Author Topic: Confusion!!!!  (Read 39868 times)

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Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Confusion!!!!
« on: October 21, 2013, 12:32:39 pm »
Assalamualykum.


'' Blessed is He who has placed in the sky great stars and placed therein a [burning] lamp and luminous moon.''(25:61)

 In the above Ayah Allah says He has placed great stars in the Heaven and also place therein a lamp (Sun) and a luminous moon. Okay I don't understand why Allah differentiated the stars and the Sun. Why does Allah only address the sun as a lamp while we know that there are much more bigger luminous stars than the sun in the universe?And does this verse mean there is only one Sun and one moon in the Heavens? But it's not possible as I have told you earlier that our Universe consists of many Sun like stars and also Moons.

 Please clarify this.

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Confusion!!!!
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2013, 01:42:21 pm »
Hello brother Farhan!

I wanted to let you know that this verse (25:61)  uses the word that is more accurately translated as constellations. So right away, you know that this verse is referring to the human perception of the sky! We see constellations and patterns in the sky, so it is our perception. So this verse is adhering to human perception to explain a beautiful phenomena of creation. Next you notice that the Quran says that Allah placed a burning lamp in the sky and a moon. In no way does this mean there is only one burning lamp or one moon, it is just stating that there is a burning lamp and a moon in the sky.

There are a few things that you need to notice about this verse. In no way does this verse say that the sun isn't a star, or that there is only one moon.

Next there is another verse in the Quran that addresses the STARS as being LAMPS, just as the sun is.

Quran 24:35 Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from [the oil of] a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light. Allah guideth unto His light whom He will. And Allah speaketh to mankind in allegories, for Allah is Knower of all things.



Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Re: Confusion!!!!
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2013, 02:07:24 pm »
thanks brother.

 But can I have some more proof that Quran doesn't say that there is only one moon and one sun? Can you show anymore verse where Allah refers to the stars as lamps? And can you make it more clearer why do you think the verse is talking about human perception? It will Inshallah convince me.

PLEASE HELP

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Confusion!!!!
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2013, 02:12:29 pm »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers and sisters,

Brother Mclinkin94, great answer akhi.  May Allah Almighty bless you.  Ameen.

I would like to add that Allah Almighty created the creatures on earth to live by day and night.  Some planets, and even parts on this earth, have very long days cycles and very long nights cycles.  Normal life on earth was designed by an equal rotation of the day and night.  So by Divine Design, Allah Almighty placed the moon to be our night light, and for the sun to be our glorious star.

Furthermore, Allah Almighty Said the following:

‏91:1 والشمس وضحاها
‏91:2 والقمر اذا تلاها
‏91:3 والنهار اذا جلاها


"By the sun and its radiant light, and the moon that trails (and reflects) its light. By the day that magnifies and glorifies (جلاها) its brightness.  (The Noble Quran, 91:1-3)"



Did you know our shining and glorious days, on a clear day, are a magnification of the sun's rays by our atomosphere?  Outside our atmosphere, the universe is pitch black!  And Allah Almighty Said that it is our day that magnifies and glorifies the sun's brightness.  Please visit:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sun_rays_miracle.htm

thanks brother.

 But can I have some more proof that Quran doesn't say that there is only one moon and one sun? Can you show anymore verse where Allah refers to the stars as lamps? And can you make it more clearer why do you think the verse is talking about human perception? It will Inshallah convince me.

PLEASE HELP

[067:005]  And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.

‏67:5 ولقد زينا السماء الدنيا بمصابيح وجعلناها رجوما للشياطين واعتدنا لهم عذاب السعير

Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/shooting_stars_miracle.htm

Take care
Osama Abdallah

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Confusion!!!!
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2013, 02:22:59 pm »
Now, the question arises, why did the Quran use such language in that manner that appears contradictory?

It is because the Quran is an elegant book and is meant to display a beautiful text. Not only that you must reflect further:

Point 1: If God were to give a revelation to 7th century nomads it has to compel them and has to give them things to reflect upon so they believe in the scripture
Point 2: If that revelation is the final revelation and is supposed to compel people of the future, then that revelation cannot contradict reality that future humans will discover
Point 3: Therefore, the Quran MUST affirm 7th century belief without contradicting science.

And it must be sufficiently vague so that it doesn't compel those whose hearts are closed. (watch this video on this topic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj4DS_QQYfo )

So yes, you find that in the Quran many words are purposely avoided or the Quran used alternate words so it could affirm 7th century beleif without contradicting (but supporting) science. So the Quranic scientific miracles have to be vague enough so they don't compel those whose hearts are closed and has to (at the same time) NOT contradict 7th century belief.

