paradise and put on Earth. So many excuses, brother, STOP. No need for excuses, the verse says we grew out of the Earth. That means were were a part of Earth. And some linguistics believe it means a gradual growth. That's it. Compare this idea to evolution vs. your creationism. What makes more sense?

Secondly you made a circular reasoning fallacy that atheists make. The Quran cannot support science or evolution because it is an old book not from God. Then they say the Quran is not from God because it is an old book that doesn't support evolution. Don't sink to their level. Of course the Quran was't interpreted to support evolution back then, although there are many possible interpretations, they would use the ones they actually think is right. That is the miracle of the Quran .Supports all beliefs at all times.

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After all this displaying of ignorance of Quran , Hadith , language , and logic , you're not one to accuse others of changing the meanings of something

After all this displaying of excuse making, personal attacks and refusing to address why I say you are changing the meanings of verses--I have to make the conclusion that you know that you are making excuses to support your old-age factually incorrect beliefs.

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Be skeptical as much as you like when you're buying tomatoes . We're here talking about a whole science . Someone with absolutely no knowledge of it is the last to criticize it . You want me to see all this evidence you talk about . You want me to "Learn" . And now you think a rotten article on internet makes you able to take or let whatever you want of Islam ?

There is more ground on evolution than Hadiths. Don't commit the appeal to authority fallacy. I do not claim nor did I ever claim to have full knowledge of anything, that does not disprove my points.

What article are you talking about? Why do you assume my beliefs are based off of one article? My beleifs are based off of a rational judgement of reality.

If any of you can seriously show me that Evolution is not a Quranic concept, then you win. Simple as that. Its a simple challenge that no one succeeded to. When you have verses that show:

1.) Creation had a process of perfection
2.) We grew from the Earth
3.) Mankind came from the descendants of another people
4.) All of mankind was created from an Embryo
5.) Adam was an offspring of something
6.) Creation from basic earth compounds gradually turning into more advanced forms (sexual reproduction) and gets even more advanced to achieve consciousness
7.) We were created into stages
8.)Every animal is created out of water
9.) Allah BEGINS creation
10.) Mankind was a successor to Earth
11.) Allah will substitute us with a creation by a change of form (76:28)
12.) Jesus and Adam were created in the same manner! (Jesus was born in a womb)
13.) All of mankind was created from a sperm drop.

VERY compelling verses...

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Fantasy my foot ! An insult to me is something I can tolerate , but insulting the companions and entire nations is unforgivable !

Where did I insult you or the companions. We must make it clear when I insult someone's beliefs, I am not insulting them, but their beliefs.

Fantasy your foot? So you believe the Earth is flat, The sun travels around the Earth, the stars are literally in the sky, there are 7 glass domes above us, drinking animal urine will cure you, creation was a magical instant etc.?

None of those are Quranic concepts. The Quran does allude to those concepts, but it does so so it doesn't contradict our beleifs as well.

You completely disregarded my argument that the Quran supports 7th century belief WITHOUT contradicting and supporting our beliefs. .

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The verse is talking about those whose hearts are astray . And if we compare between those who lived right after the prophet and some nobody who sticks his nose in whatever he thinks he can , well , you'd be the one astray.

Yes, and the verse also is talking about how verses in the Quran are not meant to be understood by everyone, even the companions themselves. This further alludes to my point. Secondly, am I the one astray who is not making excuses about Quranic verses and reading them as they are? I don't think so. I don't make excuses, the verses speak for themselves.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wanted to add one more verse to you directory of information. Take a look at this:

Quran 35:11 And Allah did create you from dust; then from a sperm-drop; then He made you in pairs

Really judge this verse, it has a VERY important meaning.

Allah created us from dust (something simple and lifeless) THEN from a sperm drop THEN made you in pairs.

You believe that Allah made us in pairs BEFORE sexual reproduction. You believe that Allah created Adam and Eve (a pair) and then we came from their nutfah--you used this to deny how verse 32:7-9 is in support of evolution. But this verse here just killed your belief and your refutation to 32:7-9. AFTER the creation of nutfah, we were made in pairs, not before. So that means that Adam and eve (a pair/mates) were created from/after nutfah. Ultimately, Adam and eve were created from and after the creation of nutfah. And whoever their parents are, if Adam and eve were the first humans to take on our form, then their parents are not like them or us.

Time to wake up, brother. Be honest with me, be honest with yourself, be honest with Allah. The Quran is clear as day!

 May Allah (the most ingenious creator and evolver) guide us all to truth.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 10:20:47 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2013, 07:21:00 PM »
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I don't think the verses brought by the supporters of "Adam's parents theory in the Quran" should be included under "mutashabihat" their meaning is very clear ,just the supporters read so much in between the lines...

next post inshallah another visit to the verses ...

