Author Topic: I need your opinion please!  (Read 58041 times)

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Offline Black Muslim

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2013, 07:38:28 AM »
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Its true that no other book can be 100% authentic except The Quran. But Sahih hadiths can be 70 to 80% authentic.
It depends on the chain of this Hadith and other things about it . First of all , one must understand that when a scholar calls his book "Sahih" then that's according to his knowledge . But when nations of scholars from Spain of the far west to near India from the east search through all these sayings , there is no way one can say they all cooperated to corrupt them ! And even the authorized of Bukhari was criticized and searched through and there were weak unauthorized sayings in it . Does it mean we should say everything else is unauthorized ? No . People should understand that we don't say the book of Bukhari is authorized because it was written by Bukhari . No , it is authorized because it was the most strictly gathered book among all with most accuracy .

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Respect each other!!!
If the insult was about me , I wouldn't have been this angry . But it was an insult to Islam itself by insulting Hadith which is Sunnah .

Offline abdullah

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2013, 08:06:13 PM »
salam
Hadith and Sunnah are two different concepts. The Sunnah is more reliable than ahadith. I am not saying this to throw doubt over the ahadith, but only to show that the sunnahs transmision is more reliable than the ahadith transmission

http://www.understanding-islam.com/articles/sources-of-islam/hadith-and-sunnah-two-different-concepts-186

The history of Ahadith and their compilation is a long and tedious investigative process far too grand to be encapsulated within the short pages of this article.  Therefore the attempt will be to try to clarify misunderstood concepts and to summarize the understanding of Sunnah and Ahadith better.

The terms Sunnah and Hadith have been, wrongly, amalgamated.  Typically when one or the other word is being referenced, its true meaning is taken for granted as if it is inseparable from the other word.  This has not only caused confusion, but has created this ideology that one depends on the other in order to complete what the Qur'an has not mentioned in regards to religion.  This is a fallacious presumption.  In order for the reader to appreciate the difference and their affects, a thorough study of the subject should be undertaken.  Nevertheless, this article shall be an attempt to clarify the terms and their functions in a clear and simple manner.

In trying to analyze Ahadith a comprehensible and simple definition must be arrived at.  In the simplest of definitions a Hadith is a reported tradition.  Yet, in Islamic terms its scope is narrowed to very sensitive terminology affecting the overall scheme of Islamic doctrine.  Hadith, as defined by Understanding Islam, is a narration of the words or acts of the Prophet, as perceived and transmitted by one or more persons who heard or saw the Prophet saying or performing these acts.  These attributed perceptions to the Prophet are critical in developing the clear distinction of Sunnah from Hadith.  The reader may examine this by a short example:

A teacher teaches with words and actions in a classroom setting.  Students A, B, C, learn from this teacher but they were not allowed to write anything down.  The teacher is out of the picture yet the students pass on the teacher's material to the next generation of students (D, E, F, G, H, I).  Thereafter the classroom size grows and A, B, C no longer are around to teach so D, E, F, G, H, I teach the next set of students which is growing rapidly.  The cycle of students becoming teachers developed through the generations.  However, new ideas began to spring up and were made out to be of the original teaching.  So, another student (X) decides to take the initiative to gather all the teaching of words and action to verify and compile them for the masses.

The above narration is a crude illustration of the process of how Ahadiths were compiled.  Although this magnificent feat was achieved, many potential problems arose along with the compilation of these traditions.  Other than the most obvious problems that one may observe there are several that are not as easily decipherable.  For example, the context and setting of many Ahadith are missing.  The Prophet may have well passed an injunction on something but the very important factors of the framework are not clearly understood.  The lack of background information may throw the entire situation into confusion.  Even if those who have transferred the information do it to their best ability, there are still potential dangers.  The traditions as received and understood by one or more persons is important.  The meaning that each individual has placed upon the words may "color" the transmission.  A word may be left out or replaced.  If this were not the case the great compilers would not have had to sift through hundreds of thousands of Ahadith.  Some authentic ones may have been discarded while some not so authentic ones may have been compiled.  Ahadith, though the science of their collection is far more sophisticated, is basically a written history of events.  This in no way belittles the compilers or the Ahadith themselves nor the subjects they refer to but rather puts them in perspective to their nature and their importance in Islam.

The Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad was established during his life for all to follow and to pass on for generations.  The Sunnah is the second primary source of the doctrine of Islam, the Qur'an being the first. They go hand in hand to complete the beliefs and practices all Muslims are to follow.  However, the question arises, "what is Sunnah?"  The Sunnah is a set of practices that the Prophet taught the Muslims to follow.  For twenty-three years, five times a day, he showed them how to purify themselves for payer (ablution, Wudu).  For the same amount of years and the same number of times a day, he showed them how to pray.  He showed them to eat with their right hands, and invoke God's name and blessings upon the food and to thank God when finished.  For a number of years he taught them to perform the pilgrimage (Hajj) and all its details and many other things that Muslims do now as if it is second nature.  It was not what he ate or how he ate, nor was it what he dressed in or what he preferred that became Sunnah.  It was the belief and conviction in the One God that became manifest in these practices which is the Sunnah.  It was a code of practice limited to what God has ordained for humankind for all time.  These set of practices were passed on through generations without the problems faced by Ahadith.  There is no perception problem, or lack of context placement.  There is not an individual that may mislead (whether purposefully or innocently) the rest of the chain from himself on.  There is no confusing a certain practice as that taught by the Prophet with that taught by someone else.  The Prophet was teaching the Sunnah of Islam to multitudes of people observing.  It may have begun with ten who observed, then a hundred who followed, then thousands all observing the same practice over and over again, directly from the Prophet.  This has remained a phenomenon to this day.  A man praying in the United States of America does just the same as one who prays in Pakistan, thus following the very prescribed practice of the Messenger of God.  To illustrate better the writer shall share a personal story.

I had always loved religion from the time when I was a child.  It just fascinated me.  I used to watch several of my family members pray and wanted to learn from them.  My grandfather one day decided to take me to the local Mosque.  I must have been only 3 or 4 years old at the time.  He showed me how prepare for prayer and how to perform the ablution.  We walked across the street and he proceeded to tell me to just follow what everyone else is doing.  He said, in time, I would get better and the more we went together the more I would learn.  When we got to the Mosque we took off our shoes to sit and listen to the imam.  Then prayer began and I tried to follow by watching from the corner of my eyes, sometimes turning my head to see better what was going on.  When we were finished we went home and my grandfather told me he was going to teach me a chapter of the Qur'an called the Opening (Al Fatiha).  I became excited and agreed.  So we began and I kept repeating the words over and over and over again.  My grandfather then lay down and closed his eyes and said, "repeat!"  So, I kept on going.  Every time I made the slightest error he would correct me with the right words.  He fell asleep and I too may have fallen asleep in the middle of reciting the words.  My grandfather was an illiterate man and so was his father and his father's father and so on.  They were religious and they passed down the religion to my father who is highly educated and in turn was taught to us.

The narrative is not an attempt to achieve an emotional response.  It is an attempt at illustrating how the religion of Islam is passed on.  Most Muslims learn their religion by following someone.  By learning through example.  The initial introduction of Islam to the generations of Muslims regards the passing on of the beliefs in the Qur'an and the practice of Sunnah.  All other sources are almost always something pursued later on in life.  This is a mere fact of history.

Sunnah and Hadith, therefore, are completely two different elements within Islamic doctrine.  Sunnah was initiated by the Prophet for his Ummah to follow, while the latter, Hadith, was initiated by great men who wanted to preserve information about the events and incidents in the Prophet's life.  It is a fact of history that the Prophet discouraged the recording any of his words so that they may not be confused with the transmission of the Qur'an, which was the primary mission of the Prophet.  Had the Prophet felt that an essential part of his teachings would be lost if all Hadiths were not recorded then surely he would have ordered them to be written down by official scribes, just as there were official scribes of the Qur'an.  It is obvious that the Prophet would then have taken some preparatory action to develop these Hadiths under his direct supervision.  However, this is not what happened; the entire scheme of bringing Islam to the world was perfectly conveyed through the two primary sources of Islam, the Qur'an and Sunnah.  To say otherwise would be tantamount to claiming that the Prophet failed to complete the doctrine as was revealed to him by God.

