Author Topic: An advice to mclinkin94  (Read 53816 times)

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Offline Black Muslim

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2013, 11:03:40 AM »
It is time for the father of Hanifa to rest his legs . I'll work with the advice of a teacher and stop this . I didn't do all this for you really . I did it because I was afraid for people to be fooled by this misguidance you preach .
The same as before , you haven't answered what kills your belief in rejecting Sunnah , neither did you answer me showing you and people how the site you bring works against you , neither have you answered me proving that the prophet did know the hypocrites .
Yes , I do know Arabic , that's why I keep saying that you fail to understand anything Quran says in a correct way . And if another native Arabic speaker so this , he will blame me for going this deep into trying to reason with you .
I did what I have to do .
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Al-Kahf (Cave) 29 : And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2013, 11:29:09 AM »
It is time for the father of Hanifa to rest his legs . I'll work with the advice of a teacher and stop this . I didn't do all this for you really . I did it because I was afraid for people to be fooled by this misguidance you preach .
The same as before , you haven't answered what kills your belief in rejecting Sunnah , neither did you answer me showing you and people how the site you bring works against you , neither have you answered me proving that the prophet did know the hypocrites .
Yes , I do know Arabic , that's why I keep saying that you fail to understand anything Quran says in a correct way . And if another native Arabic speaker so this , he will blame me for going this deep into trying to reason with you .
I did what I have to do .
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Al-Kahf (Cave) 29 : And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."

The same could be said to you. But I see this as you giving up. The evidence is clear and nothing will convince an unwilling person like yourself.

I have already answered you in everything, but to you they aren't good enough.

I and ALL Muslims agree that the Quran is divine and the Hadith is manmade. Therefore, if the Quran conflicts a hadith, you support the Quran irregardless of your emotions. You don't like this, I know....I know. But in the battle between emotion and reasoned logic. Pick logic!

Further Quran 19:101 has said Muhammad doesn't know who the hypocrites were at his time. Nowhere does the Quran say that Muhammad was successful at finding all hypocrites. And if by chance, he was, when the prophet died--how exactly did he fight off the new hypocrites that carry on the hadiths?? Ironically at least two Sahih Hadith in the Muslim's compilation confirm this by admitting to 12 hypocrites masquerading as companions and who's identities were never revealed.

Further, I have shown you how the site I bring doesn't work against me and works in my favor. I also broke down everything for you in little pieces, but evidence doesn't convince the unwilling. Further, you have not at all showed me how the word-for-word translation of the Quran goes against me, you just claim you have. I have responded to your points clearly.

I provide evidence, you reject the evidence. Its been like that the entire way. And the sad part is, you reject the evidence through fallacies and rhetoric.

Yes, you do know Arabic and you keep saying that I fail to understand the Quran without providing evidence or a reason. IN fact, I provided you with a source and a breaking everything down. Yet, you still deny.

Further, I have spoken to many Arabic speakers on the word "ahsana" they ALL said it means to make better.

Not only that I have shown you the verses in context.

What more do I need to do?

You have failed in every way possible. It is just ridiculous at this point.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 11:54:18 AM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2013, 11:39:43 AM »
Whenever the issue of the authenticity of reports ascribed to the Prophet of God Pbuh are raised, the sects keep bringing up verses of the Quran to try and prove that we are supposed to follow what the Prophet Pbuh said.


Why do they have to be reminded again and again that that is not the issue? There are no two opinions on this particular issue.


The 99.9% non verbatim impossible to verify reports are the real issue.

And no it is not a satisfactory state of affair to claim that dozens of "scholars" have declared these reports authentic. In a Taqleedy (to accept without questioning) system it is not difficult to cite dozens of scholars photo copying the work of each other.

And no it is not enough to say it is very complicated to explain how these scholar clones go about determining the authenticity of a report.

Simplify it.

Above all back the tall claims associated with these secondary sources.

How did the compilers of these reports for instance know which companions were hypocrites and which were not? Quran 9:101 is clear on the issue, not even the Prophet Pbuh knew.

No don't pretend to be angry answer the question. We are not insulting the companions; we are trying to identify the hypocrites among them

How did Bukhari go through 600,000 reports without making a single mistake?

Why are these reports not verbatim if they were transmitted by the same people who gave us the 100% verbatim Quran?

Why are so few reports credited to the Prophet's closest companions?

And a dozen other impossible to answer questions.

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But the hadith story here is irrelevant. Leave that for another debate. The question here is: Does the Quran support the basic idea of evolution?

And through all the verses I provided, the answer is YES. Without a doubt. (If you disagree here, please post verses as to why and why I am wrong) Leave out ALL of the hadiths for now, leave out ALL of the rhetoric and fallacies. And just for a limited time, leave out your scientific reasons to reject evolution. Just present verses. If you cannot and every-time you do I answer you logically, I expect honesty! Nay, I BEG for your honesty! Then we can decide whether the Quran does or doesn't support evolution, irregardless of hadith or whether you think evolution is true. That is how we can remain honest. I swear to Allah that I have been and will continue to remain honest. I need you to do the same, swear here under oath. Allah does not like liars.   We both will be honest completely. Further, you need to drop all of the bias and just be unbiased and neutral to everything.  The Question is: Does the Quran support the basic idea of evolution?, This is to be answered irregardless of whether you think it is true or not.

Now, you haven't refuted those verses logically at all. Rather, you just claim that I am ignorant in the Arabic language despite giving you clear word for word translations to an Arabic speaker like yourself.

So if you are to say that the Hadith rejects evolution and we should therefore change the interpretation or meaning of the clear Quran to match Hadiths, then you are just plain wrong.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 12:01:20 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2013, 07:41:44 AM »
You can accuse me of running away as much as you like . We all saw how you didn't respond to the points I mentioned .

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I and ALL Muslims agree that the Quran is divine and the Hadith is manmade. Therefore, if the Quran conflicts a hadith, you support the Quran irregardless of your emotions. You don't like this, I know....I know. But in the battle between emotion and reasoned logic. Pick logic!
Since you started making new misguiding claims , I'll have to respond again in this new topic .
First of all , you're not the one to tell us so . It is known before you or your 10th grandfather were born that whatever contradicts Quran in a way that cannot be explained is immediately discarded .
And I would say that you don't really follow logic , you follow desire . You see something you don't like in Hadith and just decide to deem it wrong and corrupted while the problem actually lies in you . Anything you try to bring will prove this . So again , get over yourself . This arrogance you hold is deadly .

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Further Quran 19:101 has said Muhammad doesn't know who the hypocrites were at his time. Nowhere does the Quran say that Muhammad was successful at finding all hypocrites. And if by chance, he was, when the prophet died--how exactly did he fight off the new hypocrites that carry on the hadiths?? Ironically at least two Sahih Hadith in the Muslim's compilation confirm this by admitting to 12 hypocrites masquerading as companions and who's identities were never revealed.
You can never prove what's underlined . The sign says that the prophet didn't know them when the sign was revealed . And we have verses ordering the prophet to fight the hypocrites . So rationally , if he's going to fight them , he necessarily knows them . The story of Huthaifa the son of Yaman confirms this as the prophet told him about the their names and so he wouldn't pray on them the same way the prophet wouldn't . And Quran who's innocent of you says :

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Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest

The believers are only the ones who have believed in Allah and His Messenger and then doubt not but strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah . It is those who are the truthful.

For the poor emigrants who were expelled from their homes and their properties, seeking bounty from Allah and [His] approval and supporting Allah and His Messenger, [there is also a share]. Those are the truthful.

Allah himself said he's pleased with the believers and calls them truthful . Enough said . And in the chapter of the people of Umran

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Allah would not leave the believers in that [state] you are in [presently] until He separates the evil from the good. Nor would Allah reveal to you the unseen. But [instead], Allah chooses of His messengers whom He wills, so believe in Allah and His messengers. And if you believe and fear Him, then for you is a great reward.

It says that Allah wouldn't leave people in their state until the evil is known and good is known .

So , considering the last points , the prophet did know the hypocrites because :
1 - Nothing says he never knew them until he passed away .
2 - There are signs saying Allah is pleased of the believers whom you hate so much .
3 - There's a verse saying that Allah will reveal the evil and good and tell his prophet .
4 - There are signs telling the prophet peace upon him to fight the hypocrites and to never obey them meaning that he must have known them .
Therefore , saying that the companions are hypocrites = A failing attempt to make us drop half our religion .

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Further, I have shown you how the site I bring doesn't work against me and works in my favor. I also broke down everything for you in little pieces, but evidence doesn't convince the unwilling. Further, you have not at all showed me how the word-for-word translation of the Quran goes against me, you just claim you have. I have responded to your points clearly.
Did the disc brake or what ? "Unwilling , unwilling , unwilling , unwilling" . You think that just by saying this , you make a strong argument . Sure , I also describe you with what's actually in you but I do bring things to prove it . As for the site , it says "made good" . NOWHERE does it say "Made it better" as you lied about Quran and made a completely new verse . And when I mentioned the sandwich example which explains how you don't just misunderstand but insist on misunderstanding , you shoved it off as if it's nothing . So , Arabic is against you , English is against you , and mathematical logic is against you . What do you got ?

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I provide evidence, you reject the evidence. Its been like that the entire way. And the sad part is, you reject the evidence through fallacies and rhetoric.
Bluffing means nothing .

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Yes, you do know Arabic and you keep saying that I fail to understand the Quran without providing evidence or a reason. IN fact, I provided you with a source and a breaking everything down. Yet, you still deny.
So , dishonesty and lack of shame as well , huh ? It seems even if I put the argument right under your nose , you would still claim I provided nothing .

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Further, I have spoken to many Arabic speakers on the word "ahsana" they ALL said it means to make better.
Keep this testimony of yours to yourself . I asked many religion and language teachers at my school and they all said that it means to make something good . When I asked them "Can it possibly mean to make creatures incomplete and then make them better ?" they denied giving me strange glares as if I just said a bad joke .

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What more do I need to do?
You need to drop these dangerous ideologies you hold . OR make a new sect for yourself where there's no proof of God and we still blindly believe in him , where this God has no characteristics , where the prophet of God failed to set the nation on the right path and it was lost in corruption until some genius showed up and discovered what it didn't , where there is no way for us to know a single thing about history since we dropped the only way to know it , a sect where we can't prove that there was ever a man called Muhammad .

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The 99.9% non verbatim impossible to verify reports are the real issue.
They are only impossible to verify to you . This twisted way you follow also says to deny the entire history because we can't make verify anything at all . Anyone can claim that everything written in history was corrupted and made out of conspiracies . And because you follow your selfish desire , you only discard Sunnah which seems to oppose what you prefer .

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And no it is not a satisfactory state of affair to claim that dozens of "scholars" have declared these reports authentic. In a Taqleedy (to accept without questioning) system it is not difficult to cite dozens of scholars photo copying the work of each other.
Funny , I was reading a book talking about this mentality . What's more funny is that the writer was answering Richard Dawkinz . I guess it's true , similar birds are indeed attracted to each other .
In the book , he mentions how Dawkinz denies a certain incident witnessed by millions of people who saw the sun falling on Earth . He can't deny it . The ones who saw it passed it to the ones after them , and the ones after them passed it to the ones after them in a way that it can't be forged or conspired . Of course , what the people saw wasn't the sun literally falling on Earth , still , you can never deny that they saw the incident .
That's how it was with Sunnah , the prophet peace upon him passed his teachings to the companions whom Quran tells us were truthful and honest . If you want to ignore Quran here because it doesn't suit you , it's your own business . After that , the companions passed them on to the followers . Moreover , even during the time of the prophet himself Hadith was recorded by his order and then after he passed away . What scholars did was using the logical ways Quran mentioned to determine the right from wrong . They wouldn't accept even the slightest possibility that a person would lie even to an animal . Such a thing will make them discard him immediately . And you try to compare this study to a school game - O one who has no shame - and say that there is NO WAY these people remembered every word of what they were told . The simple fact that there are 5 years old during these days memorizing Quran proves you wrong . This is in our days , so what do we say about the prime of the Islamic nation when it wasn't difficult for anyone to remember a poem of 200 parts ? So when you try to make it look like some hypocrites showed up suddenly hundreds of years ago and decided to forge Hadith it's actually out of ignorance of what really happened or stubbornness .
Again , bluffing does nothing .

