Author Topic: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an  (Read 57856 times)

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Offline StardustyPsyche

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There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« on: January 01, 2016, 06:30:10 pm »
There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an

The heavens and the earth were not created in 6 days. Qur'an 50:38
Science tells us the big bang happened 13,700,000,000 years ago and the Earth formed 4,600,000,000 years ago.

A clot of blood is not a stage in human development. Qur’an 23:13-14
Science documents the stages of development from egg and sperm to birth.  No blood clot stage.

Living things are not made from water. Qur’an 21:30
Water is Hydrogen and Oxygen.  Life also requires Carbon, Nitrogen, and Phosphorous for DNA.

There is no inviolable obstruction between fresh water and saltwater. Qur’an 25:53
When fresh water flows out to salt water it mixes with the salt water and becomes salty.  This sets up a somewhat stable salinity gradient.

And so it goes.  All the asserted scientific miracles turn out to be exactly what you would expect of a 7th century man who was limited to common knowledge available to leaders at that time based upon naked eye observations and a few guesses, often mistaken.


Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2016, 09:54:26 pm »
Hi StardustyPsyche,

Welcome to the board.  I ask Allah Almighty to remove the ignorance that you're suffering from, and to open up your heart to His Divine Truth, Islam.  Ameen.

Either you are fabricating lies on the Glorious Quran, or you are ignorant.  I invite you and the reader to visit the following links that should insha'Allah thoroughly demonstrate the Glorious Quran's Overwhelming Scientific and Numerical Miracles:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/quran/my_04.htm

www.answering-christianity.com/bones_then_muscles_wrapping.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/sex_determination.htm

www.answering-christianity.com/bringing_forth_its_waters.htm

www.answering-christianity.com/separation_of_salty_seas_waters_miracle.htm



The Quran's Ultimate Proof:

Furthermore, visit the following link to see some STUNNING NUMERICAL MIRACLES in the Glorious Quran.  By the way, in this article you'll find Allah Almighty's PROOF AND GUARANTEE to you as a non-Muslim that the Quran is indeed Divine.  This is what Allah Almighty Himself Said.  Visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm

May Allah Almighty guide you to the Right Path of Islam.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2016, 04:07:27 am »
Calling me a either a liar or ignorant is not the warmest welcome I have ever received  :D

I have been to the links you offer and many others by other authors making essentially the same assertions you are making regarding the supposed scientific or numerological miracles in the Qur'an.

You have not addressed, specifically, any of my refutations of those assertions.  Simply calling me ignorant or a liar is not a reasoned argument.

So, below are some more refutations of the assertions you and other authors are making.  I invite you to specifically address the actual arguments my words make.  Links to further groundless assertions do not constitute a rational exchange.

The skies and the earth were not once one mass, they were not split asunder. Qur’an 21:30
The big bang had been expanding for 9,100,000,000 years before the Earth was formed in one tiny part of it.

Suggesting something is smaller than an atom is not atomic theory. Quran 43.3
Greek atomists had some very clever evidences for atoms.  The obvious suggestion is that they too can be split.  Protons can be divided, and now people are working on dividing quarks.  Asserting divisibility is no miracle, it is simple human logic.

The universe was not made from smoke. Quran 41:11
7th century man knew smoke but not what it was made of, small bits unburned living matter, usually from plants, sometimes from animals.  That is not what the universe was made from.

Iron from above is simple human observation, not a miracle. Qur’an 57:25
Meteorites are most easily found in open areas, such as desert and ice covered landscapes, because a rock in the middle of an area that has no other rocks is easy to spot and must have fallen from the sky.  Meteors containing iron are the most easily identified sort because they feel so much heavier than ordinary rocks for any given size.



Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2016, 12:55:15 pm »
Quote
I have been to the links you offer and many others by other authors making essentially the same assertions you are making regarding the supposed scientific or numerological miracles in the Qur'an.

In the links that I gave you, we have Western scientists' discoveries and quotations posted there along with scientific pictures that fully demonstrate the Glorious Quran's Miracles.  What you have given us is empty talk.  And your points on the big bang and iron was sent down from space, the Glorious Quran's Miracles had thoroughly discussed at:

www.answering-christianity.com/hot_gas.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/earth.htm


To the reader, again, please visit the following links to see the Glorious Quran's STUNNING Scientific and Numerical Miracles, and to see thorough refutations the anti-Islamic claims that were made by him and others:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm



No response to the Numerical Miracles:

Notice how he avoided responding to the Numerical Miracles in the second link.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2016, 08:04:03 am »
Brother Osama, it is becoming very apparent that you seem incapable of forming your own words in a conversation that specifically address the actual points of the individual you are supposedly conversing with.

Rather, your only response is to send links to the words of others.  I have found that when an individual cannot explain a subject in his own words then that individual does not understand the subject under discussion.

To be evidence of a miracle the text must convey information beyond the capacity of a 7th century man to observe, count, or easily infer from ordinary observations.

Iron was known to fall from space by simple observation.  There is no miracle in writing “he sent down iron”.  Anybody who picked up an iron meteorite could easily observe that iron has been sent down.  Your links do nothing to counter this simple fact.  Thus, the mere observation that iron was “sent down” is no evidence for a miracle.

To be a numerical miracle the numerical construction must be beyond the capabilities of a 7th century man to make.  I gave the example of how easy it is to describe a 950 year old man in 950 letters, as any student is capable of doing.  Yet, this construction of words at the level of a high school writing assignment is fallaciously put forth as proof of a miracle. 

“StardustyPsyche is a really great man who lived in the USA for 58 years”  Note, I have described a 58 year old man using 58 characters, therefore I am god!!!


Offline submit

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2016, 09:47:33 am »
Al-Quran are Words of covenant and inside it comprise signs from the Creator for mankind as they wonder why cant they extend their life/youth or prevent death, was there a reason to their existence on earth.

Quote
One of the signs is about How God will meet His creations on The Day of Resurrection. Prior to that, we will have end of days.

This is a link of reference about shape of universe from NASA (http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html).

Almighty God said He is the One that controls the expansive universe. That's why if we search for facts on the final stage of expansion @ End of Days. We can't find any possibilities of it to happen. Thus the argument of Universe expanding-forever remains true for human as human will never know when it will end.

But ,  Almighty God said,

"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
(The Qur'an, 51:47)

"Verily, the Hour is surely coming. But I will to keep it hidden, that every soul may be rewarded for that which it strives (to achieve)." [The Qur'an 20:15]

Almighty God explanation on end of days about what will happen to our flat universe.

The Day when We will fold the heaven like the folding of a [written] sheet for the records. As We began the first creation, We will repeat it. [That is] a promise binding upon Us. Indeed, We will do it. (The Qur'an, 21:104)

Indeed , this is a great verse from the Divine Creator reminding us to always prepare before the coming of Judgement Day.



Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2016, 05:02:23 pm »
Quote
To be a numerical miracle the numerical construction must be beyond the capabilities of a 7th century man to make.  I gave the example of how easy it is to describe a 950 year old man in 950 letters, as any student is capable of doing.  Yet, this construction of words at the level of a high school writing assignment is fallaciously put forth as proof of a miracle. 

“StardustyPsyche is a really great man who lived in the USA for 58 years”  Note, I have described a 58 year old man using 58 characters, therefore I am god!!!

The Numerical Miracle in the Glorious Quran is the following:

1-  Chapter Nuh (Noah) has determined how to determine what is an actual drawn letter and what is a vowel from the Glorious Quran's characters.  Once we counted the drawn letters only, we found them to be exactly 950 letters.

2-  Taking this standard of determining which is a letter and which is a vowel from all of the Glorious Quran's characters, and applying it to the Glorious Quran, we found literally THOUSANDS OF STUNNING PATERNS and Miracles.

3-  And building a numerical table that gives numerical values to the Drawn Letters from most occurring to the least (value 1 given to the most occurring, value 2 given to the second most occurring, and so on....), and applying these numerical values to calculate the numerical value of the Glorious Quran's Drawn Letters and Words, we found THOUSANDS OF STUNNING NUMERICAL RESULTS.

4-  Look at the Number 19 Miracle and the BASMALA and Noble Verses 74:30-37 to start with.  Then come back with your "refutation" if you have any.  Again, visit this link:

www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm



This is a warning to you:

Please read my links first.  This is a warning to you.  Don't come back with shallow nonsense and lies such as I don't have answers for you and I am only giving you links to avoid answering.  This shows that you didn't even open the links.  This is what your stupid trolls do.  This is where I am annoyed from you.  I've done THOROUGH work in these links.  I don't mind debating you in 1000 posts here.  But I do have a problem with doomed-to-Hell anti-Islamics just coming to our boards vomit their nonsense and ignoring our refutations.  And worst, not even read our refutations.  Just simply dismissing them by the wholesale.  If you're going to come here with an arrogant and disregarding attitude, then I'll disregard you from this whole board!  I have no respect for trolls.

If you are from this kind, then I'll ban you.  I don't have time for spammers.  I really don't.  If you're serious, then go through my articles before you comment on them.  Engage them directly, and I'll be happy to interact with you for as long as it takes.

I know that you come from a Bible background, where it is a corrupt book filled with scientific blunders and it is always in an open season for mockery and insults:

www.answering-christianity.com/bible_scientific_absurdities.htm

I know that you suffer from this disease.  But this is the Quran!  It's not the Bible.  Believe me, IT IS NOT THE BIBLE!  In fact, the Quran came to rescue the Truth that exists in the Bible.  It came to confirm it and filter your Scriptures from all of the man-made nonsense that was injected into them:

www.answering-christianity.com/deuteronomy4_2.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/warning.htm


And you have attacked your Bible with your Universe was created in 6 days point.  Because the Bible makes the same claim, except with the error of saying that GOD Almighty RESTED on the seventh day.  GOD Almighty doesn't rest.  This is a human-animal concept (of getting tired and then resting).  Islam came and corrected the Bible in this also.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2016, 04:29:54 am »
Brother Osama,
1-  Chapter Nuh (Noah) has determined how to determine what is an actual drawn letter and what is a vowel from the Glorious Quran's characters.  Once we counted the drawn letters only, we found them to be exactly 950 letters.
SP-Ok, so that tells me the author of that passage counted up the number of drawn letters and adjusted the wording until the number of drawn letters equals 950.  No miracle required, just simple counting and human editing.

2-  Taking this standard of determining which is a letter and which is a vowel from all of the Glorious Quran's characters, and applying it to the Glorious Quran, we found literally THOUSANDS OF STUNNING PATERNS and Miracles.
SP-If human beings are capable of discovering these numerical patterns then human beings are capable of editing these patterns into the text, no miracle required.

3-  And building a numerical table that gives numerical values to the Drawn Letters from most occurring to the least (value 1 given to the most occurring, value 2 given to the second most occurring, and so on....), and applying these numerical values to calculate the numerical value of the Glorious Quran's Drawn Letters and Words, we found THOUSANDS OF STUNNING NUMERICAL RESULTS.
SP-Please see 2 above.

4-  Look at the Number 19 Miracle and the BASMALA and Noble Verses 74:30-37 to start with.  Then come back with your "refutation" if you have any.  Again, visit this link:
SP-I would refute your claim if I could figure out what it is.  All I see is that you cited a few simple mathematical expressions, a couple numbers that do not even equal each other, and you call it a miracle.  What exactly is your claim that somehow these numbers could not have arisen by ordinary human activity?
The Glorious Quran has 114 Chapters. The sum of those Chapters is 6555 (1+2+...+114 = 6555). There are also 6236 Noble Verses in the Glorious Quran. Now, IF YOU ADD EACH CHAPTER # with the number of its Verses, then you get a list of numbers. So 1 (first Chapter) + 7 (# of its Verses) = 8. Do this for all Chapters.

1-  The sum of the odd numbers from the list = 6555.
2-  The sum of the even numbers from the list = 6236.
SP-Ok, so those unequal numbers are some sums  of even numbers and odd numbers.  How is that impossible to have arisen from ordinary human activity?

…we for example see that Noble Surah (Chapter) Nuh (Noah) is written in exactly 950 Noble Letters [1] (see also the scanned images below) and Allah Almighty Said that Prophet Nuh lived among his people for 950 years in the same Noble Surah, then there is nothing random about this one.
SP-Indeed, not random, rather the intentional work of a human editor who crafted the words with those numbers.  No miracle required.

Allah Almighty's two Divine Promises to the people of Israel's destruction were both combined written in 75 Words, and each Promise was written in 75 letters
SP-OK, it seems the human being who wrote those words liked the number 75 and crafted the words to fit, no miracle required.

The following images are my calculation, and they end up exactly with 2185, which equal to 19 X 115:
SP-So what?  The factors of 2185 are
1, 5, 19, 23, 95, 115, 437, 2185 so
1 X 2185 = 2185
5 X 437 = 2185
19 X 115 = 2185
23 X 95 = 2185
How is any of that in any way a product of divine miracle by necessity?  What exactly is your claim to these numbers somehow being necessarily beyond human capacity to generate?

If you are from this kind, then I'll ban you.
SP-That would not surprise me.  I have been banned for saying that the ancient Jews stole the land we now call Palestine or Israel using genocidal invasion.  That makes me a bigot, a troll, and a liar, except for one little thing, that is exactly what the books of Moses in the bible say.  I would not be surprised if you do the same with respect to the texts of Islam.

I have been banned by Robert Spencer, Pamela Geller, and PZ Myers.  Muslim Matters posts a fraction of my words.  David Wood blocks about half my words.  So called “freethought” blogs mostly block me.  Most moderators on most blogs will block or ban anybody who can articulate well-reasoned challenges to their positions.  The typical blog is a mutual admiration society.  This safe space video is both hilarious and accurate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXQkXXBqj_U

If you wish to learn what is wrong with your positions and thereby grow as a human being you will engage me.  If you are a coward who only speaks with people who already agree with you then you will ban me.  Many people have the physical courage to fight and die for what they believe, but few have the intellectual courage to engage in critical self-examination of their beliefs with a person capable of articulating the flaws in those beliefs.  We shall see what stuff you are made of.

I know that you come from a Bible background
SP-I am an atheist.  You know less of me than you think you know.  I realize I know nothing of you.  A wise man approaches a stranger as an unknown.

Believe me, IT IS NOT THE BIBLE!
SP-Why should I believe you?  I do not ask you to believe me.  I make my arguments on the merits.

And you have attacked your Bible with your Universe was created in 6 days point.
SP-The OT is actually worse than the Qur’an.  The OT is a horror show.  It is most certainly not mine.  I am not suggesting you are in general a bigoted man, you probably make efforts to approach individuals you meet with equanimity.  But your deep-seated prejudices are nevertheless coming to light in your false attributions of the Bible to me.

GOD Almighty doesn't rest.
SP-Thank you my brother Osama!!!  That is eminently rational.  Of course the almighty, if there were such a thing, would not rest.  What a preposterous notion the biblical 7th day is.


Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2016, 05:18:25 pm »
Brother Osama has apparently spent enough of his time in writing articles and debating with other people, so probably for this reason, he prefers to give links to his articles and let critics argue on specific points from those articles instead of just making blanket statements of denial.

Although, I don’t agree with the way Brother Osama “welcomed” you because he himself advises to “not insult or offend any non Muslim members”, he probably drew those conclusions because of the kind of arguments that you made, some of which, if I’m not missing something, were blatant fallacies.

The following is from my limited understanding and reasoning which can be flawed.

-   “The heavens and the earth were not created in 6 days. Qur'an 50:38”
The word translated as ‘days’ in this verse: “Ayyam”, can also mean ‘Periods’. The ‘Shakir’ translation of the Qur’an uses the word ‘Periods’. Whether you term this as convenient or not it does not disprove the Qur’an.

-   “A clot of blood is not a stage in human development. Qur’an 23:13-14”
“Clot of blood” is not the only way this part of the verse can be translated. Others have translated it to a “clinging clot”. The article Brother Osama Abdullah linked to above, goes into more detail on this: http://www.answering-christianity.com/bones_then_muscles_wrapping.htm

-   “Living things are not made from water. Qur’an 21:30”
You are committing the fallacy of incorrect inference here. It’s like if I say that humans have a brain, a heart and a stomach; it doesn’t mean I’m saying that humans don’t have a liver, pancreas or intestines.

The Qur’an doesn’t say that living things are made of ONLY water, meaning that other things are possibly included but water is a certainty, which was proved (from what I’ve read) by the discovery of water in all living cells. Also, the Qur’an claims that human beings are also made of clay, not just water which would fulfil the requirement for “Carbon, Nitrogen, and Phosphorous for DNA”. This particular “Clay” claim is too ambiguous for most people to consider a miracle, so it is usually not included under the heading of “Scientific Miracles”.

-    “The skies and the earth were not once one mass, they were not split asunder. Qur’an 21:30”
Because of accumulated empirical evidence the Big Bang Theory is considered the likely explanation of the fact of expanding universe. Because of cosmic expansion it is highly likely that “an expanding universe might be traced back in time to an originating single point” of extreme density and temperature. In other words, all of the universe (the present skies and the earth) at some point in the past accumulated together at a single point.

Quote
“… If galaxies are moving away from us, reasoned Hubble, then at some time in the past, they must have been clustered close together.”
Source: http://home.cern/about/physics/early-universe

-   “Suggesting something is smaller than an atom is not atomic theory. Quran 43.3”
When the Qur’an talks about knowledge people probably knew in the 7th century, the critics argue that there is nothing significant here, even though, according to scholarly consensus, Muhammad didn’t know how to read or write, probably didn’t travel much – in which case all of this “common” knowledge (like the merging of two seas) would have been stories that he heard from others – therefore, if Muhammad was a person who so casually used to include stories that he himself had no observational proof for and for which he only had the word of strangers, there would’ve been an extremely high probability that “his” book would have included many obvious mistakes, not like the equivocal ones, critics come up with, which are mostly, if not always straw man fallacies.

And on the other hand, when the Qur’an makes a claim that 7th century Arabia didn’t know about (like the smaller than an atom claim) the critics argue that it was an “obvious suggestion” or “it is simple human logic”. It is pertinent to note here, that if science hadn’t discovered smaller particles than an atom then the very same critics would have been claiming that this is a mistake in the Qur’an. Call it a guess or whatever, but it turned out to be true. A “guess” more improbable for a 7th century, illiterate Arab tribesman.
These “guesses” individually are not representative of the divine nature of the Qur’an but act only as hints . Only when they are collectively considered does the probability of them being a mere co-incidence becomes highly unlikely.

-   “The universe was not made from smoke. Quran 41:11”
Shakir’s Qur’an translation has translated the word as vapour. Google translate also translates the word to “fume” which can easily mean “Vapour” “Smoke” or “Gas”.

Quote
“In the first moments after the Big Bang, the universe was extremely hot and dense. (…) It took 380,000 years for electrons to be trapped in orbits around nuclei, forming the first atoms. These were mainly helium and hydrogen, which are still by far the most abundant elements in the universe. 1.6 million years later, gravity began to form stars and galaxies from clouds of gas.”
Source: http://home.cern/about/physics/early-universe

Numerical Miracles

Although unlike some other Muslims, I don’t believe that the numerical “miracles” of the Qur’an are absolute proofs for the divinity of the Qur’an, I don’t deny that they are still of huge importance. As with many things in history there is some degree of uncertainty, in such cases the Occam’s Razor principle is helpful: “Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.”

The Qur’anic revelation happened in parts. Simultaneously, different verses belonging to various chapters of the Qur’an were getting revealed to Muhammad. Therefore, at the same time different chapters remained incomplete. During that same time, Muhammad’s followers were being tortured, he was experiencing the loss of his loved ones (family and friends), himself facing persecution, migrating from his home, constantly being a teacher for his followers, creating a new legal and spiritual system, fighting wars with the disbelievers, sending missionaries to foreign lands and kings, spending a lot of time on his prayers and fasting, being a constant political leader, judge, educator, ambassador and labourer for his community. In all that, Muhammad who couldn’t read or write created these mathematical novelties and the most amazing thing for me to believe is that he forgot to tell anyone about them.

Furthermore, the interesting relationship between some words and their related words (by being opposites or some other obvious relationship) also would have been extremely difficult to pull off in such circumstances. From what I’ve read these relationships were found only after the Qur’an’s index was made available in 1945 due to years of work by a man and his students.

Additionally, the most significant of these numerical happenings is the fine, fragile relation between the chapter numbers, their verse numbers and the total number of verses in the Qur’an. One hypothesis would be that Muhammad intentionally somehow designed this (keeping all the above mentioned difficulties in mind) and chose not to tell anyone about it. Muhammad could have easily told his followers about it and told them that it was a fine divinely inspired relationship which was supposed to help them make sure that not a single verse of the Qur’an is missing or extra. Why would a person risk such a finely designed relationship, which undoubtedly would have required huge amounts of effort, to be so easily forgotten? In-fact, if I’m not mistaken, it took about thirteen centuries for this connection to be finally found.

Moreover, there are scholars (non-Muslim) of Muhammad’s life, like William Montgomery Watt, who assert that even although they are not in a position to conclude whether Muhammad’s inspirations were divinely inspired or just a product of his own unconscious functioning, what they do believe in, is that Muhammad was indeed a sincere person.

Quote
“Only a profound belief in himself and his mission explains Muhammad's readiness to endure hardship and persecution during the Meccan period when from a secular point of view there was no prospect of success. Without sincerity how could he have won the allegiance and even devotion of men … His sincerity in this belief must be accepted by the modern historian, for this alone makes credible the development of a great religion.”
Source: Watt, Montgomery, Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman. Oxford University Press, 1961. From p. 232 + The Cambridge History of Islam (1970), Cambridge University Press, p.30

In such a situation, if there is indeed a divine being and if that being wanted to leave a sign for His believers regarding the preservation of His book, a thousand years after His prophet had died, the above mentioned mathematical relationship would have been a pretty nice way to do it. Keeping all the information we have about Islam, this appears to be the most likely or believable hypothesis.

Regards,

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2016, 10:55:11 pm »
As'salamu Alaikum brothers Ahmad and Stardusty,

Dear brother Ahmad, thank you very much for your valuable response.  And thank you for reminding me to be more welcoming and responsible.  May Allah Almighty bless you for the good advise, akhi.  Ameen.

Dear brother Stardusty, I apologize for being cold.  You are welcomed to post your thoughts on this board as you please.  I won't be a coward who only speaks with the people that agree with him.  LOL, we on this board are opposite from this :).

I will insha'Allah start replying to your points either tomorrow or by this weekend.  I look forward to engaging you.  You seem to be an intelligent man.  May Allah Almighty open your heart to Islam.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2016, 11:00:17 pm »
Brother Ahmad,
Thank you very much indeed for your long and thoughtful reply.

If you wish to interpret the creation story of Allah to be “6 periods” you have rendered the words of Allah meaningless.  There is no predictive value in the word “period” as a measure of time.  No miracle indicated

There is no “clinging clot” stage in human development.  If “clot” is the best description of a developing human being that one can articulate why call him Allah?  Surly the all-knowing creator of humanity can do better than any illiterate attendant to a miscarriage in describing the products of a terminated pregnancy.  You do realize that is all the Qur’an does, don’t you?  How is describing the products of a miscarriage in simplistic terms indicate a miracle?

Living things are made only partly from water, you say, but that is not what Allah said through his messenger.  Apparently you are calling the word of Allah incomplete and unclear.  In truth the simplest observation is that water is essential to life.  Yet a vague and incomplete statement of this most obvious fact is somehow a miracle in the mind of Brother Osama and so many Muslims.

Ok, so the universe was made from smoke, or a fume, or gas, or vapor.  This is how the all knowing speaks clearly and miraculously?  How exactly are these vague and poorly defined alternatives indicative of a miracle?

You go on to speak in very general terms about fragile numerical relationships and many speculations about Muhammad.  Well, fine, if you enjoy thinking about such things that is ok, but that kind of generalized speculation is no evidence of a miracle of any kind.

Actually
23 X 95 = 2185
is also a true expression, so who knows, maybe Allah really wants us to pay attention to the number 23 or the number 95, not the number 19. Numerology is rife with fanciful speculations.  I have seen nothing in Brother Osama’s links or anywhere else remotely requiring divine construction.

What is the most believable hypothesis?  The one we have evidence for.  I have libraries full of evidence that human beings can manipulate words and numbers in great quantities and create vastly intricate and extensive sets of numbers in connection with words.  I have pictures of human beings performing arithmetic calculations.  I have witnessed human beings performing arithmetic calculations.  I am a human being who has performed arithmetic calculations.

No such evidence exists for a supernatural manipulator of numbers.  But please do send me the link to the video if anyone ever catches miraculous math in progress.

Sorry Brother Ahmad, I really do not take any pleasure in causing distress in others, and from time to time I know my words have caused distress in the hearts of Muslims I have communicated with.  Reason tells us there are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an, as uncomfortable as it might be to hear me say so.


Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2016, 09:47:18 pm »
Osama Abdullah and StardustyPsyche, I’m glad I was able to help. The following is again according to my limited understanding and reasoning which can be flawed.

-   “If you wish to interpret the creation story of Allah to be “6 periods” you have rendered the words of Allah meaningless.  There is no predictive value in the word “period” as a measure of time.  No miracle indicated”
Only as meaningless as any other verse dealing with knowledge we don’t yet have. A few centuries ago “living things created from water” was similarly meaningless. This could be alluding to six distinct phases that the Universe went through up to the time Earth became habitable, or something entirely different. A far as I remember, I have never seen any Muslim scholar try to push this verse as a miracle. It is interesting mostly in the context that it conforms (or rather doesn’t contradict) to modern scientific understanding and contrasts directly to the Bible’s version of six (commonly understood as) 24 hour days idea. Additionally, it also contradicts the critics who claim that the Qur’an is plagiarised because it was able to exclude stories such as these (plus the Earth being flat idea) into its text.

-   “There is no “clinging clot” stage in human development…”
I doubt that it would have been very productive for God to use terms like the fallopian tube or the uterine wall while addressing people of 7th century Arabia. Using common terminology understandable to the people was the logical thing to do. Also, according to what I’ve read, these initial stages are only observable through a microscope.

