Author Topic: What would happen to religion without a book  (Read 10463 times)

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Offline JesusisGod

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What would happen to religion without a book
« on: July 16, 2014, 11:31:03 PM »
This is a hypothetical question, but what do you think would happen to the Muslim faith if the Quran was completely destroyed. I'm not saying this is what i want or what will happen, but I'm curious to see what some body of this faith would do? ( i'm aware that Muhammad is the last prophet so if his message was from God, God would not let this happen, and that Gods words cannot be changed or broken this is a hypothetical question) How would you relate to others? what would be the message you preach, and on what grounds would you defend what you teach? To what would you appeal for authority on some of the finer points of your religion? without a mosque and a Quran would you even be a Muslim? How could you be convinced of the teachings found in the Quran, by a Muslim, if the book had ceased to be?

Offline submit

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Re: What would happen to religion without a book
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2014, 03:29:04 AM »
we have sets of prophets that were sent to sets of nations to give prophecy and sets of rules on how man kind should live on earth.  this happened in the past.
so we know that message from God will still remain as long as the followers adhere to it.

the Quran was revealed by Holy Spirit that descend down onto prophet . Then prophet preach it to his followers, have scribes write verses down and have his followers memorizing the verse. Say shall Quran cease to exist, all the memorizers can still gather together and reinstate a written copy of Quran.

but lets say there is a generation where Quran no longer exist say burnt or destroyed, all memorizers of Quran died. Not a single person on earth knew the content of Quran.  This will be an era where Muslims can be said close to extinction. And its just a matter of time 'the hour' shall be called upon. 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 03:30:55 AM by submit »

Offline JesusisGod

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Re: What would happen to religion without a book
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2014, 07:13:48 PM »
I know you don't know your book perfectly, but try to imagine your statement from God's perspective. God's word's remaining on earth based on obedience of man that's not the all powerful God that created the universe. If Gods prophets were killed and their words ignored their still needs to be communication between God and His creation. Consider  two painters one authentic and one fraudulent both painters can speak to men and tell them that they are the painter, but only one is telling the truth. The kind of answers I'm looking for are not somebody speaking on behalf of God, but a sort of signature from The Creator. If God is just then He has to make His identity known all men. No man can draw close to God by prophecy's and sets of rules because not all men live to see prophecy fulfilled and all men break the laws of God whether revealed or not. A god that speaks only through men can hardly be considered God. In other words, if the only place you can find the god of the Quran, is in the Quran then how can you claim he is The Creator of everything. The world can only assume the author of the quran is another painter who is trying to take credit for the work of someone else, The Creator. I don't think you gave your answer much thought their has to be something that you read in the Quran that resonated with you for you to believe it. If you believe the Quran to be the truth then it the truth found in it must be universally true. To say it another way, If the Quran is true, then it's teachings are true regardless of it's actual existence. What are these teachings, and what message would Muslims preach that transcends the words in your book were it to be destroyed?     

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: What would happen to religion without a book
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2014, 07:00:44 AM »
Keep your hypothesis to yourself . Quran is to be preserved as Allah promised .

Offline submit

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Re: What would happen to religion without a book
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2014, 05:25:48 AM »
like black muslim said, such hypothesis will only remain as supposition. It is something that will never happen. Why? the answer lies in the scriptures.
If you believe in God and what was sent in Israelite scripture. You will understand that God have promised that many nations will receive guidance. Thus telling that God will not abandon his creations and let them being misguided. God's Law will remain known to mankind till the Hour reaches them.

Offline JesusisGod

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Re: What would happen to religion without a book
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2014, 01:32:52 AM »
I'm so careful in my words on this post I've been a man that thought he could earn his acceptance by God through keeping |His words. |I failed, you are failing as well. |Laws are made for the disobedient the unrighteous for what has a righteous man to say about a law. A righteous man is perfect and has no need of instruction on what is good or bad he is good so he does by nature what is good. Y|our book is a book of laws which you have broken or have you fasted all the days in Ramadan since it is your holy month, or your wives whom you are responsible for if they are pregnant do they fast your children do they fast during Ramadan. Even according to your own standards you fail how much more then Do you transgress against God. Your own religion teaches you that you cannot make it or is God the |God of only one month out of the year if Food is a hindrance for us drawing closer to God then why do we eat at all. Open your eyes you will never draw close to God by His laws because you've broken them you break them and you will break them again. The very idea is flawed because if God is a God of Love and He is greater than all He must draw closer to us. He makes the first move by His great nature He has to. Yet your religion has man making the first move. A muslim once told me God only helps those who help themselves. Then he is no god at all. |How can you say god loves you when he expects you to save yourself from his own wrath. Weak wretched sinful beings that we are doesn't he know we will fail. My God has saved me and it is He that justifies me. You tell me what message you can preach against this perfect Love. Why would I become a muslim and be a servant of God if I am already a child of God         through Jesus. What can you say when I have an assurance of heaven now. You will tell me to be a muslim for a shot at heaven? If God is the greatest possible being then why has he let himself be out done by the God of the Bible. I still don't understand what message muslims preach their is no one in america that tries to make converts. Christians preach God crucified for our salvation a message of Love that can be understood all around the world without a single reference to the bible. Because in |Gods wisdom it deals with true concepts like love forgiveness justice right wrong love wrath, and these things are known all around the world. But your book on what authority does it stand and what message can one derive from it but to prostrate before God which a man will never be low enough to represent the great chasm that exists between God and man. Or to not eat pigs when it doesn't matter what I have put int my stomach when my soul has already been corrupted by the sins of hate lust and disobedience to God. I ask you again what do you preach. I might have to use the words of your own prophet seeing as how you are so unwilling to do so. If you consider yourselves as stewards of God's word I would expect a much more understanding attitude toward those in darkness but as it stands, God's truth is revealed: men who are self-righteous are proud and knowledge makes men proud where is there humility in your religion if you can be humble to God and not in front of men then you disgrace to the god you claim to serve. In the one sentence typed i see that a man who has no control over his tongue his religion is worthless. Look at how cautiously I approach your prophet and your god because you consider them holy so I try by all means to not offend. But it doesn't matter to you in the slightest if |I perish in hell for all eternity and you are unwilling to make an effort to enlighten me let alone examine your own beliefs. If this is the case then i will have to do as suggested and keep my hypothesis to myself. In either case i know the quran is not going to be destroyed that is not what i was asking |I was asking what message muslims preach.   

Offline submit

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Re: What would happen to religion without a book
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2014, 07:11:24 PM »
Yet your religion has man making the first move...

Of course that why we have prophets. As God ensure that His Laws need to be preached and spread. Followers of prophet keep on spreading the message for generations and generations. It is up to mankind to accept it or not. And they will be judged for their actions in afterword

~~
Christians preach God crucified for our salvation a message of Love that can be understood all around the world without a single reference to the bible...

If you read Israelite scriptures. God do not need to be crucified to give salvation to His creation. Romans seems to interpret wrongly about how God gives salvation that is by becoming a creation that is son of man and need to die on cross, and later wake up again.

Offline JesusisGod

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Re: What would happen to religion without a book
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2014, 12:50:40 AM »
A religion that has man making the first move is doomed to fail how can a finite mind even begin comprehending and infinite mind. Again how can sinful men even understand perfection. God is something that is too great for us to even begin to understand. He has to make the first move and all subsequent moves because we are far to limited and broken to even understand the smallest things about God. |I told you so many times laws cannot bring you closer to |God because they reveal to you that you have broken them. Their is enmity between a Just God who has to punish those who break his laws and a man who breaks Gods laws. It is convenient for you not to respond to my earnest attempt to find out if you have fasted for ramadan. |You might be able to escape my scrutiny but God knows and he will call you to account on your sin. How will you escape punishment from God. You might be better then some but you still broke the law. Adam was kicked out of the garden for one sin, so you can see one sin is all it takes to earn an eternity in hell. A prophet can't draw you closer to God he is just as limited and broken as you are who is to say a prophet is from God how can we know? He could be influenced by the Devil and be demon possessed or by his own lust for power. Why trust in a man when we should trust in God? He never fails; we always fail. His love is infinite; our love is selfish. He is omnipotent; we are weak. I could go on for pages and pages, but the point remains |He has to make the first move it's the greatest thing that can happen, so He does it. It is the only way salvation will succeed. If it depends on man it will fail every time. |If you believe knowledge of God or salvation depends on you, you have already failed , and if that is what your religion teaches then it is false. Man making the first move makes no logical sense  because men will fail 100% of the time. Doesn't it make more sense that God who cannot fail will both reveal Himself to man kind and save them. Or why do we have this broken world isn't it so that God can reveal himself perfectly to those whom He loves? I am not a follower of a prophet but a follower of Jesus the Christ, God in human flesh and the perfect revelation of my God and Heavenly Father. There is only one mediator between God and men that is Jesus Christ being both fully man he can reveal to men who God is not in mere words spoken by God, the Father, but in deeds performed by the Gods of Israel Father, Son, and Spirit working in harmony as they have always done. Where as your book has mere words an example is greater so it is an example God provides. Being fully man and fully Divine Jesus can connect us directly to Our heavenly Father because He understands and has lived as a man and will always remain God. Your mediator or connection to God are prophets who sin and are limited in their understanding and a law that you have broken. how will you ever draw close to God on such broken bridges. You never will. my connection to God is perfect its based on Him and His infinite love For His perfect Son Jesus through whom He has forgiven me.

