Author Topic: Refuting WikiIslam: Corruption of Previous Scriptures (Torah/Gospel)  (Read 8071 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Their article can be found here: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Corruption_of_Previous_Scriptures_(Qur%27an_2:79)

They claim that the Quran does not charge the people of the book with corrupting their scriptures. I will post their main points that make up a summary of the Article and I will refute each point in each successive post.

Their points are:

  • The Qur'an never charges that the Jews and Christians have physically corrupted their scriptures. It states that they have 'changed words from their right places/context (with their mouths)' and 'concealed parts of the message given to them'.
  • The Qur'an claims to verify the books that they have with them. This precludes the possibility that the People of the Book had corrupted scriptures in their possession at the time of Muhammad. The language used in the Qur'an confirms that the whole texts were intact and 'verified' by the Qur'an. Since we have Biblical texts that pre-date Islam, that match what we have today, we know that today's scriptures are the same as they were in and before Muhammad's time.
  • We know that Allah is 'verifying' both the Taurat and Injil; telling Christians and Jews to check their specific scriptures to 'judge by what Allah has revealed.'
  • Both the Jews and Christians were literate peoples who knew their scriptures.
  • Qur'an 2:79 when read in context clearly states that the illiterate people were writing the book 'with their own hands' and claiming it was from Allah. Since we know the people of the Book were literate, these verses are not referring to them.
  • Consider the evidence: The Qur'an never says the physical scriptures of the previous revelations are corrupt (since we have precluded 2:79). If the previous scriptures are not corrupt, what do we do if the Qur'an contradicts the message of the Bible?

In the next several posts, I will go and refute each point.


***I just wanted to make a quick laugh at point #5 that the wiki-Islam article makes. If you haven't noticed, it is claiming that illiterate or unlearned people can write a book with their own hands! LOL! Seems like a very valid interpretation of the Quran  :P***
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 10:28:33 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
This is the first line of refuting each point that the Wiki-Islam article makes. It is important to point out here that from what I have observed, Wiki-Islam makes very hasty attempts at attacking Islam. I find it shameful the level of dishonestly and ignorance such a website has. Anyway, let's start with their first point:

1.) The Qur'an never charges that the Jews and Christians have physically corrupted their scriptures. It states that they have 'changed words from their right places/context (with their mouths)' and 'concealed parts of the message given to them'.

The Quran has charged the Jews and Christians to have physically corrupted their scriptures.

[Quran 2:75] Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?

Few verses later:

[Quran 2:79] So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

Wiki Islam argues that Quran 2:79 is speaking of the illiterate people, not the Jews/Christians. I will show that this is not the correct interpretation (in fact it is an invalid interpretation) when I refute point 5 in my next posts.

It is funny that Wiki Islam knows that if QUran 2:79 is interpreted in the manner it should be, it would completely contradict their whole point. Point 1 that they made up partly relies on the correct interpretation of Quran 2:79. That is why they felt like they had to write a whole article showing a different interpretation of Quran 2:79. Again, when I post refuting point 5, the correct interpretation of Quran 2:79 will be shown and their interpretation will be shown to be invalid.

I also wanted to discuss the part when wikiIslam states: " It states that they have 'changed words from their right places/context (with their mouths)' and 'concealed parts of the message given to them"

While it is true that many verses state that they have changed words out of context and hid parts of the message:

1.) Quran 2:75-79 is clear that they inserted things to the scripture.
2.) The Quran is clear that they were changing words out of context which changes the meaning of the scripture. How does wikiIslam think this isn't corruption. We all know a case in which reading something out of context changes the whole meaning of the sentence. In fact, in philosophy there if a logical fallacy known as quoting out of context. If you quote out of context you really do change the meaning. We all know of such examples.
3.) The Quran says they conceal parts of their scripture. Hiding parts of the message is not corruption? They are literally tampering with their books.