-   “Living things are made only partly from water…”
In this context, the only thing the messenger said was that living things are created from water, nothing more. The meaning that water is the ‘only’ constituent of living things is a human interpretation, as far as I know, there is no evidence to suggest that was what the messenger meant. As I said before, fallacy of incorrect inference. The same fallacy which is used by ant-Islamists to show that when the Qur’an talks about fighting the disbelievers, it is actually talking about fighting ‘ALL’ the disbelievers.

Regarding completeness, if by ‘incomplete’ you mean that God should have told us all the elements that living things are made of, then I suppose according to this definition as far as we have understood God’s book until now it can be called as “incomplete” but, from what I know, this was not the objective of this book. Regarding clarity, in my opinion, this verse is pretty clear. It is not a fault with the Qur’an if people make fallacious interpretations for it.

Water being essential for life is a far cry from making the claim that “all living things are made from water”. If I tell you about a man made from tin, you will probably think about the tin-man from “Wizard of Oz” i.e. a man made entirely (or at-least obviously) from tin. If I talk about a creature of fire, a person’s imagination will likely conjure up a walking, talking body of fire. Tell me, when you look at yourself in the mirror or when you look at other animals, is the first thought that comes to your mind: “Hey, I’m made from water, or that animal is made from water”? I highly doubt that. Although apparently, just by looking, a person can come to the conclusion that animals could have been created from clay, but ‘created from water’ is definitely not an obvious or even a probable guess.

-   “Ok, so the universe was made from smoke, or a fume, or gas, or vapor…”
Again, it wouldn’t have been very understandable if God had stated that He created the galaxies from hydrogen and helium plasma. Additionally, although this description sits well with modern science other incorrect explanations that a 7th century tribesman could have easily come up with and which would have sounded much more plausible to the people of those times weren’t used.

For example, Prophet Muhammad could have said something like: “God made the heavens and the Earth from a bright and magnificent golden shimmering liquid. Just like liquid metal is allowed by God to be given form and used for the benefit of mankind, God created the concrete Earth from a liquid. And then God turned to the heavens and just like a liquid evaporates by His command, He willed the liquid to rise up and create the air around you and the heavens above you.”

Another example could have been: “In the beginning the universe was a lump of hard affluence and from that affluence, God carved out the Earth like a sculptor carves out a model or like a potter who carves out a vase. And then He turned his attention to the lingering affluence and decreed it to become into the heavens and the stars and so it transpired.”

There are several spectacular but incorrect combinations that could have been used to state this creation of the galaxies, but the fact that the one way it was actually stated is so near to actual scientific understanding is highly unlikely. At worst you can call it a guess and in connection with everything else a very improbable guess.

-   “…many speculations about Muhammad…”
I don’t think it is correct to disregard the conclusions of scholars (Muslim and non-Muslim) who have spent years researching the life of Prophet Muhammad as just ‘speculation’.

Consider the scenario that if there is actually a divinity who wanted to include signs of His existence for later generations by including mathematical relationships in His books, they had to be simple enough that humans could decipher them because otherwise there wouldn’t be any point to them. It took thirteen centuries, but this is exactly what happened with the Qur’an. Unfortunately, with this scenario, the theory of humans creating it themselves also arises. From what I can understand there is no way of getting out of it. Logically speaking there is nothing that could have been done to circumvent this question. There is no falsification test for this theory. The most that can be done is to show that the probability of that actually having happened is extremely small; which was possibly done by making it take thirteen centuries to find those relationships.

I personally, try to think of these happenings in more accurate terms like probabilities and likelihoods instead of miracles. Although, I personally don’t deny that these mathematical relationships can be thought up by humans but because of the related circumstances surrounding this phenomena like the highly unusual nature of the Prophet’s life, other extraordinary Qur’an verses, the fulfilled prophesies regarding the Muslims etc. all of them, sure, can be regarded as just some grand insane planetary co-incidence, but the probability of that happening just by chance, is again tremendously remote. Additionally, there have been other religious books written in history even changed through their histories but still a similar plethora of extremely improbable mathematical relationships was never found.

As a final note, I would like you to consider the following written by Dr. Gary Miller:
Quote
“Dilemma of Applying Reason

Almost all of us have been faced with the questioning of a child by repeating one word over and over. He can be very frustrating to us as he asks Why? If you put a knife beyond his reach, he wants to know, Why? When you explain it is sharp, he asks "Why?" And so you explain, in order to cut fruit, and he asks, Why? And so it goes

It illustrates the dilemma of applying reason. What we have to do when we apply reason is first to set standards of proof. We decide for ourselves, "What will I be satisfied with if I find such and such and so and so that constitutes for me a final proof?" We have to decide on that first.

What happens though, is that on the really important issues, the philosophical matters, thinkers set standards and eventually they may arrive at their standards. They may arrive at the point which they say would constitute a proof. But then they ask for a proof of the proof.

 Setting Standards

The key to avoiding this endless dissatisfaction is to satisfy ourselves about standards first; to satisfy ourselves that such and such are a list of criteria that constitute proof, satisfying proof, and then we test the subjects that we examine.”
Source: http://www.discoveringislam.org/dr_gary_miller.htm

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2016, 11:19:28 pm »
Brother Ahmad,
Very well then, you apparently agree with my fundamental claim, there are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an.

You explain each of my objections by explaining that Allah was using words understandable by 7th century man.  This seems an odd assertion given the notion that Allah was presumably speaking eternal truths for all men of all times to come.  Nevertheless, you make no claims that I have noticed of any evidence of any scientific miracles in the Qur’an.

Your primary claim seems to be that when the words of the Qur’an are translated in their broadest sense they are at least not incompatible with our modem understandings of science.

So then we seem to agree, there are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an, or do you have a specific claim to any?

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2016, 05:03:41 am »
-   “…you apparently agree with my fundamental claim…”
No, I don’t agree. What I am saying is that for essentially anything that could have been included in the Qur’an, there would’ve always been some person in the world who was going to say: not good enough. This is the reason creationists won’t believe that the Earth is billions of years old or why “HIV Truthers” won’t accept that AIDS is caused by HIV. No amount of evidence is going to be enough for them. Whatever evidence they are provided with, they just say that it’s just a co-incidence or that more proof is still required. For such people, I would suggest they follow the Occam’s Razor principle.

-   “… This seems an odd assertion given the notion that Allah was presumably speaking eternal truths for all men of all times to come…”
OK, I’m going to give an example for exactly this, but I’m pretty sure you are still not going to be satisfied. In the starting verses of the Qur’an’s 30th chapter, God talks about a major defeat that the Byzantines had suffered at the hands of the Persians and predicts decisive Byzantine victory within a period of the next three to nine years, which actually happened even though the Persians had reached up to Egypt. Now, the defeat of the Byzantines that the Qur’an was referring to had occurred in an area for which the Qur’an uses the term “adna al-ard”. This was understood to mean as “the nearest land” because the Roman defeat took place in the nearest Roman land to the Arab region. But this term can also mean “the lowest land” as this meaning is available in Arabic dictionaries and is used as such in several verses of the Noble Quran. Interestingly, now we know that the area of the Dead Sea basin, in addition to being the nearest Roman occupied land to the Arabian Peninsula, is also the lowest point of dry land on earth.
Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20140504150013/http:/www.onislam.net/english/health-and-science/faith-and-the-sciences/464520-the-fulfilled-prophecy-of-surat-ar-rum.html?the_Sciences=

Now again you are going to argue that this is just a co-incidence, but the fact remains, in terms of probability this possibility is extremely unlikely. Think of all the variables and possible permutations involved here.

-   “Your primary claim seems to be that when the words of the Qur’an are translated in their broadest sense they are at least not incompatible with our modem understandings of science.”
When the Qur’an talks about all living things made from water, or that the heavens and Earth were once joined together or that celestial bodies rotate or other similar instances, the similarity to actual science definitely does not appear to be in the “broadest sense”. For me, it is pretty specific.

On a final note, perhaps if you can explain exactly what is the evidence that has convinced you to believe that there is no God, might give me an idea of what evidence you actually deem as satisfactory or believable.

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2016, 05:06:15 am »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Ahmad,

Please visit this link: www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm

In it, you'll see me quoting 7 encyclopedic dictionaries that detail the meanings of the Noble Words used in the Glorious Quran.  The Words are Scientific Miracles.  I will thoroughly refute Stardusty here.  The Glorious Quran has many STUNNING Scientific Miracles.  I will thoroughly demonstrate all of this in my upcoming response, insha'Allah.

The main section to the Glorious Quran's Scientific Miracles is at:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2016, 10:20:11 pm »
Brother Ahmad,
Ok, so you do not agree with my claim that there are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an, yet I did not notice you make any specific claims of a scientific miracle in the Qur'an.

“On a final note, perhaps if you can explain exactly what is the evidence that has convinced you to believe that there is no God, might give me an idea of what evidence you actually deem as satisfactory or believable.”

Thank you very much indeed for raising this point.  I have been meaning to get into this and I appreciate you bringing it up.

What is a scientific miracle in an ancient text?

First let me say what it is not:
A statement that could have been a simple observation available at that time.
A vague statement that is open to multiple interpretations as may be conveniently fit into facts found out later, as is commonly a tactic used by so called psychics.
Statements that are incorrect in their most direct meaning and can at most be considered possible if a very broad interpretation is used.
A statement written as a prediction but actually addressing events prior the writing of the earliest extant copy of the alleged prediction.
A numerological association that could have been intentionally constructed by human beings deeply dedicated to such a task.

Here is what a scientific miracle in an ancient text would look like if there were such a thing.  I cannot give you a specific example in an actual text because there are no scientific miracles appearing in any ancient text:
A statement commensurate with the knowledge and articulation capacities of an infinite god. such that the messenger clearly is stating such detail so completely out of his contemporary knowledge base that the only possible explanation is that some superhuman intelligence must have told the prophet what to say. (In this case the most likely explanation would be a visitation by space aliens, not a god, but we do not necessarily have to go into that).

Here are a few examples invented for the purposes of illustration:
Gabriel told me today to recite for all the world to hear that there are 92 fundamental atoms to be discovered on this Earth, and 5 of them are essential to the construction of a structure within our bodies too small for us to see, yet it contains the instructions needed to construct each of us.

Gabriel told me to tell you folks that diseases such as smallpox and the common cold are caused, not by demons, but by tiny creatures that are too small for us to see.  When these tiny unseen creatures invade our bodies we become sick.

Gabriel told me to say to everybody that the points of light in the night sky are just like our sun, but a thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand paces distant, except the wandering lights that shine with a steady light, which are actually worlds like our own Earth.  All these worlds and our earth move around the sun in orbits with the fundamental shape of a curve that is expressed as x divided by a times x divided by a plus y divided by b times y divided by b all to equal one.

Gabriel gave me another message for you folks that energy equals mass times the speed of light times the speed of light.  I have no idea what that means but he said one day humanity will understand it and use it to build weapons of terrible destructive power.

As for what convinced me there is no god I would like to emphasize your well-chosen words, that I am convinced.  I do not make the strong claim of being able to absolutely prove there is no god, since I am unable to prove the universal negative.

I turned away from my Christian bible lessons at an early age.  As a child I asked questions like how did all the little creatures make it from Australia and Antarctica and America to the ark, and back again?  Where did the wives of the children of Adam come from?  Why would an infinitely powerful being need to rest?  If god already knows everything in the future what good does it do to pray, is he going to maybe change his mind?  Why would an all knowing god act like such a murderous monster in the time of Moses but then tell us to turn the other cheek a few thousand years later?

Having rejected Christianity for its many absurdities I realized all the religions and all the gods were all just silly inventions of superstitious men.  I was 12 and in the many years since I have continually reexamined my adolescent self-realization of the absence of any god.  I must confess a degree of pride in having come to this realization at a relatively early age.

I am not sure if As'salamu Alaikum is the correct form as a valediction so I will close in my own vernacular
Peace Bro

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2016, 11:34:13 am »
Brother Ahmad,
Ok, so you do not agree with my claim that there are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an, yet I did not notice you make any specific claims of a scientific miracle in the Qur'an.

“On a final note, perhaps if you can explain exactly what is the evidence that has convinced you to believe that there is no God, might give me an idea of what evidence you actually deem as satisfactory or believable.”

Thank you very much indeed for raising this point.  I have been meaning to get into this and I appreciate you bringing it up.

What is a scientific miracle in an ancient text?

First let me say what it is not:
A statement that could have been a simple observation available at that time.
A vague statement that is open to multiple interpretations as may be conveniently fit into facts found out later, as is commonly a tactic used by so called psychics.
Statements that are incorrect in their most direct meaning and can at most be considered possible if a very broad interpretation is used.
A statement written as a prediction but actually addressing events prior the writing of the earliest extant copy of the alleged prediction.
A numerological association that could have been intentionally constructed by human beings deeply dedicated to such a task.

Here is what a scientific miracle in an ancient text would look like if there were such a thing.  I cannot give you a specific example in an actual text because there are no scientific miracles appearing in any ancient text:
A statement commensurate with the knowledge and articulation capacities of an infinite god. such that the messenger clearly is stating such detail so completely out of his contemporary knowledge base that the only possible explanation is that some superhuman intelligence must have told the prophet what to say. (In this case the most likely explanation would be a visitation by space aliens, not a god, but we do not necessarily have to go into that).

Here are a few examples invented for the purposes of illustration:
Gabriel told me today to recite for all the world to hear that there are 92 fundamental atoms to be discovered on this Earth, and 5 of them are essential to the construction of a structure within our bodies too small for us to see, yet it contains the instructions needed to construct each of us.

Gabriel told me to tell you folks that diseases such as smallpox and the common cold are caused, not by demons, but by tiny creatures that are too small for us to see.  When these tiny unseen creatures invade our bodies we become sick.

Gabriel told me to say to everybody that the points of light in the night sky are just like our sun, but a thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand paces distant, except the wandering lights that shine with a steady light, which are actually worlds like our own Earth.  All these worlds and our earth move around the sun in orbits with the fundamental shape of a curve that is expressed as x divided by a times x divided by a plus y divided by b times y divided by b all to equal one.

Gabriel gave me another message for you folks that energy equals mass times the speed of light times the speed of light.  I have no idea what that means but he said one day humanity will understand it and use it to build weapons of terrible destructive power.

As for what convinced me there is no god I would like to emphasize your well-chosen words, that I am convinced.  I do not make the strong claim of being able to absolutely prove there is no god, since I am unable to prove the universal negative.

I turned away from my Christian bible lessons at an early age.  As a child I asked questions like how did all the little creatures make it from Australia and Antarctica and America to the ark, and back again?  Where did the wives of the children of Adam come from?  Why would an infinitely powerful being need to rest?  If god already knows everything in the future what good does it do to pray, is he going to maybe change his mind?  Why would an all knowing god act like such a murderous monster in the time of Moses but then tell us to turn the other cheek a few thousand years later?

Having rejected Christianity for its many absurdities I realized all the religions and all the gods were all just silly inventions of superstitious men.  I was 12 and in the many years since I have continually reexamined my adolescent self-realization of the absence of any god.  I must confess a degree of pride in having come to this realization at a relatively early age.

I am not sure if As'salamu Alaikum is the correct form as a valediction so I will close in my own vernacular
Peace Bro

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2016, 12:17:10 pm »
Brother Osama,
First, please allow me to apologize for the duplicate post.  I received several server error messages, possibly due to a problem on my end, and it seemed like my post did not go through the first time.

I have gone through a number of the links you provide (not all because there are links within links so following them all to their conclusion would take a great deal of time).

I just cannot find anything that is in any way indicative of miraculous origins.  I have education and experience in math and science.  I really enjoy math and I have a collection of calculus books I have read and worked from.  I opened up some scans that show your own application of numerology to the Qur'an.

I see the pictures of the nebulae, your citations about human development, and a number of other claims you make about miracles of science in the Qur'an.

They are all easily explained as either simple observations well within the capabilities of 7th century men, or a few general inferences lacking anything close to miraculous specificity, or numerological constructions well within the capacity of 7th century men to construct.  Do you have any specific citations of the Qur'an that are not of this kind?



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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2016, 12:44:08 pm »
Quote
They are all easily explained as either simple observations well within the capabilities of 7th century men, or a few general inferences lacking anything close to miraculous specificity, or numerological constructions well within the capacity of 7th century men to construct.  Do you have any specific citations of the Qur'an that are not of this kind?

As'salamu Alaikum Stardusty,

You should step back a little bit and understand what Allah Almighty is telling you in the Glorious Quran.  Allah Almighty has responded to the likes of you in the Holy Book by giving you the Number 19 Miracle, especially that you exist today in the advanced computer age.  He, the Almighty Said in Noble Verses 74:30-37, that He based the Glorious Quran on the Number 19 Miracle for the following reasons:
   
(a)-  As a trial to the disbelievers.
(b)-  To help strengthen the Believers' faith more.
(c)-  To assure the disbelievers that Islam is Divine.
(d)-  Because it is one of the Greatest Signs and Miracles!



#5 is for you:

[074:030] Over it are Nineteen.

[074:031] And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; AND WE HAVE FIXED THEIR NUMBER ONLY (1) as a trial for Unbelievers,- (2) in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, (3) and the Believers may increase in Faith,- (4) and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, (5) and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth God intend by this ?" Thus doth God leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than awarning to mankind.

[074:032] Nay, verily: By the Moon,

[074:033] And by the Night as it retreateth,

[074:034] And by the Dawn as it shineth forth,-

[074:035] This is but one of the MIGHTY ONES (Miracles).

[074:036] A warning to mankind,-

[074:037] To any of you that chooses to press forward, or to follow behind;-


So my advise to you, as your fellow human is:

1-  To step back.
2-  Remove the arrogance of the atheists from you.  You're used to arguing against books that are corrupt and full of scientific blunders.
3-  See the Glorious Quran with a different lense and attitude.

This is a Divine Book from the True and Sovereign GOD Almighty of this Universe.  You are messing with your Salvation and you are messing with Fire.  You said you were 68 years old.  This means you have passed the age 40, which is the Age of Wisdom:

www.answering-christianity.com/mercy_of_allah.htm

We've given you the STUNNING NUMERICAL MIRACLES of the Glorious Quran, and we've given you STUNNING PROPHECIES, and we've given you STUNNING Scientific Miracles.  You dismissed all of them as nothing.  I hope you see the Message of Allah Almighty for you in Noble Verses 74:30-37, above.  And again, visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links


I hope this helps, Stardusty.  Feel free to always share your thoughts.  I just hope that you change your attitude towards the Glorious Quran, because BELIEVE YOU ME, it is not a mere book.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2016, 02:50:23 pm »
Brother Osama,
I will accept the Qur'an as divine when I become aware that a part of it is by necessity so advanced in its content as to have been impossible to construct except by a god.

Your attempts at numerology are easily explained as, at most, intentional constructions well within the ability of 7th century men to construct.

I have read your link
http://www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm
previously and addressed it previously.  You are offering no new information and no specific rebuttals to my disproof of your claims.  Therefore your claims to miracles remain conclusively refuted by me.

Muslims of the 7th century were highly capable in numerology.  They knew how to count, multiply, divide, write, and perform some very extensive arithmetic calculations.

Perhaps the simplest of your examples to attribute to ordinary human mathematics is your assertion of the 950 miracle, stated in the link you gave me:
“Noble Surah (Chapter) Nuh (Noah) is written in exactly 950 Noble Letters”
“Prophet Nuh lived among his people for 950 years”
Ok, fine.  It would be a very simple matter for any author to write a chapter about Noah that uses “950 noble letters”.  All the author has to do is write a description of Noah and count the letters, just like you did.  If you can do it so could he.  If there are not enough letters all the author need do is write more sentences.  If too many letters then eliminate sentences. 

All the author needed to do is keep writing and counting and editing until the desired “950 noble letters” were used.  This is a very simple process that requires no god.

Your other numerological claims to miraculous origins fail for the same reason, they are within the capabilities of 7th century men to intentionally construct, and therefore of no value as evidence for a miraculous origin claim.

Other than your failed claims to numerological miracles do you have any other specific claims to scientific miracles in the Qur’an?  I have read them on your links and refuted them explicitly above.  You have offered nothing in the way of specific rebuttals to any of my refutations.

Do you have any specific rebuttal to the fact that the description of human development found in the Qur’an is nothing more than an oversimplified and largely erroneous as well as highly incomplete description, easily obtainable by simply examining the products of miscarriage or contents of a perished pregnant female?

Care to explain the patently false assertion in the Qur’an you inexplicably cite as a scientific miracle?
[055:019]  He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together:
[055:020]  Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/separation_of_salty_seas_waters_miracle.htm
Sometimes there appears to be a barrier between dissimilar masses of water, but in fact the Qur’an makes a gross error in saying the water does not transgress such an apparent barrier.  In truth the waters do mix at the apparent barrier.

Here is an interesting video of such a barrier far from Muhammad and therefore a miracle candidate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnz_bxyG3gU
Now here is a much more highly produced video of the same phenomenon, and the narrator goes on and on about the waters not mixing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXRW18ty0Ag
But at the end, she contradicts herself and says they will merge in time!

So, the truth is that the water from melting glaciers contains materials that make if green, and where that mass of water meets the Pacific Ocean water, which is deep blue, there appears to be a boundary.  But that apparent boundary is where the waters mix.  Of course the waters mix, they have no place else to go.  All outflows from a continent must mix with the ocean water.

Mariners have long known that when sailing along a coast if the water becomes fresh when they are near the mouth of a large river.  The rainwater or ice melt water flows out to sea and mixes with the saltwater of the ocean but the concentration of salt decreases as one approaches the mouth of the river.

Muhammad was a wealthy traveling businessman after he married his first wife.  Then he went on to conquer and rule all of Arabia.  The simplest explanation is that he gained knowledge of these apparent barriers from his seafaring trading contacts who mistakenly thought these apparent barriers meant the waters don’t mix.

Therefore the error of the Qur’an easily explained.

No miracles and no Allah required.

“Glorious Quran, because BELIEVE YOU ME, it is not a mere book.”
Sorry, brother Osama, you have given me no evidence by which I ought to believe you.

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2016, 05:16:19 pm »
As'salamu Alaikum Stardusty,

Please pay attention to this simple example to understand that the 950 Letters in Surat Nuh could not have been fabricated by any man:




The Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, - peace be upon him, - NEVER CLAIMED this Miracle.  In fact, he never claimed ANY OF THE SCIENTIFIC MIRACLES in the Glorious Quran.  So you can't say that he intentionally made it.  And he couldn't have made it because the DRAWN LETTERS from VOWELS were not yet determined at the time.  Allah Almighty hasn't revealed it to the Prophet through Angel Gabriel as they were both writing the Glorious Quran on paper. 


The ORIGINAL Quran was Kept Safely with Muhammad and Ali:

There is also strong evidence that Caliph Ali was with them, and was a keeper of the Glorious Quran, since he was to Muhammad as Aaron was to Moses, and we know in the Glorious Quran, the THIKR OF MOSES came down to both Moses and his WAZEER Harun (Aaron).  Peace be upon all of them.  And in the Quran, Allah Almighty called the Quran the THIKR that was sent down to Muhammad:

[025:035]  (Before this,) We sent Moses The Book, and appointed his brother Aaron with him as minister (WAZEERA وزيرا);

[021:048]  In the past We granted to Moses and Aaron the criterion (for judgment), and a Light and a Message (THIKR ذكرا) for those who would do right,-

Allah Almighty inspired both Moses and Aaron:
[010:087]  We inspired Moses and his brother with this Message: "Provide dwellings for your people in Egypt, make your dwellings into places of worship, and establish regular prayers: and give glad tidings to those who believe!"

The Quran is the THIKR:
[015:009]  We have, without doubt, sent down the Message (الذكر); and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

Ali to Muhammad is as Aaron to Moses:
www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ali+was+to+muhammad+as+aaron+was+to+moses

Ali had the SELF of Muhammad:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali
http://ismailignosis.com/2015/07/07/imam-ali-declared-the-successor-of-prophet-muhammad-in-sunni-hadith-literature/
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=caliph+ali+is+the+self+of+prophet+muhammad


In the Glorious Quran, the SELF can enter multiple people:

[089:027]  (To the righteous soul will be said:) "O (thou) soul SELF (النفس), in (complete) rest and satisfaction!
[089:028]  "Come back thou to thy Lord,- well pleased (thyself), and well-pleasing unto Him!
[089:029]  "Enter thou, then, among My devotees!
[089:030]  "Yea, enter thou My Heaven!


Allah Almighty spoke about the SELF in the singular, and then Commanded it to enter HIS DEVOTEES in the plural.  Now whether one wishes to agree with this or not, that's their problem.  But the fact does remain that according to OUR SUNNI HADITHS, Ali was created from Muhammad's NAFS (Self).  Perhaps a Nafs of Prophethood and/or of High Stature.  The details about the NAFS (self) and ROUH (Spirit) remain in the unknown, and they are part of the World of Command of Allah Almighty.  And Allah Almighty did tell us that only little was communicated to us.  Please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/quran_creator_or_created.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/holy_spirit.htm

 
Ali did probably receive Divine Inspirations from Allah Almighty like Aaron did in Noble Verse 10:87.  But the Divine Revelations, the THIKRs, were only sent to Moses and Muhammad.  Aaron and Ali were only Ministers.  For more details, please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac11.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2286.msg10434.html#msg10434
www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2087.msg9018.html#msg9018
www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2087.msg9019.html#msg9019
www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2087.msg9024.html#msg9024
www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2087.msg9048.html#msg9048
www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/board,42.0.html





The Scientific Miracles for the Muslims in Advanced Ages:

Allah Almighty left it for us, the Muslims and people in general who live in the Advanced Ages such as ours today, to discover the Quran's STUNNING Numerical and Scientific Miracles today under our advanced computer technology where we can do split second searches, counts and analysis.  Allah Almighty did Promise:

"We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and INSIDE THEIR SELVES, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things?  (The Noble Quran, 41:53)"

Please visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/sci_prophecy.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac3.htm#prophecies
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links


And why should this be a surprise to anyone?  The Quran is a Divine Miracle.  Islam's Miracle is the Glorious Quran Itself.  And this Divine Miracle is for all times and all generations and all places till THE DAY OF JUDGMENT COMES.  Allah Almighty did Say:

[075:016]  Move not thy tongue, O Prophet, with the revelation of the Qur'an that thou mayest hasten to preserve it.
[075:017]  Surely, upon US rests its collection and its recital.
[075:018]  So when WE recite it, then follow thou its recital.
[075:019]  Then upon US rests the expounding thereof.