Isaiah 43 tells us we are healed by the stripes of Jesus. The Israelites sacrificed animals every year to be forgiven of sinsyet the prophets say the blood of bulls and goats can never take away sins. Jesus the perfect lamb of God has died for my sins or what do You think pass over was all about. Or perhaps you have no tread how Abraham was told to sacrifice his son to God only to have God provide a sacrifice instead. God was showing man that what man was unable to do God did not in requiring our children for sacrifice, but in providing His own son so that we may live. No matter which way you look at it the prophecies of Jesus are all over the old testament. The Son of Man is revealed to be God in Daniel. The Christ is said to be The Father of Time or the creator of time in Isaiah. And many people all over the old testament have had encounters with God without dying. Its because they saw the pre-incarnate Jesus God the Son and men only die if they see the God the Father.

If you get all your info from muslim web sights I see why you think Jesus being God and Savior is a Roman interpretation, but the fact remains The gospel of John has been dated back to 94 a.d. And in it John the apostle of Christ records an encounter where Thomas call Jesus |His God and His savior. Which is onl;y natural seeing as how that was the message |Jesus was preaching all along. Nevertheless since you are muslim I will tell |You that Your prophet Muhammed has said that the injuils are the light to the gentiles as are the tuarat for the Jews. This means  you should believe they are not corrupted. If Mohamed backs them up Why don't You?                   

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: What would happen to religion without a book
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2014, 05:30:30 AM »
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A religion that has man making the first move is doomed to fail how can a finite mind even begin comprehending and infinite mind. Again how can sinful men even understand perfection. God is something that is too great for us to even begin to understand. He has to make the first move and all subsequent moves because we are far to limited and broken to even understand the smallest things about God.

We do know he is one , all knowledgeable , all powerful , and has no partners through pondering about his creation . We don't associate any charecteristics to him unless revealed to his prophet .

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I told you so many times laws cannot bring you closer to |God because they reveal to you that you have broken them.

Am I getting it wrong or do you want Allah to let us live without any rules and laws guiding us ? You know , so that there's a difference between us and animals ?!

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He could be influenced by the Devil and be demon possessed or by his own lust for power

A ridiculously lame attempt .

First of all , I can easily claim the same about any religion out there including Christianity . So keep these imaginations where they belong , the realm of imaginations .

Secondly , Allah challenges mankind and Jinns to bring a book rivaling Quran and the challenge remains until the judgement day :

17:88 Say, "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants."

So use whatever sorcerrors or shamans or whatever it is and attempt it . You'll fail on the spot .

Thirdly , lust of power ? You're clearly severly lacking knowledge of Islam and its history . The prophet peace upn him had wealth in the least of his interest . He passed away with his shield bonded - I think that's the word - at a Jewish man . Long nights would pass without a flame ignited in his house . And we wouldn't end anytime soon if I keep going .

So keep such imaginations to yourself .

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Why trust in a man when we should trust in God?

You are terribly mistaken if you think we'll just believe on the fly that YOUR religion is the true message from Allah . Why should I believe it is ? Can't you see that I can make the same allegations you made about Islam ?

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If you believe knowledge of God or salvation depends on you, you have already failed , and if that is what your religion teaches then it is false.

Your ignorance of Islam is proving to be irritating really .

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Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "The deeds of anyone of you will not save you (from the (Hell) Fire)." They said, "Even you (will not be saved by your deeds), O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)?" He said, "No, even I (will not be saved) unless and until Allah bestows His Mercy on me. Therefore, do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and worship Allah in the forenoon and in the afternoon and during a part of the night, and always adopt a middle, moderate, regular course whereby you will reach your target (Paradise).

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I am not a follower of a prophet but a follower of Jesus the Christ, God in human flesh and the perfect revelation of my God and Heavenly Father.

This line alone contradicts itself . You've been going on about how man is imperfect and always fails , and now you want me to believe the blasphemy that the almighty creator and lord of this creation is man ?! Not to mention that your own Bible allegates imperfection to Allah exalted he is from what you describe .

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Being fully man and fully Divine

R.I.P : Common Sense .

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Your mediator or connection to God are prophets who sin and are limited in their understanding and a law that you have broken.

Do not compare between the best of humans , the prophets as told in Islam , and the false pictures you make of them in your Bible of adultery , incest , unjust murder , and idol worshiping . They are the best of the creatures whom Allah chose to deliver his message . And it's ironic how you contradict yourself in one reply and even in one sentence . You kept talking about how our limited minds can't comprehend Allah , then you make the claim we do comprehend him if he revelas himself as an imperfect creature . Exalted he is from what you describe !

Further more , your question was about the delusion of "What would happen to religion without a book" and we told you to keep that delusion in your head . So what's the commotion ?

Offline JesusisGod

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Re: What would happen to religion without a book
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2014, 10:42:12 PM »
A religion that has man making the first move is doomed to fail how can a finite mind even begin comprehending and infinite mind. Again how can sinful men even understand perfection. God is something that is too great for us to even begin to understand. He has to make the first move and all subsequent moves because we are far to limited and broken to even understand the smallest things about God.
My point here is not Who God is but What is necessary in order for men to understand God. The point I am driving home here is that God is required by His great nature to make the first move in revealing Himself to mankind. It is a response to submit who says keeping of Laws revealed to prophets is How we get to know God. I further argue that a prophet is not sufficient enough for a man to understand God because all men are in the same position finite and sinners. If this is not what you believe let me know.

    I told you so many times laws cannot bring you closer to |God because they reveal to you that you have broken them.


Am I getting it wrong or do you want Allah to let us live without any rules and laws guiding us ? You know , so that there's a difference between us and animals ?!

I am trying to convey the message that is inherently taught in the giving of Laws. A law is for the unrighteous. If men were perfect or good, we would have no need of instruction on what not to do. We would do by our nature what is good, but as it stands the whole world is enslaved by sin and the power of sin is in the law given. Sin would have no power to condemn us eternally if no Law had been given, or how can God find fault when he didn't tell us what was wrong. Where there is no law there is also no violation. I am not saying that God's laws are evil, but that God wants to show us just how destructive sin is that it even takes advantage of the good law given by God to entice us to sin. Since man is a slave to sin all the more when they here a law. I would not have known about coveting if it hadn't been for God's laws, but when I heard the law. I stood condemned by the law and through it sin killed me and it continued to reign in my life.

My  point here is that how will any revealed law bring me closer to God when that same law shows me that I am a sinner and it condemns me to death. Get one thing straight though we are worse than animals we commit mass murder genocide and violent rape something all animals don't even consider. They may kill to eat but we kill for pleasure and riches. Who do you think you are surely you've broken God's commands what do you  think that makes you. Beats are ignorant if anything we are worse off because we have God's laws and still disobey.

I don't want to keep pushing this, but did any of you fast for all the days in ramadan. if you didn't, then what will your punishment be.

    He could be influenced by the Devil and be demon possessed or by his own lust for power


A ridiculously lame attempt .

