Author Topic: Is Jinn=Bacteria? What is your opinion?  (Read 57926 times)

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Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Is Jinn=Bacteria? What is your opinion?
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2014, 12:37:28 PM »
The issue with the Jinn being bacteria is that Jinn are beings with free-will and conscious thoughts. Bacteria are not beings with free-will and conscious thoughts, therefore bacteria are not jinn.

I will quickly summarize a flaw in the 'science' of hadith collection and one important point in the collection of these fabrications. I would also like to remind everyone the Quran leaves absolutely NO room for that nonsense. Although Brother Osama takes a view that some hadiths are pointless, I take the view that there is NO other source besides the Quran. Brother Osama asserts that hadith are just supplements to the Quran and if they woudl only explain the Quran. Firstly the Quran makes no mention of that, secondly, even IF the hadiths would just agree with the Quran, then what is the point of following hadiths if all there valid contents are already in the Quran?


Now a quick run through of a flaw in the hadith (or shall I call it the telephone game or chinese whispers)

Flaw 1) The Quran says NOTHING or even mentions the hadiths or following them. If the Quran is the only source of law and says nothing of hadiths and tells us to not follow any other book, then following hadiths are not a commandment from Allah. And if you are a follower of hadiths you are NOT a Muslim (submitter). You disregarded Allah's strict commandment.

Flaw 2) The 'science' of hadiths is bad philosophy and hardly a science. First of all hadiths are chinese whispers, it is like the telophone game in elementary school where you whisper things to student and the student whispers to the next in the whole class. How often is the last whisper the same as the original? Secondly, the hadith collectors decided to collect hadiths and call them 'sahih' based on the character of the hadith whisper chain. Now the issue is, couldn't the fabricator also fabricate the chain of narrations. I could go on and on, but I will later.

Flaw 3) The number of hadiths collected and attributed to the prophet Muhammed is in the hundreds of thousands, as much as 700,000. The majority of these hadith are pure lies and fabrications and were rejected by the early Muslim scholars who thought they can figure out which hadith is authentic and which is not. Let us look at some of the famous hadiths collectors and what they collected.

  • Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, collected about 40,000 hadiths, in his famous "Musnad".He chose these 40,000 hadiths from among 700,000 hadiths. In other words he thought 660,000 hadith were un-proven, lies and/or fabrications and the others may be authentic. That is 94% lies and fabrications
  • Bukhari collected about 600,000 hadiths and accepted 7275 hadiths and considered 592,725 hadiths to be un-proven hadiths, lies and/or fabrications, that is almost 99% of what he collected .
  • Moslem collected 300,000 hadiths and only accepted 4000 of them, and refused about 296,000, that is almost 99% of these collected hadiths .

This gives us an idea of how much corruption entered or tried to enter Islam from the back door. Now we should understand why God promised to preserve, protect and safeguard His book which is described as the only authentic hadith, the only acceptable hadith and the best hadith.

IF that is how much corruption entered in the hadiths, then that should make you think about the nature of hadiths and how they are nothing more than fabrications. I'm sure Bukhari and Moslem are infallible and they would pick the right ones. LOL!! 700,000 hadiths, 99% corruption according to Bukhari. Again LOL  ;D

What does the Quran say about that:

[Quran 6:112] And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy - devils from mankind and jinn, inspiring to one another decorative speech in delusion. But if your Lord had willed, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent.


I believe that all of my beliefs are rational and reasonable. I am open minded and I would be 100% willing to dump a dead belief system. Hadiths are that belief system. You'd have to reach a new height in irrationality to believe in that nonsense even despite the Quran tells us NOT to.

Quran 69:40, 43-46 [That] indeed, the Qur'an is the word of a noble Messenger...And if Muhammad had made up about Us some sayings [besides the Quran],We would have seized him by the right hand; Then We would have cut from him the aorta.

^Muhammad can not make up ANYTHING about Islam/Allah. All he could say about Allah is what is in the Quran. Now you have some hadiths that say things like Jinn make babies cry or that Allah does this and does that and they are NOT in the Quran...

Unfortunately Muslims don't like to question their beliefs even though the Quran tells them to.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 12:40:11 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Is Jinn=Bacteria? What is your opinion?
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2014, 04:13:15 PM »
As'salamu Alaikum everyone,

I have updated my response above with bacteria and hygiene major problems in the Bible's New Testament:


Brother Mclinkin, the Glorious Quran clearly says that the Hadiths came to explain the Glorious Quran:


I also updated the following post by issuing an apology to brother "Black Muslim", and I explained why I got out of line:


Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Is Jinn=Bacteria? What is your opinion?
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2014, 06:29:23 AM »
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Flaw 1) The Quran says NOTHING or even mentions the hadiths or following them. If the Quran is the only source of law and says nothing of hadiths and tells us to not follow any other book, then following hadiths are not a commandment from Allah. And if you are a follower of hadiths you are NOT a Muslim (submitter). You disregarded Allah's strict commandment.

Lie 1) . Quran DOES order us to follow the teachings and commands of the prophet peace upon him and the signs in that are numerous :

{يـا أيـها الذين آمـنوا أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول ولا تبطلوا أعمالكم}
{من يطع الرسول فقد أطاع الله ومن تولى فما أرسلناك عليهم حفيظاً}
{وما آتاكم الرسول فخذوه وما نهاكم عنه فانتهوا واتقوا الله إن الله شديد العقاب}

So flat out , every single Muslim out there MUST know that it is obligatory to obey the prophet peace upon him in what Allah reveals to him . And if you're going to be stubborn and argue that we shouldn't obey him , then don't dare call yourself a Muslim . It isn't me who says so , it the noble Quran which you are most ignorant of :

{فلا وربك لا يؤمنون حتى يحكموك فيما شجر بينهم ثم لا يجدوا في أنفسهم حرجا مما قضيت ويسلموا تسليماً}
{وما كان لمؤمن ولا مؤمنة إذا قضى الله ورسوله أمراً أن يكون لهم الخيرة من أمرهم ومن يعص الله ورسوله فقد ضل ضلالاً مبينا}

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Flaw 2) The 'science' of hadiths is bad philosophy and hardly a science. First of all hadiths are chinese whispers, it is like the telophone game in elementary school where you whisper things to student and the student whispers to the next in the whole class. How often is the last whisper the same as the original? Secondly, the hadith collectors decided to collect hadiths and call them 'sahih' based on the character of the hadith whisper chain. Now the issue is, couldn't the fabricator also fabricate the chain of narrations. I could go on and on, but I will later.

Lie 2) . Your ignorance of Sunnah doesn't hold a value . And since you're so arrogant and full of yourself to ask those who know , I'll give you some fragments about this methodology to slap you with the fact that it is superior to your so called "science" .

First of all , that's a cheap , low , and pathetic attempt to compare the narrations to a school game . If that proves a thing , it proves that you're cheap . The worst is that you expect me to let it "slide" . And whenever I addressed this lie in the past , you ignored it the same way you ignore whatever breaks your back .

Now tell me : If narrating things one man after another isn't a good way - in fact , the best - to judge what's valid and what's not , what is ? You just use your ignorance of the basics of this method to justify your doctrine . Moreover , you use a load of ridiculous conspiracy theories which don't hold a candle to reality which is in turn based on ignorance . That's why I keep saying ignorance and arrogance are a dangerous combination . Just try to bring a methodology to view history and you'll see that it's a huge failure in comarison .

It is outright impossible for all these people living far from each other - one at Persia and the other at the current Tunisia ! - to agree on the same lie and tell it the same way . Whoever has this delusion has to prove it or shut it . You want to delude yourself and others that scholars would just take whatever anyone tells them without any varefication . And if you actually bothered to ask , you'd know that there are 5 conditions to accept a narration which are :

1) The connection of the chain . This means that if someone tells something about a person he can't prove he met - or died before he was ever born - then the narration is dropped at once . It means that a person must say clearly "That person told me" or "I heard that person say" or some other formats which you are too full of yourself to learn about . If he says "That person said" then it's called "Mu'allaq" and that is a type of weak narrations . This goes to show that every detail is important and not a game you play with your friends as in your lala world .

2) Justice of the narrators . This means that not anyone is accepted in narrating . They must be known by name (معلوم العين) and honesty (معلوم الحال) . Even the slightest readiness of that person to lie deems him a liar , dropped (متروك) or any other term . Not just lying , but also any form of sinful acts . And when all or a the majority of scholars who come from different and far places agree that a person is a liar , there is no meaning in anyone saying he isn't . Also , when all or the majority of scholars testiy for someone , accusing him out of thin air is meaningless . Not to mention that these scholars are testifyed for by others from all different categories of people .

3) Adjustment of narrators . It means that the narrators need to have good memory in what they talk about . When someone narrates the same thing the same way to different people at different times , that's a sign of a solid memory . Not just memory , but understanding as well . The narrator needs to understand what the narration says and comprehend it . Too many stumbles or mistakes deem him unworthy . Again , when all of the majority of scholars say that someone is adjusting well then there's is no value in saying otherwise .

And two more conditions , but this is quite enough for the topic righ now . The point is that you use your ignorance of something as an argument . There is nothing wrong with this science . Especially since it is Allah who put the bases to it :

{يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آَمَنُوا إِنْ جَاءَكُمْ فَاسِقٌ بِنَبَأٍ فَتَبَيَّنُوا أَنْ تُصِيبُوا قَوْمًا بِجَهَالَةٍ فَتُصْبِحُوا عَلَى مَا فَعَلْتُمْ نَادِمِينَ}

And although there is nothing superior to what Allah says , just have the words of Bernard Lewis

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From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. " Traditional science", as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and  analytical depth

As for the absurdity of "Narrators could have fabricated chains" , even though the last points I made show that it's impossible for such a thing to go unnoticed , I'll play your game and ask : How do I know that Quran is from Allah and not an innovation of humans ? Because it says that it is from Allah ? Nah , that's circular reasoning . How do I know it wasn't altered or corrupted ? Because it says that it didn't ? Nah , circular reasoning again ? Because you believe there is a Da Vinci code in it that no one except you believes is there ? Hang on a second , how did the prophet of Islam - peace upon him - prove so to people from his time ? Speaking of which , how can I even know that there is a man called Muhammad - peace upon him - who lived 15 centuries ago and said he is a prophet ? Because all the people narrated so to us ? Because it is impossible for all these people to lie and agree on the same details ? Well that makes sense .

And of course I don't use this flawed logic but you are the one who tries to make it rational when you use it .

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Flaw 3) The number of hadiths collected and attributed to the prophet Muhammed is in the hundreds of thousands, as much as 700,000. The majority of these hadith are pure lies and fabrications and were rejected by the early Muslim scholars who thought they can figure out which hadith is authentic and which is not.

Lie 3) . Spamming "The majority of these narrations are pure lies" might work when you argue with 3 years old or mentally challenged individuals , but not with someone who has the slightest bits of common sense . Not to mention that making allegations which have nothing to back them up only makes you look bad . I swear to lord if this conversation was at the monotheism forum they wouldn't let your allegations slide like this . They'd disect them one by one .

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Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, collected about 40,000 hadiths, in his famous "Musnad".He chose these 40,000 hadiths from among 700,000 hadiths. In other words he thought 660,000 hadith were un-proven, lies and/or fabrications and the others may be authentic. That is 94% lies and fabrications

Is this supposed to be a joke or what ? So Ahmad bin Hanbal - رحمه الله - was careul with narrations and wouldn't just accept anything told to him . And I can see what you're trying to do there - see what I did there ? - and again , it won't slide . He didn't just "think" they were lies and thus he refused them . He KNEW they were lies based on the methodology mentioned in the last point . And he didn't choose the authentic ones because thay "may" be so . He did so because he knew they are based on the methodology we keep telling you to learn about or shut up . Sure , he made a number of mistakes here and there which scholars combined noticed and didn't let pass simply but that's another point . The point here is that your line holds a value of zero . The same goes with Bukhari and Muslim - رحمهما الله - . You have SERIOUS flawsin understanding what the science of Hadith is . They collect narrations , judge their chains and bodies (متون) , deem the authnetic authnetic , and warn people of the weak and fabricated and even make whole books for that . Yes , Bukhari has a book named the weak ones (الضعفاء) but you probably don't know . And whatever one of them may not notice is noticed by the rest . That's nearly the same as peer reviewed researches - wich pale in comparison - so why object ?


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This gives us an idea of how much corruption entered or tried to enter Islam from the back door. Now we should understand why God promised to preserve, protect and safeguard His book which is described as the only authentic hadith, the only acceptable hadith and the best hadith.

You'll make a joke of yourself when you say such a line while you just refused the best method there is to preserve history . And although it's true that the people of falsehood tried to corrupt it , it doesn't mean they succeeded . That's the same as the delusions of whoever believes aliens made us . Oh wait a minute , you believe in something similar but that's beside the point .

As for the "Open minded" thing , I'll take it as a joke and ignore it . So take some time and have even the smallest fraction of humblness to learn what you hate and despise in Islam so much .

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Is Jinn=Bacteria? What is your opinion?
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2014, 02:43:36 PM »
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Brother Mclinkin, the Glorious Quran clearly says that the Hadiths came to explain the Glorious Quran:


I would have to disagree with you here.

It really only takes one verse:

Quran 45:6 These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement other than Allah and His verses will they believe?


Let's break this verse down. The beginning of the verse talks about the Quran. THESE are the verses of Allah in which we recite to you in truth. It is speaking of the Quran. You MUST agree with this as any honest person would. A sentence later, Allah tells you in what statement other than THESE verses will YOU believe?

That means no other religious statement other than what is in THOSE verses can be believed.