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How did the compilers of these reports for instance know which companions were hypocrites and which were not? Quran 9:101 is clear on the issue, not even the Prophet Pbuh knew.
Already answered .

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No don't pretend to be angry answer the question. We are not insulting the companions; we are trying to identify the hypocrites among them
Yes you are insulting them and yes it's vulgar . Allah tells us that he's pleased of them and the prophet peace upon him favors a group of them for their faith and morals and willingness and you say that maybe they were "Kuffar" !? What would you feel if I say so about you ? I can easily do so and you can't blame me .

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How did Bukhari go through 600,000 reports without making a single mistake?
First of all , just because you can't , it doesn't mean others can't . Talking about emotions ? Well , here you are rejecting this simply because you think it's not possible . Maybe you'd deny someone memorizing the entire Quran as well because you think it's impossible . Let me tell you this : It doesn't go the way you like or dislike .
Secondly , Bukhari did make a number of mistakes and so did other scholars . But to claim that they ALL didn't notice forged hadith or sayings , you're then trying to make fun of our intellect and of an entire nation going from the first day of revelation until now after over 1435 years . The entire nation cannot agree on something false .

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Why are these reports not verbatim if they were transmitted by the same people who gave us the 100% verbatim Quran?
The noble Quran is to be kept the same alphabet by alphabet . Allah says so . Sunnah on the other hand is the second source of teachings as it is also a revelation . When it comes to Sunnah , it is the meaning which is kept the same . And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that except for you . a few words with the same exact meaning can be different , a companion may have heard a part from the prophet but not the rest because he left or any other reason , a companion may have seen a part of an incident and the other saw another part and the third as well , nothing's wrong with that at all . If so , bye bye history . Forget history , we won't be able to claim that anything said about someone is true because the word "and" is missing from the story telling of a person and exists in the story of the other ,  or maybe the other one corrupted what the first has said and added "and" .

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Why are so few reports credited to the Prophet's closest companions?
Hold it , come again ? Either I misunderstood or you just made one big fat lie .

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And a dozen other impossible to answer questions.
Well , my little cousin used to look at me and say "Why do you tell me to eat with my right hand and you're eating with the left ?" and I answer "It IS my right hand ! It's only your left . If you come here and turn around it will become your right" and he does and then opens his mouth in amazement saying that I can never explain to him how this mysterious phenomenon happens . Guess what happened one year later . On the other hand , I have questions disproving your way which you haven't answered in two weeks or so . Compare this to me answering you right away . I'll copy them - again - at the end of this reply .

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The question here is: Does the Quran support the basic idea of evolution?

And through all the verses I provided, the answer is YES. Without a doubt.
And I proved to you time and time again that Quran has nothing to do with this ideology . So stop with bluffing , it's really getting ridiculous . We were one sign out of many which you misquote and alter and you still can't see how you brought what contradicts your argument . If this one single point was so fruitless that I keep repeating and you keep ignoring then a question rises about your honesty and your ability to understand outside what you're forced to believe because "Scientists" said it's right .

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Leave out ALL of the hadiths for now, leave out ALL of the rhetoric and fallacies. And just for a limited time, leave out your scientific reasons to reject evolution. Just present verses. If you cannot and every-time
Quran , Sunnah , and science , all of them step on this hypotheses - Yes , I dared and called it so - and prove it wrong all the time . You fail to show a single sign supporting it , you fail to disprove Hadith which discredits it , and the entire gang of evidence-faking pseudoscientists fail to prove evolution and so they judge that whatever happens is because of evolution .

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I expect honesty! Nay, I BEG for your honesty! Then we can decide whether the Quran does or doesn't support evolution, irregardless of hadith or whether you think evolution is true. That is how we can remain honest. I swear to Allah that I have been and will continue to remain honest. I need you to do the same, swear here under oath. Allah does not like liars.   We both will be honest completely. Further, you need to drop all of the bias and just be unbiased and neutral to everything.
I swear with the almighty Allah the lord of the great throne and heavens and Earth and what's between them that's you are the one being either dishonest or lying or biased . I said it and I'll say it again : Bluffing does nothing . All these emotional attacks you make on me backed up by nothing are also nothing . I am being honest . The one who's not honest is the one who fears dealing with what contradicts what he wants to believe . Trying to make it look like I blindly follow scholars and say evolution is wrong because they say so is cheap . I believe it's wrong because I saw and keep seeing evidence it's wrong .

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Now, you haven't refuted those verses logically at all. Rather, you just claim that I am ignorant in the Arabic language despite giving you clear word for word translations to an Arabic speaker like yourself.
Yes I answered your false explanations both logically and literally . I showed you that "Make good" doesn't in any world mean "Make something better after it was incomplete" . You are the one trying to make his way through this by spamming "You're dishonest , the sign is clear , I give a word for word translation" . And since it's become so pointless to keep going like this , further repentance might make me stop in this subject and just focus on defending Sunnah from your allegations .

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So if you are to say that the Hadith rejects evolution and we should therefore change the interpretation or meaning of the clear Quran to match Hadiths, then you are just plain wrong.
We don't need to change anything . It is you who needs to change his false ideology and abandon false interpreting of the noble Quran .

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1 -You claim that Quran says it is the only source . Then why does Quran itself tells us to ask others ?

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And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not! -

2 - The ones who wrote Hadith did follow the teachings of Quran and used its way .

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A - Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."
B - O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.
C - And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you,
D - O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.

In the first one , Quran gives instructions to ask for evidence in anything and not accept whatever told . In the second one , Quran tells us to be investigate what we are told . In the third one , Quran tells us to be patient in investigating evidence . In the fourth one , Quran tells us to not accuse with no proof .
Now , these rules are done correctly by the scholars of Hadith while you who deny Sunnah do the opposite . You don't follow the third one which tells us to be patient in finding evidence . When one writes Hadith , he travels great distances to make sure of every single piece of information he is told . And you who sit in your house with air conditioning have no right object on this method . And when it comes to the forth one , Allah tells us to avoid negative assumptions while you simply say Hadith is corrupted and that the writers are liars and hypocrites . You even go to call the companions hypocrites !!

3 - History mentions a huge range of claims and accusations against Quran and else . Why don't we EVER hear about deniers of Sunnah in the time of the prophet peace upon him and his companions ? Why didn't anyone at all say that we must ONLY follow Quran and abandon anything else ? You talk about baseless theories accusing Hadith and I'm talking rationally here . If this path you're going down is really true , then how come no one noticed ? There's a difference between different explanations of verses and between an essential matter such as this .


4 - Through this method which you hate so much and make fun of , we know that there is a man called "Muhammad" and that there are people who lived with him called "Companions" and that Allah sent a book to him called "Quran" . So without this method , we loose our history . And based on that , anyone can deny that there was ever a man called Muhammad - peace upon him - and and deny that there were companions . In fact , anyone can deny anything with this method you follow . I for example can deny that there was world war one . How can you ever object on me ? I didn't see it and only heard about it from people who heard about it from others . Then it must be a fable .

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2013, 10:31:50 PM »
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You can accuse me of running away as much as you like . We all saw how you didn't respond to the points I mentioned .

Which points? I responded to all of them except the ones where you are sarcastic and insult. Please post the points again.


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Since you started making new misguiding claims , I'll have to respond again in this new topic .
First of all , you're not the one to tell us so . It is known before you or your 10th grandfather were born that whatever contradicts Quran in a way that cannot be explained is immediately discarded .

The claims were not misguided. Are you seriously comparing the authenticity of hadiths to the Quran?

Secondly, I love your next point, we should discard hadiths that contradict the Quran. Then we got a LOOONG way to go in discarding Hadiths. We can start with the Apostasy ones, the music ones and 'grow your beard ones' and of course the ones that go against evolution  :D.


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And I would say that you don't really follow logic , you follow desire . You see something you don't like in Hadith and just decide to deem it wrong and corrupted while the problem actually lies in you . Anything you try to bring will prove this . So again , get over yourself . This arrogance you hold is deadly .

If I follow what I desire, I wouldn't have ever became Muslim. Trust me on that point.

I follow what is reasonable. Chinese whispers are not reasonable to follow.

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Further Quran 19:101 has said Muhammad doesn't know who the hypocrites were at his time. Nowhere does the Quran say that Muhammad was successful at finding all hypocrites. And if by chance, he was, when the prophet died--how exactly did he fight off the new hypocrites that carry on the hadiths?? Ironically at least two Sahih Hadith in the Muslim's compilation confirm this by admitting to 12 hypocrites masquerading as companions and who's identities were never revealed.
You can never prove what's underlined . The sign says that the prophet didn't know them when the sign was revealed . And we have verses ordering the prophet to fight the hypocrites . So rationally , if he's going to fight them , he necessarily knows them . The story of Huthaifa the son of Yaman confirms this as the prophet told him about the their names and so he wouldn't pray on them the same way the prophet wouldn't . And Quran who's innocent of you says :

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Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest

The believers are only the ones who have believed in Allah and His Messenger and then doubt not but strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah . It is those who are the truthful.

Firstly, You have failed to show that Muhammad has dealt with all of the hypocrites at his time. Secondly, and even more importantly, you have failed to show that Muhammad has dealt with all the new hypocrites that came after he died.

What argument do you really hold? Just more excuses.

For the poor emigrants who were expelled from their homes and their properties, seeking bounty from Allah and [His] approval and supporting Allah and His Messenger, [there is also a share]. Those are the truthful.

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Allah himself said he's pleased with the believers and calls them truthful . Enough said . And in the chapter of the people of Umran

Hypocrites =/= believers.


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It says that Allah wouldn't leave people in their state until the evil is known and good is known .

So , considering the last points , the prophet did know the hypocrites because :
1 - Nothing says he never knew them until he passed away .
2 - There are signs saying Allah is pleased of the believers whom you hate so much .
3 - There's a verse saying that Allah will reveal the evil and good and tell his prophet .
4 - There are signs telling the prophet peace upon him to fight the hypocrites and to never obey them meaning that he must have known them .
Therefore , saying that the companions are hypocrites = A failing attempt to make us drop half our religion .

1.) Nothing says the prophet dealt with All hypocrites--he did do an effort of course
2.) Again, hypocrites are not classified as believers. People who fake being believers are hypocrites.
3.) Now, you bring up a good point here!  Indeed Allah does distinguish the good from the bad and he definitely has aided Muhammad and us, but again, I ask where does it say that all the hypocrites past, present and future have been dealt with. Especially the ones who write hadith?Further, this verse is probably better understood by saying that Allah will actively continue revealing the hypocrites to us. This is a continuous process! This shows that not all hypocrites are being dealt with at once, rather Allah has done so once in the battle of Uhud and he will continue to do so today. It is a continuous process. So all the hypocrites have not really been dealt with.
4.)Indeed there are some companions who were truthful and probably have said good things, but it is obvious by reason and the Quran that there are hypocrites among them.