A lame attempt at what after reading this I think you have misunderstood my point. I was not claiming that Islam arose by a demon possessed prophet, but it is interesting that you gave such a response. The message I was trying to get across here was that revelation by prophets are not the end all revelation by God. God is so great He will never be out done in His goodness. I ask you who is greater you or your prophet? You would no doubt say your prophet. If I am wrong in any of this let me know. Why are prophets greater than the run of the mill man? Because they comprehend God better than man seeing as how God revealed himself to them directly. I know that this didn't happen with Mohamed an angel appeared to him, but the other prophets. I want the readers of this exchange to understand it is much greater for God to reveal Himself to mankind, rather than to a prophet who then reveals God mankind



First of all , I can easily claim the same about any religion out there including Christianity . So keep these imaginations where they belong , the realm of imaginations

Yes you can and I encourage you to be sceptical. Jews were told to test the word of "prophets" if they didn't come true then they were to be stoned and they didn't speak on God's behalf. Christians are supposed to test the spirits if the message isn't in line with God's words then it is false. I am sure you can think of a similar situation in Islam if you can't think of any I can give you one. I could attack your religion but I don't think it's productive I'm not muslim so I wouldn't know all the ins and outs of your religion by reading certain articles online. I'm not here to  attack your religion but further understand it and reason with you the best I can from what the bible says after all this sight is called answering Chistianity.

Secondly , Allah challenges mankind and Jinns to bring a book rivaling Quran and the challenge remains until the judgement day :

17:88 Say, "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants."

So use whatever sorcerrors or shamans or whatever it is and attempt it . You'll fail on the spot .

This is the kind of thing that troubles me the most. This is how you defend the quran. The whole point of this post was to see if their was any substance behind your religion. I asked you guys several times to tell me what it is you people preach and I get no answer.
What would you tell some one who wants to convert to Islam and what is the benefit. The whole reason I asked if you could still have a religion without the quran was to get you to understand that God is greater than His words. Furthermore words are meaningless when compared to actions. What benefit is their to God saying he is infinite in Love if He never demonstrates  it anyone can talk all they want, but if their is any being in existence that will back up what He says with actions it is God. My entire point of this post is that Christianity would still be alive and well without the bible because what I preach doesn't depend on  the words of God, but the actions of God. That He became a man to live the perfect life and die for my sins. God to whom all things owe everything didn't take my sins into account against me on the contrary He came to serve me His enemy and show me His infinite Love and take my punishment in my place. This is greater than all the pages in any holy book combined because God is letting His actions speak for themselves. Something all other gods are unwilling to do.


Thirdly , lust of power ? You're clearly severly lacking knowledge of Islam and its history . The prophet peace upn him had wealth in the least of his interest . He passed away with his shield bonded - I think that's the word - at a Jewish man . Long nights would pass without a flame ignited in his house . And we wouldn't end anytime soon if I keep going



Again i'm going to tell you that what I wrote was not about Islam, but it was a challenge against all men who claim to be prophets on God's behalf. There have always been false prophets in the world and such men were motivated by their own lust for power and satan. I don't know anything about Mohamed you won't tell me what your religion teaches or how you would make converts what makes you think any other muslim tells me about Mohamed. My main point still stands the actions of God are worth more then the words through a prophet.

You are terribly mistaken if you think we'll just believe on the fly that YOUR religion is the true message from Allah . Why should I believe it is ? Can't you see that I can make the same allegations you made about Islam ?

I'm not expecting you to take it on the fly. I'm reasoning with you. I hope that you will see that God personally revealing himself to mankind is greater than God revealing Himself to mankind through prophets. If it is greater to be revealed personally then God must do it because He is the greatest possible being. Therefore, no matter what you have been taught about Jesus not being God, it is worthwhile to look at Christianity since it is the only religion that has God personally revealing himself to mankind.

Your ignorance of Islam is proving to be irritating really .

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    Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "The deeds of anyone of you will not save you (from the (Hell) Fire)." They said, "Even you (will not be saved by your deeds), O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)?" He said, "No, even I (will not be saved) unless and until Allah bestows His Mercy on me. Therefore, do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and worship Allah in the forenoon and in the afternoon and during a part of the night, and always adopt a middle, moderate, regular course whereby you will reach your target (Paradise).

This is my whole point so far you are the only muslim to bring this up. This is why I believe some muslims don't believe in the hadiths it is hard to back up a statement like this. Of course I believe that man are not saved by their own deeds like your own prophet put it its impossible yet all the muslims I talk to, talk about a cosmic scale God puts us on to see if we will go to heaven if our good deeds out weigh are bad. I know I am going to heaven because God has already had mercy on me.
several things here
1. if your prophet wont make it to heaven on what he does what chance do you have?
2. How can God have mercy and still be a just judge (if He lets sin go then he is not just)?
3. Why would Mohammed encourage his followers to do something in futility? (its impossible for them to get to heaven by doing good so they should continue to do good?)
4. What takes a person to heaven according to your religion how can anybody be sure they are going?
5. Some people believe that Mohammed is perfect and sinless, but this verse proves that he is not because God doesn't need to have mercy on those who have never sinned and if he never sinned then his righteous deeds would take him to heaven because God cannot condemn someone who never sinned. Why do some Muslims say Mohammed is perfect.
6. I am 100% positive I am going to Heaven why would I convert to Islam when their main prophet wasn't even sure?
7. All if God's prophets were certain they were going to be with God for eternity. If Mohammed is a prophet from God why isn't he sure he is going to Heaven?
8. Christianity teaches good deeds will never take us to heaven and those who try to do good to go to heaven will go to Hell. God (Jesus) takes us to Heaven, and we do good as an expression of our love for God. Which is a better motive love for God, or fear of God?
9. If I do good things to go to heaven (paradise or the target) then aren't I being selfish, and If I am being selfish then how can anything I do be considered good?
10. If God has mercy on us because we do good then how can it be considered mercy? Mercy means we don't get what we deserve, but if God looks the other way because we do good He's not being merciful He is rewarding us for doing good.

Answer any of these the best you can use whatever you like but try to answer them.

This line alone contradicts itself . You've been going on about how man is imperfect and always fails , and now you want me to believe the blasphemy that the almighty creator and lord of this creation is man ?! Not to mention that your own Bible allegates imperfection to Allah exalted he is from what you describe .

Jesus isn't a man that's what you believe. I believe Jesus has always existed as God the Son and He became a man to show us God The Father. Jesus, the man, was not conceived by man He was conceived By God the Holy Spirit (the quran also teaches this), therefore He was born without sin just Like Adam. However unlike Adam He knew God the Father intimately and perfectly as God the Son before He decided to become Jesus and be born into this world. He gave up all this knowledge and power as God and became a man limiting himself to time and His own creation. He grew and learned more and more about the world all the while living in perfect union and harmony with God. What man (Adam) was supposed to do. From a human perspective it was possible for Jesus to fall into sin He was tempted by satan himself and still didn't sin He obeyed God completely even dying the worst death imaginable because He Loved God The Father and those whom He died for.
 None of this contradicts man didn't create this world Jesus (as God the Son) did before He decided to become a man. You may not have known that but that's what I believe and that is what the injuils teach.

    Being fully man and fully Divine


R.I.P : Common Sense .
 Like I explained When Jesus was a man He was a man in every sense of the word, like Adam was a man, but unlike Adam Jesus displayed the qualities of God that only God up to that point can express loving beyond measure obedient to an infinite degree hating all sin. This is what makes Jesus Divine He is perfectly obedient to God the Father. He is what gives my Life hope as a Christian. I'm not saved on my righteousness or my obedience but that of Jesus'. In this way my salvation is assured as God will not reject Jesus I will not be rejected as I am His.

Do not compare between the best of humans , the prophets as told in Islam , and the false pictures you make of them in your Bible of adultery , incest , unjust murder , and idol worshiping . They are the best of the creatures whom Allah chose to deliver his message . And it's ironic how you contradict yourself in one reply and even in one sentence . You kept talking about how our limited minds can't comprehend Allah , then you make the claim we do comprehend him if he revelas himself as an imperfect creature . Exalted he is from what you describe !