The Number 19 Miracle:

I already gave you Allah Almighty's declaration about the Number 19 being one of the Glorious Quran's MIGHTY MIRACLES.  So you can't come back and say that the Quran has no Scientific Miracles in it, or the Quran makes no reference to them.  No, they're there, and they were mostly made for the latter Muslims to discover.

So your following quote is incorrect:

Quote
ll the author needed to do is keep writing and counting and editing until the desired “950 noble letters” were used.  This is a very simple process that requires no god.


And we've already shown you other STUNNING Numerical Miracles in the Glorious Quran.  One of them is:

The Glorious Quran has 114 Chapters. The sum of those Chapters is 6555 (1+2+...+114 = 6555). There are also 6236 Noble Verses in the Glorious Quran. Now, IF YOU ADD EACH CHAPTER # with the number of its Verses, then you get a list of numbers. So 1 (first Chapter) + 7 (# of its Verses) = 8. Do this for all Chapters.

1-  The sum of the odd numbers from the list = 6555.
2-  The sum of the even numbers from the list = 6236.


Every time we give you a mind-blowing Miracle you arrogantly dismiss it.  And your following claim is also incorrect:

Quote
Your other numerological claims to miraculous origins fail for the same reason, they are within the capabilities of 7th century men to intentionally construct, and therefore of no value as evidence for a miraculous origin claim.

These are not just simple arithmetic.  The Glorious Quran's TEXT IS A MIRACLE.  This is what you are dismally failing to see.  Again, visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm

You keep missing the point!



The Other Scientific Miracles:

As to the Scientific Miracles in the Glorious Quran, all you are doing is dismiss the Miracles, despite that I've THOROUGHLY SHOWN the definitions of the Noble Words using 7 encyclopedic dictionaries, and showed how they were used even before Islam in the Arabs' poems, and how they were used after Islam in the Hadiths and in the Glorious Quran.  Visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm

So no, the Miracles were not just simple human observation.  The Miracles of:

1-  Embryology.
2-  Biology.
3-  Astronomy.
4-  Geology.
5-  Mathematics
6-  Archeology.
7-  AMPLE STUNNING Prophecies.

They are all there detailed in the Glorious Quran.  Visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links



The earth is spherical and is traveling (moving) in space:

Furthermore for you, the Glorious Quran stated in multiple Noble Verses that the earth is:

1- Spherical.
2- Suspended in Space.
3- Rotating around itself. (emphasis on dahaha and its derivatives)
4- Is traveling in Space.

5- Also, all celestial bodies are يعرجون Yaa'rujoon (traveling in orbits) in space.  The countless orbits in the Universe, and the day-layer reveals the sun's brightness.  This video is about Noble Verses 32:5, 34:2, 57:4, 70:3-4 and others, and the Arabic words عرج , عروج , معارج  and  معراج  that all refer to "going in an orbital and curvy path" in the Glorious Quran and our Islamic Texts.

Visit: www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2016, 08:03:06 pm »
“In fact, he never claimed ANY OF THE SCIENTIFIC MIRACLES in the Glorious Quran.  So you can't say that he intentionally made it.”
Right, Muhammad need not have constructed this numerological association.  All that is required is that some scribe prior to or including the scribe of the earliest extant copy of this passage constructed this numerological association.

Writers are well aware of the sounds the script represents.  If the script is absent the vowels in writing the reader mentally fills them in. If a mark is made to represent a vowel then that is an explicit representation of it.  Since you have derived a system of counting consonants and vowels then a 7th century man is capable of deriving the same system of counting consonants and vowels.

You might reply
[015:009]  We have, without doubt, sent down the Message (الذكر); and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
at my suggestion that a later author could manipulate the words in the Qur’an to his own liking.  That is a tautology or circular reasoning or begging the question.  You are using the asserted divinity of the Qur’an as evidence that it could not have been manipulated in a way to merely give the appearance of divinity.

“And he couldn't have made it because the DRAWN LETTERS from VOWELS were not yet determined at the time”  But the mark you call an Alif apparently was there at the time, so a human being could have constructed the same system of numerology as you have today.


“The Glorious Quran has 114 Chapters. The sum of those Chapters is 6555 (1+2+...+114 = 6555). There are also 6236 Noble Verses in the Glorious Quran. Now, IF YOU ADD EACH CHAPTER # with the number of its Verses, then you get a list of numbers. So 1 (first Chapter) + 7 (# of its Verses) = 8. Do this for all Chapters.

1-  The sum of the odd numbers from the list = 6555.
2-  The sum of the even numbers from the list = 6236.

Every time we give you a mind-blowing Miracle you arrogantly dismiss it.  “

What exactly is so mind blowing about 6555 odd numbers from a list and 6236 even numbers from a list?  In a list of numbers generated algorithmically from human writing one would expect roughly equal numbers of even and odd numbers.

I have looked at this about 6 times and I cannot even figure out what your claim is.  Of course, one explanation is that I am a really stupid guy, but my math grades and my technical successes tell me otherwise. 

It’s not arrogance so much as befuddlement as to what you are even claiming to be miraculous about these two roughly equal numbers.

“Again, visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm
You keep missing the point!”
Indeed, since I have visited that link many times and cut and pasted from it extensively above in order to comment on it and much of it does indeed seem entirely pointless to me.  But, I enjoy numbers in general so I keep scratching my head trying to figure out how you consider those relatively simple arithmetic expressions to be somehow necessarily of divine origin.

“So no, the Miracles were not just simple human observation.  The Miracles of:
1-  Embryology.”
I have noticed you do not really do much conversing on points I raise.  Mostly you just copy and paste links and lists I have already refuted.

For example, embryology.
Anybody can look at the products of miscarriage and say it is a “clot” or a “chewed thing”.

Your links completely fail to address this obvious refutation, and all the others I have made, so, sorry Brother Osama, but my assertion that there are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an stands utterly uncontested in any meaningful way by you.

But, please do tell me how the descriptions of “clot” or “chewed thing” could not have been made by simple observation of the products of miscarriage.


1-   Spherical.”
The Greeks measured the diameter of the spherical Earth, no miracle

2- Suspended in Space.
Where else would it be?  Most classical models have the Earth surrounded by some void or heaven or space.

3- Rotating around itself. (emphasis on dahaha and its derivatives)
Couldn’t find this in your below citations

4- Is traveling in Space.
Not in the below citations

5- Also, all celestial bodies are يعرجون Yaa'rujoon (traveling in orbits) in space.  The countless orbits in the Universe, and the day-layer reveals the sun's brightness.  This video is about Noble Verses
32:5,  the below is gibberish, what miracle is this nonsense supposed to be?  Is it a day, a thousand, or fifty thousand years?  The Qur’an claims to be clear, obviously another false claim.
Sahih International: He arranges [each] matter from the heaven to the earth; then it will ascend to Him in a Day, the extent of which is a thousand years of those which you count.

34:2, more gibberish
Sahih International: He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what ascends therein. And He is the Merciful, the Forgiving.

57:4,  this is worse than gibberish, it is just flat out wrong that the heavens and the Earth were made in 6 days.  Obviously, this is a Genesis retelling and Genesis gets it wrong wrong wrong.
Sahih International: It is He who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne. He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what ascends therein; and He is with you wherever you are. And Allah , of what you do, is Seeing.

70:3-4  more gibberish, no, the heavens and the Earth were not created in 6 times fifty thousand years
Sahih International: [It is] from Allah , owner of the ways of ascent.
The angels and the Spirit will ascend to Him during a Day the extent of which is fifty thousand years.


“and others, and the Arabic words عرج , عروج , معارج  and  معراج  that all refer to "going in an orbital and curvy path" in the Glorious Quran and our Islamic Texts.”
Really?  Where? 7 separate translations at corpus.quran.com make no mention of it in the passages you cite.

I know that for a devout Muslim is can be very unpleasant, even painful or upsetting to hear something they feel so deeply about called “gibberish” or “nonsense” or “simple observation”.  But, when we grow to be men we must deal with truth.

All your attempts at demonstrating a scientific miracle in the Qur’an are false.  All my refutations of your assertions stand utterly unrebutted by you.

I hope one day the light of reason shines though your fog of faith.

Peace Bro

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2016, 09:26:14 pm »
As'salamu Alaikum Stardusty,

I have added the following to my post above:

Allah Almighty left it for us, the Muslims and people in general who live in the Advanced Ages such as ours today, to discover the Quran's STUNNING Numerical and Scientific Miracles today under our advanced computer technology where we can do split second searches, counts and analysis.  Allah Almighty did Promise:

"We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and INSIDE THEIR SELVES, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things?  (The Noble Quran, 41:53)"

Please visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/sci_prophecy.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac3.htm#prophecies
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links




No Citations?

Quote
Couldn’t find this in your below citations

Did you even visit: www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm ?  Please do, and click on the links given to you.

Also, the Noble Verses that you quoted did use the Noble Arabic Words that I spelled out.  And I did thoroughly define them in the link that I just mentioned.



Your Hate of GOD:

Even in describing your situation in the Glorious Quran, Allah Almighty put it in a Scientific Miracle:

"Whomever GOD wills to guide, He renders his chest wide open to Submission. And whomever He wills to send astray, He renders his chest intolerant and tight, like one who climbs towards the sky. GOD thus places a curse upon those who refuse to believe.  (The Noble Quran, 6:125)"

"And even if We open to them a gateway of heaven, so that they ascend into it all the while, They would certainly say: Only our eyes have been covered over, rather we are an enchanted people. And certainly We have made strongholds in the heaven and We have made it fair seeming to the beholders.  (The Noble Quran, 15:14-16)"


"By the sun and its radiant light, and the moon that trails (and reflects) its light. By the day that magnifies and glorifies (جلاها) its brightness(The Noble Quran, 91:1-5)"

Please visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/space_pressure_in_noble_quran.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/sun_rays_miracle.htm




Your Fate:

Quote
All your attempts at demonstrating a scientific miracle in the Qur’an are false.  All my refutations of your assertions stand utterly unrebutted by you.

Mr. Stardusty, I am not sure if anything could convince you.  You are too stubborn.  Perhaps Allah Almighty has sealed your heart and mind, and YOUR FATE:

"Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).  (The Noble Quran, 2:18)"

"The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat- herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom(The Noble Quran, 2:171)"

"It is he whom God guides, that is on true Guidance; but he whom He leaves astray - for such wilt thou find no protector besides Him. On the Day of Judgment We shall gather, them together, prone on their faces, blind, dumb, and deaf: their abode will be Hell: every time it shows abatement, We shall increase from them the fierceness of the Fire.  (The Noble Quran, 17:97)"


[045:023]  Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire? God has, knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart (and understanding), and put a cover on his sight. Who, then, will guide him after God (has withdrawn Guidance)? Will ye not then receive admonition?

Please visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/islam.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/blessed_jesus.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_creating.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/convert_christians.htm


Peace to you as well.  I ask Allah Almighty to RE-OPEN your heart and mind, and to lead you or to continue to lead you to Islam.  Ameen.  Heaven and Hell are real, Stardusty.  They are no joking matter.  And you should humble yourself when you deal with the Divine Signs of Allah Almighty. 

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2016, 03:45:03 am »
Brother Osama,

You have accused me of hating god
“Your Hate of GOD:”
Please explain to me how one hates a thing that one is convinced does not exist.

“Did you even visit: www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm ?  Please do, and click on the links given to you.”
Yes, and I went to corpus.quran for each of the verses cited at that link.  I commented on each of them above.  They are a mix of gibberish and outright false statements.

“Mr. Stardusty, I am not sure if anything could convince you. “
Yes, there are evidences that could convince me.  Thus far you have presented none.  I know you feel you have.  Brother Osama, and I mean that truly, I do consider you as a brother in humanity, please realize, what you have presented in all your links and all your statements is so far removed from science that no infidel with a background in science education will find it even slightly persuasive.

You are not presenting science.  Not at all.  If you think you are then you are gravely mistaken.

“Please visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/islam.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/blessed_jesus.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_creating.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/convert_christians.htm
What does all this have to do with demonstrating scientific miracles in the Qur’an?

“Heaven and Hell are real,”
Ok, then please give me some real evidences for them.  Got any pictures?

The Christians say you are going to hell, you say the Christians are going to hell, and everybody says I am going to hell.  Thing is, nobody actually has any evidence hell actually exists, so that just does not frighten me.


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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2016, 04:13:59 am »
Brother Hamza has some things to say.  I found this by following your links  :)

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/does-the-quran-contain-scientific-miracles-a-new-approach/

Peace Bro

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2016, 04:48:32 am »
Brother Hamza has some things to say.  I found this by following your links  :)

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/does-the-quran-contain-scientific-miracles-a-new-approach/

Peace Bro

Thank you for the link, Stardusty, but it really doesn't refute a thing.  The brother said that he is uncertain about the Scientific Miracles, and also said that a growing number of Scholars and Academics are embracing this School; the school of the Glorious Quran does have ample and STUNNING Scientific Miracles in It.  So really, he has not refuted anything here.  And the growing number of scholars and academics adopting this school should give you a clear indication that there is something serious and real in the Holy Quran.

Furthermore, brother Hamza did not AT ALL address any of the Numerical Miracles, nor did he address the Number 19 Miracle, which Allah Almighty Said it is one of the GREATEST MIRACLES IN THE HOLY QURAN.  I already quoted that above.



Allah Almighty talked about the Scientific Miracles:

Also, and again, Allah Almighty left it for us, the Muslims and people in general who live in the Advanced Ages such as ours today, to discover the Quran's STUNNING Numerical and Scientific Miracles today under our advanced computer technology where we can do split second searches, counts and analysis.  Allah Almighty did Promise:

"We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and INSIDE THEIR SELVES, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things?  (The Noble Quran, 41:53)"

"...that it is the truth..." refers to the Glorious Quran being proven to be the Truth through the Scientific Signs that Allah Almighty will reveal in the Universe and in our Physiology, Biology and Embryology, and in the Numerical Miracles that all will prove that the Quran is indeed from our Creator, the Almighty.

Please visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/sci_prophecy.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac3.htm#prophecies
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links




Why not?

Why shouldn't Noble Verse 41:53 be considered a Divine Promise and Prophecy being fulfilled by Allah Almighty, Stardusty?  Why must every STUNNING Miracle and Prophecy be rejected according to you?  If the era of unveiling the Glorious Quran's Miracles, which we call today Scientific and Numerical Miracles, has begun, then why must you resist it and reject it as the infidels of old resisted and rejected the clear and evident and indisputable Truth and Signs and Miracles of Allah Almighty and his Prophets and Messengers, peace be upon all of them?  And worse, they even killed His Prophets and Messengers, and burned His Books.  And they called GOD Almighty's Miracles sorcery, magic, and lies.

I am telling you, Stardusty, Heaven and Hell are real!  The Glorious Quran tells us this.  And you are shipping yourself to the Doom of Hell with your stubbornness and blasphemies, by rejecting GOD Almighty, rejecting the Holy Quran, and rejecting Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

Yes, Heaven and Hell are VERY REAL!  Just like earth's pleasure, happiness, joy, pain, agony, bliss and fire are also real.  Heaven and Hell are real.  Why can't life be a little preview and/or demo for you and me by Allah Almighty about what to expect in the GRAND LIFE in the Day of Judgment?  Why must you chose the Doom of Hell when you have the Bliss of Heaven?  And this is no corrupt Bible or any other corrupt book claim.  The Glorious Quran has proven Itself over and over and over again to be the Divine Truth of GOD Almighty.  Allah Almighty called the Glorious Quran the Book that is "Muhaymin" (مهيمن, "Has all Authority above all") above all books.  See Noble Verse 5:48.  So why not accept It?  Why must you be on the side of the infidels?

Regarding the Holy Quran's Authority, please visit: www.answering-christianity.com/was_muta_immoral.htm

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2016, 02:28:00 pm »
As'salamu Alaikum akhi Dawud,

May Allah Almighty bless you.  But brother, as I requested before, please do not post the DNA and RNA stuff here, or any related nonsense here.  Taking partial letters from random words and say they are D and N and A is nonsense. Same with with RNA and NTRA and all other nonsense that you posted.  And I told you also that using this method, we can also extract the F*** word and any word we like!

Please do not spam this board with this nonsense, akhi.  And worse, please do not make a mockery out of the Holy Quran's Scientific and Numerical Miracles, akhi.  I already made this request before, dear brother, and removed these posts before.

Please present your case here as to why they should be allowed.  Let's discuss it here in the open.  Show me where I am going wrong, please.  Don't just impose them on us like this.

Either way, may Allah Almighty bless you for your efforts and sincerity.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2016, 03:34:05 pm »
As'salamu Alaikum akhi Dawud,

May Allah Almighty bless you.  But brother, as I requested before, please do not post the DNA and RNA stuff here, or any related nonsense here.  Taking partial letters from random words and say they are D and N and A is nonsense. Same with with RNA and NTRA and all other nonsense that you posted.  And I told you also that using this method, we can also extract the F*** word and any word we like!

Please do not spam this board with this nonsense, akhi.  And worse, please do not make a mockery out of the Holy Quran's Scientific and Numerical Miracles, akhi.  I already made this request before, dear brother, and removed these posts before.

Please present your case here as to why they should be allowed.  Let's discuss it here in the open.  Show me where I am going wrong, please.  Don't just impose them on us like this.

Either way, may Allah Almighty bless you for your efforts and sincerity.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

i will explain why you are wrong

you say

"Taking partial letters from random words and say they are D and N and A is nonsense. "


if Allah use DNA separated from existing words that would be weakness in the quran beacuse imagine words wich nobody would understand 1400 years taking valuable place in the quran, that would not be logical

so instead doing that, by using letters DNA incorpaorated in existing words is actually double information in same text, wich is for me is clear evidence that the text is divine.


imagine if i knew future and i want to give people proof that this is my book, so i give an example from ancient times about a good woman called Edna

beacuse i know future when science of DNA will be officially started, i put name of Edna 3 times wich is most in entire book

18:65 There was a good relgious woman called Edna, Edna helped poor people and relatives wich cause many people to follow Edna as good example in this life.

every body can understand simple text, both old and new generations, everybody, and i choose to use Edna name exactly at precise position in my book so it correspond to the year when science of DNA/genetics will be started

beacuse nowhere else out of 6236 verses are letters next to each other 3 times except in that verse 18:65 ---> wich correspond to the year 1865 when DNA science started.

same method is with Neutron (NTRN), by using existing words where consonant letters for neutron is used is only in verse 18:39, AND NOWHERE ELSE IN THE QURAN. Neutron is 1,839 times heavier than electron, how can it be so, tell me out of 6236 verses only in that verse wich corresponds to its weight.

same it is with other examples. I call this double information in same text, only God can do something like this, there is no doubt in my mind that these examples are real, and no coincidences, beacuse there is no coincidence with God beacuse God knows everything that is why coincidence dont happen in his creation or his decisions.

i have explained why you are wrong on this matter, now explain to me why i am wrong here. By the why brother Osama did you read my other topic about Iron core miracle with 5100km=5100 verses ?

I have studied and analysed quranic miracles for 3 years now. by the way, when you give that odd and even example with chapter and verse numbers you should always mention golden ratio in that example between repretative and non-repetetive numbers.

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2016, 03:57:19 pm »
One more thing we cant extract f*** word since it is not enough that letters are in correct order next to eachother beacuse you need also other evidence wich suport it

For example dna is not enough if it was not mentioned in verse 18:65 , year 1865
Neutron ntrn is not enough if it was not mentioned 18:39, heavier 1,839 times than an electron
Venus and its inclination number verse 17:7, venus inclination 177 degrees
Halley comet(kewkab) astronomical object in verse 76, it takes 76 years for that comet to orbit the sun
Kaba mentioned first time in verse 2:125, kaba has lattitude 21 degrees 25 minutes
Raising to high place only in verse 19:57, first time in human history human raised an objectso high, sputnik satelit was launched year 1957
 
Do you really think tvat all these examples are coincidences?

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2016, 10:21:23 pm »
Sorry brother Osama, but Hamza Tzortzis has called your assertions “an intellectual embarrassment” and “incoherent” as well as lacking “intellectual integrity”.

Hamza Tzortzis has explicitly refuted a number of your asserted scientific miracles.

Hamza Tzortzis is undoubtedly well aware of all your other asserted miracles and is unable to apply his criteria for verification of any of them as scientific miracles.

Hamza Tzortzis used to make the argument from embryology, as well as others.  He put his words to the test of public scrutiny and very much to his credit he has come to realize he was simply mistaken.  He has shown great intellectual integrity by having the courage to make a change in the face of reason and facts.

I sincerely invite you to examine the below words in context, consider the refutations I have made, and make a change.  I know that rejecting your faith altogether is a bridge too far for you, but your notion of scientific miracles in the Qur’an simply is not tenable.

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/does-the-quran-contain-scientific-miracles-a-new-approach/
“Regrettably, the scientific miracles narrative has become an intellectual embarrassment for Muslim apologists, including myself”

“It has become an intellectual embarrassment for Muslim apologists and it has exposed the lack of coherence in the way they have formulated the argument.”

“To claim that there is anything scientifically miraculous about a particular Qur’ānic verse is incoherent.”

“When claiming that something is miraculous it means that there is no plausible naturalistic explanation.”

“It is all a learning curve and an important part of developing intellectual integrity.”

“Although this proposed criteria to salvage the science in the Qur’ān narrative is still work in progress, I personally find it almost impossible to practically fulfill the above criteria.”


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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2016, 11:27:14 pm »
Peace to you Stardusty,

1-  Brother Hamza Tzortzis is not an Arabic speaker.  I am.

2-  Brother Hamza Tzortzis didn't use 7 encyclopedic dictionaries to thoroughly demonstrate how each Noble Word that spoke about a Scientific Miracle was used by the Arabs in their sayings and poetry before Islam, and how the Noble Words were used in the Noble Quran and Hadiths and other sayings after Islam.  Visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm

3-  Brother Hamza Tzortzis did not even talk about the Numerical Miracles.  I thoroughly demonstrated many of them.

It seems that all you do is throw in empty nonsense to just reject Islam.  Have it your way.  I did my part, and Allah Almighty is my Witness.  You want to continue to stubbornly reject Islam, that's your problem.  This is getting out of my hand at this point.

To the reader, please visit the following links:

www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links




Let's not get caught up on names:

Let's not get into the nonsense of using peoples' names as proofs.  I can name you names that are FAR GREATER THAN brother Hamza's name that fully embrace the school of the Scientific and Numerical Miracles in the Glorious Quran.  These are Ph.Ds with ample research in the Glorious Quran.



Allah Almighty talked about the Scientific Miracles:

Also, and again as I mentioned in the previous post, Allah Almighty left it for us, the Muslims and people in general who live in the Advanced Ages such as ours today, to discover the Quran's STUNNING Numerical and Scientific Miracles today under our advanced computer technology where we can do split second searches, counts and analysis.  Allah Almighty did Promise:

"We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and INSIDE THEIR SELVES, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things?  (The Noble Quran, 41:53)"

"...that it is the truth..." refers to the Glorious Quran being proven to be the Truth through the Scientific Signs that Allah Almighty will reveal in the Universe and in our Physiology, Biology and Embryology, and in the Numerical Miracles that all will prove that the Quran is indeed from our Creator, the Almighty.

Please visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/sci_prophecy.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac3.htm#prophecies
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links




Why not?

Why shouldn't Noble Verse 41:53 be considered a Divine Promise and Prophecy being fulfilled by Allah Almighty, Stardusty?  Why must every STUNNING Miracle and Prophecy be rejected according to you?  If the era of unveiling the Glorious Quran's Miracles, which we call today Scientific and Numerical Miracles, has begun, then why must you resist it and reject it as the infidels of old resisted and rejected the clear and evident and indisputable Truth and Signs and Miracles of Allah Almighty and his Prophets and Messengers, peace be upon all of them?  And worse, they even killed His Prophets and Messengers, and burned His Books.  And they called GOD Almighty's Miracles sorcery, magic, and lies.

I am telling you, Stardusty, Heaven and Hell are real!  The Glorious Quran tells us this.  And you are shipping yourself to the Doom of Hell with your stubbornness and blasphemies, by rejecting GOD Almighty, rejecting the Holy Quran, and rejecting Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

Yes, Heaven and Hell are VERY REAL!  Just like earth's pleasure, happiness, joy, pain, agony, bliss and fire are also real.  Heaven and Hell are real.  Why can't life be a little preview and/or demo for you and me by Allah Almighty about what to expect in the GRAND LIFE in the Day of Judgment?  Why must you chose the Doom of Hell when you have the Bliss of Heaven?  And this is no corrupt Bible or any other corrupt book claim.  The Glorious Quran has proven Itself over and over and over again to be the Divine Truth of GOD Almighty.  Allah Almighty called the Glorious Quran the Book that is "Muhaymin" (مهيمن, "Has all Authority above all") above all books.  See Noble Verse 5:48.  So why not accept It?  Why must you be on the side of the infidels?

Regarding the Holy Quran's Authority, please visit: www.answering-christianity.com/was_muta_immoral.htm

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2016, 11:43:15 pm »
As'salamu Alaikum akhi Dawud,

I just did brief checks on DNA and you are wrong for the following reasons:

1-  Noble Verse 18:65 is talking about a MALE servant, and no name was mentioned.  Here is the Arabic text:

‏18:65 فوجدا عبدا من عبادنا اتيناه رحمة من عندنا وعلمناه من لدنا علما

[018:065] Then found they one of Our slaves, unto whom We had given mercy from Us, and had taught him knowledge from Our presence.

The Arabic word that has DNA letters in Arabic in the Noble Verse is لدنا.  But this Noble Word is also used in the following Noble Verses, and they don't give any hint about the Word's meaning to mean DNA today.


Show me where following Noble Verses are hinting to DNA?

‏4:67 واذا لاتيناهم من لدنا اجرا عظيما

[004:067]  And We should then have given them from our presence a great reward;

‏19:13 وحنانا من لدنا وزكاة وكان تقيا

[019:013]  And piety (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity: He was devout,

‏20:99 كذلك نقص عليك من انباء ماقد سبق وقد اتيناك من لدنا ذكرا

[020:099]  Thus do We relate to thee some stories of what happened before: for We have sent thee a Message from Our own Presence.

