Author Topic: An advice to mclinkin94  (Read 51170 times)

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Offline IA

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An advice to mclinkin94
« on: October 22, 2013, 03:37:08 pm »
Brother mclinkin94, as I have seen from your posts, you accept evolution and reject hadiths. My intention is not to look like a smart person, but I have a sincere advice for you.
As for the evolution, I won't bring evidence against it or argue whether it's true or wrong. I want to show you a norm according to which you should judge if something is true or false. Just think for a moment: wouldn't it be more logical to believe that what the majority of muslims believe is true (I'm talkig about important beliefs, not small practical issues)? Wouldn't it be more logical to believe that the most of muslims are in the right path (again, I'm talking about important issues, because I agree that the most of ummah today are not like they should be)? If we read, we will see that the majority of muslims are sunnis (75-90%). If we believe that the most of the ummah are true believers, wouldn't it be more logical to reject evolution? Imagine the muslims from the time of Prophet, peace be upon him, until today being wrong about such an important belief, such as the way of creation. You may say that the early muslims didn't knew science. Yes, it's true. There were muslims, even islamic scholars who believed that Earth was flat etc, but those beliefs are unimportant that even the Quran doesn't talk directly about them. But, the issue of creation is different. You may say that the Quran supports evolution. I won't refute your claims, but do you know that using the Quran as the only source of argumentation can lead to disagreements on the most basic beliefs? Do you know that there are people who say alcohol is allowable in Islam? They also have proofs from the Quran, the difference is they interpret it another way (I have the link, but I don't want to share it). So, what we should do on such important issues is to see what Prophet Muhammad and his companions believed, then what scholars, sunni scholars say. This leads to the second belief, belief in hadiths.
The most illogical belief a muslim can have is to reject the hadiths. Brother, I don't want to insult you, but Islam is unimaginable without the Sunnah. Use the same standard here: wouldn't it be more logical to believe that hadiths were preserved, if muslim scholars for 1400 years believed they were? If we assume that evolution is true and reject hadiths, how can Allah let muslims in such errors for 1400 years?
Please brother, repent to Allah, I'm glad you are a convert, repent to Allah because if you believe in evolution and reject hadiths, according to all of the scholars of Islam, you are not a muslim. Does not Allah command us in the Quran to refer to scholars? If by their agreement, a person who rejects hadiths and believes in evolution is not a muslim, wouldn't it be more logical to stop believing on them? Please brother, this is something serious.

Offline The Canadian Atheist

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2013, 04:56:47 pm »
I want to show you a norm according to which you should judge if something is true or false. Just think for a moment: wouldn't it be more logical to believe that what the majority of muslims believe is true (I'm talkig about important beliefs, not small practical issues)? Wouldn't it be more logical to believe that the most of muslims are in the right path (again, I'm talking about important issues, because I agree that the most of ummah today are not like they should be)? If we read, we will see that the majority of muslims are sunnis (75-90%). If we believe that the most of the ummah are true believers, wouldn't it be more logical to reject evolution?

Argumentum ad populum. Majority of people are Christians too, doesn't make it true.

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There were muslims, even islamic scholars who believed that Earth was flat etc, but those beliefs are unimportant that even the Quran doesn't talk directly about them.

Incorrect, the flat Earth myth was dispelled in 2000 B.C.

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if you believe in evolution and reject hadiths, according to all of the scholars of Islam, you are not a muslim.

No true Scotsman fallacy. He's a Muslim if he calls himself a Muslim. Who are you to decide? "according to all the scholars" Argument from authority. There is literally NOT one authority that possesses universal expertise in one field. Humans make mistakes.


You should just let him believe what he wishes. You got beliefs that require faith, he believes in logic (evolution).