I don't know what you mean but if you are taught that Mohammed is the best of humans they are wrong we already saw that Mohammed put himself in the same boat as all of humanity in that quote you gave about good deeds and mercy. Whoever taught you this is wrong or you can take the opposite side and say that Mohammed was wrong.
All men sin this is what makes Jesus unique because He didn't. I'm not going to say the Bible is wrong because it gives an accurate portrayal of what man is like. If all the prophets were perfect then we would have never noticed Jesus, and if they could be perfect then why can't I. I would certainly be going to hell if all the prophets were perfect because I am not. How can God show His love to the prophets if they are perfect part of understanding God's love is to experience His continual and infinite forgiveness Grace and mercy something that will never happen to a perfect person.

God is far exalted above anything I could possibly describe or the Bible that has been my Whole point all along. How God is so much greater then the words of Holy Books. God's action of becoming a man to die and serve me is something I have yet to fully comprehend the action is to great for my finite mind to absorb a kind of action and plan that has originated in the infinite mind Of God. Nevertheless I know this has all come from God because it is to perfect and contradicts all of what Human biengs would do. After all God is much greater than Human beings, so his actions are far greater than mans actions. If its illogical or stupid to you perhaps it is to great for you to understand. 

Further more , your question was about the delusion of "What would happen to religion without a book" and we told you to keep that delusion in your head . So what's the commotion ?

I've already explained by asking the question I hoped to see the learned Muslims take an honest look at their beliefs and tell me of the substance found in their religion. But all of my questions are met with hostility and left wondering if your quran teaches that God is infinite in love then where is this love displayed in Muslims. Further more the commotion seems to be some people are unable or unwilling to think outside of their own religion even for a second to save some one who is on the outside.

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: What would happen to religion without a book
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2014, 07:33:28 AM »
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I am trying to convey the message that is inherently taught in the giving of Laws. A law is for the unrighteous. If men were perfect or good, we would have no need of instruction on what not to do. We would do by our nature what is good, but as it stands the whole world is enslaved by sin and the power of sin is in the law given.

Well deal with it , humans are not perfect and they may do good or bad . And if truth leaves falsehood in peace , falsehood will NEVER leave truth in peace . That's why Allah sets laws and orders for us to follow . There's chaos without laws , that's basic common sense . Even physics have law !

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The point I am driving home here is that God is required by His great nature to make the first move in revealing Himself to mankind.

And that's why he sends prophets and messengers . So ?

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I further argue that a prophet is not sufficient enough for a man to understand God because all men are in the same position finite and sinners.

Your argument is invalid and you contradict yourself . The almighty creator is beyond our capabilities to comprehend . And thus , without him telling us of himself , we don't associate any characteristics to him . And don't compare between the prophets in Islam and what you allegate to them of the most hideous sins .

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My  point here is that how will any revealed law bring me closer to God when that same law shows me that I am a sinner and it condemns me to death. Get one thing straight though we are worse than animals we commit mass murder genocide and violent rape something all animals don't even consider. They may kill to eat but we kill for pleasure and riches. Who do you think you are surely you've broken God's commands what do you  think that makes you. Beats are ignorant if anything we are worse off because we have God's laws and still disobey.

That's your own personal belief . Man has the nature of doing good or evil . Man is not purely good or evil whatsoever :

91:7 And [by] the soul and He who proportioned it 8 And inspired it [with discernment of] its wickedness and its righteousness, 9 He has succeeded who purifies it, 10 And he has failed who instills it [with corruption].

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I don't want to keep pushing this, but did any of you fast for all the days in ramadan. if you didn't, then what will your punishment be.

None of your business .

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Why are prophets greater than the run of the mill man? Because they comprehend God better than man seeing as how God revealed himself to them directly.

Like what you claim Allah did of showing his back to prophet Moses ? You're trying to push an idea here and you don't stop to realize how wrong it is . Creatures can't comprehend the almighty .

42:51 And it is not for any human being that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.

And Allah doesn't just pick whomever there is for prophecy . It might seem like a game to you but it isn't . Prophets are easily better than the rest of mankind and THAT'S why they become prophets . Then again , I'm not sure you associate good characteristics to prophets .

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I asked you guys several times to tell me what it is you people preach and I get no answer.

Between these walls of text - where you don't even bother separate - , where did you ask this ? However , we invite people to one true lord who says about himself :

112:1 Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One, 2 Allah , the Eternal Refuge. 3 He neither begets nor is born, 4 Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

We invite to respect of parents , helping ones in need , being patient in hardships , and the list would go on and on if I keep going .

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Furthermore words are meaningless when compared to actions.

You seem to turn a blind eye to serious problems whenever you make a statement . Without words , how on Earth will you know that the "actions" you preach are right ? You seem to be a rare breed of Christians I have never seen before . While they all defend the Bible and claim it wasn't corrupted , here you are acting like it wouldn't matter .

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Again i'm going to tell you that what I wrote was not about Islam, but it was a challenge against all men who claim to be prophets on God's behalf. There have always been false prophets in the world and such men were motivated by their own lust for power and satan.

Well I can claim that such people are the ones who altered the true message of Christ peace upon him . So answer your own challenge and show us why should we believe them ?

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I hope that you will see that God personally revealing himself to mankind is greater than God revealing Himself to mankind through prophets.

You've been going on and on about this for a while now without seeing serious issues with it . Why did God leave people misguided all that time without "revealing himself" (I already said it's blasphemy and impossible) ?

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Therefore, no matter what you have been taught about Jesus not being God, it is worthwhile to look at Christianity since it is the only religion that has God personally revealing himself to mankind.

You did NOT just say this ! Ever heard of Krishna in Hinduism ? He's the son of God , born of a virgin , is able to walk on water , and died for the sin of mankind . Kinda strange , huh ?

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I know I am going to heaven because God has already had mercy on me.

Then kill , rape , steal , and do whatever hideous crimes come to your mind since you're going to heaven . THIS is the issue here . Your arrogance makes you think that your belief is enough to have the mercy of Allah . We on the other hand take belief AND actions . And while Allah promises a good life in the afterlife to who believes in him , we always ask him to guide us to the best and take us away from the worst . If mercy would be given to whomever , people's rights would go down the drain ! You're talking about fantasies here , we're talking about reality .

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1. if your prophet wont make it to heaven on what he does what chance do you have?

The mercy of Allah is what saves us , and in case you don't know - you don't - , on of the names of Allah is the merciful . We attain a balance between love , fear , and hope . We worship Allah out of love , fear of his might and punishment for our sins , and hope of his mercy . Further more , Allah said prophets are to enter paradise , and while that is with his mercy as well , it still answers you .

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2. How can God have mercy and still be a just judge (if He lets sin go then he is not just)?

And I suppose the "love" you keep talking about is just ? And no , forgiving sins doesn't contradict being just . Do I need to repeat such a simple given fact ? When I as a human forgive someone who did wrong against me , am I being unjust ?

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3. Why would Mohammed encourage his followers to do something in futility? (its impossible for them to get to heaven by doing good so they should continue to do good?)

I already told you , we combine both belief and work . We don't just sit back and do nothing and then expect to be rewarded for that .

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4. What takes a person to heaven according to your religion how can anybody be sure they are going?

No one is except whom Allah said will . That is why we do good and avoid evil . If everyone were sure to go to heaven eventually , there won't be a reason for good deeds and no reason to avoid evil deeds . And as I already explained , we combine love , fear , and hope .

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5. Some people believe that Mohammed is perfect and sinless, but this verse proves that he is not because God doesn't need to have mercy on those who have never sinned and if he never sinned then his righteous deeds would take him to heaven because God cannot condemn someone who never sinned. Why do some Muslims say Mohammed is perfect.

While there is a huge difference between the "sins" of the prophets and the sins of the rest of mankind , yes , no human is sinless because no one is perfect except the almighty himself . And we don't say prophet Muhammad is "perfect" as in the sense he's flawless , but as in that he is the best of mankind . In the end , it's probably just a misconception about the term .

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6. I am 100% positive I am going to Heaven why would I convert to Islam when their main prophet wasn't even sure?

Like I said , go ahead and sin all you like since you'll go to heaven for sure . And don't bother with any good deeds .

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7. All if God's prophets were certain they were going to be with God for eternity. If Mohammed is a prophet from God why isn't he sure he is going to Heaven?

You mean all the prophets according to YOUR book . And that's why they did adultery , killed , and worshiped other than Allah . But we declare that they are innocent of what you falsely describe .

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Which is a better motive love for God, or fear of God?

Both . In addition to hope .