‏21:17 لو اردنا ان نتخذ لهوا لاتخذناه من لدنا ان كنا فاعلين

[021:017]  If it had been Our wish to take (just) a pastime, We should surely have taken it from the things nearest to Us, if We would do (such a thing)!

‏28:57 وقالوا ان نتبع الهدى معك نتخطف من ارضنا او لم نمكن لهم حرما امنا يجبى اليه ثمرات كل شئ رزقا من لدنا ولكن اكثرهم لايعلمون

[028:057]  They say: "If we were to follow the guidance with thee, we should be snatched away from our land." Have We not established for them a secure sanctuary, to which are brought as tribute fruits of all kinds,- a provision from Ourselves? but most of them understand not.

I won't argue long with you on this.  Please do not use this approach here.  The others where you matched Noble Verses' numerical references with dates are ok. 

May Allah Almighty bless you.  Please honor my request to you.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2016, 01:33:05 am »
As'salamu Alaikum akhi Dawud,

I just did brief checks on DNA and you are wrong for the following reasons:

1-  Noble Verse 18:65 is talking about a MALE servant, and no name was mentioned.  Here is the Arabic text:

‏18:65 فوجدا عبدا من عبادنا اتيناه رحمة من عندنا وعلمناه من لدنا علما

[018:065] Then found they one of Our slaves, unto whom We had given mercy from Us, and had taught him knowledge from Our presence.

The Arabic word that has DNA letters in Arabic in the Noble Verse is لدنا.  But this Noble Word is also used in the following Noble Verses, and they don't give any hint about the Word's meaning to mean DNA today.


Show me where following Noble Verses are hinting to DNA?

‏4:67 واذا لاتيناهم من لدنا اجرا عظيما

[004:067]  And We should then have given them from our presence a great reward;

‏19:13 وحنانا من لدنا وزكاة وكان تقيا

[019:013]  And piety (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity: He was devout,

‏20:99 كذلك نقص عليك من انباء ماقد سبق وقد اتيناك من لدنا ذكرا

[020:099]  Thus do We relate to thee some stories of what happened before: for We have sent thee a Message from Our own Presence.

‏21:17 لو اردنا ان نتخذ لهوا لاتخذناه من لدنا ان كنا فاعلين

[021:017]  If it had been Our wish to take (just) a pastime, We should surely have taken it from the things nearest to Us, if We would do (such a thing)!

‏28:57 وقالوا ان نتبع الهدى معك نتخطف من ارضنا او لم نمكن لهم حرما امنا يجبى اليه ثمرات كل شئ رزقا من لدنا ولكن اكثرهم لايعلمون

[028:057]  They say: "If we were to follow the guidance with thee, we should be snatched away from our land." Have We not established for them a secure sanctuary, to which are brought as tribute fruits of all kinds,- a provision from Ourselves? but most of them understand not.

I won't argue long with you on this.  Please do not use this approach here.  The others where you matched Noble Verses' numerical references with dates are ok. 

May Allah Almighty bless you.  Please honor my request to you.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Alaikom Salam brother Osama, i want to tell you one thing, wallahi i love you in the name of Allah for your effort on this site, this site has shaped my knowledge about Islam, you dont know how many times i have used your texts from this site in my dawah, i pray to Allah to reward you with paradise.

Before we end this discussion about programming letters in quran i want to tell you one thing, be like one of the sahaba when he wanted to hear what prophet had to say, he was thinking If he speak true i will accept it, if he speak falsehood i will reject it, i am logical man.

SO if i speak the true, you can only benefit from it and use my arguments in your dawah, beacuse so far nobody of atheists could reject those examples even though they wanted to do it so bad, but they could not.

Even if a Child comes to me and say, Hey, do you want to learn from me something new about quran wich can benefit you in your dawah, i would say show me, beacuse i know if something is logical i accept it if it is not i reject it, as easy as that.


when i search in quran i use your quran search on answering-christianity to verify claims of other Before i accept them


Quote
I just did brief checks on DNA and you are wrong for the following reasons:

1-  Noble Verse 18:65 is talking about a MALE servant, and no name was mentioned.  Here is the Arabic text:

‏18:65 فوجدا عبدا من عبادنا اتيناه رحمة من عندنا وعلمناه من لدنا علما

[018:065] Then found they one of Our slaves, unto whom We had given mercy from Us, and had taught him knowledge from Our presence.

The Arabic word that has DNA letters in Arabic in the Noble Verse is لدنا.  But this Noble Word is also used in the following Noble Verses, and they don't give any hint about the Word's meaning to mean DNA today.

let me explain Before you reject it

in Quran letters DNA are found on many places, 1 occurence/verse many times , 2 occurences/verse many times
so nothing is special with those occurence as far as i know beacuse they occur in many placesnothing support them expect that letters are in correct order next to each other

but you missed this

‏18:65 فوجدا عبدا من عبادنا اتيناه رحمة من عندنا وعلمناه من لدنا علما

only this verse contain DNA 3 times and nowhere else in the quran, there were 1, 2 and 3 occurence /verse in the quran but not greater than 3, like 4,5 or more.
So 3 times /verse is only ONCE, that is why it makes it special in verse 18:65--->year 1865

If i picked one verse with DNA 1 occurence you could say, why pick that verse why not pick other, or if i picked verse with 2 occurences/verse you would say why pick that why not other verse with 2 occurences

but you cant say why did you picked that verse with DNA mentioned 3 times /verse and not other one with 3 times, beacuse there is no other verse with DNA 3 times. You can witness this with you own Eyes

copy letter DNA
دنا
and put it in your search quran program and yo uwill see that only verse 18:65 mentions only DNA 3 time and nowhere else, that is why it is special.

DO you understand me brother now?
If you want to accept this, just accept it, if you want to reject it, just reject it, and we will end our discussion with nummerical programing with letters

Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2016, 01:37:12 am »
‏18:65 فوجدا عبدا من عبادنا اتيناه رحمة من عندنا وعلمناه من لدنا علما

DNA letter 3 times in one verse only

Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2016, 01:49:24 am »
Sorry brother Osama, but Hamza Tzortzis has called your assertions “an intellectual embarrassment” and “incoherent” as well as lacking “intellectual integrity”.

Hamza Tzortzis has explicitly refuted a number of your asserted scientific miracles.

Hamza Tzortzis is undoubtedly well aware of all your other asserted miracles and is unable to apply his criteria for verification of any of them as scientific miracles.

Hamza Tzortzis used to make the argument from embryology, as well as others.  He put his words to the test of public scrutiny and very much to his credit he has come to realize he was simply mistaken.  He has shown great intellectual integrity by having the courage to make a change in the face of reason and facts.

I sincerely invite you to examine the below words in context, consider the refutations I have made, and make a change.  I know that rejecting your faith altogether is a bridge too far for you, but your notion of scientific miracles in the Qur’an simply is not tenable.

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/does-the-quran-contain-scientific-miracles-a-new-approach/
“Regrettably, the scientific miracles narrative has become an intellectual embarrassment for Muslim apologists, including myself”

“It has become an intellectual embarrassment for Muslim apologists and it has exposed the lack of coherence in the way they have formulated the argument.”

“To claim that there is anything scientifically miraculous about a particular Qur’ānic verse is incoherent.”

“When claiming that something is miraculous it means that there is no plausible naturalistic explanation.”

“It is all a learning curve and an important part of developing intellectual integrity.”

“Although this proposed criteria to salvage the science in the Qur’ān narrative is still work in progress, I personally find it almost impossible to practically fulfill the above criteria.”

i can tell you that Osama is speaking the true when he claim scientific miracles in the quran beacuse i have verifed his claims,

you can verfy it too

if we take this example

We created man from an extract of clay.  Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed.  Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)... 1 (Quran, 23:12-14)


ثُمَّ خَلَقْنَا النُّطْفَةَ عَلَقَةً

Then We made the semen-drop into an alaqah
 (leech)

if you still dont Believe , translate this quranic Word عَلَقَةً

https://translate.google.se/#ar/en/%D8%B9%D9%8E%D9%84%D9%8E%D9%82%D9%8E%D8%A9%D9%8B%DB%AC

and you will get this : Leech

let have a look how embryo in that stage look like


why would God yuse Word leech then in describing embryo?
http://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/embryology/index.php?title=Scanning_Electron_Microscopy

this is why




even head of leech and embryo look same

question for you all, who can connect embryo phase with LEECH in 6th Century without microscope?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 10:39:42 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2016, 02:55:07 am »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Dawud,

Please write your actual writings in text and not in images.  Just like your answers to me in your recent posts.  This would:

1-  Allow for your writings to be picked up by search engines.

2-  Allow for them to be searchable by the users.

3-  Allows the user to copy and paste and verify.

Now for actual pictures like the Leech, for example, then yes, please do post them as pictures.  But please make your text in actual writings and not images.  If I have objections or find errors, then I'll just directly respond to you.  This way we can interact and reach to the Truth, insha'Allah.

May Allah Almighty bless you, akhi.  Ameen.  Feel free to express your thoughts as you wish.  I won't interfere.  I will interact with replies if needed, insha'Allah.

Take care akhi, and keep up the great work!
Osama Abdallah

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2016, 03:24:44 am »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Dawud,

Please write your actual writings in text and not in images.  Just like your answers to me in your recent posts.  This would:

1-  Allow for your writings to be picked up by search engines.

2-  Allow for them to be searchable by the users.

3-  Allows the user to copy and paste and verify.

Now for actual pictures like the Leech, for example, then yes, please do post them as pictures.  But please make your text in actual writings and not images.  If I have objections or find errors, then I'll just directly respond to you.  This way we can interact and reach to the Truth, insha'Allah.

May Allah Almighty bless you, akhi.  Ameen.  Feel free to express your thoughts as you wish.  I won't interfere.  I will interact with replies if needed, insha'Allah.

Take care akhi, and keep up the great work!
Osama Abdallah

Alaikom Selam

ok i understand.

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2016, 11:52:34 pm »
As'salamu Alaikum brother Osama,
In any language there are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an.  I do not rely on one translator, rather I go to corpus.quran, and if you have additional translations I am always interested in contrasting your translation with that of established and often referenced authors.

In any language brother Hamza has thoroughly refuted explicitly several of your asserted scientific miracles.  You have offered no specific rebuttals to our refutations, only links that repeat your erroneous assertions. He has not explicitly addressed all of them but I will begin to do so myself below.

Yes, I would be interested in the PhDs and others you mention.  What are their names?

I have replicated one of your asserted miracles.  It took me about an hour.

Below are 114 numbers representing the number of verses in 114 chapters of a book.
105,59,48,59,20,49,29,74,28,4,22,4,7,63,18,92,13,7,12,104,8,92,74,44,86,2,85,22,19,94,18,97,18,54,53,40,72,26,42,98,13,4,26,96,74,12,99,35,71,93,33,57,103,32,46,75,98,4,99,9,14,52,44,87,46,81,93,2,101,17,17,29,30,87,40,62,40,100,104,54,85,27,41,83,70,98,30,35,65,105,64,8,96,66,69,4,47,65,72,18,31,48,64,13,100,21,46,3,63,11,103,103,98,46

The sum of these 114 numbers is 5938.
The sum of 114 verse numbers is 6555, as you have often cited.
Entering the 114 verse count number into your numerology algorithm yields a sum of even numbers equal to 5938, and the sum of the odd numbers equal to 6555.

I, an ordinary man, intentionally constructed this “numerical miracle”.  Therefore, an ordinary 7th century man was capable of doing the same. 

It was all good fun and I learned a few fascinating aspects of this numerological illusion, and in the spirit of Randy, I will reveal my secrets. 

First the sum of the chapter numbers and the verse numbers must always equal the sum of the even numbers and the odd numbers.  This is because the whole numerological algorithm is just an example of the associative property and the commutative property of addition.  The algorithm adds a set of numbers using one set of associations, then adds that same set of numbers a second time using a different set of associations.  Since association and commutation does not change the sum in addition of positive numbers the answers must always match no matter what the verse lengths are.

But this numerology lays out additional criteria.  The individual sums must always match.  Now, since 6555 is an odd number the chapter number total must match the odd number total, because a sum of even numbers is always an even number.

Likewise, the verse length total must be an even number, because it must match the total of even numbers, which is always even.

So, all I had to do was get the odd number total to match the fixed value of 6555. This was quickly and easily done by my brain.  For example, if the total of the odd numbers was 121 too low, all I had to do was look for an even number of 122.  I then subtracted 1 from the verse length on that row so the total would now be 121 on that row.  The even/odd test automatically moved the number 122 out of the even number column and into the odd number column as 121.

This movement caused the odd number total to rise to exactly 6555.  By necessity of the algorithmic structure the even number total automatically then matched the verse count total and…presto…I created a “numerical miracle”.

In real life all the scribe would have had to do is combine 2 adjacent verses in the chapter into a single verse, and he would have achieved the exact same effect.

Brother Osama, the time has come for an intellectual awakening for you.  I warmly invite you to the realm of rationality and reason.  I urge you to find the intellectual courage to realize the enormity of your errors, and make a change that cleanses your mind of your irrational belief in scientific miracles in the Qur’an.

I, for one, will not be gloating when you do, rather, warmly welcoming you into the light of reason.

Peace Bro

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2016, 12:32:27 am »
Brother Dawud,
Thank you for quoting the Qur’an, it makes such an obvious fact of the utter lack of scientific miracles in it.

“We created man from an extract of clay.”
No, science tells us that humans evolved from lower primates.

 “Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed.”
No, this is nonsense.  There is no “drop in a place of settlement” phase in human development.

 “ Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot),”
No, there is no leech stage or blood clot stage of human development.  Anyone who has ever cut the cord for a newborn baby knows babies are, in a very vague sense, a “suspended thing”.

“ then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)... “
No, there is no “chewed substance” stage of human development.

1 (Quran, 23:12-14)
This passage is obviously a crude and false guess about human origins from mud, followed by a very primitive and ignorant description of the products of miscarriage.

I will not post the images themselves because it could be an emotional issue for those who have lost a child in pregnancy, but the unfortunate fact is that miscarriages have been happening for all human time.  In the days of Muhammad there was no 911 call and a rush to the hospital.  Women had their miscarriages wherever they lived so the sight of the products must have been well known.

Obviously, the products of a miscarriage look like “a chewed thing” or a “leech” or a “blood clot”  just use google images.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--6AnFcAXnZY/VVp5JROhJGI/AAAAAAAABlQ/vXJyFxq-Zt8/s1600/first-trimester-miscarriage.jpg
http://lostinnocentsorthodox.blogspot.com/p/photographs.html
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l40/jlojoyz/Period2.jpg
http://www.newkidscenter.com/images/1FR00694/4%20weeks.JPG
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/bethanyd.jpg
http://imageserve.babycenter.com/15/000/313/2tY0KDyLyphZdkjRO3r5sSAvDtjDRMjc_lg.jpg

Muhammad was just giving a crude description of an unfortunately all too common sight.

How anybody can even remotely consider this to be a “scientific miracle” is the only mind-boggling aspect to the nonsense argument from embryology.


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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2016, 02:42:33 am »
As'salamu Alaikum brother Osama,
In any language there are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an.  I do not rely on one translator, rather I go to corpus.quran, and if you have additional translations I am always interested in contrasting your translation with that of established and often referenced authors.

In any language brother Hamza has thoroughly refuted explicitly several of your asserted scientific miracles.  You have offered no specific rebuttals to our refutations, only links that repeat your erroneous assertions. He has not explicitly addressed all of them but I will begin to do so myself below.

Yes, I would be interested in the PhDs and others you mention.  What are their names?

I have replicated one of your asserted miracles.  It took me about an hour.

Below are 114 numbers representing the number of verses in 114 chapters of a book.
105,59,48,59,20,49,29,74,28,4,22,4,7,63,18,92,13,7,12,104,8,92,74,44,86,2,85,22,19,94,18,97,18,54,53,40,72,26,42,98,13,4,26,96,74,12,99,35,71,93,33,57,103,32,46,75,98,4,99,9,14,52,44,87,46,81,93,2,101,17,17,29,30,87,40,62,40,100,104,54,85,27,41,83,70,98,30,35,65,105,64,8,96,66,69,4,47,65,72,18,31,48,64,13,100,21,46,3,63,11,103,103,98,46

The sum of these 114 numbers is 5938.
The sum of 114 verse numbers is 6555, as you have often cited.
Entering the 114 verse count number into your numerology algorithm yields a sum of even numbers equal to 5938, and the sum of the odd numbers equal to 6555.


I, an ordinary man, intentionally constructed this “numerical miracle”.  Therefore, an ordinary 7th century man was capable of doing the same. 

It was all good fun and I learned a few fascinating aspects of this numerological illusion, and in the spirit of Randy, I will reveal my secrets. 

First the sum of the chapter numbers and the verse numbers must always equal the sum of the even numbers and the odd numbers.  This is because the whole numerological algorithm is just an example of the associative property and the commutative property of addition.  The algorithm adds a set of numbers using one set of associations, then adds that same set of numbers a second time using a different set of associations.  Since association and commutation does not change the sum in addition of positive numbers the answers must always match no matter what the verse lengths are.

But this numerology lays out additional criteria.  The individual sums must always match.  Now, since 6555 is an odd number the chapter number total must match the odd number total, because a sum of even numbers is always an even number.

Likewise, the verse length total must be an even number, because it must match the total of even numbers, which is always even.

So, all I had to do was get the odd number total to match the fixed value of 6555. This was quickly and easily done by my brain.  For example, if the total of the odd numbers was 121 too low, all I had to do was look for an even number of 122.  I then subtracted 1 from the verse length on that row so the total would now be 121 on that row.  The even/odd test automatically moved the number 122 out of the even number column and into the odd number column as 121.

This movement caused the odd number total to rise to exactly 6555.  By necessity of the algorithmic structure the even number total automatically then matched the verse count total and…presto…I created a “numerical miracle”.

In real life all the scribe would have had to do is combine 2 adjacent verses in the chapter into a single verse, and he would have achieved the exact same effect.

Brother Osama, the time has come for an intellectual awakening for you.  I warmly invite you to the realm of rationality and reason.  I urge you to find the intellectual courage to realize the enormity of your errors, and make a change that cleanses your mind of your irrational belief in scientific miracles in the Qur’an.

I, for one, will not be gloating when you do, rather, warmly welcoming you into the light of reason.

Peace Bro

you Think you have but you have not

let me show you why you have not succeeded in programing




Here, we have repetetive
nummerical values from the table above
for example chapters 85 and 99 have
same nummerical value 107, we summerize all repetitive nummerical values


Here,
we have non-repetitive nummerical values, and we summerize them also


We can clearly
see golden ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values from
this table


question for you is now, did you programmed golden ratio in your numbers like it is programmed in the quran and verse numbers?

and if you do this, same else should also be programmed wich is even greater than previous example, all most be symtrical like quran chapter and verse numbers are symtrical.

try first with golden ratio, then we can continue on simetry.


« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 10:42:40 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2016, 02:44:02 am »
As'salamu Alaikum brother Osama,
In any language there are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an.  I do not rely on one translator, rather I go to corpus.quran, and if you have additional translations I am always interested in contrasting your translation with that of established and often referenced authors.

In any language brother Hamza has thoroughly refuted explicitly several of your asserted scientific miracles.  You have offered no specific rebuttals to our refutations, only links that repeat your erroneous assertions. He has not explicitly addressed all of them but I will begin to do so myself below.

Yes, I would be interested in the PhDs and others you mention.  What are their names?

I have replicated one of your asserted miracles.  It took me about an hour.

Below are 114 numbers representing the number of verses in 114 chapters of a book.
105,59,48,59,20,49,29,74,28,4,22,4,7,63,18,92,13,7,12,104,8,92,74,44,86,2,85,22,19,94,18,97,18,54,53,40,72,26,42,98,13,4,26,96,74,12,99,35,71,93,33,57,103,32,46,75,98,4,99,9,14,52,44,87,46,81,93,2,101,17,17,29,30,87,40,62,40,100,104,54,85,27,41,83,70,98,30,35,65,105,64,8,96,66,69,4,47,65,72,18,31,48,64,13,100,21,46,3,63,11,103,103,98,46

The sum of these 114 numbers is 5938.
The sum of 114 verse numbers is 6555, as you have often cited.
Entering the 114 verse count number into your numerology algorithm yields a sum of even numbers equal to 5938, and the sum of the odd numbers equal to 6555.


I, an ordinary man, intentionally constructed this “numerical miracle”.  Therefore, an ordinary 7th century man was capable of doing the same. 

It was all good fun and I learned a few fascinating aspects of this numerological illusion, and in the spirit of Randy, I will reveal my secrets. 

First the sum of the chapter numbers and the verse numbers must always equal the sum of the even numbers and the odd numbers.  This is because the whole numerological algorithm is just an example of the associative property and the commutative property of addition.  The algorithm adds a set of numbers using one set of associations, then adds that same set of numbers a second time using a different set of associations.  Since association and commutation does not change the sum in addition of positive numbers the answers must always match no matter what the verse lengths are.

But this numerology lays out additional criteria.  The individual sums must always match.  Now, since 6555 is an odd number the chapter number total must match the odd number total, because a sum of even numbers is always an even number.

Likewise, the verse length total must be an even number, because it must match the total of even numbers, which is always even.

So, all I had to do was get the odd number total to match the fixed value of 6555. This was quickly and easily done by my brain.  For example, if the total of the odd numbers was 121 too low, all I had to do was look for an even number of 122.  I then subtracted 1 from the verse length on that row so the total would now be 121 on that row.  The even/odd test automatically moved the number 122 out of the even number column and into the odd number column as 121.

This movement caused the odd number total to rise to exactly 6555.  By necessity of the algorithmic structure the even number total automatically then matched the verse count total and…presto…I created a “numerical miracle”.

In real life all the scribe would have had to do is combine 2 adjacent verses in the chapter into a single verse, and he would have achieved the exact same effect.

Brother Osama, the time has come for an intellectual awakening for you.  I warmly invite you to the realm of rationality and reason.  I urge you to find the intellectual courage to realize the enormity of your errors, and make a change that cleanses your mind of your irrational belief in scientific miracles in the Qur’an.

I, for one, will not be gloating when you do, rather, warmly welcoming you into the light of reason.

Peace Bro

you Think you have but you have not

let me show you why you have not succeeded in programing





Here, we have repetetive
nummerical values from the table above
for example chapters 85 and 99 have
same nummerical value 107, we summerize all repetitive nummerical values


Here,
we have non-repetitive nummerical values, and we summerize them also


We can clearly
see golden ratio between Reptitive and non-repetitive nummerical values from
this table


question for you is now, did you programmed golden ratio in your numbers like it is programmed in the quran and verse numbers?

and if you do this, same else should also be programmed wich is even greater than previous example, all most be symtrical like quran chapter and verse numbers are symtrical.

try first with golden ratio, then we can continue on simetry.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 10:44:35 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2016, 02:49:07 am »
Brother Dawud,
Thank you for quoting the Qur’an, it makes such an obvious fact of the utter lack of scientific miracles in it.

“We created man from an extract of clay.”
No, science tells us that humans evolved from lower primates.

 “Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed.”
No, this is nonsense.  There is no “drop in a place of settlement” phase in human development.

 “ Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot),”
No, there is no leech stage or blood clot stage of human development.  Anyone who has ever cut the cord for a newborn baby knows babies are, in a very vague sense, a “suspended thing”.

“ then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)... “
No, there is no “chewed substance” stage of human development.

1 (Quran, 23:12-14)
This passage is obviously a crude and false guess about human origins from mud, followed by a very primitive and ignorant description of the products of miscarriage.

I will not post the images themselves because it could be an emotional issue for those who have lost a child in pregnancy, but the unfortunate fact is that miscarriages have been happening for all human time.  In the days of Muhammad there was no 911 call and a rush to the hospital.  Women had their miscarriages wherever they lived so the sight of the products must have been well known.

Obviously, the products of a miscarriage look like “a chewed thing” or a “leech” or a “blood clot”  just use google images.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--6AnFcAXnZY/VVp5JROhJGI/AAAAAAAABlQ/vXJyFxq-Zt8/s1600/first-trimester-miscarriage.jpg
http://lostinnocentsorthodox.blogspot.com/p/photographs.html
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l40/jlojoyz/Period2.jpg
http://www.newkidscenter.com/images/1FR00694/4%20weeks.JPG
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/bethanyd.jpg
http://imageserve.babycenter.com/15/000/313/2tY0KDyLyphZdkjRO3r5sSAvDtjDRMjc_lg.jpg

Muhammad was just giving a crude description of an unfortunately all too common sight.

How anybody can even remotely consider this to be a “scientific miracle” is the only mind-boggling aspect to the nonsense argument from embryology.


Quote
“We created man from an extract of clay.”
No, science tells us that humans evolved from lower primates.

no, science dont tell us that, beacuse science is emprical, something wich you can see and test in experiments, while evolution is a theory, not a fact.


Quote
“ Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot),”
No, there is no leech stage or blood clot stage of human development.  Anyone who has ever cut the cord for a newborn baby knows babies are, in a very vague sense, a “suspended thing”.

what is this then?




why does embryo look like leech on this microscopic photo? why are you lying yourself on this Point, you can clearly see, everybody can clearly see and you say there is no leech stage.

we are neighter dumb nor blind, but if you want to be blind then be blind.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 10:46:00 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2016, 02:31:40 am »
This guy stardust is an obvious troll brother Osama

Funny when people keep talking they eventually expose themselves.


He does not believe in God and the creation yet he has no problem whatsoever swallowing the scam known as the evolution lol

Tell me something fella... how many times were your evolutionists caught red handed faking evidence?

Attaching ape jaws to human skellies lololol... and don't get me started on Lucy (more like Lucifer)


Thisguy is here to troll bro... probably Hasbara.. i can smell them miles away


Tell me something Hasbara... what do NASA first look for when they send probes to outer space to check for life?


WATER!!!!


"We created from water every living thing" ....SPOT ON!!


When you are in the grave and you are left to rot... what do you go back to? Dust... earth..clay... SPOT ON!!!


AS for the Embryology... i think i might as well take the word of an expert in the field rather than a troll: Dr. Moore https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFq6E0l2J4U


And so on and so forth...

