Author Topic: Urgent: Thamud Location  (Read 14489 times)

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Offline Sam663

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Urgent: Thamud Location
« on: June 03, 2015, 06:17:05 AM »
Question posted by TG12345(Male Christian)

A breif introduction
"And remember when He made you successors after Aad and settled you in the land, and you take for yourselves palaces from its plains and carve from the mountains, homes. Then remember the favors of God and do not commit abuse on the earth, spreading corruption."

—Qur'an, Surah 7 (Al-A'raf)

According to Ibn Khatir(RA):
Thamud came after `Ad. They dwelled between the area of the Hijaz (Western Arabia) and Ash-Sham (Greater Syria).

"According to several passages in the Qur’an, the site was already inhabited in the third millennium BC by the Thamudic tribes. Lihyanite, Minaic and Thamudic inscriptions which have been found on the site, are evidence for an occupation in the first millennium BC."
http://www.islamicurbanheritage.org.sa/english/MadanSaleh.aspx

Now we know for sure that Thamud existed as a civilization before the 8th century BC, but the majority of the vestiges within the Al Madinah Region of Saudi Arabia date from the Nabatean kingdom (1st century AD). Thamud also cannot be equated with the Edomites (the predecessors of Nabataeans) at Petra. Saleh(PBUH) was born before Abraham and the Edomites were a Semitic race.

But Ibn Umar narrated that while the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was passing by Thamud's houses on his way to the battle of Tabuk, he stopped together with the people there. the people fetched water from the wells from which the people of Thamud used to drink. They prepared their dough (for baking) and filled their water skins from it (the water from the wells). The Prophet of Allah (PBUH) ordered them to empty the water skins and give the prepared dough to the camels. Then he went away with them until they stopped at the well from which the she camel (of Salih) used to drink. He warned them against entering upon the people that had been punished, saying "I fear that you may be affected by what afflicted them; so do no enter upon them."

So where are those sites that Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) referred to in the above hadith? And if they are completely destroyed then why would the mountain-carved homes of the Thamud be completely annihilated, yet the mountain-carved tombs of the Nabataeans still remain in place?

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Why do scholars like Ibn Kathir and Yusuf Ali claim that they are around at Madain Saleh? Could this be true that Edomites and then Nabataeans were the later generations of Thamud people?
Art of carving houses out of the rocks started with the Thamud, and thousands of years later, in the second and first centuries B.C., it was considerably developed by the Nabataeans? If the sites related to Thamud were in an advanced state of decay(7:78 Whereupon the earthquake overtook them, and so they lay prostrate in their own homes.) in the time of Prophet Mohammed(PBUH), is it plausible
they were completely destroyed( couple of earthquakes and a storm or two) in a few centuries after?

Offline nivera79

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Re: Urgent: Thamud Location
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2015, 05:33:55 AM »
As salam 3likum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.
Here you do have lots of information about people of Thamud, Petra, nabateans.. http://www.harunyahya.com/en/books/904/Perished-Nations/chapter/3295/Thamud--

Offline Sam663

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Re: Urgent: Thamud Location
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2015, 10:24:41 AM »
As salam 3likum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.
Here you do have lots of information about people of Thamud, Petra, nabateans.. http://www.harunyahya.com/en/books/904/Perished-Nations/chapter/3295/Thamud--

That's why i will never read Harun Yahya again.


Offline Sam663

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Re: Urgent: Thamud Location
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2015, 10:25:48 AM »
According to UNESCO vestiges in Mada'in Saleh and Petra date from the Nabatean kingdom ( 312 BCE-1st century AD), while according to Hadiths the site of Al-Hijr had already been inhabited by the 3rd millennium BC by Thamud.

Why did Prophet Muhammad say that do not enter but weepingly (the habitations) of these people, when all the vestiges were built by Nabateans? The question was raised by a missionary and I certainly don't have any answer.

Offline Sam663

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Re: Urgent: Thamud Location
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2015, 10:26:18 AM »
I would request brother Osama to shed some light on this one please!