Offline IA

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2013, 05:53:05 pm »
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Argumentum ad populum. Majority of people are Christians too, doesn't make it true.
I'm talking on level of Muslims. As for the entire humanity, yes, most of them are in loss, as Allah says in the Quran: By time, Indeed, mankind is in loss, Except for those who have believed and done righteous deeds and advised each other to truth and advised each other to patience. (103:1-3)
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Incorrect, the flat Earth myth was dispelled in 2000 B.C.
Read about Flat Earth in Wikipedia.
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No true Scotsman fallacy. He's a Muslim if he calls himself a Muslim. Who are you to decide?
I don't want to offend you, but you don't have an idea about the islamic law. You can't be a Muslim just by calling yourself a Muslim. In fact, who are you to determine that someone can be a Muslim just by calling himself a Muslim? There are rules.
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"according to all the scholars" Argument from authority. There is literally NOT one authority that possesses universal expertise in one field. Humans make mistakes.
Allah says in the Quran: O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. (4:59)
If Allah commands us to refer to scholars, then even if they are wrong we won't be judged or punished because we acted upon the law, so the scholars consensus "possesses universal expertise" acording to the Quran, even if they might be wrong.

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2013, 10:19:26 pm »
Hello this is going to be a comprehensive post. So please take your time in reading.

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Brother mclinkin94, as I have seen from your posts, you accept evolution and reject hadiths. My intention is not to look like a smart person, but I have a sincere advice for you.

For the record, Yes: I accept evolution due to a strong Quranic basis and the immense scientific evidence. After debate with the hadiths with other Muslims (yes, they won that debate with hadiths :) ), I have to admit that it would be dishonest to reject all hadiths. Therefore I support some of them, but I do not base my trust on them due to being intellectually honest. I say that some of them possibly have some truth to them--like the Bible. To my knowledge, this is the most reasonable opinion and I would say that many honest Muslims would have to agree.


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As for the evolution, I won't bring evidence against it or argue whether it's true or wrong. I want to show you a norm according to which you should judge if something is true or false. Just think for a moment: wouldn't it be more logical to believe that what the majority of muslims believe is true (I'm talkig about important beliefs, not small practical issues)? Wouldn't it be more logical to believe that the most of muslims are in the right path (again, I'm talking about important issues, because I agree that the most of ummah today are not like they should be)? If we read, we will see that the majority of muslims are sunnis (75-90%). If we believe that the most of the ummah are true believers, wouldn't it be more logical to reject evolution?

The majority or minority of a belief does not interest me. The majority belief is Christianity, does that mean it is right? The majority belief back then was that the Earth is flat, does that mean that it is right? I support beliefs in which I think are rational and in which I can support through being intellectually honest. In which case I believe in Islam and I support evolution. It would be intellectual dishonesty to deny the Quranic support of the progressive creation of mankind.

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Imagine the muslims from the time of Prophet, peace be upon him, until today being wrong about such an important belief, such as the way of creation. You may say that the early muslims didn't knew science. Yes, it's true. There were muslims, even islamic scholars who believed that Earth was flat etc, but those beliefs are unimportant that even the Quran doesn't talk directly about them. But, the issue of creation is different.

I think you just proved me right by saying that Early muslims believed the Earth was flat and that the sun moved around the Earth :) The Quran is meant to support 7th century belief and modern belief without contradicting either belief in which case it is a requirement for it to support beliefs like the Earth being flat and round. the sun moving around the Earth, the earth moving around the sun simultaneously. The same can be said about evolution.

Point 1: If God were to give a revelation to 7th century nomads it has to compel them and has to give them things to reflect upon so they believe in the scripture
Point 2: If that revelation is the final revelation and is supposed to compel people of the future, then that revelation cannot contradict reality that future humans will discover
Point 3: Therefore, the Quran MUST affirm 7th century belief without contradicting science.

And it must be sufficiently vague so that it doesn't compel those whose hearts are closed. (watch this video on this topic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj4DS_QQYfo )

So yes, you find that in the Quran many words are purposely avoided or the Quran used alternate words so it could affirm 7th century beleif without contradicting (but supporting) science. So the Quranic scientific miracles have to be vague enough so they don't compel those whose hearts are closed and has to (at the same time) NOT contradict 7th century belief.

Here is one example:

(And he is the one who created the night, daylight, sun and the moon, all swimming in an orbit). (Quran, The Prophets: 33).

Notice how precise this verse was in its language at supporting 7th century belief (that the sun/moon move around the Earth) and modern belief (that the sun and the moon are both swimming in an orbit). You can see this throughout the Quran.

So in conclusion, the Quran is meant to support both beliefs. We are not to hold just 7th century belief like the creationist account especially if the Quran supports the evolutionary belief as well :)

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You may say that the Quran supports evolution. I won't refute your claims, but do you know that using the Quran as the only source of argumentation can lead to disagreements on the most basic beliefs?