I tell you what is miraculous about the Quran... for every miracle you can say but Muhammad traveled and observed and bla bla bla.... it is the consistency... the utter precision. Not ONE mistake. now if only 2 or 3 miracles hit the nail on the head.. id be skeptic.. but each singleone of them and there are hundreds and thousands yet to be uncovered.

And we haven't even delved into the linguistics of the Quran yet and its miracles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-ULa2JzPG0

The language, the predictions...

I dealt with scum like this my entire life.

This guy is a shekels per posts type of guy... AMIRITE?

Assalam :)

 



Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2016, 06:28:44 am »
Brother Tarek,
Allow me to remind you of the meaning of the term you use repeatedly.
spot-on
(spŏt′ŏn′, -ôn′)
adj.
Precisely right; exact:


"We created from water every living thing" ....SPOT ON!!
“When you are in the grave and you are left to rot... what do you go back to? Dust... earth..clay... SPOT ON!!!”

So, in your view, it is precisely right and exact that life is made from water and that we return to dust , earth and clay when we rot.

You are wrong on both counts.

Life is not made exactly from water; in fact DNA requires 5 elements whereas water only contains 2 elements.

We do not return exactly to dust, earth, and clay.  Much of our bodies turns to gas, or is consumed by other organisms, or returns to the water cycle.

It has been suggested here previously that I am committing a logical fallacy in insisting that the words of Allah must be complete.  But you apparently do interpret those words as precise and exact.  If your interpretation of the words is correct then both you and the Qur’an are quite mistaken.

However, water is obviously essential to life, and we obviously do break down and contribute to soil growth when we are buried in the ground.  This is a miraculous observation to you?

Fine, I will give you a few more miraculous observations:
Water flows downhill
The sun rises in the East and sets in the West
The sky is blue but sometimes gray or red or even a bit green
Water is essential to life
Our bodies decay when we die

Brother Tarek, I am sorry to say you have not considered these matters very carefully and I urge you to realize that simple observations of the natural world do not constitute a ‘”scientific miracle”

Peace Bro

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2016, 06:52:55 am »
Brother Dawud,
No, there is no leech stage to human development.

"what is this then?" you ask.
Answer, a human embryo.

Yes, I realize that at that point in development there is a very crude resemblance between a leech and a human embryo.

This resembles a leech
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5Oh_aR1WQ9Q/U9E5p18kanI/AAAAAAAASOw/6gLuAevyh20/s1600/image_2+-+WM.jpeg

This also resembles a leech
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/bethanyd.jpg

It is a simple observational fact that human beings resemble leeches in their early development. 

All that is needed to observe this fact is a miscarriage.

Miscarriages were, unfortunately, common.

There is no scientific miracle in describing the products of a miscarriage as a leech, or a clot, or a chewed thing.  Those are just crude descriptions of the obvious.

Peace Bro

Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2016, 07:05:30 am »
Kindly refrain from calling me brother

I do not befriend Hasbara shills

Yes m8, we know... I dealt with filth like you my entire life.

If it was someone genuine, i'd be more than happy to oblige.. but not Zionists with agenda who actually call the Quran fake while at the same time fostering the LOL evolution theory

You failed to answer me... how many times have you beloved New Satanic World Order buffoons been caught faking evidence?

Shall i list them for you?


You are a special kind of obtuse Hasbara aren't you?

The Quran is not a Science Book... YET it contains scientific facts in it

The Quran was not meant to address people as if they were astronauts or geologists... rather it speaks in layman terms so it is available for anyone to understand


So far i'd love to see you denuking one miracle in thee Quran ONE... What happened to Dr. Moore? seems you skipped that video

im gonna ask you again... WHAT DO NASA LOOK FOR IN SPACE AS A SIGN OF LIFE? You will avoid that question as well..

The Leech stage has been demonstrated to you, IN PICTURES... you pretend not to see it...


Man is made of earth.. clay, soil... What's the soil made of?

Most soil is mostly comprised of Oxygen, Potassium, Aluminium, Sodium, Calcium, Magnesium, Iron, Phosphorus, Carbon with a small percentage (e.g. 1-8%) of organic compunds of Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Sulphur. A few soils have very high organic content (e.g. peaty soils) which will be mostly dead organic material, but also includes a very important living component: the tiny plants and animals in the soil.



Ooops i see lots of common elements between the soil and the human body.

Just accept the debunk and how we exposed you and move with dignity.. i doubt you got any.

Not many shekels for you today, Hasbara

Shalom.. right? :)

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2016, 07:10:26 am »
Brother Dawud,
I have conclusively demonstrated that the so-called miracle as described by brother Osama can be easily constructed by a human being.

This is what Osama says is a miracle:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm
The Glorious Quran has 114 Chapters. The sum of those Chapters is 6555 (1+2+...+114 = 6555). There are also 6236 Noble Verses in the Glorious Quran. Now, IF YOU ADD EACH CHAPTER # with the number of its Verses, then you get a list of numbers. So 1 (first Chapter) + 7 (# of its Verses) = 8. Do this for all Chapters.
1-  The sum of the odd numbers from the list = 6555.
2-  The sum of the even numbers from the list = 6236.
I quickly and easily reproduced that “miracle”, conclusively discounting Osama’s assertion.

Now, brother Dawud, you seek to add additional constraints to this mere trick of numerological construction.  In American parlance we call that “moving the goalposts”.


Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2016, 07:37:07 am »
Mr. Habal,
I see clearly that you are prone to make assumptions when you do not have evidence.

Actually, the books of Moses contain even more instructions to wretched actions than the Qur'an.  Unfortunately for the indigenous people of what we now call Palestine or Israel those instructions were genocide against them.  Fortunately for the rest of the world, the explicit incitement to murder made by Moses was limited to that relatively small geographical area.

Your post is little more than a disjointed rant, filled with anger and accusations based on assumptions for which you have no evidence beyond what you can "smell" through your computer.

The "miracle" I have thoroughly debunked is that life is made from water.

You wish to bring up that the Qur'an also says that man was made from mud.  That is also scientifically false.  Science tells us that human beings evolved from lower primates, not mud.

You seek to discount the fact and theory of evolution by citing a tiny percentage of individuals in the field who have in fact used fraud to further their own agenda, likely fame and wealth.  That is one of the great things about science.  It is other scientists who expose false claims through the scientific method.

Indeed, the Qur'an is not a science book and there are no scientific miracles in it.  There are a number of very crude and obvious observations in it that are so apparent to any careful observer that they have some alignment with reality if interpreted in the broadest sense, which in no way qualifies such statements as miracles.

Peace Mr. Habal

Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2016, 07:57:04 am »
Again posting an opinion and not facts

We don't do opinions here.. so far you failed to even disprove one miracle in the Quran.. just making yourown observation

Tell me something Hasbara.. did Sam Shamoun send you here?

Ali Sina, perhaps?

Sitting at my desk here, i can still smell that distinct Hasbara stench.

And no there was NEVER one single shred of evidence to support the claim that humans evolved from primates.

Only hoaxes like the ones mentioned above. Lucifer.. i mean Lucy was just another hoax..

Now with the Nano technology available.. im sure the hoaxes will get even more intricate.. don't you think?

I still shall not fall for them


Out of curiosity... who was behind 9/11?

Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2016, 07:57:47 am »
Brother Dawud,
No, there is no leech stage to human development.

"what is this then?" you ask.
Answer, a human embryo.

Yes, I realize that at that point in development there is a very crude resemblance between a leech and a human embryo.

This resembles a leech
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5Oh_aR1WQ9Q/U9E5p18kanI/AAAAAAAASOw/6gLuAevyh20/s1600/image_2+-+WM.jpeg

This also resembles a leech
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/bethanyd.jpg

It is a simple observational fact that human beings resemble leeches in their early development. 

All that is needed to observe this fact is a miscarriage.

Miscarriages were, unfortunately, common.

There is no scientific miracle in describing the products of a miscarriage as a leech, or a clot, or a chewed thing.  Those are just crude descriptions of the obvious.

Peace Bro

Quote
No, there is no leech stage to human development.

but i provided you a clear micrscopic photo of embryo looking like a leech, are you blind or obviously denying the true???

Quote
This resembles a leech
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5Oh_aR1WQ9Q/U9E5p18kanI/AAAAAAAASOw/6gLuAevyh20/s1600/image_2+-+WM.jpeg

This also resembles a leech
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/bethanyd.jpg

no it does not look like a leech



this is seen in microscope, it cant bee seen with naked eye
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 10:47:14 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2016, 08:01:44 am »
Brother Dawud,
I have conclusively demonstrated that the so-called miracle as described by brother Osama can be easily constructed by a human being.

This is what Osama says is a miracle:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm
The Glorious Quran has 114 Chapters. The sum of those Chapters is 6555 (1+2+...+114 = 6555). There are also 6236 Noble Verses in the Glorious Quran. Now, IF YOU ADD EACH CHAPTER # with the number of its Verses, then you get a list of numbers. So 1 (first Chapter) + 7 (# of its Verses) = 8. Do this for all Chapters.
1-  The sum of the odd numbers from the list = 6555.
2-  The sum of the even numbers from the list = 6236.
I quickly and easily reproduced that “miracle”, conclusively discounting Osama’s assertion.

Now, brother Dawud, you seek to add additional constraints to this mere trick of numerological construction.  In American parlance we call that “moving the goalposts”.

Osama told you only one part, i told you two more part wich are connected with that chapter verse programming, and that is golden ratio and symtery

if you Think it is easy to do, let make an experiment, use 10 first chapter, and use what ever verse number to specific chapter as you wish, and make it so that

sum of chapters, = sum of odd
sum of verses, = sum of evens

just do it with 10 chapters if you can


Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2016, 08:14:08 am »
Mr. Habal,
I see clearly that you are prone to make assumptions when you do not have evidence.

Actually, the books of Moses contain even more instructions to wretched actions than the Qur'an.  Unfortunately for the indigenous people of what we now call Palestine or Israel those instructions were genocide against them.  Fortunately for the rest of the world, the explicit incitement to murder made by Moses was limited to that relatively small geographical area.

Your post is little more than a disjointed rant, filled with anger and accusations based on assumptions for which you have no evidence beyond what you can "smell" through your computer.

The "miracle" I have thoroughly debunked is that life is made from water.

You wish to bring up that the Qur'an also says that man was made from mud.  That is also scientifically false.  Science tells us that human beings evolved from lower primates, not mud.

You seek to discount the fact and theory of evolution by citing a tiny percentage of individuals in the field who have in fact used fraud to further their own agenda, likely fame and wealth.  That is one of the great things about science.  It is other scientists who expose false claims through the scientific method.

Indeed, the Qur'an is not a science book and there are no scientific miracles in it.  There are a number of very crude and obvious observations in it that are so apparent to any careful observer that they have some alignment with reality if interpreted in the broadest sense, which in no way qualifies such statements as miracles.

Peace Mr. Habal


Quote
Science tells us that human beings evolved from lower primates, not mud.

no it does not, science is empirical , wich means what you see and test that is science, you cant test and do experiment for million of years to prove evolution, so it stay just a theory

and by the way, if you Think we evolved from primates, tell me how could Kinesin molecular Robots inside your cells evolve, they have 2 arms, two legs and they haul Heavy cargo to destination, they are equiped with GPS system re-route so they can find new paths to the destination if the path is damaged. They save energy by switching to sleep mode, and they can help eachother hauling cargo if it is too Heavy, several robot join to haul the cargo.



or tell us how did bacterill motor evolved from what??? having 40 different Components, like rotor, stator, clutch, gear, propeller, and use fructose as fuel?


tell us how could MO-1 bacteria evolve wich have 7 motors in one and use magnet to navigate.



« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 10:51:48 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2016, 08:53:14 am »
Brother Dawud,
I have conclusively demonstrated that the so-called miracle as described by brother Osama can be easily constructed by a human being.

This is what Osama says is a miracle:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm
The Glorious Quran has 114 Chapters. The sum of those Chapters is 6555 (1+2+...+114 = 6555). There are also 6236 Noble Verses in the Glorious Quran. Now, IF YOU ADD EACH CHAPTER # with the number of its Verses, then you get a list of numbers. So 1 (first Chapter) + 7 (# of its Verses) = 8. Do this for all Chapters.
1-  The sum of the odd numbers from the list = 6555.
2-  The sum of the even numbers from the list = 6236.
I quickly and easily reproduced that “miracle”, conclusively discounting Osama’s assertion.

Now, brother Dawud, you seek to add additional constraints to this mere trick of numerological construction.  In American parlance we call that “moving the goalposts”.

I am sorry Osama but i have to put this photo to show him how deluded he is


now tell me

who could know that these Waves existed Deep in the ocean, it clearly says in darkness in Deep sea there are Waves

and finally scientists find it these Waves 3 miles beneath the Surface, who could know in 7th Century when quran was revealed that there are such Waves in Deep sea when you can see a hand in front of your face?



« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 10:54:09 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2016, 08:56:19 am »
But... But

Brother Dawud!!!

What are you talking about??

Sayyidna Muhammad PBUH was a scuba diver... no not really.. he had a submarine lol


Akhi... don't waste your time.. this guy has an agenda... a NWO one. Maybe Sam Shamoun or some other Zionist sent him here

Let him drown akhi... let him drown. It is his choice

After all brother, Hell-fire needs fuel... that is why such people exist

Assalam brother Dawud

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2016, 09:10:10 am »
Brother Dawud,
You have given me an very easy task.

"If you Think it is easy to do, let make an experiment, use 10 first chapter, and use what ever verse number to specific chapter as you wish, and make it so that

sum of chapters, = sum of odd
sum of verses, = sum of evens

just do it with 10 chapters if you can"

Ch   Vs   Ev   Odd
1   23   24   
2   36   38   
3   47   50   
4   23      27
5   27   32   
6   62   68   
7    2       9
8   66   74   
9   10      19
10    2   12   
         
Sum   Sum   Sum   Sum
55   298   298   55

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an.  All asserted numerological "miracles" are the result of
1. Intentional human construction
2. Chance
3. Reverse association of numerical relationships by cherry picking

As'salamu Alaikum brother Dawud


Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2016, 09:21:10 am »
You can keep barking

While we revel in the Quran's overwhelming miracles.

I pity the few minutes I spent replying to you.. but maybe my replies will benefit another Muslim or non Muslim inshallah

Enjoy your evolution hoax theory... and the new world order. it is made for people like you

Enjoy it while it lasts... life is fast fleeting.


You can now go collect your shekels...

Assalamu 3al.... Ooops

I meant to say: Shalom Hasbara :)

Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2016, 09:33:31 am »
Brother Dawud,
You have given me an very easy task.

"If you Think it is easy to do, let make an experiment, use 10 first chapter, and use what ever verse number to specific chapter as you wish, and make it so that

sum of chapters, = sum of odd
sum of verses, = sum of evens

just do it with 10 chapters if you can"

Ch   Vs   Ev   Odd
1   23   24   
2   36   38   
3   47   50   
4   23      27
5   27   32   
6   62   68   
7    2       9
8   66   74   
9   10      19
10    2   12   
         
Sum   Sum   Sum   Sum
55   298   298   55

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an.  All asserted numerological "miracles" are the result of
1. Intentional human construction
2. Chance
3. Reverse association of numerical relationships by cherry picking

As'salamu Alaikum brother Dawud
you have succeded with first task

now program golden ratio into that number and make the chapter and verse numbers symetrical like it is in quran

what you deed is not enough if you want to match quranic programming.

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #57 on: January 14, 2016, 10:58:32 pm »
Brother Dawud,
So you and I agree that brother Osama’s assertion that
sum of chapters, = sum of odd
sum of verses, = sum of evens
constitutes a miracle is false.

We agree that it is trivial for a human being to construct such an arrangement, which disqualifies Osama’s published rationale for a “scientific miracle”.

Now, you have added 2 criteria that you claim make this arrangement a true miracle
1.   That the number of even sums equals the odd sums
2.   That the ratio as described above is the golden ratio, which is necessarily a miracle.

Sorry, brother Dawud, you are as mistaken as Osama in your assertion of the necessity of a miracle to explain these items.

First, getting the even sums to match the odd sums is trivial.  There is no upper bound on the number of such solutions.  I could list them for you as fast as I can write.  But I will give you just one

Ch      Vs      Ev      Odd
1      23      24      
2      7             9
3      47      50      
4      7             11
5      27      32      
6      5             11
7      2             9
8      66      74      
9      6             15
10      2      12      
                     
Sum      Sum      Sum      Sum
55      192      192      55


As for your second assertion it is false on several counts.

First, you have falsely stated the golden ratio.  The golden ratio does not equal 7905/4885.  The golden ratio equals  (1 + sqrt(5))/2.
1.6182190378710337768… = 7905/4885
1.6180339887498948482...  = (1 + sqrt(5))/2
Surly the all knowing creator of the universe who knows every subatomic detail of the entire universe would know these numbers are not equal!

Your assertion is also false because it is easily explained by reverse cherry picking.  If the ratio had turned out to be
2.718
you may as well have said “ah ha!!!  The base of natural logarithms!!!”
And why 7905/4885?  Why not 4885/7905?  Your choice is arbitrary and merely a reverse engineered cherry picking.
There are endless ratios and numbers in nature and mathematics.  There are endless ways to count chapters and verses and letters in the Qur’an.  Eventually you can find a match to 3 decimal places.  No miracle needed.

Sorry brothers Dawud and Osama, your arguments for the necessity of a miracle in this case are nonsense, and the demonstration of their falsehood is trivial.

Peace to you both


Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2016, 01:09:22 am »
Shalom Hasbara

I can feel the butthurt starting to come into light   ;D

Take a chill pill and try and remain calm... If it still hurts apply cream to sore area :)


Anyhow... I shall make a thread about this, but first let me post this one here..

"I want to ask how atheists explain how an illiterate man  produced the inimitable Quran which contains abundance of scientific and historic facts that were unknown at that time.  It corrects scientific and historical mistakes in the Bible too.  For instance, at the time of Joseph,  the leaders of Egypt were called Kings (not pharoahs)  but at the time of Moses they were called Pharoah.  The Quran has an entire chapter that relates the story of Joseph and it never refers to the king of Egypt as Pharoah (unlike the bible). When Moses is mentioned in the Bible the ruler of Egypt is called Pharoah and not king. 

And the Sunnah as well,  which is also revelation from Almighty God:




It is one of the common laugh at hadith by critics and Islam haters, however as we will show below the subject is not be laughed at but rather cried at, because it is another clear proof that Islam is the truth and that Muhammad was a messenger of God as he would not be able to know such information without revelation from God.

The Hadeeth on the Fly

One Wing Carrying Disease and the  Other Carrying the Cure

***

Student Research Seminar Team 
Course Med 497


Team Supervised By 
Dr. Jamaal Haamid

Students:

1-Sami Ibrahim Aj-Taili
2-'Aadil 'Abdur Rahman Al-Misnid
3-Khalid Dha'aar Al-'Utaibi.

Dept. Medical Microbiology
College of Science
Qassim University

Course Co-Coordinator
Dr. Saleh As-Saleh (rahimahullaah)


In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

Allah, the Most Might and Most Majestic, sent the Prophet Muhammad
(sallallaahu 'aleihi was-sallam: may Allah Exalt his mention, and render him
safe from all derogatory things), with guidance and the truth and said about him:


Nor does he (Muhammad sallallaahu 'aleihi was-sallam) speak of (his own)
desire. It is only a Revelation revealed [Translation of the meaning of the Qur'an;
Ch. 53, verses 3 & 4).
 
And from this, is the Prophet (sallallaahu 'aleihi was-sallam) saying:

"If a housefly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the
drink), for the one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure of
the disease." [Bukhari, vol. 4: 537].




Panel A   

Plate 2- Cultured water sample taken from a flask containing sterilized water and
where a fly fell (without submersion). Growth of pathogenic (disease causing)
bacterial colonies of the E Coli type were identified after taking samples from the
water in the flask for culture.   

Plate 1- Cultured water sample from the same flask following the complete dipping
of the fly. An entire disappearance of the bacterial growth seen in Petri-dish 2 is
clear. The new bacteria growing in plate 1 was identified as Actinomyces, the one
from which useful antibiotics can be extracted. This explains the complete
inhibition of growth in plate 2



Panel B

Same as in Panel A,  but from another fly.

Plate 2- Cultured water sample taken from a flask containing sterilized water and
where a fly fell (without submersion). Growth of pathogenic (disease causing)
bacterial colonies of the Coynebacterium Dephtheroid type were identified after
taking samples from the water in the flask for culture.   

Plate 1- Cultured water sample from the same flask following the complete dipping
of the fly. An entire disappearance of the bacterial growth seen in Petri-dish 2 is
clear. The new bacteria growing in plate 1 was identified as Actinomyces, the one
from which useful antibiotics (more than 70%) can be extracted. This explains the
complete inhibition of growth in plate 2





                                                                     
Panel C

Panel C: Same as before, yet with another fly.


Plate 2- Cultured water sample taken from a flask containing sterilized water and
where a fly fell (without submersion). Growth of pathogenic (disease causing)
bacterial colonies of the  Staphylococcus sp. type. were identified after taking
samples from the water in the flask for culture.   

Plate 1- Cultured water sample from the same flask following the complete dipping
of the fly. An entire disappearance of the bacterial growth seen in Petri-dish 2 is
clear. The new bacteria growing in plate 1 was identified as Actinomyces, the one
from which useful antibiotics can be extracted. This explains the complete
inhibition of growth in plate 2

The Same results were obtained with another type of disease-causing bacteria of the Salmonellas sp + proteus sp. Type.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 10:58:32 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2016, 02:47:50 am »
Brother Dawud,
So you and I agree that brother Osama’s assertion that
sum of chapters, = sum of odd
sum of verses, = sum of evens
constitutes a miracle is false.

We agree that it is trivial for a human being to construct such an arrangement, which disqualifies Osama’s published rationale for a “scientific miracle”.

Now, you have added 2 criteria that you claim make this arrangement a true miracle
1.   That the number of even sums equals the odd sums
2.   That the ratio as described above is the golden ratio, which is necessarily a miracle.

Sorry, brother Dawud, you are as mistaken as Osama in your assertion of the necessity of a miracle to explain these items.

First, getting the even sums to match the odd sums is trivial.  There is no upper bound on the number of such solutions.  I could list them for you as fast as I can write.  But I will give you just one

Ch      Vs      Ev      Odd
1      23      24      
2      7             9
3      47      50      
4      7             11
5      27      32      
6      5             11
7      2             9
8      66      74      
9      6             15
10      2      12      
                     
Sum      Sum      Sum      Sum
55      192      192      55


As for your second assertion it is false on several counts.

First, you have falsely stated the golden ratio.  The golden ratio does not equal 7905/4885.  The golden ratio equals  (1 + sqrt(5))/2.
1.6182190378710337768… = 7905/4885
1.6180339887498948482...  = (1 + sqrt(5))/2
Surly the all knowing creator of the universe who knows every subatomic detail of the entire universe would know these numbers are not equal!

Your assertion is also false because it is easily explained by reverse cherry picking.  If the ratio had turned out to be
2.718
you may as well have said “ah ha!!!  The base of natural logarithms!!!”
And why 7905/4885?  Why not 4885/7905?  Your choice is arbitrary and merely a reverse engineered cherry picking.
There are endless ratios and numbers in nature and mathematics.  There are endless ways to count chapters and verses and letters in the Qur’an.  Eventually you can find a match to 3 decimal places.  No miracle needed.

Sorry brothers Dawud and Osama, your arguments for the necessity of a miracle in this case are nonsense, and the demonstration of their falsehood is trivial.

Peace to you both

Quote
Brother Dawud,
So you and I agree that brother Osama’s assertion that
sum of chapters, = sum of odd
sum of verses, = sum of evens
constitutes a miracle is false

no only that, but you have to incorporate golden ratio and simetry in that

let say that we have only this
sum of chapters, = sum of odd
sum of verses, = sum of evens

then this is also a miracle if you look at it from Another perspective, muhammed was illitarate could not read nor write, tell me how could he program it like this and wich makes it even worse for you is that verses were not numbered until last decade

when it comes from illitarate person then it is miraclous, but beacuse it is not ony
sum of chapters, = sum of odd
sum of verses, = sum of evens

there are also golden ratio and simetry involved.



Quote
First, you have falsely stated the golden ratio.  The golden ratio does not equal 7905/4885.  The golden ratio equals  (1 + sqrt(5))/2.
1.6182190378710337768… = 7905/4885
1.6180339887498948482...  = (1 + sqrt(5))/2
Surly the all knowing creator of the universe who knows every subatomic detail of the entire universe would know these numbers are not equal!

golden ratio is allways take as 3 decimals beacuse it is irrational number of never ending decimals, so you take only 3 decimals


http://www.livescience.com/37704-phi-golden-ratio.html
As with pi (the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter), the digits go on and on, theoretically into infinity. Phi is usually rounded off to 1.618.


http://www.goldennumber.net/
This site is dedicated to sharing the best information on Phi, the number 1.618, with insights from dozens of Contributors on a broad range of topics (See Site Map). 

the fact is golden ratio is programmed in chapter and verses between repetetive and non-repetetive numbers, no matter how difficult for your it is to swallow, i know the truth hurt sometimes :)

Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2016, 02:56:01 am »
One more thing you have to factor in brother Dawud


The Quran was NOT revealed one Surah at a time.. or in chronological order

The Surah were revealed "haphazardly"

Few verses from one Surah, then Allah moves to another Surah and fills some verses there.... etc

All over a period of 23 years

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-ULa2JzPG0

Quran's Challenge for a Literary Equivalent to God's Words remains unmatched even after One and a Half Millenium.

And now using the most modern of Technological means of communication available to us, The Linguistic Miracles are being re-told so that anyone and everyone can enjoy these Linguistic Miracles of The Divine Book.

To better Appreciate these Miracles do keep in Mind that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) couldn't Read or Write and He (pbuh) couldn't edit or re-edit the words once they had come out of his (pbuh) mouth. As they were immediately spread far and wide. Any case of editing would have been picked up on by his (pbuh) enemies and spread far and wide to discredit him (pbuh) and would have been very very widely reported. so the Whole Quran is one oral attempt with no editing process whatsoever.