Ironically your own sources, support my point

Ironically Bukhari's own report clearly points to this fact especially after his, Prophet's Pbuh demise:

Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "Some of my companions will come to me at my Lake Fount, and after I recognize them, they will then be taken away from me, whereupon I will say, 'My companions!' Then it will be said, 'You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you."
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 76, Hadith 584


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Did the disc brake or what ? "Unwilling , unwilling , unwilling , unwilling" . You think that just by saying this , you make a strong argument . Sure , I also describe you with what's actually in you but I do bring things to prove it . As for the site , it says "made good" . NOWHERE does it say "Made it better" as you lied about Quran and made a completely new verse . And when I mentioned the sandwich example which explains how you don't just misunderstand but insist on misunderstanding , you shoved it off as if it's nothing . So , Arabic is against you , English is against you , and mathematical logic is against you . What do you got ?

Unwilling really is the best word for this type of dishonesty.

Again, I have explained why it says "made better". IF you make good everything that you created, what did you do? You made it better--that is a simple line of reasoning. Further, you disregarded the verses after it that further demonstrate that creation was made..better.

Further I have given you 2 more verses that show this point:

Quran 40:64 [Allah] formed you THEN (fa) made good your forms
Quran 64:3 formed you then (fa) made good your forms

In arabic (waaw) translates as "and". Thumma and Fa both respectively translate as Then. Fa also carries a meaning of 'thus'. So lets think about it. You were designed..Time lapse..then your design was made good.

Was made good. Meaning made better than the initial. Its not rocket science. But it is "unwilling''.

In Quran 32:7 if Allah wanted to say that creation is good, why did he word it in that way implying that creation was MADE good through a process??

The sandwhich example was nothing more than an appeal to ridicule, I had no idea that you actually meant something like this. I cannot believe I have to even address it.

Firstly, if I say that I made the sandwhich then I made it good (as the Quran says about creation), That means I improved upon the sandwich.

The reason why your sandwhich Analogy fails is because you use the word "good" as a descriptive adjective! In the Quran it is a VERB. . You can verify it by going to the word for word translation.

You said "I made this sandwich and I made this sandwich Good". The word good you used here is an adjective. Rather the better sentence is that " I made better this sandwich".

The verb Better is defined as "to make good or to improve". The Arabic verb Ahsana means the verb "to make good", it is not an adjective.

The problem with using the word 'good' is the English language. Good isn't and cannot be a verb. A word that means to make good that is a verb is 'better'.

In fact, Sahih international translated 32:7 as Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

Perfected: Make something BETTER.

 Now, you are suggesting that the Quran says in 32:7 that creation is Good. If that was the case, why didn't the Quran simply say "Who creates everything Good" or "Everything is created Good" instead of saying "I have made good/better everything which I created" or "I have perfected everything which I created".



Personally, I feel like this verse is clear, in fact you should read the verses after, they describe HOW Allah has made humanity better! First Allah began the creation, then he made sexual reproduction, then he further proportioned us (made us better from the beginning state of creation mentioned in 32:7).

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Keep this testimony of yours to yourself . I asked many religion and language teachers at my school and they all said that it means to make something good . When I asked them "Can it possibly mean to make creatures incomplete and then make them better ?" they denied giving me strange glares as if I just said a bad joke .

So it looks like they agree that it means to make something good/better as a verb. But they, like you, are raised denying evolution in their culture so they deny.

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You need to drop these dangerous ideologies you hold . OR make a new sect for yourself where there's no proof of God and we still blindly believe in him , where this God has no characteristics , where the prophet of God failed to set the nation on the right path and it was lost in corruption until some genius showed up and discovered what it didn't , where there is no way for us to know a single thing about history since we dropped the only way to know it , a sect where we can't prove that there was ever a man called Muhammad .

I think quite the opposite, you need to make a new sect or redefine whatever sect you are in as "non-Quranic".

There is NO proof of God. I said before and I will say it again. The Quran does not give proof, it gives ayats!

Please read this: I'm still working on it, it has a lot more to God

http://answeringislamicskeptics.weebly.com/wiki-islam-debunked.html

There are things the prophet himself didn't know about the Quran. For example, its numerical consistency (esp. with the number 19) was never once mentioned by him anywhere. The Quran has things for people of the future too and not applicable to Muhammad.

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The 99.9% non verbatim impossible to verify reports are the real issue.
They are only impossible to verify to you . This twisted way you follow also says to deny the entire history because we can't make verify anything at all . Anyone can claim that everything written in history was corrupted and made out of conspiracies . And because you follow your selfish desire , you only discard Sunnah which seems to oppose what you prefer .

Anyone can also claim that was written up in history is true and follow their selfish desire..

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And no it is not a satisfactory state of affair to claim that dozens of "scholars" have declared these reports authentic. In a Taqleedy (to accept without questioning) system it is not difficult to cite dozens of scholars photo copying the work of each other.
Funny , I was reading a book talking about this mentality . What's more funny is that the writer was answering Richard Dawkinz . I guess it's true , similar birds are indeed attracted to each other .
In the book , he mentions how Dawkinz denies a certain incident witnessed by millions of people who saw the sun falling on Earth . He can't deny it . The ones who saw it passed it to the ones after them , and the ones after them passed it to the ones after them in a way that it can't be forged or conspired . Of course , what the people saw wasn't the sun literally falling on Earth , still , you can never deny that they saw the incident .
That's how it was with Sunnah , the prophet peace upon him passed his teachings to the companions whom Quran tells us were truthful and honest . If you want to ignore Quran here because it doesn't suit you , it's your own business . After that , the companions passed them on to the followers . Moreover , even during the time of the prophet himself Hadith was recorded by his order and then after he passed away . What scholars did was using the logical ways Quran mentioned to determine the right from wrong . They wouldn't accept even the slightest possibility that a person would lie even to an animal . Such a thing will make them discard him immediately . And you try to compare this study to a school game - O one who has no shame - and say that there is NO WAY these people remembered every word of what they were told . The simple fact that there are 5 years old during these days memorizing Quran proves you wrong . This is in our days , so what do we say about the prime of the Islamic nation when it wasn't difficult for anyone to remember a poem of 200 parts ? So when you try to make it look like some hypocrites showed up suddenly hundreds of years ago and decided to forge Hadith it's actually out of ignorance of what really happened or stubbornness .
Again , bluffing does nothing .

Its funny how far you went to avoid my point, rather than refuting them, you just called me a conspiracy theorist and said my mindset was awful.

Further, I deny things that are illogical. The sun falling on earth would not make the Earth survive, so I deny it. Simple as that.

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No don't pretend to be angry answer the question. We are not insulting the companions; we are trying to identify the hypocrites among them
Yes you are insulting them and yes it's vulgar . Allah tells us that he's pleased of them and the prophet peace upon him favors a group of them for their faith and morals and willingness and you say that maybe they were "Kuffar" !? What would you feel if I say so about you ? I can easily do so and you can't blame me .

If you think what I said is vulgar, then you must think what the Quran said was vulgar too? Because I didn't say anything, the Quran did.

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How did Bukhari go through 600,000 reports without making a single mistake?
First of all , just because you can't , it doesn't mean others can't . Talking about emotions ? Well , here you are rejecting this simply because you think it's not possible . Maybe you'd deny someone memorizing the entire Quran as well because you think it's impossible . Let me tell you this : It doesn't go the way you like or dislike .
Secondly , Bukhari did make a number of mistakes and so did other scholars . But to claim that they ALL didn't notice forged hadith or sayings , you're then trying to make fun of our intellect and of an entire nation going from the first day of revelation until now after over 1435 years . The entire nation cannot agree on something false .

Its not impossible to memorize the Quran. It is impossible for a human to not make mistakes.

They ALL probably didn't notice forged hadith sayings or mistakes in them because they came from companions they thought were good, but they were really hypocrites.

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Why are these reports not verbatim if they were transmitted by the same people who gave us the 100% verbatim Quran?
The noble Quran is to be kept the same alphabet by alphabet . Allah says so . Sunnah on the other hand is the second source of teachings as it is also a revelation . When it comes to Sunnah , it is the meaning which is kept the same . And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that except for you . a few words with the same exact meaning can be different , a companion may have heard a part from the prophet but not the rest because he left or any other reason , a companion may have seen a part of an incident and the other saw another part and the third as well , nothing's wrong with that at all . If so , bye bye history . Forget history , we won't be able to claim that anything said about someone is true because the word "and" is missing from the story telling of a person and exists in the story of the other ,  or maybe the other one corrupted what the first has said and added "and" .

I think you would make a fine Christian. Putting excuses.

The bible was 'inspired' by God. The hadiths were 'inspired' by God. Although the bible has a lot of corruptions, its basic meanings are intact. Although the hadiths have had many corruptions its meanings are intact.

A companion may have also made a big mistake. Have you ever played the telephone game when you were younger? How often is the message at the end the same as the first?

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Why are so few reports credited to the Prophet's closest companions?
Hold it , come again ? Either I misunderstood or you just made one big fat lie .

Not a lie at all.

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Well , my little cousin used to look at me and say "Why do you tell me to eat with my right hand and you're eating with the left ?" and I answer "It IS my right hand ! It's only your left . If you come here and turn around it will become your right" and he does and then opens his mouth in amazement saying that I can never explain to him how this mysterious phenomenon happens . Guess what happened one year later . On the other hand , I have questions disproving your way which you haven't answered in two weeks or so . Compare this to me answering you right away . I'll copy them - again - at the end of this reply .

Post those questions I haven't answered again, I'm pretty sure I have addressed all of them.

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And I proved to you time and time again that Quran has nothing to do with this ideology . So stop with bluffing , it's really getting ridiculous . We were one sign out of many which you misquote and alter and you still can't see how you brought what contradicts your argument . If this one single point was so fruitless that I keep repeating and you keep ignoring then a question rises about your honesty and your ability to understand outside what you're forced to believe because "Scientists" said it's right .

Here we go again. I have not misquoted, you did, I have shown earlier.

Secondly, irregardless of what you believe about evolution, we are debating the Quranic support. Evolution science itself does not matter, does the Quran support it or not.

Further, scientists didn't only say its right, they actually provided tangible evidence.

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Quran , Sunnah , and science , all of them step on this hypotheses - Yes , I dared and called it so - and prove it wrong all the time . You fail to show a single sign supporting it , you fail to disprove Hadith which discredits it , and the entire gang of evidence-faking pseudoscientists fail to prove evolution and so they judge that whatever happens is because of evolution . 

Wow, extreme level of dishonesty here. Either that or just plain ignorance.

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I swear with the almighty Allah the lord of the great throne and heavens and Earth and what's between them that's you are the one being either dishonest or lying or biased . I said it and I'll say it again : Bluffing does nothing . All these emotional attacks you make on me backed up by nothing are also nothing . I am being honest . The one who's not honest is the one who fears dealing with what contradicts what he wants to believe . Trying to make it look like I blindly follow scholars and say evolution is wrong because they say so is cheap . I believe it's wrong because I saw and keep seeing evidence it's wrong .

Good. I do not do emotional attacks that much, rather I reply to yours with like nature. .

Forget about the science of evolution for a temporary time. Investigate the Quranic support.

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Yes I answered your false explanations both logically and literally . I showed you that "Make good" doesn't in any world mean "Make something better after it was incomplete" . You are the one trying to make his way through this by spamming "You're dishonest , the sign is clear , I give a word for word translation" . And since it's become so pointless to keep going like this , further repentance might make me stop in this subject and just focus on defending Sunnah from your allegations .

And you have not answered them logically or literally!

NO what you did was change the part of speech of Good!

If I make something that I made good. What did I do? Do I even have to repeat it?

Here is a pen. I created it. Then I made it good. What did I do to the pen?

at this point, I hope you aren't being dishonest. I will hope, just ignorant or ignorantly dishonest. A word for word translation is crucial. I didn't like how you just rejected it.

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So if you are to say that the Hadith rejects evolution and we should therefore change the interpretation or meaning of the clear Quran to match Hadiths, then you are just plain wrong.
We don't need to change anything . It is you who needs to change his false ideology and abandon false interpreting of the noble Quran .