There are some, with slanderous intentions, who charge that those outside the realm of Islam concoct these explanations but they fail to provide any such evidence.  They have elevated Ahadith, by invoking the term Sahih, to the status of the Qur'an and make it seem as if Islam is dysfunctional without these traditions.  That is the same stance the Jewish tribes took when they developed their Talmud along with other books and many Christians with their churches.  It is the responsibility of the Muslim Ummah to preserve both primary sources of Islam, the Qur'an and Sunnah, and maintain their religion as was transmitted by the Prophet through the generations.

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2013, 05:38:54 AM »
Hold it one second , pal . OK , I know that Hadith is something told or said by someone . Still , in conception , Hadith means something told about the prophet Muhammad , the companions , the followers after companions and followers of followers . OK ? And as I said before , there's a whole science for it to make sure no one fabricates or makes lies about it . So , if you want to look at it in detail , Hadith is Sunnah if it's about the prophet peace upon him and mentions something such as an act by him or an order , OK ?


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The above narration is a crude illustration of the process of how Ahadiths were compiled.
No offense but , indeed , this is a crude and wrong illustration of Hadith . Just to show so , you need to know that prophet Muhammad peace upon him DID allow writing Hadith after there was no danger of mistaking it for Quran or the other way around . So this example is invalid .
It seems that no matter how I explain some people are  persistent to make Hadith the same as telling something to someone and therefore it MUST be corrupted . If you ask what evidence they have that it has been corrupted , no answer . The funny thing is that they don't have the slightest idea that a load of fabricated and forged sayings about the prophet and companions and others were exposed by this science and whole books were made for this matter alone . For example , Al-Bukhari didn't only write the authorized book which we know , he had a book named "The weak chain" in which he mentions the weak narrations and forged ones . So PLEASE , read a little about this science before you jump to conclusion that Hadith is corrupted !

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The Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad was established during his life for all to follow and to pass on for generations.  The Sunnah is the second primary source of the doctrine of Islam, the Qur'an being the first. They go hand in hand to complete the beliefs and practices all Muslims are to follow.  However, the question arises, "what is Sunnah?"  The Sunnah is a set of practices that the Prophet taught the Muslims to follow.  For twenty-three years, five times a day, he showed them how to purify themselves for payer (ablution, Wudu).  For the same amount of years and the same number of times a day, he showed them how to pray.  He showed them to eat with their right hands, and invoke God's name and blessings upon the food and to thank God when finished.  For a number of years he taught them to perform the pilgrimage (Hajj) and all its details and many other things that Muslims do now as if it is second nature.  It was not what he ate or how he ate, nor was it what he dressed in or what he preferred that became Sunnah.  It was the belief and conviction in the One God that became manifest in these practices which is the Sunnah.  It was a code of practice limited to what God has ordained for humankind for all time.  These set of practices were passed on through generations without the problems faced by Ahadith.
Uh-huh . And how come you knew that he ever did such things ? No , how come you knew there was ever a man named Muhammad ? If that wasn't through Hadith and history , then how ?

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There is no perception problem, or lack of context placement.  There is not an individual that may mislead (whether purposefully or innocently) the rest of the chain from himself on.  There is no confusing a certain practice as that taught by the Prophet with that taught by someone else.  The Prophet was teaching the Sunnah of Islam to multitudes of people observing.  It may have begun with ten who observed, then a hundred who followed, then thousands all observing the same practice over and over again, directly from the Prophet.  This has remained a phenomenon to this day.
And what's your evidence ? With the same logic you use to accuse Hadith of corruption I can say that someone forged new ways of worship or erased some . The problem is that you compare a whole strict science which looks in every single detail and doesn't allow a single letter to be changed without noticing to a game of "Your telephone is broken" !