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9. If I do good things to go to heaven (paradise or the target) then aren't I being selfish, and If I am being selfish then how can anything I do be considered good?

I already explained that we combine all three in our worship . But still , if I know I'd go to hell for eternity , would I be considered selfish if I do something to prevent that ? Especially on such a day :

80:33 But when there comes the Deafening Blast 34 On the Day a man will flee from his brother 35 And his mother and his father 36 And his wife and his children, 37 For every man, that Day, will be a matter adequate for him.

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10. If God has mercy on us because we do good then how can it be considered mercy? Mercy means we don't get what we deserve, but if God looks the other way because we do good He's not being merciful He is rewarding us for doing good.

NOTHING we ever do is enough respect to Allah almighty . That is why there is mercy . Still , that doesn't mean to NOT do good .

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Jesus isn't a man that's what you believe.

Have you no shred of shame ? YOU'RE the one who said :

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Being fully man and fully Divine

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Like I explained When Jesus was a man He was a man in every sense of the word,

Twist it however you like , that's imperfection . There can be an Afro Asian who has the characteristics of both , but that's because both are human and finite . You want me to believe that the unlimited is the same as the limited . Two contradicting statements cannot be both right .

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I don't know what you mean but if you are taught that Mohammed is the best of humans they are wrong we already saw that Mohammed put himself in the same boat as all of humanity in that quote you gave about good deeds and mercy. Whoever taught you this is wrong or you can take the opposite side and say that Mohammed was wrong.

This statement of yours isn't worth a penny . He may not have been perfect - perfection is only for Allah - but he's STILL the best of mankind . Being best doesn't mean you're flawless . You're trying to play with words here and you fail .

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All men sin this is what makes Jesus unique because He didn't.

Why do I have the feeling a simple Google search will prove this wrong ? Further more , that's YOUR belief . And how on Earth would God place himself on the scale of judgement ?! 3 in 1 and 1 in 3 ! Do you see the problem here ?!

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God is far exalted above anything I could possibly describe or the Bible that has been my Whole point all along. How God is so much greater then the words of Holy Books. God's action of becoming a man to die and serve me is something I have yet to fully comprehend the action is to great for my finite mind to absorb a kind of action and plan that has originated in the infinite mind Of God.

A nice way to turn around the actual issue . You just said he died . That means he's finite . That means he lacks power . Being human in itself is imperfection . Why would I worship someone imperfect ?

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Nevertheless I know this has all come from God because it is to perfect and contradicts all of what Human biengs would do.

While Jews lack a lot of faith and Christians lack a lot of asking for proof , we have both . When we're convinced with proof of Islam , we believe whatever it says by faith . But when the foundation of the religion itself is impossible to understand , what proof is there ?!

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if your quran teaches that God is infinite in love then where is this love displayed in Muslims.

Allah isn't just about love . And love isn't in the 99 names . Look them up .

Offline JesusisGod

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Re: What would happen to religion without a book
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2014, 03:43:44 AM »
Thank you for the reply. I apologize for not using the p.b.u.h., but I'm not Muslim so I don't mean to offend. I appreciate your effort in answering as many points as you can.

Well deal with it , humans are not perfect and they may do good or bad . And if truth leaves falsehood in peace , falsehood will NEVER leave truth in peace . That's why Allah sets laws and orders for us to follow . There's chaos without laws , that's basic common sense . Even physics have law !

This is where a fundamental difference in our religion is I can give you verse of the bible if you like Romans 3:10-12 I believe allmen are born sinful whether conscious or not they innately always do bad. I will try to prove it to you based on what you believe If all men are sinners and is impossible for them to be perfect then they logically must be born bad otherwise it would be possible for a man to be perfect which You said only Allah is, if I was born good then didn't do bad for my first two years of life then died I would die perfect. Furthermore we don't see perfect people on earth that must mean they are not born perfect how can sin overcome perfection it cannot or can sin beat God? I don't believe humans can do right or wrong I believe based on what I see in the world that Human being are born innately selfish, and they will always do wrong unless God is in control of them. The is the biggest problem between our communication is you may not understand my religion. I never did good in my life till before I became a Christian. All the nice things I did in life were because I was forced to or to be viewed as a good guy. Consider what |Jesus was telling the |Jews of |His time That they offer loud prayers and lots of money to God's temple and announce it on the street corners. Surely you can see their actions where wrong because they came from an evil place. I believe all of Humanity is this way I see it all the time when someone does something nice for some body they can't help but tell the entire world what they've done. We may appear to love others, but sometimes we fear loneliness so we will do "good" things for others, or we fear what others will think of us if we fail to do some thing so we do it. In this sense |I believe men are utterly corrupt the worst part is they don't even know it. I knew |I was a pretty bad guy because of the bad things I| had done, but I never knew just how bad I was that even what I thought was good was utterly evil.
I think that this scenario which is Taught in The Bible fits in line with God being Good as the |Creator and infinitely Good He is the source of all good. He shows Christians this by controlling them With His Holy Spirit.

Truth need not do anything the very presence of truth sheds light on the darkness lies try to hide behind. I don't know where you got this saying but satan is on The defense not on the attack He tries to deceive but where truth is, it shines light on the darkness. The problem is men inherently love the dark because they are by nature evil so they are easily deceived they even deceive themselves.

I'm not saying their should be no Laws, but that Laws don't serve to bring us closer to God. On the contrary in fact Laws drive us further away from God because in giving them |God is revealing to mankind how far they fall short of God, and how much punishment they deserve from Him. |I believe that in the world we live in now, all things need Laws because all things are broken and under the curse of sin, and death its sting. Nevertheless I know God did not make it this way For God said everything was good when He created it. |Or is God the author of sin? It was therefore made good but man defiled it by choosing to become evil. Adam did by nature what was good when he was made he had no concept of evil, so he always obeyed God until the time came that disobeyed not by a moral offense because he was morally pure, but in disobedience to God's only command. This "law", so to speak, didn't even reveal sin it was a simple command but Adam chose to disobey and become evil because he didn't want to be separated from his wife.

                         And that's why he sends prophets and messengers . So ?
I'm not saying God doesn't send messengers. But that the message giver is greater then the messenger God Of course did send messengers to mankind, but it all culminated to the Coming of Jesus the Living Word  by whom humanity receives the full revelation of God. From God The Father and by God The Son |Jesus Christ  The Holy Spirit confirming it to those who believe. Not from God to a prophet but to man directly Jesus being God.  Stop trying to find fault and evaluate the claim. Is it not much better for God to both give the message and  relay the message Through the Son a perfect messenger and make sure men receive it with The Spirit giving understanding.  If you look at this comparison honestly then you will if you are being honest admit that it is greater than a mere prophet. I| know you don't believe its true but the fact remains neither of us is all knowing so we can be wrong. I'm not asking you which one is true we believe on Faith, but which one is greater?

Your argument is invalid and you contradict yourself . The almighty creator is beyond our capabilities to comprehend . And thus , without him telling us of himself , we don't associate any characteristics to him . And don't compare between the prophets in Islam and what you allegate to them of the most hideous sins .

 I can agree that it would be a wise thing to be on the safe side rather than assume something is true of someone we've never seen Who deserves all the reverence in the world. Nevertheless, My argument is one that is philosophically resolved in my religion, but lacks in all other religions I've studied.

