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Offline mclinkin94

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Creation from clay?
« on: February 17, 2014, 09:46:56 AM »
Just wanted to give you a scientific viewpoint of this Quranic consistency

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131105132027.htm
http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/science_blog/110401.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130610220132.htm
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/news/mro20111102.html
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0064624
http://www.universetoday.com/102224/opportunity-discovers-clays-favorable-to-martian-biology-and-sets-sail-for-motherlode-of-new-clues/

Enjoy!

(Qur'an, 23:12) We created man from an extract of clay.

(Quran 32:7) Allah is He who has perfected everything in which he has created, and He began the creation of the human (being) out of clay

Humans were created from clay in stages and Allah has perfected his creation.

(Quran 64:3) ...{Allah has} formed you and perfected your forms

(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.

We were nothing but clay. And we grew from that a progressive growth. Compare to the scientific findings!

Life's molecules originated from Clay, the first cell formed and it has evolved into many species including humans. Where is our origin? Our origin is from an extract of clay. Check out the links and look at their references to read the peer reviewed article they site!


« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 09:54:00 AM by mclinkin94 »

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2014, 10:46:27 AM »
Just wanted to give you a scientific viewpoint of this Quranic consistency

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131105132027.htm
http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/science_blog/110401.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130610220132.htm
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/news/mro20111102.html
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0064624
http://www.universetoday.com/102224/opportunity-discovers-clays-favorable-to-martian-biology-and-sets-sail-for-motherlode-of-new-clues/

Enjoy!

(Qur'an, 23:12) We created man from an extract of clay.

(Quran 32:7) Allah is He who has perfected everything in which he has created, and He began the creation of the human (being) out of clay

Humans were created from clay in stages and Allah has perfected his creation.

(Quran 64:3) ...{Allah has} formed you and perfected your forms

(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.

We were nothing but clay. And we grew from that a progressive growth. Compare to the scientific findings!

Life's molecules originated from Clay, the first cell formed and it has evolved into many species including humans. Where is our origin? Our origin is from an extract of clay. Check out the links and look at their references to read the peer reviewed article they site!

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Mclinkin94,

Wow, very nice articles akhi!  Jazaka Allah Khayr for this wonderful addition.  Keep up the great work, akhi.  I will insha'Allah add it to the website tonight.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline ali achinxo

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2014, 01:12:02 PM »
As'salamu Alaikum brother,

Thanks for the post. But the sentence about evolution is disappointing to be heard from a Muslim.


Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2014, 03:02:57 PM »
As'salamu Alaikum brother,

Thanks for the post. But the sentence about evolution is disappointing to be heard from a Muslim.

Ouch! LOL :).  I see a big debate about evolution coming up.  I actually owe brother Mclinkin94 two debates:

1-  Why Darwin's evolution isn't supported by Islam.  However, evolution of our bodies changing in sizes and features is supported by Islam.

2-  Why Quran-only sect is deviant.

I was planning on engaging these two discussions thoroughly.  Perhaps it'll happen soon.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2014, 09:08:56 PM »
As'salamu Alaikum brother,

Thanks for the post. But the sentence about evolution is disappointing to be heard from a Muslim.

No it is disappointing to not be heard from a Muslim especially a Muslim who follows the Quran.

(Quran 71:14)  God created you in diverse stages

What are those stages?
1.) Embryological
2.) Evolutionary

Embryological:
Quran 23:12-14, Many Muslims are familiar with this part.

The next part, many of those other Muslims are too stubborn to see (Unfortunately):


Evolutionary: Quran 32:7-9

(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.

We grew from the Earth a progressive growth. Not an instantaneous growth from clay. Processes were involved!

(7)Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

Notice the word perfectedd. Allah perfected everything he created and BEGAN the creation of man. When Allah says he began the creation, that already means that steps were involved. What is amazing about this verse is that it relates to Allah perfecting/improving upon creation and the beginning of human creation from clay. This verse is hinting at a connection. A connection that human beings were made through a process of evolving better than the original creation thus human creation was perfected.

8 Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

Read the verse carefully. AFTER Allah began the creation of man from clay and started the process, Allah has developed sexual reproduction. Notice that this is before the final product (Adam).

(9) Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

Read this carefully too. After sexual reproduction (previous verse) Allah then further proportioned HIM (Adam) and breathed into him the soul and gave Adam higher intelligence.

That means that Adam was created through sexual reproduction...

These are the diverse stages Allah is referring to .


Another verse that shows Adam had parents:

(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance (Alaq or embryo).

Is Allah ever short of words? man is created from an embryo. Including Adam. That means that Adam had a father and a mother. Think about the evolutionary implicaiton.

Here is another one that shows Adam had parents:


So who is Adam? Adam is the one that Allah has chosen to succeed and has chosen us to be descended from (Quran 3:33)

One last important hint:

(Quran 64:3) He designed you then perfected your design.
(Quran 40:64) He formed you then perfected your design


Allah designed us, THEN made our designs good. Think of the evolutionary implication.

ONE MORE IMPORTANT HINT:

(QURAN 7:11)And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], THEN given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"


We were created in one form (early hominid), THEN given another form (human form), THEN Allah made the angels prostrate to Adam. Look at the sequence of events and the evolutionary implication.  We were created in a form, then given human form, Then Adam was created, then Allah made the angels prostrate to him. That means that the creation of Adam involved many diverse stages.


This is one of the Quran's biggest scientific consistency and it would defeat the atheists down to their necks. The Quran supported evolution and the creation of humans in stages long before Darwin. The Quran has highlighted that we were created from clay minerals (extract of clay).






« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 09:13:30 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2014, 09:32:05 PM »
As'salamu Alaikum brother,

Thanks for the post. But the sentence about evolution is disappointing to be heard from a Muslim.

Ouch! LOL :).  I see a big debate about evolution coming up.  I actually owe brother Mclinkin94 two debates:

1-  Why Darwin's evolution isn't supported by Islam.  However, evolution of our bodies changing in sizes and features is supported by Islam.

2-  Why Quran-only sect is deviant.

I was planning on engaging these two discussions thoroughly.  Perhaps it'll happen soon.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Inshallah. If you find time, let me know.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 01:52:35 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2014, 05:05:20 AM »
If you mean me Usama , we already did . And I can still open the dictionary at any time to show you all that perfecting something doesn't mean on any planet a bear turning into a whale . And here it is again :
http://www.almaany.com/home.php?language=arabic&lang_name=%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%8A&word=%D8%A3%D8%AD%D8%B3%D9%86

Quote
أَحْسَنَ: ( فعل )
أحسنَ / أحسنَ إلى / أحسنَ بـ يُحسِن ، إحسانًا ، فهو محسِن ، والمفعول مُحسَن - للمتعدِّي
أحسنَ الشَّخصُ : فعل ما هو حَسَنٌ ، ضدّ أساء { إِنْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ لأَنْفُسِكُمْ }
أَحْسَنَ إِلَيْهِ وَبِهِ : أَعْطَاهُ الحَسَنَةَ
أَحْسَنَ الشيءَ : أَجاد صُنعه ، وفي التنزيل العزيز : غافر آية 64 وَصَوَّرَكُمْ فَأَحْسَنَ صُوَرَكُمْ ) )
أَحْسَنَ العَزْفَ على الكَمانِ : أَتْقَنَهُ
أَحْسَنَ التَّصَرُّفَ مَعَهُ : أَتَى بِالحَسَنِ

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2014, 04:56:36 PM »
If you mean me Usama , we already did . And I can still open the dictionary at any time to show you all that perfecting something doesn't mean on any planet a bear turning into a whale . And here it is again :
http://www.almaany.com/home.php?language=arabic&lang_name=%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%8A&word=%D8%A3%D8%AD%D8%B3%D9%86

Quote
أَحْسَنَ: ( فعل )
أحسنَ / أحسنَ إلى / أحسنَ بـ يُحسِن ، إحسانًا ، فهو محسِن ، والمفعول مُحسَن - للمتعدِّي
أحسنَ الشَّخصُ : فعل ما هو حَسَنٌ ، ضدّ أساء { إِنْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ لأَنْفُسِكُمْ }
أَحْسَنَ إِلَيْهِ وَبِهِ : أَعْطَاهُ الحَسَنَةَ
أَحْسَنَ الشيءَ : أَجاد صُنعه ، وفي التنزيل العزيز : غافر آية 64 وَصَوَّرَكُمْ فَأَحْسَنَ صُوَرَكُمْ ) )
أَحْسَنَ العَزْفَ على الكَمانِ : أَتْقَنَهُ
أَحْسَنَ التَّصَرُّفَ مَعَهُ : أَتَى بِالحَسَنِ

All that verse (32:7) is saying is that the creation of humans involved stages of perfecting. Again, If Allah wanted to say that he created humans perfect (NOT in stages), All he had to do is say "I created humans perfect". But instead, Allah tells you that he perfected the creation of humans. This implys that the creation of humans (including Adam) involved stages of perfection. This is further shown in this verse:

(Quran 71:14)  God created you in diverse stages

Science has shown us that those stages are evolutionary stages. We literally grew from the earth in stages from clay. Hence the verse:

(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.
_____

Again, if Allah wanted to say that he created humans perfect and humans did not undergo stages of perfection he would not say:

(Quran 64:3) He designed you then perfected your design.
(Quran 40:64) He formed you then perfected your design

(Quran 7:11) have certainly created you [O Mankind], THEN shaped you

Why is there a time lapse from our formation and the perfection of our formation in this verse? Why are they 2 distinct things? Why didn't Allah just say he created us perfect rather than he designed us THEN perfected our design? I ask you again is Allah ever short of words?






« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 04:59:22 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline ali achinxo

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2014, 05:14:59 PM »
Sallamualaykum,

First, you have a presupposition that evolution is a fact, which it is far from. But since the discussion is about Does Islam support evolution we will leave that out to discuss later.

Ok. You say that Allah says: He designed you then perfected your design.

Sorry but that or the other verses do not show evidence for evolution. I will Explain more in next post


Offline ali achinxo

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2014, 05:21:54 PM »
Allah did create Humans in stages. No one disagrees. But where is your evidence that they were stages of evolution.

We agree that Allah:

1) Designed Adam
2) Created Adam from Earth, Dust, Clay..etc
3) Created Adam in stages
4) Perfected Adam

Correct?

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2014, 05:32:37 PM »
Allah did create Humans in stages. No one disagrees. But where is your evidence that they were stages of evolution.

We agree that Allah:

1) Designed Adam
2) Created Adam from Earth, Dust, Clay..etc
3) Created Adam in stages
4) Perfected Adam

Correct?

The first thing I need to say is that the Quran obviously did not explicitly state that humans descended from ape-like hominids or that we share a common ancestor with apes. There are many reasons why Allah would withhold that information. One is that the people of the 7th century would have thought Muhammad was absurd and crazy (people still think evolution is a crazy idea) and they would never become Muslims in the first place. So when we speak of the Quran supporting evolution, we mean that the idea of evolution is hinted at in the Quran and the Quran is in support of the idea of evolution and not against it. This is NOT like the Bible which does not contradict evolution. We are showing that the Quran goes as far as supporting the basic idea of evolution.


Yes. "Created Adam in stages", should be "Created Adam in diverse stages"

To add further, Adam was not the first human and he had a father and a mother.

We should add:

5) Created Adam in a womb.

Why do I say that Adam has a father? Because ALL humans were created from an embryo. And being created from an embryo implies having parents.

(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance (Alaq or embryo)

Adam was chosen over others AND he descended from others:

(Quran 35:11) And Allah did create you from dust; then from a reproductive fluid; then He made you in pairs

ADAM was created from dust, THEN from a reproductive fluid and THEN humans were made in pairs

That means that Adam was created through sexual reproduction.

(Quran 2:30) And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority.

