Author Topic: Allegation against the Muslims  (Read 7074 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Allegation against the Muslims
« on: October 24, 2013, 02:32:23 PM »
Assalamualykum.

 Some critics have claimed that Islam has permitted sexual intercourse with the female slaves. Can I have any explanation or refutation to this?

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Allegation against the Muslims
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2013, 05:35:05 AM »
: Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.(4:24)


 Some people say that the above verse has permitted sexual inter-course with slave women. Okay I'm little confused about the above verse. Is the above verse applicable right now? Because we don't see slave women now. And why is it permitted to have sexual inter-course with slave women without even marriage. Some critics have also claimed that the above verse has proved that Islam is a middle aged religion and is incompatible with the present age. Please Help!!!!

Offline ThatMuslimGuy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Allegation against the Muslims
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2013, 06:29:26 AM »
AsalmuAlaikum,

I dont know much so im not gonna comment. But have you searched Answering Christianity and the other websites with rebuttals?

Offline abdullah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Allegation against the Muslims
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2013, 05:16:44 PM »
Assalamualykum brother
I don't see what the problem is, this ayah only applies to societies that allow slavery. Also, the slave has to agree to it, we can't force a slave into having sexual relations with us. lol, who is bringing up this claim, all other people have sex with whoever they feel like so they shouldn't be talking.

Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Allegation against the Muslims
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2013, 05:38:36 PM »
: Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.(4:24)


 Some people say that the above verse has permitted sexual inter-course with slave women. Okay I'm little confused about the above verse. Is the above verse applicable right now? Because we don't see slave women now. And why is it permitted to have sexual inter-course with slave women without even marriage. Some critics have also claimed that the above verse has proved that Islam is a middle aged religion and is incompatible with the present age. Please Help!!!!

Hello brother Farhan!

I will discuss the slave bits in the next post. In this post, I will discuss the applicability in the Quran for all times and places.

"whom your right hands posses" Do not apply to us now.

Although, the Quran is meant to be recited, understod and followed by all of mankind at all times and places, there are specific verses in the Quran that are not applicable to everyone at all times. For example:

-There are verses that address men and how to treat their wives, obviously it is not applicable to women
-There are verses that address Jews/Christians, Obviously not applicable to Muslims.
-There are verses that address the prophet (pbuh) on how to wage war with the pagans, obviously not applicable to us
-There are verses that address you and how you should free your slave, obviously not applicable to you who doesn't have slaves (in the future we may go to war and get prisoners (slaves), the Quran tells us how to treat them and to free them after the war)
etc.
--There are verses that address us (of the future) and are not applicable to the prophet himself (Quran 55:33)

So just because there are verses not applicable to you right now, doesn't mean the Quran is not worth following, reciting and understanding. The Quran is meant to be a guide for everyone, so it will address everyone in different verses for all times and places. There is a verse in the Quran that commands us to go to space if we can (Quran 55:33), obviously not applicable to the prophet Muhammad himself! If a verse is not applicable to you, then its not applicable to you :)

So just be cause the Quran has some non-applicable verses to you, does not mean the Quran is not applicable to all of mankind at all times and places..the Quran still is because there are verses that command mankind for all times and places (like believing in Allah, that is applicable to EVERYONE at all times and places).


One may ask, Why does the Quran have things not applicable to us?

-The Quran makes verses that are applicable to some people and not to others so that ultimately, everyone is accounted for thus making the Quran applicable to everyone. So some verses are applicable to those of 7th century belief. Others are applicable to us. Some are applicable to men, some to women. In the end, everyone has verses to follow that are applicable to them.

-To teach a moral lesson. For example, chapter 9 of the Quran reflects on the Prophet Muhamamad's war with the meccans. Why is it there? So it can show us how people back then struggled for your faith and how the prophet dealt with oppressors/threats and how the prophet. This story is to guide the future wars and to make them as humane as possible (not kill anyone who surrenders or doesn't fight you). Unfortunately, we like to just bomb countries and even kill those who are innocent and don't wage war. This isn't Islamic. Only kill those who fight you. No reason to kill all of those kids and women and elderly and innocent people in an explosion for example.

So in the End, regardless of the applicability of a verse to you, it should still be recited as it has a story and moral behind it and it displays the character of almighty Allah and the prophets (Pbut) he chose and the people who struggled before you. The the verse may be applicable to you in the future as well :). IF we take a war and we have prisoners, we have to abide by the Quran as those verses are now applicable to us.

Conclusion: The Quran is meant to guide everyone of all times and places! Therefore, it must logically follow that it must have verses that are applicable to people back then, people today and people of the future! What the Quran does is presents verses that are sometimes only applicable to the people of back then or the people of the future. That is the Quran's way of ensuring that it guides everyone at all times--verses relevant to different times  :)
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 12:55:21 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Allegation against the Muslims
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2013, 05:54:22 PM »
In this post, I will discuss the absurdity of the idea of sex slaves:
Sex with Concubines / Slave Girls:


This is another absurdity that needs to be addressed. The clerics just go on stating that sex with slave girls are allowed. And they would also go on to state that source of slave girls were the women caught during the war.

Lets see how much truth is in the matter of this myth.

-   First, the Quran does **NOT** state that source of slaves were ware captives.
-   Second: For war captives had a rule i.e.

[8:67]
No prophet shall acquire captives, unless he participates in the fighting. You people are seeking the materials of this world, while GOD advocates the Hereafter. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.


There is another very important point that needs to be elaborated here. Unlike the common notion, the war captives cannot be held indefinitely i.e.:

   [47:4]
If you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks. If you take them as captives you may set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. Had GOD willed, He could have granted you victory, without war. But He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of GOD, He will never put their sacrifice to waste.