Adam's parent's theory should be very clear int he Quran in my opinion (when you don't make excuses about them and read them for what they are). But there are many verses which are allegorical and this one may be as well. Either way, the Quran is not meant to be known entirely by everyone and only Allah truly means their true interpreations
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 08:00:18 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline abdullah

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2013, 11:11:32 PM »
Assalamualykum brother
Based on the verses you have shown 1) I believe that evolution of humans does not contradict the Qur'an 2) I also don't believe that evolution is necessary to interpret the verses you selected.
Alright throwing doubt over the ahadith is one thing, but to throw doubt over the sunnah is tantamount to rejecting the Qur'an for two reasons. 1) The Sunnah just like Qur'an has been passed on from generation to generation  with too much people passing it on for any falsehood to enter it. 2) It would only be logical to assume that Allah protected the sunnah because that is how we practice the religion.

Here are some of the arguments I found against evolution.

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/07/what_are_the_to_1062011.html

Visit the link above I realized after I posted the article it is hard to read.


Lack of a viable mechanism for producing high levels of complex and specified information. Related to this are problems with the Darwinian mechanism producing irreducibly complex features, and the problems of non-functional or deleterious intermediate stages. (For details see: "The NCSE, Judge Jones, and Bluffs About the Origin of New Functional Genetic Information," "Do Car Engines Run on Lugnuts? A Response to Ken Miller & Judge Jones's Straw Tests of Irreducible Complexity for the Bacterial Flagellum," "Opening Darwin's Black Box," or "Can Random Mutations Create New Complex Features? A Response to TalkOrigins"); The failure of the fossil record to provide support for Darwinian evolution. (For details, see "Punctuated Equilibrium and Patterns from the Fossil Record" or "Intelligent Design Has Scientific Merit in Paleontology"); The failure of molecular biology to provide evidence for a grand "tree of life." (For details, see: "A Primer on the Tree of Life"); Natural selection is an extremely inefficient method of spreading traits in populations unless a trait has an extremely high selection coefficient; The problem that convergent evolution appears rampant -- at both the genetic and morphological levels, even though under Darwinian theory this is highly unlikely. (For details, see "Convergent Genetic Evolution: 'Surprising' Under Unguided Evolution, Expected Under Intelligent Design" and "Dolphins and Porpoises and...Bats? Oh My! Evolution's Convergence Problem"); The failure of chemistry to explain the origin of the genetic code. (For details, see "The origin of life remains a mystery" or "Problems with the Natural Chemical 'Origin of Life'"); The failure of developmental biology to explain why vertebrate embryos diverge from the beginning of development. (For details, see: "Evolving views of embryology," "A Reply to Carl Zimmer on Embryology and Developmental Biology," "Current Textbooks Misuse Embryology to Argue for Evolution"); The failure of neo-Darwinian evolution to explain the biogeographical distribution of many species. (For details, see "Sea Monkey Hypotheses Refute the NCSE's Biogeography Objections to Explore Evolution" or "Sea Monkeys Are the Tip of the Iceberg: More Biogeographical Conundrums for Neo-Darwinism"); A long history of inaccurate predictions inspired by neo-Darwinism regarding vestigial organs or so-called "junk" DNA. (For details, ] see: "Intelligent Design and the Death of the 'Junk-DNA' Neo-Darwinian Paradigm," "The Latest Proof of Evolution: The Appendix Has No Important Function," or "Does Darrel Falk's Junk DNA Argument for Common Descent Commit 'One of the Biggest Mistakes in the History of Molecular Biology'?); Humans show many behavioral and cognitive traits and abilities that offer no apparent survival advantage (e.g. music, art, religion, ability to ponder the nature of the universe). - See more at: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/07/what_are_the_to_1062011.html#sthash.xuOQsK76.dpuf
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 11:16:23 PM by abdullah »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2013, 09:40:18 AM »
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Allah chose Adam from the rest of mankind, YES! You finally get it!
Who did Allah choose Adam over? The other creations that existed with Adam.
Who did Allah choose Noah over? The other humans that existed with Noah.
Who did Allah choose the family of Abraham over? The other humans that existed with Abraham.
Notice verse 2:30; (Quran 2:30) And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority.
 
Again , don't put words in my mouth . Allah favored them on the rest of "عالمين" = Worlds of humans and Jins and angels ... etc . No evolution at all . And then :

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Who was Adam succeeded over in EARTH? Other animals.
And you talk about wishful thinking ? The simple answer is that there were other creatures on Earth before humans . Does it in any way that man came from animals ? No . And do Jins ring any bell ?