^Adam was a successor on the earth: Who did he succeed? If you say Jinn, show a Quranic reference please: otherwise you have no argument. Nowhere does the Quran say we succeeded Jinn, it said that we are successors of the Earth.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 01:57:11 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2014, 05:45:38 PM »
The next thing to add to your list.

#6) Adam was created in a long period of time and there was a long period of time before the creation of Adam

(Quran 76:1) Has there come on man a long period of time when he was a thing unremembered?

^Long period of time before the creation of humans.

15:26 We have created the human being from hardened clay of aged mud.

This verse above, describing the mud with the word masnun, pulls our attention to the lengthy time span of creation.

(((Please let me know when I could continue with other additions that need to take place in the list.)))
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 05:52:46 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2014, 05:40:03 AM »
Quote
أحسنَ / أحسنَ إلى / أحسنَ بـ يُحسِن ، إحسانًا ، فهو محسِن ، والمفعول مُحسَن - للمتعدِّي
أحسنَ الشَّخصُ : فعل ما هو حَسَنٌ ، ضدّ أساء { إِنْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ لأَنْفُسِكُمْ }
أَحْسَنَ إِلَيْهِ وَبِهِ : أَعْطَاهُ الحَسَنَةَ
أَحْسَنَ الشيءَ : أَجاد صُنعه ، وفي التنزيل العزيز : غافر آية 64 وَصَوَّرَكُمْ فَأَحْسَنَ صُوَرَكُمْ ) )
أَحْسَنَ العَزْفَ على الكَمانِ : أَتْقَنَهُ
أَحْسَنَ التَّصَرُّفَ مَعَهُ : أَتَى بِالحَسَنِ
It's funny how the underlined is the bottom of the line while you shove it aside like it's nothing .

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2014, 04:05:02 PM »
Quote
أحسنَ / أحسنَ إلى / أحسنَ بـ يُحسِن ، إحسانًا ، فهو محسِن ، والمفعول مُحسَن - للمتعدِّي
أحسنَ الشَّخصُ : فعل ما هو حَسَنٌ ، ضدّ أساء { إِنْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ أَحْسَنْتُمْ لأَنْفُسِكُمْ }
أَحْسَنَ إِلَيْهِ وَبِهِ : أَعْطَاهُ الحَسَنَةَ
أَحْسَنَ الشيءَ : أَجاد صُنعه ، وفي التنزيل العزيز : غافر آية 64 وَصَوَّرَكُمْ فَأَحْسَنَ صُوَرَكُمْ ) )
أَحْسَنَ العَزْفَ على الكَمانِ : أَتْقَنَهُ
أَحْسَنَ التَّصَرُّفَ مَعَهُ : أَتَى بِالحَسَنِ
It's funny how the underlined is the bottom of the line while you shove it aside like it's nothing .

You must have disregarded everything else I have said.

Let me paraphrase Quran 32:7-9:

Allah makes perfect everything he creates and he started the creation of a human being from clay. Then Allah has created sexual reproduction. Then Allah has further proportioned us and given us higher intelligence and minds.

Evolutionary, the first cells have formed and they have further evolved. Sexual reproduction developed which had allowed variation to occur and through that variation and natural selection, his creatures have evolved higher intelligence and vision and hearing.

It must be a coincidence that this verse parallels exactly how evolution on earth happened and it must be a coincidence this verse also refers to the perfecting of everything that Allah created.

But, I wanted to restate what I have been saying the whole time:

You could interpret the beginning of this verse (ahsana) in two valid ways:

1.) Allah creates everything perfect
2.) Allah makes everything that he created perfect

So how do we find out which one the Quran is talking about #1 or #2? Or could it be that the Quran is trying to tell you both?

The reason why I support translation 2 is because it seems to better fit the context in showing the process of how Allah starts creation from nothing (clay) and develops it through many stages into a conscious human being. That is how Allah perfected everything that he created. Another reason why I support translation #2 is through comparing this verse with other verses. TWICE the Quran has told us that Allah has formed us THEN made our forms good or perfected our forms in Quran 64:3 and 40:64. This again supports translation #2 of Quran 32:7-9 that Allah makes everything that he has already created better/good/perfect.
---

Here is yet another reason why I appeal to translation #2 over the first one.

(Quran 35:1) All praise is due to Allah , Creator of the heavens and the earth, who made the angels messengers having wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

Take a closer read at the above verse and ask yourself what concept Allah wants you to get from this. In this verse, Allah informs us that he increases the complexity of creation. He adds onto his creation things--He improves upon/perfects his creation. This verse is informing us that Allah increases complexity in creation and that he works through improving creation. Also notice what chapter this verse happens to be coincidentally in. The chapter name is "The originator". Just by mere juxtaposition, the Quran informs us that Allah originates creation and he adds on to creation. Now look at this verse in reference to 32:7. Now do you see why I appeal to translation #2? Allah prefects his creation, he improves it, he adds on to it, he makes it good. Allah perfects his creation.


Here is another verse that shows how Allah perfects creation. This verse shows that humans went through a significant evolutionary event during Noah's time.

(Quran 7:69) “Are you surprised that a reminder has come to you from your Lord through a man from amongst you to warn you? Recall that he made you successors after the people of Noah, and He improved you in creation. So recall God’s blessings that you may succeed.”

This above verse has not only showed that humans went through a significant evolutionary event during Noah's time, but it has also shown that natural selection is the mechanism that Allah improves his creation! By killing off the humans who rejected Allah in Noah's time and saving the humans who did believe in Allah and possessed the intelligence to maintain such a belief, Allah has improved humans in creation. Not only did the Quran show that Allah perfects/improves creation, but the Quran has just shown us that Allah's mechanism of improvement is through natural selection. It must be a coincidence.....
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 12:43:00 AM by mclinkin94 »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2014, 12:30:52 AM »
I'll let people judge .

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2014, 08:46:17 PM »
I'll let people judge .

Or you could discuss? I don't see my arguments as invalid.

Offline ali achinxo

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2014, 11:49:14 AM »
It would of been easier for me to respond to you if you had arranged your arguments in order, and so our responses arent allover the place. But anyway lets deal with your points:

(1)

Lets look at 71:13-14:

What is the matter with you, you hope not for reward. While He has created you in (different) stages.

Those who support evolutionary creation interpret the words successive stages as meaning "going through evolutionary stages." However, interpreting the Arabic word atwaran as evolutionary stages, which is no more than a personal opinion, is not unanimously accepted by all Islamic scholars.

Here, you mis-interpreted the verse. This Ayah is referring to the stages of embryonic development. i.e. first Nutfah, then 'Alaqah and then Mudghah, see 23:13,14 of the Quran.

Initially you were only valueless semen, and in a short period of time the Fashioner God
gave you the face of علقه embryo (fertilized egg) and after that made you in form of مضغه foetus then shaped you in the figure of man then clothed your body with the dress of existence blessed with soul, senses and movements. Similarly you improved one after another in many stages of foetus. Subsequently you acquired the complete face and your mother gave you birth. For a second time you carried on the ways of life in varied outward appearances and stages until the end of time. You had been always under the command of his lordship. You are constantly renovating by the God who provides you every time a new profile.

In Imam al-Tabari's commentary, Surah Nuh: 14 is translated as "In fact, he created you by stages," and interpreted this as meaning, "You were first in the form of a sperm, then He created you as a blood clot, then a small piece of flesh." (Imam at-Tabari, Tabari Commentary, vol. 6, p. 2631)

As we see here, Muslim Qur'anic scholars agree that the interpretation of Surah Nuh: 14 refers to the process involved in the development of the human being from the joining of a sperm and an egg. That the verse is to be interpreted in this way is clear from the principle of "interpreting Qur'anic verses in the light of other Qur'anic verses," because in other verses Allah explains the stages of creation as being those inside the mother's womb. That is why atwaran has to be translated in this way. It is not justified to use the word as support for the theory of evolution, which tries to tie the origins of man to another living species.

Also it maybe referring to the creation of Allah with his hands. Allah created Adam, then fasioned him, then left him for a while then breathed into him.

(2)

(Quran 35:1) All praise is due to Allah , Creator of the heavens and the earth, who made the angels messengers having wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

This Ayah does not even come close to hinting evolution never mind evidence for it. Its just absurd how you make these weird interpretations, and you come up with some delusional connections. Maybe if you stuck to the Usool-at-Tafsir and used authentic Islamic methodological processes you would not get caught up in this misdirection and Fitan.

Basically what it is saying is that Allah can increase in creation whatever He wills. It is general but also specifically referring to the subject of the Angels. Lets look at the classical scholar Ibn Kathirs Tafseer:

"two or three or four. means, among them are some who have two wings, some have three and some who have four. Some have more than that, as stated in the Hadith mentioning that the Messenger of Allah saw Jibrael, peace be upon him, on the Night of the Isra' with six hundred wings. Between each pair of wings was a distance like that between the east and the west. Alla0h says:

﴿يَزِيدُ فِى الْخَلْقِ مَا يَشَآءُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَىْءٍ قَدِيرٌ﴾

(He increases in creation what He wills. Verily, Allah is Able to do all things.) As-Suddi said, "He increases their wings and creates them as He wills.''

(3)

Lets look at real Quran 7:69:

Why, do you deem it strange that a tiding from your Sustainer should have come unto you through a man from among yourselves, so that he might warn you? Do but remember how He made you heirs to Noah’s people, and endowed you abundantly with power: remember, then, God’s blessings, so that you might attain to a happy state!"

v.69 means: Lit., “successors after Noah’s people” – i.e., the most numerous and powerful of all the tribes that descended from Noah – “and increased you abundantly in respect of [your] natural endowment (khalq).” The latter term also signifies “power” (Rāzī).

...and gave you a stature tall among the nations. (Yusuf Ali)
...gave you increased strength in physique (Mufti Uthmani)
...raising you amply augmented your power (Tahiral Qadri)
...and gave you growth of stature (Pickthall)
...and increased you in stature broadly (Arberry)

We need not to explain, as the ayah is evident.

And subhannallah the explanation you gave for that Ayah, it was hilarious LOOOL. Are you hearing yourself.

(4)

You say:

//Adam was created in a long period of time and there was a long period of time before the creation of Adam

(Quran 76:1) Has there come on man a long period of time when he was a thing unremembered?"//

Nope it doesnt say Adam was created in a long period of time. It says there was a long period of time when man was not a thing worth mentioning. It could be the time when man was not created or it could be when man was a embryo, or it could be the period of time when Allah shaped Adam and left him to harden.

//^Long period of time before the creation of humans.

15:26 We have created the human being from hardened clay of aged mud.

This verse above, describing the mud with the word masnun, pulls our attention to the lengthy time span of creation.//

And? Where does this hint of evolution. It doesnt rather you have a presupposition that you desire to apply to any verse.

lam yakun : he was not
shay'an : a thing
madhkuran :mentioned

Man came into being long after the beginning of time and the creation of the universe. Imam al-Tabari explains the verse as meaning: "Such a long period of time passed since the time of Adam that at that time he was not even a thing that had any worth and superiority. He was nothing but sticky and modified clay." (Imam at-Tabari, Tabari Commentary, vol. 6, p. 2684)

Also this clay was sticky – or it was said, viscous – as it says in the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, We created them of a sticky clay” [al-Saaffaat 37:11] 

Also Masnun means modified and stinking. And it says in Lisaan al-‘Arab (13/227):

“Masnoon means muntin (stinking), as in the verse ‘min hamaa’in masnoon.’ Abu ‘Amr said: this means altered and stinking. Abu’l-Haytham said: sunna al-ma’, fa huwa masnoon, i.e., the water changed, so it was altered (masnoon).”

(5)

Adam didnt have a father. Adam was created by Allah from dust/clay..etc. It is the rest of the Human race that are created through the process of embryonic development. 

(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance (Alaq or embryo)

This refers to the rest of the human population except for our Father Adam who was created from dust as stated in the Quran.

