Author Topic: Creation from clay?  (Read 36916 times)

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Offline mclinkin94

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Creation from clay?
« on: February 17, 2014, 09:46:56 am »
Just wanted to give you a scientific viewpoint of this Quranic consistency

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131105132027.htm
http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/science_blog/110401.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130610220132.htm
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/news/mro20111102.html
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0064624
http://www.universetoday.com/102224/opportunity-discovers-clays-favorable-to-martian-biology-and-sets-sail-for-motherlode-of-new-clues/

Enjoy!

(Qur'an, 23:12) We created man from an extract of clay.

(Quran 32:7) Allah is He who has perfected everything in which he has created, and He began the creation of the human (being) out of clay

Humans were created from clay in stages and Allah has perfected his creation.

(Quran 64:3) ...{Allah has} formed you and perfected your forms

(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.

We were nothing but clay. And we grew from that a progressive growth. Compare to the scientific findings!

Life's molecules originated from Clay, the first cell formed and it has evolved into many species including humans. Where is our origin? Our origin is from an extract of clay. Check out the links and look at their references to read the peer reviewed article they site!


« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 09:54:00 am by mclinkin94 »

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2014, 10:46:27 am »
Just wanted to give you a scientific viewpoint of this Quranic consistency

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131105132027.htm
http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/science_blog/110401.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130610220132.htm
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/news/mro20111102.html
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0064624
http://www.universetoday.com/102224/opportunity-discovers-clays-favorable-to-martian-biology-and-sets-sail-for-motherlode-of-new-clues/

Enjoy!

(Qur'an, 23:12) We created man from an extract of clay.

(Quran 32:7) Allah is He who has perfected everything in which he has created, and He began the creation of the human (being) out of clay

Humans were created from clay in stages and Allah has perfected his creation.

(Quran 64:3) ...{Allah has} formed you and perfected your forms

(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.

We were nothing but clay. And we grew from that a progressive growth. Compare to the scientific findings!

Life's molecules originated from Clay, the first cell formed and it has evolved into many species including humans. Where is our origin? Our origin is from an extract of clay. Check out the links and look at their references to read the peer reviewed article they site!

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Mclinkin94,

Wow, very nice articles akhi!  Jazaka Allah Khayr for this wonderful addition.  Keep up the great work, akhi.  I will insha'Allah add it to the website tonight.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline ali achinxo

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2014, 01:12:02 pm »
As'salamu Alaikum brother,

Thanks for the post. But the sentence about evolution is disappointing to be heard from a Muslim.


Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2014, 03:02:57 pm »
As'salamu Alaikum brother,

Thanks for the post. But the sentence about evolution is disappointing to be heard from a Muslim.

Ouch! LOL :).  I see a big debate about evolution coming up.  I actually owe brother Mclinkin94 two debates:

1-  Why Darwin's evolution isn't supported by Islam.  However, evolution of our bodies changing in sizes and features is supported by Islam.

2-  Why Quran-only sect is deviant.

I was planning on engaging these two discussions thoroughly.  Perhaps it'll happen soon.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2014, 09:08:56 pm »
As'salamu Alaikum brother,

Thanks for the post. But the sentence about evolution is disappointing to be heard from a Muslim.

No it is disappointing to not be heard from a Muslim especially a Muslim who follows the Quran.

(Quran 71:14)  God created you in diverse stages

What are those stages?
1.) Embryological
2.) Evolutionary

Embryological:
Quran 23:12-14, Many Muslims are familiar with this part.

The next part, many of those other Muslims are too stubborn to see (Unfortunately):


Evolutionary: Quran 32:7-9

(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.

We grew from the Earth a progressive growth. Not an instantaneous growth from clay. Processes were involved!

(7)Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

Notice the word perfectedd. Allah perfected everything he created and BEGAN the creation of man. When Allah says he began the creation, that already means that steps were involved. What is amazing about this verse is that it relates to Allah perfecting/improving upon creation and the beginning of human creation from clay. This verse is hinting at a connection. A connection that human beings were made through a process of evolving better than the original creation thus human creation was perfected.

8 Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

Read the verse carefully. AFTER Allah began the creation of man from clay and started the process, Allah has developed sexual reproduction. Notice that this is before the final product (Adam).

(9) Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

Read this carefully too. After sexual reproduction (previous verse) Allah then further proportioned HIM (Adam) and breathed into him the soul and gave Adam higher intelligence.

That means that Adam was created through sexual reproduction...

These are the diverse stages Allah is referring to .