I will summarize my examples: (these are only brief and superficial summaries, my study on this topic has been very extensive)

(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.
(Quran 71:14) God created you in diverse stages


Did the Quran mention the stages? Of course it did, It mentioned the Embryological stages (that I am sure you know about) and the Evolutionary stages.

(Quran 32:7) Allah is He who has made everything He created BETTER, and He began the creation of the human (being) out of clay--> He made everything he created better. Evolution seems to explain the mechanism of perfecting God's creation. (Clay is a product of wet earth-Exactly what you are made of: Water and Earth.

What's even more fascinating about this verses is that Allah say he made all of his creation better from the original and he began the creation of a human. This verse is hinting at a connection. A connection that human beings were made through a process of evolving better than the original creation.

(Quran 32:--8) Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

^This verse comes right after the previous one. So AFTER human beings BEGAN forming,, our posterity comes from an extract of semen. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.

(Quran 32:9) Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

^AFTER Allah made sexual reproduction, he proportioned us and given us vision/hearing/consciousness.

Allah BEGINS the process of creation, lets sexual reproduction happen, and then we get proportioned and achieve higher consciousness. Aren't these verses clear in their support of gradual creation of humans? These are the stages that Quran mentions in 71:14 (as well as the embryological stages).

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(Quran 35:11) And Allah did create you from dust; then from a reproductive fluid; then He made you in pairs

^Here the Quran makes a very important point. This verse is stating the process of creation. We were first created from dust (a basic compound) then we were created from a reproductive fluid (This is signifying the creation of sexual reproduction), after sexual reproduction: we were created in pairs-male and female. This shows that Adam and Eve (the first humans of our kind that were sexually isolated from the other humans which we were descended), were created after the reproductive fluid. This also shows that the first humans that were like us were created from a reproductive fluid and not instantly as creationists believe. The process of formation involved simple compounds, then sexual reproduction was formed to allow us to form.

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(Quran 64:3) He designed you and perfected your design

^Human form went through a process of betterment or perfection. If this verse wanted to say that humans have a perfect design, it would have not been worded this way, thus, this verse is showing that humans were designed as something and our design (or form) was perfected.

(Quran 76:28) We created them and strengthened their forms. And when we please. We will substitute the likes of them by a change.

^Here, Allah has given us stronger forms. He created us and made us better. And when he pleases, he will substitute us by a creation with a change! How did God strengthen human's make? Could it be through evolution? If this verse should be interpreted otherwise, then why does it not simply state, 'It is We who have created them in a strong make,' instead of implying two separate steps and a time lapse? The same argument pertains to one translation of the following verse: 'He...designed you and (time lapse) perfected your design...' (64:3)
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This is compelling evidence. If you chose to make excuses to these verses alone (there are many other examples), then you are intellectually dishonest.

The Quran is clear that ALL humans are made from Nutfah, that includes Adam:

(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance (Alaq or embryo).

(Quran 16:4) He created man from a sperm-drop;


^Unfortunately, to say that Adam is the exception would be making an excuse that manipulates the clear Quran. You must agree that Adam was created from a nutfah (reproductive fluid). 

(Quran 6.133) If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to WHATEVER He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people.


Allah can get rid of Us and make another creature succeed just as he produced US from another people!

Note: The Quran specifically uses the word "Whatever" or "What" ("ma" in Arabic ما). This Arabic word "ma" cannot refer to humans; this word is strictly reserved for non-humans (the Arabic word that does refer to humans is "men من", meaning "who" or "whoever" but it was not used here). This verse says that if God wishes He can make our descendants nonhuman just like our ancestors. Further this verse is referring to ALL of mankind (as Quran 6:130 shows in context). So all of mankind was produced from descendants of another people (hominids).

To further Clarify this point:

(Quran 43:60) And if we will, We could make angels from amongst you (minkum), succeeding each other on the earth.

^Again, a reference to Allah destroying Mankind through letting something else (angels) come amongst us and succeed each other on the Earth just as we (humans) came from another creature and succeeded after them (6:133).


