Author Topic: The 3 Oldest Manuscripts Containing the Corrupted Greek New Testament  (Read 4007 times)

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Offline servant

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I write this comment with the utmost respect for upright, fair and just Muslims who indeed follow Allah with all sincerity; free from selfish intent.  I can appreciate your apologetic blog articles that tend to be in direct response to the juxtaposed articles in Answering-Islam.  Apologetics itself is indeed a worthwhile endeavor so long as it is done with honest insight and a humble sense of wisdom of one’s own strengths and weaknesses.  This is true for both Christianity and Islam respectively.
Your particular article concerning the three “oldest and corrupted” Greek manuscripts does point out some good things for all to think about, although it does have flaws.  First, you are discussing mostly complete published manuscripts in your attempt to date the earliest Christian writings to hundreds of years after Issa (PBUH) lived and taught.  You also have to take into consideration there are hundreds of earlier individual manuscripts and letters that can be dated much earlier to the 1st and 2nd century CE.  Still, Christians recognize already that many of the writings were done at least decades later and beyond, as well as allowing for hundreds and thousands of other manuscripts to be copied from those earlier ones.  Christian’s also recognize and respect the care and scholarship that these writings were done in by scholars and scribes.  This is a source of strength for Christians as opposed to a source of weakness for Muslims.  Here is only one good example of how so many different writings through so many centuries have actually strengthened the position of the Christian writings: http://carm.org/ manuscript-evidence.
What you have to consider is that if you are going to impose such critical evidence to Christian writings, you have to be willing to do the same towards your own.  You cannot put other writings through such litmus test and not apply the same to the ones you are defending.  With that in mind, yes, there minor variances in the various Greek Christian texts as they were scribed and penned by different hands.  This is a natural and inevitable fact that happens as humans, regardless of their moral, ethical intent or skill level.  This was also true of the Old Testament Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic writings; as they too were written and compiled over hundreds of years.
Now, what you have to be willing to do is accept such critical scholarship to be honestly and humbly applied to the Holy Quran.  For, it is a matter of faith For the Christians and the Jews to state that their respective writings were written at one time by a few individuals and are without blemish.  It is a matter of scholarship to accept that this might not be true through historical, linguistic and semantic evidence.  By doing so you do not devalue or show disrespect to the text you are trying to defend.  Just the opposite, you actually show the text and the people behind it even more respect.
Therefore, you have to accept that the Holy Quran itself was written and compiled over hundreds of years (not just 23 years) by various human hands, in various areas and regions,even if by careful inspired scribes.  With such facts, this means that the various Holy Quranic texts and manuscripts themselves were not without textual variants that had to be looked at, discussed and certain human decisions made just like with the Israelite and Christian texts.   This is evidenced simply by the committee put together by Abu Bakr and Zayd ibn Thabit.  There are also many different Quranic manuscripts from other eras separate and apart from other later manuscripts scribed during the Uthman’s era.  Still the pre-Uthmanic era Sana'a, Yemen manuscripts, as well as the Samarkand codex,  are not known to be part of the manuscripts used by the Zayd committee.  The Zayd committee itself was partially formed because textual variants WERE being noticed apart from historical memorized oracles.  To get more specific, the earlier Arabic without diacritics and other markings is the most accepted form of Arabic used in these earliest manuscripts.  There is still scholarly debate about the purity of the Arabic language in the 6th-7th centuries in certain areas and the influences of bothe the Aramaic and Arabic languages.  What is certain is that the Hebrew language, the Aramaic language, as well as the Arabic language all had histories of first being written without diacritic and/or vowels.  That Arabic HAD to be humanly changed through the years into more modern Arabic.  Therefore, this is another example of a necessary human process of transmittance, not unlike what naturally happened with the Israelite and Christian texts.  Was this process completely mistake free?  Again, most humbly, it certainly was not.  One specific example is the questionable arguments by the pseudonym Luxenberg book.  Arguments for or against hur vs. houri   in Surah 56 can both be explained as Allah WAS a natural Creator who provides for His creation, whether that be with plenty of food or appropriate mates in heaven.  But, sexual promises in heaven would not make sense from either an appropriate Islamic or Christian rendering.  Another example would be the transliteration of wa ma ‘aslamA vs. falammA‘slamA in Surah 37:103 from different Quranic manuscripts and/or texts.
What you have to realize is that these are NOT conscious corruptions but simple textual variants based on different manuscripts and interpretations.  There is evidence of stories entering into the Hebrew OT as well as the Greek NT.  This is no different than later stories entering into the Quran like the story of the virgin birth of Issa to Mary.  This story more than likely was from much later apocryphal books that circulated hundreds of years after the 1st century CE. 
So, even though the Quran has not been translated, or scribed, from as many different manuscripts that doesn’t mean it is absolutely without error.  Again, I am not speaking from a matter of faith but from simple scholarship as this is the litmus test you put forth against the Christian writings.  So, from this, what matters is not necessarily the number of variants, manuscripts or readings but that there are such evidences present in the Islamic Holy writings as well as the Israelite and Christian ones.  Also, such critical review shows that the Holy Quran was not scribed as simply and quickly as is held as a matter of faith.  Therefore the purity of the Quran and Islam can’t be held as being far superior to either Israelite or Christian religions which are part of the three religions of the covenant of Abraham. 
It is with such humble respect and critical scholarship that you should remain less apologetic and fundamental in your position about Christianity.  The same should be true of Christian or Jewish fundamentalists.  This should show the importance of more actual honest and critiical interfaith dialogue.  Personally, I trust texts that have been through so many hands, languages, cultures and processes and still show more similarities than differences than a text that is not allowed to go through such tests.  This doesn’t mean I don’t respect the Quran or Islam but feel that as Islam matures it needs to allow itself to be judged the same as older and more mature religions by the same standards.