And that is what we will debate, If the Quran supports evolution--you have no choice but to discard those hadiths that reject evolution. I will show you. You need to present Quranic verses against evolution and I will continue with its support.

---

Let us begin

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I have shown you already what Quran 32:7 has told us. Creation was perfected, improved upon, made better, made good. It is a form IV verb.

This is also demonstrated in 2 verses I have mentioned earlier

Ex. Quran 40:64 formed you then (fa) made good/better your forms. Further, the word fa here can be used denoting an brief period of time. So it seems as if this verse is telling us that quickly after the initial form of human creation it was made better. This seems to really correspond to our understanding of evolution becuase immediately once the first cell formed it goes through the mechanisms of evolution and thus the ones that survive or get more complex are made better. Secondly, fa can also be used as "thus" linking the two entities. So Allah formed you thus made your form better! This means that Allah has formed you initially in a creation that allows your form to become better/made good. This also seems to be a support for evolution as if we were formed through this process, it would allow us to improve in our creation. Thirdly many translate the word "fa" as And. Again, there is a thing with using 'And' as it separates formation from making formation better. It seems like it provides a time lapse. Why didn't the Quran just somehow tell you that your form is Good rather than implying that your form was made good after it was formed? If you would like to argue that the Quran could use different words to say the same thing, I would immediately say that saying it the way it did in 40:64 is very different from saying "creation is good", then I would say that this is repeated in another verse too (as demonstrated earlier)--so why did the Quran word the same thing the same exact way in two separate verses?! Obviously it wants to tell you that mankind's creation was made through a process.

You swore no dishonesty. I want to see your answer here.

--

Further, I just have a question to you. Allah many times in the Quran has told us many types of creation and how everything was made through a process (Quran 32:7-9 is one example we used) on how the creation of the universe took 6 periods involving stages on how Allah spread out the creation of the universe and how Allah spread out the Earth and how Allah has given us stages in our embryological development. Why would Allah all of suddenly stop forming things by stages and decide to make humans instantly and without stages? Everything that was created was by stages, except humans? What exactly is your answer to that?

Even Jesus's creation--A miraculous birth similar to Adam (Quran 3:59)--involved stages.

How about the fact that the Quran has made it plainly clear that humans were created in stages:  (Quran 71:14)  God created you in stages and how the Quran highlights those stages as being embryology and evolutionary  (Quran 32:7-9, 35:11 etc.)
--

Okay, so let us not resort to anything else. Not Hadiths, not even the scientific evidence for evolution. The Question is, does the Quran support the basic idea of gradual creation of humans. This answer does not depend upon hadiths nor modern science. It is purely Quranic.

So to make it even, empty your bais for Hadiths rejecting evolution and I will empty my bais for the scientific support of evolution. This should level everything out.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 11:28:21 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2013, 07:37:54 AM »
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Secondly, I love your next point, we should discard hadiths that contradict the Quran. Then we got a LOOONG way to go in discarding Hadiths. We can start with the Apostasy ones, the music ones and 'grow your beard ones' and of course the ones that go against evolution  :D.
As I expected . Your reason to refuse Sunnah is simply your personal liking .

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If I follow what I desire, I wouldn't have ever became Muslim. Trust me on that point.
I can't trust you while you're showing else .

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I follow what is reasonable. Chinese whispers are not reasonable to follow.
Since you lack the most basic manner while talking about religion , don't expect respect in return . And we'll see who's words are "abracadabra" for real .

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1.) Nothing says the prophet dealt with All hypocrites--he did do an effort of course
No comment

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Allah would not leave the believers in that [state] you are in [presently] until He separates the evil from the good. Nor would Allah reveal to you the unseen. But [instead], Allah chooses of His messengers whom He wills, so believe in Allah and His messengers. And if you believe and fear Him, then for you is a great reward.

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3.) Now, you bring up a good point here!  Indeed Allah does distinguish the good from the bad and he definitely has aided Muhammad and us, but again, I ask where does it say that all the hypocrites past, present and future have been dealt with. Especially the ones who write hadith?Further, this verse is probably better understood by saying that Allah will actively continue revealing the hypocrites to us. This is a continuous process! This shows that not all hypocrites are being dealt with at once, rather Allah has done so once in the battle of Uhud and he will continue to do so today. It is a continuous process. So all the hypocrites have not really been dealt with.
I'm really not in a good condition right now , and seeing your nonsense makes it worse . Might just bring more aspirin already . A sign says Allah will reveal the evil and good , others say that the prophet did know the hypocrites , and others explain every single characteristic they have . So if you think that after all of this the companions are hypocrites , you ARE the one being hypocrite .

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4.)Indeed there are some companions who were truthful and probably have said good things, but it is obvious by reason and the Quran that there are hypocrites among them.
And it is obvious by Quran and reason as well that there are ways to know them . If you're lazy and hate looking up for that then that's your problem alone .

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Ironically Bukhari's own report clearly points to this fact especially after his, Prophet's Pbuh demise:[/quote
May Allah make the worse demise for you !

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Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "Some of my companions will come to me at my Lake Fount, and after I recognize them, they will then be taken away from me, whereupon I will say, 'My companions!' Then it will be said, 'You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you."
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 76, Hadith 584
Irrelevant . If we go easy with you , the ones mentioned here are some who apostatize after the death of the prophet peace upon him and those are few and countable . And they could be people who lived with the prophet peace upon him but didn't have the same characteristics of the companions which Quran mentioned and so they apostatized . Other sayings support this as the term "My companions" is replaced with "Men whom have been with me" . So no , there are ways to know the hypocrites and Quran - whose innocent of you as I always say - tells us that we should avoid false accusations

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O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.

Let alone if that's with the ones who passed Quran and Sunnah down to us . Accusing them means accusing Quran , there is no way out of this . I told you already , if I accuse you of blasphemy and hypocrisy , you can't say a thing . And as I always repeat of Quran :

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Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest

The believers are only the ones who have believed in Allah and His Messenger and then doubt not but strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah . It is those who are the truthful.

For the poor emigrants who were expelled from their homes and their properties, seeking bounty from Allah and [His] approval and supporting Allah and His Messenger, [there is also a share]. Those are the truthful.

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Again, I have explained why it says "made better". IF you make good everything that you created, what did you do? You made it better
I already explained , I won't waste my breath anymore .

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Quran 40:64 [Allah] formed you THEN (fa) made good your forms
Quran 64:3 formed you then (fa) made good your forms
The signs talk about embryology since it mentions humans all together . It also says Allah formred us which supports that more . Your obsession with evolution is what makes your brain alter whatever it gets to support it . The same thing evolutionists do . They find one measly bone and then have the nerve make imaginary pictures about the creature and its structure and eating habits and whatever comes to mind .

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In arabic (waaw) translates as "and". Thumma and Fa both respectively translate as Then. Fa also carries a meaning of 'thus'. So lets think about it. You were designed..Time lapse..then your design was made good.
The very beginning of your argument is wrong as I just explained , so there's no point in this .

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Was made good. Meaning made better than the initial. Its not rocket science. But it is "unwilling''.
Alright Mr hypocrite , we'll see who's unwilling .

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In Quran 32:7 if Allah wanted to say that creation is good, why did he word it in that way implying that creation was MADE good through a process??
Only the ignorant thinks the sign implies this . We already went through this and it showed some horrible lack of understanding and horrible repeating altogether .

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The sandwhich example was nothing more than an appeal to ridicule, I had no idea that you actually meant something like this. I cannot believe I have to even address it.

Firstly, if I say that I made the sandwhich then I made it good (as the Quran says about creation), That means I improved upon the sandwich.

The reason why your sandwhich Analogy fails is because you use the word "good" as a descriptive adjective! In the Quran it is a VERB. . You can verify it by going to the word for word translation.
Nice attempt to wiggle out of it . And more and more , you prove that you're ignorant of every single thing we use to understand Quran and Sunnah .
The example I made and Quran as well say that Allah made good what he created . Now you as a biased evolutionist would reach for the far and unreasonable meaning that it made something good after it was bad - exalted is Allah from what you describe - but a quick glance at Quran and Sunnah both refute what you desperately want to prove .
And you can keep the word translator to yourself . Verb or not - and even if you make it with a font size of 1000 - it doesn't change a thing . I carry something , that makes it "carried" .

You talk about translators ? Here are multiple explanations and none of them say what you say :
http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?flag=1&bk_no=49&ID=1462
http://www.alro7.net/ayaq.php?langg=arabic&sourid=32&aya=7
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/tabary/sura32-aya7.html

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Now, you are suggesting that the Quran says in 32:7 that creation is Good. If that was the case, why didn't the Quran simply say "Who creates everything Good" or "Everything is created Good" instead of saying "I have made good/better everything which I created" or "I have perfected everything which I created".
Shoot yourself in the head and maybe you can understand .

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So it looks like they agree that it means to make something good/better as a verb. But they, like you, are raised denying evolution in their culture so they deny.
Don't make my hate toward you reach the level of wanting to slap you . I really hate when someone puts words in my mouth . I hate more someone explaining Quran to his desires . If you're so blind as to see what deems you wrong as evidence for you , go to the nearest hospital to check on both your eyes and your brain .

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I think quite the opposite, you need to make a new sect or redefine whatever sect you are in as "non-Quranic".
Opposite of the opposite . Our source of teachings is both Quran and Sunnah . YOU are the new sect which showed up lately to corrupt the religion of people .

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There is NO proof of God. I said before and I will say it again. The Quran does not give proof, it gives ayats!
There's no proof of God = There is no God

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Anyone can also claim that was written up in history is true and follow their selfish desire..
So you admit that we should throw the entire history in garbage because we can't make sure .

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Its funny how far you went to avoid my point, rather than refuting them, you just called me a conspiracy theorist and said my mindset was awful.

Further, I deny things that are illogical. The sun falling on earth would not make the Earth survive, so I deny it. Simple as that.
Yet more shameless acts . Maybe I need to put this right in your face so that you see , but again , I have my doubts you would .

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If you think what I said is vulgar, then you must think what the Quran said was vulgar too? Because I didn't say anything, the Quran did.
Again , Quran is innocent of you .

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They ALL probably didn't notice forged hadith sayings or mistakes in them because they came from companions they thought were good, but they were really hypocrites.
Already refuted .

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I think you would make a fine Christian. Putting excuses.
I think that you're a Jewish man trying to corrupt our religion .


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The bible was 'inspired' by God. The hadiths were 'inspired' by God. Although the bible has a lot of corruptions, its basic meanings are intact. Although the hadiths have had many corruptions its meanings are intact.
Big , fat , lie . First of all , O one who reads not Quran , Allah didn't promise to keep the bible as it was and instead intrusted it to the people of Israel and they corrupted it . Secondly , a huge amount was altered in both meaning and word . Or maybe you believe that the Christ peace upon him was really crucified . Thirdly , Allah promised to keep the revelation safe . The revelation includes BOTH Quran and Sunnah in spite of you and every misguided one who wants us to live like animals .

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Secondly, irregardless of what you believe about evolution, we are debating the Quranic support. Evolution science itself does not matter, does the Quran support it or not.
It doesn't .

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Further, scientists didn't only say its right, they actually provided tangible evidence.
And scientists also said it's a farce :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objections_to_evolution
Everyone can make a claim . But not everyone can prove them .

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Wow, extreme level of dishonesty here. Either that or just plain ignorance.
Back at ya .
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And you have not answered them logically or literally!

NO what you did was change the part of speech of Good!

If I make something that I made good. What did I do? Do I even have to repeat it?

Here is a pen. I created it. Then I made it good. What did I do to the pen?

at this point, I hope you aren't being dishonest. I will hope, just ignorant or ignorantly dishonest. A word for word translation is crucial. I didn't like how you just rejected it.
Now I don't know what to call this fallacy but I'll still explain it . It's the same as someone who goes :
1 - All fruits are yellow
2 - Tomatoes are fruits
3 - So tomatoes are yellow
Now , you refute point one , and he acts like you did nothing and so says "You're dishonest , tomatoes are fruits and so they are yellow" and even if you say it flat out that not all fruits are yellow he'd just repeat that all are indeed yellow .