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Is Jinn=Bacteria? What is your opinion?
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2014, 03:14:54 PM »
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So flat out , every single Muslim out there MUST know that it is obligatory to obey the prophet peace upon him in what Allah reveals to him . And if you're going to be stubborn and argue that we shouldn't obey him , then don't dare call yourself a Muslim . It isn't me who says so , it the noble Quran which you are most ignorant of

Yup, but hadiths are not reveled to Muhammad and are not from Muhammad. They are fabrications. In fact, given that 695,000+/700,000 hadiths were shown to be fabrications by Bukhari gives evidence for my claim.

In fact, the Quran tell us the complete opposite:

Quran 69:40, 43-46 [That] indeed, the Qur'an is the word of a noble Messenger...And if Muhammad had made up about Us some sayings [other than this revelation-Quran],We would have seized him by the right hand; Then We would have cut from him the aorta.

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If narrating things one man after another isn't a good way - in fact , the best - to judge what's valid and what's not , what is ? You just use your ignorance of the basics of this method to justify your doctrine

Narrating things and accepting the narration from the last man is NOT a good way. It fails on it self and renders the last narration unreliable. The best way is to actually hear the words from the prophet and write them down and not spread them to other people.

Now here you assume that there HAS to be hadiths in Islam. You would be wrong, the Quran is sufficient completely on everything relevant to Islam.

”Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?” The Word of your Lord is complete in truth and in justice” 6:115
”This is not fabricated ‘hadith’; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a guidance and mercy for those who believe” 12:111
”We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance and mercy and good news for the submitters” 16:89


In spite of the very clear words: “fully detailed”, “details of everything” and “explanations for everything” the corrupt interpreters somehow still claim that the Quran does not include all the details! Sadly, they claim that the Quran has only mentioned the major outlines of the religion while as the details of everyday rituals are only to be found in the Hadith and Sunna!

These false claims only go to expose these people’s ignorance of the Quran, and also their disbelief in God's words.

What does Allah mean by EVERYTHING?
If a professor tells you, your textbook is complete contains everything and made no exceptions--What are you going to believe? You are going to say that the textbook has everything that is relevant to the course. That does not mean that you can go to another textbook and say that "this other textbook has things relevant to the course that is not in the textbook the professor authorized" The only things that are relevant in the course is everything in the professor's textbook. If any other textbook contains anything else that is not mentioned in the professor's textbook, it is NOT relevant to the course. PERIOD.

I don't know where Muslims make this false claims. They are disbelievers of the Quran and Allah's word.

Then you state certain requirements in the science of hadiths. I will show how they are unreliable

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The connection of the chain . This means that if someone tells something about a person he can't prove he met - or died before he was ever born - then the narration is dropped at once .

Can't a fabricator prove he met someone but lie about what the person he met means? The answer is Yes.

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Justice of the narrators . This means that not anyone is accepted in narrating . They must be known by name (معلوم العين) and honesty (معلوم الحال) .

Can't a fabricator be a hypocrite and being perceived as being honest and then LIE about the chain of narration and list honest people to make it seem like his narration is true? Yes again.

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Adjustment of narrators . It means that the narrators need to have good memory in what they talk about . When someone narrates the same thing the same way to different people at different times , that's a sign of a solid memory .

The fabricator can have good memory in what he fabricated and narrate the same fabrication every time to pass his sick twisted agenda.

So as you have seen these methods are unreliable and not a science not to mention that even honest people can make big mistakes! In fact, I could be considered an honest Muslims to my friends, yet have an atom's weight of dishonesty and I want to pass on an Islamic agenda that I THINK will be good for Islam. Therefore, I will lie about where I got the narration and make it an authoritative source so people believe me. I will remember my lie very well because I made it up.

Now you call this a conspiracy theory and that people don't do this. But Bukhari collected 700,000 hadiths are 99% of them were lies. This supports my belief.

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As for the absurdity of "Narrators could have fabricated chains" , even though the last points I made show that it's impossible for such a thing to go unnoticed , I'll play your game and ask : How do I know that Quran is from Allah and not an innovation of humans ? Because it says that it is from Allah ? Nah , that's circular reasoning . How do I know it wasn't altered or corrupted ? Because it says that it didn't ?

The last points you made do not show that it is impossible for a narrator PERCEIVED as being honest but is actually a hypocrite in lying about the chain of narration. Moreover, honest people can make big mistakes and say something false about a narration unwittingly.

How do I know that the Quran is preserved and from Allah? The number 19 code of the Quran let's us know that unless people in the past had computers, they wouldn't be able to make a book with such a strong numerical consistency.

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Spamming "The majority of these narrations are pure lies" might work when you argue with 3 years old or mentally challenged individuals , but not with someone who has the slightest bits of common sense

you are gonna need to do better than insult my argument. If all of those hadiths (700,000+_were fabrications, then it is likely that the ones we have were also fabrications and now we know that people in the past LIED about the prophet Muhammad. This (combined with the flaws in hadith collection) therefore renders hadiths unreliable. Moreover, the Quran tells us to not believe in ANYTHING with respect to religion unless it is in the Quran.

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So Ahmad bin Hanbal - رحمه الله - was careul with narrations and wouldn't just accept anything told to him .

You missed the point. My point was, there are so many lies in hadiths and so many people lied about the prophet. This means that hadiths are fundamentally unreliable.

Ahmad bin Hanbal is also a human being. He is not infallible. He would obviously accept hadiths that fit his perception as being correct. Even he made a BIG mistake into collecting hadiths based on a flawed science of hadith collection.

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And although it's true that the people of falsehood tried to corrupt it , it doesn't mean they succeeded

Oh, they did succeed at fabrications. There are lies in sahih hadiths that do not agree with the Quran or science. Lies upon lies upon lies.

Here is an example of the success of the fabricator:

Book 039, Hadith Number 6707.
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Chapter : The beginning of the creation and the creation of Adam (peace be upon him).

Abu Haraira reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) took hold of my hands and said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and lie caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after 'Asr on Friday; the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i.e. between afternoon and night.


^This was deemed a sahih hadith. LOL. Now, you would say that some modern islamic scholars disregard this hadith. I would agree with you, BUT, the point was lies did make it to the "sahih" hadiths.

This hadith provides evidence for the fact that

1.) the hadith collection science is flawed
2.) Fabricators have been fabricating in our hadiths
3.) The hadith collectors made mistakes and are not trustworthy

Moreover there are hadiths that sahih Muslim says are reliable taht bukhari doesn't. So these hadith collectors themselves disagree on which one is true.

Given the commands in the Quran, the flaws in the hadith science, the fact that many hadiths were fabrications and lies we should abandon all such pictures altogether.

We need to be Muslim. We need to follow the commands of Allah.

Quran 45:6 These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement other than Allah and His verses (these verses) will they believe?

Let's break this verse down. The beginning of the verse talks about the Quran. THESE are the verses of Allah in which we recite to you in truth. It is speaking of the Quran. You MUST agree with this as any honest person would. A sentence later, Allah tells you in what statement other than THESE verses will YOU believe? That clearly means that the message include ONLY these verses. Nothing else.

What does that verse tell you?! Honestly ask yourself this: Does that sound like Allah wants you to follow something else besides these verses (Quran)? How could any honest person possibly say that sounds like Allah wants us to follow hadiths.


The verses that come immediately after are:

(Quran 45:7-8)  Woe to every sinful liar, Who hears the verses of Allah recited to him, then persists arrogantly as if he had not heard them. So give him tidings of a painful punishment. And when he knows anything of Our verses, he takes them in ridicule. Those will have a humiliating punishment.

You are being tested by Allah as we speak. Are you a sinful liar who hears the clear verses of Allah and then you persist arrogantly as if you had not heard them? If so (which I know you are), then I am giving you tidings of a punishment as Allah ordered me.  And when you read Quran 45:6, you take it in ridicule. Indeed, you will have a humiliating punishment if you persist in this kufr. The only religious statement you are allowed to believe is in THESE verses (Allah's verses).




 
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 03:18:10 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Is Jinn=Bacteria? What is your opinion?
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2014, 03:12:43 AM »
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Yup, but hadiths are not reveled to Muhammad and are not from Muhammad. They are fabrications. In fact, given that 695,000+/700,000 hadiths were shown to be fabrications by Bukhari gives evidence for my claim.

يخرب بيت الخبالة !

I'll completely ignore this point because it's just fantasy talk based on nothing . But when you lie about Allah when you misquote this sign :

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Quran 69:40, 43-46 [That] indeed, the Qur'an is the word of a noble Messenger...And if Muhammad had made up about Us some sayings [other than this revelation-Quran],We would have seized him by the right hand; Then We would have cut from him the aorta.

You're crossing the line . The signs don't help you in anyway . They don't have a thing to do with the current case to begin with ! Here's the full context without cherrypicking like you do :

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38 So I swear by what you see 39 And what you do not see 40 [That] indeed, the Qur'an is the word of a noble Messenger. 41 And it is not the word of a poet; little do you believe. 42 Nor the word of a soothsayer; little do you remember. 43 [It is] a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. 44 And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings, 45 We would have seized him by the right hand; 46 Then We would have cut from him the aorta.

So what do sane people understand from this ? It says that Quran is a revelation from Allah and not something prophet Muhammad peace upon him makes out of his mind . What does that have to do with Sunnah ? Nothing . But you probably think that we're so stupid as to let you fool us with the signs from 44 to 46 . You want to delude yourself that the teachings of the prophet peace upon him are innovations ! When you make such a pathetic attempt , your opponent is Quran itself :

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Najm 1 By the star when it descends, 2 Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred, 3 Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. 4 It is not but a revelation revealed,

Nahl 43 And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask the people of the message if you do not know. 44 [We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.

Sunnah IS a revelation from Allah to agree with Quran , explain it - so that it doesn't let the likes of you make the acrobatic explanations however they like - , or to talk about things Quran didn't mention . They're not innovations of the prophet peace upon him . Wake up of your dreams pal .

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Narrating things and accepting the narration from the last man is NOT a good way. It fails on it self and renders the last narration unreliable. The best way is to actually hear the words from the prophet and write them down and not spread them to other people.

Yet again , you fail miserably in showing any weakness about the science of Hadith . Just empty claims any person can make .

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Now here you assume that there HAS to be hadiths in Islam. You would be wrong, the Quran is sufficient completely on everything relevant to Islam.

Another cheap and low attempt in lying about Allah . Anyone with common sense who reads these signs :

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”Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?” The Word of your Lord is complete in truth and in justice” 6:115
”This is not fabricated ‘hadith’; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a guidance and mercy for those who believe” 12:111
”We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance and mercy and good news for the submitters” 16:89

wouldn't understand thing the way you desire . First of all , Allah is the source of law , and the teachings of the prophet peace upon him are revealed to him by Allah . Done . Secondly , Quran is explained indeed . By who ? By the prophet himself :

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Nahl 44 [We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.

Quran IS complete when it tells us to follow the teachings of the prophet peace upon him which ARE from Allah . Done . Thridly , changing the translation to "Hadith" only makes you cheaper . And if we take the signs in this premetive way of understanding , then where are the laws of gravity in Quran ? Where is the explanation of calculs in Quran ? Where does it tell us how to cook beef ? Forget that , where does it tell us how to pray ? Where does it tell us WHEN to pray ? ANY and EVERY rejector of Sunnah will contradict himself and fall in an endless pit of confusion with his own belif for rejecting it .

Quote
What does Allah mean by EVERYTHING?
If a professor tells you, your textbook is complete contains everything and made no exceptions--What are you going to believe? You are going to say that the textbook has everything that is relevant to the course. That does not mean that you can go to another textbook and say that "this other textbook has things relevant to the course that is not in the textbook the professor authorized" The only things that are relevant in the course is everything in the professor's textbook. If any other textbook contains anything else that is not mentioned in the professor's textbook, it is NOT relevant to the course. PERIOD.

A nice - and failing - attempt pal . Let's take it the other way which you dance around . A teacher tells you your schoolbooks are complete . But to explain them proporly you need to read the textbooks with their notes details . On what planet does that mean the schoolbooks are not complete ? Especially when they tell you to return to the textbooks . PERIOD .

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Can't a fabricator prove he met someone but lie about what the person he met means? The answer is Yes.

The answer is no . You take an entire nation for idiots when you think such lies can pass them all unnoticed .

Quote
Can't a fabricator be a hypocrite and being perceived as being honest and then LIE about the chain of narration and list honest people to make it seem like his narration is true? Yes again.

No again . Why not quote the whole thing pal ? And you dare talk about honesty ?!

Quote
Even the slightest readiness of that person to lie deems him a liar , dropped (متروك) or any other term . Not just lying , but also any form of sinful acts . And when all or a the majority of scholars who come from different and far places agree that a person is a liar , there is no meaning in anyone saying he isn't . Also , when all or the majority of scholars testiy for someone , accusing him out of thin air is meaningless . Not to mention that these scholars are testifyed for by others from all different categories of people .

You make it sound as if hypocrites are stealth ninjas which we can never detect . The fact is that Quran itself shows us their charecteristics :

Quote
2:8 And of the people are some who say, "We believe in Allah and the Last Day," but they are not believers. 9 They [think to] deceive Allah and those who believe, but they deceive not except themselves and perceive [it] not. 10 In their hearts is disease, so Allah has increased their disease; and for them is a painful punishment because they [habitually] used to lie. 11 And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers." 12 Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive [it] not. 13 And when it is said to them, "Believe as the people have believed," they say, "Should we believe as the foolish have believed?" Unquestionably, it is they who are the foolish, but they know [it] not. 14 And when they meet those who believe, they say, "We believe"; but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say, "Indeed, we are with you; we were only mockers."

