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Offline Daughter of Islam

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Jeremias 20:15
« on: September 05, 2012, 01:18:25 PM »

Peace be upon you,

This is my first post. Thank you for allowing me to be a member.

Could any one share with me his thoughts about the verse Jeremias 20:15

" Cursed be the man that brought the tidings to my father, saying : A man child is born to thee: and made him greatly rejoice."

Kindest regards,

:)

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2012, 03:04:15 PM »
Quote
Peace be upon you,

This is my first post. Thank you for allowing me to be a member.

Could any one share with me his thoughts about the verse Jeremias 20:15

" Cursed be the man that brought the tidings to my father, saying : A man child is born to thee: and made him greatly rejoice."

Kindest regards,

 :)

Peace be upon you sister "Daughter of Islam",

Welcome to the blog!  Insha'Allah, you will find your answers here.

The quote that you gave is actually a complaint from Jeremiah to GOD Almighty about GOD Almighty that is even filled with blasphemies.  You can read from Jeremiah 20:7 and down.  Here is the link: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremias%2020&version=NIV.

In Jeremiah 20:7, Jeremiah says the following:

You deceived me, Lord, and I was deceived;
    you overpowered me and prevailed.
I am ridiculed all day long;


So here Prophet Jeremiah calls GOD Almighty a liar.

In Jeremiah 20:14-16, we read:

14 Cursed be the day I was born!
    May the day my mother bore me not be blessed!
15 Cursed be the man who brought my father the news,
    who made him very glad, saying,
    “A child is born to you—a son!”
16 May that man be like the towns
    the Lord overthrew without pity.
May he hear wailing in the morning,
    a battle cry at noon.


So here Jeremiah is basically speaking nonsense about himself and about every male born child.

Hope this answers your question.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah


Offline Egyptian

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2012, 03:30:40 PM »
Assalamualiaikom



I agree with Bro Osama Abdallah ,that there is some improper language by a(so called prophet) to the almighty ...


some commentaries on the verse in its context:



Quote from: The IVP Women's Bible Commentary ,Catherine Clark Kroeger

When judgment falls on Judah and Jerusalem those prayers(of Jeremiah) will be fulfilled. Jeremiah's survival depends solely on God. who had promised to be with him and defend him. Jeremiah's social isolation was part of Ill ministry in another way. The Lord commanded him to remain unmarried, childless and uninvolved in community rituals surrounding marriage and death. This unique way of life would be a demonstration of the judgment to come. Jeremiah was deprived of children and therefore a future for his name, as the people will be. Jeremiah did not participate in mourning rites as a sign that no one will be left to bury the dead or comfort the bereaved. Jeremiah did not attend wedding feasts because God will banish the people from the land and leave no one to laugh or sing. Readers of these chapters are not left to despair, however. Jeremiah 16:10-15 summarizes God's plait for Israel.  restoration after exile. There will even be hope for nations who reject their false gods and know the Lord.

The Last Chance Refused (Jeremiah 18-20) :