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Next, the verse does not say they are descendants from each other, that's what you want it to read.
Great ! More acrobatic explanations !

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IF you are telling me that your Arabic is better than the Quranic scholars, you got another thing coming.
So now scholars are to be taken for evidence ? Ok Mr. evasive , the entire body of scholars from the beginning of Islam said nothing about this myth . Case closed . And EVEN this page you brought says nothing about this religion you're so desperate to force on Islam . Firstly , saying that these are descendants of each other doesn't have to include father Adam but only his offspring . That's a matter of language and logic . Moreover , if we were to take it as literal ascendancy of blood and flesh then it would contradict this one .
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Tawbah 67 The hypocrites, both men and women, proceed one from another
But rather , they are proceeding of each other in delivering the message of God .

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I haven't abandoned anything. A rationally honest person cannot accept hadiths as the word of the prophet. Sorry, I consider myself intellectually honest.
And I consider you an enemy of Islam . It seems that you wouldn't trust Hadith until your Gods of west say that its science is the best through history . And to surprise you more , they did :
http://abohobelah.blogspot.com/2012/06/blog-post_7750.html

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Considering the Quran, you HAVE to say that Adam was created in Earth. I don't care what part of Earth or 'paradise' on Earth. That is just an excuse on your part to justify the invalid hadith.
Until you explain it's just another empty claim of yours the same as every point you have said . And I can see that you're starting to lose it .

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Where does the Quran say sand, then mud then clay? 
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Rahman (13) He created man of clay like the potter's,
And you know where mud is mentioned .

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You don't understand the logic here. YES, God perfected what he created. YES. What does that mean? That creation had a process of perfection. This is too much excuse making on your part to deny reality.
Then go back to high school and study logic of math and language . Another thing is , according to your acrobatic explanations everything should have evolved ! Didn't God create rocks ? Then they must have been different things before ? Didn't God create Gold ? Then it must have been silver according to your logic !

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If it meant Adam (as you agree with): Then Adam would have been created AFTER sexual reproduction.
So far , the problem is either that you lack knowledge of Arabic or that you're stubborn to this ideology . How on earth do you understand that "Then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid" mean that the first cell - And it says "Human"- formed reproductive organs , with three question and exclamation marks ???!!! This question of mine answers this one of yours
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You also refused to even accept the 3rd possibility
3-It meant mankind has went through a process of perfection. After the BEGINNING of the process, he created sexual reproduction (with semen) and after that process, he fashioned us and given us consciousness.
This probability is not to be taken because it contradicts with Sunnah AND the basics of Arabic grammar !

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I'm going to quote Yusif Ali's commentary (the one I have available at hand): "
Man is asked to contemplate his own humble beginning. His material body (apart from life) is a piece of earth or clay, which is another term for primeval matter.Matter is therefore the first stage, but even matter was not self-created. It was created by Allah."
"Then comes life and the reproduction of life."
After fertilization of ovum by the sperm, an individual life comes into existence, and it is gradually fashioned into shape, its limbs are formed; its animal life begins to function; all the beautiful adaptations come into play.
The fourth stage here mentioned is that of distinctive Man, into whom Allah's spirit is breathed. Then he rises higher than animals.
^Do you understand now. LIfe came from Matter, which then sexual reproduction occurred, which then allowed mankind to be gradually fashioned into shape. The Animal gets created, and the fourth stages is what makes Animals different from humans, humans gain higher consciousness.

OK , OK . First thing first , quoting someone means nothing . YOU'RE the one who calls Hadith 7th century fantasies and lack proper manner when talking about it . So bringing the sayings of a man that isn't even a scolar of Hadith means nothing . That's first . Secondly , HOW ON EARTH DID YOU COME UP WITH THIS MEANING FROM HIS WORDS ??!! The man says that man is created of matter that isn't alive . Then when a soul is poured into him he is given consciousness which differs him from animals . I should bring aspirin with me ! This headache is unbearable !

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I'm sorry brother, the evidence here is too overwhelming!
Overwhelm my foot ! If it's really as you think it is then come prove it to us where I told you . Have some courage and read something that doesn't match what you were forced to learn in school .

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I'm going to disregard personal attacks (as if they disprove my arguments)
OK , what kind of a farce is this ? Saying you're ignorant of Arabic and logic AFTER proving it is a personal attack ?

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Why do the verses have different meanings from the supposed sayings of the prophet? Because they are not sayings of the prophet. Simple and pure I've been looking at hadiths and their science for a quite a while now, no rational person can seriously say they are really what the prophet said, uncorrupted--even if it was unintentional.
You know what ? Among the types of people I despise the most are the arrogant and and ignorant . So do you have an idea of how much I facepalm when you gathered both ? Already , the last conversation about Hadith showed your true degree in it . Enough said .