Quote
9:64 They hypocrites are apprehensive lest a surah be revealed about them, informing them of what is in their hearts. Say, "Mock [as you wish]; indeed, Allah will expose that which you fear."

Quote
9:67 The hypocrite men and hypocrite women are of one another. They enjoin what is wrong and forbid what is right and close their hands. They have forgotten Allah , so He has forgotten them [accordingly]. Indeed, the hypocrites - it is they who are the defiantly disobedient.

Quote
9:81 Those who remained behind rejoiced in their staying [at home] after [the departure of] the Messenger of Allah and disliked to strive with their wealth and their lives in the cause of Allah and said, 'Do not go forth in the heat." Say, "The fire of Hell is more intensive in heat" - if they would but understand.

Not to mention that there is a whole Surah in the noble Quran named after them :

Quote
63: 5 And when it is said to them, "Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you," they turn their heads aside and you see them evading while they are arrogant.

63:7 They are the ones who say, "Do not spend on those who are with the Messenger of Allah until they disband." And to Allah belongs the depositories of the heavens and the earth, but the hypocrites do not understand. 63:8 They say, "If we return to al-Madinah, the more honored [for power] will surely expel therefrom the more humble." And to Allah belongs [all] honor, and to His Messenger, and to the believers, but the hypocrites do not know.

So just hiding behind the pathetic "Maybe they are hypocrites" doesn't add a thing . And if it was that easy , I can say that you're a hypocrite and you have no right object . The same goes to any person .

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The fabricator can have good memory in what he fabricated and narrate the same fabrication every time to pass his sick twisted agenda.

And you think I'll let it slide that they are fabricators as you like to believe ? Check the rest of the conditions again pal .

Quote
So as you have seen these methods are unreliable and not a science not to mention that even honest people can make big mistakes! In fact, I could be considered an honest Muslims to my friends, yet have an atom's weight of dishonesty and I want to pass on an Islamic agenda that I THINK will be good for Islam. Therefore, I will lie about where I got the narration and make it an authoritative source so people believe me. I will remember my lie very well because I made it up.

So you admit that you're a liar . Anyway , honest people MAY make mistakes , but for the WHOLE nation to notice this mistake , your opponent is the noble Quran itself :

Quote
4:115 And whoever opposes the Messenger after guidance has become clear to him and follows other than the way of the believers - We will give him what he has taken and drive him into Hell, and evil it is as a destination.

That is why it is absurd when you think you outsmarted an entire nation and found a mistake it didn't for 15 centuries .Arrogance would be too little to describe that .


Quote
How do I know that the Quran is preserved and from Allah? The number 19 code of the Quran let's us know that unless people in the past had computers, they wouldn't be able to make a book with such a strong numerical consistency.

And that's one of the reasons I believe you are mentally challenged . So you're saying the WHOLE nation for 15 centuries used to be formed of blind believers who have no evidence or proof to their beliefs . Not to mention that the whole thing of a code is ridiculous and anyone can forge it . Christians do it so why not ? And if you think it's really impossible to make a code or such a thing at those times , you're being deluded . History is full of all kinds of knowledge which surprise even the most advanced and experienced right now . You got the pyramids , you got astrology and people who were able to locate a planet around Sirius and worship it - besides the point - , you got batteries in what we know now as Iraq . So the next time you bring this nonsense about Da Vinci codes you're making a complete joke of yourself . That goes to show how low and pathetic rejectors can go to support their doctrine . Here , this sign comes to mind :

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25:43 Have you seen the one who takes as his god his own desire? Then would you be responsible for him?

Quote
you are gonna need to do better than insult my argument. If all of those hadiths (700,000+_were fabrications, then it is likely that the ones we have were also fabrications and now we know that people in the past LIED about the prophet Muhammad. This (combined with the flaws in hadith collection) therefore renders hadiths unreliable. Moreover, the Quran tells us to not believe in ANYTHING with respect to religion unless it is in the Quran.

Do you call that an argument ?! It doesn't differ from those loons who say that Illuminati can control weather and earthquakes . It's all speculations and delusions based on nothing . End of the story . And I will never let you slide anything and take it for a given . If you want to believe that since there are many fabricated narrations then ALL the narrations are fabricated , then I will refuse your religion of evolution JUST because there were cases of faking evidence . Oh sorry , did I hit a nerve ?

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You missed the point. My point was, there are so many lies in hadiths and so many people lied about the prophet. This means that hadiths are fundamentally unreliable.

Need I remind everyone about melons and tornadoes ?


Quote
^This was deemed a sahih hadith. LOL. Now, you would say that some modern islamic scholars disregard this hadith. I would agree with you, BUT, the point was lies did make it to the "sahih" hadiths.

A blunt lie . What do we expect of someone who doesn't know his metatarsus from elbow - makes more sense in Arabic - ? If you bothered ask about it , you'd know that a number of former scholars deemed it weak and Bukhari said it is from the words of "Kab Al-Ahbar" . And instead of asking those who know about what you don't understand , you act full of yourself as if your logic and mind are perfect and superior to the rest of mankind :

http://www.bayanelislam.net/Suspicion.aspx?id=03-02-0008&value=&type=
http://fatwa.islamweb.net/fatwa/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&lang=A&Id=35560
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/showthread.php?48917-%CA%E6%E5%E3-%C8%D8%E1%C7%E4-%CD%CF%ED%CB-quot-%CE%E1%DE-%C7%E1%E1%E5-%C7%E1%CA%D1%C8%C9-%ED%E6%E3-%C7%E1%D3%C8%CA

Again , even if one scholar made a mistake , the whole body of scholars wouldn't let it pass unnoticed .

Here's another point , if Sunnah is really fabricated as you delude yourself , how come the fabricators made miracles in them ? "There are miracles in Sunnah ?" Oh yes , but how would someone who doesn't read know that ? :

http://abohobelah.blogspot.com/2013/01/blog-post_8715.html

Everytime you opent your mouth you prove that you're completely ignorant of Quran , Sunnah , or anything there is about Islam . Aside from your speculations which are based on nothing , you got NOTHING to back your claims up .

Offline ThatMuslimGuy

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Re: Is Jinn=Bacteria? What is your opinion?
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2014, 05:38:49 AM »
What about the Hadith in Sahih Muslim?

There is a Hadith in Sahih Muslim Book 39, Hadith 6707 that reads as the following:

Abu Haraira reported that Allah's Messenger () took hold of my hands and said:
Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and lie caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after 'Asr on Friday;the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i. e. between afternoon and night.


There are numerous criticisms against it.

Al-Bukhârî writes in al-Târâkh al-Kabîr:

"Some of them have said that it is from Abû Hurayrah who took it from Ka`b al-Ahbâr. This is the most correct view."

Ibn Kathîr, in his commentary of the Qur'ân writes:

This hadîth is one of the unusual hadîth found in Sahîh Muslim. `Alî al-Madînî, al-Bukhârî, and a number of other leading scholars of hadîth have criticized it, saying that it is the statement of Ka`b and that Abû Hurayrah merely heard it from Ka`b al-Ahbar and some narrators merely got confused and attributed it to the Prophet (peace be upon him). This has been thoroughly researched by al-Bayhaqî.

Ibn Taymiyah comments:

"It is a defective hadîth. It has been declared defective by more than a few scholars." [Majmû` al-Fatâwâ (17/236)]

Moreover, regarding the text itself, al-Qurtubî points out in his commentary on Sahîh Muslim that the text does not convey its meaning with sufficient coherence. He writes in al-Mufhim:

This hadîth has been related in other sources besides Sahîh Muslim with various conflicting narrations. In some of them the Earth is created on Sunday and Monday while the mountains are created on Tuesday and the trees, rivers, and inhabitants are created on Wednesday, and the Sun, Moon, stars, and angels created on Thursday, and Adam on Friday. These are single-narrator hadîth that conflict with one another and do not provide any practical instruction. We must not rely upon them in determining the order of appearance of created things during those days.

What he is saying is that even if we regard the hadîth as authentic - as a number of scholars do - there remains the problem that there is too much incoherence in its many conflicting narrations to provide evidence for the order of events.

In relation to this Hadith Mufti Shafi Usmani writes in Ma'ariful Quran:


Hafiz Ibn Kathir has also quoted the following as explanation of this verse given by Sayyidna Ibn Abbas with reference to Ibn Jarir:

"The Jews of Madinah came to see the Holy Prophet, and asked him about the creation of the earth and of the skies. The Holy Prophet told them that Allah Almighty created the earth on Sunday and Monday, the mountains and the minerals therein on Tuesday, and the trees, water springs, cities, buildings and desolate plains on Wednesday - all this in four days as stated in the verse.



Then He created the sky on Thursday. And on Friday, He created the stars, the sun, the moon and the angels. All this was completed on Friday when three hours were still left. All the disasters and troubles that everything is going to face were created in the second hour, and in the third period Sayyidna 'Adam (A.S) was created and lodged in Paradise, Iblis was commanded to prostrate before Sayyidna 'Adam (A.S) and turned out of Paradise when he refused to prostrate. All this was completed till the end of the third hour....(Ibn Kathir). At the end, Ibn Kathir says: "This hadith has an element of gharabah" (that is, the contents of this Hadith are not corroborated by other sources)

The commencement of creation took place on Saturday according to a Hadith narrated by Sayyidna Abu Hurairah, reported in Sahih of Muslim. As per this Hadith, it took seven days for the creation of the earth and skies. But generally the explicit verses of the Qur'an mention the duration of creation to be six days.





"And We created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six days, and no weariness even touched Us."(50:38)
Because of this, and also because of its (weak) chain of narrators, this Hadith has been held as 'ma'lul' (defective) by the leading muhaddithin. Ibn Kathir Rahmatullahi 'Alayh: Allah have mercy upon him has stated that this Hadith is one of the strange ones of Sahih of Muslim, and then stated that Imam Bukhari, in his book Tarikh Kabir, has considered this narration to be ma'lul (defective). And some scholars have quoted this statement as a saying of Sayyidna Abu Hurairah, narrated by Ka'b Ahbar, and not as a statement of the Holy Prophet, and have said that this is the most correct. (Ibn Kathir p. 94, vol. 4)

Similarly, other masters of Hadith like Ibn-ul-Madini, Baihaqi, etc. have also considered it to be a statement of Ka'b Ahbar. (Foot note of Zad-ul-Masir by Ibn-ul-Jauzi, p. 273, vol. 7)

The narration of Sayyidna Ibn 'Abbas quoted above from Ibn Jarir has also an element of gharabah, (being against other sources) according to Ibn Kathir. One reason for its gharabah is that in this narration creation of Sayyidna 'Adam (A.S) took place along with the creation of skies in the last hour of Friday, and the divine order for prostration and the exit of Iblis from the Paradise is also mentioned to have taken place in the same hour. But it is patently clear from the text of many verses of the Qur'an that creation of Sayyidna 'Adam (A.S) took place a long time after the creation of the earth and skies, when the earth was provided with all the necessities, and it was inhabited by the Jinns and satans (devils). It was after all this that Allah Ta'ala told the angels that He was going to make a vicegerent on the earth. (Mazhari)


Briefly, of all the ahadith wherein the duration, days and sequence of creation of the earth and skies is narrated, no narration is such which can be said to be as absolutely certain as the Qur'an. Rather, it is very likely that these may be Israelite traditions, not noble ahadith, as clarified by Ibn Kathir about the Hadith quoted in Sahih of Muslim and Nasa'i. Therefore conclusions should be drawn from the verses of the Qur'an only. 

Summary

So what we find is that this hadith is gharabah (being against other sources) and is 'ma'lul' (defective). Furthermore it is believed not to be a statement of the Prophet SAW but of Abu Hurairah and also it is said to be an Israelite tradition. So this hadith cannot be attributed to the Prophet SAW and conclusions regarding the process of creation should only be drawn from the Quran. Therefore it has no impact on the Quranic statement of:

{إِنَّ رَبَّكُمُ اللَّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ}

Indeed, your Lord is Allah , who created the heavens and earth in six periods [Quran 7:54]

http://quran-errors.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/clarifying-issues-heavens-and-earth.html

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Is Jinn=Bacteria? What is your opinion?
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2014, 05:04:33 PM »
What about the Hadith in Sahih Muslim?

There is a Hadith in Sahih Muslim Book 39, Hadith 6707 that reads as the following:

Abu Haraira reported that Allah's Messenger () took hold of my hands and said:
Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and lie caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after 'Asr on Friday;the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i. e. between afternoon and night.


There are numerous criticisms against it.

Al-Bukhârî writes in al-Târâkh al-Kabîr:

"Some of them have said that it is from Abû Hurayrah who took it from Ka`b al-Ahbâr. This is the most correct view."

Ibn Kathîr, in his commentary of the Qur'ân writes:

This hadîth is one of the unusual hadîth found in Sahîh Muslim. `Alî al-Madînî, al-Bukhârî, and a number of other leading scholars of hadîth have criticized it, saying that it is the statement of Ka`b and that Abû Hurayrah merely heard it from Ka`b al-Ahbar and some narrators merely got confused and attributed it to the Prophet (peace be upon him). This has been thoroughly researched by al-Bayhaqî.

Ibn Taymiyah comments:

"It is a defective hadîth. It has been declared defective by more than a few scholars." [Majmû` al-Fatâwâ (17/236)]

Moreover, regarding the text itself, al-Qurtubî points out in his commentary on Sahîh Muslim that the text does not convey its meaning with sufficient coherence. He writes in al-Mufhim:

This hadîth has been related in other sources besides Sahîh Muslim with various conflicting narrations. In some of them the Earth is created on Sunday and Monday while the mountains are created on Tuesday and the trees, rivers, and inhabitants are created on Wednesday, and the Sun, Moon, stars, and angels created on Thursday, and Adam on Friday. These are single-narrator hadîth that conflict with one another and do not provide any practical instruction. We must not rely upon them in determining the order of appearance of created things during those days.