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How about the fact that the Quran has made it plainly clear that humans were created in stages:  (Quran 71:14)  God created you in stages and how the Quran highlights those stages as being embryology and evolutionary  (Quran 32:7-9, 35:11 etc.)
Have not I told you that your study of Arabic did nothing ? The creation in this one means forming . Evidence for that is the sign which says
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So blessed is Allah , the best of creators.
And if we go with you , it will mean that other than God can create . Pure blasphemy .

I wrote all of this in a hurry . I'll return later - Allah wills - to make a detailed refutation to this and the next post you'll make so that - Allah wills - I can rest my conscience and leave no room that people may be fooled by it .

Offline ThatMuslimGuy

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #51 on: November 06, 2013, 10:07:35 AM »
AsalamuAlaikum,

Im a bit confused why Surah 32:7 is being discussed. It just says Allah made creation good???


32:7
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الَّذِي أَحْسَنَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ خَلَقَهُ ۖ وَبَدَأَ خَلْقَ الْإِنسَانِ مِن طِينٍ


32:7
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Sahih International
Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.
Muhsin Khan
Who made everything He has created good, and He began the creation of man from clay.
Pickthall
Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay;
Yusuf Ali
He Who has made everything which He has created most good: He began the creation of man with (nothing more than) clay,
Shakir
Who made good everything that He has created, and He began the creation of man from dust.

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #52 on: November 06, 2013, 09:55:24 PM »
For the sake of time, I will only respond to Evolutionary points, All points on Hadiths can be saved for a later time.

I've looked back in my previous posts, and I never really noticed I was being rude and very Islamic of me. I'm trying to avoid as much rhetoric as possible, I shouldn't have insulted you in the first place and let this be my apology.

We will still continue evolution as this is an important topic since it goes to the origin of creation.

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Quran 40:64 [Allah] formed you THEN (fa) made good your forms
Quran 64:3 formed you then (fa) made good your forms

The signs talk about embryology since it mentions humans all together . It also says Allah formred us which supports that more

The first sentence you made makes the assumption that Adam's form wasn't made good. you made the predetermined conclusion that Adam was not formed through evolution so you reach the conclusion that it is only talking about embryology. That is a fallacy. You cannot make that assumption, WE cannot make that assumption. We must interpret the Quran through the Quran.

You said that because Allah said "formed' Instead of "created" it is talking about embryology because Adam was not formed. Further, this statement is a factual error, Adam was formed or went through a process of formation:

Allah has created us and he has also formed us.

Quran 38:71-74 "(Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: 'Truly, I am going to create man from clay.
So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.'


Adam was fashioned and was formed.

Quran 7:11 And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], and given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.

So Again, Adam was given form. So he is also included.

So when 40:64 says" Allah formed you and then made good your forms, it is absolutely referring to Adam as well.

So we must conclude that Adam's form was made better and made good from it's previous state. Notice how Allah in 7:11 differentiates creation from giving us form. This should be extremely significant to you because it contrasts creation from giving human form. Then the verse says that humanity was something primitive and then it was given form. After, Adam was given form, Allah told the Angels to prostrate. This is vital to your understanding.



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In arabic (waaw) translates as "and". Thumma and Fa both respectively translate as Then. Fa also carries a meaning of 'thus'. So lets think about it. You were designed..Time lapse..then your design was made good.
The very beginning of your argument is wrong as I just explained , so there's no point in this .

No sir it is not. The Quran explains further in detail that Adam himself went through a process of formation.


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In Quran 32:7 if Allah wanted to say that creation is good, why did he word it in that way implying that creation was MADE good through a process??
Only the ignorant thinks the sign implies this . We already went through this and it showed some horrible lack of understanding and horrible repeating altogether .

Then we will need to go through this again because I've asked innocently to many other Muslims and they tend to support what I first said. I did not bring up evolution though, I just asked for the general meaning. This is important in our understanding. Instead of screaming 'ignorance', state your reasoning. There is a reason why I repeated that statement, either I responded to your reasoning and you missed it/didn't get it or you responded and I didn't get it.

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Nice attempt to wiggle out of it . And more and more , you prove that you're ignorant of every single thing we use to understand Quran and Sunnah .
The example I made and Quran as well say that Allah made good what he created . Now you as a biased evolutionist would reach for the far and unreasonable meaning that it made something good after it was bad - exalted is Allah from what you describe - but a quick glance at Quran and Sunnah both refute what you desperately want to prove .
And you can keep the word translator to yourself . Verb or not - and even if you make it with a font size of 1000 - it doesn't change a thing . I carry something , that makes it "carried" .

You talk about translators ? Here are multiple explanations and none of them say what you say :
http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?flag=1&bk_no=49&ID=1462

http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/tabary/sura32-aya7.html

I wasn't wiggling, I was demonstrating the problem with the english language not using the word "good" as a verb. Further, irrespective of the translation, the verses after talk about HOW Allah made humans good--through a process. This is clearly showing that Allah is starting creation and then making it good/better. Quran 32:9 is the 'good' part. And it was better than the state of Quran 32:8 and that was a better state that he state of clay in 32:7.

So there are 2 ways of interpreting that verse (32:7)

1.) Creation is Good (this verse is saying that Allah's creation is Good)
2.) Creation was made Good (This verse is not only saying Allah's creation is Good, but that it was made Good from its previous state--So everything that Allah has created, Allah has then made it Good.)

The question arises, which interpretation is best?

  • The context of the verse which deals with the steps of creation and how it was made progressively better than the preceding stage tells us that interpretation 2 is best.
  • The other quranic verses which mention that humans were made in stages, each stage more complex and better than the next (be it embryology of evolution) show to favor interpretation 2.
  • The fact that the Quran didn't simply state that creation is Good is also another favor to interpretation 2
  • Quran 40:64 and 64:3 say that we were formed and that form was then made good also favoring interpretation 2 of that verse

This is my rationale.

I also used my brother's account to ask this question in Y/A. Many have further said that 'Ahsana' means to improve upon. So this also favors interpretation 2  ;)

http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AqWOQY04Rbwt86LHC.jFbcjAFQx.;_ylv=3?qid=20131106110058AAj2o8h


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Now, you are suggesting that the Quran says in 32:7 that creation is Good. If that was the case, why didn't the Quran simply say "Who creates everything Good" or "Everything is created Good" instead of saying "I have made good/better everything which I created" or "I have perfected everything which I created".
Shoot yourself in the head and maybe you can understand .

I still feel it is a valid point. Please address it.

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Don't make my hate toward you reach the level of wanting to slap you . I really hate when someone puts words in my mouth . I hate more someone explaining Quran to his desires . If you're so blind as to see what deems you wrong as evidence for you , go to the nearest hospital to check on both your eyes and your brain .

I explain the Quran plainly by what it says. I do not have a 'desire'. I already said that if I was following my desire, I would have never became Muslim in the first place.

Put yourself in my older position, Imagine you are this happy Atheist with no restrictions and you feel confident about your beliefs. And then Imagine investigating a religion and finding out that it makes a lot of sense. Imagine going to anti-Islamic sites just to relieve your insecurity of Islam. This was me many years back. I had to tell myself that I must look at both sides of the argument and I have to be honest. That is how I structure all my beliefs.

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Secondly, irregardless of what you believe about evolution, we are debating the Quranic support. Evolution science itself does not matter, does the Quran support it or not.
It doesn't .

I already know your position and you already know my position. We are both on a quest of knowledge in this debate.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objections_to_evolution
Everyone can make a claim . But not everyone can prove them .

Like I said, we are not debating the science of evolution, I will gladly do that to you in a later time. Science debate is my favorite type, but, right now we are just doing Quran.


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Now I don't know what to call this fallacy but I'll still explain it . It's the same as someone who goes :
1 - All fruits are yellow
2 - Tomatoes are fruits
3 - So tomatoes are yellow
Now , you refute point one , and he acts like you did nothing and so says "You're dishonest , tomatoes are fruits and so they are yellow" and even if you say it flat out that not all fruits are yellow he'd just repeat that all are indeed yellow .

I have dealt with this earlier.

1-two things that say the same thing are complimenting each other on that thing
2-The Quran says that creation was made good through a process (in 32:7-9)
3-Evolution says that creation was made more complex (good) through a process
Conclusion: The Quran and evolution are complimenting each other.

Excuse the wording, its very late..

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How about the fact that the Quran has made it plainly clear that humans were created in stages:  (Quran 71:14)  God created you in stages and how the Quran highlights those stages as being embryology and evolutionary  (Quran 32:7-9, 35:11 etc.)
Have not I told you that your study of Arabic did nothing ? The creation in this one means forming . Evidence for that is the sign which says
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So blessed is Allah , the best of creators.
And if we go with you , it will mean that other than God can create . Pure blasphemy .

I have dealt with this before. Humanity (including Adam) was created AND formed. I have demonstrated this earlier.

I don't understand how it will mean that other than God can create. I don't recall saying that.

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I wrote all of this in a hurry . I'll return later - Allah wills - to make a detailed refutation to this and the next post you'll make so that - Allah wills - I can rest my conscience and leave no room that people may be fooled by it .

I look forward to it.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 10:07:59 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2013, 10:07:30 PM »
AsalamuAlaikum,

Im a bit confused why Surah 32:7 is being discussed. It just says Allah made creation good???


32:7
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الَّذِي أَحْسَنَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ خَلَقَهُ ۖ وَبَدَأَ خَلْقَ الْإِنسَانِ مِن طِينٍ


32:7
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Sahih International
Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.
Muhsin Khan
Who made everything He has created good, and He began the creation of man from clay.
Pickthall
Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay;
Yusuf Ali
He Who has made everything which He has created most good: He began the creation of man with (nothing more than) clay,
Shakir
Who made good everything that He has created, and He began the creation of man from dust.

It does just say that Allah made creation Good.

We are debating whether this means that:

Allah's creation is Good.
or
Allah's creation was made good after its initial design

Through support of other quranic verses and the contexts of that verse (read my previous post), I support the latter view that everything in which Allah has created was then made Good.

Further, the Sahih international translation you posted up there uses the word "perfected" so those scholars agree with the latter too.

We need to determine what is the more probable explanation, and in my defense, the context and the verses right after tell me that humans were made better. First there was a stage in which we were nothing more than an extract of clay (32:7), then we were sexually capable (32:8), then we were fasioned and proportioned and given higher consciousness (Quran 32:9). The later stages are better than the preceding ones, this also favors the interpretation that this verse is saying that Allah makes creation better.

Further, even if we look at the embryology, you see stages in which Allah makes humanity better than the preceding stage.

(Quran 23:14) Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah , the best of creators.

This "another creation" was it made better than its original forms? Yes, it was made better. This also supports the latter interpretation of 32:7. So Allah is he who makes everything he created better. Quran 23:14 shows you an example of how this happens and Quran 32:8-9 show you another example.

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2013, 07:19:00 AM »
I can finally rest my conscious . That's unless I see more things which need to be shown for what they really are .


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I've looked back in my previous posts, and I never really noticed I was being rude and very Islamic of me. I'm trying to avoid as much rhetoric as possible, I shouldn't have insulted you in the first place and let this be my apology.
Your insults to me were nothing and I just shoved them aside . What really makes me angry is the lack of manner with everything in Islam . Quran , Sunnah , Nation , and even the prophet peace upon him !