The question is how can a finite mind understand an infinite mind? You can replace infinite with perfect or power really anything that is true of God, yet not of us,but infinite is my favorite because it brings out the vast difference between us and God.  I know you think I contradict myself, and perhaps I do, but only to the extent that I don't explain fully what God has taught. To this point I am asking you questions that pierce at your beliefs, but I wouldn't ask you a question about your religion that mine has no answer for, would I?
The fact Is a message that is given is only as good as the person giving it. So a liar as the message giver would invalidate the message because he is a liar. Their is no difference in What we believe to this point We both believe That God Who cannot lie is a worthy message giver Who can be trusted. Next A message is only as good as the conduit through which the message is relayed, the telephone so to speak. If God called your house with a message and your phone was so messed up all you heard was static the message would be worthless although true. This is where we disagree. No matter how good they are the prophets are not perfect so they cannot reveal the message with the same veracity or truth with which it was given. So we run into the first problem with the message given through prophets. If God will judge the world then He can't leave an excuse for man to give to escape judgement. A mistrial if you would think about it in that sense. So God sent His Perfect Son, when I say son I don't mean literally this. The Son of God is a title that Jesus Has and uses because the Jews understood this meant Jesus was equal with God, He is not Gods son in that He was not born from God He is God's Son in that He is every thing that God the Father is (they have the same nature which includes  being infinite having no origin etc.) yet not the same person as God the Father. To give the message after all Who better to reveal God the Father then the One who is exactly like Him. Or you could think of it as God revealing God, whichever is easier I know based on what you were taught its hard. But their is a further problem Jesus in all His Glory still couldn't fully reveal God because He is still infinite, so we would still not comprehend. So Jesus became a man He went from Infinite to finite so that we would be able comprehend         
God. He went from being obviously perfect to looking just like every one of us although still perfect. If He would not have done this it would be like God giving a message in a language no one understands because no one is infinite or perfect etc..  You may think that is all but their further remains a problem. A message is only as good as the ones who receive it after all what good is their in God speaking to a man over the perfect phone if the man is deaf and this is where Christianity is leaps and bounds away from all other religions. We cannot understand God He is spiritual we are flesh we are evil so we don't want to even understand Him. So What God Did crate us new What we Christians call being born Again God the Holy Spirit gave "birth" to a new a perfect us. I am a born again new creation altogether. And The spirit makes sure I understand the message of God because he Takes the perfect message given by the perfect messenger who is in the likeness of man and explains it to the new perfect creation as it was in the mind of God. The message is 100% pure from person who give it to the person who relays it to the person who explains it and even to the person who receives it perfect all the way through. If you thought I was arrogant before this might infuriate you, but I am perfect. Although I sin I am  perfect. After all I have been washed by the perfect blood of my Savior and all My sins past present and future are washed and forgiven. After all someone is only dirty if he has not been washed. How much cleaner am I that have been washed by God?
       
                And don't compare between the prophets in Islam and what you allegate to them of the most hideous sins .
Sorry but again its a failure of communication I believe all sin is the same in God's eyes. If you have broken one commandment you have broken them all. It may seem harsh, but such is fitting of such a holy and perfect Being. Darkness any darkness at all can have no place with light. James 2:10-11 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11For He who said, “DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,” also said, “DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 

That's your own personal belief . Man has the nature of doing good or evil . Man is not purely good or evil whatsoever :

91:7 And [by] the soul and He who proportioned it 8 And inspired it [with discernment of] its wickedness and its righteousness, 9 He has succeeded who purifies it, 10 And he has failed who instills it [with corruption].

 Sorry but I disagree, not with the verse, but with your claim. All men are absolutely evil and they always do evil unless they are born again and are set free from their evil and are controlled by God. Now to the verse apparently you didn't read it carefully. 1 It doesn't say men are born good or righteous but they have the ability to discern both good and evil. Which I also know to be true. Furthermore, I can make a case that it teaches they are born bad or at the very least will always become bad. It says purify something good has no need to be purified. This is why I reason with Muslims this verse tells you that if you sin you fail. Only perfection can purify or put another way pure can only purify if we sin we lose the ability to purify because we are stained. It's like trying to wash clothes in water that has been stained with dye the clothes may come out clean from one thing but they come out stained of another. Jesus' death/blood is what purifies because it is perfect and infinite it can purify my imperfections (sins) and because i only commit a finite number infinite always overtakes it.

        None of your business .

Fair enough I didn't ask this question to try to gain some leverage on you or to disprove your religion I only asked so that those who rad it will examine themselves. I fasted one day in Ramadan not that it matters I sin every day. I just brought it up because it was relevant to the time of our discussion and the discussion itself.

Like what you claim Allah did of showing his back to prophet Moses ? You're trying to push an idea here and you don't stop to realize how wrong it is . Creatures can't comprehend the almighty .

Again I explained that it is possible With the whole messenger phone thing I was hoping your religion Would at least try to attempt to answer the question. But the idea I push is that Man can only comprehend the almighty through the exact pattern I just described I think it is a good idea and concept that man should understand his Creator I don't see why this is wrong. I do see that the flip is wrong How could you possibly stay in a religion that teaches you you will never understand God? I believe you may have just misspoke here.
seeing as how the verse that follows doesn't say that we will never comprehend God.
 
42:51 And it is not for any human being that Allah should speak to him except by revelation or from behind a partition or that He sends a messenger to reveal, by His permission, what He wills. Indeed, He is Most High and Wise.

This time I will disagree with this verse I don't intend to disrespect, but to point out a couple of things. Again I don't know the context so I can't fully disagree. At best I could say I disagree with the way you present it. If a king is unwilling to humble himself to serve his people then he is no king at all and he will be hated by all. It is a king who humbles himself to serve that which is lower, even the lowest, that is loved understood and followed even to death by those whom he serves. This is what makes Jesus so great He is a King like no other serving those that hated him and  loving those that disobeyed Him. This is not what God did in the old testament He spoke to men in the old testament directly. Some even saw the pre-incarnate Christ in other words they saw |God. God the Son. We can't see the Father without dying.
The whole wizard of oz thing applies her if God is unwilling to show himself beyond a partition how are we to really know that the person behind the partition is God. In all sincerity if |I stood before God on judgement day and |I was wrong and you were right. I would say was it wrong of me to doubt the Quran If you were unwilling to show yourself how was |I to know that you were the one speaking. Only darkness hides no one lights a lamp and puts it under the bed. Only satan has need to hide. Why the partition from the Father of lights? An answer here would be greatly appreciated because I see things now further doubt raises in my mind.   

And Allah doesn't just pick whomever there is for prophecy . It might seem like a game to you but it isn't . Prophets are easily better than the rest of mankind and THAT'S why they become prophets . Then again , I'm not sure you associate good characteristics to prophets.

Their is no game this is serious stuff here false prophets have always existed we are to make sure we are not deceived by them. Again I agree Gods prophets were outstanding in character, but far from perfect. The character of a prophet is only one way to spot a prophet and I think it is one of the weaker ways because our moral compasses are so bad we are likely to reject a true prophet for one who looks holy on the outside but is rotten on the inside.  |Nevertheless my point still stands that God revealing |God is much greater, so I believe God has done it this way because he must do the greatest possible thing.

You did NOT just say this ! Ever heard of Krishna in Hinduism ? He's the son of God , born of a virgin , is able to walk on water , and died for the sin of mankind . Kinda strange , huh ?

No do your research I once saw a movie zeitgeist that spewed this trash but it was clearly demonic I studied lots of different religions While I was an "atheist" Hinduism was my specialty because of the yoga craze this is outright false. Krishna was mistaken for a deer and shot in the heel he didn't die for sins and even this story was told much later then Jesus birth and resurrection. Watch this clip it refutes all the lies  you apparently were told. What shocks me is that you so readily accepted this lie without doing any further research Not wikipediea either you know the posters on there are so anti-God they don't even sight sources when they make up their own history to attack Him. Watch this clip the krishna part is starts at 8:46 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hgX6w4U-2o   
 I will post the rest tommorow it's is getting late

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: What would happen to religion without a book
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2014, 06:33:58 AM »
Alright , I officially stop here and leave it to someone else , partially because of the walls of text and partially because I got better things to do .

Offline JesusisGod

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Re: What would happen to religion without a book
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2014, 12:13:49 AM »
Well I thank you for your time sorry if the text is to long, but I hope you did take the time to read it all as I did various posts on this thread because I think it is necessary to understand Christianity before you answer questions  about it. 

Offline JesusisGod

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Re: What would happen to religion without a book
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2014, 03:23:39 AM »
Between these walls of text - where you don't even bother separate - , where did you ask this ? However , we invite people to one true lord who says about himself :

112:1 Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One, 2 Allah , the Eternal Refuge. 3 He neither begets nor is born, 4 Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

We invite to respect of parents , helping ones in need , being patient in hardships , and the list would go on and on if I keep going .

All the parts 1-4 are the same as various religions out there Jehovah's Witnesses believe that same thing as do Jews what is the different many religions claim that their |god is the true God and they teach the refuge thing aswellas their is only one and not born no other like him. I don't understand what your god does to prove this. For the most part Satan has taken upon himself to start to spread moral religions that are false many false religions tell people to help others etc.
When I look at religions besides Christianity |I see works based entrance into an afterlife and different customs that are meaningless and peculiar to the religion in question. Yoga for Hindus not eating pork for Jews. Priests can't get married Catholics. I want to know what is unique

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You seem to turn a blind eye to serious problems whenever you make a statement . Without words , how on Earth will you know that the "actions" you preach are right ? You seem to be a rare breed of Christians I have never seen before . While they all defend the Bible and claim it wasn't corrupted , here you are acting like it wouldn't matter .