What he is saying is that even if we regard the hadîth as authentic - as a number of scholars do - there remains the problem that there is too much incoherence in its many conflicting narrations to provide evidence for the order of events.

In relation to this Hadith Mufti Shafi Usmani writes in Ma'ariful Quran:


Hafiz Ibn Kathir has also quoted the following as explanation of this verse given by Sayyidna Ibn Abbas with reference to Ibn Jarir:

"The Jews of Madinah came to see the Holy Prophet, and asked him about the creation of the earth and of the skies. The Holy Prophet told them that Allah Almighty created the earth on Sunday and Monday, the mountains and the minerals therein on Tuesday, and the trees, water springs, cities, buildings and desolate plains on Wednesday - all this in four days as stated in the verse.



Then He created the sky on Thursday. And on Friday, He created the stars, the sun, the moon and the angels. All this was completed on Friday when three hours were still left. All the disasters and troubles that everything is going to face were created in the second hour, and in the third period Sayyidna 'Adam (A.S) was created and lodged in Paradise, Iblis was commanded to prostrate before Sayyidna 'Adam (A.S) and turned out of Paradise when he refused to prostrate. All this was completed till the end of the third hour....(Ibn Kathir). At the end, Ibn Kathir says: "This hadith has an element of gharabah" (that is, the contents of this Hadith are not corroborated by other sources)

The commencement of creation took place on Saturday according to a Hadith narrated by Sayyidna Abu Hurairah, reported in Sahih of Muslim. As per this Hadith, it took seven days for the creation of the earth and skies. But generally the explicit verses of the Qur'an mention the duration of creation to be six days.





"And We created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six days, and no weariness even touched Us."(50:38)
Because of this, and also because of its (weak) chain of narrators, this Hadith has been held as 'ma'lul' (defective) by the leading muhaddithin. Ibn Kathir Rahmatullahi 'Alayh: Allah have mercy upon him has stated that this Hadith is one of the strange ones of Sahih of Muslim, and then stated that Imam Bukhari, in his book Tarikh Kabir, has considered this narration to be ma'lul (defective). And some scholars have quoted this statement as a saying of Sayyidna Abu Hurairah, narrated by Ka'b Ahbar, and not as a statement of the Holy Prophet, and have said that this is the most correct. (Ibn Kathir p. 94, vol. 4)

Similarly, other masters of Hadith like Ibn-ul-Madini, Baihaqi, etc. have also considered it to be a statement of Ka'b Ahbar. (Foot note of Zad-ul-Masir by Ibn-ul-Jauzi, p. 273, vol. 7)

The narration of Sayyidna Ibn 'Abbas quoted above from Ibn Jarir has also an element of gharabah, (being against other sources) according to Ibn Kathir. One reason for its gharabah is that in this narration creation of Sayyidna 'Adam (A.S) took place along with the creation of skies in the last hour of Friday, and the divine order for prostration and the exit of Iblis from the Paradise is also mentioned to have taken place in the same hour. But it is patently clear from the text of many verses of the Qur'an that creation of Sayyidna 'Adam (A.S) took place a long time after the creation of the earth and skies, when the earth was provided with all the necessities, and it was inhabited by the Jinns and satans (devils). It was after all this that Allah Ta'ala told the angels that He was going to make a vicegerent on the earth. (Mazhari)


Briefly, of all the ahadith wherein the duration, days and sequence of creation of the earth and skies is narrated, no narration is such which can be said to be as absolutely certain as the Qur'an. Rather, it is very likely that these may be Israelite traditions, not noble ahadith, as clarified by Ibn Kathir about the Hadith quoted in Sahih of Muslim and Nasa'i. Therefore conclusions should be drawn from the verses of the Qur'an only. 

Summary

So what we find is that this hadith is gharabah (being against other sources) and is 'ma'lul' (defective). Furthermore it is believed not to be a statement of the Prophet SAW but of Abu Hurairah and also it is said to be an Israelite tradition. So this hadith cannot be attributed to the Prophet SAW and conclusions regarding the process of creation should only be drawn from the Quran. Therefore it has no impact on the Quranic statement of:

{إِنَّ رَبَّكُمُ اللَّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ}

Indeed, your Lord is Allah , who created the heavens and earth in six periods [Quran 7:54]

http://quran-errors.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/clarifying-issues-heavens-and-earth.html

Hello brother,

I was absolutely aware that this hadith is rejected by most Muslims. But, brother, you missed the point!

My point was to prove that lies and fabrications reached the "sahih" hadiths. You can go back to my post and see what I mean  ;)

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Is Jinn=Bacteria? What is your opinion?
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2014, 05:24:46 PM »
Hello brother black Muslim, I don't have time to respond to your every claim. So if you don't mind, if there are any claims you feel are really important that I didn't address. Please let me know. I am trying to show you and all the other Muslims the sunnah of ALLAH.

This is about chapter 69: 40-46:

Quote
So what do sane people understand from this ? It says that Quran is a revelation from Allah and not something prophet Muhammad peace upon him makes out of his mind . What does that have to do with Sunnah ? Nothing . But you probably think that we're so stupid as to let you fool us with the signs from 44 to 46 . You want to delude yourself that the teachings of the prophet peace upon him are innovations ! When you make such a pathetic attempt , your opponent is Quran itself

It says more than that brother and it is completely about the sunnah.

Quran 69:40, 43-46 [That] indeed, the Qur'an is the word of a noble Messenger...And if Muhammad had made up about Us some sayings,We would have seized him by the right hand; Then We would have cut from him the aorta.

The messenger is prohibited from adding his own teachings to the message he received from God (Quran). If he does he would be committing a great error that would incur a severe punishment from God. The hadiths are allegedly the messenger's own teachings besides (Quran). This means that the prophet's alleged sunnah should therefore be rejected.

Quote
Najm 1 By the star when it descends, 2 Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred, 3 Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. 4 It is not but a revelation revealed,


You claim is that the words "It was divine inspiration" indicate that every word spoken by Muhammad in his life time (or at least since he started receiving the revelation at the age of 40) is to be regarded as being divine inspiration. As a result of this false claim, you  preach that all Muslims must obey every word spoken by the prophet, whether it is Quran or his personal sayings (hadith).

From a linguistic point of view, we note that God says "In Huwa ila wahe yuha" 53:4 ..... this literally translates to (It is nothing but inspiration being inspired). the word "Huwa" is a key word in this verse, it literally means 'it', but that is not all. The word 'it' in English does not give a gender, 'it' could refer to a masculine or a feminine equally. However, in Arabic the word "Huwa" refers to the masculine (as opposed to the word Hiya which refers to the feminine). The word "Huwa" here refers to the Quran which is masculine in gender.

What all this means is that in this verse, God is specifically speaking about the inspiration of the Quran to Muhammad. God is not speaking about every word uttered by Muhammad!!

It is amazing how much corrupting of the Quran you need to do to make it support the lie that there is a second source of revelation other than the Quran!

Quote
Nahl 43 And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask the people of the message if you do not know. 44 [We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.

So you bring up Quran 16:44 again??

You are still missing the point!
you are still turning a blind eye to the command in 45:6
 
please read this verse again where God prohibits us from following ANY hadith other than the Quran.
why do you ignore this command?
 
"These are God's revelations (Quran) that We recite to you truthfully. In which hadith other than God and His revelations (Quran) do they believe?" 45:6
 
In addition, please note the following:
 
1- We are told in the Quran that it is God who explains the true meaning of the Quran:
 
"Al-Rahman, He teaches the Quran" (55:1-2)
 
God is the One who explains the Quran, but he will only explain it to the hearts of those who are satisfied with God alone and God’s word alone.
 
2- The prophet was commanded to follow the recitation of the Quran, but was also reminded that it is God who explains the Quran:
 
[75:16] Do not move your tongue (O Muhammad) to hasten it (the Quran).
[75:17] It is We who will collect it and provide its recitation.
[75:18] Once We recite it, you shall follow such a recitation.
[75:19] Then it is WE who will explain it.

 
Guess what brother!
These glorious words are immediately followed with the words:
 
[77:49] Woe on that day to the rejecters.
[77:50] So in which hadith, other than this (Quran), do they believe?

 
 
3- The Prophet Muhammad was commanded by God to tell the people that he cannot guide them:
 
[72:21] Say (O Muhammad), “I posses no power to harm you, nor to guide you.
 
If the prophet cannot guide us (all guidance comes from God) how can we say that we can get guidance from the hadith?
 
-------------------------------------------
 
It is important that you take these Quranic words seriously brother, for your own soul,
do not turn a blind eye to the words of God in the Quran.
 
Why is it so difficult to believe all the words of God which I showed you?
 
Do you want to be sorry on Judgement day and say I wish I did not let my ego blind me from the truth?

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Quran IS complete when it tells us to follow the teachings of the prophet peace upon him which ARE from Allah . Done . Thridly , changing the translation to "Hadith" only makes you cheaper . And if we take the signs in this premetive way of understanding , then where are the laws of gravity in Quran ? Where is the explanation of calculs in Quran ? Where does it tell us how to cook beef ? Forget that , where does it tell us how to pray ? Where does it tell us WHEN to pray ? ANY and EVERY rejector of Sunnah will contradict himself and fall in an endless pit of confusion with his own belif for rejecting it . 

LIES! The Quran does not tell us in ONE verse to follow another revelation besides it. And This argument (prophet teaches us the meaning of the Quran) falls flat on its face since it contradict the Quran:
 
1- Would God want us to attain the meaning of the Quran through the hadith of the prophet, then command us to believe no hadith other than the Quran (45:6)? Is God contradicting Himself?
 
2- Would God tell us that the prophet will explain the Quran to us then tell us specifically that it is He who explains the Quran (55:1-2) and that the Prophet was not assigned the job of explaining the Quran (75:19)?
 
3- Would God assign the duty of explaining the Quran to the prophet, then also tell us that the ONLY duty of the prophet is to deliver the Quran:
 
[5:99] The sole duty of the messenger is to deliver God’s message, God knows what you reveal and what you conceal.
 
The question after reading all  this is:
Do we believe God’s words, or do we believe the one who makes such claims?

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A nice - and failing - attempt pal . Let's take it the other way which you dance around . A teacher tells you your schoolbooks are complete . But to explain them proporly you need to read the textbooks with their notes details . On what planet does that mean the schoolbooks are not complete ? Especially when they tell you to return to the textbooks . PERIOD .


EXACTLY! The issue with the Quran is it did NOT say that you need another source to properly understand the Quran! IN fact, it said quite the contrary!

Are we finally on the same page???

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Yet again , you fail miserably in showing any weakness about the science of Hadith . Just empty claims any person can make .

Let's assume for one second that I don't know the science of hadith. Didn't you list some components of the science and didn't I show you its flaws??

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wouldn't understand thing the way you desire . First of all , Allah is the source of law

Allah IS the source of law and the source of law is NOT present in the sunnah, it is present in THIS book. Read the verse again:

”Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?” The Word of your Lord is complete in truth and in justice” 6:115

THIS book (Quran) is fully detailed and complete! No exceptions were made in the Quran. That means that following hadiths makes you a disbeliever!

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Quran IS complete when it tells us to follow the teachings of the prophet peace upon him which ARE from Allah . Done . Thridly , changing the translation to "Hadith" only makes you cheaper . And if we take the signs in this premetive way of understanding , then where are the laws of gravity in Quran ? Where is the explanation of calculs in Quran ? Where does it tell us how to cook beef ? Forget that , where does it tell us how to pray ? Where does it tell us WHEN to pray ? ANY and EVERY rejector of Sunnah will contradict himself and fall in an endless pit of confusion with his own belif for rejecting it .

The QUran is complete in terms of religious relevance!

If a professor tells you that your textbook has everything you need to know and is complete, you KNOW it means everything that you need to know FOR the course! Meaning this book will give you everything that is relevant! So of course a physics book is not going to discuss poetry. And a literature book is not going to explain calculus! This makes your argument nothign more than a rant.

The QUran doesn't explain calculus because it is not relevant to Islam in terms of worshiping Allah. Just as a biology book doesn't explain poetry because it is not relevant to the study of biology!

Where does the Quran tell us how to pray and when to pray?.....I KNOW you did not mean that. I know that you know where.

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The answer is no . You take an entire nation for idiots when you think such lies can pass them all unnoticed .

It has happened in the past, hasn't it? So why are the modern scholars immune?

How about Christianity, huh? How did all these lies get past the scholars unnoticed?

I hope you realize this is not an argument. You are only ranting.

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You make it sound as if hypocrites are stealth ninjas which we can never detect . The fact is that Quran itself shows us their charecteristics :

A really good hypocrite would be hard to detect.....Secondly, you forgot about the role of people making honest mistakes in the hadith literature.

So you didn't address my arguments against the 'science' of hadiths, you just said hypocrites are impossible to have existed. What a lie.

Only one fact can let you see for sure that hypocrites did exist and did lie. Bukhari collected 700,000 hadiths and he thought around 2,000 were authentic. That means there were 600,000+ hadiths that were lies probably stated by hypocrites...

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So you admit that you're a liar . Anyway , honest people MAY make mistakes , but for the WHOLE nation to notice this mistake

Again, you appeal to the ''whole nation'' crap. A whole nation was wrong before. Take Christianity. 

Again, this isn't an argument. I actually want to see evidence from the Quran that I have to follow hadiths and evidence that the science of hadiths is valid. So far, none were given. What I got instead are a bunch of Quranic misinterpretations and a bad defense of the science of hadiths by appealing to authority and saying the whole nation can't be wrong....Yes ,they can and they have in the past.



« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 06:54:40 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Is Jinn=Bacteria? What is your opinion?
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2014, 06:40:34 PM »
There are many eye-openers in the Quran that clearly point you away from hadiths. This is one of them:

"Say (O Muhammad), "What is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me to warn you with it and whomever it reaches." 6:19

This testimony which God describes as "Akbar Shahada" (the Greatest Testimony) commands Muhammad to testify that He received the Quran from God. This testimony speaks of only one revelation received by Muhammad from God which is the Quran. If Muhammad truly received other revelations from God (other than the Quran), would we not find any mention of it in the Quran? Would God hide the fact that He gave Muhammad a revelation independent of the Quran and then command us to obey it?

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Is Jinn=Bacteria? What is your opinion?
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2014, 12:37:27 AM »
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Hello brother

Don't expect a "hi" in return .

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The messenger is prohibited from adding his own teachings to the message he received from God



It seems my words go in an ear and go out the other ! Quran is always your opponent :

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Najm 1 By the star when it descends, 2 Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred, 3 Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. 4 It is not but a revelation revealed,

Nahl 43 And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask the people of the message if you do not know. 44 [We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.

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You claim is that the words "It was divine inspiration" indicate that every word spoken by Muhammad in his life time (or at least since he started receiving the revelation at the age of 40) is to be regarded as being divine inspiration. As a result of this false claim, you  preach that all Muslims must obey every word spoken by the prophet, whether it is Quran or his personal sayings (hadith).

Really , you need to be slapped for constantly lying . The cheap and pathetic attempt you make to delude us that the teachings of the prophet peace upon him are his personal opinions won't be tolerated . That's first . As to the second point : HOW IN THE WORLD DOES YOUR BRAIN FUNCTIONS !? Who on earth understands this ?! We said that the teachings of the prophet peace upon him when it comes to religion are revelation . Who gave you the ridiculous idea that EVERY SINGLE THING HE SAID is revelation ?! There is even a narration about this case :

http://abohobelah.blogspot.com/2013/01/blog-post_4803.html

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From a linguistic point of view, we note that God says "In Huwa ila wahe yuha" 53:4 ..... this literally translates to (It is nothing but inspiration being inspired). the word "Huwa" is a key word in this verse, it literally means 'it', but that is not all. The word 'it' in English does not give a gender, 'it' could refer to a masculine or a feminine equally. However, in Arabic the word "Huwa" refers to the masculine (as opposed to the word Hiya which refers to the feminine). The word "Huwa" here refers to the Quran which is masculine in gender.

What all this means is that in this verse, God is specifically speaking about the inspiration of the Quran to Muhammad. God is not speaking about every word uttered by Muhammad!!

I give you zero out of ten in comrehending . You don't just go against the way an entire body of scholars through history understood Quran , you think you outsmart them in a language you fail at . These are 3 explanations by Ibn Uthaimeen , Assa'di , and Ibn Katheer . And none of them supports you :

http://www.ibnothaimeen.com/all/books/printer_17822.shtml
http://www.imadislam.com/tafsir/053_01.htm
https://ar.wikisource.org/wiki/%D8%AA%D9%81%D8%B3%D9%8A%D8%B1_%D8%A7%D8%A8%D9%86_%D9%83%D8%AB%D9%8A%D8%B1/%D8%B3%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%A9_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%86%D8%AC%D9%85

And I suppose that "وحي"=revelation is feminine ?! I suppose حديث=Hadith is feminine ?! Stop trying to sound smart with Arabic , it doesn't help you in any way .

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So you bring up Quran 16:44 again??
You are still missing the point!
you are still turning a blind eye to the command in 45:6
 please read this verse again where God prohibits us from following ANY hadith other than the Quran.
why do you ignore this command?
 "These are God's revelations (Quran) that We recite to you truthfully. In which hadith other than God and His revelations (Quran) do they believe?" 45:6

For the gazillionth time , trying to delude people with changing the translation into "Hadith" to support your ideology means nothing . And for the gazillionth time , you ignore the fact that Sunnah IS a revelation from Allah . THAT'S the point which I won't let you shove aside .

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1- We are told in the Quran that it is God who explains the true meaning of the Quran:
 "Al-Rahman, He teaches the Quran" (55:1-2)

If we take it with this premetive way of view as you do we'd be accusing Allah of contradicting . Exalted he is from what you describe !

16:44 [We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.

Not to mention that you rejectors contradict Quran AND yourselves in your explanations of Quran . Just as Allah says :

22:8 And of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening book [from Him],

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2- The prophet was commanded to follow the recitation of the Quran, but was also reminded that it is God who explains the Quran:

Explain it through what or who ? It doesn't matter how much you try to make your way out of this . Without the prophet peace upon him explaining Quran anyone can say whatever the hell they want and THAT'S what's happening . And with this - again - premetive way of viewing the sign , it's as if you're saying Allah talked to people and explained Quran to them directly !!! Exalted he is from what you describe !

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3- The Prophet Muhammad was commanded by God to tell the people that he cannot guide them:

I take it back , I give you 1 in comprehending , in negative of course . Not only does this have nothing to do with the case , you completely don't know what you're talking about . Do you understand the differences between the kinds of guiding ? Check point 2 here if you don't :

http://www.alukah.net/sharia/0/21793/

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Why is it so difficult to believe all the words of God which I showed you?
 
Do you want to be sorry on Judgement day and say I wish I did not let my ego blind me from the truth?

That's my line blind man .

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LIES! The Quran does not tell us in ONE verse to follow another revelation besides it.

I won't repeat it for you . If it's difficult for all that information to get to you , I'll let people judge . Time is more precious than spending it arguing about basic teachings of Islam .

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EXACTLY! The issue with the Quran is it did NOT say that you need another source to properly understand the Quran! IN fact, it said quite the contrary!
Are we finally on the same page???

The fact is that I'm in a valley , and you're apparently on Saturn !

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Let's assume for one second that I don't know the science of hadith. Didn't you list some components of the science and didn't I show you its flaws??

I listed a fraction of strong points in the science of Hadith which show that it isn't a play thing as you think . And all I got in return was objections full of "Maybe there's a conspiracy" and all that sort .

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Where does the Quran tell us how to pray and when to pray?.....I KNOW you did not mean that. I know that you know where.

YES I meant it . And I can see what you're gonna say coming and I swear that without the teachings of the prophet peace upon him you'll be contradicting yourself and accusing the entire Muslim population of misguidance .

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It has happened in the past, hasn't it? So why are the modern scholars immune?

Again , the cheap attempt of "It happened in the past" won't slide like that .

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How about Christianity, huh? How did all these lies get past the scholars unnoticed?

http://randomonius.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Annoyed-facepalm-picard-l.png

Did you SERIOUSLY just use Chrsitianity as a scapegoat ?! You just used the Bible which is full of unknown writers as a scapegoat ?! If you're so deluded as to put both at the same level then that's YOUR OWN PROBLEM ! Not to mention any theorist can claim the same about Quran using your logic .

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A really good hypocrite would be hard to detect.....Secondly, you forgot about the role of people making honest mistakes in the hadith literature.

Your opponent is Quran . There's a whole lot of charecteristics hypocrites share and they can't go unnoticed . Any of them deem someone unworthy of narrating even if he's truly a Muslim . Explanation ? Even a Muslim may have some charecteristics of hypocrites and still be a Muslim . That however is a dangerous sign and not an excuse to keep them . As for holding to "They make mistakes" , again , such a mistake wouldn't pass an entire nation unnoticed . AGAIN , your opponent is the noble Quran :

4:115 And whoever opposes the Messenger after guidance has become clear to him and follows other than the way of the believers - We will give him what he has taken and drive him into Hell, and evil it is as a destination.

Not to mention I can claim you are a hypocrite based on your logic .

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So you didn't address my arguments against the 'science' of hadiths, you just said hypocrites are impossible to have existed. What a lie.

http://memecrunch.com/meme/SW6M/you-re-pathetic/image.png

It is rather cheap when you ignore every response to your speculations against Sunnah . What't cheaper is when you try to put words in my mouth . You have until the judgement day or until one of us dies to bring this line - or anything similar - out of any post I have :
"hypocrites are impossible to have existed"

And if you seriously have difficulties understanding what people say , I'll give you until the next post to try and figure out what I actually said and meant .

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Again, you appeal to the ''whole nation'' crap.

So you finally decided to show your true colors huh ? Well Mr "Unnecesarry mentioning of the human body disposals" , your opponent again , and again , AND again is Quran itself :

4:115 And whoever opposes the Messenger after guidance has become clear to him and follows other than the way of the believers - We will give him what he has taken and drive him into Hell, and evil it is as a destination.

Oh , and I know you'll be talking about the pictures I put . When you lie , put words in my mouth , ignore whatever kills your argument , you shouldn't be surprised .
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 12:48:49 AM by Black Muslim »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Is Jinn=Bacteria? What is your opinion?
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2014, 03:10:53 PM »
I see a lot of arrogance in your posts. A lot of ad hominems a lot of insults...and not many actual arguments. It seems as if you are the definition of a kaffir according to the Quran.

Your first problem is your failure to grasp Quran 45:6

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For the gazillionth time , trying to delude people with changing the translation into "Hadith" to support your ideology means nothing . And for the gazillionth time , you ignore the fact that Sunnah IS a revelation from Allah . THAT'S the point which I won't let you shove aside


"These are God's revelations (Quran) that We recite to you truthfully. In which statement other than God and His revelations (Quran) do they believe?" 45: 6

There, I changed the word "hadith" to "statement" just to make you feel better. My argument remains.

The Sunnah CANNOT be a revelation from Allah based on this above verse.

This verses states that THESE are God's revelations. What does "these" revelations refer to? It refers to THIS book--the Quran.

So Allah is telling you that these are God's revelations that we RECITE to you. In what OTHER statement other than THESE (Quran) Revelations will YOU believe in??

You completely disregarded this point. This is the verse that defeats you and there is no way of it.

It is important that you take these Quranic words seriously brother, for your own soul,
do not turn a blind eye to the words of God in the Quran.
 
Why is it so difficult to believe all the words of God which I showed you?
 
Do you want to be sorry on Judgement day and say I wish I did not let my ego blind me from the truth? Do you really want to stand before your lord and say that?

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Really , you need to be slapped for constantly lying . The cheap and pathetic attempt you make to delude us that the teachings of the prophet peace upon him are his personal opinions won't be tolerated . That's first . As to the second point : HOW IN THE WORLD DOES YOUR BRAIN FUNCTIONS !? Who on earth understands this ?! We said that the teachings of the prophet peace upon him when it comes to religion are revelation . Who gave you the ridiculous idea that EVERY SINGLE THING HE SAID is revelation ?! There is even a narration about this case :

Hadiths. They follow every thing he said. Not only that if the prophet muhammad says dogs are haraam to keep in the house, then dogs are haram to keep in the house. I'm sure Allah really wanted us to not have dogs in our house, it seems very relevant to Islam, eh? Hadiths say things the prophet said and you follow it. IN fact, hadiths tell you that you should even dress and look like him....LOL---sounds like you are making idolatry of the prophet Muhammad. I think the prophet would be sick to the stomach knowing what corruption occurred and how many people idolize him. And more importantly, the prophet and Allah would be ashamed of you.  I hope you are able to see your own hypocrisy. The prophet himself would be disappointed in you and what has become of his ummah.

The Quran also predicts that:

The Messenger will say, my Lord, my people have deserted this Qur’an. (25:30)

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I give you zero out of ten in comrehending . You don't just go against the way an entire body of scholars through history understood Quran , you think you outsmart them in a language you fail at . These are 3 explanations by Ibn Uthaimeen , Assa'di , and Ibn Katheer . And none of them supports you

Again with the authority argument. Again....This is crap. You don't need so called 'scholars' to explain the Quran. The Quran said no such thing. God will explain the Quran, you seek to learn the Quran. Nowhere does it state follow scholars. Scholars have been wrong in the past, and they are wrong now.

I have repeatedly shown you that this argument from authority that you are basing your faith on is crap. I could just site Quranist scholars to show you the opposite. Or even better, I could cite shia scholars to show you you are wrong. This DOESN"T give me an argument!

I want you to actually address the argument. Not say, "you are wrong because my scholars disagree with you".

Back to the Quranic verse you didn't agree with:

Najm 1 By the star when it descends, 2 Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred, 3 Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. 4 It is not but a revelation revealed,

I had stated that from a linguistic point of view, we note that God says "In Huwa ila wahe yuha" 53:4 ..... this literally translates to (It is nothing but inspiration being inspired). the word "Huwa" is a key word in this verse, it literally means 'it', but that is not all. The word 'it' in English does not give a gender, 'it' could refer to a masculine or a feminine equally. However, in Arabic the word "Huwa" refers to the masculine (as opposed to the word Hiya which refers to the feminine). The word "Huwa" here refers to the Quran which is masculine in gender.

You replied by saying:

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And I suppose that "وحي"=revelation is feminine ?! I suppose حديث=Hadith is feminine ?! Stop trying to sound smart with Arabic , it doesn't help you in any way .


I think this is where you really showed your lack of arabic understanding. But, I am not going to discuss further. Just read my argument again.

I will tell you however, that I know that you DO agree that the Quran should be interpreted using other verses in the Quran, correct? So if this is the case then Quran 53:4 should be interpreted using other verses. Okay, let's do that.

whats their take on Surat Al Najeem (The Star):

Some Quranists would say what he speaks in 53:3 is the same truth spoken in 51:23. It is important to remember that Quranists try their best to take a holistic approach to the Quran and not attempt to understand a verse in isolation. If you read 51:23 and then read onwards to its conclusion, you see that the Messenger was commanded to warn the people (51:55). The warning is what he was speaking. And we know from 6:19 that he was commanded to warn with the Quran.