The material assembled in these chapters shows how the people to whom Jeremiah ministered refused their last chance to repent and be spared. God planned good things for Israel. but they had disobeyed. Through Jeremiah  the Lord had declared the plan to break and destroy them. but they could still choose to turn from their wicked ways and let God shape their future for good. They refused God's offer, however, and chose to be shaped by wicked own plans. Their national life and institutions would maintain their way rather than the Lord's. The city and people shattered by divine judgment will he like a shattered pot that cannot be mended. After their decision there will be no turning back front disaster. Once again the central indictment of idolatry is presented as the reason for judgment. The city gate near the pottery shop led to the valley of the son of Hinnom. where people burned their children as offerings to Baal.  Jeremiah 19:4 labels this practice an order. A particularly horrible picture of judgment follows this indictment. Jerusalem will be besieged, and the starving people will resort to cannibalism (Jer 19:9; el Ezck 5:10). Thus one of the covenant curses will come into effect (see Lam 2:20; 4:10, which lament this horror during the conquest of the city). Second Kings 6:24.30 is the only narrative account in the Old Testament of this measure of desperation. Rejection of the divine word takes the form of persecuting the Lord's prophet. His enemies plotted against Jeremiah, beat him. put him in stocks and planned to kill him. Jeremiah's prayer for vindication coincides with God's announced judgment.
Jeremiah's prayer (der 20:7-13) follows one of the convictions of an Old Testament lament when Inc blames God directly for his suffering. In Jeremiah 20:7 he accuses God of enticing or deceiving him and prevailing over him, using the same verbs as his traitorous friends speak (,ler 20:10). God had succeeded at what they had only planned. Nevertheless, this prayer also includes a statement of confidence in God's help. Jeremiah believes the truth or the judgment oracles he has had to deliver. The sixth and final prayer for help is uniformly negative. This poem, does not say anything directly about the message Jeremiah has preached or the persecution he has suffered. although they are the reason for his misery. Instead Jeremiah curses the day he was born. The Lord had consecrated Jeremiah a prophet before birth, so he could have avoided the burden of God's call only by never being born.
His father had received with joy the announcement "A child is born to you. a son" (Jer 20:15).
Jeremiah curses this messenger just as he has been cursed for bringing unwelcome news. If he had died in the womb. he could have avoided the sorrow and shame that have filled his life. If the anonymous messenger is the subject, Jeremiah 20:17 is hyperbole. The only way a man could have killed him in the womb would have been to kill his mother before he was born. Jeremiah stops short of saying this, just as lie does not directly curse his mother. Alternatively, God may have been the one who could have killed him instead of consecrating him.
Jeremiah's question about the meaning of his life suggests a parallel question about the meaning or Israel's life. In these chapters the Israelites in Judah have turned down their final opportunity to repent. They have voluntarily forfeited their special role among the nations as the Lord's chosen people. What will prove to be the meaning of their national life if it ends like this? Jeremiah's survival provides a hint that there will lie a future for God's people too. Although Jeremiah 's hearers decided against God's word, they were not able to kill God's prophet
.


« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 07:33:31 PM by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2012, 03:56:41 PM »

Another commentary:



Quote from:  A Commentary on Jeremiah: Exile and Homecoming ,
Walter Bruggemann

The poetry moves abruptly from praise (v. 13) to the poison of assault upon everything that is near and dear. We are given no clue as to what might have evoked this poem of violent rejection and self-hatred. Perhaps this outpouring is triggered by the massive resistance Jeremiah encountered in his poetic vocation, or perhaps he is aware— in spite of the doxology — that God is not overly attentive. Or perhaps the poem is less focused and intentional than that. The curse speech may be an UN-differentiated act of both deep exhaustion and a sense of futility about his vocation.
In any case, the verses are a cry from the depth Cf. Ps. 130:1). It is a cry so personal in character and so urgent that it lacks the focus of address. It is a wish hardly formed, not yet ready to be cast as a prayer. it is a yearning for "non-being," and in that regard is closely paralleled to the longer poem of Job 3. The poet wishes the day of his birth had never happened (Jen 2014). He knows of course that times of birth are awesome, specific, and irreversible (cf. 8:7), but he dares to imagine that his birth was not necessary and need not have been. The main assault in 20:15-17 is against the bearer of the news of his birth. He imagines the day of his birth. His father waited while the midwives worked. Then the news. Then rejoicing. But the waiting, the news, the rejoicing are all rejected. If only the news had not been brought. Jeremiah has made entry into this community only when the news of A Hon Message to Stubborn Jerusalem his birth is announced by the messenger. If the news had not been announced, he might have been unnoticed, unvalued, unassaulted, uncalled. The bearer of the message is rejected by Jeremiah because he did not need to bring the news. He could instead have suppressed the news and killed the baby. Perhaps there is subtle irony. As Jeremiah himself is rejected as a messenger, so Jeremiah would reject the messenger who caused him to be present and known in the world. Jeremiah knows all about messengers being rejected, and he wishes his birth message had never been delivered. The poem ends with the great "why" question of human existence (y 18): but it is not a general existential probe. The question is quite concrete. His urgent inquiry is more than simply the "why" of human existence. It is the "why" of being given a burden of "plucking up and tearing down," a message completely (and predictably) resisted. The issue is not existence, bur vocation that shapes existence. Jeremiah  dread-filled question lingers unanswered, as we might expect. We do not know why, as Jeremiah does not know — because the ground and reason are hidden in the purposes of God.