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And Adam was proportioned AFTER sexual reproduction as well. Still proves my point on evolution.
I already demonstrated that your explanation of it as forming of sexual reproductive organs is out of the box .

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I am using a word-for-word multiple translator site that is very authoritative. No longer will that argument of yours have any place.
Authorized my foot !!! You shamelessly insult Hadith and call it corrupted and now you talk about authorization ?! "If you have no shame then do as you please" !

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Evolution perfects creation. No contradiction here.
It DOES contradicts everything . Quran says that God created everything perfect .

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The support of evolution comes after when it says that AFTER our ability to make a reproductive liquid, we were ALL proportioend and given consciousness (including Adam, other verses say Adam was proportioned and given consciousness) This verse says that Adam (and consequently you) was proportioned and given consciousnesses AFTER sexual reproduction's formation.
So that means that Adam himself was in a womb!
Already explained . Take a course and come back .

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Adam was also created from nutfah.
No comment . If you want to throw sanity and logic out of the window then I would have left you be . But to ignore Quran and Sunnah then that's the red line !

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and judge by what I said which is nothing more than a literal interpretation of the Quran and its application to reality. No excuses made.
Moreover , literal my foot ! No Arabic or English or logic ?!

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Personally, I don't think you will ever understand what science is unless you study it. I'm not going to put this one against you.
Keep that personal nonsense to yourself . I won't be judge by someone so ignorant of Quran and Hadith that he doesn't know the first thing about them as proven before .

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If you want to believe the Chinese whispers over the Quran, its your choice. Allah is the judge.
After all of this , even saying something censored is being nice you . If you can't clean your filthy mouth , don't try to talk like someone civilized .

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I'm telling you that you are ignorant and you still to fallacious beliefs rather than the Quranic truth. If you seek truth, find truth. Not lies and self-deception and excuse making.
Someone seems to have lost his cool edge .

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Does the fact that scholars spent years gathering hadiths in any way tell you that they are uncorrupted? No. Do you know how they judge hadiths as to whether they are authentic or not? If the speakers had good Character.
My uncle told me that his friend said that his friend said that his cousin said that his great grandfather said that his uncle said that the prophet said...
Sorry bro, not something a logical person can accept.
Only a madman would compare this method to Hadith . Already explained . And yes , I happen to know a small fragment of the science of Hadith . The difference is that I'm not ignorant like someone .

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Give me a specific argument, please. Evolution is fact and you need to be very well-understanding of it. There is a reason why nearly all scientists accept it.
Fact my foot !
http://antishobhat.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_11.html

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Its not based on blind belief, like hadith.
That's it ! Insulting me is something , insulting Islam is another !!!! If you coward have a shred of shame or dignity then come debate :
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/forum.php

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Personal attacks will yet again be ignored. I don't attack you, so its common courtesy not to attack me. Disprove my points rather than attack me.
What personal attacks ? You attacked Islam and I redirected your poisonous arrows at you .

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So many excuses, brother,
I am NOT a brother of an enemy of Islam . Flat out .

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Secondly you made a circular reasoning fallacy that atheists make. The Quran cannot support science or evolution because it is an old book not from God. Then they say the Quran is not from God because it is an old book that doesn't support evolution. Don't sink to their level
Nobody sank to their level but you . And lying about me and saying something I didn't say shows that either you're failing to understand or that you're a hypocrite . You call whatever you don't like as 7th century fantasy . If we tell you that no scholar said what you say you brag "I only follow Quran" and Quran is innocent of you . But now , you bring me sayings of some guys on internet - And they don't even support you ! - and take them as gospels !

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After all this displaying of excuse making, personal attacks and refusing to address why I say you are changing the meanings of verses--I have to make the conclusion that you know that you are making excuses to support your old-age factually incorrect beliefs.
For everyone reading : Don't mind if I say that this man is retarded . I address every single point he makes and he simply shoves them off and then goes "Why do you twist the meaning ?" while he AWFULLY fails to show how come his retarded interruptions have a ground on either Quran or Hadith or logic or Arabic OR English !

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What article are you talking about? Why do you assume my beliefs are based off of one article? My beleifs are based off of a rational judgement of reality.
As you have proved , your beliefs are based on irrational twisted explanations which Satan wouldn't have thought of . And I know your type . The common thing between you is arrogance thinking that you're so special because you came up with something different . No matter how much one explains or shows you how wrong you are , you still repeat like parrots .