None COULD HAVE ENGINEERED THEE QURAN BUT ALLAH HIMSELF


You can boil in your rage and hatred mr. Hasbara

Salam :)

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2016, 04:43:15 am »
An off-topic but important post:

Commenters should refrain from using indecent language for "StardustyPsyche".

Qur'an:

“Invite (mankind, O Muhammad SAW) to the Way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Inspiration and the Quran) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better...
(Qur'an, Surah an-Nahl(16):125)

Once, a scholar entered into the presence of an ‘Abbaasi caliph and said: “I am going to admonish you in a harsh manner, so listen.” Upon hearing this, the caliph said: “O brother! Be gentle, for I am not worse than Pharaoh, and you are not better than Moosaa whom Allah addressed along with his brother, Haaroon, saying:

And speak to him [i.e. Pharoah] with gentle speech that perhaps he may be reminded or fear [ Allah ]."
(Qur'an, Surah Taha(20):44)

Hadith:

Our religion does not even allow us to revile and abuse the sinner. Abu Hurayrah, may Allaah be pleased with him, reported: “A man drank alcohol so he was brought before the Prophet sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam who said: "Beat him (according to the rules set by Allah)." Abu Hurayrah, said: Some of us beat him with our hands, others with their sandals and still others with pieces of cloth. When the man went away, some said: May Allaah humiliate you! Whereupon, the Prophet sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam said: “Do not say that. Do not support Shaytaan against your fellow brother”. (Bukhaari).
Source: http://www.alminbar.com/khutbaheng/334.htm

‘The best amongst you are those who have the best manners and character.’ (Bukhaari)

“The Prophet (Sal Allaahu Alaiyhi wa Sallam) was not one who would abuse (others) or say obscene words, or curse (others)…” (Bukhaari)

“The inmates of Hell are of five types….” And among them he mentioned “…the miser, the liar and those who are in the habit of abusing people and using obscene and foul language.” (Muslim)

Source: http://www.farhathashmi.com/articles-section/belief-and-introspection/foul-language/

“Truly a man utters words to which he attaches no importance, and by them he falls into the Fire of Jahannam, and truly a man utters words to which he attaches no importance, and by them Allah raises him into the Garden.” (Bukhaari)
Source: Al-Muwatta Of Iman Malik Ibn Ana By Anas

From the cursory checking I've done, these narrations seem to be authentic. Even if, in the worst case scenario "StardustyPsyche" is actually insincere, words such as "filth" etc. should not be used against him by Muslims following Prophet Muhammad's example.
Furthermore, Allah knows best what is in the hearts of people, we are not in a position to make that judgement in this matter.

Regards,

Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2016, 06:28:29 am »
Absolutely correct Akhi Ahmad

However this guy is not coming here to learn or genuinely inquire

He is like all Hasbara shills here to stir trouble

I been dealing with people like him for more than 10 years now akhi.. i can smell one miles away

If he was sincere, believe me akhi, i'd do my utmost to answer every single question or answer he may bring forth.But he isn't


And Allah knows best

Assalam brother


Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2016, 06:32:58 am »
Shukran for the reminder akhi, nonetheless

We all need reminders every now and then


Subhan Allah

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2016, 10:19:05 am »
Brother Dawud,
So, I see you assert that Allah uses an approximation because humans "always" use an approximation.

Very well, if Allah is only approximately correct, I will improve upon his work by using the true approximation, rather than a long decimal that only comes close to the correct number.

I shall precisely truncate the golden ratio in this example
ChapterVersesEvenOddRptNon-Rpt
1101110
29119
38118
47117
56116
6318324318
7809816809
8320328320
9809818809
10322332322
SumSumSumSumSumSum
55261826185516181000

You see that 1618/1000 = 1.618 exactly, so my answer is a better representation of the approximation "always" used. 

Your assertion of the 4 criteria as a miracle is false, because a mere human being has met them herein.





Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2016, 12:13:49 pm »
Now come up with a meaningful Surah with the same equation in mind... Like the one below




Translation:

Surah Al Jinn:

The total number of the Letters in this Noble Surah is 285

This is a multiple of the number 19: 15 x 19 = 285

This Surah ended with Alah SWT saying "Wa Ahsa kulla Shay2en 3adadan": "and has enumerated all things in number." Surah Al Jinn:28


The wondrous thing here is that the total of the repetition of the letters: 3ayn, Da, Da, Alif (ا, د,د, ع) is:

 ع: 37

د: 54

د: 54

ا: 216

The total of the above amounts to 37+54+54"216= 361

Another multiple of 19: 19 x 19 = 361

Every single Ayah of the Surah Al Jinn ended with a specific word: 3ajaba, Ahada, Walada, Shatata...

The marvel here is that the total of the letters of the words (3ajaba, Ahada, Walada, Shatata... etc) is 114

And this number is equal to the number of the Surahs in the Quran and is another multiple of 19: 6 x 19= 114


None could have engineered the Quran but Allah SWT himself



Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2016, 01:09:02 pm »
Brother Ahmad,
"Commenters should refrain from using indecent language for "StardustyPsyche".

I appreciate your kind words.  I have heard much worse then those of Mr. Habbal  :)  It will take a great deal more than a few sporadic words of insult and false assumption on a blog to bother me at all.

But, I suspect you are only partly expressing this out of concern for me.  I think it likely your primary goal is to maintain your own integrity and the integrity of a community you feel a part of.  Fair enough.

You have corrected my apparently false conclusion that you agree there are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an. 

Do you have any specific items you assert are scientific miracles in the Qur'an?  I don't know you very much at all, but at this point I have the impression there is somewhat of a disconnect between your feeling that the Qur'an has scientific miracles, yet I have not noticed a specific assertion of any from you.

Please correct me if I am wrong in your view.


Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2016, 02:08:12 pm »
"None could have engineered the Quran but Allah SWT himself"

There was much time to engineer the Qur'an before the words were written on our earliest surviving example.

It is not difficult to write text, count up letters and words and verses and chapters, then make adjustments in word choice, ordering, and sentence choice to maintain the desired meaning but conform to the numerological wishes of the scribe.

In fact, numerology might explain the haphazard ordering of the Qur'an.

The Qur'an is not in chronological order as I am sure you know.  It is somewhat in reverse chronological order, but there are many exceptions even to that.

It is not even in length order strictly. 

When I engineered the examples that clearly prove the errors of brothers Osama and Dawud I started with something close and then made adjustments as needed to fit the criteria.  One of my techniques was to change the order of entry to produce certain numerical changes that fit my predetermined criteria.

If I can do it so could 7th century man.  I respect the intelligence of ancient men.  Some of them dedicated their lives to the Qur'an, without the distractions of modern life, rather, dedicating thousands upon thousands of hours of recitation, memorization, and study in minute detail.

Shakespeare wrote in iambic pentameter, Japanese write in haiku, and there are many examples globally of humans who craft their words to fit their aesthetic tastes in numerological associations.

You have provided only a few simple multiplication and addition examples.  The only mystery is why anybody would thing for a moment they are miraculous.

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2016, 03:53:23 pm »
Brother Dawud,
I believe I may have applied a different numerological algorithm than the one you specified!

No matter, I solved it with another algorithm, the below entry matches my most recent reading of your algorithm.  That is one of the fascinating things about iterative numerical methods.  One may curve fit using a wide variety of functions and arrive at a solution to the specified degree of accuracy, in this case 3 decimal places.  The solution converges on a different set of coefficients, but is just as valid as any other solution.

Again please note, 1618/1000 = 1.618, an exact representation of the approximation "everybody" uses.


ChapterVersesEvenOddRptNon-Rpt
1222323
2799
3222525
4599
5263131
691515
7283535
851313
9202929
10112121
11389400400
12388400400
13387400400
14386400400
15107122122
16104120120
17177194194
1890108108
19127146146
2098118118
SumSumSumSumSumSum
2102408240821016181000

If you find any errors in my calculations please me know, after all, the ancient men who embedded these numerological arrangements had decades to do so and I just started a couple days ago!

Peace Bro






Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2016, 05:20:49 pm »
Mr. Habbal,
The alternate fly wing antidote Hadith is a scientific miracle?

Yes, of course people laugh at that.  It makes no sense of any kind.  Even brother Osama steers the reader toward the possibility of corrupted Hadiths here:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/hadiths_of_the_fly.htm

Your petri dish nonsense is debunked here:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/01/29/islamic-science-has-come-to-this-pitiful-end/

Other claims of this truly absurd "miracle" are debunked here:
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Diseases_and_Cures_in_the_Wings_of_Houseflies

If your child gets a bacterial infection will you really request the physician to use a fly that has that same pathogen on one wing, extract the antidote from the other wing, and give it to your child to swallow?

Please tell me the name of the Islamic university hospital where this is successfully practiced, and please give me a link to the peer reviewed medical journal article documenting the efficacy of this technique.







Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2016, 06:16:28 pm »
Brother Dawud,
"no it does not, science is empirical , wich means what you see and test that is science, you cant test and do experiment for million of years to prove evolution, so it stay just a theory"

Forensic science is just that, a science.  Actually, all science is done in the past, since light takes a finite time to reach our eyes.  That may seem trivial, but in modern science that fact is actually very important to understanding certain experimental results.

"In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"—part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus creationists can (and do) argue: evolution is "only" a theory", ...

"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts." ...
...from the classic piece by Gould
Evolution as Fact and Theory
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html

If it were impossible to make scientific judgements based on study of past events we could never convict a criminal based on forensic evidence, nor could we do historical research, archeology, or astronomy.  The fact of evolution is seen in scientific study of the past and modern laboratory experiments in chemistry and biology.

I invite you to study the definitions of "scientific fact" and "scientific theory". 

Peace bro






Offline submit

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2016, 08:42:51 pm »

If your child gets a bacterial infection will you really request the physician to use a fly that has that same pathogen on one wing, extract the antidote from the other wing, and give it to your child to swallow?

The hadith is not saying to catch flies and use it as medicine, but if there is a fly in glass, you dont waste the water in the glass but just dip the fly thru. Water can still be used.

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2016, 11:05:25 pm »
submit,
Yes, I realize the Hadith does not explicitly call for the extraction of medicine from the wings of flies.  I am employing argumentum ad absurdum to demonstrate my position.

Here is an example of how a human being gets sick from a fly:
1. Fly lands on animal feces.
2. Feces containing microorganisms harmful to humans but harmless to flies gets stuck to the fly.
3. Fly flies away from animal feces.
4. Fly lands on human food or drink.
5. Animal feces on fly transfers to human food or drink carrying the harmful microorganisms with it.
6. Fly flies away from human food or drink.
7. Human being consumes human food or drink, along with the animal feces and harmful microorganisms transferred in the above steps.
8. Harmful microorganisms invade human being.
9. Harmful microorganisms multiply and the human being becomes infected.

Please consider if we "just dip the fly thru" after step 5 but before step 6.  The only result will be further contamination unless there really is an antidote to the microorganisms on the alternate wing of the fly.

Do you really believe in an antidote on the opposite wing?

If so, then it is reasonable to use the information in this Hadith to cure human infections. 
1. Capture a fly.
2. Test 1 wing for pathogens.
3. If a pathogen is found dip the other wing in a solvent to capture the antidote in solution.
4. Process the dissolved antidote into a deliverable medicine form.
5. Whenever an individual is identified with an infection of the type of pathogen identified in step 2 administer the antidote medicine obtained in step 4.

I have carried this Hadith to its logical conclusions.  If you find these conclusions as absurd as I do then I urge you to do as brother Osama has done and question the validity of this Hadith.











Offline submit

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2016, 12:24:05 am »
submit,
Yes, I realize the Hadith does not explicitly call for the extraction of medicine from the wings of flies.  I am employing argumentum ad absurdum to demonstrate my position.

Do you really believe in an antidote on the opposite wing?

If so, then it is reasonable to use the information in this Hadith to cure human infections. 
1. Capture a fly.
2. Test 1 wing for pathogens.
3. If a pathogen is found dip the other wing in a solvent to capture the antidote in solution.
4. Process the dissolved antidote into a deliverable medicine form.
5. Whenever an individual is identified with an infection of the type of pathogen identified in step 2 administer the antidote medicine obtained in step 4.

You said you realized but then you do not realize what you post. There is no need to capture it. Reread the hadith. Its also not about looking for sick patients after the act of dipping the fly. Hope this will aid in your logical assessment of the hadith.

Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #74 on: January 16, 2016, 07:39:29 am »
Brother Dawud,
I believe I may have applied a different numerological algorithm than the one you specified!

No matter, I solved it with another algorithm, the below entry matches my most recent reading of your algorithm.  That is one of the fascinating things about iterative numerical methods.  One may curve fit using a wide variety of functions and arrive at a solution to the specified degree of accuracy, in this case 3 decimal places.  The solution converges on a different set of coefficients, but is just as valid as any other solution.

Again please note, 1618/1000 = 1.618, an exact representation of the approximation "everybody" uses.


ChapterVersesEvenOddRptNon-Rpt
1222323
2799
3222525
4599
5263131
691515
7283535
851313
9202929
10112121
11389400400
12388400400
13387400400
14386400400
15107122122
16104120120
17177194194
1890108108
19127146146
2098118118
SumSumSumSumSumSum
2102408240821016181000

If you find any errors in my calculations please me know, after all, the ancient men who embedded these numerological arrangements had decades to do so and I just started a couple days ago!

Peace Bro

you have now succeeded programming chapter-verse-odd-even and golden ratio, good

but that is not all man, yo uthink you have already matched quran that was only easy part, now comes more difficult part wich will rape your mind

you have to syncronaise naumbers with that programming and that numberse are symetrical


look this now


What is symmetri?

Symmetri, Yes

15--16--I--16--15 or 17--17--I--14--14

Symmetri, NO

15--16--I--17--15 or this 16--14--I--7--9


Quran is symmetrical book


Odd and Even numbers
Odd and Even numbers

(Sequence number of Chapter)-(Verses)

4 combination:

odd-odd
odd-even
even-even
even-odd


example first chapter Fatiha has sequence number 1 and 7 verses,
then it is in ODD-ODD section

Look how Quran is constructed
symmetrically, Amazing



Homogenus are ODD-ODD, EVEN-EVEN

Non-homogenus are odd-even, even-odd

It is also
constructed simmetrically



Now we divide Quran in half,
first part of quran 57 chapters, and second part quran 57 chapters

even
this is also symetrical between homogenus and non-homogenus


Surahs of which the number of ayats are greater than sequence number




Surahs of which the number of ayats are smaller than sequence number




Sequence Numbers Set and Number of Ayats Set
example: Chapter/Surah with sequence nr 3, nr of ayats/verses 3 can be found at seequence nr 108 and 110




The numbers which are divided by two and not divided by three



The numbers which are divided by three and not divided by two



The numbers which are neither divisible by two nor by three



and i you succeed with this wich i doubt you will, await something even greater than all of this.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 11:05:14 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #75 on: January 16, 2016, 10:39:34 am »
Question to arabic speakers

what does this two words mean

fromverse
76:28
نَحْنُ خَلَقْنَاهُمْ وَشَدَدْنَا أَسْرَهُمْ ۖ وَإِذَا شِئْنَا بَدَّلْنَا أَمْثَالَهُمْ تَبْدِيلًاِ
washadadna asrahum

does it mean
 We strengthened their form

some translate it like this


We created them and fixed their bones and joints;

We created them and made their joints strong,

We created them and made their joints firm,

We created them, and We strengthened their joints;

We created them and strengthened their joints;

Why do they translate joints, is asrahum (their joints) or ???

why do i ask this beacuse

from the begining of the Chapter Insan (Human)

to the word (We strengthened their joints / We trengthened their form) there is 206 words

and we know today that humans have 206 bones in their body

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bones_of_the_human_skeleton
The skeleton of an adult human consists of 206 bones. It is composed of 270 bones at birth, which decreases to 206 bones by adulthood after some bones have fused together

The 206 Bones of the Human Body
http://www.cs.rpi.edu/~kleine/anatomy/bones.html

http://www.ivyroses.com/HumanBody/Skeletal/how-many-bones-in-the-human-body.php
There are 206 named bones a normal, complete, adult human skeleton.

evidence

Hal ata AAala alinsani heenun mina alddahri lam yakun shayan mathkooran
Inna khalaqna alinsana min nutfatin amshajin nabtaleehi fajaAAalnahu sameeAAan baseeran
Inna hadaynahu alssabeela imma shakiran waimma kafooran
Inna aAAtadna lilkafireena salasila waaghlalan wasaAAeeran
Inna alabrara yashraboona min kasin kana mizajuha kafooran
AAaynan yashrabu biha AAibadu Allahi yufajjiroonaha tafjeeran
Yoofoona bialnnathri wayakhafoona yawman kana sharruhu mustateeran
WayutAAimona alttaAAama AAala hubbihi miskeenan wayateeman waaseeran
Innama nutAAimukum liwajhi Allahi la nureedu minkum jazaan wala shukooran
Inna nakhafu min rabbina yawman AAaboosan qamtareeran
Fawaqahumu Allahu sharra thalika alyawmi walaqqahum nadratan wasurooran
Wajazahum bima sabaroo jannatan wahareeran
Muttakieena feeha AAala alaraiki la yarawna feeha shamsan wala zamhareeran
Wadaniyatan AAalayhim thilaluha wathullilat qutoofuha tathleelan
Wayutafu AAalayhim bianiyatin min fiddatin waakwabin kanat qawareera
Qawareera min fiddatin qaddarooha taqdeeran
Wayusqawna feeha kasan kana mizajuha zanjabeelan
AAaynan feeha tusamma salsabeelan
Wayatoofu AAalayhim wildanun mukhalladoona itha raaytahum hasibtahum luluan manthooran
Waitha raayta thamma raayta naAAeeman wamulkan kabeeran
AAaliyahum thiyabu sundusin khudrun waistabraqun wahulloo asawira min fiddatin wasaqahum rabbuhum sharaban tahooran
Inna hatha kana lakum jazaan wakana saAAyukum mashkooran
Inna nahnu nazzalna AAalayka alqurana tanzeelan
Faisbir lihukmi rabbika wala tutiAA minhum athiman aw kafooran
Waothkuri isma rabbika bukratan waaseelan
Wamina allayli faosjud lahu wasabbihhu laylan taweelan
Inna haolai yuhibboona alAAajilata wayatharoona waraahum yawman thaqeelan
Nahnu khalaqnahum


copy this and you will get 206 words to the word washadadna (we strengthened)

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #76 on: January 16, 2016, 10:40:39 am »
I have conclusively proved that the claim of a miracle made by brother Osama is false and should be removed from his posted claims.

I have no independent means to verify your latest asserted set of relationships even exits, and I have no intention of counting verses in the Qur'an myself.

To work on your latest set of "miraculous" criteria I would need in text form a summary of all the data cited, preferably in .xls or .csv form.  If you could clearly and concisely list in text form all the relations of all the components you wish to engineer into your "miracle" I can work on it over time.

My assertion stands, that there are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an, and the asserted numerological associations are within the capability of 7th century man to engineer into the texts.

Oh, but I did another solution!  This time I duplicated the exact numbers of the so called golden ratio supposedly created in code by Allah.  And I can assure you, I am not Allah, yet I produced these numbers.  There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an


ChapterVersesEvenOddRptNon-Rpt
1161717
2799
3161919
4599
5202525
691515
7283535
851313
9202929
10196219721972
11196119721972
12196019721972
13195919721972
14110411181118
15117711921192
16109011061106
17112711441144
18154172172
SumSumSumSumSumSum
171126201262017179064885










Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #77 on: January 16, 2016, 10:54:35 am »
I have conclusively proved that the claim of a miracle made by brother Osama is false and should be removed from his posted claims.

I have no independent means to verify your latest asserted set of relationships even exits, and I have no intention of counting verses in the Qur'an myself.

To work on your latest set of "miraculous" criteria I would need in text form a summary of all the data cited, preferably in .xls or .csv form.  If you could clearly and concisely list in text form all the relations of all the components you wish to engineer into your "miracle" I can work on it over time.

My assertion stands, that there are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an, and the asserted numerological associations are within the capability of 7th century man to engineer into the texts.

Oh, but I did another solution!  This time I duplicated the exact numbers of the so called golden ratio supposedly created in code by Allah.  And I can assure you, I am not Allah, yet I produced these numbers.  There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an


ChapterVersesEvenOddRptNon-Rpt
1161717
2799
3161919
4599
5202525
691515
7283535
851313
9202929
10196219721972
11196119721972
12196019721972
13195919721972
14110411181118
15117711921192
16109011061106
17112711441144
18154172172
SumSumSumSumSumSum
171126201262017179064885

then you are a liar in that case to deny obvious facts from verses and hadith, yo uactually lie to yourself.

here is another challenge for you, let see how you will manage to challenge it



to verify this use this calulator
http://web2.0calc.com/

« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 11:07:10 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #78 on: January 16, 2016, 11:28:41 am »
Always save your ammo for later..

Here is your debunking debunked.

P.S: i did not insult you. simply called you for what you really are. A Hasbara shill. A shekel per post agent :) Fair?



Ugly but useful: The sheep blowfly is one of the fly species that might provide humans with New Antibiotics.

The surface of flies is the last place you would expect to find antibiotics, yet that is exactly where a team of Australian researchers is concentrating their efforts.

Working on the theory that flies must have remarkable antimicrobial defences to survive rotting dung, meat and fruit, the team at the Department of Biological Sciences, Macquarie University, set out to identify those antibacterial properties manifesting at different stages of a fly's development.

"Our research is a small part of a global research effort for new antibiotics, but we are looking where we believe no-one has looked before," said Ms Joanne Clarke, who presented the group's findings at the Australian Society for Microbiology Conference in Melbourne this week. The project is part of her PhD thesis.

The scientists tested four different species of fly: a house fly, a sheep blowfly, a vinegar fruit fly and the control, a Queensland fruit fly which lays its eggs in fresh fruit. These larvae do not need as much antibacterial compound because they do not come into contact with as much bacteria.

Flies go through the life stages of larvae and pupae before becoming adults. In the pupae stage, the fly is encased in a protective casing and does not feed. "We predicted they would not produce many antibiotics," said Ms Clarke.

They did not. However the larvae all showed antibacterial properties (except that of the Queensland fruit fly control).

As did all the adult fly species, including the Queensland fruit fly (which at this point requires antibacterial protection because it has contact with other flies and is mobile).

Such properties were present on the fly surface in all four species, although antibacterial properties occur in the gut as well. "You find activity in both places," said Ms Clarke.

"The reason we concentrated on the surface is because it is a simpler extraction."

The antibiotic material is extracted by drowning the flies in ethanol, then running the mixture through a filter to obtain the crude extract.

When this was placed in a solution with various bacteria including E.coli, Golden Staph, Candida (a yeast) and a common hospital pathogen, antibiotic action was observed every time.

"We are now trying to identify the specific antibacterial compounds," said Ms Clarke. Ultimately these will be chemically synthesised.

Because the compounds are not from bacteria, any genes conferring resistance to them may not be as easily transferred into pathogens. It is hoped this new form of antibiotics will have a longer effective therapeutic life.

CHUTNEY

And that's not where it stops... there is MOAR Big Grin from other research centers.

Antibacterial action of Myiasis-causing flies.


Erdmann GR.
Department of Pharmacy Practice, College of Pharmacy, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN 55455, USA.

Some species of calliphorid blowflies lay their eggs in wounds; their larvae develop by feeding on the tissue, and the infection is known as myiasis or fly-strike. But wounds, from whatever cause, are frequently contaminated with bacteria - many o f which can spread in the bloodstream causing septicaemia and/or toxaemia. For example, wound contamination with Clostridium welchii - leading to 'gas gangrene' - was a frequent cause of death amongst battlefield casualties. It is from such situations that early observations were made on the beneficial effect of some blowfly larvae in limiting the bacterial infection of wounds. Indeed, some military surgeons would deliberately infest wounds with blowfly maggots in order to prevent bacterial complications. Now, a century or two later, the search for new antibiotics had led researchers back to these early observations, and in this article, Gory Erdmann describes progress in understanding the antibacterial action of blowfly maggots.

PMID: 15462958 [PubMed]

RAITA

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...1000001517

Oh and MOAR yet again...

"Brazilian Journal of Microbiology
Print version ISSN 1517-8382
Braz. J. Microbiol. vol.39 no.2 São Paulo Apr./June 2008
doi: 10.1590/S1517-83822008000200035

VETERINARY MICROBIOLOGY

Antibacterial activities of multi drug resistant Myroides odoratimimus bacteria isolated from adult flesh flies (Diptera: Sarcophagidae) are independent of metallo beta-lactamase gene"

GRAVY

And there is more, but check the links out, and let me know what you think?

NOW - IS THIS MIND BLOWING OR WHAT?

This Hadeeth has been proven by NON MUSLIM SCIENTISTS and BIOLOGISTS.

As you can read above.


Sorry here i come yet again to burst your bubble


You are just lying to yourself and making me laugh in the process

How did Sayyidna Muhamad know that fact 1500 years ago?

Right... you can't answer

I thought so



I repeat when it comes to the Quran... None could have engineered the Quran but Allah



Shaloooooom :)



Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2016, 12:22:50 pm »
"NOW - IS THIS MIND BLOWING OR WHAT?"
No, not mind blowing.

"This Hadeeth has been proven by NON MUSLIM SCIENTISTS and BIOLOGISTS."
No, the Hadith asserts a pathogen on 1 wing and and antidote on the other wing.  All the above fails to support the alternate wing prediction.

No, it is not mind blowing that medicines are made from extracts of living things.  That's what penicillin, aspirin, and many other drugs are.

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #80 on: January 16, 2016, 12:44:28 pm »
Brother Osama asserts that 36:38 is some kind of miracle.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

In fact it is plainly obvious.  Just look up in the sky during the day!  “The sun runs a course for a time to a fixed resting place.”
How can any reasonable person consider that to somehow be a miracle?  That is just a crude and erroneous description of the obvious.
The sun does not rest, it just seems to at sunset.
The sunset point is not fixed, rather it changes each day.
The sun was thought to orbit the Earth in those days, which is a far simpler explanation for the words than an asserted miracle of predicted galactic orbit.

Here is 36:38
Chapter (36) sūrat yā sīn
Sahih International: And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.
Pickthall: And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
Yusuf Ali: And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.
Shakir: And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.
Muhammad Sarwar: how the sun moves in its orbit and this is the decree of the Majestic and All-knowing God;
Mohsin Khan: And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.
Arberry: And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing.