Offline Egyptian

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2012, 04:04:56 PM »
A third commentary:



Quote from: The Book of Job: A Contest of Moral Imaginations
Carol A. Newsom

The problem of the lack of an addressable other is also signaled in the choice and modification of the genre Job uses when he does break his silence—the curse on the day of his birth. Here, too, one is hampered by the small number of extant examples, for only in Jeremiah 20:14-18 is there a comparable in-stance. These two, however, exhibit precise agreement in the parts of the genre, which are four: (1) the curse on the day (Jer 20:14//Job 3:3a, 4-5); (2) the curse on the messenger who brought news of the birth (Jer 20:15-16//Job 3:3b, 6- 9); (3) the reason for the curse (Jer 20:17//Job 3:10); and (4) the concluding lament (Jer 20:28//Job 3:11-23). Many have analyzed the form and debated its intent.7 Whether intended as a "real" curse or only a rhetorical one, the curse on the day of one's birth has the shape of performative speech. Thus, the words orient themselves ostensibly toward their object rather than toward a listener. Nevertheless, one may ask if, despite their overt form, they are not a form of covert address. Zuckerman insightfully describes Jeremiah's use of the curse as a prayer in extremis, a "lament of last resort," intended "to portray a sufferer's distress in the most nihilistic terms possible for the purpose of attracting God's attention and thus leading to the rescue of the sufferer from affliction."s The curse on the day of one's birth serves to signify a distress so pervasive and so deep that it makes direct address in a prayer of supplication impossible. Such an analysis may adequately describe the pragmatic intent of Jeremiah's curse, but it is less clear that it is apt for Job's words.


« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 07:28:33 PM by Egyptian »

Offline Daughter of Islam

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2012, 10:25:24 PM »

Thank you brothers for all the comments. If you please bear with me the following crazy thought I have:

In Jeremias 20: 13 the verse says:

"Sing ye to the Lord, praise the Lord: because he hath delivered the soul of the poor out of the hand of the wicked."

after this verse even christians in their commentaries they couldn't understand why suddenly Jeremia started to curse him self.

qoute:The poetry moves abruptly from praise (v. 13) to the poison of assault upon everything that is near and dear. We are given no clue as to what might have evoked this poem of violent rejection and self-hatred

My crazy analysis goes like this:

If he is really a prophet, prophets would never curse them selves.

In the Holy Quran In Surat Maryam, prophet Jesus said;
"And peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! (33) That is Jesus, the son of Mary, the word of truth about which they are in dispute (34) It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is (35) And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path (36)”

So, according to this,  Jeremias 20: 14, 16,17 & 18 don't make any sense at all and I believe they were added by those who buy with God's words few money.

please stay with me for a while longer.

that leaves us with Jeremias 20:15 .  looking back at eastern cultures it was the duty of women to give the goodnews of delivering a baby , men had nothing to do with it, not even close relative men. so Jeremia should have cursed the woman who had given the news not the man.

there fore Jeremias was not refering to his own birth, he was actually cursing any human being who would bring the tiding to God of having a man child that he rejoices with.

and thus every thing fits into place of having Jeremia starting with 20:13 singing to the Lord then cursing any man who would say he had a son and that is a praise.

Jeremias 20:15
"Cursed be the man that brought the tidings to my father, saying a man child is born to thee and made him greatly rejoice."

Thank you for reading my crazy post and awaiting your comments.

Offline Final Overture

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2012, 07:50:23 AM »
You need explanation?
Jeremiah 20:11-13 Jeremiah believes that God is on his side and won't let Jeremiah's enemies prevail. Such thought gives him some motivation (verses 11-13) but also some "fallings down" (verses 14-18).
Such "falling down" occurs suddenly, unexpected. Maybe, the thoughts of Jeremiah's revenge (Jer. 37:15, 18:18) appear and are going to happen soon, but what is the price? The city, which Jeremiah loved, is going to be destroyed and his brothers-Jews are going to suffer. Jeremiah's despair becomes so big, so he starts cursing the day when he was born. Those cursings might be metaphorical, as we find some similar in Job 3:1-3. It serves as an expression of big and great sorrow.
«We were the lowest of all people and then Allah gave us glory by Islam, and if we seek glory in anything other that what Allah has given us, Allah will disgrace us.» Umar ibn Khattab

Offline Egyptian

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2012, 10:49:45 AM »


Assalamualiaikom


Thank you brothers for all the comments. If you please bear with me the following crazy thought I have:


 your following thought is neither crazy nor new to my eyes ,actually I once read a similar commentary to yours ,just don't remember where...
still I don't think such understanding to the text convincing ...