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Where did I insult you or the companions. We must make it clear when I insult someone's beliefs, I am not insulting them, but their beliefs.
I wouldn't be surprised if you were actually an Atheist because this is the same sadistic foul logic of theirs . OK then , I say that your mother is [Peep] . According to your lack of upbringing , you shouldn't be offended . If you - who don't mind insulting Islam - are a bunch of sissies then that is your own goddamn business !

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drinking animal urine will cure you,
As I said , your beliefs are based on personal "I don't like it" thinking . Read a little and get more educated
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/showthread.php?49346-%C7%E1%D1%CF-%C7%E1%DA%E1%E3%ED-%D6%CF-%DF%E1-%E3%E4%DF%D1-%E1%CD%CF%ED%CB-%C8%E6%E1-%C7%E1%C5%C8%E1-!!-quot-%D0%ED%E1-%DA%E1%EC-%E3%E6%D6%E6%DA-%D4%DD%C7%C1-%C7%E1%CE%C8%E1-quot

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Yes, and the verse also is talking about how verses in the Quran are not meant to be understood by everyone, even the companions themselves.
OH ! And a nobody thinks he can understand what the prophet and his companions didn't ?!

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Time to wake up, brother. Be honest with me, be honest with yourself, be honest with Allah. The Quran is clear as day!
Nah , I think it's time for you to wake up from drinking too much alcohol .

In the end , if you're so desperate to prove that you're an evolving animal then so be it . We're humans and God says "We have certainly created man in the best of stature;" so we take no pride in being called animals .
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 12:03:42 PM by Black Muslim »

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2013, 11:39:51 AM »
Assalamualykum.


 Brother it seems like this thread is creating divisions among us. Brothers, I urge upon all of you to stop arguing with each other. A critical time is going on for the Muslims. So, instead of fighting and arguing with each other, we should remain united.  Allah said in the Quran:


"And all of you, catch hold of Allah's rope firmly. Do not be separated from each other''(Surah Al-Imran:103)


 Lets close this thread here. And be friends again.

And brother mclinkin as I have advised you earlier, please pray 2 Ra'kat Nafl salah , close your eyes and analyze the entire fact again. May be by the grace of Allah you will reach a conclusion.

 And brother, I think no one can give any proper solution to this problem, because still we couldn't gain sufficient knowledge about Quran or Science. So, instead of going for any deep interpretations lets just have faith in the Verses concerning creation of the Human beings. Your interpretation might be true or might not be. Allah knows the best.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 01:05:35 PM by FARHAN_UDDIN »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2013, 01:01:48 PM »
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Brother it seems like this thread is creating division among us. Brothers, I urge upon all of you to stop arguing with each other.
Say that to the one insulting Islam . And keep in mind that truth comes before everything even the link of flesh and blood between two siblings . Abandoning Hadith in case you don't know means abandoning Islam in total . Let me ask : If this method is really untrusted and the best way to keep history then what is ? If we say this method is unreliable or something then why not say that Quran is also corrupted because we can't make sure that it was passed the same through history ? Why not say that there was never a man called Muhammad ? How can we know that there ever was ? It could be a legend forged by someone . Why not say that all history we have is corrupted ? If this perfect method isn't reliable then how can I be sure that there was a world war one or two ? Maybe it's a legend forged by someone . Why can't the ones after us say that there was never a war in Syria or anywhere and that they are just legends ? You see ? If we take that twisted track of mind , we'll end up abandoning the entire history and Islam . And I'd like to know how do the ones denying Hadith practice any kind of worship if they don't follow Sunnah ! How many prayers do they pray ? How do they perform Haj ? Truth is , they don't do a thing at all . And that's what one of them said . He said that fasting in other than Ramadan is a fable ! That the Friday prayer is a fable ! And so on ! All because he denies the sayings of the prophet peace upon him . Did you see what this road leads to ? And that's why they show up and say that Jews and Christians will enter paradise if they remain on their religion ! That's why they show up and call some - or all - the companions hypocrites and infidels ! That's why they say one can commit adultery because Islam doesn't restrict freedom !

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2013, 01:29:14 PM »
Assalamualykum.

Brother Black Muslim, I agree with you. Yes without the Sunnah its not possible for us to knowthe process of worshiping Allah. And I think, I read somewhere that some hadiths were written during the lifetime of Muhammad(pbuh). If I get the link to that article, I'll post it on the forum. Inshallah.


 
 Its true that no other book can be 100% authentic except The Quran. But Sahih hadiths can be 70 to 80% authentic.


Allah knows the Best.

Take Care.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 01:52:42 PM by FARHAN_UDDIN »

Offline abdullah

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2013, 12:31:00 AM »