Imagine Muhammad directly told everyone at the time that the Earth is round and that you are standing off of the middle and God has made it so you don't fall off. Image Muhammad told people directly that mankind's parents were primates. People at that time would have considered him "idiotic" and "unscientific" and would have never considered Islam. So what did God do? In the Quran, there isn't a single verse that says the Earth is flat and there are many verses that hint at the Earth being round and there are many verses that hint at evolution. Those have to be sufficiently vague enough so it doesn't compel those whose hearts are closed AND not contradict 7th century belief AND support modern science.



Conclusion: So why does the Quran sound so basic and why didn't the Quran cover extensively the complex scientific topics?

God  patronizes us in the Quran. He knows we are only limited to understanding certain things, and that is what he utilizes. So of course the Quran has to give 7th century people something to reflect upon. Its like me trying to explain the theory of relativity to a 2 year old. I am going to sound like I am 2 year old and I am going to avoid using bigger words and complex topics

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Confusion!!!!
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2013, 02:32:42 pm »
thanks brother.

 But can I have some more proof that Quran doesn't say that there is only one moon and one sun? Can you show anymore verse where Allah refers to the stars as lamps? And can you make it more clearer why do you think the verse is talking about human perception? It will Inshallah convince me.

PLEASE HELP

I believe brother Osama has answered the question well showing you that the stars are "suns". May Allah bless him for his efforts.


The Quran is just saying that he put a burning lamp and a moon in the sky. You have to understand that it is an issue of language and classification. Back then Stars were not referred to as suns. The Sun is the sun and the moon is the moon. That is what it was defined as. Even in our current english language, we still call the sun, "SUN". And we still call the stars, "stars" separate from the sun. So your misunderstanding comes from the issue of language and classification.

It was only recently that we started calling "the moon" and naming the other moons as "moons". When I say "The moon", everyone knows exactly what I am talking about. Its been that way for thousands of years.

If you go back to brother Osama's post, you notice he has shown you that the stars, like the sun, are lamps. The Quran didn't refer to the sun as "the star" because the word star back then wasn't used to denote the sun. At the same time you have the Quran telling you that the stars are like the sun in that they are both burning lamps.

Further, this verse is adhering to human perception because of the way it was written. It tells you to look at the sky's constellations, look at the sun and the moon and reflect upon them. Its obvious that Muhammad (pbuh) didn't have a telescope so it is referring to the human perception. If you look at the verse after it says "And it is He who has made the night and the day in succession for whoever desires to remember or desires gratitude". The "night' and the "day" are elements of the human perception in their view of the Earth. If you are observing the solar system from space, you wouldn't see the night and the day.

I hope that helps!

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Re: Confusion!!!!
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2013, 12:56:21 pm »
Assalamualykum.


 Can anyone make me understand the meaning of the following verse:

  ''By the night as it conceals it (the sun))'' [Surat Ash-Shams, verse: 4]


How can night hide the sun? It can't be supported by the modern science.


And at many places Quran talks about night and day travelling in an orbit. Okay how is it possible? Because night and day are the results of Earth's motion. I'm confused

Please help!!



Offline ThatMuslimGuy

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Re: Confusion!!!!
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2013, 01:43:19 pm »
Assalamualykum.


 Can anyone make me understand the meaning of the following verse:

  ''By the night as it conceals it (the sun))'' [Surat Ash-Shams, verse: 4]


How can night hide the sun? It can't be supported by the modern science.


And at many places Quran talks about night and day travelling in an orbit. Okay how is it possible? Because night and day are the results of Earth's motion. I'm confused

Please help!!

WalaikumAsalam.


 



 

91:4
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91:4

وَاللَّيْلِ إِذَا يَغْشَاهَا

Sahih International
And [by] the night when it covers it

Muhsin Khan
And by the night as it conceals it (the sun); 


What are you confused about? Are you proposing night doesn't hide/conceal the sun and its rays? When the Earth rotates (which causes night time) it hides the sun and its rays.

Its a pretty simple verse saying when its night time. Theres no sun...

As Ibn Kathir writes in his Tafsir:

(By the night as it Yaghshaha.) meaning, when it covers the sun, which takes place when sun disappears and the horizons become dark.

This is how language works. Is it an error when the Quran speaks about sunset and sunrise? Because technically the sun never sets or rises? No its how language works.

I apologise if I was being abrupt.