Brother Osama cites these verses
32:5, 34:2, 57:4, 70:3-4

Here is 32:5
Chapter (32) sūrat l-sajdah (The Prostration)
Sahih International: He arranges [each] matter from the heaven to the earth; then it will ascend to Him in a Day, the extent of which is a thousand years of those which you count.
Pickthall: He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon.
Yusuf Ali: He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning.
Shakir: He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count.
Muhammad Sarwar: He sends the regulation of the affair from the heavens to the earth, then on the day which is equal to one thousand years of yours, it will ascend to Him.
Mohsin Khan: He arranges (every) affair from the heavens to the earth, then it (affair) will go up to Him, in one Day, the space whereof is a thousand years of your reckoning (i.e. reckoning of our present world's time).
Arberry: He directs the affair from heaven to earth, then it goes up to Him in one day, whose measure is a thousand years of your counting.

Here is 34:2
Chapter (34) sūrat saba (Sheba)
Sahih International: He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what ascends therein. And He is the Merciful, the Forgiving.
Pickthall: He knoweth that which goeth into the earth and that which cometh forth from it, and that descendeth from the heaven and that which ascendeth into it. He is the Merciful, the Forgiving.
Yusuf Ali: He knows all that goes into the earth, and all that comes out thereof; all that comes down from the sky and all that ascends thereto and He is the Most Merciful, the Oft-Forgiving.
Shakir: He knows that which goes down into the earth and that which comes out of it, and that which comes down from the heaven and that which goes up to it; and He is the Merciful, the Forgiving.
Muhammad Sarwar: He knows all that enters the earth, all that comes out of it, all that descends from the sky and all that ascends to it. He is All-merciful and All-forgiving.
Mohsin Khan: He knows that which goes into the earth and that which comes forth from it, and that which descend from the heaven and that which ascends to it. And He is the Most Merciful, the OftForgiving.
Arberry: He knows what penetrates into the earth, and what comes forth from it, what comes down from heaven, and what goes up to it; He is the All-compassionate, the All-forgiving.

Here is 57:4
Chapter (57) sūrat l-ḥadīd (The Iron)
Sahih International: It is He who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne. He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what ascends therein; and He is with you wherever you are. And Allah , of what you do, is Seeing.
Pickthall: He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days; then He mounted the Throne. He knoweth all that entereth the earth and all that emergeth therefrom and all that cometh down from the sky and all that ascendeth therein; and He is with you wheresoever ye may be. And Allah is Seer of what ye do.
Yusuf Ali: He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days, and is moreover firmly established on the Throne (of Authority). He knows what enters within the earth and what comes forth out of it, what comes down from heaven and what mounts up to it. And He is with you wheresoever ye may be. And Allah sees well all that ye do.
Shakir: He it is who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firm in power; He knows that which goes deep down into the earth and that which comes forth out of it, and that which comes down from the heaven and that which goes up into it, and He is with you wherever you are; and Allah sees what you do.
Muhammad Sarwar: It is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then established His Dominion over the Throne. He knows whatever enters into the earth, what comes out of it, what descends from the sky, and what ascends to it. He is with you wherever you may be and He is Well Aware of what you do.
Mohsin Khan: He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then Istawa (rose over) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). He knows what goes into the earth and what comes forth from it, what descends from the heaven and what ascends thereto. And He is with you (by His Knowledge) wheresoever you may be. And Allah is the All-Seer of what you do.
Arberry: It is He that created the heavens and the earth in six days then seated Himself upon the Throne. He knows what penetrates into the earth, and what comes forth from it, -- what comes down from heaven, and what goes up unto it. He is with you wherever you are; and God sees the things you do.

Here is 70:3
Chapter (70) sūrat l-maʿārij (The Ways of Ascent)
Sahih International: [It is] from Allah , owner of the ways of ascent.
Pickthall: From Allah, Lord of the Ascending Stairways
Yusuf Ali: (A Penalty) from Allah, Lord of the Ways of Ascent.
Shakir: From Allah, the Lord of the ways of Ascent.
Muhammad Sarwar: No one can defend him against God, the Lord of the exalted positions.
Mohsin Khan: From Allah, the Lord of the ways of ascent.
Arberry: from God, the Lord of the Stairways.

Here is 70:4
Chapter (70) sūrat l-maʿārij (The Ways of Ascent)
Sahih International: The angels and the Spirit will ascend to Him during a Day the extent of which is fifty thousand years.
Pickthall: (Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years.
Yusuf Ali: The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years:
Shakir: To Him ascend the angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.
Muhammad Sarwar: On that Day (of Judgment), long as fifty thousand years, the angels and the Spirit will ascend to Him.
Mohsin Khan: The angels and the Ruh [Jibrael (Gabriel)] ascend to Him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years,
Arberry: To Him the angels and the Spirit mount up, in a day whereof the measure is fifty thousand years.


Brothers, where is the scientific miracle in all that?

Those verses are just meandering words asserting thrones and angels and spirits and stairways.  Not a bit of “scientific miracle” in any of it.

A day is either a day, or 1000 years, or 50,000 years.  So, according to the Qur’an, the universe and the Earth was created in either 6 days, 6000 years, or 300,000 years.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong, science tells us.

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an.



Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #81 on: January 16, 2016, 04:57:40 pm »
Brother Osama asserts that 36:38 is some kind of miracle.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

In fact it is plainly obvious.  Just look up in the sky during the day!  “The sun runs a course for a time to a fixed resting place.”
How can any reasonable person consider that to somehow be a miracle?  That is just a crude and erroneous description of the obvious.
The sun does not rest, it just seems to at sunset.
The sunset point is not fixed, rather it changes each day.
The sun was thought to orbit the Earth in those days, which is a far simpler explanation for the words than an asserted miracle of predicted galactic orbit.

Brothers, where is the scientific miracle in all that?

Those verses are just meandering words asserting thrones and angels and spirits and stairways.  Not a bit of “scientific miracle” in any of it.

A day is either a day, or 1000 years, or 50,000 years.  So, according to the Qur’an, the universe and the Earth was created in either 6 days, 6000 years, or 300,000 years.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong, science tells us.

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an.


Quote
“The sun runs a course for a time to a fixed resting place.”
How can any reasonable person consider that to somehow be a miracle?  That is just a crude and erroneous description of the obvious.
The sun does not rest, it just seems to at sunset.
The sunset point is not fixed, rather it changes each day.
The sun was thought to orbit the Earth in those days, which is a far simpler explanation for the words than an asserted miracle of predicted galactic orbit.

this only shows how weak your understanding of science and quran is

quran says that sun moves in space, that is a scientific fact, (remeber quran never say it moves around the earth)

look what science say about it

Sun's orbit around milky way galaxy in the Quran
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faJtnF3W8mc
see here how sun moves in space

Quote
The sun does not rest,

what does it mean sun resting place



THE SUN WILL EXPIRE AFTER SOME TIME

And the sun runs to a fixed resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. (Surah Ya Sin, 38)

The Sun has been emitting heat for around 5 billion years as a result of the constant chemical reactions taking place on its surface. At a moment determined by Allah in the future, these reactions will eventually come to an end, and the Sun will lose all its energy and finally go out. In that context, the above verse may be a reference to the Sun’s energy one day coming to an end. (Allah knows the truth.)

The Arabic word "mustaqarrin" in the verse refers to a particular place or time. The word “tajree,” translated as “runs,” bears such meanings as “to move, to act swiftly, to move about, to flow.” It appears from the meanings of the words that the Sun will continue in its course in time and space, but that this motion will continue until a specific, predetermined time.  The verse " When the Sun is compacted in blackness " (Surat at-Takwir, 1) which appears in descriptions of Doomsday, tells us that such a time will be coming. The specific timing is known only to Allah.

The Arabic word "taqdeeru," translated as “decree” in the verse, includes such meanings as “to appoint, to determine the destiny of something, to measure.” By this expression in verse 38 of Surah Ya Sin we are told that the life span of the Sun is limited to a specific period, one ordained by Allah. Other verses of the Qur’an on the subject read:

Allah is He Who raised up the heavens without any support – you can see that – and then established Himself firmly on the Throne. He made the Sun and Moon subservient, each running for a specified term. He directs the whole affair. He makes the Signs clear so that hopefully you will be certain about the meeting with your Lord. (Surat ar- Ra‘d, 2)

He makes night merge into day and day merge into night, and He has made the Sun and Moon subservient, each one running until a specified time. That is Allah, your Lord. The Kingdom is His. Those you call on besides Him have no power over even the smallest speck. (Surah Fatir, 13)

He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient, each one running for a specified term. Is He not indeed the Almighty, the Endlessly Forgiving? (Surah az-Zumar, 5)

The use of the word "musamman" in the above verses shows that the life span of the Sun will run for a “specified term.” Scientific analysis regarding the end of the Sun describes it as each second, 4 million tons of matter are converted into energy 1 , and says that the Sun will die when that fuel has all been consumed. 2 The heat and light emitted from the Sun is the energy released as matter is consumed as hydrogen nuclei turn into helium in the nuclear fusion process. The Sun’s energy, and therefore its life, will thus come to an end once this fuel has been used up. (Allah knows the truth.) A report titled “The Death of the Sun” by the BBC News Science Department says:

...The Sun will gradually die. As a star's core crashes inwards, it eventually becomes hot enough to ignite another of its constituent atoms, helium. Helium atoms fuse together to form carbon. When the helium supply runs out, the centre collapses again and the atmosphere inflates. The Sun isn't massive enough to fully re-ignite its core for a third time. So it goes on expanding, shedding its atmosphere in a series of bursts... The dying core eventually forms a white dwarf - a spherical diamond the size of the Earth, made of carbon and oxygen. From this point on the Sun will gradually fade away, becoming dimmer and dimmer until its light is finally snuffed out. 3

A documentary, also called “The Death of the Sun,” broadcast by National Geographic TV, provides the following description:

It generates heat and sustains life on our planet. But like humans, the sun has a limited lifespan. As our star ages, it will become hotter and expand, evaporating all of our oceans and killing all life on planet Earth... The sun will get hotter as it ages and burns fuel faster. Temperatures will increase, eventually wiping out animal life, evaporating our oceans and killing all plant life... the sun will swell and become a red giant star, swallowing up the nearest planets. Its gravitational pull will lessen and perhaps allow Earth to escape. By the end, it will shrink into a white dwarf star, emitting a week glow... 4

Scientists have only recently unravelled the structure of the Sun and discovered what goes on inside it. Before that, nobody knew how the Sun obtained its energy or how it emitted heat and light. The way that such a giant mass of energy would one day consume all its energy and expire was revealed 1,400 years ago in the Qur’an shows the presence of a sublime knowledge. That knowledge belongs to our Lord, Whose knowledge enfolds all things. Another verse of the Qur’an reveals:

"... My Lord encompasses all things in His knowledge so will you not pay heed?” (Surat Al-An‘am, 80)

1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun

2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun

3 http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/stars/death/index.shtml

4 "Death of the Sun", National Geographic Channel, 20 March 2006, director: Rabinder Minhas,part no. 25, season 3.



Quote
A day is either a day, or 1000 years, or 50,000 years.  So, according to the Qur’an, the universe and the Earth was created in either 6 days, 6000 years, or 300,000 years.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong, science tells us.

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an.

no, yewm can mean day 24h, and it can also mean a period wich is longer, much longer than our day.

to God is 1 day as our 1000 years

on judgment day, that day will be 50 000 years long. and by the way, do you knkow any thing about theory of relativity, where time is relevative, it is not fixed.

universe and earth was created in 6 periods not our (24h) days

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #82 on: January 16, 2016, 05:30:49 pm »
“quran says that sun moves in space”
Where?  What is the chapter and verse?

“raised up the heavens without any support – you can see that”
Yes, just go outside at night, there is nothing apparently holding up the “heavens”.  How obvious.  How is that supposed to be some kind of scientific miracle?

“He directs the whole affair.”
There is nothing scientific about that, it is a mere assertion of divine powers, just like thousands of other assertions made by all the other imagined gods.

"... My Lord encompasses all things in His knowledge so will you not pay heed?”
Again, there is nothing scientific about that, it is a mere assertion of divine powers.

“no, yewm can mean day 24h, and it can also mean a period wich is longer, much longer than our day.
to God is 1 day as our 1000 years
on judgment day, that day will be 50 000 years long. and by the way, do you knkow any thing about theory of relativity, where time is relevative, it is not fixed.
universe and earth was created in 6 periods not our (24h) days”
Right, 1 Allah day is 1000 Earth years.
6 Allah days is 6000 Earth years.
That makes the Qur’an scientifically false when it says creation was accomplished in 6 days, or 6000 years, or even if you call it 300,000 years.
1 day, 6000 years, 300,000 years are all scientifically false.
The Qur’an is scientifically false on this point.

Now, if you want to say a “period” an undetermined length of time then that is no miracle.

So is the Qur’an scientifically mistaken or simply lacking in any scientific miracles?

Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #83 on: January 16, 2016, 05:31:34 pm »
Question to arabic speakers

what does this two words mean

fromverse
76:28
نَحْنُ خَلَقْنَاهُمْ وَشَدَدْنَا أَسْرَهُمْ ۖ وَإِذَا شِئْنَا بَدَّلْنَا أَمْثَالَهُمْ تَبْدِيلًاِ
washadadna asrahum

does it mean
 We strengthened their form

some translate it like this


We created them and fixed their bones and joints;

We created them and made their joints strong,

We created them and made their joints firm,

We created them, and We strengthened their joints;

We created them and strengthened their joints;

Why do they translate joints, is asrahum (their joints) or ???

why do i ask this beacuse

from the begining of the Chapter Insan (Human)

to the word (We strengthened their joints / We trengthened their form) there is 206 words

and we know today that humans have 206 bones in their body

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bones_of_the_human_skeleton
The skeleton of an adult human consists of 206 bones. It is composed of 270 bones at birth, which decreases to 206 bones by adulthood after some bones have fused together

The 206 Bones of the Human Body
http://www.cs.rpi.edu/~kleine/anatomy/bones.html

http://www.ivyroses.com/HumanBody/Skeletal/how-many-bones-in-the-human-body.php
There are 206 named bones a normal, complete, adult human skeleton.

evidence

Hal ata AAala alinsani heenun mina alddahri lam yakun shayan mathkooran
Inna khalaqna alinsana min nutfatin amshajin nabtaleehi fajaAAalnahu sameeAAan baseeran
Inna hadaynahu alssabeela imma shakiran waimma kafooran
Inna aAAtadna lilkafireena salasila waaghlalan wasaAAeeran
Inna alabrara yashraboona min kasin kana mizajuha kafooran
AAaynan yashrabu biha AAibadu Allahi yufajjiroonaha tafjeeran
Yoofoona bialnnathri wayakhafoona yawman kana sharruhu mustateeran
WayutAAimona alttaAAama AAala hubbihi miskeenan wayateeman waaseeran
Innama nutAAimukum liwajhi Allahi la nureedu minkum jazaan wala shukooran
Inna nakhafu min rabbina yawman AAaboosan qamtareeran
Fawaqahumu Allahu sharra thalika alyawmi walaqqahum nadratan wasurooran
Wajazahum bima sabaroo jannatan wahareeran
Muttakieena feeha AAala alaraiki la yarawna feeha shamsan wala zamhareeran
Wadaniyatan AAalayhim thilaluha wathullilat qutoofuha tathleelan
Wayutafu AAalayhim bianiyatin min fiddatin waakwabin kanat qawareera
Qawareera min fiddatin qaddarooha taqdeeran
Wayusqawna feeha kasan kana mizajuha zanjabeelan
AAaynan feeha tusamma salsabeelan
Wayatoofu AAalayhim wildanun mukhalladoona itha raaytahum hasibtahum luluan manthooran
Waitha raayta thamma raayta naAAeeman wamulkan kabeeran
AAaliyahum thiyabu sundusin khudrun waistabraqun wahulloo asawira min fiddatin wasaqahum rabbuhum sharaban tahooran
Inna hatha kana lakum jazaan wakana saAAyukum mashkooran
Inna nahnu nazzalna AAalayka alqurana tanzeelan
Faisbir lihukmi rabbika wala tutiAA minhum athiman aw kafooran
Waothkuri isma rabbika bukratan waaseelan
Wamina allayli faosjud lahu wasabbihhu laylan taweelan
Inna haolai yuhibboona alAAajilata wayatharoona waraahum yawman thaqeelan
Nahnu khalaqnahum


copy this and you will get 206 words to the word washadadna (we strengthened)

answer

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #84 on: January 16, 2016, 07:31:15 pm »
We created man from an extract of clay.  Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed.  Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance).. (Quran, 23:12-14)

“We created man from an extract of clay. “
No, man did not come from clay.  Science tells us man evolved from lower primates.

“We made him as a drop”
A drop of what, semen?  How obvious.  It was well known that semen is necessary to reproduction in humans.

“in a place of settlement”
Semen can’t go too far once it is inside a vagina, now can it?  Actually it doesn’t settle, it mixes with the woman’s own fluids.

“We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot),”
Obviously a crude description of the products of miscarriage.  When a woman has an miscarriage it looks vaguly like a leech or a blood clot.  Of course it is neither, so the verse is mistaken, but it is crudely description of the products of miscarriage.  The cord makes a baby a "suspended thing", how obvious.

“We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)”
Again the words are factually incorrect, we do not come from a chewed substance.  But this is just another crude description of the products of miscarriage.

The Qur’an offers only obvious observations, crude descriptions available to 7th century man, or outright errors.

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an


Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #85 on: January 16, 2016, 11:12:51 pm »
I apologise beforehand for any unintentional mistakes that I may make in the following posts.

@Brother Osama,
I appreciate the link, it provided me with possible refutations to the claims of some Islam critics.

@StardustyPsyche,
I stayed away from commenting because I don’t believe there is much I can do to convince you.

-   “… I did not notice you make any specific claims of a scientific miracle in the Qur'an.”

Merriam-Webster Dictionary: “An extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment”
Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/miracle

I belong to the group of Muslims who believe that the primary “miraculous” thing about the Qur’an, in the context of Science, is that modern science sustains the claims made in the Qur’an and does not contradict them. From what I know, no ancient text does that. The individual “scientific” claims are of a secondary nature because the Qur’an was never claimed to be a book of Science but rather a book of “signs”. For some people they are enough to validate Islam and for others, at the very least, they serve as points of interest or curiosity to make people perform deeper research into the religion.

-   “What is a scientific miracle in an ancient text?
First let me say what it is not:
A statement that could have been a simple observation available at that time…”

Who is to say what was a “simple observation” and what wasn’t? This is an especially subjective requirement. If it cannot be proven or disproven that a particular statement was a “simple observation”, the next step is to determine how likely it would’ve been for a person to make that “simple observation”. The discussion becomes a matter of probabilities.
As I mentioned before, all life created from water is not a simple observation. The observation that species known to 7th century humans, required water to survive does not naturally lead to the claim that all life is created from water.

-   “… A vague statement that is open to multiple interpretations as may be conveniently fit into facts found out later, as is commonly a tactic used by so called psychics…”
All living things are created from water, as I mentioned before, this is not a vague statement. From what I understand, probably the only two things it can mean is that either all living things have water as a constituent of their physical bodies or in some distant past water, probably along with some other constituents, was the starting point of life. The former point is proved by the existence of water in all living cells, the later possibility is something, if I understand correctly, the theory of evolution indirectly states (I’m among those Muslims who don’t see Islamic doctrine to be contradicting evolution, at-least not unequivocally).

Just in case, you still try to argue that this particular claim is vague, you will be committing the Special Pleading fallacy because you had no problem with its “vagueness” when you were trying to push it as a scientific mistake in the Qur’an. In other words, it would mean that the Qur’an is only vague when it confirms Science but not when it appears to contradict it.

-   “… Statements that are incorrect in their most direct meaning and can at most be considered possible if a very broad interpretation is used…”
What exactly is the “most direct meaning”? Again a very subjective requirement. If Islamic traditions are cherry-picked then I’m sure hundreds of “contradictions” can be found. This is not a fault with the Qur’an but with the subjective reasoning of the people trying to interpret it with their recognized or unrecognized biases.
As with the water example, the “most direct meaning” for some people is indeed a scientific mistake but for students of critical reasoning and logical arguments fallacies, it isn’t.

-   “… A statement written as a prediction but actually addressing events prior the writing of the earliest extant copy of the alleged prediction.”
This requirement has more to do with subjectivity in the present context than to being an objective requirement in all situations. The non-existence of the first copies of the Qur’an today does not mean that the Qur’an simply didn’t exist in that time. For example, if two editions of a book come out with a difference of a decade and after some time all the first editions are lost or destroyed and only the second edition remains in circulation it would be a fallacious argument to claim that the first edition never existed or that the author’s ideas belonged to the time of the second edition and not the first.

One has to have extensive knowledge on this issue before he/she can claim that the Qur’an came after the predicted events. Numerous arguments have been made in support of the concept of preservation of the Qur’an. A huge amount of literature has been penned down regarding it, so I won’t get into that. I will just quote Assistant Professor Joseph E. B. Lumbard on this:

Quote
…For the Sana’a manuscripts, it reveals occasional variations in the ordering of the sūrahs (or chapters) of the Quran, and slight variations in reading that correspond to the variations that had been preserved in the extensive Islamic material detailing variant readings of the Quran. But all of these variations had already been and recorded in the Islamic historiographical tradition. In other words, analysis of the “under text” confirms the accuracy of early Islamic historiography.
This changes the field of Quranic Studies because it provides empirical support for the accuracy of the traditional Islamic accounts that many western scholars have previously claimed to be anachronistic and unreliable, such as the existence of variant manuscripts of the Quran before the collation of the text in 650. Furthermore, statistical analysis of the variants within the earliest manuscripts suggests that the final version that came to be the accepted text of the Quran “is overall a better reproduction of the common source.” Even minor textual variations that were reported by early Islamic scholars and transmitted in the Quranic commentary tradition find substantiation in the “under text” of the earliest manuscripts of the Quran.
In addition, recent studies have demonstrated that the earliest Islamic literature on variant readings of the Quran is for the most part reliable and that the historicity of the received data is, as Michael Cook of Princeton University observes, “a testimony to the continuing accuracy of the transmission of the variants.” Such findings correspond with the most recent anthropological studies that confirm the historical reliability of oral transmission traditions.”
Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-e-b-lumbard/new-light-on-the-history-_b_7864930.html

When you later on forwarded the idea that the Qur’an might not have been preserved, I was kind of astonished that, the reasoning you gave for this assertion is that this is a circular reasoning. Seriously? Do you actually believe that the only reason –  billions of Muslims throughout the centuries have, and still do, believe in the preservation of the Qur’an –  is just because the Qur’an says so?
As I said above, a huge amount of literature and scholarly work has been done on this, go through that before flat out rejecting things.

-   “… A numerological association that could have been intentionally constructed by human beings deeply dedicated to such a task.”

As I mentioned before, pretty much any numerical association that can be discovered can be claimed to have been intentionally inserted by humans, there isn’t much that can be done about that. In such cases, it becomes a matter of how likely such a happening was, in which case a higher level of understanding of surrounding factors is important. The ones I’ve mentioned already in addition to several others, in my opinion point towards these associations being: “An extremely outstanding or unusual event”.

Additionally, as Brother Osama pointed out the present Qur’anic text that has been used to calculate these numerical associations didn’t exist fourteen centuries ago. How could’ve Prophet Muhammad been able to insert sensitive numerical associations, like the ones based on the number of letters, in a text that was going to evolve over the centuries.

An example regarding this evolution of written text is in the obsolete spelling of the English word “sonne” for either “son” or “sun”.
Source: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sonne
As you can see the pronunciation and the meaning of the word remained the same but the spelling or the number of characters in the word changed. If I remember one particular article correctly, a similar evolution was also observed for the Arabic written text. The worst-case theory is that this is just a co-incidence which in-turn is contradicted by the fact of huge quantities of these associations. I personally haven’t compared the different written scripts so I can’t discuss how likely or unlikely is the “950 letters” association.

-   “Here are a few examples invented for the purposes of illustration:
Gabriel told me today to recite for all the world to hear that there are 92 fundamental atoms to be discovered on this Earth, and 5 of them are essential to the construction of a structure within our bodies too small for us to see, yet it contains the instructions needed to construct each of us.”

First of all, from what I’ve read and if I understand you correctly, there are definitely more than 92 fundamental (which I’m assuming means naturally occurring) elements on Earth. Regarding your point, whatever the number God would have told the Prophet it would’ve remained unprovable until all material from all over the world had been scientifically analysed which if I’m not mistaken is pretty much impossible at-least up till now. Also, again the argument could’ve been made on what is the definition of “essential” in the above paragraph. Does it include only elements that contribute directly, or are indirectly contributing substances also incorporated? Additionally, as we know that because of fission through the process of “Nuclear transmutation” atoms of one type can change to a different type, it can be argued that technically, in essence a lesser number of elements or even just one is “essential” for this purpose.
Furthermore, it can also be easily claimed that because all animals and plants come from previous animals and plants respectively, it was, what was that term you used, “a simple observation available at that time”.

-   “Gabriel told me to tell you folks that diseases such as smallpox and the common cold are caused, not by demons, but by tiny creatures that are too small for us to see.  When these tiny unseen creatures invade our bodies we become sick.”

First of all there is enough evidence to show that Prophet Muhammad didn’t believe diseases were caused by demons and neither did, at-least the majority of, his companions.
Abu Hurayrah narrates that The Prophet pbuh said:
“There is no disease that Allah has created, except that He also has created its remedy.”
Bukhari 7.582
Usamah ibn Shuraik narrated:
“… ‘O Allah’s Messenger! Should we seek medical treatment for our illnesses?’ He replied: ‘Yes, you should seek medical treatment, because Allah, the Exalted, has let no disease exist without providing for its cure, except for one ailment, namely, old age’.”
Tirmidhi
Source: http://www.fiqh.org/2009/04/every-illness-has-a-cure-the-islamic-perspective/

And it is interesting that you talked about smallpox because Muhammad ibn Zakariya ar-Razi (Rhazes) a Persian scientist’s “work on smallpox and measles was one of the first scientific treatments of infectious diseases.”
Source: http://www.infoplease.com/cig/dangerous-diseases-epidemics/smallpox-12000-years-terror.html

Moving on to your point, once again the argument of “a simple observation available at that time” can be made. A tapeworm in a human can range in length from 1/250 of an inch (.0063 cm) to an incredible 50 feet (15.23 meters).
Source: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/27/the_odd_body_tapeworm/

Furthermore, their eggs also find their way out of the bodies of animals through excretions. So, all a person had to do was examine the insides of some animal or their excretion to be able to deduce that tiny organisms can invade our bodies and make us sick. And using the incorrect inference fallacy, your “scientific miracle” would actually be a mistake because “when these tiny unseen creatures invade our bodies” it is not necessary for us to get sick. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don’t.