First I know you believe God gives a conscious so I don't necessarily need  to be told what is right by God He gave me a conscious that |I transgress. Furthermore, when I condemn another and say that is wrong |I've just created a standard for myself that I also will eventually transgress. For example a girl who calls a girl who has premarital sex a bad name has now set a standard she is likely to break in the future, and in so doing she sins. I agree that most of the time the words come first and the actions later. For instance The Jews were told God was infinite in love but they didn't see Gods actions of love as a nation until Until God became a man to die for their eternal salvation. Nevertheless, actions don't always come first for the first century Christians they had no law and no revelation of the One (Echad composite oneness) True God but they still believed when told of God's Actions. In Fact the actions of God proved greater because the words of God to the Jews were already full filled in Christ and caused many Christians to stumble seeing as how they were       taught the greater (actions not words) first they experienced freedom. It would be like being shown how to fly before you can walk and then being expected to walk every where. Why go back to the letter of the Law when The Spirit Of Christ has set me free.
I won't defend the bible's accuracy because you will never believe its been preserved even though Allah in your book backs it up by saying they are his words to the Jews and Christians and also says his words can never be altered by men. The very idea that the bible is corrupt is blasphemy in your religion, but I digress. I am trying to help you see the actions of God which are greater than any words ever spoken because in them are eternal life The gospel of Christ is |God becoming a man to die for sins so that those who rely on who God is (Jesus) and what God did to take them to Heaven will go to Heaven. this is not something God just said it's something he did. I hope I'm not a rare breed of Christian I could care less if you believed the entire bible was false if you believed Jesus is |God and He is the only way to go to heaven because he died and rose again because at least then you would go to Heaven. This is not saying that the Bible is false its 100% true, but you will never believe it because don't have Gods Holy Spirit to explain them to you not until you admit Jesus is God and  he died to take you to heaven. The whole post was to get people to think what it was that Allah had done specifically to prove who he is. That's why the question invalidates his words because all sorts of gods claim the same stuff Allah does that doesn't make them God. As far as what I've been told Allah is not unique among any gods I've studied No one tells me anything he does only what he says. I'm left thinking how deceived can people be to believe words, no matter how poetic, if no actions follow. This goes back to my painter analogy anybody can claim to be the creator, but their actions have to back it up.

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Well I can claim that such people are the ones who altered the true message of Christ peace upon him . So answer your own challenge and show us why should we believe them ?
   

You can't say the Bible has been changed since Allah told your prophet that the Taurat (old testament) is God's word to the Jews And the Injuils (the New Testament) is Gods' word to the Christians people of the book
Furthermore these surahs say "Shall I seek for judge other than God? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt. The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all. S. 6:114-115

And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him. S. 18:27
How can God's words be changed you are not a muslim if you deny the bible so believe what I'm telling you I am a Christian a person of the book and I preach to you its message unchanged and forever true.

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You've been going on and on about this for a while now without seeing serious issues with it . Why did God leave people misguided all that time without "revealing himself" (I already said it's blasphemy and impossible) ?

No God did reveal Himself to the Jews and people knew that the God of Israel was the true God because He was the only Gods to save His people with Actions. The nations were supposed to leave their Idols and come to the Jews to teach them more about God, but the |Jews were terrible witnesses about God. Most of them didn't believe even though they saw with their own eyes what Gods was doing, and the other half were limited in what they could do because the law was weak because it was given to the flesh. Even before the jews he has left a witness of Himself in nature and probably a lot of priests and prophets, like Melchiezadek and Abraham) over the years before the law came to Moses for the Jews. Lastly the message of Jesus is universal and supersedes the laws because the promise of eternal salvation was given before the law and the law has already been fulfilled in Christ.

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Then kill , rape , steal , and do whatever hideous crimes come to your mind since you're going to heaven . THIS is the issue here . Your arrogance makes you think that your belief is enough to have the mercy of Allah . We on the other hand take belief AND actions . And while Allah promises a good life in the afterlife to who believes in him , we always ask him to guide us to the best and take us away from the worst . If mercy would be given to whomever , people's rights would go down the drain ! You're talking about fantasies here , we're talking about reality .
 

This statement here proves the truths I've been trying to teach you all along |If |I was born with a neutral or good nature able to do what is right then why would you tell me to do these things. The fact of the matter is you like most people know, maybe subconsciously that we have a corrupt nature because we know the horrible thoughts that we have. Why would you ask me to do these things if they are extremely wrong? I know its because they are what the flesh nature enjoys. The evil nature we are born with enjoys doing evil things, but |I have a new nature I'm born again. These things You mention disgust me. God has taught me himself that these things lead to death. Why would I return back to slavery once having been set free? Sin was once my master and all I could do was want these things and sin. The consequences of the law would prevent me from doing these things in real life, but my mind couldn't help but do them, and I would enjoy them in fact I was unable to stop. Now I can not only stop sinning I can do real good from a motive of Love of God rather than fake good from a selfish motive. I have God living inside me, and we enjoy new (for me not Them) things together.
I don't do these things because I love God and |I don't want to hurt them by sinning. Furthermore I am very active in sharing the gospel that says faith in Jesus as God and Savior is all it takes to get to Heaven, so if |I sin people are less likley to trust the message from God in human terms. |You seem to think that Human effort restrain sin in the world. It doesn't Only God restrains sin in the world . And don't get any funny Ideas he Doesn't do it through laws But by His awesome power presence and Sovereignty. After all laws have up to this point have not eradicated sin in the world, but God's power and presence in my life has defeated sin.
  Mercy is given to Whomever God wishes , He is sovereign,  don't decieve yourself how can you tell |God to whom he should have mercy. God has saved serial killers rapists and murderers |He saves the worst of the worst to show How infinitely merciful He is, and it's not my place as a sinner who deserves to be in hell to say God don't do that they are really bad.  People should really learn to take the log out of their own eye before they start seeing specks in other peoples eyes.

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The mercy of Allah is what saves us , and in case you don't know - you don't - , on of the names of Allah is the merciful . We attain a balance between love , fear , and hope . We worship Allah out of love , fear of his might and punishment for our sins , and hope of his mercy . Further more , Allah said prophets are to enter paradise , and while that is with his mercy as well , it still answers you .

Before I was a Christian people told me they loved me all the time |I quickly learned through much heart ache and betrayal that talk is cheap. I would never love |God if all he said was that |He loved me. He had to show me which |He did in dying for me? I have no fear of God's punishment its already been paid. Nevertheless, I still respect and revere |God because of who he is. |But my fear of God or my love of |God don't take me to |Heaven. |I trust that |Jesus will take me there. |I don't understand how you can hope in Allah's mercy if all he does is talk about it. I hope in God's mercy to but my Gods mercy has already been demonstrated on the cross. How do you know your god is merciful? |Because its one of his names or because he says he is is not a sufficient answer what has he done?

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And I suppose the "love" you keep talking about is just ? And no , forgiving sins doesn't contradict being just . Do I need to repeat such a simple given fact ? When I as a human forgive someone who did wrong against me , am I being unjust ?

Yes, God The Fathers Love is just I deserve to be punished for my sins, but The Father Loves me so |He sent His only Son to die and take my punishment in my place. |He didn't just forgive me that would be unjust.
No you are not unjust in forgiving someone who wrongs you, but ||God is. You see your not a judge. If I were to steal 100 dollars from you and the judge was my father and he forgave me without any punishment or me returning your money, then the judge is unjust. In the same way God is unjust in punishing some people for their sins and "forgiving" looking the other way or excusing others. It's His authority as a judge that makes forgiving some one wrong because he has said he will punish sins and if he forgive some one then who has paid the punishment. 

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I already told you , we combine both belief and work . We don't just sit back and do nothing and then expect to be rewarded for that .