This Ayah refutes you again.

Almighty Allah also revealed: And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, "Prostrate to Adam", and they prostrated, except Iblis, he refused to be those who prostrate. Allah said: "What prevented you (O Iblis) that you did not postrate when I commanded you?" Iblis said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire and him You created from clay." (7:11-12)

Clearly here it is shown Adam is created from clay.

(6)

You said: //Adam was chosen over others AND he descended from others:

(Quran 3:33-34) "Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds. DESCENDANTS, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing"

(Quran 35:11) And Allah did create you from dust; then from a reproductive fluid; then He made you in pairs

ADAM was created from dust, THEN from a reproductive fluid and THEN humans were made in pairs

That means that Adam was created through sexual reproduction.

(Quran 2:30) And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority.

^Adam was a successor on the earth: Who did he succeed? If you say Jinn, show a Quranic reference please: otherwise you have no argument. Nowhere does the Quran say we succeeded Jinn, it said that we are successors of the Earth.//

First, you again mistranslated the ayah. It is:

3:33 Behold, Allah raised Adam, and Noah, and the House of Abraham, and the House of `Imran above all mankind,
3:34 in one line of descent. And Allah is All-hearing, All-knowing.

Again as they Ayah says they were just in one line of decent from Adam. Lit., "offspring of one another" - an allusion not merely to the physical descent of those prophets but also to the fact that all of them were spiritually linked with one another and believed in one and the same fundamental truth (Tabari). Thus, the above passage is a logical sequence to verses 31-32, which make God's approval contingent upon obedience to His chosen message-bearers. The names which appear in this sentence circumscribe, by implication, all the prophets mentioned in the Qur'an inasmuch as most of them were descendants of two or more of these patriarchs.

Adam was created from dust. The decendants of Adam were created from reproductie fluid and from the desecedants there were pairs male and female. “Then” in this and the following clause refers, not to stages of time, but to stages in the argument. It is almost equivalent to “further”, “also”, and “in addition”.

//That means that Adam was created through sexual reproduction.//

L-O-L. Read the above. Adam was created from dust like stated in the Quran but his offspring were created by sexual reproduction. That the sons of Adam started to multiply and they were created through water which is the sperm and fluids which are emitted by men and women, as is well known. 

The likeness of 'Isa in Allah's sight is the same as Adam. He created him from earth and then He said to him, "Be!" and he was. (Qur'an, 3:59)

The above verse states that Allah created Prophets Adam and 'Isa, peace be upon them, in the same way. As we stressed earlier, Prophet Adam was created with no parents, from the earth, at Allah's command "Be!" Prophet Jesus also was created without father, by Allah's Will expressed through the command "Be!"

First, Adam was a successor to the Jinns who were living on the earth very long time before Adam. I can show you a Hadith reference that is authentic then i would have a "argument" but i have not the time to go into hadith literature and find it right now.

Secondly, we know is that Adam was a successor to the earth. Like you told me to prove he was a successor to Jinns, (which i have done), You have to prove to me it means he was a successor of Primate apes, or some kind of "animal ancestors".

Thirdly, He was successor meaning that he is its "ruler", God has made us inhabitants of it till Judgment day. Each one of us is a successor. God gave Adam the right to rule the earth by the Sharia. And it could mean that the humans will be a successive authority. Meaning many generations of humans one after another that will have authority on earth.

Fourthly,  a more accurate explanation. The word in discussion is خَلِيفَةً. or "Khalifatan" meaning khalifa = Vicegerent. Lets take a more in depth look. Oxford Islamic Studies article says the meaning of Khalifa is:

(1) Deputy or steward; sometimes translated as vicegerent. According to the teachings of Islam, each individual is a khalifah to God. Muslims in particular must strive to adhere to and advance God's will by establishing a society that reflects human dignity and justice. Accordingly, human beings have been given the necessary intelligence, strength, and divine guidance to benefit humanity. Adam was the first appointed khalifah. King David is also identified by the Quran as a khalifah since he modeled his actions on God's commands and moral laws.

(2) Successor; the dynastic rulers of the Muslim empire.

(3) Leader of a Sufi order.

In Matthew S. Gordon's The Rise of Islam, caliph is said to translate to "deputy (or representative) of God." It is used in the Quran to establish Adam's role as representative of God on earth. Khalifa is also used to describe the belief that man's role, in his real nature, is as khalifa or viceroy to Allah. The word is also most commonly used for the Islamic leader of the Ummah; starting with Abu Bakr and his line of successors.

As shown above this clearly refutes you. Again and again.

(7)

Allah caused you to grow from the earth, and then will return you to it and bring you out again. (Qur'an, 71:17-18)

Evolutionist Muslims view this verse as a vital foundation upon which they can base their views. The expression "Allah caused you to grow from the earth" is presented as evidence for inorganic evolution. As is clearly indicated in the verse's interpretation, however, it expresses the creation of the first human being from earth. Hamdi Yazir of Elmali offers the same interpretation:

There are two aspects to the verse. The first is that saying He created you from earth means that He created your father from earth, and began the process of creating your race by creating him from earth. The other is that he created all of you from earth, because Allah creates us from nourishment, from plants, from earth.

oh people! Consider this. Allah made you like a plant from earth. In other words, "He has created Adam, your forefather, from earth, or your essential substance (zygote) came into existence from plants and several food stuffs growing in the earth. People then grow and live. (Then) O people, He will return you to it. In other words: When you die, you will return to the earth and become part of the soil. (And) Then He will take you out of the graves and drive you all to the Judgment Day.

أَنبَات means to grow as about the man, his initial creation is from the earth and secondly whatever man eats, with the help of that food he raise up and get nurtured they are entirely from the earth directly like vegetation, fruits and food grains or indirectly like cattle’s meat. Thirdly there is a lot of resemblance between the man and the vegetation as most of the laws and regulations for the reproduction, development and growth of the vegetation are ruling over the man also. These expressions in the description of man are extremely meaningful, it indicates that the purpose of the guidance of the Almighty is not only like the teacher and the student but He is like the gardener who cultivates the seed in the suitable ambiance so the same way he do with the hidden abilities of man to get his talents exposed.

Imam al-Tabari's commentary states that: "Allah created you from dust of the earth. He made you from nothing.... He will later return you to your original states, to the earth. You will return to how you were before you were created. He can bring you back from the earth alive when He chooses." (Imam at-Tabari, Tabari Commentary, vol. 6, p. 2632)

(8)

Lastly let me give you the real process of creation. Allah created Adam with his two hands. The Malik Al Mawt brought Allah Earth from around the world. Adam was created: from the earth – i.e. from its dust – which was then mixed with water to form mud, which then became black, stinking mud. And this dust was created from the earth which is partly sand and when it is mixed it becomes sounding clay like the clay of pottery. Hence when Allaah describes the creation of Adam in the Qur’aan, in each case He describes one of the stages through which his creation passed and through which the mud was formed. Then Allah breathed into Adam a soul (Life).

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

When the perfection, complete power, all-encompassing knowledge, ever-executed will and utmost wisdom of the Lord decreed that His creation should be of materials of different kinds, and that they should vary in their forms and attributes and natures, His wisdom decreed that He should take a handful of dust from the earth, then mix it with water. So it became like black stinking mud. Then the wind was sent upon it and it dried out, until it became clay like pottery. Then it was given shape and limbs and faculties, and each part of it was given a shape suited to its purpose. Then he mentioned how people are created by means of intercourse and the emission of semen.(Al-Tabaayun fi Aqsaam al-Qur’aan, p. 204)

Qur'an Al-A'raf 7:189:

It is He Who has created you from a single person (Adam), and (then) He has created from him his wife [Hawwa (Eve)], in order that he might enjoy the pleasure of living with her. ...

also Allah states clearly: “O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 1] Allah also says: “O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honorable of you with Allah is the one who is the most God-fearing.” [Sûrah al-Hujûrât:13]

So tell me Did Hawwa evolutionize from Adam? LOL Thats what it looks like your saying. This Also shows Adam is the Father of All humans.

Hadith - Abu Dawood. Imam Ahmad has narrated from Abu Musa that the Prophet peace and blessings of Allah be upon him said:

"Allah has created Adam from a handful (soil) which He had gathered from all over the earth. That is how the children of Adam came according to the (colour and nature of the) earth. There are white among them, as well as red and black, and cross colours. There are those among them who are of bad nature and good nature, soft as well as harsh and in between".

Sheikh Al-Albani (rahimahullah) declares the hadeeth authentic in Saheeh Al-Jaami' As-Sagheer wa-Ziyadatuhu (No. 1759) as well as in Silsalatul-Ahaadeeth-as-Saheehah (No. 1630).

Also another Ayah refutes evolution:

“(Allah) said: ‘O Iblis! What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with both my hands? Are you haughty? Or art you one of the exalted?’ ” [Sûrah Sâd: 75]

We understand from this verse the extreme care and concern that Allah shows for this particular creation of His. Allah honors Adam – and in turn all of humanity – in this way. The fact that Allah singles out Adam saying that He created this creature with His own two hands shows how much Allah has honored Adam.

Quran 17:70: NOW, INDEED, We have conferred dignity on the children of Adam, and borne them over land and sea, and provided for them sustenance out of the good things of life, and favoured them far above most of Our creation.

 It was authentically reported that ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Umar said: “Allaah created four things with His Hand;

1) The Throne

2) The Pen

3) Aadam and

4) The paradise of ‘Adn.

He then said to the rest of the creation ‘Kun’ [Be] and it was.”

Adh Dhahabi stated in ‘Al ‘Uluw’: ‘It’s chain is good.’

Al Albaani stated in ‘Mukhtasar al ‘Uluw’ P.105: ‘The chain is authentic according to the conditions of Muslim.’

Abi Musa al Sha'arai narrated that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Allah created Adam from a handful of dust taken from different lands, so the children of Adam have been created according to the composition of the land. Therefore from mankind we have white, red, black and yellow ones; we have good and evil, ease and sorrow, and what comes in between them." (Sahih al Bukhari)

Allah created Adam AS in his finished form and his height was sixty cubits (about 41 meters or 126 feet)…. Therefore, all who enter Paradise will be of the form of Adam, and the people have not stopped decreasing in stature up to the present. (Bukhari)

When Allah had fashioned Adam in Paradise, He left him as he willed to leave him. Then Iblees went around him to see what he was. And when he found him hollow, he recognised he has been created with an uncontrolled disposition. (Muslim)

Ibn Kathir:

So Allah shaped Adam into a human being, but he remaineda figure of clay for 40 years. The angels went past him. They were seized with fear by what they saw, and Iblis felt fear most. He used to pass by the figure of Adam, buffeting it, which would make a sound like pottery. Allah told us: "He created man (Adam) from sounding clay like the clay of pottery." [Chapter 55:Quran].

Abu Hurairah narrated that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said: "Allah created Adam from dust after He mixed the clay and left him for some time until it became sticky mud, after which Allah shaped him. After that Allah left him till it became like potter's clay. Iblis used to go past him saying 'You have been created for a great purpose.' After that Allah breathed His spirit into him. The first thing into which the spirit passed was his eye and then his nose. He sneezed. Allah said: "May your Lord have mercy upon you, O Adam! Go to those angels and see what they would say.' So Adam went and greeted them. they replied saying: "Peace be upon you and the mercy and blessings of Allah." Allah said: "O Adam! This is your greeting and that of your offspring." [Sahih al Bukhari]

Abu Hurairah narrated that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said: "O Muslims! I advise you to be gentle with women, for they are created from a rib, and the most crooked portion of the rib is its upper part. If you try to straighten it, it will break and if you leave it, it will remain crooked, so I urge you to take care of the women." [Sahih Bukhari]

Then Allah said to the angels: "Truly, I am going to create man from clay. So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him." (Chapter 38:71-72 Quran).