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The narrative is not an attempt to achieve an emotional response.  It is an attempt at illustrating how the religion of Islam is passed on.  Most Muslims learn their religion by following someone.  By learning through example.  The initial introduction of Islam to the generations of Muslims regards the passing on of the beliefs in the Qur'an and the practice of Sunnah.  All other sources are almost always something pursued later on in life.  This is a mere fact of history.
Reality says that this is wrong . There are Muslims who drink in Ramadan after the time of Fajr arrives . Why's that ? Because they believe it is OK to do so until Athan is over . Why's that ? Because they saw their parents do it , and their parents saw that from their parents and so on . So , does that mean this act is OK ?

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Sunnah and Hadith, therefore, are completely two different elements within Islamic doctrine.  Sunnah was initiated by the Prophet for his Ummah to follow, while the latter, Hadith, was initiated by great men who wanted to preserve information about the events and incidents in the Prophet's life.  It is a fact of history that the Prophet discouraged the recording any of his words so that they may not be confused with the transmission of the Qur'an, which was the primary mission of the Prophet.  Had the Prophet felt that an essential part of his teachings would be lost if all Hadiths were not recorded then surely he would have ordered them to be written down by official scribes, just as there were official scribes of the Qur'an.  It is obvious that the Prophet would then have taken some preparatory action to develop these Hadiths under his direct supervision.  However, this is not what happened; the entire scheme of bringing Islam to the world was perfectly conveyed through the two primary sources of Islam, the Qur'an and Sunnah.  To say otherwise would be tantamount to claiming that the Prophet failed to complete the doctrine as was revealed to him by God.
I find a huge misunderstanding of conceptions here . In short , Hadith was ordered to be written by the prophet himself . Hadith was written ever since he was alive . Hadith is the words of the prophet himself . And to make sure no one would corrupt it and add things to it , the science of Hadith was used . So , Hadith is the way to know Sunnah if you really want to make them completely different things .

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There are some, with slanderous intentions, who charge that those outside the realm of Islam concoct these explanations but they fail to provide any such evidence.  They have elevated Ahadith, by invoking the term Sahih, to the status of the Qur'an and make it seem as if Islam is dysfunctional without these traditions.  That is the same stance the Jewish tribes took when they developed their Talmud along with other books and many Christians with their churches.  It is the responsibility of the Muslim Ummah to preserve both primary sources of Islam, the Qur'an and Sunnah, and maintain their religion as was transmitted by the Prophet through the generations.
Who said so ?! Where do you get these ideas from ?! We said Hadith - the way to know Sunnah - is the second source of teachings in Islam . Nobody says that it comes in the same statue as Quran ! And again , DON'T COMPARE HADITH TO ACTS OF JEWS AND CHRISTIANS ! I find it useless to repeat that Hadith isn't deemed authorized unless it has the conditions of being right . And when you tell the ones accusing Hadith of corruption to read a little bit about its must basic rules , they don't . So , if you don't know the thing , how can you attack it ?

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2013, 10:40:09 PM »
Hello brother black muslim, i'm going to avoid as much of the rhetoric as I can and answer you questions concisely and quickly. I will not put any rheotric nor insults. I will completely avoid the hadith story. Do not present hadiths to me. If you want to reach a conclusion, then just say that the Quran supports the idea of gradual change to the creation of mankind--but hadiths do not. If you want to be rational and honest, you would say that.

1.) Quran 2:30 is talking about something that mankind succeeded from and had authority over on EARTH. Jinn do not live on earth, they live in the universe as well. Do we have authority over them? of course not, they could posses us, they have free will and they could be Muslim as well. If you notice the jinn are also still here. Notice how in the verse the angels KNEW that we (mankind) would cause corruption on the Earth. How did they know? Because there were creatures like us who have caused such corruption. This verse is showing that there were creatures on the Earth and we came after them to rule over them. That is all it is saying. But it uses the word successive authority in a sense that we are succeeding them and ruling over them. This HAS to be Animals. Apply this verse to other verses and you would see that we came from them and ruled over them. 