Another verse that shows Adam had parents:

(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance (Alaq or embryo).

Is Allah ever short of words? man is created from an embryo. Including Adam. That means that Adam had a father and a mother. Think about the evolutionary implicaiton.

Here is another one that shows Adam had parents:


So who is Adam? Adam is the one that Allah has chosen to succeed and has chosen us to be descended from (Quran 3:33)

One last important hint:

(Quran 64:3) He designed you then perfected your design.
(Quran 40:64) He formed you then perfected your design


Allah designed us, THEN made our designs good. Think of the evolutionary implication.

ONE MORE IMPORTANT HINT:

(QURAN 7:11)And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], THEN given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"


We were created in one form (early hominid), THEN given another form (human form), THEN Allah made the angels prostrate to Adam. Look at the sequence of events and the evolutionary implication.  We were created in a form, then given human form, Then Adam was created, then Allah made the angels prostrate to him. That means that the creation of Adam involved many diverse stages.


This is one of the Quran's biggest scientific consistency and it would defeat the atheists down to their necks. The Quran supported evolution and the creation of humans in stages long before Darwin. The Quran has highlighted that we were created from clay minerals (extract of clay).






« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 09:13:30 pm by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2014, 09:32:05 pm »
As'salamu Alaikum brother,

Thanks for the post. But the sentence about evolution is disappointing to be heard from a Muslim.

Ouch! LOL :).  I see a big debate about evolution coming up.  I actually owe brother Mclinkin94 two debates:

1-  Why Darwin's evolution isn't supported by Islam.  However, evolution of our bodies changing in sizes and features is supported by Islam.

2-  Why Quran-only sect is deviant.

I was planning on engaging these two discussions thoroughly.  Perhaps it'll happen soon.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Inshallah. If you find time, let me know.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 01:52:35 pm by mclinkin94 »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2014, 05:05:20 am »
If you mean me Usama , we already did . And I can still open the dictionary at any time to show you all that perfecting something doesn't mean on any planet a bear turning into a whale . And here it is again :
http://www.almaany.com/home.php?language=arabic&lang_name=%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%8A&word=%D8%A3%D8%AD%D8%B3%D9%86

Quote
أَحْسَنَ: ( فعل )
أحسنَ / أحسنَ إلى / أحسنَ بـ يُحسِن ، إحسانًا ، فهو محسِن ، والمفعول مُحسَن - للمتعدِّي
أحسنَ الشَّخصُ : فعل ما هو حَسَنٌ ، ضدّ أساء { إِنْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ لأَنْفُسِكُمْ }
أَحْسَنَ إِلَيْهِ وَبِهِ : أَعْطَاهُ الحَسَنَةَ
أَحْسَنَ الشيءَ : أَجاد صُنعه ، وفي التنزيل العزيز : غافر آية 64 وَصَوَّرَكُمْ فَأَحْسَنَ صُوَرَكُمْ ) )
أَحْسَنَ العَزْفَ على الكَمانِ : أَتْقَنَهُ
أَحْسَنَ التَّصَرُّفَ مَعَهُ : أَتَى بِالحَسَنِ

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2014, 04:56:36 pm »
If you mean me Usama , we already did . And I can still open the dictionary at any time to show you all that perfecting something doesn't mean on any planet a bear turning into a whale . And here it is again :
http://www.almaany.com/home.php?language=arabic&lang_name=%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%8A&word=%D8%A3%D8%AD%D8%B3%D9%86

Quote
أَحْسَنَ: ( فعل )
أحسنَ / أحسنَ إلى / أحسنَ بـ يُحسِن ، إحسانًا ، فهو محسِن ، والمفعول مُحسَن - للمتعدِّي
أحسنَ الشَّخصُ : فعل ما هو حَسَنٌ ، ضدّ أساء { إِنْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ لأَنْفُسِكُمْ }
أَحْسَنَ إِلَيْهِ وَبِهِ : أَعْطَاهُ الحَسَنَةَ
أَحْسَنَ الشيءَ : أَجاد صُنعه ، وفي التنزيل العزيز : غافر آية 64 وَصَوَّرَكُمْ فَأَحْسَنَ صُوَرَكُمْ ) )
أَحْسَنَ العَزْفَ على الكَمانِ : أَتْقَنَهُ
أَحْسَنَ التَّصَرُّفَ مَعَهُ : أَتَى بِالحَسَنِ