And when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration.” So the angels prostrated – all of them entirely, Except Iblees, he refused to be with those who prostrated. (Qur’an 15:29-31)

Now. Lets inspect the above ayah in points:

1) Allah created man from clay
2) Then fashioned and Proportioned
3) Then Breathed soul into him

This ayah proves that Adam was created directly by Allah and not process of evolution. Because according to evolution humans came from primates apes..animals.etc. Basically they are ALIVE and need to be ALIVE to evolve. But Adam was only ALIVE and had a soul only after he was fashioned and proportioned by Allah. Meaning Adam was DEAD AND LIFE-LESS when he was being created and in the process of fashioning or as Mclinkin says in the process of evolution. THEREFORE ADAM COULD NOT OFF EVOLVED FROM SOMETHING BEFORE HIM WHEN HE WAS NOT ALIVE. Because how can a dead ape evolve into a man. YOU UNDERSTANDING ME GUYS.

ALLAHU AKBAR, ALLAHU AKBAR, ALLAHU AKBAR WAL 3IZATU LILLAH

ALLAHU A'LAM

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2014, 03:03:42 PM »
So, I'm gonna respond to you point by point. You numbered them so I will too. You should know that I do not trust hadiths and therefore do not cite them nor respond to them. This could be another debate, but the question is does the Quran support evolutionary creation, not hadiths.

(1) You appealed to authority on this verse and it is not surprising that authorities in Islam do not support the evolutionary interpretation of Quran 71:13-14: They base their understanding on hadiths. All we need to do is who the Arabic translation of that word. Allah did not give you the Quran so that you can ask these so called "scholars" to interpret it for you. Allah wants YOU to ponder on the Quran, not have someone else ponder for you.  Will they not then ponder the Qur'an or are there locks upon their hearts?" [Quran 47:24]

The word for stages (atwaran) means successive stages. That means the creation of humans beings is in stages. That is all that verse shows.

Did Allah mention in other verses the stages he created us in? Yes embryological and evolutionary (i have mentioned this in my earlier posts).

You said ""interpreting Qur'anic verses in the light of other Qur'anic verses," because in other verses Allah explains the stages of creation as being those inside the mother's womb.". That is exactly what I did. Quran 32:7-9 explains those stages. One stage involved the beginning of formation of humans, the next is sexual reproduction and the next is the stage in further proportioning.  Not only that, you failed to mention where else Allah explains the stages of creation besides the embryological.

Further, if all humans were created in stages, then so was Adam....

(2) The next thing you brought up while making fun of it, is the verse on Allah increasing the wings on Angels (Quran 35:1).

All you have to do is ask yourself, why is Allah talking about Angels and to what purpose is Allah telling you that his creation involves adding and increasing complexity of his creatures? What point does Allah want you to understand? The point is that Allah adds on to creation.

You also stated that it is not generally all his creation, but it is talking about Angels. WHY is Allah talking about Angels if the subject of that chapter is humans?

What is the verse telling you about the nature of Allah's creation? It is telling you that Allah creates by originating and ADDING on to creation. He made Angels with one wing and he increased and improved his creation into having 4.

If you can't ask yourself these questions and if you can see why Allah wrote this verse (What is the purpose), then you would get the proper translation.

Allah specifically told us in the Quran that intelligent people will get the right interpretation of the Quran. So I hope you can read the Quran intelligently and think of the meaning and the concept that Allah wants you to grasp.

Why does Allah mention Angels in a chapter that's subject is obviously humans?...Because Allah creates the same way. By originating creation and by adding on to creation.

(3) The next thing you discussed was Quran 7:69

I've noticed that you committed to appeal to ridicule fallacy. Just because something sounds ridiculous, does not mean it its wrong. You need to understand that.

Ask yourself, Why did Allah say that he has improved us in creation/stature after the people of Noah? HOW did Allah improve us in creation/stature? By killing of the humans that weren't fit enough to believe and be obedient to Allah...I.e. Natural selection.

What is Allah teaching you in this verse? Why did he say that he has improved us in creation and why did he imply that humans have gone through an evolutionary event at this time?? You need to dig deeper into this and not get a shallow and superficial understanding...

(4) Its funny here. You refuted yourself and you ended up proving my point.

My point was there was a long period of time in which Adam was non-existent and there was along period of time in which humans got created.

I will quote you:

"or it could be the period of time when Allah shaped Adam"-->Agreed.

It could be the time when man was not created-->Agreed.

Thanks for proving my point.

Allah created Adam in a long period of time and before Adam's creation a long period of time occurred...Wow, what a strong hint at the long process in which Allah created humans.

(5) This is where you really discredit yourself.

Quran 96:1-2 is where Allah has explicitly told us that he created MANKIND (ALL OF MANKIND) from Alaq. This does not exclude anyone as Allah is never short of words

Then you went to Quran 7:11-12 and said see, Adam wasn't created from Alaq, he was created from Clay. This is worse then saying that the Quran contradicts itself by saying that humans are created from Water and then the Quran says humans are created from Clay, and then the Quran says humans are created from Dust. IT is just as bad as the infidel argument. We were ALL created from Water AND dust AND semen AND clay AND alaq!

We created man from an extract of clay. (Qur'an, 23:12 and 15:26)
(Quran 96:1-2) ... who created, Created man from a clinging substance (Alaq or embryo)

^EVERYONE was created from clay and EVERYONE was created from Alaq. BOTH are true.

Adam was formed in an embryo and he had a father....

(6) I agree on you with Quran 3:33-34. It was speaking about being descenants of one another. Apologies for bringing that up.

What I do disagree on is your view of Quran 35:11

Quran 35:11 And Allah created you from dust, then from a sperm-drop; then He made you in pairs

You stated that this verse refers to creation Adam from dust and his offspring  is the sperm-drop and the mates. To show why this translation is definitively wrong, let us look at this part "Then he made you in pairs". That means that humans FIRST became pairs after creation of us from Dust and then a sperm drop. Adam and Hawwa were a pair, weren't they? Yes. They were a pair. So the logical conclusion is that he created us from dust and then from a sperm drop BEFORE he created Adam and hawwa (a pair). Read the verse again. To restate: Adam and Hawwa are a pair. This verse says that humans were made in pairs after Allah created the sperm-drop. The logical and necessary conclusion is that Adam and Hawwa were created from a sperm-drop because they are a pair.

You stated that Thumma (the word for "then") in this verse does not meant to denote time? Based on what do you make such an assumption? Thumma means then and it is mostly used in the Quran to denote a time after.

I also disagree on your view of who Adam succeeded in the Earth. The Quran did not mention anything on this, but the Quran tells us that Adam succeeded something. The Quran did NOT say Jinn. The Quran left that for US to discover. Evolutionary science tells us who that something Adam succeeded is. It happened to be ape-like humans...We DID succeed something on the Earth. Then you also held the argument that successor doesn't have to mean physically succeeding, and that it could mean being a ruler over them. And I would agree here, but I would say the word "khalifatan" meaning successors refers to BOTH succeeding after something on the Earth and ruling over them. We did succeed something on the Earth and we ARE the rulers of the Earth.

And oh by the way, you proved my point once again:

You quoted the verse that said Jesus' creation is the likeliness of Adam (Quran 3:59). Guess what? Jesus was formed in an embryo and my whole thesis here is that SO WAS ADAM. Adam was formed in an embryo himself. You proved my point once again. So why are you so reluctant to accept the scientific fact of evolution?

You are getting refuted, again and again. And most of the time, you are refuting yourself.

(7) You posted a verse that I didn't even mention, but I would still like to defend the view and the what the verse is saying.

Allah caused you to grow from the earth, and then will return you to it and bring you out again. (Qur'an, 71:17-18)

The manipulation of this verse that you present is wrong.

Allah has caused us to grow from the Earth and then he will RETURN us to the Earth. That means we will die exactly where we grew from the earth. This verse DOES present evidence of inorganic evolution! We formed from the Earth and we will return to the Earth. It does NOT mean just nourishment from plants and other earth things like you mention, it means literally we have grown from the Earth. Why can this be the only interpretation? Because we will return to the Earth.

Even in your own post you agreed with me again and refuted yourself. Why do you do this, it's like your arguments has no structure.

You said: " When you die, you will return to the earth and become part of the soil"-->Agreed. That means that this verse is saying we grew from the soil. Another Quranic verse informs us that we grew from the Earth progressively (implying the idea of creation in stages):

(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.

This is extremely suggestive of the evolutionary fact. Another valid translation of that verse is that Allah has caused us to grow from the earth like plants. The verse would read: 71.17. And Allah has caused you to grow out of the earth like plants  What does that mean? That means that Allah has planted us in the Earth and we grew FROM the earth. Just like planting a seed. You put the seed, provide it with everything it needs and nourishment, leave it alone and it will morph/evolve into a plant. Compare that to the evolutionary finding. The first cell formed out of the contents of the Earth and it grew and evolved overtime into a human.   

So to stress this point: The Quran states that a plant grows out of the Earth in successive stages, just like humans grew out of the Earth in successive stages. This again is extremely suggestive of the evolutionary fact and is contrary to your anti-evolution heresy.

---------------------------

It tells us that humans grew from the Earth in successive stages progressively just as Quran 71:14 states (Allah created humans in diverse stages)! I would also like to remind you that the two verses (Growing out of the earth progressively/like plants and Allah created humans in diverse stages) are in the same chapters and only a few verses apart. Clearly Allah wants us to grasp this concept that we not only did we grow in stages embryonically but  grew from the earth in diverse stages.--That Adam himself grew from the Earth in diverse stages.

-----------------------

8 Your "real" process of creation has no Quranic validity. The Quran did not mention this nonsense.

Quoting "scholars" and saying "look they agree with me", is ridiculous. Irrespective of the general consensus, the truth is the truth. In the 1950's scientists did not believe in Quantum Mechanical Findings (anti-realism) and they did not believe in the big bang despite the overwheming evidence. People at that time, just like you, Quoted those scientists and saying "look they agree with me, therefore you are wrong". This mechanism of argument defense is not how we debate.

The Quran did not command us to have others ponder on the Quran for us. The Quran commanded us to ponder it ourselves and not to commit shirk and follow religious mullahs.

Next, you quoted Quran 7:189 and then stated that you believe that Adam is the father of all humans. YES, he IS the father of all humans, but he also had a parent. Allah has chosen Adam for all humans to descend from.

IF you are stating that the concept of Adam (a singular human being) is not in support of evolution, then you are wrong. Genetic study has been able to trace our ancestry back to ONE singular individual. They call it the Mitochondrial eve and the Y-Chromosome Adam. These are NOT the Adam and Eve. This is just an example of how we can trace our ancestry back to singular people. If the mitochondrial eve and the Y-Chromosome Adam had a singular common ancestor (which they must logically have), THEN the parents of that ancestor would be THE Quranic Adam and Eve. The pair in which we have ALL descended from.

Then you said something like did "Hawwa evolutionize from Adam?" and you quote Quran 4:1. I can easily present 5 valid translations:

1.) It is referring to the Soul. He created Adam's soul and took it and made Eve's
2.) It is not referring to Adam and Eve at all, and it is referring to the first cell that has formed and its pair that divided from it and eventually all humans came from this.
3.) It is referring to Adam and Eve and Eve literally came out of Adam.
4.) Eve was one of Adam's offspring that he has mated with

I'm guessing you support translation #3?  I do too. But what does Allah mean that he created Eve from Adam?

You have yourself proved that Adam was created in an embryo (just like Jesus) and Allah intervened in the Embryo (just like Jesus). So Adam and eve could literally been at one point an embryo that divided. How Allah took eve out of Adam.

Translation #1 is not very far off either. Translation #2 is possible, but I hesitate to defend it because nowhere in the Quran does it state anything about the first cell dividing. So I don't support translation 2. 