Also, the next verse 53:4 says that what he speaks is nothing but wahy - revelation. And wahy is defined in 6:19 as the Quran.


So now you have TWO reasons to believe that Quran 53:4 is not speaking of hadiths or any other soruce of revelation except the Quran. I have given you a linguistic reason and another reason that uses a hollistic approach of the Quran by interpreting Quran 54:3 using other verses.

But, you will continue to persist arrogantly... I know you will. This makes you a disbeliever and I would have a hard time calling you a Muslim at this point.

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If we take it with this premetive way of view as you do we'd be accusing Allah of contradicting . Exalted he is from what you describe !

16:44 [We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.

The words in 16:44 clearly state that the messenger can only make things clear to the people by means of what is revealed to him (Quran). This is also confirmed in 6:114 which states that the only source of law is the book. In addition, the messenger is prohibited from adding his own teachings to the message he received from God. If he does he would be committing a great error that would incur a severe punishment from God (see 69:44-46).
It must also be said that a common misunderstanding arises when one or two verses are looked at in isolation. Without looking at all the relevant verses dealing with one particular Quranic topic, a misleading deduction can be arrived at.

If we read 16:44 and 3:164 on their own it may well appear that the messenger can fully explain the Quran to the people and that he is the teacher of the Quran, but what about when we read 55:1-2 which says that God is the teacher of the Quran?

Also, what about 75:19 where God is speaking to the messenger and tells him clearly that it is He (God) who will explain the Quran?

It is clear that when we read other verses we get a different picture.

As a result, we must arrive at a common meaning which would be in harmony with all the Quranic verses and not just 3:164 and 16:44.

The common meaning is that the messenger delivered the Quran to the people and that he spent all his remaining days preaching the Quran and commanding people to follow it and showing them what the Quran requires them to do. The messenger was literally a walking Quran when it comes to religious questions! If someone asks him how to do wudu, the prophet would recite the Quran and tell them exactly what it says without adding anything to the Quran--since the Quran is the only source of law (6:114 and 45:6).

However, the messenger cannot guide anyone or guarantee that all people will understand the true message of the Quran. It is God, and God alone, who can guide the people and truly explain the message of the book to the ones who deserve the guidance.

The Quranic verses which confirm this truth are numerous, such as:
“You cannot guide the ones you love. God is the only One who guides in accordance with His will, and in accordance with His knowledge of those who deserve the guidance.” 28:56

And in 72:21 the messenger is commanded to proclaim to all people:
“I possess no power to harm you nor to guide you” 72:21

The messenger is a tool and a medium between God and the people, but the messenger cannot change what is in the heart nor can he implant belief into any heart nor can he guide anyone, he can only pass the message:
"The sole duty of the messenger is to deliver the message (Quran)" 5:92

This duty does not only apply to the messenger, it applies to any Imam or teacher or preacher. There are thousands of such teachers all over the world today giving lectures, lessons and sermons. They all try to explain the Quran, but do all their listeners understand the message of the book?

The answer is NO!

The fact that 99.9% of all Muslims today are following a corrupt religion that has little to do with the Quran, and the fact that they are committing “shirk” (associating partners with God) by making the prophet a partner with God in everything they say or do and including his name along side the name of God in every worship practice (shahada, Salat, Hajj, etc), which is contrary to the Quranic command in 6:162 which states that all our worship practices must be dedicated to the name of God alone; all this confirms that despite their numerous scholars, Imams, interpreters and teachers, with all their volumes of 'tafseer' (interpretations/explanations), they have not really understood the simple message of the book. All their teachers could not really explain the principal message of the Quran to them which is to dedicate all our worship rituals and practices to the name of God alone (6:162) and to accept the Quran as the only source of law (6:114).

It remains to remind ourselves with the clear command in 45:6:

“These are God's revelations (Quran) that We recite to you truthfully. In which hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?” 45:6

It follows that all who say that we need the hadith because the hadith explains the Quran are in fact showing their utter rejection of the command in 45:6 for not accepting any hadith other than the Quran.

---------------------------------

To conclude, the messenger is authorised to use the Quran alone to preach to the people. The messenger will pass the message of the book to all people and invite all to accept and follow the Quran, but he cannot guide anyone nor guarantee that anyone will attain the true message of the book. And if the messenger cannot guide anyone (72:21), so much for the claim which states that the Hadith offers guidance!

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Did you SERIOUSLY just use Chrsitianity as a scapegoat ?! You just used the Bible which is full of unknown writers as a scapegoat ?! If you're so deluded as to put both at the same level then that's YOUR OWN PROBLEM ! Not to mention any theorist can claim the same about Quran using your logic .

Nope, I did not use christiantiy as a scapegoat. I used it as an example as to how a WHOLE nation can be wrong and misguided.

I did that so you would STOP saying that " You are wrong because 99% of muslims disagree with you, a whole nation cannot be wrong".
This isn't an argument and it is fallacious. It is actually called Argumentum ad populum meaning "argument from popularity fallacy".

Do you wanna see how an ENTIRE nation can be wrong? The Quran itself states that it will happen:

The Messenger will say, my Lord, my people have deserted this Qur’an. (25:30)

Side note: Notice that it states that the prophet's people have deserted the Quran. If there was another revelation besides the Quran that Muslims have to believe in, why would Allah neglect to mention it? Wouldn't this be the PERFECT place to put the other revelation the prophet allegedly received?

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There's a whole lot of charecteristics hypocrites share and they can't go unnoticed . Any of them deem someone unworthy of narrating even if he's truly a Muslim . Explanation ? Even a Muslim may have some charecteristics of hypocrites and still be a Muslim . That however is a dangerous sign and not an excuse to keep them . As for holding to "They make mistakes" , again , such a mistake wouldn't pass an entire nation unnoticed 

1.) Hypocrites CAN go unnoticed. Liars can also go unnoticed and it happens all the time. Evidence for this is the 698,000+ Hadiths that you believe are not authentic. They were either lies or mistakes. This gives evidence for my point.

2.) A mistake can go to an entire nation unnoticed. It has happened before--in Christianity for example. Again, this isn't an argument.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 03:03:29 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline Black Muslim

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« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2014, 04:12:47 AM »
Alright , let's dissect whatever needs to be dissected .

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There, I changed the word "hadith" to "statement" just to make you feel better. My argument remains.

Your argument remains meaningless . I'll make it short : Sunnah is the revelation of Allah . End of the story . When I believe in Quran and follow it , I am OBLIGED to obey it when it tells me to obey the prophet peace upon him .

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Hadiths. They follow every thing he said. Not only that if the prophet muhammad says dogs are haraam to keep in the house, then dogs are haram to keep in the house. I'm sure Allah really wanted us to not have dogs in our house, it seems very relevant to Islam, eh? Hadiths say things the prophet said and you follow it. IN fact, hadiths tell you that you should even dress and look like him.

None of your bloody business ! Islam isn't just some chants and talk of unconditional love and give your left cheek to who slaps you . It's a full way of life . If you reject the teachings of the prophet because you want a filthy animal like a dog in your house then that's your own bloody problem . And unlike you , when we don't understand something , WE ASK ! In your case , arrogance and worship of your so called "logic" forbid you to do so . If a narration doesn't narrate an order from the prophet or a teaching , then it narrates incidents and writes them down including his high morals and ethics . What does that mean ? It means the Islamic nation doesn't cherrypick its history .

And no one , I say NO ONE here deserted Quran except you . I can almost bet you don't read it at all except when you want to misquote and lie about it to support your ideologies . YET another cheap - pathetic - attempt to corrupt the other's picture . And you talk about that Homing nonsense ?!

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Again with the authority argument.

Again , your opponent is the noble Quran itself . If you have a problem with authority , you have a problem with the authority of Quran .

4:115 And whoever opposes the Messenger after guidance has become clear to him and follows other than the way of the believers - We will give him what he has taken and drive him into Hell, and evil it is as a destination.

A whole nation cannot be misguided . If you say it can , then your opponent isn't just that nation , the companions , and the prophet peace upon him , not at all , your opponent is the almighty himself . So take your Argumentum ad populum and shove it down the nearest toilet .

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You don't need so called 'scholars' to explain the Quran. The Quran said no such thing. God will explain the Quran, you seek to learn the Quran. Nowhere does it state follow scholars. Scholars have been wrong in the past, and they are wrong now.

And what deludes you that YOU are right in your explanations ? Here we are , every freaking nobody opens his/her mouth and rant nonsense following YOUR line of thought . These are the same people who say a woman can wear a bikini in public , these are the same who say one can follow Judaism or Christianity and go to heaven . Using your twisted logic , you have no right object . You keep ranting how God will explain Quran to you . As if Allah the almighty would talk to you personally and make revelations to you that he didn't to his prophet ! Exalted he is from what you describe ! That's one the dubmest and lamest excuses I've ever heard ! Any bloody person can explain things however he bloody wants with that !! That is why there is a need for people of knowledge . This is a basic common sense for any field of knowledge in life . I wouldn't bring an ironsmith to fix my TV , neither am I gonna bring a joiner to fix the kitchen sink . That said , we DEFINITELY won't let some unknown nobodies talk whatever they want about Quran and Sunnah .

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I could just site Quranist scholars to show you the opposite.

99.99% against 0.01% . A losing battle .

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But, you will continue to persist arrogantly... I know you will. This makes you a disbeliever and I would have a hard time calling you a Muslim at this point.

Unlike you , because I'm not a scholar or someone qualified , I do have a hard time calling you "Kafir" . Somone ignorant of anything of the sort would just rant whatever he wants however . So go ahead and call the majority of Muslims through the entire history as that , that's when I won't hesitate to say that your act is "Kufr" .

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Nope, I did not use christiantiy as a scapegoat. I used it as an example as to how a WHOLE nation can be wrong and misguided.

I don't fully understand the circumstances of corrupting the Bible . Quran said it is and that's it for me . Quran also said that our nation cannot agree on falsehood . Period .

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I think this is where you really showed your lack of arabic understanding.

WARNING : Take it back before a joke of yourself more than what you already are .

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Quranists try their best to take a holistic approach to the Quran and not attempt to understand a verse in isolation.

I'll take it as a joke . Both that you are called "Quranist" and that you take Quran as holy . And the following will show you why I take it as that .

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Some Quranists would say what he speaks in 53:3 is the same truth spoken in 51:23.

As said before , because you have no bases to return to , anyone can explain things however he wants . And here we see you saying "Some" ? So you're basically saying that you "think" . That's meaningless . And if the sign talks about Quran , then it talks about Sunnah as well . That's also a revelation wither from a linguistic point of view or a logical one . And this is for further reading :
http://fatwa.islamweb.net/fatwa/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=198037

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Also, the next verse 53:4 says that what he speaks is nothing but wahy - revelation. And wahy is defined in 6:19 as the Quran.

FALSE . The nineteeth sign of Al-an'am is as follows :

Say, "What thing is greatest in testimony?" Say, " Allah is witness between me and you. And this Qur'an was revealed to me that I may warn you thereby and whomever it reaches. Do you [truly] testify that with Allah there are other deities?" Say, "I will not testify [with you]." Say, "Indeed, He is but one God, and indeed, I am free of what you associate [with Him]."

It says that Quran is a revelation . It doesn't say there is no other revelation with it . Do you understand the joke now ?

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The words in 16:44 clearly state that the messenger can only make things clear to the people by means of what is revealed to him (Quran). This is also confirmed in 6:114 which states that the only source of law is the book.

Then why do you fail in writing the signs ? Or maybe you fear you'll be exposed ?

16:44 [We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.

6:114 [Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters.

Looking at the first or the second sign , you can't claim that it denies there is a revelation with Quran that explains it for people .

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If we read 16:44 and 3:164 on their own it may well appear that the messenger can fully explain the Quran to the people and that he is the teacher of the Quran, but what about when we read 55:1-2 which says that God is the teacher of the Quran?
Also, what about 75:19 where God is speaking to the messenger and tells him clearly that it is He (God) who will explain the Quran?

A failing attempt . You claim you explain Quran with Quran and that's a laughable lie . What about THIS sign ?

42:51 And it is not for any human being that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.

So in or out , the prophet peace upon him explains the noble Quran for people .

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The messenger was literally a walking Quran

And where did you bring that from ?

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If someone asks him how to do wudu, the prophet would recite the Quran and tell them exactly what it says without adding anything to the Quran--since the Quran is the only source of law

And where did you bring THAT from ? How could you know that he used to do this when someone asks him ? How could you know there was a man named Muhammad to begin with ? In or out , you'll have to admit that you need Sunnah to view history . And I would like to see you bringing the way Muslims perform it from Quran . Oh right , we are all doomed to hellfire because you said so .

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However, the messenger cannot guide anyone or guarantee that all people will understand the true message of the Quran. It is God, and God alone, who can guide the people and truly explain the message of the book to the ones who deserve the guidance.

And YOU are the one out of billions who deserves guidance ?

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The fact that 99.9% of all Muslims today are following a corrupt religion that has little to do with the Quran, and the fact that they are committing “shirk” (associating partners with God) by making the prophet a partner with God in everything they say or do and including his name along side the name of God in every worship practice (shahada, Salat, Hajj, etc), which is contrary to the Quranic command in 6:162 which states that all our worship practices must be dedicated to the name of God alone; all this confirms that despite their numerous scholars, Imams, interpreters and teachers, with all their volumes of 'tafseer' (interpretations/explanations), they have not really understood the simple message of the book. All their teachers could not really explain the principal message of the Quran to them which is to dedicate all our worship rituals and practices to the name of God alone (6:162) and to accept the Quran as the only source of law (6:114).

