Author Topic: An advice to mclinkin94  (Read 52071 times)

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Offline IA

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2013, 10:33:06 am »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2013, 11:29:24 am »
First of all , what I meant was something like someone denying Hadith which says that the moon was split by the will of Allah because he thinks it's irrational !! Is that an argument ? So here , he's using his own mind , but he doesn't realize that his mind can't comprehend everything . Only arrogants think that humans can gain all the knowledge there is . Those are the same who think that one day humans can become Gods . As for the mentioned example , how on Earth does he decide it's irrational ? We see stars exploding and Holes sucking everything and leave absolutely no trace of it , we see many extraordinary planets and satellites and whatsoever . Would he say that it's irrational because he can't understand it with his intellect ? That is the point and meaning .

As for the topic of following or using your intellect , there are things which we should really not talk about while we don't know about them or studied . Some guy who doesn't memorize a single Surah in Quran can't up and say that eating pork is OK ! There are things which are discussed between scholars and they have differences on them , each one has a possible rational interpretations for a sign or Hadith . So a commoner here who has scarce knowledge shouldn't argue about what he doesn't know . I doubt he'd understand what he's talking about !
And allow me to give you a piece of information . The differences between scholars are for some reasons . A scholar might say that fasting six says in Shawwal - after Ramadan - isn't in Islam because he didn't know any Hadith or sign saying so . However , if he hears of a correct Hadith about it then he will admit it . So the differences are actually few and are in minor matters like eating manners .
And back on track , I said that someone who doesn't have knowledge shouldn't talk about what he doesn't understand . On the other hand , there are things which NO ONE can be spared of accusation for not knowing them . We all know that Islam is based on Believing that Allah is the only God and that Muhammad peace upon him is his servant and prophet , praying , charity , fasting Ramadan , and doing pilgrimage for the one able to . So if someone comes up and says that fasting Ramadan is not a pillar of Islam then there is absolutely no way we can give him the excuse of having a personal opinion !! That's one of the reasons why the Islamic nation is where it is now . Look at all those ignorant individuals who appear on TV dressing in fancy suits . One says that a boy can have a girlfriend and vise versa , another says it's OK to not pray , a third says that veiling one's body - man or woman - is not mandatory and there is no such thing in Islam , a fourth says that you can believe in other Gods and still be a Muslims !! So the point is , there can be no difference in basic and mandatory things . Whoever does is clearly defying Islam .

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On the topic of evolution, why try to make Islam incompatible with it, this drives people away from Islam. This causes them to think that Islam is just another christianity with their crazy creationists. We should always try our best to reconcile science with the Qur'an. We shouldn't say that the Qur'an supports a theory, but we should that it is not contradictory to it.
And that's the point when it comes to evolution ! Quran and Sunnah are clear about it . And do I need to repeat the story of creating father Adam peace upon him in paradise and what happened with Iblees ? As for the scientific part , there is absolutely no shred of evidence for evolution . And we are not to alter what Quran says in order to please pseudo-scientists . If we would , then we should agree with those who say that we were created by aliens or that the universe came out of nothing with no cause . And what's with calling creationists crazy ? What is it that they say ? If just saying that Allah created creatures and not some random ridiculous meaningless process is crazy then what's sane ? That's unless they say something else .

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2013, 04:23:57 pm »
Hello brother:

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Your method of using just your intellect to determine what is right and what is wrong, to interpret the Quran and to judge whether a hadith is true or not, is not islamic. To show you the weakness of our minds, just take the philosophers as an example. Didn't all of them use the intellect? Didn't all of their conclusions come after a long time thinking, using logic, etc? The answer is yes of course. But, were their conclusions the same? Absolutely not. Perhaps we have conclusions as much as philosophers. This is the result of using just your intellect and making it independent. You may say that "I make conclusion using the Quran". I said in my earlier post: by using the Quran as the only source, people will come to completely different conclusions.

I don't agree with this at all. I believe the Quran has stressed using our intellect and gaining evidence-it is mentioned there in nearly ALL chapters! Just because of the fact that conclusions can be right or wrong, does not make all conclusions wrong. Philosophers have also made many right approaches to understanding. The logical understanding and the philosophy of science are the most successful so far.

So conclusions can be right or wrong, and you must examine them scientifically. The Quran highlights this in one verse and it says those with knowledge may understand the unclear verses of the Quran, but the true translation is only known by Allah.