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Do you know that there are people who say alcohol is allowable in Islam? They also have proofs from the Quran, the difference is they interpret it another way (I have the link, but I don't want to share it). So, what we should do on such important issues is to see what Prophet Muhammad and his companions believed, then what scholars, sunni scholars say. This leads to the second belief, belief in hadiths.

Unfortunately, there are some people who say alcohol is allowable in Islam. that is because of excuse making and manipulation of the verse that clearly says NO intoxicants. I would say that it would be manipulation of the Quran to say that Adam was not created through a process or his creation didn't involve a reproductive fluid.


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The most illogical belief a muslim can have is to reject the hadiths.

I think, considering how many of them contradict each other including the Quran, that it would be illogical to unconditionally accept hadith. Rather, you have to do a systematic study on them. Like we said before, the Quran has multi-layered meanings, some for the people who gain knowledge in the future as the Quran states in 3:7.

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Brother, I don't want to insult you, but Islam is unimaginable without the Sunnah. Use the same standard here: wouldn't it be more logical to believe that hadiths were preserved, if muslim scholars for 1400 years believed they were? If we assume that evolution is true and reject hadiths, how can Allah let muslims in such errors for 1400 years?

Yes brother, at one point I declined all hadiths, but now I do not  decline all of them. it wouldn't be logical to believe that hadiths were preserved, because they are not and contain contradictions. http://asimiqbal2nd.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/contradictions.pdf


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Please brother, repent to Allah, I'm glad you are a convert, repent to Allah because if you believe in evolution and reject hadiths, according to all of the scholars of Islam, you are not a muslim. Does not Allah command us in the Quran to refer to scholars? If by their agreement, a person who rejects hadiths and believes in evolution is not a muslim, wouldn't it be more logical to stop believing on them? Please brother, this is something serious.

I do repent to Allah and pray for guidance. There isn't a bone in my body that rejects the Quranic support for evolution. I have studied it and I came at it.

I came to Islam the same way, through reasonable rational intellectual honest understanding. I cannot manipulate the Quran to support instant creationism and expect to remain intellectually honest.

As you have seen before, I have debated on the topic of Hadiths. I have found my error and I have corrected it. that is because the most important quality of any belief is intellectual honesty. I am willing to change my beliefs because I remain honest with my beliefs. Islam is an extremely powerful religion and it is absolutely beautiful. I would hate to see it manipulated just because of some unwilling scholars or Muslims.

This is something serious, my beliefs hold. The Quranic account for creation with a process is explicit, the only way to deny it is through direct manipulation, adhering to faulty hadiths, excuse making or intellectual dishonesty.

I want to make it clear that irrespective of my support for hadith or not. There is uncertainty as Allah did not promise to protect non-quranic hadiths, instead he asks us to produce our proofs first. But regardless, I still follow the Sunnah to the best of my ability because there is still uncertainty as to whether the prophet said it or not. I want to make it clear though that I follow the Sunnah that don't contradict the Quran. The current method of prayer is fine. The Quran mentioned prayer 3 times a day, but it doesn't hurt me to pray 5 times. etc.

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Allah says in the Quran: O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. (4:59)
If Allah commands us to refer to scholars, then even if they are wrong we won't be judged or punished because we acted upon the law, so the scholars consensus "possesses universal expertise" acording to the Quran, even if they might be wrong

I wanted to add something to your understanding of that verse. Allah commands us to refer to those in authority over us. and if we disagree over anything we refer it to Allah and to the Messenger. Currently, the messenger is not with us--so the part of the verse dealing with the messenger is not applicable to us--this was applicable to those who lived at the time of the prophet--(The Quran was designed for all times and places so it has verses applicable to us and verses not applicable to us--like the war verses about the meccans).

Notice that the Quran does not prohibit disagreement with the authorities. If we disagree with the authorities (whether they are military authorities or scholars), we must refer to Allah, through what?

-Through prayer
-Through his revelation (the Quran)

So if scholars and I disagree, we refer our understanding with the Quran, and that is exactly what I am doing now.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 10:34:50 pm by mclinkin94 »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2013, 07:25:57 am »
I'll say it flat out , Atheist . This is none of your bloody damn business . Who asked you ? Who mentioned your name ? Do all Atheists love to stick their noses in whatever doesn't address them ?!