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: The 3 Oldest Manuscripts Containing the Corrupted Greek New Testament
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2014, 07:46:45 am »
As'salamu Alaikum Servant,

Welcome to the board.  I pray to Allah Almighty to continue to lead you to the True Path and Light of Islam.  Ameen.

As to your points on the Glorious Quran's Compilation and Preservation, this had been thoroughly discussed and the Holy Quran's perfect Preservation had been thoroughly proven.  This is not an empty rhetoric.  You can see the clear-cut evidence at:

www.answering-christianity.com/quran/textual.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/quran.htm


The very Text of the Glorious Quran is a Divine Miracle.  And the Holy Quran had been perfectly preserved, and is today a copy of the Holy Book that is in the Preserved Divine Tablet.  Again, these are not just empty statements from me.  Believe me, I don't like empty rhetoric!  Much of the Bible (not all of it) is one big empty rhetoric and man-made lies [1].  Not trying to be rude, but rather very honest and open.  The Glorious Quran's Miracle is Overwhelming in Divine Miracles and Truth.  To understand what I am really talking about here, please visit:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links


The following is a little example from the STUNNING NUMERICAL MIRACLES of the Glorious Quran:

Some very STUNNING Divine Miracles:

Here are two of my favorite ones from among the tens (10s) that are listed in this section:

1-  Here is one stunning Numerical Miracle, from the 10s below, for you:

The Glorious Quran has 114 Chapters. The sum of those Chapters is 6555 (1+2+...+114 = 6555). There are also 6236 Noble Verses in the Glorious Quran. Now, IF YOU ADD EACH CHAPTER # with the number of its Verses, then you get a list of numbers. So 1 (first Chapter) + 7 (# of its Verses) = 8. Do this for all Chapters.

1-  The sum of the odd numbers from the list = 6555.
2-  The sum of the even numbers from the list = 6236.

See the XLS file for 100% confirmation.
  