I'll make it quick and clear . The verb "Ahsana" in no world means to make something better where it's mentioned in Quran . If you ridicule the example of the sandwich , here's an Arabic one . "يا ولدي أحسن صنع هذه الجرة" = "O my son , make good this jar" . Your explanation is completely wrong . If the verb here means to be good at making the jar , or to make the jar in a good way . The jar doesn't even exist yet . He's "Yuhsinuha" while making it . So now , the fallacy of

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1 - All fruits are yellow
2 - Tomatoes are fruits
3 - Tomatoes are yellow

ends here .

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Quran 38:71-74 "(Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: 'Truly, I am going to create man from clay.
So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.'

Adam was fashioned and was formed.
Indeed , I made a wrong choice of words . Father Adam - and not your buddy "Adam" - was formed out of the clay of Earth . STILL , I won't let you jump the gun and act like I admit evolution . The story of creating father Adam peace upon him is clear through Quran and Sunnah . Allah made him first of dust , then out of mud - dust with water - then out of clay - solid dry mud . And then a soul was poured into him . Iblees was ordered to bow down to him but refused out of arrogance . So he was cursed for and driven out of paradise . Father Adam and mother Hawwa peace upon the two of them lived in paradise comfortable and were ordered to not go near a certain tree or a type of a certain tree . Iblees provoked them into disobeying Allah and we know the rest . Nowhere is evolution mentioned .

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So Again, Adam was given form. So he is also included.

So when 40:64 says" Allah formed you and then made good your forms, it is absolutely referring to Adam as well.
Considering how I explained what "Ahsana" mean , this point holds no value .

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Then we will need to go through this again because I've asked innocently to many other Muslims and they tend to support what I first said
Then read the part of the literal meaning . And I told you , keep this testimony to yourself . I also asked - and didn't bring evolution - and got the same explanation from native Arabic speakers . And if we ask scholars and Arabic teachers , we'd get the same meaning . So this whole idea of "People agree with me" would actually go against you .

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Instead of screaming 'ignorance', state your reasoning.
I did before and did it again just now .

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I wasn't wiggling, I was demonstrating the problem with the english language not using the word "good" as a verb.
Fair enough . What would you say about the Arabic example ?

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Further, irrespective of the translation, the verses after talk about HOW Allah made humans good--through a process. This is clearly showing that Allah is starting creation and then making it good/better. Quran 32:9 is the 'good' part. And it was better than the state of Quran 32:8 and that was a better state that he state of clay in 32:7.
Still with the fruit and tomatoes problem I see . I made my refutation to the underlined part . As for the rest , it's the same with sign 7 . You take it as that Allah couldn't make something perfect and needed to "evolve" it . Sign 8 says that the lineage - posterity - was later made out of measly water which is sperm . Evolution isn't mentioned here in anyway . All what the sign says is that after creating father Adam and mother Hawwa peace upon them , their children were then made to be born through the mentioned way . And if you try to oppose this and say "But the sign after it says that a soul was then blown into human so it can't mean the children" I'll need to correct you . It can . It can mean that after Allah made us to be born of the aforementioned way , we were to have souls poured in us and given our senses . And if it still means father Adam , still no evolution in the way you desire . It simply means that during forming father Adam - the way Quran and Sunnah say - Allah made his lineage to be formed in a different way than his own creation . In the end , no evolution .

So there are 2 ways of interpreting that verse (32:7)

1.) Creation is Good (this verse is saying that Allah's creation is Good)
2.) Creation was made Good (This verse is not only saying Allah's creation is Good, but that it was made Good from its previous state--So everything that Allah has created, Allah has then made it Good.)

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The question arises, which interpretation is best?

    The context of the verse which deals with the steps of creation and how it was made progressively better than the preceding stage tells us that interpretation 2 is best.
    The other quranic verses which mention that humans were made in stages, each stage more complex and better than the next (be it embryology of evolution) show to favor interpretation 2.
    The fact that the Quran didn't simply state that creation is Good is also another favor to interpretation 2
    Quran 40:64 and 64:3 say that we were formed and that form was then made good also favoring interpretation 2 of that verse

This is my rationale.
I'd have to say that your rationale isn't rational really . I already explained .

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I also used my brother's account to ask this question in Y/A. Many have further said that 'Ahsana' means to improve upon. So this also favors interpretation 2  ;)

http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AqWOQY04Rbwt86LHC.jFbcjAFQx.;_ylv=3?qid=20131106110058AAj2o8h
If you were really honest and looked at the other guy's answer , you wouldn't have said this . First of all I told you , saying "people agree with me" doesn't help you . Secondly , the other answer there says

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It can mean to do a task well/best/perfect

which is what you totally ignore . Another answer says

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Yes, more or less you are correct.
it is used in the Quran over and over again with this meaning attached to it.
it also is used to mean "who is better" i.e. "waman ahsanu"
meaning that the person doing this (whatever action the verse happens to be referring to, lots of verses say this) is among the best of people.
which means to make something "Better than others" . As in doing what you do better than what others would do . And the example he used goes according to what I just said . So no , he wasn't in agreement with you . And the one before the last one says

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Close but not totally correct, make something better would mean hassana (same root)
ahsana would mean did a good job or did it well
it can also mean who is better. It depends on the sentence
which is 100% not in your favor ! The last one says

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It means reform or reclaim or something like that.
which is completely wrong and unrelated .

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I still feel it is a valid point. Please address it.
Already did in this post .

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I explain the Quran plainly by what it says. I do not have a 'desire'. I already said that if I was following my desire, I would have never became Muslim in the first place.
There are Muslims who follow their desires too . They are the same who deny the marriage of lady Aisha Allah be pleased of her because it doesn't suit their "tastes" . And no matter how much you prove to them that it's scientifically and historically OK , they'd still deny it because it's simply not going with what they like . Another example is of those who say that Jews and Christians will go to paradise because Allah is merciful . So yes , just being a Muslim doesn't mean a person never follows what he desires .

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Put yourself in my older position, Imagine you are this happy Atheist with no restrictions and you feel confident about your beliefs. And then Imagine investigating a religion and finding out that it makes a lot of sense. Imagine going to anti-Islamic sites just to relieve your insecurity of Islam. This was me many years back. I had to tell myself that I must look at both sides of the argument and I have to be honest. That is how I structure all my beliefs.
Well that explains a lot . Like how you try to defend evolution at all costs . You wanted to believe Islam is right but you didn't want to think of a second that just "MAYBE" evolution is wrong . For that reason , you try to make it look like Quran and this ideology are matching . Yeah , I know the type and know what it's like although I wasn't an Atheist neither have I been anything but a Muslim since I was born . Back then , I would hear a slander and an allegation against Islam , and because I don't know how to respond , because I didn't want to think much , I would just say "You're lying , there is no such thing in Islam" even if it was of its basis . That way of thinking is what makes some people deny the forbidding of pork . They hear that "scientists" proved pigs are clean - yeah right ! - and that Islam is wrong when it forbids it .

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Like I said, we are not debating the science of evolution, I will gladly do that to you in a later time. Science debate is my favorite type, but, right now we are just doing Quran.
When it comes to biology I would leave that to any interlocutor who knows better than me . But I still hold my own when it comes to Quran . So , science is your favorite , huh ? You'd be shocked .

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I have dealt with this earlier.

1-two things that say the same thing are complimenting each other on that thing
2-The Quran says that creation was made good through a process (in 32:7-9)
3-Evolution says that creation was made more complex (good) through a process
Conclusion: The Quran and evolution are complimenting each other.

Excuse the wording, its very late..
Well , you just repeated the same thing I said you do ! After all this explaining of the meaning of "Ahsana" and how that evolution isn't mentioned anywhere , you still go from point 2 as if I wasn't just talking about point one .

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I have dealt with this before. Humanity (including Adam) was created AND formed. I have demonstrated this earlier.

I don't understand how it will mean that other than God can create. I don't recall saying that.
This one was my mistake indeed . Father Adam was formed . I already said so in this post . As for forming and creating out of nothing , I'll explain . In Arabic , the word is "Khalaqa" which means "He created OR He formed or shaped" . When it comes to forming , Allah forms and so do his creatures with his will . That's why in tactical battles we say "create an opening" . But when it comes to creating out of nothing , ONLY Allah can do this . That's why in our world we have the law of "Energy doesn't perish or appear out of nothing" . Translated from the Arabic law so it might differ .

I'll stop here . I did what I have to and can do and the rest is to people . More ongoing would be circling around .

Before that , I'll give you a note . When you talk about the best of mankind , prophet Muhammad peace upon him , it's vulgar to call him "Muhammad" as if talking about your little brother . The same goes to the rest of prophets peace upon them all including father Adam .

Allah knows best .

Offline Koray

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2013, 12:08:05 PM »
After reading through most of your posts i favor brother Black Muslim. Brother Mclinkin94 you almost got me into thinking that Quran supported evolution. Brother Black Muslim your latest reply was perfect. Keep up the good work. But you guys should seriously consider keeping replies a bit short. It though for most of your readers to read Encyclopedias just to keep up with whats going on. Other than that you guys rock. All of you! Thank you.

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2013, 05:57:17 PM »
@Black Muslim, here is my detailed Analysis of the Quran and here is why it, without question, supports creation of mankind involving steps.

I would like us to proceed without your insults, it would be easier for the both of us. I simply don't have time to drop by in all of these forums, manage my personal life, and working on my blogs. If we could do without you keep insulting me and saying I am not following he Sunnah, Quran nation etc. I present Quranic verses in light of other verses and science. Simple as that. If this is fraudulent, then I don't know how you made that determination.

Lets begin with the verse in question:

Quran 32:7-9 Who made good that which He created and began the creation of man from clay, Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained, Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

What you did not get before is that irrespective of the translation of "ahsana" (wheter it means creation is good or creation was made good) the Quran says the same thing!

If you want to translate 32:7 as everything that is created is good. The verses after show the process in which Allah makes you good. So you were made good though a process

If you want to translate 32:7 as everything that is created was made good through a process. The verses after show the process and how creation was made good.

Both of them share one thing in common--A process of creation. Involving steps and stages. Just as the Quran says:

(Quran 71:14)  Allah has created you in stages

What are these stages? Those stages were highlighted in the embryology verses and in the initial creation of man verses like 32:7-9.

Further we have this:

(Quran 64:3) He designed you THEN (fa) made your design good.
(Quran 40:64) He formed you THEN (fa) made your form good.


^The question we answered before is why was "fa" used instead of "thumma" to denote then? Thumma is used when a long period of time is needed for a sequential event. Fa is used when it is a shorter period of time, so it is relative. In both of those verses above, if you notice it talks about creation of the universe or the earth right before. This means that compared to the time it took for the creation of the universe or earth to form, the designing then formation of humans was pretty quick. (Side note, if we were formed and then that form was made good, what happened to that initial form? It was made better.)

Further we have this CLEAR verse:

Quran 7:11 And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], THEN (thumma) given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.

The word Thumma (then) is vital for your interpretation of this verse. We were created, THEN we got proportioned/given form!

So again a process of proportioning was involved in the creation of Adam himself in this verse. So here you have a case in which creation was made better. Just like Quran 32:7 on how Allah makes everything he created BETTER. In 7:11, you have Allah creating us THEN making that creation good/better.

Side note: Who is Adam? Adam would be the father or first of the last group of humans who got sexually isolated from the other hominids)

Can anybody seriously start denying after this that the creation of humans did not involve stages?? Especially when Quran 7:11 clearly tells us Adam's creation itself involved stages.

It is clear here that the Quran has said that the creation of humans was not an instant creation, it was a creation that involved stages of proportioning. What are these stages? These stages are highlighted in Quran 32:7.

Now, I will respond to your post in my next post.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 12:18:23 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2013, 06:59:14 PM »
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I'll make it quick and clear . The verb "Ahsana" in no world means to make something better where it's mentioned in Quran . If you ridicule the example of the sandwich , here's an Arabic one . "يا ولدي أحسن صنع هذه الجرة" = "O my son , make good this jar" . Your explanation is completely wrong . If the verb here means to be good at making the jar , or to make the jar in a good way . The jar doesn't even exist yet . He's "Yuhsinuha" while making it .