قبحك الله يا خسيس !

Then say it flat out . You follow a religion other than Islam so don't call yourself a Muslim ! It is finally revealed . We are no "brothers" . This is a clear fight between right and wrong , belief and disbelief ! Your insanity reached a level of claiming everyone except you and the likes are destined to hell . There is no word to explain this . Ignoranc was a thing , arrogance was a thing , but this , this madness , this outrageous madness , it leaves no room for doubt , you , are an enemy of Allah and his prophet . And I don't show a shred of holding back in battles against such enemies .

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Is Jinn=Bacteria? What is your opinion?
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2014, 01:00:53 PM »
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Your argument remains meaningless . I'll make it short : Sunnah is the revelation of Allah . End of the story . When I believe in Quran and follow it , I am OBLIGED to obey it when it tells me to obey the prophet peace upon him .

Where is your proof that sunnah is a revelation from Allah? None.

You have NOT made a counter argument against the verse that defeats the sunnah being a revelation of Allah. I will re-state. I ask that you prove me wrong--which you continuously fail to do.

Quran 45:6 "These are God's revelations (Quran) that We recite to you truthfully. In which statement other than God and His revelations (Quran) do they believe?"

THESE are God's revelation that gets RECITED to you. So in what statement other than God and his revelation (Quran) will you believe?

Does this verse leave any room for the sunnah or does it make it clear that the Quran is the only statement you are to believe in?

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If you reject the teachings of the prophet because you want a filthy animal like a dog in your house then that's your own bloody problem . And unlike you , when we don't understand something , WE ASK ! In your case , arrogance and worship of your so called "logic" forbid you to do so . If a narration doesn't narrate an order from the prophet or a teaching , then it narrates incidents and writes them down including his high morals and ethics . What does that mean ? It means the Islamic nation doesn't cherrypick its history .

And no one , I say NO ONE here deserted Quran except you . I can almost bet you don't read it at all except when you want to misquote and lie about it to support your ideologies . YET another cheap - pathetic - attempt to corrupt the other's picture . And you talk about that Homing nonsense ?!

They are NOT teachings of the prophet. The prophet is forbidden to teach anything besides the Quran. You have read the verses I present and made no counter-arguments. That is when we KNOW that you are the one failing to grasp Allah's message.   

I think it is over brother, You have lost. No arguments made, just more rants. I think there is a level of arrogance that you can meet where it is just hopeless for you. I'm truly sorry you are failing Allah's test.

I will ask again, present Quranic verses that validate the sunnah (another source of law/revelation). I know you won't because no such verses exist. Like I said, it is hopeless for you. You have 2 options:

1.) Leave your arrogance aside and accept Allah and the Quran
2.) Continue persisting arrogantly and await your humiliating punishment (just as 45:8)

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4:115 And whoever opposes the Messenger after guidance has become clear to him and follows other than the way of the believers - We will give him what he has taken and drive him into Hell, and evil it is as a destination.

A whole nation cannot be misguided . If you say it can , then your opponent isn't just that nation , the companions , and the prophet peace upon him , not at all , your opponent is the almighty himself . So take your Argumentum ad populum and shove it down the nearest toilet .

Let me ask you this, Who is opposing the messenger? You or me? The messenger never gave another source of law, because Allah said the only source is the Quran.

And a again a whole nation can be misguided. you are again making the argumentum ad populum fallacy. If you cannot accept logical fallacies and tell me to shove it down the toilet, then that when I know you are either too arrogant to accept the reality or remain irrational.

A fallacios argument does not give you any credit.

Secondly, a whole nation WILL be misguided as the Quran informs us:

The Messenger will say, my Lord, my people have deserted this Qur’an. (25:30)

As I had said before, it is hopeless for you. There is no way out of this, you have to face the reality that the sunnah is not Allah's revelation and the nation currently is misguided.

My opponent is that nation. That sick, twisted, corrupted nation that calls itself submitters to Allah. What a shame. Shame on you, shame on every sunni, shia and all the other cults. This nation you are following is NOT the ummah of the prophet.

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99.99% against 0.01% . A losing battle .

Argument from popularity fallacy.

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And what deludes you that YOU are right in your explanations ? Here we are , every freaking nobody opens his/her mouth and rant nonsense following YOUR line of thought . These are the same people who say a woman can wear a bikini in public , these are the same who say one can follow Judaism or Christianity and go to heaven . Using your twisted logic , you have no right object . You keep ranting how God will explain Quran to you . As if Allah the almighty would talk to you personally and make revelations to you that he didn't to his prophet ! Exalted he is from what you describe ! That's one the dubmest and lamest excuses I've ever heard ! Any bloody person can explain things however he bloody wants with that !! That is why there is a need for people of knowledge . This is a basic common sense for any field of knowledge in life . I wouldn't bring an ironsmith to fix my TV , neither am I gonna bring a joiner to fix the kitchen sink . That said , we DEFINITELY won't let some unknown nobodies talk whatever they want about Quran and Sunnah .

Twisted logic, I'm not committing logical fallacies and continue to commit them even after I know they were fallacies, pal.

Secondly, your underlined statement above means that you reject that Allah guides us? Really? Is that how low you can go? -->Especially when Allah said that HE will also explain the Quran? You rejecting Allah's words?

So your argument is that the prophet had to explain the Quran to everyone, even us. Well this argument falls flat on its face! Let me further show you how bad your argument is:

(Please please slowly read the entire thing-I expect a counter-argument for this!)

While it is correct to state that the messengers duty was not restricted to merely reciting the Qur’an to his people, as is evident by the words: "...He will give them the knowledge of the Book ..." (2:129), it is also an incontestable fact that the books of traditions that are upheld by varous sects and attributed to the messenger, do not contain the explanation of each and every verse of the Qur’an. What exists in those compilations are some ascribed paradoxical reports limited to certain verses only. No book of tradition contains the complete commentary and explanation of the Qur’an from Surah Al-Fatiha, the first chapter to Surah An-Naas, the last chapter, that it could attribute to the messenger of Allah.

This being the case, the question arises that how did the messenger confer the knowledge of the Book of Allah to his audience? And where can we find those explanations? The Qur’an provides us the adequate answer to these questions of extreme importance.

Allah informs us that His Book has been kept independent of all sorts of traditions for its exegesis, by indicating that the Qur’an is its own commentary.

The Qur'an is not like an ordinary book, such that most other books discuss a specific topic at one place and have their subjects compiled and bifurcated within specific chapters.

Unlike this, the Book of Allah has its topics spread out throughout itself within various chapters. For example, if we were to ascertain as to what Allah's Book says about the topic of divorce we find verses dealing with the subject of divorce in Surah Al-Baqara which is the second Surah (chapter) of the Qur'an, Surah Al Nisa the fourth Chapter , then in Surah Al Ahzaab the thirty third chapter and further in Sura At Tal'aaq which is the sixty fifth chapter of the Qur'an.

By compiling all the verses about the topic of divorce as discussed in all the locations of the Qur'an we come to know what the Book of Allah has to say about this subject. And we observe that each verse clarifies and explains the other. It is by this manner that Allah Himself has dealt with different subjects in His Book, i.e. by repeating topics in various chapters throughout the Qur'an. The manner of exegesis is <Tasreef ul Ayaat> or recurrence and repetition of subjects within the Qur’anic verses, and it is by this method that the Book of Allah deals with various topics and provides its own explanation. We are reminded:

<unzur kaifa nusarriful a_ya_ti la'allahum yafqahu_n>

"See how We repeat the verses that they may understand." (6:65)

<Wa laqad sarrafna_ lin na_si fi ha_zal qur'a_ni min kulli masal(in), fa aba_ aksarun na_si illa_ kufu_ra>


"And certainly We have repeated for mankind in this Quran, every kind of similitude, but the majority of mankind do not consent to aught but denying." (17:89)

Allah Himself has circulated topics within His Book, and what is unclear at one passage is made distinct by another verse in another passage within the Qur’an itself. One verse will throw light on the other. Furthermore we are informed that the messenger of Allah also explained the Qur’an by the Qur’an itself:

<Wa kaza_lika nusarriful a_ya_ti wa liyaqu_lu_ darasta wa linubayyinahu_ liqaumiy ya'lamu_n>

"And thus do We repeat the verses and that they may say: You have read; and that We may make it clear to a people who know." (6:108)

It is evident from the above that the messenger’s lectures on the Qur’an were based on <tasreef_ul_ayat>, i.e. recurrence of Ayat, to clarify topics within the Qur’an. The messenger gave Dars ul Qur-an, by this manner, and the Qur’an was clarified by the Qur’an itself. This is further supported in Surah Al-Furqan, where a certain objection of the unbelievers is identified:

<Wa qa_lal lazina kafaru_ lau la_ nuz zila alaihil qur a_nu jumlataw wa_hidah kaza_lika linusab bita bihi fu a_daka wa rat talna_hu tartila_Wa la_ yatu_naka bimasalin il la_ jina_ka bil haq qi wa ahsana tafsira>

"The unbelievers say: "Why is not the Qur'an revealed to him all at once? Thus (is it revealed gradually) that We may strengthen thy heart thereby and We have rehearsed it to thee in slow well-arranged stages gradually. And no example do they bring to thee but We bring to thee the truth and the best explanation." (25:32-33)

The above verses inform us about a matter of grave importance. To the objection of unbelievers as to why is not the Qur’an revealed all at once, it is stated that the Qur’an is revealed in stages due to the following reasons:

1.) So that the messengers heart may be strenghtened. This is confirmed when it is stated: "Thus (is it revealed gradually) that We may strengthen thy heart thereby and We have rehearsed it to thee in slow well-arranged stages gradually." Hence the messenger was encouraged and enjoined to be stead fast by the revelation of Qur’anic verses.
2.) So that the arguments that the unbelievers may bring forth should be answered sufficiently by ‘Haqq’, i.e. the Qur’anic truth. As it is stated: "And no example do they bring to thee but We bring to thee the truth.."
3.) The third reason for the gradual descent of the Qur’an is to provide <Ahsan_ul_Tafsir>, i.e. the best explanation and exegesis of Allah’s Book.

<Wa la_ yatu_naka bimasalin il la_ jina_ka bil haq qi wa ahsana tafsira>

"And no example do they bring to thee but We bring to thee the truth and the best ‘Tafsir’ (exegesis)" (25:33)

Thus Allah revealed verses which provided Tafsir of other verses themselves. What remained ambigous in one verse, its clarification and exegesis was provided by Allah Himself by the gradual descent of other verses of the Qur’an. Hence Allah provided the Tafsir of the Qur’an by the Qur’an itself, and did not make His Book dependent on any compilations of traditions for its exegesis. It is by this manner that Allah gave the Tafsir of His Book to the messenger and the messenger inturn conveyed to his audience. The messenger did not give any separate book of Tafsir to the Ummah as the Tafsir of the Qur’an which he imparted on the Ummah was contained inside the pages of the Qur’an itself.

While it is identified that the Qur’an explains its self by repetition of verses, we are also instructed to ponder and reflect on Allah’s Book, for the message of the Qur’an will be evident to those who will strive to comprehend its meaning and conduct research on it. It is mentioned that those who will use their faculties of understanding and engage in an inquiry into the meaning of the divine message, for them the Qur’anic verses will be rendered plain:


"Thus do We make the verses distinct for a people who reflect." (10:24)


"Indeed We have made the verses distinct for a people who will utilize their understanding." (6:98)

Along with stating the above, we are also advocated to ponder and reflect on the Book:

"A Book We have revealed to you abounding in good that they may ponder over its verses, and that those endowed with understanding may be mindful." (38:29)

Thus the injunction to reflect and ponder over the Book has been given for all generations, so that in the light of divine guidance they seek the solutions to the problems of their times. The meaning of the Qur’an will be made clear by the repetition of verses and likewise people are asked to use their abilities of reason and intellect to understand the Qur’an. The following verses shed further light in stating that the meaning of Allah’s Book will be evident by <Tasreef ul Ayat> and it is in this manner that Qur’an should be understood:

" See how We repeat the verses that they may understand." (6:65)

"See how We repeat the verses, yet they turn away (from the truth rendered by recurrence of Ayat)." (6:46)

Note: the word for 'repeat'  is also correctly translated as 'explain'. So if Allah explains the verses in the Quran through the Quran, is there really a need to follow the prophet's explanation of the Quran? All we need to do is read the Quran to understand it! We don't need another revelation to understand it.

It is Allah, who is the ‘Mufasir’ i.e commentator of the Qur’an, and the Tafsir of one verse was provided by the revelation of other verses which would throw light on the subject under discussion. Thus it is said:

"Ar-Rahmaan (The Beneficent God). It is He who teaches the Qur’an." (55:1-2)

Not only was the revelation, compilation and protection of the Book taken up by Allah himself, but also its explanation. As we are informed:

"Do not move your tongue with this (Qur'an) to make haste with it. Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it. Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation. Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it." (75:16-19)

Here Allah relieves the prophet from explaining the Quran and says the duty is on Allah.

Hence it is Allah who provides the Tafsir of His Book by <Tasreef ul Ayat>, that is, by repetition of verses.

I hope I made it clear to you.

In hopes of making it even more clear, I have one more verse you need to read:

"We know best what they say, and you are not one to compel them; therefore remind him by means of the Quran who fears My Promise." (50:45)

Thus Allah commands the messenger to admonish people by the Qur’an, and the messenger confirms himself that his mission is "Admonishing with the Qur’an", not any other book!

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cause I'm not a scholar or someone qualified , I do have a hard time calling you "Kafir" . Somone ignorant of anything of the sort would just rant whatever he wants however . So go ahead and call the majority of Muslims through the entire history as that , that's when I won't hesitate to say that your act is "Kufr" .