2.) Quran 9:67 says nothing of offspring. It is saying that The hypocrite men and women are alike in their hypocrisy. In fact this would actually prove my point and disprove yours. Apply this to Quran 3:33-34. Adam, Noah, Abraham are alike in that they are descendants.

3.) The Quran says that Adam was created on Earth, the hadith your presented contradicted that. That is all we are going to say.

4.)
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d study logic of math and language . Another thing is , according to your acrobatic explanations everything should have evolved ! Didn't God create rocks ? Then they must have been different things before ? Didn't God create Gold ? Then it must have been silver according to your logic !
YES!! Everything evolved. Rocks were not always rocks. A silver atom was not always a silver atom. It had a process of its creation. Just like mankind.

5.) The verse that completely refutes your points is this. This is all I have to post. You can be as dishonest as you want. Adam came from Nutfah (semen). Just like you and I. This would also prove what I said about Quran 32:7-9.

Quran 35:11 And Allah did create you from dust; then from a sperm-drop; then He made you in pairs

Really judge this verse, it has a VERY important meaning.

Allah created us from dust (something simple and lifeless) THEN from a sperm drop THEN made you in pairs.

So having this verse in mind, lets look at Quran 32:7. After Allah BEGAN the creation of mankind, he made the descendants from an ejected fluid and THEN he proportioned Adam into this form and consciousness.

You believe that Allah made us in pairs BEFORE sexual reproduction. You believe that Allah created Adam and Eve (a pair) and then we came from their nutfah--you used this to deny how verse 32:7-9 is in support of evolution. But this verse here just killed your belief and your refutation to 32:7-9. AFTER the creation of nutfah, we were made in pairs, not before. So that means that Adam and eve (a pair/mates) were created from/after nutfah. Ultimately, Adam and eve were created from and after the creation of nutfah. And whoever their parents are, if Adam and eve were the first humans to take on our form, then their parents are not like them or us.

6.) The Quran does not say that Allah created everything perfect. It says that he perfected creation. There is a difference. When you perfect (verb) something, it is through a process that achieves said perfection. Evolution does that.

Put all the verses together and you see the basic idea of gradual creation is supported in the Quran. You like to twist verses, I give you their straightforward meaning. That should mean something to you.

7.) Why do you like to twist clear Quranic verses so that they support your hadiths? the Quran says that ALL of mankind was creaed from ALAQ (embryo), that includes Adam. The Quran says that Adam and Eve were created after nutfah was created. The Quran describes Adam as a descendant. But all I get is excuse making and twisting of verses to support hadiths. To me, I don't like this. We know FOR SURE the Quran is absolute truth, we can never know about hadiths. Manipulating the Quran to support hadiths is not something I would say is honorable. 

8.) If I am not your brother in Islam because I don't follow a corrupted tradition, then I ask that you re-evaluate your supposed rationality.

Note: I am not saying the theory of evolution is supported in the Quran in its entirety! That would be dishonest of myself. I am saying that the basic idea of evolution is supported in the Quran as a method of creation. You must accept that based on the evidence you were presented with.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 10:56:31 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2013, 01:40:24 AM »
I will refrain from going further into this and make it short .

1 - The meaning of evolution in Arabic is "Tatawwor تطور" . But what does it mean ? It means moving from one "Tawr" to another . Yes , Allah created us in different forms and stages wither it's father Adam peace upon him or us . That doesn't have a thing to do with this theory which I find difficult to call so .
2 - Evolution , as in a creature becoming another is proven day in and day out to be false . Not even a single fossil was found for in-between stages . Funny thing is , Darwin said that there has to bee endless numbers of such for the theory to be correct . So the supporters of this theory had to either forge fossils through combining bones from different creatures or say that any skeleton of a monkey they found belonged to an ancestor . You have Lucy as an example , they found a barely complete skeleton of a monkey and said "Oh look , it walks on two feet but with difficulty . It must be an ancestor" . But they have no way of knowing the structure or complete form of this creature . Another is the Nebraska man which was nothing more than a tooth - Oh yeah ! A single tooth ! - they found and said looked like something between that of an ape and human . What did it turn out to be ? A tooth of a pig .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyp6EJczFjc&list=PLesE5BCJseGdi1M8Xr73jtAEEHH2kar2-&index=7