2-  The Great Miracle.  Allah Almighty in the Holy Quran called the Number 19 Miracle "One of the Mighty Ones (Miracles)" (74:30-37) [1] [2].  Did you also know that Allah Almighty Said in Surat Nuh (that's Noble Chapter Nuh (Noah)) that Prophet Noah lived for 950 years among his people.  Yet, all Praise and Glory are due to Allah Almighty Alone, the entire Noble Surah is exactly written in 950 Letters!  You can see this in the scanned images that I produced with my own hand-written verification for each Noble Letter.  Click on the link to see the many Numerical Miracles in the Holy Quran.  Also, see the Numerical Miracles section, below, along with all of the other great sections.


No committee wrote the Holy Quran.  The Uthmanic committee instead DUPLICATED THE ORIGINAL Holy Quran.  The Holy Quran was written by Prophet Muhammad and Angel Gabriel, peace be upon them.  All of the Noble Verses that prove this are in the top links that I gave you.  I openly challenge you to refute them.

As to the manuscripts that were found in Sana, Yemen.  Not sure if you know the geography of that region or not, but do you know how many miles is Sana away from Mecca?  677.4 miles.  Try to walk those on foot and on camel.  You can see this here:

https://www.google.com/#q=how+far+is+sana+from+mecca%3F

The Text of the Arabic Holy Quran is very complex.  Even today, we use simplified versions of It when writing and quoting the Holy Book.  My www.QuranSearch.com search engine, which I built myself, uses the simplified version of the Arabic.  The Sana manuscript is no more than a copy of the Original Holy Quran.  It contains errors because it is NOT THE ORIGINAL.  And like I said, the Holy Quran's Original Arabic is very complex. 

All Praise and Glory and Thanks are due to Allah Almighty Alone.  We today have the Original Holy Quran's Text all perfectly preserved.  Not only that, but millions of copies of the Holy Book had been already printed and distributed.  Indeed, a Divine Promise Fulfilled:

[075:016]  Move not thy tongue, O Prophet, with the revelation of the Qur'an that thou mayest hasten to preserve it.
[075:017]  Surely, upon US rests its collection and its recital.
[075:018]  So when WE recite it, then follow thou its recital.
[075:019]  Then upon US rests the expounding thereof.

‏75:16 لاتحرك به لسانك لتعجل به
‏75:17 ان علينا جمعه وقرانه
‏75:18 فاذا قراناه فاتبع قرانه
‏75:19 ثم ان علينا بيانه

The doomed-to-Hell infidels have nothing but noise on Islam.  Due to their corrupt religions and scriptures, they're full of envy against Islam:

[002:109]  Many of the people of the book like to convert you back to disbelief after your acceptance of faith. (They do so) because of their (egocentric) envy, even though the truth has become clear to them. So forbear and overlook (their arrogance), until Allah enforces the command. Of course Allah has absolute power over all things!

I know it hurts very bad and very deep having an empty and corrupt religion such as your trinity and corrupt bible.  This is why we see overwhelming numbers of your church leaders as pedophiles and thieves and crooks.  That's because they know they follow nothing but lies and conjecture, due to their deep knowledge of their corrupt and empty scriptures.  Look at what Allah Almighty Said about your empty trinity religion and church leaders:

[004:157]  That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
[004:158]  Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

[009:034]  O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom,

And last and not least, even according to the remnants of Truth from your scriptures, Islam is the Original Faith of GOD Almighty to mankind.  The original believers' title was Muslims, Salamays, Mushlams, Mushlems, Mushlimana.  This is also where you get your Hebrew Shalom from.  The Hebrews pronounced the "S" as "SH".  They also pronounce the "A" thick.  So it's really Salam, and not Shalom or Salom.  For ample details, visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/convert_christians.htm

Again, visit the links above for all of the Noble Verses.  May Allah Almighty continue to lead you to Islam.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline MuslimBoy

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Re: The 3 Oldest Manuscripts Containing the Corrupted Greek New Testament
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2014, 05:58:20 am »
But, sexual promises in heaven would not make sense from either an appropriate Islamic or Christian rendering.
As-Salam Walekum Brother, the word Houri means "companions of equal age" and there is no promise of Sex in heaven/Paradise. its just a promise of companions the idea of sex comes from somewhat corrupted hadith. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 06:03:44 am by MuslimBoy »