I know you do brother, it is because I am following the Quran. I have no issue with calling anyone a kaffir if they reject even ONE quranic verse.

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FALSE . The nineteeth sign of Al-an'am is as follows :

Say, "What thing is greatest in testimony?" Say, " Allah is witness between me and you. And this Qur'an was revealed to me that I may warn you thereby and whomever it reaches. Do you [truly] testify that with Allah there are other deities?" Say, "I will not testify [with you]." Say, "Indeed, He is but one God, and indeed, I am free of what you associate [with Him]."

It says that Quran is a revelation . It doesn't say there is no other revelation with it . Do you understand the joke now ?

Aha! The whay is defined as the Quran! Not the sunnah! What is the wahy? the Quran. Why would Allah neglect to mention the sunnah if we were to follow it?  In fact, WHERE in the Quran did Allah mention this alleged other source of revelation/law besides the Quran?

Plus did you forget about the other verses that state that the Quran is fully detailed, and that we are only to follow THESE verses??

So back to my argument:

'Also, the next verse 53:4 says that what he speaks is nothing but wahy - revelation. And wahy is defined in 6:19 as the Quran."

Is wahy defined anywhere in the Quran as the sunnah or just as the Quran? Wahy is defined as the Quran.  Especially when the Quran is the only source of law as defined in 6:114 and 45:6?

The wahy that the prophet received is the Quran. did the Quran say there is another wahy?? We both know it didn't. Wahy is therefore defined as the Quran.

The messenger of Allah is ordered to deliver what has been revealed on him. . Now what are those divine teachings and laws that are revealed on the messenger? The following verses clarify as to what consists of "what has been revealed to you".

"And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit." (16:89)

Thus it is the Book of Allah which contains the clarity for all matters requiring guidance, that has been revealed on the messenger. In Surah An-Nisa, the divine teaching received by the messenger is again identified as:

"Surely We have revealed the Book to you with the truth that you may judge between people by means of that which Allah has shown you; and be not an advocate on behalf of the treacherous." (4:105)

Once again it is the book of Allah which has been identified as the divine teaching which has been bestowed upon the messenger and through which the messenger himself is to judge people.

"And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you;" (5:48)

It is confirmed that the messenger received the Book of Allah and he is to govern among people by Allah’s Book and he cannot deviate the slightest bit from the Qur’an. Now it has been confirmed by the above and many other verses in the Qur’an that the messenger has received the Book of Allah as divine teaching. Now what is that teaching that the messenger is to pass on to people, through which they are admonished by him? What is this book?

So what is this book? In 6:19, we learn it is the Quran.

"Allah is witness between you and me; and this Quran has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches." (6:19)

The book, the revelation that the prophet Muhammad received is the QURAN.

In all these instances, Allah did not mention another revelation besides the Quran (the book). So HOW can you possibly assert that there is another revelation the prophet received besides the Quran!!! The only wahy is therefore the Quran, the book.

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Then why do you fail in writing the signs ? Or maybe you fear you'll be exposed ?

16:44 [We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.

6:114 [Say], "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters.

Looking at the first or the second sign , you can't claim that it denies there is a revelation with Quran that explains it for people .


There is NO revelation with the Quran that explains it for people. What there is is the prophet making evident/clear the the people that the Quran was sent down to them and he would preach the Quran through ONLY the Quran. He would not add anything to the book that is fully detailed and the ONLY source of law.

The prophet explained to the people what the Quran wants them to do. Let me give you an example.

A man goes to the prophet and asks him how to do wudu for Salat, so the prophet would show him that by reading 5:6 to him, so the prophet SHOWED him what the Quran says, this is the meaning of 16:44 .... The prophet did not guide the man, for if the man does not accept the Quran there is nothing the prophet can do, he cannot guide anyone, he can only show them what the Quran tells them to do. All the prophet did was teach the man what the Quran requires him to do.

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A failing attempt . You claim you explain Quran with Quran and that's a laughable lie . What about THIS sign ?

42:51 And it is not for any human being that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.

So in or out , the prophet peace upon him explains the noble Quran for people .

Did I reject that the prophet explains the noble Quran for people? I said the prophet and Allah had that role.

 I stated that the prophet explains the Quran and DOES NOT add anything to the Quran. He does not make a sunnah or a way of life or other commandments other than the Quran--this is because the Quran is the only source of law.

Secondly, if you look at that verse you stated--the messenger is not the only mechanism in which Allah can explain the Quran because another mechanism is using a partition.

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If someone asks him how to do wudu, the prophet would recite the Quran and tell them exactly what it says without adding anything to the Quran--since the Quran is the only source of law

And where did you bring THAT from ? How could you know that he used to do this when someone asks him ? How could you know there was a man named Muhammad to begin with ? In or out , you'll have to admit that you need Sunnah to view history . And I would like to see you bringing the way Muslims perform it from Quran . Oh right , we are all doomed to hellfire because you said so .

The Quran. The prophet can not add his own teaching to the Quran. That means he cannot add more steps to the wudu. He can only show them the steps in the Quran. This of course, rejects the sunnah.

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Then say it flat out . You follow a religion other than Islam so don't call yourself a Muslim ! It is finally revealed . We are no "brothers" . This is a clear fight between right and wrong , belief and disbelief ! Your insanity reached a level of claiming everyone except you and the likes are destined to hell . There is no word to explain this . Ignoranc was a thing , arrogance was a thing , but this , this madness , this outrageous madness , it leaves no room for doubt , you , are an enemy of Allah and his prophet . And I don't show a shred of holding back in battles against such enemies .

Am I the one claiming it, or is Allah almighty telling you that the nation of Islam will be all wrong and most of them will be destined to a punishment.

The Messenger will say, my Lord, my people have deserted this Qur’an. (25:30)

It is a clear fight between right and wrong. Absolutely. You just have realize who is wrong here. Your corrupted tradition that the prophet received another source of law besdies the Quran (which contradicts the Quran).

Now I would support you as a Muslim if you stated that:

1.) The prophet did not add anything to the Quran when explaining it--he just showed people what the Quran requires them to do
2.) The ONLY source of law is the Quran and both the prophet and Allah had a duty in explaining it

Once you support these 2 points, you have to reject the Sunnah (the other source of law besides the Quran)--which means you have to reject all the extra laws that are not found in the Quran.

Once you support these 2 points, you become a Muslim.

It is important that you take these Quranic words seriously brother, for your own soul,
do not turn a blind eye to the words of God in the Quran.
 
Why is it so difficult to believe all the words of God which I showed you?
 
Do you want to be sorry on Judgement day and say I wish I did not let my ego blind me from the truth?
 
I am here to help you as a brother and a friend, but I cannot do so unless you decide to believe the Quran.

I hope you find yourself on the right path.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 02:41:29 PM by mclinkin94 »

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Re: Is Jinn=Bacteria? What is your opinion?
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2014, 07:18:31 AM »
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Where is your proof that sunnah is a revelation from Allah? None.

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{يـا أيـها الذين آمـنوا أطيعوا الله وأطيعوا الرسول ولا تبطلوا أعمالكم}
{من يطع الرسول فقد أطاع الله ومن تولى فما أرسلناك عليهم حفيظاً}
{وما آتاكم الرسول فخذوه وما نهاكم عنه فانتهوا واتقوا الله إن الله شديد العقاب}
{وما كان لمؤمن ولا مؤمنة إذا قضى الله ورسوله أمراً أن يكون لهم الخيرة من أمرهم ومن يعص الله ورسوله فقد ضل ضلالاً مبينا}
{فلا وربك لا يؤمنون حتى يحكموك فيما شجر بينهم ثم لا يجدوا في أنفسهم حرجا مما قضيت ويسلموا تسليماً}
{إنما كان قول المؤمنين إذا دعوا إلى الله ورسوله ليحكم بينهم أن يقولوا سمعنا وأطعنا وأولئك هم المفلحون}
{وأنزلنا إليك الذكر لتبين للناس ما نزل إليهم ولعلهم يتفكرون}
{وما أنزلنا عليك الكتاب إلا لتبين لهم الذي اختلفوا فيه وهدى ورحمة لقوم يؤمنون}
{لقد مَنَّ الله على المؤمنين إذ بعث فيهم رسولاً من أنفسهم يتلو عليهم آياته ويزكيهم ويعلمهم الكتاب والحكمة وإن كانوا من قبل لفي ضلال مبين}

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Quran 45:6 "These are God's revelations (Quran) that We recite to you truthfully. In which statement other than God and His revelations (Quran) do they believe?"
THESE are God's revelation that gets RECITED to you. So in what statement other than God and his revelation (Quran) will you believe?
Does this verse leave any room for the sunnah or does it make it clear that the Quran is the only statement you are to believe in?

I keep answering it day in day out but you seem to lack common sense and the basic understanding of BOTH Arabic and English . Indeed , we don't believe in anything after the signs and revelations of Allah . That includes Sunnah as it is a revelation of Allah as all these previous signs say clear as day . The prophet peace upon him doesn't innovate of his own in religion . That's your delusion .

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I think it is over brother, You have lost.

So you're that eager to run away with your tail between your legs ? And again , I am no brother of an enemy of Islam like you . You miserable low life form went as low as to deem the entirety of the Islamic nation disbelievers destined to hell except the great you who will go to heaven . You've bee saying it about me all the time and I beared with it . But you crossed the line . This is war . There is no room for compromise or sweet talk .

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1.) Leave your arrogance aside and accept Allah and the Quran
2.) Continue persisting arrogantly and await your humiliating punishment

83:34 So Today those who believed are laughing at the disbelievers, 35 On adorned couches, observing. 36 Have the disbelievers [not] been rewarded [this Day] for what they used to do?

We will see who laughs linckin . And I swear it won't be you with your current twisted mentality .

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Secondly, a whole nation WILL be misguided

So you'd go as low as to accuse Allah of contradiction . It is very SICKENING when I see the likes of you write signs they don't understand just to justify their blasphemy . If you had the slightest bet of common sense , you wouldn't have dared make such a ridiculous statement . Let's see the signs in their context :

25:30 And the Messenger has said, "O my Lord, indeed my people have taken this Qur'an as [a thing] abandoned." 31 And thus have We made for every prophet an enemy from among the criminals. But sufficient is your Lord as a guide and a helper. 32 And those who disbelieve say, "Why was the Qur'an not revealed to him all at once?" Thus [it is] that We may strengthen thereby your heart. And We have spaced it distinctly. 33 And they do not come to you with an argument except that We bring you the truth and the best explanation.

So who are those people ? Considering that the verb is in the past tense , it talks about something that already happened while the prophet was delivering the message and not your ill fantasies . The people here are the pagans of Makkah , Quraish , his people . That's how sane people understand the sign , and that's how scholars understand the sign :
http://www.alro7.net/ayaq.php?sourid=25&aya=30

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Secondly, your underlined statement above means that you reject that Allah guides us? Really? Is that how low you can go? -->Especially when Allah said that HE will also explain the Quran? You rejecting Allah's words?

What I'm saying you miserable low life is that your statment - in that premetive view - contradicts itself . Using your statment , I can say people are guided as they follow the way of the prophet . Keep deluding yourself that you're guided and all else will go to hell . You are nothing close to guidance , you and the likes are POISON to the nation . A vile virus that needs to be exterminated . You hold absolutely no respect to Islam and its teachings . You take your desires as Gods you worship . Not to mention your utmost stupidity , retarded logic , and folligh statements contradicting each other . You take that puny brain of yours as holy think you understand everything . While Allah says he will explain Quran , every sane person can see that it is through the prophet peace upon him in spite of you and the likes of you . On the other hand , you're so twisted as to think you recieve revelations that the prophet didn't . You think you're the only one who understands among the entirety of humanity . When you make a blasphemous statement such as that Allah explains Quran especially to you , you have to bring evidence from Quran or Sunnah . And you will always fail miserably with any of them . The almighty Allah is far greater beyond imaginable to talk with such a low life like you . He sent a prophet with guidance and truth for them to reign over all else in spite of disbelievers and in spite of you . That prophet is the one whom Allah explains the noble Quran through , not a nobody like you . Your opponent is Allah . And while you don't equal the shoes of a scholar , there is no room for comparison between you and the almighty , not that there is between him and anything else at all . I'm not the one rejecting his words , YOU ARE .

So enough with the rant and long posts . I'll finish it directly .

1 - Quran orders us to obey the messenger and what he teaches as they are revelations from Allah himself in numerous places throughout the noble book . If you try to make a ridiculous attemot such as claiming Quran is complete and doesn't need anything else to explain it in such a premetive way of understanding then you are accusing Allah of contradicting and that's where I will immediately say you are a vile "Kafir" flat out . It IS complete when it tells us to obey the messenger . If you don't believe in that then don't dare call yourself a Muslim .

2 - You have absolutely no basis to believe in Quran using your rotten logic . You can't deny the possibility that it was corrupted or altered . You can't prove that a man named Muhammad existed . And if you bring that Da Vinci code garbage again I'll throw it immideately with the rest of garbage . This describes you as a blind believer . You don't have any logical reasons to believe in Islam . Following this rotten line of thinking you take leads us to deny history in its entirety .

3 - You rejectors are the most ignorant of Quran . You have no basis for your acrobatic explanations . You rant about how you're the only ones who understand Islam . While the fact is you can't explain a thing with Quran alone . You contradict the book itself ! You can't explain how to pray . You can't explain how to perform pilgrimage . You can't explain a thing . Whenever you are faced with this you used your personal opinions and liking .

I'm seriously getting sick and tired of this . So let's make it short . The signs ordering to follow the prophet and in turn tell that there is a nother kind of revelation are numerous . If you deny that , then YOU are the one being an apostate .