It is known what is the contextual difficulty with that text " the shift from thanking God to curse the day of birth ", and some commentators suggested that the words have been transposed, and that the five last verses ought to come in between the eighth and the ninth verse. while others found no problem , and  the Prophet describes what had passed through his own mind, the experience of good men proves that such sudden changes occur.  The Prophet, indeed, acknowledged God's kindness in saving his life, and invited others to join him in praising him: yet when he considered his circumstances, he gave way to his own natural feelings.





Jeremias was not referring to his own birth, he was actually cursing any human being who would bring the tiding to God of having a man child that he rejoices with.


That's difficult to grasp .. from verse 1 till verse 18 we know that Jeremiah is the speaker ,talking about himself.

the tiding was brought to Jeremiah's father not God, and the text from 15 till 18 leaves no doubt that the speaker talking about his own experience.

Jeremiah15 .Cursed be the man who brought the news to my father, saying, "A male child has been born to you," making him glad.16. And that man shall be like the cities that the Lord overturned and did not repent, and let him hear an outcry in the morning and a scream at noontime.17. That he did not put me to death from the womb, that my mother should be my grave and her womb a perpetual pregnancy.18. Why did I come forth out of the womb to see toil and grief, and my days end with shame?



According to the text,the tiding was brought to Jeremiah's father, he wished the day of his birth had never happened , assaulting the bearer of the news of HIS OWN BIRTH. , wished If only the news had not been brought,that the angel of death should have put him to death from the womb of his mother ,better than coming into the world for suffering and grief.


Assalamualiaikom

Offline Antiaparteid

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2012, 08:10:25 AM »
Jesus BLESSED his day of birth because he was a prophet bringing GOOD NEWS. Jerremiah CURSED his day of birth because he was a prophet bringing BAD NEWS. Now get it?

No one is perfect. Not even a prophet. Not Jesus. Not Muhammad. No one. Only God is perfect and without sin.


Offline Daughter of Islam

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2012, 10:39:03 PM »

Quote from Final Overture: Those cursings might be metaphorical, as we find some similar in Job 3:1-3. It serves as an expression of big and great sorrow.

Thank you for your reply but:

 The more I look into the explanation of this verse the more I am convinced of my suggestion, you will see my comments soon.

 A curse is a curse, I have never heard of a metaphorical curse and Job never cursed anybody, not to mention himself. Real Prophets don’t curse the day they are born.

Regards,

Offline Daughter of Islam

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2012, 11:01:59 PM »

Quote from Egyptian: your following thought is neither crazy nor new to my eyes ,actually I once read a similar commentary to yours ,just don't remember where...
still I don't think such understanding to the text convincing ...


Thank you for your reply brother, this discussion has motivated me to look further into it, what began as a crazy thought is now a firm belief :

You see if I read this verse from your same source it would have never caught my attention, my guess that you have the simplified  version.


Jeremiah15.Cursed be the man who brought the news to my father, saying, "A male child has been born to you," making him glad

"Cursed be the man that brought the tidings to my father, saying a man child is born to thee and made him greatly rejoice."

My version say man child not male child and I looked further into other translations:

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible:
 Borun is to thee a knave child. - Old MS. Bible. This is the old English word for man or servant; and is so used by Wiclif, Revelation 12:6.

I also looked into other commentaries :

Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament

In the curse on the man that brought the father the news of the birth, the stress lies on the clause, "who made him very glad,"

Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible:

What is the meaning of this? Does there proceed out of the same mouth blessing and cursing? Could he that said so cheerfully (v. 13), Sing unto the Lord, praise you the Lord, say so passionately (v. 14), Cursed be the day wherein I was born? How shall we reconcile these?.

It is difficult to comprehend, no matter what the context was, how suddenly from singing and praising the Lord he started cursing himself and the man who brought the news although it is well known to us in the eastern region that our men find it shameful to even let the brother of the wife be around during delivery of a baby, it was always the duty of women and Jeremia should have said what is accustomed.

Prophets are chosen people with good morals and patience. Prophet Joseph was persecuted by his brothers then he stayed in the prison for so many years, he never cursed, he was patient he was the symbol of virtues .

Thank you all ,

Offline Final Overture

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2012, 04:32:10 AM »

Quote from Final Overture: Those cursings might be metaphorical, as we find some similar in Job 3:1-3. It serves as an expression of big and great sorrow.