Translation 4 is supportive of incest, but we should know that Allah makes rules and abrogates his rules. Incest back then did occur, we have to accept it. Even on your view that Adam and Eve had kids and the kids mated with each other presents Allah allowing Incest. Anyway, Eve could have simply been an offspring of Adam (could be Adams daughter, nephew, or nephew's kid). I don't see any issue with this translation. Eve came out of Adam and with THIS pair, all humans became descendants of them.
 
^So this refutes your idea that Quran 4:1 is against the idea of evolution.

Next you state, and I'm quoting to literally put quotes on your answer:

Quote
Then Allah said to the angels: "Truly, I am going to create man from clay. So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him." (Chapter 38:71-72 Quran).

And when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration.” So the angels prostrated – all of them entirely, Except Iblees, he refused to be with those who prostrated. (Qur’an 15:29-31)

Now. Lets inspect the above ayah in points:

1) Allah created man from clay
2) Then fashioned and Proportioned
3) Then Breathed soul into him

This ayah proves that Adam was created directly by Allah and not process of evolution. Because according to evolution humans came from primates apes..animals.etc. Basically they are ALIVE and need to be ALIVE to evolve. But Adam was only ALIVE and had a soul only after he was fashioned and proportioned by Allah. Meaning Adam was DEAD AND LIFE-LESS when he was being created and in the process of fashioning or as Mclinkin says in the process of evolution. THEREFORE ADAM COULD NOT OFF EVOLVED FROM SOMETHING BEFORE HIM WHEN HE WAS NOT ALIVE. Because how can a dead ape evolve into a man. YOU UNDERSTANDING ME GUYS.

Issue with your understanding. Firstly, you assume that a soul makes you alive and that without a soul you are not alive and you assume that a soul is also given to Animals. Where is the Quranic basis of this assumption? There are none.  Bacteria are alive and I don't think they have souls. So souls? What does the Quran mean by soul? Well, the Quran seems to show that the input of a soul is correlated with higher intelligence (the ones that humans possess)! The Quran states that Allah has given us a soul and given us higher intelligence. So a soul is a feature required for the intelligence that a human possess and not for being alive.

So NO, these Ayas do not prove that Adam was created directly by Allah and not through a process of evolution. Adam was given a soul because he was picked over the other beings by Allah. A soul is not necessary for you to be alive. A soul is something Allah decides to give and Allah gave it to us .The soul possibly granted us certain faculties such as intellect, volition, emotion, knowledge of right and wrong, a sense of justice, mercy etc. Obviously Animals do not have the same intellect we do.

So what does this mean? It does not mean that the creation of Allah in stages did not involve life. This thus refutes your point.

In order to gain any argumentative support, you MUST show where the Quran said animals and other living things are given souls. And, I know there is no such Quranic verse. Your argument therefore falls on itself. This whole rant is ridiculous and it's major premise/assumption is false. It is nothing more than idle talk.

You have to accept the Quranic consistency in stating that Humans were created progressively in stages. This is in support of the idea of evolution. We started off as nothing more than clay (Allah originates creation), we evolved and got proportioned into higher beings (Allah adds complexity on to his creation) and Allah has created us good (Allah perfects/improves his creation).

Conclusion:
1.) Allah said that he created humans in stages and he specified them as being both evolutionary and embryological
2.) Allah explains to us that he originates his creations and he increases/Adds on to them
3.) Allah tells us that humans have experienced a significant evolutionary event at Noah's time and it was driven through Natural selection (makes you think, huh?)
4.)Adam was created in a long period of time involving a process
5.) Adam was created in an embryo thereby implying he at least had a mother
6.) Adam was chosen over something and he succeeded them!
7.)Allah has caused us to grow from the Earth progressively and in stages
8.) Miscellaneous things (etc.)

And here is yet another verse in which Allah shows us the process in which humans were created:

(Quran 82:7) O mankind, what has deceived you concerning your Lord, the Generous, Who created you, then proportioned you, and then balanced you?

This verse may refer to three main stages of the creation of human beings. The first was creation of a living cell (The Arabic verb khlaqa, created). The second was the change from unicellular prokaryote organism to the multi-cellular eukaryote animal organism (The Arabic verb sawwa, fashioned you). The third was the human departure from the animal stage (The Arabic verb 'adala, made you walk in an upright way). Allah has improved his creation. Allah has added on to his creation, just like Allah mentioned when he said he added wings to angels. Allah originates creation, then Evolves it (increases it, improves it, perfects it).
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 10:11:02 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline Md.Mobashir Mallick

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2014, 07:58:06 AM »
Actually its a 100% misconception about the theory evolution where many of us misunderstand the theory when we say that man evolved from apes , when you superficially read the theory you most probably misunderstand it , actually the theory states that man & apes had the common ancestor from which they evolved , but it doesn't say that man evolved from apes or vice versa

Offline Md.Mobashir Mallick

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2014, 08:11:53 AM »
@ Mclinkin 94 if you trust & have 100% faith in the Quran then you have to believe in the SAHIH HADITHS because although Allah sent us the Quran but along with it he also sent its most accurate interpreter I.e Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) many things are wriiten in the Quran but the ways to do them ain't mentioned in the Quran for ex. - reading Salaat 5 times a day is mentioned in the Quran but how to do it , we know from the Hadiths that's why if you believe in the Quran you gotta believe in the Sahih HADITHS I.e SAHIH BUKHARI & SAHIH MUSLIM WHICH ARE CONSIDERED TO BE THE MOST ACCURATE HADITHS & EVEN I DON'T COMPLETELY TRUST THE SCHOLARS BUT SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO CAUSE ALLAH WON'T COME ON THE EARTH HIMSELF TO CLEAR YOUR doubts in the Quran & that's why he sent scholars on earth to explain it to you in a better manner

Offline ali achinxo

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2014, 08:16:55 AM »
Md Mobisher:

Asalamualaykum brother.  I have done some research about evolution, and with all the information i have gained evolution seems to be false. Although i do agree that there are bits and pieces of the theory that are true, like adaption and the gene pool increasing. So anyway, what do you say was the ancestor of humans. Am interested in your reply. :)

Offline Md.Mobashir Mallick

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2014, 08:46:09 AM »
My. Dear brother I too know that its not 100% correct but some facts like survival of the fittest & adaptation according to the environment are correct , I myself can prove that this theory is wrong by giving you short but effective points
1)the diagrams given by ernst haeckel of the embryos of different organisms were actually proved to be false when viewed through the microscope
2) the gase used by Urey & Miller in their expt to produce amino acids was a failure cause they produced some basic forms but it was impossible to make the complex compunds & secondly the gase used by them weren't correct acc. To the geologists the earlier atmosphere comprised of volcanic gases & when they were added in the expt the expt failed
3)the peppered moths photographs were fake , that white coloured moths didn't survived & black moths survived due to industrialization , actually the black moths don't even live in the tree barks , the dead moths were pinned on the tree & photographed
4) the fossils of rama pithecus , shiva pithecus etc were fakes , they were actually found to be man made
5)darwins finches who had grown their beaks for a few centimeters during the drought in galapagos island returned back to normal after the drought
Therefore all the basis on which this theory is based itself is wrong so how can the theory be right & moeover its till now called a theory & not a fact so how can a person believe upto 100% in a theory

Offline Md.Mobashir Mallick

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2014, 08:55:43 AM »
& my belief is that Allah is much more knowledgeable than any of the worldly scientists so I believe that Allah & his Prophet knows the best about the ancestors of humans & how he brought Adam alayhisalaaam in this world , but still Allah doesn't mention in what form was Adam (p.bu.h) was created in , coz we know hauwa alayhisalaam was produced from his spine or ribs I guess , & neither does the Quran mention anywhere that in which state he was brought into the world so I am not very certain on this topic , only thing which I can say now is that Allah knows the best

Offline Md.Mobashir Mallick

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2014, 10:39:01 AM »
& one thing I forgot to mention that till date no animal has been found to change its basic characteristics ( I.e change from one species to another) neither has any kind of mutation proved to be useful although some scientists say that africans have developed sickel cell anaemia in order to protect themselves from malaria but its like cutting your legs in order to prevent yourself from car accidents

Offline ali achinxo

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2014, 11:41:24 AM »
Salam

I want to let everyone know that i will not be responding to mclinkins post. I had been writing a reply to mclinkins response since yesterday, i stayed about 4-5 hours writting up in the blog box. I completed up to point 3 and with added more bulletpoints, stayed up till 4am until i fell asleep. so this morning i left firefox as it is and left to work, when i came back i planned to complete it. But my damn damn damn mozilla had a error and closed down. When i reoppened mozilla, the blog page came up but EVERYSINGLE THING that i wrote in the text box has gone. It just bloody went away. Damn this compiuterrr. I am so freaking angryy i cant tell you how much. Allahu Rabiiiii

All the work that i done is gone away. I have not the patience of researching everything from scratch again, and sadly the thoughts i gave in it are no longer in my head as i wrote it down. so i will stop my replies to this topic. everybody that reads this, please make your own research and see the truth for yourselves. If any reader wants to ask me a question about a point or a part of mclinkins reply to my post, please message me or something and inshallah i will answer. Well thats that

salam alaykum

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2014, 10:31:12 PM »
Salam

I want to let everyone know that i will not be responding to mclinkins post. I had been writing a reply to mclinkins response since yesterday, i stayed about 4-5 hours writting up in the blog box. I completed up to point 3 and with added more bulletpoints, stayed up till 4am until i fell asleep. so this morning i left firefox as it is and left to work, when i came back i planned to complete it. But my damn damn damn mozilla had a error and closed down. When i reoppened mozilla, the blog page came up but EVERYSINGLE THING that i wrote in the text box has gone. It just bloody went away. Damn this compiuterrr. I am so freaking angryy i cant tell you how much. Allahu Rabiiiii

All the work that i done is gone away. I have not the patience of researching everything from scratch again, and sadly the thoughts i gave in it are no longer in my head as i wrote it down. so i will stop my replies to this topic. everybody that reads this, please make your own research and see the truth for yourselves. If any reader wants to ask me a question about a point or a part of mclinkins reply to my post, please message me or something and inshallah i will answer. Well thats that

salam alaykum

Sorry to hear that.

You could sum up the response if you'd like. This is a really important topic in Islam and I would really like to discuss. I sincerely believe 100% that Allah has reminded us in the Quran that humans were created in stages and grew from the earth literally in stages like plants. Now, the Quran did NOT specify the details on how humans evolved or exactly all the stages we have been through. There are many reasons for this and the primary one is that the Quran is NOT a science book. The Quran only refers to the creation of humans in stages to give us a message that we should be grateful to our lord.

Let me ask you this: If Allah did not want to state that humans were created out of the earth in diverse stages would he say:

1.) That we were created in diverse stages and then a few verses later he says that we grew out of the earth progressively and gradually.
2.) That Allah created us THEN proportioned us
3.) That Allah created us THEN perfected us
4.) That Allah created us in a long process


^Does that sound like Allah doesn't want us to believe that humans were created out of the earth in stages in a long process
^All of these suggest that humans were created in diverse stages out of the earth and there are other many verses that show that Adam formed in an embryo himself!

Let me just state on thing. You were talking about doing research...What research? Scientific? or were you again looking for hadiths? Do us all a favor and spare me the hadith nonsense. I don't trust man's word, I trust only Allah's word. There is absolutely NO reason to believe in hadiths. I have discussed this before and this could be another debate. But the question we are asking here is: Does the QURAN alone support evolution. We are not asking do hadiths support evolution. The only research you need to do is only Quranic research. This is not a scientific debate, although, if you want it to be let me know.