2 problems with your statement. First, explain why sahih international translated "Ahsana" as 'perfected' rather than good? Secondly, I have shown you in my previous post that irrespective of the translation the next verses either way show you that creation was made good through a process.

Further, look at the embryology verses:

(Quran 23:14) Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah , the best of creators.

This, "new" creation, what is it compared to the others? IT was perfected, it was made better, it was proportioned.

So if you said: Oh brother, make good this jar. It could mean improve it, or build it good. But if you say: Make good this jar and begin its creation. Then you should put the molten glass into a tube and then wet the tube to make the jar and cover it up with the lid. What exactly just happened? You made the Jar good through a process.

What if I say, that I have made the sandwich then I have made it good (as compared to how Allah said in 40:64 and 7:11). What did I do to that sandwhich? I made it better than its original. Now imagine, the word for 'made it good' can be validly translated as 'made it better' (as we have seen the Arabic word 'ahsana' can mean both). Which translation would you chose? Which translation makes more sense?

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Indeed , I made a wrong choice of words . Father Adam - and not your buddy "Adam" - was formed out of the clay of Earth . STILL , I won't let you jump the gun and act like I admit evolution . The story of creating father Adam peace upon him is clear through Quran and Sunnah . Allah made him first of dust , then out of mud - dust with water - then out of clay - solid dry mud . And then a soul was poured into him . Iblees was ordered to bow down to him but refused out of arrogance . So he was cursed for and driven out of paradise . Father Adam and mother Hawwa peace upon the two of them lived in paradise comfortable and were ordered to not go near a certain tree or a type of a certain tree . Iblees provoked them into disobeying Allah and we know the rest . Nowhere is evolution mentioned .

We are debating whether humans were created gradually or not, read my previous posts. If the Quran says that humans were created gradually, then you can say that the basic idea of evolution (Gradual creation) is supported in the Quran. Then you could say that the Quran does not contradict evolution and you can be a Muslim believing evolution. Then you examine the science of evolution and determine whether it makes sense--you do this knowing that the Quran supports its basic idea.

 But, good you are getting closer to the truth. But you also missed my point. Adam was also proportioned..meaning he was made through a process...AFTER sexual reproduction. Re-read 32:7-9. Adam was proportioned AFTER Allah created sexual reproduction. That was my point that you completely overlooked.

Now, there is no Quranic indication that Adam was first made of dust then clay...no! Clay and dust are metaphorical, they both symbolize basic compounds from the earth. Allah uses clay and dust and earth interchangeably to denote the same thing. That hadith interpretation is just what the Muslims back then thought. Further you forgot many other points in the creation of Adam. Adam was proportioned.

But you missed another point of creation. Adam was also proportioned/created in a process.

(Quran 7:11) And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], THEN given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.

Further, you also missed a large mistake in one place:

(Quran 35:11) And Allah did create you from dust; then from a reproductive fluid; then He made you in pairs

We were made in pairs after reproductive fluid. That means that Adam and Eve the first pair, were made out of what?

Further you forgot another point:

(Quran 71:14)  God created you in stages

Stages explained at:

Quran 32:7 Who made good everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

This verse is linking the process creation being made good/better to the creation of mankind. This is implying that mankind was formed in the same manner. A process of making creation good/better (ahsana). Not only that, that verse also uses the word for "BEGAN", this further implies the process of making everything Allah created better. So the creation of man from earth began and Allah will make it better to complete the human

Quran 32:8 Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained..

The verse right after says that AFTER the beginning of the creation of man, sexual reproduction formed. This is an improvement. A process of making creation better.

Quran 32:9 Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

After sexual reproduction, you got further proportioned (MADE BETTER!) and given higher consciousness (MADE BETTER!).

Remember, you just agreed that Quran 32:9's proportioning applies to Adam. So you must say that Adam was proportioned after sexual reproduction by sexual reproduction because Quran 32:9 used the word "then". In this case, you testify that Adam had a father. If Adam had a father and Adam is the human that resembled us in species and the first of our species, then you testify that Adam's father is not of the same form as Adam. His father was slightly different. If this is the case then you have just agreed with science!

(Note: Adam would be the father of the last group of humans who got sexually isolated from the other hominids).

Side note: the Quran affirms the existence of other hominids on earth before US!

Quran 10:13-14 And We had already destroyed generations before you when they wronged, and their messengers had come to them with clear proofs, but they were not to believe. Thus do We recompense the criminal people. Then We made you successors in the Earth after them so that We may observe how you will do.

^This verse is addressing ALL of mankind. We ALL were successors after those criminal people in the Earth. To further prove this point:

Quran 2:30  when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successor[/u]

These two verses are complementary. Who were we succeeding in Quran 2:30? Other generations of hominids.

This is also further reiterated in this verse:

(Quran 6.133)  If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to WHATEVER He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people.

So in the end Quran 32:9 makes it clear that Adam (we) descended from something as he was born through sexual reproduction.

Further this verse explicitly calls Adam a descendant.

(Quran 3:33-34) "Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds. DESCENDANTS, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing"

THE WORDS OF ALLAH ARE NOT CIRCUMSCRIBED BY TIME,
ALTHOUGH INTERPRETATIONS ARE...

 
One may be inclined to question why no commentator of the Qur'an had in the past
written about any generation of "Mankind" living upon this earth before the creation of ADAM, in reference to the above quoted verses number10: 13 and 14 of the Qur'an?
 
ANSWER:
"For every (revealed) tiding there is a term set for its fulfillment
and in time you will come to know." Qur'an 6: 67.


"Now they have denied (the Truth); but there will come unto them tidings of the reality whereat they used to scoff." Qur'an 26: 6. 
 
TRADITIONAL BELIEVERS MAY SEEK TO DENY THESE
SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES...
 
A reader who is influenced by the age old traditional beliefs and/or by the popular Biblical Story of Creation that has found its place within the HADITHS (e.g. a questionable narration attributed the Prophet and compiled by Muslim under #039.6707 which records; Allah began the creation with clay on Saturday and ended it with Adam on Friday after the noon-prayer), may reject all the earlier presented arguments and claim; Allah had Created ADAM at the same time or rather in the same week, that He created every thing on this Earth. He/she may have no interest in pursuing scientific discoveries which in reality Glorify the Qur'an and conclusively prove that the Qur'an is not a copy of the Jewish/Christian Testaments.

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So when 40:64 says" Allah formed you and then made good your forms, it is absolutely referring to Adam as well.
Considering how I explained what "Ahsana" mean , this point holds no value .

I have already shown you that others say that Ahsana means to improve and I have shown you the lexicons and everything. But not only that I have even went with your translation to even show you how it even means. Fine, lets go with your translation (although I don't like it). Creation was made good...through a process. Still evolution was being pointed at.

So Quran 40:64 is IMPORTANT Because Adams form DID involve a process and WAS made better as I keep showing you verses about it.

 .
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I wasn't wiggling, I was demonstrating the problem with the english language not using the word "good" as a verb.
Fair enough . What would you say about the Arabic example ?

I say it doesn't matter, although I still like the translation of "better" better than "good". Either way, creation was made good/better through a process.

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Further, irrespective of the translation, the verses after talk about HOW Allah made humans good--through a process. This is clearly showing that Allah is starting creation and then making it good/better. Quran 32:9 is the 'good' part. And it was better than the state of Quran 32:8 and that was a better state that he state of clay in 32:7.

Still with the fruit and tomatoes problem I see . I made my refutation to the underlined part . As for the rest , it's the same with sign 7 . You take it as that Allah couldn't make something perfect and needed to "evolve" it . Sign 8 says that the lineage - posterity - was later made out of measly water which is sperm . Evolution isn't mentioned here in anyway . All what the sign says is that after creating father Adam and mother Hawwa peace upon them , their children were then made to be born through the mentioned way . And if you try to oppose this and say "But the sign after it says that a soul was then blown into human so it can't mean the children" I'll need to correct you . It can . It can mean that after Allah made us to be born of the aforementioned way , we were to have souls poured in us and given our senses . And if it still means father Adam , still no evolution in the way you desire . It simply means that during forming father Adam - the way Quran and Sunnah say - Allah made his lineage to be formed in a different way than his own creation . In the end , no evolution .

It doesn't matter what Allah could or couldn't do, Allah creates in whatever manner he chooses and according to the Quranic verses, his creation involved a process. .

Further, this is an attempt from you to make the Quran conform to your pre-suppositions governed by hadiths. We have established that not all hadiths are true and we are to eliminate those who go against the Quran. So hadiths are constantly in question, we are not to just blindly abide by them. So please pretend you have never read any hadith before continuing. After all the Quran says it is fully detailed.

Yes verse 32:8 does say that posterity was made from semen. But you disregarded the verse right after it (Quran 32:9). AFTER sexual reproduction happened, we (including Adam) were proportioned and given higher intelligence. So this verse CANNOT be interpreted by saying that Only Adam's posterity was made from sperm. NO! Adam himself was made from it too! Notice the word THEN in Quran 32:9. After sexual reproduction, Allah then proportioned Adam/humans and given us higher intelligence.

Why do I say that Quran 32:9 also applies to Adam, because Adam was proportioned and given form and given hearing and sight and (as you said earlier) given part of God's spirit! That is what Quran 32:9 says. There is simply now way out of this. Proof that Adam was proportioned and given a soul:

(Quran 38:71-72) And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: I am going to create a human (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.


(Quran 7:11) And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], then given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, Prostrate to Adam; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.

So you must conclude that Adam was created after sexual reproduction by sexual reproduction. Do you get it, sorry for the bad wording! I hope you can see my reasoning.

So in the end, yes, evolution. It was in-fact beautifully worded and it was perfectly ordered. That is exactly how it happened! Humans were formed from the Earth, after a while creatures were able to sexually reproduce, through sexual reproduction more variation was able to form and thus this allows the higher improvement of the creatures so that it develops higher intelligence! How ACCURATE this is is absolutely amazing! And you are desperately trying to take this miraculous verse and give it a different meaning besides its clear implication!

Allah BEGAN (bad'aa) the creation of humans. What does that by itself apply? By itself-it says that humanity was not an instant creation and involved stages! Further, I have researched this some more, many many arabic speakers even classical lexicons continue to agree that Ahsana used as a very means improved upon/perfected. Further it makes sense in the context of those verses. But I say again, irrespective of whether it means good/improved upon, it says that creation was made in stages.

Further there are many many verses that show that Humans (Adam included) were created from semen/embryo. This further proves my point:

(Quran 16:4) He created man from a sperm-drop;
(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from ALAQ


Is Allah ever short of words? He is clear, All of mankind was created from semen and ALAQ. This includes Adam.

Another point that proves my point:

(Quran 35:11) And Allah did create you from dust; then from a reproductive fluid; then He made you in pairs

Humanity was made in pairs AFTER reproductive fluid creation. Who was the first pair to be like us? Adam/Eve. They were created AFTER and from a reproductive fluid.

To further prove my point the Quran says that:

Quran 3:59 Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.

Was Jesus created instantly? NO. Even though Allah said "be and he was", Jesus was formed in the womb and developed as a baby. If this is similar to Adam, then Adam was created in stages too. Further, we also assert that Adam was also created in a womb. Further, we may also assert that Adam may have not had a father intervention. But either way, they were both created in stages.

So what does Allah mean in this verse when he says "Be and he was"? It seems to point to some kind of event happening at the womb, perhaps a genetic event, a mutation maybe? I'm not sure. We KNOW that Allah works through science, we observe it everyday.

But my point is, if Jesus' creation is that of Adam, and Jesus was created in stages, then Adam was too.