Offline submit

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Re: Urgent: Thamud Location
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2015, 12:22:08 AM »
Quote
—Ibn Khaldun, Muqaddimah Chapter II Bedouin civilization, savage nations and tribes and their conditions of life, including several basic and explanatory statements, 21 As long as a nation retains its group feeling, royal authority that disappears in one branch will, of necessity, pass to some other branch of the same nation ( note amalekites are the Imliq). — From Prophets and Patriarchs.

When Thamud in turn was destroyed, the remaining sons of Iram were called Arman — they are Nabateans. The origin of the Nabateans remains obscure, but they were Aramaic speakers, and the term "Nabatean" was the Arabic name for an Aramean of Syria and Iraq.

Location of Thamud is said to be scattered between Madinah and Syria

Offline Sam663

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Re: Urgent: Thamud Location
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2015, 01:04:48 AM »
Quote
—Ibn Khaldun, Muqaddimah Chapter II Bedouin civilization, savage nations and tribes and their conditions of life, including several basic and explanatory statements, 21 As long as a nation retains its group feeling, royal authority that disappears in one branch will, of necessity, pass to some other branch of the same nation ( note amalekites are the Imliq). — From Prophets and Patriarchs.

When Thamud in turn was destroyed, the remaining sons of Iram were called Arman — they are Nabateans. The origin of the Nabateans remains obscure, but they were Aramaic speakers, and the term "Nabatean" was the Arabic name for an Aramean of Syria and Iraq.

Location of Thamud is said to be scattered between Madinah and Syria


The question remains, where are Thamud's vestiges. As i aforementioned if the sites related to Thamud were in an advanced state of decay(7:78 Whereupon the earthquake overtook them, and so they lay prostrate in their own homes.) in the time of Prophet Mohammed(PBUH), is it plausible
they were completely destroyed( couple of earthquakes and a storm or two) in a few centuries after?

Offline Sam663

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Re: Urgent: Thamud Location
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2015, 08:49:34 AM »
Quote
—Ibn Khaldun, Muqaddimah Chapter II Bedouin civilization, savage nations and tribes and their conditions of life, including several basic and explanatory statements, 21 As long as a nation retains its group feeling, royal authority that disappears in one branch will, of necessity, pass to some other branch of the same nation ( note amalekites are the Imliq). — From Prophets and Patriarchs.

When Thamud in turn was destroyed, the remaining sons of Iram were called Arman — they are Nabateans. The origin of the Nabateans remains obscure, but they were Aramaic speakers, and the term "Nabatean" was the Arabic name for an Aramean of Syria and Iraq.

Location of Thamud is said to be scattered between Madinah and Syria


The question remains, where are Thamud's vestiges? As i aforementioned if the sites related to Thamud were in an advanced state of decay(7:78 Whereupon the earthquake overtook them, and so they lay prostrate in their own homes.) in the time of Prophet Mohammed(PBUH), is it plausible
they were completely destroyed( couple of earthquakes and a storm or two) in a few centuries after?

Offline submit

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Re: Urgent: Thamud Location
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2015, 09:23:35 AM »
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The question remains, where are Thamud's vestiges?

It might be at the exact same place or different. For ancient civilization in desert, they shall revolve around source of water. And if the source of water still exist, the location may still attract inhabitants even millenias later.

This is the 2000 b.c civilization rock carving in egypt.


For Thamud's carving on mountains being 1000 years older than egypt one, the carvings may have withered much
 

Offline Sam663

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Re: Urgent: Thamud Location
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2015, 10:19:22 AM »
Quote
The question remains, where are Thamud's vestiges?

It might be at the exact same place or different. For ancient civilization in desert, they shall revolve around source of water. And if the source of water still exist, the location may still attract inhabitants even millenias later.

This is the 2000 b.c civilization rock carving in egypt.


For Thamud's carving on mountains being 1000 years older than egypt one, the carvings may have withered much


But Al-Hijr is not in Egypt and water was still there in Al-Hijr.