All that verse (32:7) is saying is that the creation of humans involved stages of perfecting. Again, If Allah wanted to say that he created humans perfect (NOT in stages), All he had to do is say "I created humans perfect". But instead, Allah tells you that he perfected the creation of humans. This implys that the creation of humans (including Adam) involved stages of perfection. This is further shown in this verse:

(Quran 71:14)  God created you in diverse stages

Science has shown us that those stages are evolutionary stages. We literally grew from the earth in stages from clay. Hence the verse:

(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.
_____

Again, if Allah wanted to say that he created humans perfect and humans did not undergo stages of perfection he would not say:

(Quran 64:3) He designed you then perfected your design.
(Quran 40:64) He formed you then perfected your design

(Quran 7:11) have certainly created you [O Mankind], THEN shaped you

Why is there a time lapse from our formation and the perfection of our formation in this verse? Why are they 2 distinct things? Why didn't Allah just say he created us perfect rather than he designed us THEN perfected our design? I ask you again is Allah ever short of words?






« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 04:59:22 pm by mclinkin94 »

Offline ali achinxo

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2014, 05:14:59 pm »
Sallamualaykum,

First, you have a presupposition that evolution is a fact, which it is far from. But since the discussion is about Does Islam support evolution we will leave that out to discuss later.

Ok. You say that Allah says: He designed you then perfected your design.

Sorry but that or the other verses do not show evidence for evolution. I will Explain more in next post


Offline ali achinxo

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2014, 05:21:54 pm »
Allah did create Humans in stages. No one disagrees. But where is your evidence that they were stages of evolution.

We agree that Allah:

1) Designed Adam
2) Created Adam from Earth, Dust, Clay..etc
3) Created Adam in stages
4) Perfected Adam

Correct?

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2014, 05:32:37 pm »
Allah did create Humans in stages. No one disagrees. But where is your evidence that they were stages of evolution.

We agree that Allah:

1) Designed Adam
2) Created Adam from Earth, Dust, Clay..etc
3) Created Adam in stages
4) Perfected Adam

Correct?

The first thing I need to say is that the Quran obviously did not explicitly state that humans descended from ape-like hominids or that we share a common ancestor with apes. There are many reasons why Allah would withhold that information. One is that the people of the 7th century would have thought Muhammad was absurd and crazy (people still think evolution is a crazy idea) and they would never become Muslims in the first place. So when we speak of the Quran supporting evolution, we mean that the idea of evolution is hinted at in the Quran and the Quran is in support of the idea of evolution and not against it. This is NOT like the Bible which does not contradict evolution. We are showing that the Quran goes as far as supporting the basic idea of evolution.


Yes. "Created Adam in stages", should be "Created Adam in diverse stages"

To add further, Adam was not the first human and he had a father and a mother.

We should add:

5) Created Adam in a womb.

Why do I say that Adam has a father? Because ALL humans were created from an embryo. And being created from an embryo implies having parents.

(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance (Alaq or embryo)

Adam was chosen over others AND he descended from others:

(Quran 35:11) And Allah did create you from dust; then from a reproductive fluid; then He made you in pairs

ADAM was created from dust, THEN from a reproductive fluid and THEN humans were made in pairs

That means that Adam was created through sexual reproduction.

(Quran 2:30) And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority.

^Adam was a successor on the earth: Who did he succeed? If you say Jinn, show a Quranic reference please: otherwise you have no argument. Nowhere does the Quran say we succeeded Jinn, it said that we are successors of the Earth.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 01:57:11 pm by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2014, 05:45:38 pm »
The next thing to add to your list.

#6) Adam was created in a long period of time and there was a long period of time before the creation of Adam

(Quran 76:1) Has there come on man a long period of time when he was a thing unremembered?

^Long period of time before the creation of humans.

15:26 We have created the human being from hardened clay of aged mud.

This verse above, describing the mud with the word masnun, pulls our attention to the lengthy time span of creation.

(((Please let me know when I could continue with other additions that need to take place in the list.)))
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 05:52:46 pm by mclinkin94 »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2014, 05:40:03 am »
Quote
أحسنَ / أحسنَ إلى / أحسنَ بـ يُحسِن ، إحسانًا ، فهو محسِن ، والمفعول مُحسَن - للمتعدِّي
أحسنَ الشَّخصُ : فعل ما هو حَسَنٌ ، ضدّ أساء { إِنْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ لأَنْفُسِكُمْ }
أَحْسَنَ إِلَيْهِ وَبِهِ : أَعْطَاهُ الحَسَنَةَ
أَحْسَنَ الشيءَ : أَجاد صُنعه ، وفي التنزيل العزيز : غافر آية 64 وَصَوَّرَكُمْ فَأَحْسَنَ صُوَرَكُمْ ) )
أَحْسَنَ العَزْفَ على الكَمانِ : أَتْقَنَهُ
أَحْسَنَ التَّصَرُّفَ مَعَهُ : أَتَى بِالحَسَنِ
It's funny how the underlined is the bottom of the line while you shove it aside like it's nothing .