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So there are 2 ways of interpreting that verse (32:7)

1.) Creation is Good (this verse is saying that Allah's creation is Good)
2.) Creation was made Good (This verse is not only saying Allah's creation is Good, but that it was made Good from its previous state--So everything that Allah has created, Allah has then made it Good.)

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The question arises, which interpretation is best?

    The context of the verse which deals with the steps of creation and how it was made progressively better than the preceding stage tells us that interpretation 2 is best.
    The other quranic verses which mention that humans were made in stages, each stage more complex and better than the next (be it embryology of evolution) show to favor interpretation 2.
    The fact that the Quran didn't simply state that creation is Good is also another favor to interpretation 2
    Quran 40:64 and 64:3 say that we were formed and that form was then made good also favoring interpretation 2 of that verse

This is my rationale.
I'd have to say that your rationale isn't rational really . I already explained .

By simply saying that you already explained and then insulting my rationale that I newly mentioned to you, you really didn't do anything. Its like you read it, and then you just disregarded it. Explain again. This thing you did is just to gain rhetorical power. It may be good for you or others, but not for me.

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I also used my brother's account to ask this question in Y/A. Many have further said that 'Ahsana' means to improve upon. So this also favors interpretation 2  ;)

http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AqWOQY04Rbwt86LHC.jFbcjAFQx.;_ylv=3?qid=20131106110058AAj2o8h
If you were really honest and looked at the other guy's answer , you wouldn't have said this . First of all I told you , saying "people agree with me" doesn't help you .

I looked at all answers. I never said people agree with me, firstly I showed you that sahih international worded this verse in a way that also supports me. You keep crying 'ignorance' whenever I make a point, so I simply showed you that I am not. If you even read further, you would have seen me say that both interprtations that "ahsana" either means creation is good or that creation was improved are valid because they are both valid meanings of the word. Further, I have shown the translation does not at all hinder Quranic support for gradual creation.

I keep repeating that irrespective of the translation it does not matter. Creation involved stages, simple as that. Read the verses after 32:7

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It can mean to do a task well/best/perfect

which is what you totally ignore . Another answer says

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Yes, more or less you are correct.
it is used in the Quran over and over again with this meaning attached to it.
it also is used to mean "who is better" i.e. "waman ahsanu"
meaning that the person doing this (whatever action the verse happens to be referring to, lots of verses say this) is among the best of people.
which means to make something "Better than others" . As in doing what you do better than what others would do . And the example he used goes according to what I just said . So no , he wasn't in agreement with you . And the one before the last one says

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Close but not totally correct, make something better would mean hassana (same root)
ahsana would mean did a good job or did it well
it can also mean who is better. It depends on the sentence
which is 100% not in your favor !

 


Now you said that some of them are 100% not in my favor. Nope. Only one of the answers are not in my favor: This one would be to "reform".

The other ones work in my favor. Go back to the link. The best answer works to my favor. User: Runformylife has said that it could be used as a superlative. user:الأحبار, said that I am correct more or less--you said he is not in my favor, what? User: Radroud: (he is a Lebanese non-Muslim-good because he is unbaised) says that it may mean who is 'better'. So I have no idea how you said they are all against my favor. They all testify (except one) that it could carry the meaning of "better" or "improved upon". Further sahih international has used another valid translation of 'Ahsana' which means to improve upon. So we are both right.

But, for the 6th time, It does not matter. But, just so that you don't think you walked out with triumph and start going throwing a rhetorical bomb claiming I am a Kaffir, nonmuslim, ignorant, I must show you you are wrong again.. Many in that said that it means to do good, to be better, to improve upon or to make well. That is what they all said. What does that tell you? It tells you that Ahsana is a general word that either means to make good or make better. And I keep saying that either way, the Quran supports creation with a process. Made good or made better, they are both valid. I feel that judging by the context, better is the best translation. But, again, it simply does not matter and we really should have not been spending this much time on the same topic.

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There are Muslims who follow their desires too . They are the same who deny the marriage of lady Aisha Allah be pleased of her because it doesn't suit their "tastes" . And no matter how much you prove to them that it's scientifically and historically OK , they'd still deny it because it's simply not going with what they like . Another example is of those who say that Jews and Christians will go to paradise because Allah is merciful . So yes , just being a Muslim doesn't mean a person never follows what he desires .

Another example is BlackMuslim who denies the Quran supports that humans were formed in stages so that he could follow his desires when the Quran plainly says:

(Quran 71:14)  God created you in diverse stages
(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.
(Quran 64:3) He designed you THEN made your design better/good
(Quran 40:63) formed you THEN made your form better/good


And the verse that shows that Adam was proportioned:

(Quran 7:11) And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], THEN given you [human] form. THEN We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.

And then you have Quran 32:7-9 making it clear that humanity's creation had a process.

And then you say I am the one following my desires.

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Well that explains a lot . Like how you try to defend evolution at all costs . You wanted to believe Islam is right but you didn't want to think of a second that just "MAYBE" evolution is wrong . For that reason , you try to make it look like Quran and this ideology are matching . Yeah , I know the type and know what it's like although I wasn't an Atheist neither have I been anything but a Muslim since I was born . Back then , I would hear a slander and an allegation against Islam , and because I don't know how to respond , because I didn't want to think much , I would just say "You're lying , there is no such thing in Islam" even if it was of its basis . That way of thinking is what makes some people deny the forbidding of pork . They hear that "scientists" proved pigs are clean - yeah right ! - and that Islam is wrong when it forbids it .

That is what we are debating. You completely misinterpreted what I said. I didn't want to become a muslim. You accused me of following my desires adn I show you that I do not. I follow what is rational. If I wanted to follow my desires, then I would have never been muslim.

Further, you interpretation is factually incorrect. You think you know me better than I do.

Scientists have not proved pigs are clean, they have proved that pigs raised in cleaner environments are cleaner.


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1-two things that say the same thing are complimenting each other on that thing
2-The Quran says that creation was made good through a process (in 32:7-9)
3-Evolution says that creation was made more complex (good) through a process
Conclusion: The Quran and evolution are complimenting each other.

Excuse the wording, its very late..
Well , you just repeated the same thing I said you do ! After all this explaining of the meaning of "Ahsana" and how that evolution isn't mentioned anywhere , you still go from point 2 as if I wasn't just talking about point one .

You still simply don't get it! Ahsana could mean BOTH of those things--creation was improved or made good. It doesn't matter anyway. I have presented my reasoning why saying it is better translated as "better" through quranic context, and you haven't responded.

You made like some kind of false connection here. You say that by proving "Ahsana" can ONLY be interpreted as meaning "creation is good" (which is wrong, I have shown you a scholar interpretation and other opinions of the varying meanings of Ahsana), but you say that that hinders the Quranic teaching of evolution! Wrong!

Lets say it means "creation is good", what do the verses after say? That creation BEGAN and Allah made it Good and made it more complex!

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This one was my mistake indeed . Father Adam was formed . I already said so in this post . As for forming and creating out of nothing , I'll explain . In Arabic , the word is "Khalaqa" which means "He created OR He formed or shaped" . When it comes to forming , Allah forms and so do his creatures with his will . That's why in tactical battles we say "create an opening" . But when it comes to creating out of nothing , ONLY Allah can do this . That's why in our world we have the law of "Energy doesn't perish or appear out of nothing" . Translated from the Arabic law so it might differ .

Yes, thanks for pointing that out. But the thing you must agree with Allah creates and created Mankind (this includes Adam) in stages to continue to the scientific support of evolution.

Remember my core argument: "The Quran supports a gradual creation of all of mankind" And not: "The Quran supports and instant creation of all of mankind".

Once we have that settled, we have the Quran telling us that creation is made in stages, now what are those stages? That is where we turn to science and knowledge. Have we reached that stage yet?

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Before that , I'll give you a note . When you talk about the best of mankind , prophet Muhammad peace upon him , it's vulgar to call him "Muhammad" as if talking about your little brother . The same goes to the rest of prophets peace upon them all including father Adam .

Allah knows best .

Yes, let that not give anyone a hint that I do not respect the prophet (pbuh) by calling him "Muhammad", it was just fast typing.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 01:07:09 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2013, 07:10:51 PM »
After reading through most of your posts i favor brother Black Muslim. Brother Mclinkin94 you almost got me into thinking that Quran supported evolution. Brother Black Muslim your latest reply was perfect. Keep up the good work. But you guys should seriously consider keeping replies a bit short. It though for most of your readers to read Encyclopedias just to keep up with whats going on. Other than that you guys rock. All of you! Thank you.

You can choose which ever side you pick. I'm not forcing anyone to believe in evolution. But in order to keep your title as Muslim, you must say that Mankind (including Adam) was created in stages or through a process, not an instant creation.

All it really takes is one verse. As you know "Thumma" in Arabic means "then".

Quran 7:11 And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], THEN given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.

We were created in one form, THEN, Allah gave us human form. Don't forget this Applies to Adam. If the Quran wanted to say that Adam was created isntantly, as BlackMuslim pushes for, why would it say we and Adam were created then proportioned into shape? Further, if the Quran supports instant creation why would it say this twice:

Quran 40:64 Formed you then made your forms good/better.
Quran 64:3 Formed you then made your forms good/better.

Also:
Allah many times in the Quran has told us many types of creation and how everything was made through a process (Quran 32:7-9 is one example we used) on how the creation of the universe took 6 periods involving stages on how Allah spread out the creation of the universe and how Allah spread out the Earth and how Allah has given us stages in our embryological development. Why would Allah all of suddenly stop forming things by stages and decide to make humans instantly and without stages? Everything that was created was by stages, except humans? What exactly is your answer to that?

Even Jesus's creation--A miraculous birth similar to Adam (Quran 3:59)--involved stages.

How about the fact that the Quran has made it plainly clear that humans were created in stages:  (Quran 71:14)  God created you in stages and how the Quran highlights those stages as being embryology and evolutionary  (Quran 32:7-9, 35:11 etc.)

All of this this further proves the Quran when it says:
(Quran 71:14)  God created you in diverse stages

Indeed Allah is never short of words. When Allah says he created us in stages, we were created in stages..simple as that.

-----

The worst part is, Islam supports evolution and mainstream Muslims don't. You have clear Quranic support of evolution and you have immense scientific evidence and support for evolution, yet mainstream Muslims deny...

This is an embarrassment to Islam, this is an embarrassment to the world. This is JUST as bad as 6 literal day creationists and the flat earth believers! And the worst part is, the Quran supports creation in many different stages involving improvement of species onto higher level organisms like humans!

Imagine all to potential faith seekers who were investigating Islam and then they are told  the lie that Islam does not support evolution and they stay away from religion. You divert them from the truth, from the true religion by making excuses to remove the Quranic support for evolution.

How can we look at the Quranic verses that say that we were formed and then our form was made good/better, , or that humanity succeeded others in the Earth or that humans grew from the earth progressively or how Allah has said that he began the creation of humans from the earth and highlighted the stages of human development or that the creation of humans involved different stages and then say that the Quran is against evolution....

You deny evolution with Quranic support and the immense scientific evidence pointing to it. This is nothing short of an embarrassment.

You divert others from the path of Islam by making this lie. If it weren't for those fradulent hadiths, we wouldn't have this problem. The Quran even addresses this nonsense mainstream Islam is adhering to:

[Quran 31:6] Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless HADITH, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.

Muslims are diverting others from Islam (the path of God) without knowledge and uphold baseless hadith which has been thoroughly refuted by science and maintain no scientific support.

Shame on us....

Many people seek Islam, many people see the path of God..then when one fundamental scientific fact is denied by Muslims..they leave the path of God.

Shame on us...

May Allah forgive us all.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 06:24:44 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2013, 09:24:02 AM »
I already told you linckin , I did what I have to do . Your last post only repeats the last points . And none is better than Quran in saying this :
((And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."))