(Quran 3:7) It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

So there are verses that are precise, the alcohol verse is precise and it is the specific verse, There is no debate there. Allah's feelings towards homosexuality is also precise and clear in the Quran. There are verses in the Quran not like that, those verses are primarily the ones that focus on science! If you look at brother Osama's website (answeringChristiantiy) you notice that he applies scientific knowledge to show you the hidden scientific meaning of verses! Brother Osama is one of those with knowledge according to that verse. But even still, the true translation is from Allah!


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When I took the example of those people making alcohol permissible using arguments from the Quran, you said their arguments were weak, or they didn't have arguments at all. The same way, those verses that you regard as arguments of evolution being true, for me are not even arguments and using them to prove evolution is ridiculous.

That is because I have read their arguments. You read my arguments that show evolution and you scrutinize them, that is how we determine if it makes sense, that is how science and philosophy work  :)...Question your beliefs!

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So what you are doind by trying to interpret the Quran, is just following your desires. 

Maybe, but you have to examine their arguments irrespective of their desires

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Do you know that the main reason why there are so many sects within Islam, is misinterpretation of the Quran, using "the desire-follower intellect".

There are many sects because of hadiths and yes people do interpret the Quran to their desires, but that doesn't mean that their interpretation is wrong, you must examine the interpretation itself and show them it is wrong.


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You said "We have to do a systematic study of hadiths"!? There are people who can't learn propely to pray, because of time, knowledge etc. If everyone would become a self-confessed scholar of Islam, there would be a chaos. Everone will follow what he thinks is true and people will fall in confusion. Whom to follow? I just can't believe our God, the only God, Allah, can let people in such a pain. That's why he said:

 O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. (4:59)

I'm not saying to become a self-confessed scholar of Islam. I am saying utilize scholarly sources like Quranic interpreations and Quranic Arabic and arive at a conclusion. I like to think freely, I don't think the way the scholars want me to think, I refuse to commit shirk--the scholars are not perfect nor are they divine.

Again, you must examine the quotes itself.


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You said that the Prophet is not alive now, so the rule of refering to the Messenger is not applicable to us. You have to understand one thing: when the Quran talks about something, even if it is history, even if it is refering to Prophet Muhammad or his compaions, no matter what, it is refering to us too. The Quran is for all times.

Of course it is for us, but there are some verses not applicable to us. Like the verses on prisoners of war :P. So the Quran is made for all times and places. So it has verses applicable to 7th century people and us. For example verse 55:33 didn't apply to the prophet Muhammad, he could go into space :)

 
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So in this case, by refering to the Messeger, it means refering to his Sunnah, to his hadiths.

That's assuming that Hadiths are perfect and the scholars are infallible. I do not do this. I know that hadiths could have some truth in them, but, I shall not trust them. many many many times have they proven to be false.

The disagreement which Quran talks about - is not any disagreement by every person who only wants to follow his desires. So, can everyone disagree with scholars about whatever he wants? Of course not. What the verse is talking about, is when there is not a consensus about something between scholars, or between a large group of people, or between two schools of thought etc. So our duty then is to refer to the Quran and the Sunnah, and to accept the consensus arrived by the scholars. If there is no consensus, to follow that which we think is more logical (here the logic comes in!). Here is what Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi says in his english tafsir, explaining this verse:

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Hence, if a dispute arises about any matter between the Muslims or between the rulers and the ruled, they should turn to the Qur'an and the Sunnah for a decision and they should all submit to the decision. (http://www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/4/index.html#sdfootnote90sym)

No, you turn to the Quran for any decisions and ALL decision! And if there is a problem with the rulers, go back to the Quran and ensure they are doing it right.

Yes, but I don't like how you keep stressing that the majority rule is right in the scholars. That is not true, not shall it ever be true. The majority rule according to the world scholars is Christianity.

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Is there disagreement between scholars or people regarding evolution? No! So our duty is to obey those in authority among us.

Again, you adhere to a majority thing. It is a logical fallacy. You must go into my arguments and see the support the Quran has, rather than adhering to what the scholars say!

It just takes one verse: (Quran 64:3) He designed you and perfected your design 

That's it, there is no reason for any other debate. You were designed as something and that form was perfected. Not an instant creation!


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You said Allah did not promise to protect unquranic hadiths. Again, wrong.

Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian. (15:9)

The word for Quran here is "Dhikra" which includes both the Quran and the insipration given to the Prophet. That's why some of the translators translated it as:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). Yusuf Ali

Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian. Shakir

You have to see what the word Dhikra here is referring to. If it was referring to hadiths, then it would be a contradictions because hadiths have not been guarded from corruption.