So all in all, the Quran asserts that the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians): Concealed parts of their scripture/message from Allah, distorted the meaning of the scripture by quoting out of context AND inserted lies into their scripture. If these do not mean the Jews corrupted their scripture, what does?

I have also heard a case when the opposition states: "the verse says a party of the Jews, not all the Jews corrupted the scripture--so this means that the scripture is not corrupted because only a few Jews corrupted the scripture". Well obviously not every single Jew corrupted the scripture. All it takes is a few literate Jews who have authority to corrupt the scripture to completely perverse the scripture. It is also well known that the Torah was orally transmitted and written down by scribes. So the corrupted oral transmission would have gotten on paper. In fact, we don't have the Torah (the original book) that Moses received. In fact historically, that is exactly what happened. IN the time of Jesus, there were the scribes and pharisees and they were the ONLY people who were literate and had access to the scripture. They only made up a small portion of the Jews and they have the potential to corrupt the scripture, since they were the authorities and the keepers of the book. So this is an example as to how only a small portion or party of the Jews can completely corrupt the entire scripture.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 10:28:06 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
2.) The Qur'an claims to verify the books that they have with them. This precludes the possibility that the People of the Book had corrupted scriptures in their possession at the time of Muhammad. The language used in the Qur'an confirms that the whole texts were intact and 'verified' by the Qur'an. Since we have Biblical texts that pre-date Islam, that match what we have today, we know that today's scriptures are the same as they were in and before Muhammad's time.

The conclusion don't follow from the premises in that argument. When you corrupt a book, you still have the book and you still have fragments of the message. So the Quran came to confirm the original message.  If there were differences in the Quran and the book they have, then the Quran did NOT confirm that aspect of the book.

When you confirm something, you prove it to be valid or true. So the Quran came to confirm the books they had with them. One is pressed with the question, If the book they had with them was perfect and not corrupted, then why did the Quran need to confirm them?

Here is an analogy: I wrote a book that got partially corrupted and parts of the message changed. Now, I have to write another book confirming the old book I wrote and showing this old book was authored by me.  This does not mean that I will confirm everything in the old book, but rather, I would confirm the things that I wrote and not confirm the corruptions. Overall, the old book (despite its corruptions) will be shown to have been mine because of the same style of writing, the same basic message, the same stories, the same personality features of the author reflected etc. etc. A few differences in the old book does not at all show that it wasn't originally authored by me. This new book I wrote had to confirm or verify the truthful aspects of the old book and to show it was authored by me.

It is obvious that the Quran needed to confirm the book they have with them so that they could see that parts of the books they have are true. Even though the books are corrupted, they contain many truths and the basic message of Allah (worship none but Allah).

What is confirmed in the Torah? Many stories have been confirmed in the Torah (Moses, Abraham, etc.), many ancient (obsolete) laws have been confirmed to have existed in the Torah, the BASIC and MOST IMPORTANT part of the Torah has been confirmed in the Quran--To worship none but Allah!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 02:40:28 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
3.) We know that Allah is 'verifying' both the Taurat and Injil; telling Christians and Jews to check their specific scriptures to 'judge by what Allah has revealed.'

Again, the conclusion does not follow from the premises. Even when a book is corrupted, it does not mean that the entire message was corrupted. So telling the Jews to check their scriptures does not in any way imply that their scriptures are 100% accurate.

Here is an analogy: Let's say that I write a book and it has been corrupted, but the corruption did not change the basic message. Then I write a new book and I say, refer to the old book I wrote (even if it is corrupted) and see that the message is the same and from me. There are traces of my origional message in the old book.

Believe it or not, the current Torah shares many similarities and agreements with the Quran. When you read the Torah, you see the basic message is the same and there isn't much conflict between the Torah and the Quran. Here is an example as to how you can check specific scriptures to judge by what Allah has revealed:

"And when Jesus the Son of Mary said, O children of Israel, verily I am the Apostle of God sent unto you, confirming the law which was delivered before me, and bringing good tidings of an Apostle who shall come after me, and whose name shall be Ahmed. And when he produced unto them evident miracles, they said, this is manifest sorcery.  (The Noble Quran, 61:6)"

In this verse, Jesus is confirming an old prophesy in the bible that states an apostle will come and his name will be Ahmed. The word Ahmed means: Praised. We find this in the torah.