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Argumentum ad populum. Majority of people are Christians too, doesn't make it true.
Ad populum or whatever , talk with evidence or don't . And he clearly didn't use it as the only argument but what to do , your eyes seem have something wrong with them .

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Incorrect, the flat Earth myth was dispelled in 2000 B.C.
Say what ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

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No true Scotsman fallacy. He's a Muslim if he calls himself a Muslim. Who are you to decide? "according to all the scholars" Argument from authority. There is literally NOT one authority that possesses universal expertise in one field. Humans make mistakes.
Indeed , similar birds are attracted to each other . And the followers of false ways agree with each other . Yes , we CAN say if someone is Muslim or not . Who on Earth are YOU to say we can't ? Who are you to talk about our religion like you know it ? If someone says that there is no proof of Allah then we don't need your permission to say he's completely going against Islam . When someone says that we're cousins of apes then we don't need your permission to say he's defying Islam . And we clearly don't need your permission to say that whoever rejects Sunnah is defying Islam .
So mind your bloody business . Go watch TV or surf the internet somewhere else . You believe you came to life for nothing and will die for nothing so act according to it and leave the believers be .

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You should just let him believe what he wishes. You got beliefs that require faith, he believes in logic (evolution).
Logic my foot . You're the last to talk about logic . Faith you say ? Do you even comprehend what faith is ? If you think that faith is belief with no evidence , then again , that's your bloody business . Our belief is based on logical evidence . So get out of your shell and stop letting others think for you the same way you accuse us of .

And , linckin , check your YouTube inbox .

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2013, 02:32:30 pm »
As'salamu Alaikum everyone,

On the topic of evolution, should we not qualify what type of evolution are we talking about?  There is usually a mix on what the word is meant to be by the person.  From my experience, there are two meanings that the word implies when used by people:

1-  Humans have changed throughout the ages.  They've always been humans in essence, but they've changed and transformed as time passed. 

2-  Humans originated from animals (fish, monkies, etc...).

For #1, Islam supports it 100%.  Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/adam_90_feet_tall.htm.

By the way, we are witnessing our bodies evolving in our age today.  The reason why you pluck out your wisdom teeth is because your jaw is no longer big enough to house all of your teeth.  We will eventually be naturally born without them.  This of course may/will take millions of years.

I hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline abdullah

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2013, 05:27:22 pm »

Offline IA

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2013, 06:23:00 pm »
Your method of using just your intellect to determine what is right and what is wrong, to interpret the Quran and to judge whether a hadith is true or not, is not islamic. To show you the weakness of our minds, just take the philosophers as an example. Didn't all of them use the intellect? Didn't all of their conclusions come after a long time thinking, using logic, etc? The answer is yes of course. But, were their conclusions the same? Absolutely not. Perhaps we have conclusions as much as philosophers. This is the result of using just your intellect and making it independent. You may say that "I make conclusion using the Quran". I said in my earlier post: by using the Quran as the only source, people will come to completely different conclusions. When I took the example of those people making alcohol permissible using arguments from the Quran, you said their arguments were weak, or they didn't have arguments at all. The same way, those verses that you regard as arguments of evolution being true, for me are not even arguments and using them to prove evolution is ridiculous. Do you know that there are people who say homosexuality is allowed in the Quran? In the same way, you may say their arguments are weak, but for them they are strong. So what you are doind by trying to interpret the Quran, is just following your desires. Do you know that the main reason why there are so many sects within Islam, is misinterpretation of the Quran, using "the desire-follower intellect". You said "We have to do a systematic study of hadiths"!? There are people who can't learn propely to pray, because of time, knowledge etc. If everyone would become a self-confessed scholar of Islam, there would be a chaos. Everone will follow what he thinks is true and people will fall in confusion. Whom to follow? I just can't believe our God, the only God, Allah, can let people in such a pain. That's why he said:

 O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. (4:59)