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Here is was Islamic-Awareness says about this:
The promise made by Allah(SWT) in Qur'an 15:9 is obviously fulfilled in the undisputed purity of the Qur'anic text throughout the fourteen centuries since its revelation. However, what is often forgotten by many Muslims is that the divine promise also includes, by necessity, the Sunnah of the Prophet(P), because the Sunnah is the practical example of the implementation of the Qur'anic guidance, the wisdom taught to the Prophet(P) along with the scripture, and neither the Qur'an nor the Sunnah can be understood correctly without the other. (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/hadsciences.html)

Yes, but the Sunnah has been shown to not be preserved and corrupted? It would be like Allah telling us that he would preserve the bible :P. Therefore, you must conclude that the reminder this verse was talking about is the Quran.

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You said the Quran tries to support every belief. The Quran speaks the truth, despite it being wrong for someone or true for someone else. To prove this, I will use your example.

(And he is the one who created the night, daylight, sun and the moon, all swimming in an orbit). (Quran, The Prophets: 33).

Some decades before, the Sun moving was considered a scientific error. Now we know that it also moves (I think around itself, I'm not sure but I have read it somewhere and also Dr. Zakir Naik talks about it). So the Quran is the truth, even if it may not seem to someone. It doesn't neccesarily need to support every belief.

The Quran must support reality and 7th century belief simultaneously and that is what we see.

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Allah says several times in the Quran tha the majority of people are wrong. But this does not apply when it comes to something that is consensus between muslims.

Brother, this consensus between Muslims does not hold any argumentative value! The majority of muslim scholars went to scholar schools which were biased against certain things like evolution in the Quran for example. It is no surprise they also hold that bias. But unfortunately, the Quran support for evolution is too strong. The best way to do this is to go to my arguments one by one and then we decide whether the Quran supports evolution. Adhering to the majority opinion means we should all become Christians.

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Using your intellect to understand the Quran is wrong, and as I said, it was the main cause for so many sects to be formed. The solution is clear: humbling yourself, obeying the scholars, accepting the hadiths. This is the true Islam, which creates no confusion among people. I would never believe that Allah will leave such important thing unclear to us. I will respond to your arguments for evolution in the next post insha'Allah.

Completely disagree. I do not obey scholars, no shirk here.

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2013, 04:31:27 pm »
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mclinkin94, I don't have time at the moment to respond to your article about evolution being supported by the Quran. But, in short words: the Quran in some places tells us that the man was created from dust and in some others from a liquid. To make it clear, the Quran says that it was Adam who was created from dust, which means that whenever the Quran talks about people being created from a liquid etc is talking about other people:
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 04:37:35 pm by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2013, 04:39:36 pm »
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mclinkin94, I don't have time at the moment to respond to your article about evolution being supported by the Quran. But, in short words: the Quran in some places tells us that the man was created from dust and in some others from a liquid. To make it clear, the Quran says that it was Adam who was created from dust, which means that whenever the Quran talks about people being created from a liquid etc is talking about other people:

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2013, 05:20:44 pm »
After long arguments and seeing the true material , I'll refrain from going further with Mclinckin . That's unless he brings up yet another bizarre thing and claim it is in the great Islam .

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2013, 11:04:04 pm »
I'm glitching up badly, I'll respond when this is fixed  :)

@Black Muslim, did you get my youtube response. I pressed sent but it is not showing up in my sent box..

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When the Quran talks about stages, it talk about the stages of forming the dust or stages of embryo. This article refutes everything that has to do with evolution in the Quran: http://www.qurandeniesdarwinism.com/4.html

No, the Quran also says that we were also created from dust.

(Quran 30:20 )And of His signs is that He created you from dust; then, suddenly you were human beings dispersing [throughout the earth].
(Quran 35:11 )And Allah created you from dust, then from a sperm-drop; then He made you mates.

This is the same as Allah saying:

(Quran 16:4) He created man from a sperm-drop; then at once, he is a clear adversary.

So your argument holds no water.

---

I read that website called Quran and Darwinism. I saw a lot of dishonesty. You will see an example of his dishonesty below :)

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Why should the stages only be referred by embryology when the quran referred to another set of stages.

The Quran mentioned two types of stages:

The embryological stages (that we all know of)
-The creation of mankind stages:

Quran 3:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.


Stage of beginning creation.