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2014, 10:51:55 PM »
Quote
ctually its a 100% misconception about the theory evolution where many of us misunderstand the theory when we say that man evolved from apes , when you superficially read the theory you most probably misunderstand it , actually the theory states that man & apes had the common ancestor from which they evolved , but it doesn't say that man evolved from apes or vice versa

Yeah, many anti-evolutionists simply aren't informed. TO be more accurate just say that humans developed from ape-like humans or share a common ancestor with them

Quote
@ Mclinkin 94 if you trust & have 100% faith in the Quran then you have to believe in the SAHIH HADITHS because although Allah sent us the Quran but along with it he also sent its most accurate interpreter I.e Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) many things are wriiten in the Quran but the ways to do them ain't mentioned in the Quran for ex. - reading Salaat 5 times a day is mentioned in the Quran but how to do it , we know from the Hadiths that's why if you believe in the Quran you gotta believe in the Sahih HADITHS I.e SAHIH BUKHARI & SAHIH MUSLIM WHICH ARE CONSIDERED TO BE THE MOST ACCURATE HADITHS & EVEN I DON'T COMPLETELY TRUST THE SCHOLARS BUT SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO CAUSE ALLAH WON'T COME ON THE EARTH HIMSELF TO CLEAR YOUR doubts in the Quran & that's why he sent scholars on earth to explain it to you in a better manner

Belief in any external outside source beyond the Quran is unjustified. Period. The Quran did not state that there is going to be a separate book besides it that contains laws, The Quran stated quite the contrary.

”Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?” The Word of your Lord is complete in truth and in justice” 6:115

Does that sound like Allah wanted you to use an external source given that the Quran is fully detailed and complete. HOw about these verses:

”This is not fabricated ‘hadith’; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a guidance and mercy for those who believe” 12:111
”We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance and mercy and good news for the submitters” 16:89


In spite of the very clear words: “fully detailed”, “details of everything” and “explanations for everything” the corrupt interpreters somehow still claim that the Quran does not include all the details! Sadly, they claim that the Quran has only mentioned the major outlines of the religion while as the details of everyday rituals are only to be found in the Hadith and Sunna!

These false claims only go to expose these people’s ignorance of the Quran, and also their disbelief in God's words.

Quote
Asalamualaykum brother.  I have done some research about evolution, and with all the information i have gained evolution seems to be false. Although i do agree that there are bits and pieces of the theory that are true, like adaption and the gene pool increasing. So anyway, what do you say was the ancestor of humans.

I say get informed!  ;) And it is no longer a theory. It has been established. So start there  :)

The Quran obviously did not state the ancestor of humans being ape-like humans. Imagine it did? Imagine what people of the 7th century would have thought if the prophet told them that humans came from ape-like humans. They would have though the prophet was insane! Heck people today 1400 years after have a hard time grasping evolution, imagine how it would have been back then. Secondly, if the Quran gave out all scientific facts and they were discovered, then EVERYONE becomes a Muslim. Allah does not want that as life is a test! The professor does not give the answers to the exam just as Allah doesn't. Allah gives you signs!

IN the Quran we are informed that Adam was formed in an embryo just like Jesus and all other humans were formed in an embryo. That implies that humans had an ancestor. Secondly, the Quran informs us that Adam was formed as a product of sexual reproduction. Another hint that we have ancestors. Thirdly, the Quran says that humans are successors of the Earth but the Quran didn't specify who we succeeded.

Quote
My. Dear brother I too know that its not 100% correct but some facts like survival of the fittest & adaptation according to the environment are correct , I myself can prove that this theory is wrong by giving you short but effective points
1)the diagrams given by ernst haeckel of the embryos of different organisms were actually proved to be false when viewed through the microscope
2) the gase used by Urey & Miller in their expt to produce amino acids was a failure cause they produced some basic forms but it was impossible to make the complex compunds & secondly the gase used by them weren't correct acc. To the geologists the earlier atmosphere comprised of volcanic gases & when they were added in the expt the expt failed
3)the peppered moths photographs were fake , that white coloured moths didn't survived & black moths survived due to industrialization , actually the black moths don't even live in the tree barks , the dead moths were pinned on the tree & photographed
4) the fossils of rama pithecus , shiva pithecus etc were fakes , they were actually found to be man made
5)darwins finches who had grown their beaks for a few centimeters during the drought in galapagos island returned back to normal after the drought
Therefore all the basis on which this theory is based itself is wrong so how can the theory be right & moeover its till now called a theory & not a fact so how can a person believe upto 100% in a theory


This is now turning into a historical debate...

1.) I'm not sure where you got that information, but I am not a historian and I haven't examined history. I don't care about the history I care about the science. I can assure you that the embryo pictures are accurate. I am a microbiologist and I have had my fair share of animal development classes. IN them, I would get to see these LIVE.  They are very similar and the best part is, the Quran affirms this.



Support in the Quran of embryological drawings:

Quran 23:14 Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah , the best of creators.

So these verses are referring to embryology of humans. The one I wanted your attention into was " We developed him into another creation". That means that as we were developing in the embryo, we were a different creation. We were more animal like UNTIL differentiation occurs and Allah develops us into another creation. That means that before we developed into another creation in the embryo, we were like a previous creation.

2.) LIke I said, history is not my specialty. What you are referring to here is chemical evolution not biological evolution (although they are connected)

3.) This is an ecological demonstration of how natural selection operates. Again, I don't know where you get this information. Secondly, I have found a source that states that these conspiracy theories are misrepresented and false. They described these allegations as ""littered with errors, misrepresentations, misinterpretations and falsehoods". source: ^ Jump up to: a b Michael Majerus (2004). "The Peppered moth: decline of a Darwinian disciple" (.doc). Archived from the original on 2007-09-26. Retrieved 2007-09-10.

4.) Again, I'm no expert on this or anthropology, but if there were any fake fossils, we have many real ones...

5.) It's not called a theory. It was called a theory many ages ago, with the development of molecular biology and further DNA testing, it is clear. You have to face the facts. Evolution is a fact. Secondly, Present your sources please as I feel like you are just getting them from creation websites. Do you know the lies they spread? It's a shame and it is nothing more than an insult to Allah. Darwin's was not right all the time, he did makes some mistakes and we have corrected the theory of evolution. Darwin was the father of evolution just like mendel was the father of genetics. They weren't 100% right and we discovered further things.

Quote
& my belief is that Allah is much more knowledgeable than any of the worldly scientists so I believe that Allah & his Prophet knows the best about the ancestors of humans & how he brought Adam alayhisalaaam in this world , but still Allah doesn't mention in what form was Adam (p.bu.h) was created in , coz we know hauwa alayhisalaam was produced from his spine or ribs I guess , & neither does the Quran mention anywhere that in which state he was brought into the world so I am not very certain on this topic , only thing which I can say now is that Allah knows the best

Yes Allah knows best and he has told us in the Quran that he created humans in diverse stages, formed us then perfected our forms, grew us out of the Earth like plants .

Hawwa was created from ribs? That is an old biblical lie..You are a muslim who follows the Quran not biblical nonsense.

What was I thinking? of course. Hadiths incorporated some biblical nonsense into themselves and thus Muslims are stuck with the Christians in denying a scientific fact. Ugh...

Please brother, listen to Allah words and follow nothing but the Quran.

Quote
& one thing I forgot to mention that till date no animal has been found to change its basic characteristics ( I.e change from one species to another) neither has any kind of mutation proved to be useful although some scientists say that africans have developed sickel cell anaemia in order to protect themselves from malaria but its like cutting your legs in order to prevent yourself from car accidents

Evolution is a long process, you won't see immediate results. Mutations occur and useful ones occur-look at resistant strains of bacteria. Natural selection occurs in real life in bacteria. Why can we see mutations and natural selection LIVE in bacteria? Because bacteria reproduce must faster than animals. Animal evolution is a much longer process. it is absolutely no surprise what you mentioned.

Sickle cell anemia is a beneficial mutation because of the heterozygous advantage. many people die from it because they are born homozygous. The only reason the mutation occurred is because heterozygotes survived best.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 11:20:51 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2014, 05:36:07 AM »

Quote
Actually its a 100% misconception about the theory evolution where many of us misunderstand the theory when we say that man evolved from apes , when you superficially read the theory you most probably misunderstand it , actually the theory states that man & apes had the common ancestor from which they evolved , but it doesn't say that man evolved from apes or vice versa
Wither they calim we descend from apes or that we and apes are cousins is the same .

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2014, 08:23:03 AM »
Salam

I want to let everyone know that i will not be responding to mclinkins post. I had been writing a reply to mclinkins response since yesterday, i stayed about 4-5 hours writting up in the blog box. I completed up to point 3 and with added more bulletpoints, stayed up till 4am until i fell asleep. so this morning i left firefox as it is and left to work, when i came back i planned to complete it. But my damn damn damn mozilla had a error and closed down. When i reoppened mozilla, the blog page came up but EVERYSINGLE THING that i wrote in the text box has gone. It just bloody went away. Damn this compiuterrr. I am so freaking angryy i cant tell you how much. Allahu Rabiiiii

All the work that i done is gone away. I have not the patience of researching everything from scratch again, and sadly the thoughts i gave in it are no longer in my head as i wrote it down. so i will stop my replies to this topic. everybody that reads this, please make your own research and see the truth for yourselves. If any reader wants to ask me a question about a point or a part of mclinkins reply to my post, please message me or something and inshallah i will answer. Well thats that

salam alaykum

Wa Alaikum As'salam dear brother Ali,

I am so sorry about what happened to you.  Always save your thoughts in Notepad, akhi, and then copy and paste them to the blog.  This is much safter, Insha'Allah (if Allah Almighty is Willing).

If you guys feel that a thread, any thread, is consuming your times, then let me know and I can lock it from further posts.  Just let me know.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline Mohammed

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2014, 01:25:49 PM »
Assalam 3laikum Everyone

@mclinkin , dont you think Evolution for Humans is a hoax and dissporved multiple times, CAUSE TILL DATE THERE IS NO PROOF FOR IT. And here is a statement from Charles darwin himself

"But I believe in natural selection, not because, I can prove, in any single case; that it has changed one species into another, but because it groups and explains well (as it seems to me) a host of facts in classification, embryology, morphology, rudimentary organs, geological succession and distribution..." - Charles Darwin

The above statement is from Darwin's Letter, in which he explicitly states that he is aware of FAILING TO EXPLAIN evolution.

Darwin wrote this letter to Thomas Thorton Esq. in 1861.

The letter is contained in L'Evolution du monde vivant' [The Evolution of the Living World] [Published by Plon, Paris, 1950].

M. Vernet(the Author of the book) notes that the letter is preserved at the British Museum (Ref A DD MS. 37725f.6)]


Evolution is just an ideology which was accepted SO WIDELY JUST BECAUSE IT WENT AGAINST the catholic Church(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution).

http://www.discoveringislam.org/origin_of_man.htm <---- Enough proof that Evolution is Hoax like the Crucification of Christ.
Why do you have to put in a weak theory into the Quran ?

Who knows when this theory will get Officially disproved and then later, the NON-MUSLIMS, Completely ignoring the meaning of the Arabic Words, WiLL START POINTING THAT "QURAN HAS A SCIENTIFIC ERROR CAUSE IT SPEAKS ABOUT EVOLUTION" .

I think it is extremely best if you show ESTABLISHED SCIENTIFIC FACTS in the Holy Quran rather than the ones that are weak or disputed.

"Science always takes a U-Turn " - Dr. Zakir Naik

Please let me know if i have understood any of you.

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2014, 05:55:00 AM »

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2014, 06:44:56 AM »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brother "Black Muslim",

May Allah Almighty bless you for the link akhi.  This is to let brother Mclinkin that he's free to respond since I asked everyone to no longer discuss evolution here, because it always ends up a flood of posts, which could be very distracting to the participants who are students.

But since you posted it, akhi, then I'll have to give the other side a fair chance.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2014, 03:08:27 AM »
I didn't post it willing to start it over again . I'm just telling him about the fraud . He told us that he sees these creatures alive . I think the pictures are the real thing . But what heackel has been faking is not .