Song of Songs 5:16 His mouth is most sweet; yea, he is altogether lovely (mohamadim). This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.'

Notice the subtle difference between he is lovely and he is praised. Indeed a lovely person is praised and a praised person is lovely.

For more on this please go to:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/predict.htm

And watch the set of videos starting with this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYf1j5Duhns&index=11&list=PL809E3E8B55FFE2AA

So as you can see, even if a book is corrupted it still has some truth and that truth is enough to "judge by what Allah has revealed".  MANY more examples can be given.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 02:38:41 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
4.) Both the Jews and Christians were literate peoples who knew their scriptures

Not all of them.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2014, 11:24:50 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
5.) Qur'an 2:79 when read in context clearly states that the illiterate people were writing the book 'with their own hands' and claiming it was from Allah. Since we know the people of the Book were literate, these verses are not referring to them.

This is the most important point to be discussed! In this post, I will give an exegesis of Quran 2:79 and present the correct translation of such a verse and show how wiki-Islam's interpretation is invalid.

First, not all the people of the book were literate. Only a party of them were. Nowhere in the Quran does it declare that the people of the book were all literate.

Please read the context of Quran 2:79 very carefully as if you don't, you won't understand why Wiki-Islam's interpretation is false.

[Quran 2:75] Do you covet, that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?

[Quran 2:76] And when they meet those who believe, they say, "We have believed"; but when they are alone with one another, they say, "Do you talk to them about what Allah has revealed to you so they can argue with you about it before your Lord?" Then will you not reason?

[Quran 2:77] But do they not know that Allah knows what they conceal and what they declare?

[Quran 2:78] And among them are unlettered ones who do not know the Scripture except in wishful thinking, but they are only assuming.

[Quran 2:79] So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.


WikiIslam asserts that since Quran 2:78 is immediately before Quran 2:79, that Quran 2:79 is only referring to the people in Quran 2:78 (illiterates) and not the actual jews who distort the scripture in 2:75 (several verses before 2:79). This methodology of interpretation is absolutely invalid! When you read a paragraph, you don't only read the sentence before the thing you are trying to interpret, you read the full paragraph. You must read the beginning of this section of chapter 2 (verses 75).

 It is important to note that Quran 2:76-79 are continuations OF Quran 2:75 which states the Jews distort their scriptures. When something is a continuation of a sentence, then it is part of the context.

Let me paraphrase what the Quran is saying:

"A party of the Jews used to distort the Torah after knowing it. And among these Jews that distort the Torah after knowing it, there are the illiterates who do not know the book who only follow their desires and conjectures about the book. So woe to those who write the book with their own hands and say this is from "Allah".

As you can see the last sentence in my paraphrase includes the first sentence! You don't just interpret that last sentence and say, "oh it is only referring to the illiterates".

In fact, it must follow from a rational interpretation of these verses that the Quran is referring to the Jews that distort to Torah and not the illiterates. The illiterates were put there to show that among those who distort the Torah, are these people who just follow their desires/conjecture. Then it says woe to those who fabricate the book with their own hands.

What wiki-Islam states is that the illiterates wrote the book with their own hands. This is where I facepalmed myself.  How could an illiterate person make additions to the book with his own hands if he cannot read or write! hello?

Wiki-Islam also states that it is not the Jews who write the book with their own hands, it is the illiterates. EVEN IF this was the case (which it is not), the Quran says they changed THE book, not A book. It is a definite article meaning it is referring to a specific book.  What is THE book the Quran is talking about? The Torah (as Quran 2:75/context states). Therefore, even with Wiki-Islam's incorrect interpretation, the Torah still gets corrupted and gets lies inserted in it...