You said that the Prophet is not alive now, so the rule of refering to the Messenger is not applicable to us. You have to understand one thing: when the Quran talks about something, even if it is history, even if it is refering to Prophet Muhammad or his compaions, no matter what, it is refering to us too. The Quran is for all times. So in this case, by refering to the Messeger, it means refering to his Sunnah, to his hadiths. The disagreement which Quran talks about - is not any disagreement by every person who only wants to follow his desires. Example: in Islam, it is not allowed to shake the hand with a women that is permisible for you to marry. I can come out and say: "I disagree with the scholars. I don't accept the hadith that says this thing is a sin, because the Quran says we should be kind. So if someone wants to shake the had with me, I won't refuse." Is this an argument? Again, it might look weak to you, but for the one making it, it is extremely strong. So, can everyone disagree with scholars about whatever he wants? Of course not. What the verse is talking about, is when there is not a consensus about something between scholars, or between a large group of people, or between two schools of thought etc. So our duty then is to refer to the Quran and the Sunnah, and to accept the consensus arrived by the scholars. If there is no consensus, to follow that which we think is more logical (here the logic comes in!). Here is what Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi says in his english tafsir, explaining this verse:

Hence, if a dispute arises about any matter between the Muslims or between the rulers and the ruled, they should turn to the Qur'an and the Sunnah for a decision and they should all submit to the decision. (http://www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/4/index.html#sdfootnote90sym)

Is there disagreement between scholars or people regarding evolution? No! So our duty is to obey those in authority among us.

You said Allah did not promise to protect unquranic hadiths. Again, wrong.

Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian. (15:9)

The word for Quran here is "Dhikra" which includes both the Quran and the insipration given to the Prophet. That's why some of the translators translated it as:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). Yusuf Ali

Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian. Shakir

Here is was Islamic-Awareness says about this:
The promise made by Allah(SWT) in Qur'an 15:9 is obviously fulfilled in the undisputed purity of the Qur'anic text throughout the fourteen centuries since its revelation. However, what is often forgotten by many Muslims is that the divine promise also includes, by necessity, the Sunnah of the Prophet(P), because the Sunnah is the practical example of the implementation of the Qur'anic guidance, the wisdom taught to the Prophet(P) along with the scripture, and neither the Qur'an nor the Sunnah can be understood correctly without the other. (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/hadsciences.html)

You said the Quran tries to support every belief. The Quran speaks the truth, despite it being wrong for someone or true for someone else. To prove this, I will use your example.

(And he is the one who created the night, daylight, sun and the moon, all swimming in an orbit). (Quran, The Prophets: 33).

Some decades before, the Sun moving was considered a scientific error. Now we know that it also moves (I think around itself, I'm not sure but I have read it somewhere and also Dr. Zakir Naik talks about it). So the Quran is the truth, even if it may not seem to someone. It doesn't neccesarily need to support every belief.

Allah says several times in the Quran tha the majority of people are wrong. But this does not apply when it comes to something that is consensus between muslims.

Who can believe in something so controversial such as evolution, and even reject hadiths, when for 1400 years there were great scholars who didn't sleep at night just studying the religion of Allah who didn't do that. It is interensting how no one of them came to the conclusion that the hadiths should be rejected or that evolution is the way Allah created us. Now, some muslims, using their "intellect" want to prove those great scholars wrong (may Allah have mercy on them and reward them for their great work).

Using your intellect to understand the Quran is wrong, and as I said, it was the main cause for so many sects to be formed. The solution is clear: humbling yourself, obeying the scholars, accepting the hadiths. This is the true Islam, which creates no confusion among people. I would never believe that Allah will leave such important thing unclear to us. I will respond to your arguments for evolution in the next post insha'Allah.

Offline abdullah

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2013, 12:06:24 am »
Assalamualykum brother
Where are you getting this idea from that we are not supposed to use our intellect when looking at the Qur'an.The Quran tells us over 70 times to use our reason and intellect.
It also tells to ponder over its verses. Not only that but it also challenges us to find an error in it. So your statement is obviously false. It is this view of Islam that got muslims where they are today. If I were to switch the word "Qur'an" with "Bible" in your post I honestly wouldnt be able to tell the difference between you and a fundamentalist christian preacher. Why would I follow anybody blindly, when the Qur'an condemns people for doing the same thing. The Qur'an condemns anybody for being a blind sheep. Your sects argument is fallacious, because you don't realize that the best way to destroy these sects is with intellectual arguments, not by telling people to follow scholars blindly. I agree with you in that reading your positions in to the Quran is wrong. I dont understand what your problem is with rejecting ahadith that contradict with science, even Imam al Ghazali said that any hadith that contradicts with science must be discarded.
I don't even believe in evolution but i'm still going to refute your argument against it. You say that just because the scholars don't believe in evolution It must not be true. this is fallacious reasoning because the majority of the scholars aren't even familiar with the evidence for and against evolution. Anyways most scholars have authority over fiqh, fatawaa, etc... but they do not have valid authority over science because they dont even study it.