Quran 3:8 Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

Stage of sexual reproduction

Quran 3:9 Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

Stage of proportioning and higher intellect formation

So you must conclude that when the Quran says:

(Quran 71:14)  God created you in diverse stages

that it is referring to BOTH embryology and evolution.


The author of
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 05:11:26 pm by mclinkin94 »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2013, 06:33:40 am »
The fake smile has returned I see . One minute you call me a disbeliever and now this ?

First of all , I didn't take a thing from Quran and Darwinism website . And seeing your way of forging evidence , I don't think you're one to talk about dishonesty !
We already discussed it and we all saw how you come up with anything at all to support your faith in Darwinism . Going on any further will be fruitless .

Offline abdullah

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2013, 03:30:57 pm »
Assalamualykuim
 Ilir ahmeti and blackmuslim
Before I respond to your posts, allow me to ask y'all a question.
Do y'all believe that the path that the sunni scholars take is the most intectually sound position?
And another question, show me one ayah in the Quran, where it says not to use my intellect when reading the Qur'an.

Brother Mclinkin
I dont know why I have to keep on repeating this, It is impossible for the sunnah to have been corrupted, it has been passed on by so many people in each generation that it is almost at the same level as the Quran in authenticity. The Sunnah and Hadith are two different concepts. It is only logical that Allah would protect the practice of the religion from corruption.

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2013, 05:08:41 pm »
My previous post got cut off, this is what it originally said:

The author of that website claims that we should interpret verses in light of other Quranic verses, and I just did :P, the author of that article neglected Quran 32:7-9 and only used the embryology one. How dishonest, eh?

That article claims:

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  That the verse is to be interpreted in this way is clear from the principle of "interpreting Qur'anic verses in the light of other Qur'anic verses," because in other verses Allah explains the stages of creation as being those inside the mother's womb.

Why did he neglect when Allah also explains the stages of human creation in 32:7-9 and many other places?  Are you denying those verses?

Therefore we must conclude that when the Quran says: (Quran 71:14)  God created you in  stages , it is referring to the stages mentioned in the embryology verses and the origin of man verses.

There really is no reasonable refutation to this unless you'd like to adhere to excuse making and say that Quran 32:7-9 are not talking about stages even though they clearly are.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 05:42:13 pm by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2013, 05:17:55 pm »
The fake smile has returned I see . One minute you call me a disbeliever and now this ?

First of all , I didn't take a thing from Quran and Darwinism website . And seeing your way of forging evidence , I don't think you're one to talk about dishonesty !
We already discussed it and we all saw how you come up with anything at all to support your faith in Darwinism . Going on any further will be fruitless .

Asalamu Alaikum, did you get my youtube response, I sent several but they are not showing up in my sent box. Let me know if you got any because you haven't responded yet.

I have not forged any evidence to my knowledge, nor have I shown dishonesty. Attacking me does not change what the Quran says  :D

Offline The Canadian Atheist

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2013, 02:46:14 am »
The fake smile has returned I see . One minute you call me a disbeliever and now this ?

First of all , I didn't take a thing from Quran and Darwinism website . And seeing your way of forging evidence , I don't think you're one to talk about dishonesty !
We already discussed it and we all saw how you come up with anything at all to support your faith in Darwinism . Going on any further will be fruitless .

Asalamu Alaikum, did you get my youtube response, I sent several but they are not showing up in my sent box. Let me know if you got any because you haven't responded yet.

I have not forged any evidence to my knowledge, nor have I shown dishonesty. Attacking me does not change what the Quran says  :D

I like your debating temperament. Really hard to find people like these on the internet

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2013, 07:52:38 am »
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Do y'all believe that the path that the sunni scholars take is the most intectually sound position?
And another question, show me one ayah in the Quran, where it says not to use my intellect when reading the Qur'an.
Now , what does the word "Sunni" mean ? Truth is , this word wasn't used until many false sects appeared and claimed to be Islamic while they're nothing of Islam like sects which worship Ali Allah be pleased of him . After they appeared , there was a need to use a term which defines the group that is on the right path . And so the term "Ahl Assuna Wa Aljama'a" shortly "Sunnis" appeared . The term itself is taken from the sayings of the prophet peace upon him where he says that all the groups are misguided except one which is the one following his Sunnah and group who are the companions . So yes , following the path of the prophet peace upon him is the only true way .
And now , where did I say we shouldn't use our intellect ? I just said that we're not ones to deny something we can't explain materially .

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Why did he neglect when Allah also explains the stages of human creation in 32:7-9 and many other places?  Are you denying those verses?