Wiki Islam's interpretation is invalid because:
1.) Illiterate people cannot write a book with their own hands (duh!)
2.) The verse before 2:79 states that the illiterate people do not know the book--if they do not know the book, how could they write or add-on to the book they don't know?
3.) Quran 2:75 (few verses before) is speaking about the Jews and the Christians distorting their books
4.) Quran 2:78 states that AMONG the Jews who distort the book, there are illiterates who follow their own conjecture of the book and hearsay. So this verse is a continuation of 2:75 (which states that the Jews were distorting the book).
5.) Quran 2:79 then states, So woe to those who write the book with their own hands and say it is from Allah. Quran 2:78 is a continuation of Quran 2:75-- and thus Quran 2:79 is referring to the Jews that distort the book, not the illiterate ones (see the exegesis above).


So as you can see Wiki-Islam failed to read the whole context of this verse (beginning from Quran 2:75) and failed to use their reason. This could have been either an honest mistake or some serious deliberate misinterpretation.

What is very funny is that even under Wiki-Islam's interpretation, the Torah still gets corrupted as Quran 2:79 states: "THE" book, not, "a" book. Therefore, the Quran wanted to make it clear that the book (Torah) got corrupted. So Wiki-Islam cannot hide behind this fact. If the Quran wanted to say that there were people (besides the people of the scripture) who wrote lies in another book about Allah, the Quran would NOT say "the" book as "the" refers to the Torah as the context makes clear. Rather the Quran would say "Woe to those who write 'a' book and claim it is from Allah.

Now what about the gospel? Well, is it simple. The Gospel we have today is not the gospel that was given to Jesus. The Quran states Jesus was given the Gospel--the gospel we have to day was not given to Jesus, it was a commentary on Jesus' life by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 02:31:08 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
6.) Consider the evidence: The Qur'an never says the physical scriptures of the previous revelations are corrupt (since we have precluded 2:79). If the previous scriptures are not corrupt, what do we do if the Qur'an contradicts the message of the Bible?

As we have seen, the Quran clearly states that previous scriptures have been tampered with. Quran 2:79's correct interpretation was shown. There is always a correct interpretation and an incorrect interpretation. This is especially true in science, when you have a body of evidence--many people can make incorrect interpretations. There is always one true interpretation. The true interpretation should be shown to be true by evidence and the incorrect interpretation should be ruled out. As you have seen in my previous post, Wiki-Islam's interpretation of QUran 2:79 is fraudulent.

Let me give an example of how Allah indirectly informs us the scriptures are corrupted:

[Quran 5:41] O Messenger, let them not grieve you who hasten into disbelief of those who say, "We believe" with their mouths, but their hearts believe not, and from among the Jews. [They are] avid listeners to falsehood, listening to another people who have not come to you. They distort words beyond their [proper] usages, saying "If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware." But he for whom Allah intends fitnah - never will you possess [power to do] for him a thing against Allah . Those are the ones for whom Allah does not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment.

Take a look at the above verse. It says that the Jews are listeners of falsehood and that falsehood comes from distorting words beyond their usages. Then Allah says they are disgraced and impure. If their corruptions were small and insignificant, would Allah really go as far as say they are disgraced and have a great punishment? The only rational conclusion is to assert that the corruption of the Jews’s scripture was significant! In fact, it was so significant that Allah (the most merciful) will given them a severe punishment. When a merciful yet just person gives you a punishment, you know what you did must have been especially significant.