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Re: Confusion!!!!
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2013, 01:46:37 pm »
At many places Quran talks about night and day travelling in an orbit. Okay how is it possible? Because night and day are the results of Earth's motion. They don't have any orbit. Do they?

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Re: Confusion!!!!
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2013, 03:27:41 pm »
''Who made the earth firm to live in,made rivers in its midst,set thereupon mountains immovable.''(SURAH-Al-Naml:61)


  Can I have an explanation to the above verse? Why it says the earth is firm and mountains are immovable while in another verse it is said that Mountains are moving like clouds?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 03:32:20 pm by FARHAN_UDDIN »

Offline ThatMuslimGuy

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Re: Confusion!!!!
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2013, 04:14:34 pm »
''Who made the earth firm to live in,made rivers in its midst,set thereupon mountains immovable.''(SURAH-Al-Naml:61)


  Can I have an explanation to the above verse? Why it says the earth is firm and mountains are immovable while in another verse it is said that Mountains are moving like clouds?

WalakumAsalam,

I have started to discuss the usage of saying the Earth is firm/stable/safe/secure abode on my blog but need to write more.

http://quran-errors.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/re-wikiislam-quran-scientific-error_30.html

Saying the Earth/land is a firm/safe/secure abode is scientifically accurate for so many obv reasons.

Is the earth generally stable and safe? Yes. Some planets are gaseous so they are not a fixed/stable/safe abode. Whereas the earth is not gaseous meaning that it is solid and firm. Also every-time we walk on the earth, the earth doesn't shake or fall apart. It is a stable ground. etc


27:61
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أَمَّن جَعَلَ الْأَرْضَ قَرَارًا وَجَعَلَ خِلَالَهَا أَنْهَارًا وَجَعَلَ لَهَا رَوَاسِيَ وَجَعَلَ بَيْنَ الْبَحْرَيْنِ حَاجِزًا ۗ أَإِلَٰهٌ مَّعَ اللَّهِ ۚ بَلْ أَكْثَرُهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ
Sahih International
Is He [not best] who made the earth a stable ground and placed within it rivers and made for it firmly set mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier? Is there a deity with Allah ? [No], but most of them do not know.

Shakir
Or, Who made the earth a restingplace, and made in it rivers, and raised on it mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier. Is there a god with Allah? Nay! most of them do not know!

I dont know mountains immovable came from. From translations ive read it says firm mountains or raised mountains etc. I'll look into Arabic.

Edit: The Arabic used it:

(27:61:10)
rawāsiya
firm mountains

http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(27:61:10)

So saying the mountains are firm or raised doesn't contradict the verse that says they move like clouds.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 04:17:41 pm by ThatMuslimGuy »

Offline abdullah

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Re: Confusion!!!!
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2013, 05:22:10 pm »
salam, Im not sure where i read it from, but im pretty sure rawsiyaa means pegs. On another note the verses that say  the mountains are moving are referring to the day of judgement. But i heard somebody argue that it is referring to the present and the past, I am not good at arabic grammar so I can't say that it is true or false.

Offline ThatMuslimGuy

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Re: Confusion!!!!
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2013, 06:38:04 pm »
salam, Im not sure where i read it from, but im pretty sure rawsiyaa means pegs. On another note the verses that say  the mountains are moving are referring to the day of judgement. But i heard somebody argue that it is referring to the present and the past, I am not good at arabic grammar so I can't say that it is true or false.

yeah ive heard that to. However translations and context seem to point to the day of judgement.

And pegs is awtada

Such as:


78:7
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وَالْجِبَالَ أَوْتَادًا
Transliteration
Waljibala awtada
Sahih International
And the mountains as stakes?
Yusuf Ali
And the mountains as pegs?

Offline abdullah

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Re: Confusion!!!!
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2013, 09:22:56 pm »
Assalamualykum
Brother farhan the Quran is not a science book  so please don't treat it as one. It is a book of guidance, it was never meant to be a science book. In fact rarely anybody ever interpreted the Quran scientifically until Maurice baucille started the scientific miracle narrative. I ask all the bothers here to read brother hamza tzortzis essay on the scientific miracles in the Qur'an which can be found on his website at hamzatzortzis.com . You should not base your faith on the science in the Quran but on the irrefutable mathematical miracles in the Quran, especially the miracle of 19.

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Re: Confusion!!!!
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2013, 04:36:04 am »
''Who made the earth firm to live in,made rivers in its midst,set thereupon mountains immovable.''(SURAH-Al-Naml:61)


 Can anyone explain this verse