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2014, 04:05:02 pm »
Quote
أحسنَ / أحسنَ إلى / أحسنَ بـ يُحسِن ، إحسانًا ، فهو محسِن ، والمفعول مُحسَن - للمتعدِّي
أحسنَ الشَّخصُ : فعل ما هو حَسَنٌ ، ضدّ أساء { إِنْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ لأَنْفُسِكُمْ }
أَحْسَنَ إِلَيْهِ وَبِهِ : أَعْطَاهُ الحَسَنَةَ
أَحْسَنَ الشيءَ : أَجاد صُنعه ، وفي التنزيل العزيز : غافر آية 64 وَصَوَّرَكُمْ فَأَحْسَنَ صُوَرَكُمْ ) )
أَحْسَنَ العَزْفَ على الكَمانِ : أَتْقَنَهُ
أَحْسَنَ التَّصَرُّفَ مَعَهُ : أَتَى بِالحَسَنِ
It's funny how the underlined is the bottom of the line while you shove it aside like it's nothing .

You must have disregarded everything else I have said.

Let me paraphrase Quran 32:7-9:

Allah makes perfect everything he creates and he started the creation of a human being from clay. Then Allah has created sexual reproduction. Then Allah has further proportioned us and given us higher intelligence and minds.

Evolutionary, the first cells have formed and they have further evolved. Sexual reproduction developed which had allowed variation to occur and through that variation and natural selection, his creatures have evolved higher intelligence and vision and hearing.

It must be a coincidence that this verse parallels exactly how evolution on earth happened and it must be a coincidence this verse also refers to the perfecting of everything that Allah created.

But, I wanted to restate what I have been saying the whole time:

You could interpret the beginning of this verse (ahsana) in two valid ways:

1.) Allah creates everything perfect
2.) Allah makes everything that he created perfect

So how do we find out which one the Quran is talking about #1 or #2? Or could it be that the Quran is trying to tell you both?

The reason why I support translation 2 is because it seems to better fit the context in showing the process of how Allah starts creation from nothing (clay) and develops it through many stages into a conscious human being. That is how Allah perfected everything that he created. Another reason why I support translation #2 is through comparing this verse with other verses. TWICE the Quran has told us that Allah has formed us THEN made our forms good or perfected our forms in Quran 64:3 and 40:64. This again supports translation #2 of Quran 32:7-9 that Allah makes everything that he has already created better/good/perfect.
---

Here is yet another reason why I appeal to translation #2 over the first one.

(Quran 35:1) All praise is due to Allah , Creator of the heavens and the earth, who made the angels messengers having wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

Take a closer read at the above verse and ask yourself what concept Allah wants you to get from this. In this verse, Allah informs us that he increases the complexity of creation. He adds onto his creation things--He improves upon/perfects his creation. This verse is informing us that Allah increases complexity in creation and that he works through improving creation. Also notice what chapter this verse happens to be coincidentally in. The chapter name is "The originator". Just by mere juxtaposition, the Quran informs us that Allah originates creation and he adds on to creation. Now look at this verse in reference to 32:7. Now do you see why I appeal to translation #2? Allah prefects his creation, he improves it, he adds on to it, he makes it good. Allah perfects his creation.


Here is another verse that shows how Allah perfects creation. This verse shows that humans went through a significant evolutionary event during Noah's time.

(Quran 7:69) “Are you surprised that a reminder has come to you from your Lord through a man from amongst you to warn you? Recall that he made you successors after the people of Noah, and He improved you in creation. So recall God’s blessings that you may succeed.”

This above verse has not only showed that humans went through a significant evolutionary event during Noah's time, but it has also shown that natural selection is the mechanism that Allah improves his creation! By killing off the humans who rejected Allah in Noah's time and saving the humans who did believe in Allah and possessed the intelligence to maintain such a belief, Allah has improved humans in creation. Not only did the Quran show that Allah perfects/improves creation, but the Quran has just shown us that Allah's mechanism of improvement is through natural selection. It must be a coincidence.....
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 12:43:00 am by mclinkin94 »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2014, 12:30:52 am »
I'll let people judge .