Offline shabeer_hassan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Refuting WikiIslam: Corruption of Previous Scriptures (Torah/Gospel)
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2014, 10:56:35 AM »
THANK U  mclinkin94:

People never follow the Torah:

62: 5. The likeness of those who were entrusted with the (obligation of the) Taurât (Torah) (i.e. to obey its commandments and to practise its legal laws), but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is as the likeness of a donkey who carries huge burdens of books (but understands nothing from them). How bad is the example (or the likeness) of people who deny the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allâh. And Allâh guides not the people who are Zâlimûn (polytheists, wrong-doers, disbelievers, etc.).
About Jew/Christ:
9:31. They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allâh (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allâh), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) to worship none but One Ilâh (God - Allâh) Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory be to Him, (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)."
3: 78. And verily, among them is a party who distort the Book with their tongues (as they read), so that you may think it is from the Book, but it is not from the Book, and they say: "This is from Allâh," but it is not from Allâh; and they speak a lie against Allâh while they know it.
5: 64. The Jews say: "Allâh's Hand is tied up (i.e. He does not give and spend of His Bounty)." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for what they uttered. Nay, both His Hands are widely outstretched. He spends (of His Bounty) as He wills. Verily, the Revelation that has come to you from Allâh increases in most of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. We have put enmity and hatred amongst them till the Day of Resurrection. Every time they kindled the fire of war, Allâh extinguished it; and they (ever) strive to make mischief on earth. And Allâh does not like the Mufsidûn (mischief¬makers).
65. And if only the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) had believed (in Muhammad SAW) and warded off evil (sin, ascribing partners to Allâh) and had become Al¬Muttaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2) We would indeed have blotted out their sins and admitted them to Gardens of pleasure (in Paradise).
2: 79. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allâh," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby.
15: 9. Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur'ân) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).
98: 1. Those who disbelieve from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and among Al-Mushrikûn, were not going to leave (their disbelief) until there came to them clear evidence.
2. A Messenger (Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) from Allâh, reciting (the Qur'ân) purified pages [purified from Al-Bâtil (falsehood, etc.)].
3. Containing correct and straight laws from Allâh.
5. And they were commanded not, but that they should worship Allâh, and worship none but Him Alone (abstaining from ascribing partners to Him), and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât) and give Zakât: and that is the right religion.
6. Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islâm, the Qur'ân and Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikûn will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.
Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 8 :: Hadith 427
Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 8 :: Hadith 428
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "May Allah's curse be on the Jews for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets."
Bukhari :: Book 6 :: Volume 60 :: Hadith 157
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "May Allah curse the Jews! When Allah forbade them to eat the fat of animals, they melted it and sold it, and utilized its price! "

Following Jew/Christ way prohibited:
42: 15. So unto this (religion of Islâm, alone and this Qur'ân) then invite (people) (O Muhammad SAW), and Istaqim [(i.e. stand firm and straight on Islâmic Monotheism by performing all that is ordained by Allâh (good deeds, etc.), and by abstaining from all that is forbidden by Allâh (sins and evil deeds, etc.)], as you are commanded, and follow not their desires but say: "I believe in whatsoever Allâh has sent down of the Book [all the holy Books, this Qur'ân and the Books of the old from the Taurât (Torah), or the Injeel (Gospel) or the Pages of Ibrâhim (Abraham)]
Bukhari :: Book 3 :: Volume 36 :: Hadith 468 , 469,471
Muslim :: Book 34 : Hadith 6448
Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 92 :: Hadith 422, 21
Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 92 :: Hadith 460
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The people of the Book used to read the Torah in Hebrew and then explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. Allah's Apostle said (to the Muslims). "Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelieve them, but say, 'We believe in Allah and whatever is revealed to us, and whatever is revealed to you.' "
Jew /Christ make their prophet place of worship:
Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 56 :: Hadith 660
Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 56 :: Hadith 662
Jew /Christ change their scripture, Quran only being divine:
Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 92 :: Hadith 461
Bukhari :: Book 3 :: Volume 48 :: Hadith 850
People of scripture avoid one part of the scripture:
Bukhari :: Book 5 :: Volume 58 :: Hadith 281
graves of their prophets not as places of worship
Bukhari :: Book 7 :: Volume 72 :: Hadith 706