The same thing is taught in some false teaching cults that claim to be Christians. Faith in Jesus as God and Savior alone saves. I trust Jesus to take me to heaven. If I were to say |I trust Jesus and my work |I would be trusting in my self. |God doesn't need my hep to save me. He takes me to Heaven for free because He loves me and wants to show me how awesome He is. I'm not rewarded with Heaven eternal life is a gift I freely received from |God based on |His love and |His forgiveness, not my own work. Based on what you say takes you to Heaven your religion is no different from Catholics Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses Faith plus works as a way to go to heaven leads people straight to hell.


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No one is except whom Allah said will . That is why we do good and avoid evil . If everyone were sure to go to heaven eventually , there won't be a reason for good deeds and no reason to avoid evil deeds . And as I already explained , we combine love , fear , and hope .

As a Christian their are excellent reasons to do good or is loving God not a good enough reason to avoid evil and do good. Furthermore, I can now be like God. Why wouldn't I want to imitate my Father He is awesome. You simply don't know what its like to be free its sad but even your mind is so enslaved you can't conceive of a good reason to do good and avoid evil beyond your selfish and evil motive to save your self and earn, or should I say bribe, your way into heaven. I'm sorry but God demands perfection for people to enter heaven and the few good things you may think you do can never take away your sins.

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While there is a huge difference between the "sins" of the prophets and the sins of the rest of mankind , yes , no human is sinless because no one is perfect except the almighty himself . And we don't say prophet Muhammad is "perfect" as in the sense he's flawless , but as in that he is the best of mankind . In the end , it's probably just a misconception about the term .
Their is no difference in terms of sins in God's eyes all sins are the same. If I break one commandment I'm guilty of breaking them all. Furthermore, to think about sin is the same as doing it as Jesus said if I lust after a woman I've committed adultery in my Heart. Their is only one kind of perfect some muslims claim |Mohammed was perfect. All Muslims don't have the same beliefs but I hope you don't say that he was perfect because that is not what you believe and to teach some one that is to disguise the truth.

 
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Like I said , go ahead and sin all you like since you'll go to heaven for sure . And don't bother with any good deeds .

Again you don't know what its like to be free. But its awesome to be free after a lifetime in slavery to sin. I don't want to let sin rule me. I Like having God control me.
   

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You mean all the prophets according to YOUR book . And that's why they did adultery , killed , and worshiped other than Allah . But we declare that they are innocent of what you falsely describe .
Its sad but you really only have one Prophet in the |Bible we can compare the words of One Prophet to countless others and by them we are assured it is all |Gods word because All of Gods words through prophets are beautifully and intricately interwoven through out all the books of the Bible. From Genesis to revelation it doesn't Contradict and the pinnacle is Jesus God in Human flesh. I feel sorry for you because you have no other person to compare your book or your prophet to. Its sad because in reality you do you are supposed to compare the quran to the bible to see if it is true like this surah says

"And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers. And be not thou of those who deny the revelations of Allah, for then wert thou of the losers. S. 10:94-95"

 But sadly you know the books contradict, and instead of taking the obvious solution to reject the one inconsistent prophet versus the at least 30 others you trust the one that goes against all of God's prophets and say the bible has been changed. This is a shame.

   


 
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Both . In addition to hope
Sorry but fear is not greater then love. We are told love is greater than all. Something that is very sound logically and needs no further proof. because true love (God's love) involves God and the person loving and some one else.

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I already explained that we combine all three in our worship . But still , if I know I'd go to hell for eternity , would I be considered selfish if I do something to prevent that ? Especially on such a day :

80:33 But when there comes the Deafening Blast 34 On the Day a man will flee from his brother 35 And his mother and his father 36 And his wife and his children, 37 For every man, that Day, will be a matter adequate for him.

|Yes you are still selfish it's obvious you are only interested in saving yourself that is still so sinful yuor so used to being a slave of sin you probably can't see it, but compare it to Jesus giving up His |Godly powers for a time to live as a servant not to be a king on earth but to serve and save me (someone who used to hate Him) taking the punishment that |I deserve From God the |Father in my place . That's to great.

 
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NOTHING we ever do is enough respect to Allah almighty . That is why there is mercy . Still , that doesn't mean to NOT do good .

I understand what your saying, but it still doesn't fulfill the most merciful statement. The mercy you describe is at best half mercy. I will keep saying it you do good so you can get Allah's mercy or go to heaven, but that is not doing good at all that selfish motive makes it sin.   
 

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Have you no shred of shame ? YOU'RE the one who said :

|Jesus is not merely a man that is what I was responding too You said Jesus was a mere man How can He create everything. Jesus Is God and He became a man.

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Twist it however you like , that's imperfection . There can be an Afro Asian who has the characteristics of both , but that's because both are human and finite . You want me to believe that the unlimited is the same as the limited . Two contradicting statements cannot be both right .

Jesus being in the flesh is not imperfection its limited but not imperfect. I'm not talking about superiority like Jesus was the perfect man he was the not the strongest or the most handsome. He was, however, morally perfect which is what |God cares about not whats on the outside but the moral condition of a mans heart. He was like Adam born without sin, but he continued in that state of moral perfection all his life.

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This statement of yours isn't worth a penny . He may not have been perfect - perfection is only for Allah - but he's STILL the best of mankind . Being best doesn't mean you're flawless . You're trying to play with words here and you fail .

Their is only one kind of perfect sorry the one playing with words is you. You've rightly said that the only one who Is perfect is God, but that is only Half true. See only Gods(Father Son and Spirit) are innately perfect, but you see I am also perfect otherwise how can an imperfect being enter into a perfect place in the presence of The perfect Gods? I am perfect but not innately. I was born a sinner and god has perfected me by cleansing and forgiving all my sins. This is another theological problem that you have to address how imperfect people enter Heaven.

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Why do I have the feeling a simple Google search will prove this wrong ? Further more , that's YOUR belief . And how on Earth would God place himself on the scale of judgement ?! 3 in 1 and 1 in 3 ! Do you see the problem here ?!

Jesus is perfect. I'm sorry that a google search brings up all the bad things Mohammed did, but Jesus stood in front of many people all of which wanted to catch Him in sin and said which one of you convicts |Me of sin. Everyone shut up then because he lived the word of God day in day out no one could ever bring any charge against Him so they made up a charge and He was wrongfully convicted of a crime He didn't commit. If they couldn't find sin in Him back then what chance do we have.The only logical thing to do would be to read the New Testament see all his words and actions He never sinned. All prophets but Jesus sinned sorry but its true read the Bible you'll see.

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A nice way to turn around the actual issue . You just said he died . That means he's finite . That means he lacks power . Being human in itself is imperfection . Why would I worship someone imperfect ?

He doesn't lack power He laid down His life of His own accord. He wasn't all powerful while a man He became a man and gave up His godly attributes, omniscience omnipotence, While retaining what is Called Gods communicable attributes, in other words God's moral perfections. Again innate moral perfection is Divine so He is perfect and always is God, besides that He is no longer a man He is Glorified and now Has all the Godly attributes He always Had He is back With God the Father. You don't honor God if you dont Honor Jesus to the same degree as God the Father. 

While Jews lack a lot of faith and Christians lack a lot of asking for proof , we have both . When we're convinced with proof of Islam , we believe whatever it says by faith . But when the foundation of the religion itself is impossible to understand , what proof is there ?!

God makes my religion understandable at one point I was just like You I thought the bible was impossible to understand and I hated i, but God saved me and made me understand the truths of it. Of course it impossible to understand it's from God and only He reveals the Understanding. That's not to say their is no proof their area ton of prophecies in the bible that are still coming true. Not to be a jerk, but Israel becoming a nation and owning the land God promised them after being scattered for 2000 years and nearly being annihilated by Hitler is one of many prophecies in the |Bible. This isn't a thing we look to history for this happened in our generation and God continues to protect it from being overthrown. Constant war in Israel is another thing that's in the |Bible it is still happening today. I tell you another thing they are going to rebuild the temple of THE LORD that's for sure too its in the Bible believe it its going to happen. No proof, the change in my person is proof enough to me I am no longer a slave to sin.

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Allah isn't just about love . And love isn't in the 99 names . Look them up .


That wasn't my point, but like I said Love is greater then all and it permeates all God does in my life so I keep that perspective When dealing with others. I've seen the names before I have muslim freinds I'm here to better understand Islam thanks you've been a great help I hope someone else reads this too and responds