Thus the war captives had to be set free in any case. If not during the war, then they are to be freed at the end of the war. Many quranic scholars state this verse as an end to slavery !

Now the word used or IMPLIED to be used for slaves is  Malakat Aimanukum

What does it mean ?
It means *those who are rightfully yours* or *those under your oath / agreement*.

The simplest point is that **IF** Ma-Malakat Aimanukum are sex objects to be enjoyed then obviously no one is going to give up the privilege for nothing.

Keeping the same thing in mind, one can see the following verses:

   [4:24]
Also prohibited are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you.* These are GOD's commandments to you. All other categories are permitted for you in marriage, so long as you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain your morality, by not committing adultery. Thus, whoever you like among them, you shall pay them the dowry decreed for them. You commit no error by mutually agreeing to any adjustments to the dowry. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

[4:25]
Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing Ma Malakat Aimanukum. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery, or having secret lovers. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women.* Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.


Thus Ma Malakat Aimanukum are not something for a free ride.

Another factor that would simply shoot the theory in the foot, (of sex being legal with the slaves), is the verse 24:58.

Obviously we do not have to ask permission for our spouses to see us. There is nothing hidden of us from them. A clear factor that can even be grasped ALSO from the Quran (even if we do not get into the very obvious):


[2:187]
Permitted for you is sexual intercourse with your wives during the nights of fasting. They are the keepers of your secrets, and you are the keepers of their secrets. GOD knew that you used to betray your souls, and He has redeemed you, and has pardoned you. Henceforth, you may have intercourse with them, seeking what GOD has permitted for you. You may eat and drink until the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn. Then, you shall fast until sunset. Sexual intercourse is prohibited if you decide to retreat to the masjid (during the last ten days of Ramadan). These are GOD's laws; you shall not transgress them. GOD thus clarifies His revelations for the people, that they may attain salvation.



Following the same logic, we see that in 24:58


[24:58]
O you who believe, permission must be requested by your **Ma Malakat Aimanukum** and the children who have not attained puberty (before entering your rooms). This is to be done in three instances - before the Dawn Prayer, at noon when you change your clothes to rest, and after the Night Prayer. These are three private times for you. At other times, it is not wrong for you or them to mingle with one another. GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.



This shoots the theory of sex with slaves in the foot.

There are a few factors that one must understand in the process. Having women outside the marriage bond that can be sex objects has its points that are contradictory to the general perception and propagated concepts.

1-   If a woman can be acquired as a slave that can be a sex object then there is no point in marrying such a woman and paying her the due dowry.


The next question can be then what is the real definition of Ma Malakat Aimanukum.

A few observations of the usage of Ma Malakat Aimunukum reveals that, it has been used to mean multiple entities at a time.

1-   In 4:3 the MMA (Maa Malakat Aimunukum) has been used for the FIRST wife or the wife you already have.
2-   In 4:25 MMA is referred to some women who are in a transition towards better life / morals.
3-   In 24:58 it refers to servants.
4-   In 33:50 they are the women who give themselves to the prophet by forfeiting their dowry.

Thus in my opinion a more viable explanation is that the Ma Malakat Aimanukum were the women who fled the enemy camp and came to the believers for refuge. They were given to their guardians where they were being educated to the norms of the Islamic society and behavior.

   [60:12]
O you prophet, when the believing women (who abandoned the disbelievers) to seek asylum with you pledge to you that they will not set up any idols besides GOD, nor steal, nor commit adultery, nor kill their children, nor fabricate any falsehood, nor disobey your righteous orders, you shall accept their pledge, and pray to GOD to forgive them. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 06:01:56 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Allegation against the Muslims
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2013, 06:00:18 PM »
To be continued.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 06:02:25 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline Black Muslim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Allegation against the Muslims
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2013, 08:28:51 AM »
First thing first , there is only ONE case where slavery is allowed in Islam . That case is when fighting a disbeliever nation - and it's already known that such a fight would be self defense - and capturing people from it . They would do the same . The difference is , a slave in Islam , is mostly in a better situation than a freeman in other systems wither they are religions or not . And we can bring tons of evidence about it .
Secondly , it is never allowed to force slaves into sexual intercourse . And the ones who still have slavery among them are not ones to talk . Oh yes ! Europe and USA have slavery in many shapes wither it is the one in your mind or other ones .



And linckin , this is honestly the first post I see for you that doesn't contain acrobatic explanations or trying to change what's in Islam because it doesn't match what some people like . Still , it doesn't change a thing .

Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Allegation against the Muslims
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2013, 01:00:38 PM »

And linckin , this is honestly the first post I see for you that doesn't contain acrobatic explanations or trying to change what's in Islam because it doesn't match what some people like . Still , it doesn't change a thing .

So when I post something that favors your beliefs it is good, but, when I post something that does not favor your belief, you accuse me of acrobatic explanations? You are going to have to show me where these alleged acrobatic explanations I make are. All of my explanations are based entirely on the Quran.

I interpret the Quran, using only the Quran and it works all the time :) Notice, how no hadiths were used in my posts in this thread here.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 01:02:54 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline Black Muslim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Allegation against the Muslims
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2013, 01:06:42 PM »
Quote
So when I post something that favors your beliefs it is good, but, when I post something that does not favor your belief, you accuse me of acrobatic explanations?
Wrong , they are acrobatic when they oppose Islam .

Quote
Notice, how no hadiths were used in my posts in this thread here.
Exactly . The same as a house with no pillars to support it .