You told me to study evolution to know it which is what everyone say whenever they ask them about proof of it . And now I want you to have one look at some different opinions from what is forced on people to believe :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3bxWN6p68k&list=PLesE5BCJseGdi1M8Xr73jtAEEHH2kar2-&index=41
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmKkNPw3QbU&list=PLesE5BCJseGdi1M8Xr73jtAEEHH2kar2-&index=23

Offline abdullah

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #65 on: September 24, 2013, 12:09:54 AM »
salam
Brother, I believe the ahadith, my point was not to throw doubt over the ahadith. it was just to show that the sunnah has been passed on from generation to generation by so many people the chances of it having anything corrupted is 0.0000000000001%. Also, not all the ahadith are the exact words of the prophet himself, rather some contain the general message of what the prophet said.

Furthermore, you can find more scientific proof that evolution is a farce at evolutionnews.com

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #66 on: September 24, 2013, 06:24:06 AM »
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salam
Brother, I believe the ahadith, my point was not to throw doubt over the ahadith. it was just to show that the sunnah has been passed on from generation to generation by so many people the chances of it having anything corrupted is 0.0000000000001%. Also, not all the ahadith are the exact words of the prophet himself, rather some contain the general message of what the prophet said.
Furthermore, you can find more scientific proof that evolution is a farce at evolutionnews.com
Then sorry , I misunderstood . And yes , there are forged sayings among Hadith which are exposed if judged by the science of crediting and discrediting . And yes , not all Hadith is the exact same words of the prophet peace upon him . The companions - Allah be pleased of them - passed the general meaning with no altering . There are types of Hadith which require exact passing down word by word and so it happened . My only point was that abandoning Hadith entirely means abandoning the way in which we understand Quran and Sunnah and history .

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #67 on: September 25, 2013, 11:33:21 AM »
I will refrain from going further into this and make it short .

1 - The meaning of evolution in Arabic is "Tatawwor تطور" . But what does it mean ? It means moving from one "Tawr" to another . Yes , Allah created us in different forms and stages wither it's father Adam peace upon him or us . That doesn't have a thing to do with this theory which I find difficult to call so .


I agree brother, evolution is not mentioned in detail in the Quran and we shouldn't say the Quran supports the entire theory and its mechanisms. The Quran isn't a science book it only hints at natural phenomena. The hints in the Quran are in favor of the creation of  mankind and everything around us in stages and not an instant creation. The basic idea of evolution is supported. 

Further Tatawwor can be applied to Adam also because  QUran 71:14 is talking about all of mankind being created in stages, and a few verses down Quran 71:17 says we grew from the earth a progressive growth.

In my opinion that is enough to show evolution's support in the Quran! But I have offered many verses to support evolution! Not a single verse in the Quran goes against evolution! You must accept the Quran's basic idea of gradual stages in creation.

How about when you have verses that show that Adam himself was made from sperm? And if Adam is the first human to be like us today, then it must logically follow that his father (who donated sperm) was different from him.

[Quran 76:2] Indeed, We created man from a sperm-drop mixture so that We may try him; and We made him hearing and seeing.

^Is Adam a man: Yes
^Is Adam created to be tested or tried: Yes
^Is Adam created to hear and see: Yes.
^Is Adam created to hear and see because he was going to be tried/tested: Yes
^Is Adam capable of getting tried/tested because he was made of a sperm drop: Yes.

All the Quran needs is one verse to support the basic idea of evolution.

Obviously the Quran didn't detail evolution. But it said many times we were created in stages.