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2014, 02:26:11 PM »
I didn't post it willing to start it over again . I'm just telling him about the fraud . He told us that he sees these creatures alive . I think the pictures are the real thing . But what heackel has been faking is not .

salam alaikum
http://www.gawaher.com/topic/740161-the-biogenetic-law-the-recapitulation-misconception/

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2014, 06:28:40 PM »
http://creation.com/fraud-rediscovered

I was hoping for a more Quranic evolutionary discussion rather than the science.

In the article you have mentioned, you are taking this invalid, discredited theory and making it as if it is part of modern evolutionary biology.

Many people forget that Darwin was only the first one who presented evidence for evolution. His work does not reflect modern evolutionary biology. This is because he did not understand concepts such as Genetics, molecular biology and other biotechnological methods to gather evolutionary evidence. Darwin would be like Mendel (the father of Genetics). Both of them made mistakes. Imagine, you putting the whole science of Genetics as being false because mended made some mistakes. Modern Genetics is not entirely based off of Mendel although Mendel provided the basis for our genetic study. The same thing goes with Darwin and evolution. Attacking the scientists themselves does not give you an argumentative gain. The evidence is what we should be attacking. The fact that you think that Allah just pulled some creatures out of a magic hat is rather insulting to Allah. As Allah is the ingenious creator. And not only that the Quran has informed us that humans were created in stages and grew from the earth progressively like a plant. A plant is something you plant in the ground, leave it alone and provide its sustenance, and it will grow through a series of successive stages. That is exactly how a human grew from the earth progressively. Allah provided the Earth sustenance and planted us (the first cell) and we grew through successive stages. It does NOT fit with your understanding that Allah randomly pulled humans out of a magic hat and put them on the Earth, rather, humans grew FROM the earth as plants. And if you notice the two verses are very close to each other on the same Surah. Humans were created in stages--few verses later--humans grew out of the earth like plants. It is clear what message Allah wanted us to get. But we are discussing the science now.

Everyone knows that Haekel was a Fraud, but his work does not undermine the modern evolutionary scientific fact. What you are doing is you are presenting one fraud and you are saying that this means that the foundation of evolutionary biology is therefore fraudulent.

I've gotten the following form talk-origins. If you have any evolutionary problems, this is the website to refer to before mentioning it here. These so called "theories" against evolution have all been dealt with.

Evolutionary theory is not founded on Haeckel's observations or theories. Haeckel's work was discredited in the 19 th century, and has not been relevant to biology since the rediscovery of Mendel's laws of genetics. That the biogenetic law is false has been the consensus of biologists for over 100 years, and developmental biologists have been working constructively to provide alternative explanations, which have so far all been evolutionary in nature.

The similarities between vertebrate embryos are real. We must distinguish between observations of those similarities and hypotheses about their causes. The similarities are not in doubt; there are worthwhile studies of the degree and timing of the similarities, but none that question their overall existence. What Wells has described is one hypothesis about the cause, Haeckel's biogenetic law, which failed early and spectacularly. He has not addressed any modern hypotheses, nor has he provided a better alternative.

Evidence for common descent lies in the unity of form and process. We do not use Haeckel's outmoded, invalid mechanism to argue for evolution. Instead, we look at the marvelous convergence of disparate organisms on common principles: all animals use the same genes to define regions of their bodies, all vertebrates build their faces by unlikely rearrangements of odd pharyngeal protrusions, and even tailless mammals like us have to start with tailed embryos. The best explanation for these phenomena is that they are a consequence of a common heritage.
-----

 I have taken multiple Animal development courses and currently, I am working on a Ph.D in Microbiology. In those Animal development courses, you actually get to see vertebrate and invertebrate embryos. If you actually are skeptical of the similarities, I invite you to see them for yourself.

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2014, 12:05:29 AM »
Quote
I was hoping for a more Quranic evolutionary discussion rather than the science.

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Mclinkin94,

This is a topic that I wanted to debate you on, and I guess we could start it now :).  I of course come with complete humbleness and respect to you and to everyone, especially that I am the owner of this blog.  So please, feel free to speak your mind freely.  I only stopped a few threads about this subject in the past, because I didn't want it to be distracting to the young students that we have here in both college and high school.  I don't mind debates at all as long as they don't become compulsive and out of control and devouring to one's time and personal life.

Having said that, I would like to directly engage you by inviting you to visit: www.answering-christianity.com/cloning.htm.  Here are some of the reasons, from many, why evolution is completely false according to Islam.  First, when I say "evolution", I mean us becoming humans from animals.  This is completely rejected in the Holy Quran for the following reasons:



The Popular Belief of Multiplying is Wrong:

1-  Did you know that according to the Holy Quran Itself, humans weren't created from just sexual intercourse from Adam and Eve, and certainly not from their immediate children having sex with each others?  In other words, the popular belief that Adam and Eve had offsprings through their marriage and sex, and their offsprings (siblings) had sex with each others and had other humans, and those other humans had sex and multiplied into other humans, and those other humans had sex and multiplied and so on.....  This popular belief is wrong! 

2-  According to the Holy Quran, Allah Almighty performed what we call today CLONING from Adam and Eve's immediate children, peace be upon all of the righteous ones from among all of that family.  I've written about this long before you joined this blog in the past at:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,842.msg2547.html#msg2547

The Noble Verse that I analyzed in great details is:

‏7:172 واذ اخذ ربك من بني ادم من ظهورهم ذريتهم واشهدهم على انفسهم الست بربكم قالوا بلى شهدنا ان تقولوا يوم القيامة انا كنا عن هذا غافلين 

[007:172]  When thy Lord drew took (اخذ) from the Children of Adam - from their loins backs (ظهورهم)- their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never mindful":

2-  And according to the Holy Quran, Allah Almighty CREATED and FASHIONED Adam, and blew from His SPIRIT into Adam's NEW BODY and made Adam alive, peace be upon him.  And then Allah Almighty ordered all of the Beings of the Universe to bow down to Adam.  Iblis, who later became satan, refused.  You can read about all of this at:

www.answering-christianity.com/holy_spirit.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/adam.htm


So, there you have it my dear brother.  Evolution is rejected in the Holy Quran.  Now, the ISLAMIC EVOLUTION is that we used to be much bigger than what we are today.  We used to be 60 arms tall, or 90 feet tall, and kept shrinking:

www.answering-christianity.com/adam.htm

I hope this helps, Insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah


Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2014, 01:40:00 PM »
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As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Mclinkin94,

This is a topic that I wanted to debate you on, and I guess we could start it now :).  I of course come with complete humbleness and respect to you and to everyone, especially that I am the owner of this blog.  So please, feel free to speak your mind freely.  I only stopped a few threads about this subject in the past, because I didn't want it to be distracting to the young students that we have here in both college and high school.  I don't mind debates at all as long as they don't become compulsive and out of control and devouring to one's time and personal life.

Thank you for allowing me to speak my mind freely. And of course there will be no disrespect in my posts, all my posts will do is present Quranic evidence and possible show evidence that a certain interpretation is correct than the next. If anything seems disrespectful, I would like to apologize beforehand.  :) I don't take anything you say in this debate personally and please don't take anything I say personally!

For this debate, I would like to completely leave the hadith scene. I will not present hadiths as I do not take them as valid sources (this could be another debate, but for now, we are looking at the Quranic disclosure on evolution. you cannot interpret the Quran using a weak-potentialy corrupted source like hadiths or the bible. The Quran is to be interpreted by the Quran itself).


Quote
Having said that, I would like to directly engage you by inviting you to visit: www.answering-christianity.com/cloning.htm.  Here are some of the reasons, from many, why evolution is completely false according to Islam.  First, when I say "evolution", I mean us becoming humans from animals.  This is completely rejected in the Holy Quran for the following reasons:


This is an interesting article and that verse about altering Allah's creation is absolutely relevant in modern times. We are manipulating Allah's creation as we speak. With biotechnology coming over, we are injecting genes into new organisms.

I obviously don't agree that it is rejected in the Holy Quran that humans came from animals and that we were made in diverse successive stages and those stages involved primitive humans whom which we became successors of the Earth with.



Quote
The Popular Belief of Multiplying is Wrong:

1-  Did you know that according to the Holy Quran Itself, humans weren't created from just sexual intercourse from Adam and Eve, and certainly not from their immediate children having sex with each others?  In other words, the popular belief that Adam and Eve had offsprings through their marriage and sex, and their offsprings (siblings) had sex with each others and had other humans, and those other humans had sex and multiplied into other humans, and those other humans had sex and multiplied and so on.....  This popular belief is wrong! 

It is possible that this popular belief is wrong. I have nothing against the belief as whether these beings mated or not has no relevance to evolution. If Adam and eve did not mate, then they are just 2 people whom which we all descended from.

many Muslims would go against your view, because of Quran 4:1

 [Quran 4:1] O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one nafs and created from it its pair and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear Allah , through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is ever, over you, an Observer.

Many Muslims assert that this means that Allah created us from Adam and then created eve from adam and then they made many men and women from them. If this is the case, then your view is wrong. But, I don't believe this is the case. Allah did not mention the names of Adam and Hawwa on purpose. This verse is telling us that ALL humans came from a singular "nafs". But what is a "nafs"? A "nafs" is not necessarily a human being.

The question arises: What is a 'nafs'? 'Nafs' is a living being as the following verse informs us:

(Quran 21:35) Every living being (nafsin) shall have a taste of death


Thus we must conclude that we were created from a singular living being in which its pair was created from it. This singular cell and its pair then made many human men and women. 21:35 "Every living being (nafsin) shall have a taste of death." Whatever dies have Nafs. So it means any living being including single cell being. Therefore, in verse 4:1 "Who has developed you from one Nafs (living being), and from it its mate and sent forth from both many male and female.", one Nafs was not Adam, it talks about the "same origin" of all nafses (beings), the rudimentary simple single cell and the relation between the Nafses.

Since the origin of all living being is same, they certainly were not separately created. There is NO verse that tells that the living being were developed separately. In fact Quran 2:30 tells us that we became successors on Earth. The Question arises, successors to who?

If you have noticed that the Quran started by saying that Allah created us a from a living being and from THAT singular living being, MEN and WOMEN (humans) formed.

This is completely in line with how the first cell formed from clay and that cell is the ancestor of all beings on earth.



Quote
2-  According to the Holy Quran, Allah Almighty performed what we call today CLONING from Adam and Eve's immediate children, peace be upon all of the righteous ones from among all of that family.  I've written about this long before you joined this blog in the past at:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,842.msg2547.html#msg2547

The Noble Verse that I analyzed in great details is:

‏7:172 واذ اخذ ربك من بني ادم من ظهورهم ذريتهم واشهدهم على انفسهم الست بربكم قالوا بلى شهدنا ان تقولوا يوم القيامة انا كنا عن هذا غافلين 

[007:172]  When thy Lord drew took (اخذ) from the Children of Adam - from their loins backs (ظهورهم)- their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never mindful":

I have been looking into this recently. I would say that it is possible that this is what the Quranic verse is referring to. The other alternate valid translation is that "Drew from their loins", would be the semen that was taken from their loins. But it is possible that Allah intervened for some reason. The fact is that it still says that Adam and Hawwa may have been husband and wife and that they are 2 people whom which we all descended from. It is also possible that Adam and Hawwa may not be a husband and wife and they were just 2 people whom we all descended from. My point is, it doesn't matter exactly how it occured--it just matters where they came from. And this verse informs us that Adam and Eve (the pair of humans in which we have all descended from, came from sexual reproduction).

(Quran 35:11) And Allah did create you from dust; then from a reproductive fluid; then He made you in pairs

^It says "THEN" allah made humans in pairs. So if Adam and eve were a pair (male and female), then they were made AFTER allah created sexual reproduction (reproductive fluid). This fact by it self informs us that the hadith explanation that Adam was not formed from sexual reproduction or in an embryo is wrong. Adam was created from sexual reproduction and he was formed in an embryo and he may have had a parent.