Thank you for your reply but:

 The more I look into the explanation of this verse the more I am convinced of my suggestion, you will see my comments soon.

 A curse is a curse, I have never heard of a metaphorical curse and Job never cursed anybody, not to mention himself. Real Prophets don’t curse the day they are born.

Regards,


Look - Jeremiah 9:11 “I will make Jerusalem a heap of ruins,
    a haunt of jackals
;
and I will lay waste the towns of Judah
    so no one can live there.”

Jeremiah 21:10 I have determined to do this city harm and not good, declares the Lord. It will be given into the hands of the king of Babylon, and he will destroy it with fire.
Or Jeremiah 34:2 ‘This is what the Lord says: I am about to give this city into the hands of the king of Babylon, and he will burn it down.
And people try to kill Jeremiah:
Jeremiah 18:18 " They said, “Come, let’s make plans against Jeremiah; for the teaching of the law by the priest will not cease, nor will counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophets. So come, let’s attack him with our tongues and pay no attention to anything he says.”"

Jeremiah was in such despair, the city, which he loves, Jerusalem, will be destroyed and his brothers will suffer and die. That's why he curses the day when he was born, because then this things won't happen.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 04:37:03 AM by Final Overture »
«We were the lowest of all people and then Allah gave us glory by Islam, and if we seek glory in anything other that what Allah has given us, Allah will disgrace us.» Umar ibn Khattab

Offline Antiaparteid

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2012, 10:29:00 AM »
Dear Daughter of Islam,

You have every right to hold the firm belief that Jeremiah was not a prophet, the same way that any Jew or Christian has every right to hold the firm belief that Muhammad was not a prophet.

Jeremiah was not your, or any muslim's, prophet. No one ever asked you, or any muslim to accept him as a prophet. Jeremiah didn't come to warn muslims. Jeremiah was sent to warn Jews. So, I don't understand how that verse in the bible can bother any muslim.

I'm sure Jews and Christians wonder how muhammad had such a high sex drive and so low self control that he needed 9 wives. But, it is not a Christian's problem to worry about. Thus, as a muslim, please stop worrying about other people's religion, their prophets and the bible. Thank you.

I hope you can now put your mind to rest.

Offline Final Overture

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2012, 05:21:16 PM »
Dear Daughter of Islam,

You have every right to hold the firm belief that Jeremiah was not a prophet, the same way that any Jew or Christian has every right to hold the firm belief that Muhammad was not a prophet.

Jeremiah was not your, or any muslim's, prophet. No one ever asked you, or any muslim to accept him as a prophet. Jeremiah didn't come to warn muslims. Jeremiah was sent to warn Jews. So, I don't understand how that verse in the bible can bother any muslim.

I'm sure Jews and Christians wonder how muhammad had such a high sex drive and so low self control that he needed 9 wives. But, it is not a Christian's problem to worry about. Thus, as a muslim, please stop worrying about other people's religion, their prophets and the bible. Thank you.

I hope you can now put your mind to rest.
And then you say:
Quote
I'm Muslim
You're way too funny Muslim.
«We were the lowest of all people and then Allah gave us glory by Islam, and if we seek glory in anything other that what Allah has given us, Allah will disgrace us.» Umar ibn Khattab

Offline Daughter of Islam

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2012, 05:36:39 AM »
Hello All,

I am going to drop the topic, although its very easy for me to reply to you Antiaparteid and Final overture, because we are drifting from the main issue. We are not here to argue, we suppose to help each other to see the way.

But just for you understand my position, I want to write for you a verse, among lots of verses, I read in the Holy Bible that let me absent minded for a day. You see I only opened my Bible few weeks ago to prepare for one Christian Scholar who was at my door holding it and wanting to guide me, I thought that the truth is hard to find and it’s only for scholars. I am not a scholar in any religion.

John 21:25 

But there are also many other things which Jesus did, which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Then I thought what else did this guy add to the bible as an opinion or as an explanation? How can anybody add a verse in a holy scripture? What about the reliability and credibility of this book?

I never saw or heard an individual who asked God sincerely for guidance and he turned him away. Please I ask you both, to pray to God , what ever pray you want, Jesus way, your way, in the middle of the night when every body is sleeping, or even in the day light . let us all ask him for guidance, it won’t hurt any body, but do it sincerely, stop debating, repeat your prayer and never say , I prayed but there was no answer, and keep looking for the Truth.

Thank you