 
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 03:51:41 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline abdullah

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #68 on: September 27, 2013, 04:31:54 PM »
Bro Mclinkin why wont you engage in a scientific discussion with us on evolution, if you are so confdent it is true then debate with us on the topic. (:

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2013, 03:41:59 PM »
Bro Mclinkin why wont you engage in a scientific discussion with us on evolution, if you are so confdent it is true then debate with us on the topic. (:

Hey I am actually very willing to engage in a scientific discussion. I do like to see conspiracy theories of how people manipulated things to support evolution. That is just a desperate claim so you could delude yourself evolution is false. I view and write peer-reviewed journals and I don't manipulate and neither do those journals! Science discussion is my favorite type of discussion!

« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 03:52:34 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline abdullah

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #70 on: September 28, 2013, 04:15:02 PM »
Awesome(: we never said that all evolutionists have done it in just that it has happened in the past and that it is possible that their are more cases that have gone unnoticed. Deluded? How about you learn some respect and acknowledge the fact that you might be wrong.

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2013, 06:26:04 AM »
As said , I'll refrain .

Offline abdullah

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2013, 06:06:53 PM »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #73 on: September 30, 2013, 10:48:20 PM »
Bro mclinkin read this
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/09/nature_converge076811.html

Thanks for the article. What I find absolutely ironic is that the Article sites a source that explains the phenomena of convergent evolution happening on a molecular basis, but then the article denies it by adhering to a probabilistic method. The only problem is in the source he posted, it showed how it happens in nature despite the probabilities against. The source it mentioned said that it found evidence of convergent evolution occurring and that it is surprising.

The article is talking about how certain features are related to the existence of a common ancestor - while other apparently similar features tend to develop along similar lines (even though there aren't any near common ancestors from which that trait was passed).

E.g. whales have similar features to fish - even though, they are actually descended from mammals, they developed a lot of features similar to a very different species. Or - that both bats and birds are capable of flight (they both have wings).

This doesn't disprove evolution - in fact - this strengthens it. What it implies is that given certain environmental factors - it is inevitable that certain traits will develop. A creature that spends lots of time in the water will naturally develop similar features even though they come from different lineages. For example, it means that it is natural for creatures of completely different lineages to develop echolocation and an acute sense of smell in environments where vision isn't as important. We should expect to see these features develop even on Alien planets given a similar environment. Remember how Allah said that he created ALL living things from liquid (water)? That means all living beings on all of the universe will exhibit like characteristics to us in that they require water or a liquid and most importantly had the same method of creation as us (evolution). So Aliens would have the same evolutionary steps in their formation just like us! And in an alien swamp, you would be certain that you would find creatures that evolve to resemble our fish (structure for gas circulation, streamlined for speed, utilization of energy etc.) even though they were independent from us (evolutionary speaking). So when you get things that evolve in a similar environment from different lineages with the the same features, that should actually strengthen the theory of evolution (this same thing is probably happening in Alien Earths). I cannot wait until we are able to find Alien life, Insh'allah we will be able to experience it.

I am certain though - that the genetic evidence will disprove this. The genes for creating bat wings are completely different from the genes that create bird wings. The function and appearance may be similar, the genes are not. The strongest evidence for evolution is genetics. So far, we see everything we expect to see if evolution is true by studying genetics.

Further, you must understand that evolution is not a proven theory 100%, you can take that from me or any other biologist. Evolution as a theory is enough to be considered a fact. Its like the Earth being round.  There are minor things that may need to updated, but ALL the evidence we have shows that the basic idea of evolution is a reality. The mechanisms may not be perfect and are subject to change when our molecular technology evolves (no pun intended). And what I find absolutely amazing, is that the Quran has hinted strongly at such concepts 1400 years ago, it is absolutely an amazing and mysterious feature of this amazing book.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 11:01:35 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline abdullah

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Re: I need your opinion please!
« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2013, 11:03:25 PM »
Wait before we proceed on this discussion can i know what your view on evolution are? Do you believe in god guided evolution (Intelligent Design) or darwinian evolution (random mutations etc., etc.)