In fact, Jesus was born in an embryo and he had a parent. The Quran informs us that Adam was created in the same way (it is possible, he may not have had a father):

(Quran 3:59) Surely the likeness of Jesus is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.

Both were created from dust: Yes
Both were created from the embryo: Yes
Both had a parent: Yes
Both had Allah intervening in their wombs: Yes


Quote
2-  And according to the Holy Quran, Allah Almighty CREATED and FASHIONED Adam, and blew from His SPIRIT into Adam's NEW BODY and made Adam alive, peace be upon him.  And then Allah Almighty ordered all of the Beings of the Universe to bow down to Adam.  Iblis, who later became satan, refused.  You can read about all of this at:

www.answering-christianity.com/holy_spirit.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/adam.htm



I do not deny that Allah created and fashioned Adam and blew from his spirit onto Adam. These events do not undermine the Quranic support for evolution. Adam was chosen to be the one whom which the spirit was blown into. The problem is you are assuming that the spirit gives life. The spirit is something that Allah did not explain what it is. It does not have to be life giving. The spirit could be the soul that Allah has inserted into Adam and his progeny so that Allah could test us. Adam and his descendants marked the creation of humans. This is where Allah inputs your soul.

 Adam was just chosen to be the descendant of the Earth. And at that moment that is where Allah ordered the beings to bow to Adam. That is the moment where Allah asked Adam the names.

Allah did create Adam in stages from Clay.
Allah did proportion his creation until it reached the human level. (Allah made his creation better)
Allah did blow into Adam his spirit.

(Quran 32:7) Allah is He who has perfected everything he created, and He began the creation of the human (being) out of clay--> He made everything he created better. Evolution seems to explain the mechanism of perfecting God's creation. (Clay is a product of wet earth-Exactly what you are made of: Water and Earth.

What's even more fascinating about this verses is that Allah say he made all of his creation better from the original and he began the creation of a human. This verse is hinting at a connection. A connection that human beings were made through a process of evolving better than the original creation.

(Quran 32:8) Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

^This verse comes right after the previous one. So AFTER human beings BEGAN forming,, our posterity comes from an extract of semen. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.

(Quran 32:9) Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

^AFTER Allah made sexual reproduction, he proportioned us and given us vision/hearing/consciousness.

Allah BEGINS the process of creation, lets sexual reproduction happen, and then we get proportioned and achieve higher consciousness. Aren't these verses clear in their support of gradual creation of humans?

The preceding verse seems to be a highlight of the major evolutionary steps and it uses a sequential conjunction to illustrate its purpose. Creation began from a basic earth like substance (clay), then after the initiation of creation, sexual reproduction develops and then after that higher intelligence forms. This verse specifically says that our posterity was made from an extract of a liquid disdained, this implies that after the initiation of creation of man from the Earth, the ability to sexually reproduce formed.  After sexual reproduction formed, higher intelligence develops. Evolutionary, we can say that life formed from the Earth (or what became to be the earth). Their mode of reproduction was asexual. Then sexual reproduction occurred which allowed for more variation and more complexity in organisms. Through sexual reproduction, more variation occurred which allowed extremely complex multicellular organisms capable of thought, like humans to develop. This Quranic verse appears to highlight such a phenomenon by stating that creation started out of the Earth, then sexual reproduction developed, then humans formed.


This is extremely fundamental as it describes the creation of humans on earth EXACTLY AS IT HAPPENED!

(QURAN 7:11)And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], THEN given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"


We were created in one form (early hominid), THEN given another form (human form), THEN Allah made the angels prostrate to Adam. Look at the sequence of events and the evolutionary implication.  We were created in a form, then given human form, Then Adam was created, then Allah made the angels prostrate to him. That means that the creation of Adam involved many diverse stages.


Another Quranic verse informs us that Allah creates by increasing and adding on to his creation. Making his creation better!

(Quran 35:1) All praise is due to Allah , Creator of the heavens and the earth, who made the angels messengers having wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

In this verse, Allah informs us that he increases the complexity of creation. He adds onto his creation things--He improves upon/perfects his creation. This verse is informing us that Allah increases complexity in creation and that he works through improving creation. Also notice what chapter this verse happens to be coincidentally in. The chapter name is "The originator". Just by mere juxtaposition, the Quran informs us that Allah originates creation and he adds on to creation. Now look at this verse in reference to 32:7. Now do you see why I appeal to translation #2? Allah prefects his creation, he improves it, he adds on to it, he makes it good. Allah perfects his creation.

(Quran 82:7) O mankind, what has deceived you concerning your Lord, the Generous, Who created you, then proportioned you, and then balanced you?


This verse may refer to three main stages of the creation of human beings. The first was creation of a living cell (The Arabic verb khlaqa, created). The second was the change from unicellular prokaryote organism to the multi-cellular eukaryote animal organism (The Arabic verb sawwa, fashioned you). The third was the human departure from the animal stage (The Arabic verb 'adala, made you walk in an upright way, fixed you, made you better). Allah has improved his creation. Allah has added on to his creation, just like Allah mentioned when he said he added wings to angels. Allah originates creation, then Evolves it (increases it, improves it, perfects it).
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 02:17:20 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2014, 02:19:18 PM »
Asalamu Alaikum brother Osama. Thanks for your patience. I had to firstly finish up a research paper I'm writing and then I spent time reviewing this cloning theory. I have to admit that it may be possible. If that is the way it happened, though, it doesn't have any effect on the Quranic evolution support.

Thank you for your patience. I have updated the previous post. It is now complete  :)

Offline Md.Mobashir Mallick

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2014, 02:34:57 PM »
@mclinkin , although it ain't mentioned in the Quran about Hadiths specifically , but again in the Quran it is written to follow Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) specifically , so how to follow him now exactly obviously through the SAHIH HADITHS , now obviously one will be fooling himself if he accepts the Quran & rejects the prophethood of Prophet Muhammd p.b.u.h , how can such a gr8 person through whom Allah revealed the Quran can be wrong when Allah perfected him , so brother I would like you to think about it & moreover if didn't had the Hadiths then we wud have known we have to perform salah , but how? We wud hav known to perform zakaat byt how? We wud have known to perform hajj but how?? So brother you shud start believing in hadiths at least the authentic ones

Offline Md.Mobashir Mallick

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2014, 02:49:44 PM »
Now brother glad to hear you are a microbiologist , I too am a student of medical in India & I've been trying to study the darwin theoru & neo darwinism but after thinking about it logically I've come to a point that its partially right , I.e only adaptation & survival of the fittest can fit but not the theory of evolution , like you said evolution is a long process & man has also been living in this earth since a very long time , I mean since millions of yyears if any kind of evolution wud have been shown then obviously we wud have got atleat some historical facts to support it & moreover if man evolved from the common ancestors of apes then most probably all the apes shud have been evolved into a man since we all know that man survives better than apes & can adapt better but this ain't the case , & at last I wud again like to say that I am not sure about evolution so I can't say anything & Allah & his messenger knows the best

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2014, 12:29:58 PM »
@mclinkin , although it ain't mentioned in the Quran about Hadiths specifically , but again in the Quran it is written to follow Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) specifically , so how to follow him now exactly obviously through the SAHIH HADITHS , now obviously one will be fooling himself if he accepts the Quran & rejects the prophethood of Prophet Muhammd p.b.u.h , how can such a gr8 person through whom Allah revealed the Quran can be wrong when Allah perfected him , so brother I would like you to think about it & moreover if didn't had the Hadiths then we wud have known we have to perform salah , but how? We wud hav known to perform zakaat byt how? We wud have known to perform hajj but how?? So brother you shud start believing in hadiths at least the authentic ones

Hello brother Mallick! I cannot follow hadiths as they haven't been authorized by the Quran nor the prophet Muhammad. In fact, we know that the prophet Muhammad did not state anything pertaining to religion that is relevant to us besides the Quran and we know it through this verse:

verses 69:43-47
"[It is] (Quran) a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
Had he uttered any other teachings (besides this revelation-Quran),
We would have seized him by the right hand;
Then We would have cut from him the aorta.
And there is no one of you who could prevent [Us] from him."


^it shows that Muhammad could not have taught anything else than the Quran, otherwise God would have killed him! It (Quran) is a revelation from the lord of the worlds. If Muhammad has uttered any other word, he would have been killed and the Quran makes it clear that if the prophet has taught any other teaching besides the Quran, the teaching is invalid and the prophet would be killed. 


To follow the messenger, means to follow the message (quran). IF you follow the Quran, you follow the message which means you follow the messenger which means you follow Allah.

There is one thing you need to know about hadiths.

The number of hadiths collected and attributed to the prophet Muhammed is in the hundreds of thousands, as much as 700,000. The majority of these hadith are pure lies and fabrications and were rejected by the early Muslim scholars who thought they can figure out which hadith is authentic and which is not. Let us look at some of the famous hadiths collectors and what they collected.

(1) Malik Ibn Anas collected about 500 hadiths in his famous book, "Al-Muwattaa"

(2) Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, collected about 40,000 hadiths, in his famous "Musnad".He chose these 40,000 hadiths from among 700,000 hadiths. In other words he thought 660,000 hadith were un-proven, lies and/or fabrications and the others may be authentic. That is 94% lies and fabrications

(3) Bukhari collected about 600,000 hadiths and accepted 7275 hadiths and considered 592,725 hadiths to be un-proven hadiths, lies and/or fabrications, that is almost 99% of what he collected

(4) Moslem collected 300,000 hadiths and only accepted 4000 of them, and refused about 296,000, that is almost 99% of these collected hadiths .

If we have had THAT much corruption in our hadiths, what makes you think the prophet said any of the 'sahih' hadiths? This whole system is flawed. Those people (bukhari and others) accepted the ones that they perceived good and the ones that they agreed with and thought the Quran supports. As if they are infallible.

This gives us an idea of how much corruption entered or tried to enter Islam from the back door. Now we should understand why God promised to preserve, protect and safeguard His book which is described as the only authentic hadith, the only acceptable hadith and the best hadith.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 12:51:33 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline MuslimBoy

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Re: Creation from clay?
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2014, 09:49:20 AM »
;D As'salamu Alaikum everyone, I was thinking to comment on your "Islamic Evolution" from a long ago but Your "your-only" interpretation resist me. Firstly, the Debate should be on wether Islam supports Abiogenesis or not but the debate was Wether Islam supports Evolution or not. Secondly, Brother Mclinkin, Abiogenesis and Evolution are interdependent : If Abiogenesis is True than Evolution is also true but If Evolution is true than it does NOT NECESSARILY means that Abiogenesis is true, For Abiogenesis, There are (allegedly) some plenty of Evidences that (allegedly) prove it True and For Evolution, there is NOT a SINGLE strong evidence of MacroEvolution (the theory that states Any species can turn into a whole new one just because of Natural Selection) besides Abiogenesis but Abiogenesis is itself is not so much strong that it can prove MacroEvolution right but Islam mainly resist Abiogenesis and for explaining Abiogenesis, we have evolution and Proving evolution, we have Abiogenesis, Did not it is a fallacy (if we reject/disprove the so-called evidences of Abiogenesis)? . For your all interpretation of Quran, It is a chance of 50/50, each verse can be interpreted in either way. Moreover, There are some verses, where you are only in some 40 or even 30 and others interpretation is a lot more convincing. And Last, I think (Personal Opinion) that Muslims can believe in Evolution, at least in some terms such as MicroEvolution but Abiogenesis is a thing that is discredited and put into Garbage by Islam. I had asked a question " Did Muslims can Believe in theory of Evolution?(Opinions Needed) " but everyone thinks that I was asking about Abiogenesis and even I do not told them that as I am a careless person.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 10:24:15 AM by MuslimBoy »