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2013, 06:19:13 am »
I'm really worried about Muslims in America and Europe . Let's make some things clear , I believe what Ahmeti meant is to not get arrogant and think you can judge Quran based on your own intellect . If Quran says something clearly like that Jews and Christians and anyone not Muslim would go to hell , then we surely can't agree with someone who says that they go to paradise depending on the argument that Islam is merciful ! There are things which can never be interrupted differently . And using twisted acrobatic explanations on them doesn't change that fact . Quran and Sunnah don't leave any kind of room for doubting the fact that Allah created Adam peace upon him by gathering different kinds of sand from Earth and then formed him into the shape of a human and he was left for a while and then a soul was blown into him . Case closed . That is why we never accept evolution . As for its so called evidences , after reading a load of articles about faking evidence and using anything unrelated for the sake of it , I just realized that it's an ideology more than science . And why would I believe what they say just like that ? Is it because they are "scientists" and I should just follow what they say and never question it ? What's the difference between that and following scholars blindly ? The point is that there are things basic which no one can deny wither a scholar or not .

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2013, 08:51:04 am »
Assalamualaykum
I think y'all are confusing using your intellect with following your desires. These people that come up with these nonsense arguments are not using their intellect they are following their desires. It is not right to just say follow the scholars and don't use your intellect. That is a cop-out, this type of thinking comes from cowards who are too scared too use their minds. You have to destroy those absurd interpretations by using intellect. On the topic of evolution, why try to make Islam incompatible with it, this drives people away from Islam. This causes them to think that Islam is just another christianity with their crazy creationists. We should always try our best to reconcile science with the Qur'an. We shouldn't say that the Qur'an supports a theory, but we should that it is not contradictory to it.

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2013, 09:18:35 am »
Brother mclinkin the quran doesnt sap pray 3 times a a day it just mentions the names of  3 salaat. On another note, the ayah that says "we left nothing out of the book" is not referring to the Qur'an but to the book where Allah wrote down everything that would happen.

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2013, 09:54:44 am »
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Assalamualykum brother
Where are you getting this idea from that we are not supposed to use our intellect when looking at the Qur'an.The Quran tells us over 70 times to use our reason and intellect.
It also tells to ponder over its verses.

Wa alaykum salaam brother,
Yes, you are right. The Quran tells us to use our reason and intellect, in order to come to the conclusion that God exists (by pondering over his creation etc), that the Quran is a book revealed by him (due to its uniqueness, scientific and linguistic miracles etc) and that Muhammad was his messenger, not to give fatwas.
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Not only that but it also challenges us to find an error in it. So your statement is obviously false.