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar (ra):
I bartered my property in Khaibar to 'Uthman (chief of the faithful believers) for his property in Al-Wadi(Qura). When we finished the deal, I left immediately and got out of his house lest he should cancel the deal, for the tradition was that they buyer and the seller had the option of canceling the bargain unless they separated. When out deal was completed, I came to know that I have been unfair to 'Uthman, for by selling him my land I caused him to be in a land of Thamud, at a distance of three days journey from Al-Madina, while he made me neared to Al-Madina, at a distance of three days journey from my former land.

 Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn `Umar said, "When the Messenger of Allah went to the area of Al-Hijr in Tabuk with the people, he camped near the homes of Thamud, in Al-Hijr and the people brought water from the wells that Thamud used before.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 10:21:26 AM by Sam663 »

Offline Sam663

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Re: Urgent: Thamud Location
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2015, 10:25:58 AM »
Notwithstanding, Nabatean were nomads, were just like the gypsy traders roaming the rest of the world. So how did they manage to build such a magnificent city cut out of solid rock? Moreover, how could they have become such excellent town planners and carving niches and doorways into solid rock faces? Jordanian government says these mysterious people have left no written records of their times.

That's the biggest load of bull i have ever heard since the evolution story. What if the Nabateans didn't build Petra?

Offline Sam663

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Re: Urgent: Thamud Location
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2015, 10:47:00 AM »
They attribute these baalbeks in Lebanon to Romans, even though Romans didn't build it, neither they had the men power.





These are the megalith structures in Peru that archaeologists falsely attribute to Inca civilization. Look at the size of the rocks. Anybody in their right mind can see that average human beings just don't have the strength to build this kind of fortress.



Everybody looks like ants. They are telling us that nomads of 5 to 6 foot in height carve niches and doorways into solid rock faces using chisels.




There's something really fishy here, i think they are deliberately attributing it to Nabateans .
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 10:52:31 AM by Sam663 »

Offline Sam663

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Re: Urgent: Thamud Location
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2015, 10:55:43 AM »
Quote
The question remains, where are Thamud's vestiges?

It might be at the exact same place or different. For ancient civilization in desert, they shall revolve around source of water. And if the source of water still exist, the location may still attract inhabitants even millenias later.

For Thamud's carving on mountains being 1000 years older than egypt one, the carvings may have withered much

This might be of interest to you:
Archaeologists are still trying to unravel the history of the Nabataeans, which in large remains unknown. Just how they managed to make the rapid conversion from a Nomadic tribe to the builders of great cities is mind-blowing, and has led some to doubt whether they were in fact the original creators of these great cities and monuments. 


http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-general/oldest-arabic-inscription-provides-missing-link-between-nabatean-and-arabic-writing

Offline nivera79

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Re: Urgent: Thamud Location
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2015, 07:56:31 PM »
As salam 3likum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.
Here you do have lots of information about people of Thamud, Petra, nabateans.. http://www.harunyahya.com/en/books/904/Perished-Nations/chapter/3295/Thamud--

That's why i will never read Harun Yahya again.
¿Why? ¿What is wrong with this article? (I know Harun is not very accurate sometimes).

Offline Sam663

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Re: Urgent: Thamud Location
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2015, 05:08:18 AM »
Al-Hijr is about nine miles northeast of today’s town of al-’Ula, so that throws Petra out of the scenario.

What the visitor sees in Al-Hijr today are hewn hills recognized as tombs , only one chamber that has been found in the hills was large enough to house council. Nothing but solid rock lies behind the rest of the facades. There is no possibility that these were used as dwellings. Moreover all of the tombs date from the Nabatean kingdom (1st century AD) while Thamud came before Prophet Ibrahim.

The fact that Prophet Muhammad(saw) showed sahabas the well where the she-camel drank and confirmed that the people of Thamud had dwelled in the area but made no comment about the tombs indicates that he knew the rock structures were not related to any of the previous prophets. The only relation that these rock structures have to Thamud is that they were from a later period in the same geographical location.

As ALLAH(SWT) himself says:
10- Chapter: 14 , Verse: 9

Has not the account reached you of those before you, of the people of nuh and ad and samood, and those after them? none knows them but allah.