Therefore we must conclude that when the Quran says: (Quran 71:14)  God created you in  stages , it is referring to the stages mentioned in the embryology verses and the origin of man verses.

There really is no reasonable refutation to this unless you'd like to adhere to excuse making and say that Quran 32:7-9 are not talking about stages even though they clearly are.
As I said , Ill refrain . I already wasted hours of trying to reason with you . But you just can't abandon what you were forced to learn . How funny that accuse me of your own case .

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I have not forged any evidence to my knowledge, nor have I shown dishonesty. Attacking me does not change what the Quran says  :D
Sure , keep the smile if you want . You don't fool me .
And indeed , attacking you doesn't change what the Quran says . Attacking you is just my personal opinion about your misguidance . What really demolishes your false claims is what I already mentioned before and how you take anything there is as evidence for your doctrine . It's a matter of believe first and then find evidence . If you really want to go on and are sure that absolute truth is with you then drop by the place I told you unless it makes you feel insecure .

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I like your debating temperament. Really hard to find people like these on the internet
Again , mind your business . And don't let the idea "Since all those of the same religion are conflicting then I must be right" get to you . It's more than enough that Atheism has no basis at all and anyone does whatever they want in it .

Offline The Canadian Atheist

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2013, 12:27:52 pm »
It's rather ironic that you tell me to mind my own business. Are you so insecure about your beliefs that you have to always try and pick on my posts and constantly produce Ad Hominem attacks instead of addressing the original point?

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2013, 12:35:32 pm »
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Why did he neglect when Allah also explains the stages of human creation in 32:7-9 and many other places?  Are you denying those verses?

Therefore we must conclude that when the Quran says: (Quran 71:14)  God created you in  stages , it is referring to the stages mentioned in the embryology verses and the origin of man verses.

There really is no reasonable refutation to this unless you'd like to adhere to excuse making and say that Quran 32:7-9 are not talking about stages even though they clearly are.

As I said , Ill refrain . I already wasted hours of trying to reason with you . But you just can't abandon what you were forced to learn . How funny that accuse me of your own case .

That sounds like an excuse to not debate me. Why not refute my arguments instead of insulting them? The Quran said explictly we were created in stages and the Quran explicitly highlighted what those stages were-evolutionary and embryological. There really is no way out of this if you want to remain intellectually honest. 

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And indeed , attacking you doesn't change what the Quran says . Attacking you is just my personal opinion about your misguidance . What really demolishes your false claims is what I already mentioned before and how you take anything there is as evidence for your doctrine . It's a matter of believe first and then find evidence . If you really want to go on and are sure that absolute truth is with you then drop by the place I told you unless it makes you feel insecure . 

Glad we are on the same page. You are gonna have to show me where where I was forging evidence.

If you are asking me to find evidence, I have shown you Quranic evidence that there really is no way out of unless you become dishonest.

I believe your issue with evolution is not Quranic, but rather scientific. This is a religious forum, there are many science forums you can go to and debate with evolution. All you need to is study it and see the evidence for it.

I have dropped by the places you keep pointing me at, do you expect me to go through all of the sites and write you a response one by one? Give me certain aspects of them that compel you and I will answer you.

I've done a lot of work on that subject--both scientific and religious research.

I am compelled to believe in the fact of evolution. Science has proved it and the Quran has implied it. There is a reason why the prominent scientists no longer consider evolution to be a theory. It has become very strong in its evidence and explanatory power. All the evidence we have proves evolution. Did you get that? All (not 'most') of the evidence we have proves evolution.

But evidence doesn't convince the unwilling. , Allah does not love these kinds of people. He has given you intellect and higher intelligence. Many times in the Quran this is mentioned, intellect is important.

(Quran 8:22) Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason
(Quran 8:23) Had Allah known any good in them, He would have made them hear. And if He had made them hear, they would [still] have turned away, while they were refusing.
(Quran 21:10) We have sent down to you a Book. It will give you eminence, honour and nobility. Will you then not be sensible and reasonable and understand it?

A perfect example is the flat earth society, please drop by and see the dishonesty and unwilling nature:  http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?board=10.0

You are ordered to reflect upon the Quran:

(Quran 47:24) Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts?


So reflect upon these verses:

(Quran 64:3) ...He designed you and perfected your design...
(Quran 32:7) Allah is He who has made everything He created BETTER, and He began the creation of the human.. <--reflect upon this, why does the Quran say that creation was made better or perfected, and then links that with the beginning of human creation?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 01:06:56 pm by mclinkin94 »