This is directed specifically to the non-believers. By not being able to find any error on it, it will become clear to them that this books is indeed from God. And again, challenging us to find errors does not mean it allows us to give fatwas.
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It is this view of Islam that got muslims where they are today.
The only reason why Muslims are where they are, is because they are not following their religion.
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If I were to switch the word "Qur'an" with "Bible" in your post I honestly wouldnt be able to tell the difference between you and a fundamentalist christian preacher. Why would I follow anybody blindly, when the Qur'an condemns people for doing the same thing. The Qur'an condemns anybody for being a blind sheep. Your sects argument is fallacious, because you don't realize that the best way to destroy these sects is with intellectual arguments, not by telling people to follow scholars blindly.
The concept of blind following is not that simple. I have watched a lof of lectures on this topic. There are rules. Remeber, the majority of the ummah is not able to study their religion, so the scholars of Ahlus-Sunah allowed blind following. As for the muslims who can study, they should know the argument. So, we should ask for an argument when a scholar gives a fatwa. After that, even if it may not seem to us like a strong argument (which generally happens due to our own desires) we are required to follow it. Don't you follow a math formula blindly, even if you don't have a verification of it? Yes, because you know mathematicians studied it for centuries. If a scholar is wrong, we won't be punished about that because we acted according to the Quran (4:59). If there is more than one opinion (I'm talking about opinion given by schools of thought, scholars and not any opinion of any person) we should use our logic and follow that which we think is right. The first source for giving fatwas is the Quran. However, the Quran may be misinterpreted, so we should see what Prophet Muhammad and his companions thought of a verse. Example: the Quran (32:4) says that Allah is above the throne. Different sects tried to interpret this on different ways. So what the scholars did, was taking the opinion of Prophet Muhammad and the companions regarding this verse, and this means that the second source is authentic Sunnah or hadiths. The third is the consensus of scholars. If there is no consensus among some scholars about an issue, they should go back and see whether there was consensus among the sahabas, tabiins and tabi-tabiins (the first three generations of muslims) about the same issue. If there is, they should follow it; if there is not, now the intellect comes in. You can never destroy sects with intellectual arguments, because their arguments are also a product of their intellect, so there will be an endless debate. What they should do is return back to the Quran, the Sunnah and the beliefs of the majority of Muslims.
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I agree with you in that reading your positions in to the Quran is wrong. I dont understand what your problem is with rejecting ahadith that contradict with science, even Imam al Ghazali said that any hadith that contradicts with science must be discarded.
A hadith which contradicts the Quran or established scientific facts, of course is not true, and that's why we have scholars who clasify them as correct, weak hadiths etc. Don't forget that something may seem as a scientific error, but it is not. I took the example of Sun rotating. It seemed as an error some decades ago, but today is a fact. The same way, a hadith may look like it contradicts with science, but we should not be fast on judging. So we Muslims who are not scholars should be silent about those hadiths and let the scholars do their work on classifying them.
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I don't even believe in evolution but i'm still going to refute your argument against it. You say that just because the scholars don't believe in evolution It must not be true. this is fallacious reasoning because the majority of the scholars aren't even familiar with the evidence for and against evolution.
I just can't believe an important belief such as the creation of men will be left unclear by Allah. The reason why I think we should follow scholars in something which is consensus is because they studied Islam their entire life, and it is irrational to believe that for 1400 years Allah let them believe something that is wrong. Yes, for other things, especially with those that have to do with science and which are not so important for a muslim to believe on them or not, it is not necessary to follow a scholar. I took the example of the Flath Earth earlier.
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Anyways most scholars have authority over fiqh, fatawaa, etc... but they do not have valid authority over science because they dont even study it.
You misunderstood me. I didn't say that the scholars studied the theory of Darwin and they found proofs against it. What I said was that they were not able to find any connection between this theory and the Quranic verses. They studied the Quran and all of them, for 1400 years believed in intelligent design.

Offline IA

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2013, 10:06:06 am »
Assalamualaykum
On the topic of evolution, why try to make Islam incompatible with it, this drives people away from Islam. This causes them to think that Islam is just another christianity with their crazy creationists. We should always try our best to reconcile science with the Qur'an. We shouldn't say that the Qur'an supports a theory, but we should that it is not contradictory to it.
I just can't understand you. If the Quran is incompatible with something, that's all, we should not be ashamed. In fact, Islam is incompatible with a lot of things today in West. In Islam, it is reqired for women to cover their hair. Just because the majority of women today don't cover their hair, does that mean we should try to reinterpret the islamic law and make this thing permissible? Also, the Quran mentions jinns, angels etc and a lot of atheists see those things as stupid. Does that mean we should reject them? Sorry brother, but you are totally wrong here. If the Quran supports a theory, we should say it with pride and defend that theory. If the Quran contradicts a theory, even if it is acceptable by science at the moment, we should reject it and that's all. There are a lot of things unknown to science (Paradise, Hell etc).

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Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2013, 10:23:25 am »
mclinkin94, I don't have time at the moment to respond to your article about evolution being supported by the Quran. But, in short words: the Quran in some places tells us that the man was created from dust and in some others from a liquid. To make it clear, the Quran says that it was Adam who was created from dust, which means that whenever the Quran talks about people being created from a liquid etc is talking about other people: “And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: ‘I am going to create a human (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud.  So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.” (Quran 38:71-72).
When the Quran talks about stages, it talk about the stages of forming the dust or stages of embryo. This article refutes everything that has to do with evolution in the Quran: http://www.qurandeniesdarwinism.com/4.html
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 11:29:00 am by Ilir Ahmeti »