-   “Gabriel told me to say to everybody that the points of light in the night sky are just like our sun, but a thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand paces distant, except the wandering lights that shine with a steady light, which are actually worlds like our own Earth.  All these worlds and our earth move around the sun in orbits with the fundamental shape of a curve that is expressed as x divided by a times x divided by a plus y divided by b times y divided by b all to equal one.”

Once again, I can claim things faraway look smaller and it would’ve been “a simple observation available at that time” to claim that stars are faraway “suns”. That there is a difference between the “twinkling” and “non-twinkling” dots in the night sky was also “a simple observation available at that time”.

“Planets, on the other hand, are observed to move in very complicated paths with respect to the background stars, sometimes even appearing to go "against the grain" and reverse their directions. Therefore, they are easily distinguishable from stars if you look at the sky night after night.
There are other observational differences between planets and stars too, by the way -- such as the fact that planets almost never twinkle.”
Source: http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/physics/58-our-solar-system/planets-and-dwarf-planets/planet-watching/255-what-is-the-observational-difference-between-a-star-and-a-planet-beginner

Brother Osama believes that the Qur’an does talk about the curved path of heavenly bodies in his article:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm

-   “Gabriel gave me another message for you folks that energy equals mass times the speed of light times the speed of light.  I have no idea what that means but he said one day humanity will understand it and use it to build weapons of terrible destructive power.”

First of all God doesn’t have to include any scientific prediction in the Qur’an, as I mentioned before it is never claimed that the Qur’an is a book of Science. Besides even if this was included there would’ve still been lots of people who wouldn’t have believed.
Coming back to your point, this contradicts your own understanding of the Qur’an when you wrote “…the notion that Allah was presumably speaking eternal truths for all men of all times to come”. If people had absolutely no idea of what was being talked about wouldn’t that go against the concept of “for all men of all times”?

-   “As for what convinced me there is no god I would like to emphasize your well-chosen words, that I am convinced.  I do not make the strong claim of being able to absolutely prove there is no god, since I am unable to prove the universal negative… I was 12 and in the many years since I have continually reexamined my adolescent self-realization of the absence of any god…”

Atheism:
Merriam-Webster Dictionary: “A disbelief in the existence of deity” or “The doctrine that there is no deity”
Oxford Dictionary: “A person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods” or “A person who believes that God does not exist”
Sources:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/atheist
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/learner/atheist

Agnostic:
Merriam-Webster Dictionary: “A person who does not have a definite belief about whether God exists or not.”

Therefore, if you cannot prove that there is no God then, strictly speaking, logic dictates, if I’ve got my definitions correct, that you define yourself as more of an agnostic than an “atheist”.

-   “I am not sure if As'salamu Alaikum is the correct form as a valediction so I will close in my own vernacular…”
"Assalamu alaikum" means "Peace be with you". It is an Arabic phrase, from what I understand, there is nothing wrong in its use by non-Muslims.

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #86 on: January 16, 2016, 11:18:16 pm »
@StardustyPsyche,

On the matter of barrier between waters, according to my understanding of the topic which can be faulty and judging by the translation of the verse, the Qur’an is just claiming the presence of a barrier not the idea that the barrier exists forever. In fact, as one author states the “mixing together” is also included in the text,'

“In the Arabic text the word barzakh means a barrier or a partition. This barrier is not a physical partition. The Arabic word maraja [used in the verses in question] literally means 'they both meet and mix with each other'. Early commentators of the Qur'an were unable to explain the two opposite meanings for the two bodies of water, i.e. they meet and mix, and at the same time, there is a barrier between them. ”
Source: http://sunnahonline.com/library/the-majestic-quran/430-quran-and-modern-science-compatible-or-incompatible-the#h7-1-i-barrier-between-sweet-and-salt-waters

One Arabic dictionary translates the word “maraja” as “be jumbled”.
Source: http://www.almaany.com/en/dict/ar-en/مرج/

I don’t know Arabic so I can’t say for sure but if the above is true then this “mistake” would be another case of incorrect inference fallacy.
Several different types of layers exist inside bodies of water which act as “barriers”  to the “flow” of heat, certain chemicals, animals and equalizing salinities or densities.

Quote
The region of rapid density change is known as the pycnocline, and it acts as a barrier to vertical water circulation; thus it also affects the vertical distribution of certain chemicals which play a role in the biology of the seas. The sharp gradients in temperature and density also may act as a restriction to vertical movements of animals.
Pycnoclines become unstable when their Richardson number drops below 0.25. (…)This can produce Kelvin-Helmholtz instability, resulting in a turbulence which leads to mixing.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pycnocline

Therefore, when Pycnocline layer is stable, it acts as a barrier obstructing mixing of layers and when it is unstable mixing happens. From what I understand, a similar case exists for halocline layers too.

Quote
The opposing fresh and saltwater streams sometimes flow smoothly, one above the other. But when the velocity difference reaches a certain threshold, vigorous turbulence results, and the salt and fresh water are mixed. Tidal currents, which act independently of estuarine circulation, also add to the turbulence, mixing the salt and fresh waters to produce brackish water in the estuary.
Source: http://www.whoi.edu/oceanus/feature/where-the-rivers-meet-the-sea

As an additional point, because you have pushed the idea that knowledge detailed in the Qur’an was simple observation during that time, then, assuming that assertion is true, it is also highly probable that Prophet Muhammad would have known that the barrier isn’t permanent because if it were the case it stands to reason that for a 7th century man it would’ve meant that the fresh water would start flowing back onto land because it had already filled the available space “behind” the “barrier”. I don’t know much history in this context, but it is highly unlikely that any “seafaring trading contact” in those times would’ve believed that there was any barrier between the waters temporary or otherwise.

-   “The Greeks measured the diameter of the spherical Earth, no miracle…”
Now, you just need to show that the tribesman of 7th century Arabia knew about it. Aside from many other problems, if I’m not mistaken, Arabian peninsula had no libraries. Evidence shows that this became a generally accepted fact in the world much later in time. Even if the unlearned Prophet happened to come across such theories, why would he believe such stories which, if I’m not mistaken, couldn’t be unequivocally proven at that time?

-   “Suspended in Space. Where else would it [Earth] be?...”
Umm, maybe on air. You know the theory that was forwarded by Anaxagoras, the person used by Islam critics as the one who first explained that the moon shines due to reflected light from the sun.

-   “…it is just flat out wrong that the heavens and the Earth were made in 6 days.  Obviously, this is a Genesis retelling and Genesis gets it wrong wrong wrong.”
This point’s explanation was the very first argument I made. I don’t know why did you feel the need to make the same assertion again. Later, Brother Dawud also had to explain the same thing when you made this argument a third time.

On the matter of Hamza Tzortzis’s article:

Unless I missed it, one extremely important thing that Hamza Tzortzis failed to mention about knowledge already available, is that a lot of that was in the form of theories instead of provable empirical facts. Even if we believe that the Prophet had access to all the world’s books (and that he could read them too), why is that somehow for some unknown reason he was able to differentiate wrong theories from the right ones? The fact that this happened falls under: “An extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment”.

For example, in the case of Anaxagoras:

Quote
“Anaxagoras brought philosophy and the spirit of scientific inquiry from Ionia to Athens. His observations of the celestial bodies and the fall of meteorites led him to form new theories of the universal order. He attempted to give a scientific account of eclipses, meteors, rainbows, and the sun, which he described as a mass of blazing metal, larger than the Peloponnese. He was the first to explain that the moon shines due to reflected light from the sun. He also said that the moon had mountains and believed that it was inhabited. The heavenly bodies, he asserted, were masses of stone torn from the earth and ignited by rapid rotation. He explained that, though both sun and the stars were fiery stones, we do not feel the heat of the stars because of their enormous distance from earth. He thought that the earth is flat and floats supported by 'strong' air under it and disturbances in this air sometimes causes earthquakes.”
Cited source: Burnet J. (1892) Early Greek Philosophy A. & C. Black, London
Source: http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/7890/who-discovered-first-that-the-moon-does-not-have-its-own-light

Similar arguments can easily be made for other “known” facts.

-   “… No, science tells us that humans evolved from lower primates.”
That same theory, also pushes forward the idea that all species are descended from a single specie which, from what I understand, started out from water. You didn’t have any problem in disbelieving in that when Qur’an said it. Additionally, logic also tells us that if there was indeed a God, then it follows naturally that He would have the power to insert humanity directly while keeping everything else along the evolutionary line intact.

-   “Now, brother Dawud, you seek to add additional constraints to this mere trick of numerological construction.  In American parlance we call that ‘moving the goalposts’.”
Although, I personally believe that it would’ve been better if Brother Dawud had described all the requirements and constraints that he believes are necessary at the beginning, however this does not constitute “moving the goalposts” because these requirements aren’t something new but they have existed for fourteen centuries. Also, Muslims can’t even know how many of these requirements actually are, because before a few decades ago a lot of them weren’t known and there is no certainty about how many there are, still left to be discovered.

-   “You wish to bring up that the Qur'an also says that man was made from mud.  That is also scientifically false.  Science tells us that human beings evolved from lower primates, not mud.”

When water is being talked about, you have no problem in using the individual elements of water apparently because it points towards an alleged mistake in the Qur’an but when “mud” is being talked about, no consideration for the individual elements of mud. Why the inconsistency? Furthermore, although I have doubts for this part of the evolutionary theory, nevertheless why can’t human beings be evolved from primates and made from the constituents of mud at the same time?

Regarding the Golden Ratio:

As,  you have mentioned your successes in maths and technical fields, I find it interesting that you in your arguments, didn’t consider the fact that the golden ratio is an irrational number and therefore, in effect is impossible to be denoted in the form of a fraction, or to put it more accurately, in the form of a fraction where both the numerator and denominator are real numbers. In other words no matter which real numbers had been used there would have been an inescapable “approximation” to be made.

Now, the author of the Qur’an could have used the exact formula which involves the square root of 5, for all we know it could be present in the Qur’an but the main problem which would arise from such a relationship shall be that hardly anyone would believe in it. The huge quantities of interesting numerical associations that have been found just by four mathematical operations, –  namely: addition, subtraction, multiplication and division – are already difficult enough to believe for the sceptics, using another mathematical operation would have strengthened the allegation of “trying too hard to find associations that aren’t there”. The precision up to four digits are more than enough for a person to consider this as a sign from the author.

From what I understand, you didn’t assert the idea that the golden ration was inserted by humans rather pushed the idea that it’s just a co-incidence; in which case you apparently started out by categorically alleging that all numerical associations are manmade and when one is presented to you that doesn’t appear to be manmade, at-least more convincingly than others, you make the claim that it is a co-incidence. I apologise if I’m mistaken, but I think this falls under the criterion of “shifting the goalposts”.

-   “I appreciate your kind words.  I have heard much worse then those…”
If you have commented on the pages of people like Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller, I don’t doubt that.

-   “But, I suspect you are only partly expressing this out of concern for me.  I think it likely your primary goal is to maintain your own integrity and the integrity of a community you feel a part of.”
It has more to do with my idealistic desire to see Muslims following the spirit of Islam and the fact that I have also experienced much worse during my time on one particular non-Muslim, or rather anti-Islam, Facebook page.

-   “There was much time to engineer the Qur'an before the words were written on our earliest surviving example.”
Because of the inherent uncertainty involved in the process of carbon dating, I don’t think it will ever be possible, as far as the presently used techniques are concerned, to empirically prove absolutely that a particular Qur’an manuscript is from the Prophet’s time. The best that can be done is to have a probable range of years, which was done for the “Birmingham M 1572” manuscript.
Quote
“For the earliest extant manuscript [of the Qur’an] to have undergone extensive analysis, radiocarbon dating gives "a 68% probability of belonging to the period between AD 614 to AD 656…”
Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-e-b-lumbard/new-light-on-the-history-_b_7864930.html

-   “It is not difficult to write text, count up letters and words and verses and chapters, then make adjustments in word choice, ordering, and sentence choice to maintain the desired meaning but conform to the numerological wishes of the scribe.”

If you are so sure, then I would suggest that you learn the Arabic language and make such verses. The most important requirement for me, and I imagine for most Muslims, would be the unique literary and phonetic form and meaning of the Qur’an as compared to the numerical associations. Also, if you can do it by becoming an illiterate, not using computers, fighting a few wars, leading your community, being a family man while essentially creating a social, religious and political revolution all at the same time, it would really help your argument.
However, here I should point out that I have listened to some of these previous endeavours and even though I don’t understand Arabic, whether it was luck or something deeper, I was able to instantaneously tell that the recited “verses” were not from the Qur’an. I found an attribute lacking in those “verses” which before that point I had never considered existed in the Qur’an. Interestingly, that very same attribute was mentioned about the Qur’an by one of the disbeliever poets during Prophet Muhammad’s time too.

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #87 on: January 16, 2016, 11:46:56 pm »
@StardustyPsyche,

-   “Oh, but I did another solution!  This time I duplicated the exact numbers of the so called golden ratio supposedly created in code by Allah.  And I can assure you, I am not Allah, yet I produced these numbers.  There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an”

Nice work. Now do this while not knowing what the golden ratio actually is.

-   “Yes, just go outside at night, there is nothing apparently holding up the “heavens”.  How obvious.  How is that supposed to be some kind of scientific miracle? … There is nothing scientific about that, it is a mere assertion of divine powers, just like thousands of other assertions made by all the other imagined gods. ‘... My Lord encompasses all things in His knowledge so will you not pay heed?’ Again, there is nothing scientific about that, it is a mere assertion of divine powers.”

Not every single word or term of the Qur’an is claimed to be a scientific miracle. Brother Dawud is simply writing the Qur’an verse 13:2 and in the end Qur’an verse 6:80.

-   “Now, if you want to say a “period” an undetermined length of time then that is no miracle.”
I don’t think anyone here is claiming that this is a scientific miracle in the first place.

As a final point, so that I can further gauge what you consider satisfactory evidence, I want to ask that if the Qur’an says something along the lines of one of your criticisms such as: “… man evolved from lower primates” or “…Actually it doesn’t settle, it mixes with the woman’s own fluids” would it then be satisfactory?

Regards,

Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #88 on: January 17, 2016, 11:39:07 am »
"NOW - IS THIS MIND BLOWING OR WHAT?"
No, not mind blowing.

"This Hadeeth has been proven by NON MUSLIM SCIENTISTS and BIOLOGISTS."
No, the Hadith asserts a pathogen on 1 wing and and antidote on the other wing.  All the above fails to support the alternate wing prediction.

No, it is not mind blowing that medicines are made from extracts of living things.  That's what penicillin, aspirin, and many other drugs are."



So you just admitted the Hadeeth is correct.. I see cracks are showing.. You starting to contradict yourself there Hasbara :)


We created man from an extract of clay.  Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed.  Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance).. (Quran, 23:12-14)

“We created man from an extract of clay. “
No, man did not come from clay.  Science tells us man evolved from lower primates.

Yes he was. Same elements.. When you will die.. you will become dust/soil; one more thing, the Mainstream theory of human evolution is a hoax perpetrated by no other than the Satanic NWO, with the feeble minded falling to it just like they fell to the 9/11 lie

“We made him as a drop”
A drop of what, semen?  How obvious.  It was well known that semen is necessary to reproduction in humans.

It is the accuracy dude. ZERO contradictions.. what are the odds of these thousands of miracles being CORRECT all together, unless it was a divine revelation?

Thank you for confirming my faith further

“in a place of settlement”
Semen can’t go too far once it is inside a vagina, now can it?  Actually it doesn’t settle, it mixes with the woman’s own fluids.

And what's that place called? lol..

“We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot),”
Obviously a crude description of the products of miscarriage.  When a woman has an miscarriage it looks vaguly like a leech or a blood clot.  Of course it is neither, so the verse is mistaken, but it is crudely description of the products of miscarriage.  The cord makes a baby a "suspended thing", how obvious.

The image was provided earlier. You are just deceiving yourself. Hope you are enjoying your Coma

“We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)”
Again the words are factually incorrect, we do not come from a chewed substance.  But this is just another crude description of the products of miscarriage.

Ditto

The Qur’an offers only obvious observations, crude descriptions available to 7th century man, or outright errors.

The Quran is the Word of God.

Thank you for strengthening my faith


Now are you gonna answer about 9/11?

Or ignore it again?


Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #89 on: January 17, 2016, 11:53:23 am »
Brother Ahmad,
Thank you very much indeed for your many very thoughtful words on so many subjects!

I will do my best to address every point, but I will be jumping around somewhat in several posts, so please do not think I am being hypocritical in cherry picking your words.  Feel free to join in conversationally at any time or to draw my attention to particular points you feel I might not have properly addressed.  I hope to address every point you have made in due course but it will take some time for me to do so.

What is a scientific miracle?  I suggest we ought to agree on terms before we spend too much time speaking at cross-purposes.

“From a rational point of view, if a plausible naturalistic explanation is available then that explanation will be adopted over a supernatural one. The very fact that a plausible naturalistic explanation is possible implies that there is no miracle because by definition a miracle is an event that cannot be explained naturalistically”
http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/does-the-quran-contain-scientific-miracles-a-new-approach/

My targets of refutation are the strong claims to supernatural necessity made by brother Osama on this site:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm

Brother Osama repeatedly claims that certain features of the Qur’an necessarily could not have been produced by 7th century men by their own intellect and powers, rather, Osama asserts, such items are proven to require supernatural intervention to explain their presence in the Qur’an.

It is the strong claims to supernatural necessity I am refuting.

Brother Ahmad, you make a very different claim, one of compatibility.  For you, it seems to me by your words, it is enough that the Qur’an is not in strict contradiction to modern science.

Since the Qur’an provides only simple descriptions of the natural world in terms available to 7th century man then those descriptions will be compatible with science if we allow for a very broad use of descriptive language and do not expect literal accuracy.

Here is what Webster defines as a Miracle:
Simple Definition of miracle
    : an unusual or wonderful event that is believed to be caused by the power of God
    : a very amazing or unusual event, thing, or achievement
Full Definition of miracle
    1    :  an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
    2    :  an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment
    3    Christian Science :  a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law

Out of this you chose:
“An extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment”
You chose as your primary definition what Webster lists as the second definition.  That is fine if that is what you choose for yourself, but it is not what I am refuting.  I am refuting the first definition:
“an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs”

In case after case brother Osama asserts that the words or the structure of the Qur’an could not possibly be accounted for by anything other than divine intervention.  My refutations are that these features were possible for 7th century man to implement without divine intervention.

And brother Osama is not alone.  There are millions of Muslims who agree with him.  Assertions of divine necessity in the so-called “scientific miracles of the Qur’an” abound in books and speeches and articles and web pages by the thousands.  I refute them all.

So, when the Qur’an, for example, describes the motion of the sun across the sky, and we allow for a broad use of descriptive or poetic language, then that description is very broadly compatible with modern science.  What is the miracle in that?  What could be more obvious than the facts of the apparent motion of the sun across the sky?

You offered an interpretation of the Arabic in the verse about the mixing of the waters to mean that they meet and then mix.  Well, fine.  That is obvious.  When a river flows to sea the waters meet and mix.  Yes, that is compatible with modern science.  That is a simple observation available to 7th century man.  How is that to be considered a miracle in any sense?

But your claim is not the claim most often heard by those who say the halocline or the visible demarcations between meeting waters is proof of something occurring that was unavailable to 7th century observation, yet is in the Qur’an and is therefore by necessity an act of divine intervention.  Such assertions are false.  The waters do mix.  There is no impenetrable barrier across which the waters do not transgress.  Further, certain apparent barriers were visible on the surface and were available to 7th century man.  The Qur’an is thus factually incorrect in its literal meaning, and merely descriptive in its broader meaning.  Either way, not a miracle of divine intervention.

More to come my brothers and sisters, please feel free to join in conversationally…
Peace to you all

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #90 on: January 17, 2016, 01:37:53 pm »
Mr. Habbal,
Here is the text
"The Prophet said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease."
Sahih Bukhari 4:54:537"

There is no evidence that one wing has a disease and the other wing has the cure for that disease.

It might be that we derive certain treatments from insects, such as the fly.  There is no evidence that one is well advised to "dip it in the drink" because the fly can carry a wide variety of pathogens, and antidotes to those pathogens have not been found on one wing of the fly or anyplace else on they fly.

You are engaging in fallacious thinking.  If you do not understand how your reasoning is fallacious then I invite you to study logical fallacies and how to make an argument that avoids them.

Brother Osama questions the validity of this Hadith here:
The Hadith of the fly is not a Mutawatir one
http://www.answering-christianity.com/hadiths_of_the_fly.htm


The topic of this thread is "There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an"  and that is the topic I intend to address here.




Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #91 on: January 17, 2016, 01:59:40 pm »
@StardustyPsyche,

-   “… The very fact that a plausible naturalistic explanation is possible implies that there is no miracle because by definition a miracle is an event that cannot be explained naturalistically’”
Who defines what is “plausible” and what isn’t? This is a subjective term.

-   “…it is enough that the Qur’an is not in strict contradiction to modern science.”
Again, “strict” is a subjective term.

-   “… those descriptions will be compatible with science if we allow for a very broad use of descriptive language and do not expect literal accuracy.”
You once again make the claim of vagueness. As I wrote before, all living things are made from water is not a vague statement as you yourself had no qualms when you were convinced this was a contradiction with Science.

-   “…My refutations are that these features were possible for 7th century man to implement without divine intervention.”

But we are not talking about ‘any’ 7th century man, are we? We are talking about the untaught Prophet Muhammad with his specific life surrounded by specific ignorance and various other factors. As I said before even in the worst-case scenario that the Prophet had access to all the books in the world, the Qur’an phenomenon will still remain unexplained.

-   “And brother Osama is not alone.  There are millions of Muslims who agree with him.  Assertions of divine necessity in the so-called “scientific miracles of the Qur’an” abound in books and speeches and articles and web pages by the thousands.  I refute them all.”

As the definitions involved here remain to be subjective there shall always be people who will believe these extraordinary instances easily and people who will be able to find reasons easily to not be satisfied.

-   “So, when the Qur’an, for example, describes the motion of the sun across the sky, and we allow for a broad use of descriptive or poetic language, then that description is very broadly compatible with modern science.  What is the miracle in that?  What could be more obvious than the facts of the apparent motion of the sun across the sky?”

“And the sun runs…” (Qur’an 36:38)

I believe that the part that is being claimed to be extraordinary is the speed of the sun. Simple observation puts the sun moving extremely slowly. It would’ve been much more understandable and relatable to the audience of Prophet Muhammad if the verse said something like: as the sun unhurriedly moves in the heavens the end of all time comes near you with the same sluggishness, steadily but surely, so repent!

-   “You offered an interpretation of the Arabic in the verse about the mixing of the waters to mean that they meet and then mix.  Well, fine.  That is obvious.  When a river flows to sea the waters meet and mix.  Yes, that is compatible with modern science.  That is a simple observation available to 7th century man.  How is that to be considered a miracle in any sense?”
I don’t think the “meeting” is supposed to be the extraordinary event here. Muslims, at-least those who understand the argument, don’t claim that.

-   “… There is no impenetrable barrier across which the waters do not transgress.  Further, certain apparent barriers were visible on the surface and were available to 7th century man.  The Qur’an is thus factually incorrect in its literal meaning, and merely descriptive in its broader meaning.  Either way, not a miracle of divine intervention.”

The following is according to my understanding which may be faulty. As I mentioned before as long as the layer remains stable the streams remain separate, in other words a barrier remains in effect. But when there is turbulence, possibly because of velocity difference between the two streams above a certain threshold, the barrier fails. From what I understand, the Qur’an is not claiming that the barrier or the separation remains in effect forever. If that were indeed the case there would’ve been no reason to use the word “maraja” (meeting). Therefore, I don’t see any factual incorrectness in the literal meaning.

I don’t know whether these barriers were visible from the surface or not, if that indeed is the case some evidence has to be shown for it and for that this information reached Prophet Muhammad. If these two conditions are met then, I suppose if this portion is considered on an individual basis kept separate from the entirety of the remaining Islam, it can be considered as a non-miracle.

-   “More to come my brothers and sisters, please feel free to join in conversationally…”
I will try to remain here for some time but I cannot give any guarantees.

Regards,

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #92 on: January 17, 2016, 03:35:29 pm »
Brother Ahmad,
"But we are not talking about ‘any’ 7th century man, are we? We are talking about the untaught Prophet Muhammad with his specific life surrounded by specific ignorance and various other factors. As I said before even in the worst-case scenario that the Prophet had access to all the books in the world, the Qur’an phenomenon will still remain unexplained."

Muhammad was anything but an ignorant man.  At the age of just 25 he became a wealthy traveler and trader through his marriage to an older wealthy widow.  He went on to lead a small group of followers and by his later years he had become the ruler of all Arabia.

Wealthy man, traveling man, theocratic ruler of all Arabia.

Sorry, but the old refrain of Muhammad the ignorant illiterate just doesn't work.  He undoubtedly had access to all the most learned men in Arabia, and undoubtedly conversed with knowledgeable men and ranking men from far away places.

Here is an example of the kind of apparent barrier visible on the surface
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgkiYvB3uJY

Here is another example, the title clearly contradicted by the video itself!  But there is the superficial appearance of a barrier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBT9C0wdieI

So, it was well within the capability of 7th century man to have observed these conditions on the surface and for a wealthy traveling trader and ruler of all Arabia to have heard of these observations.

You many listen to the Arabic recitation and read the Arabic script here
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=25&verse=53
“prohibiting partition, forbidding ban, forbidden to be passed, inviolable obstruction, complete partition”

According to those translators the words of the Qur’an are scientifically false, quite the opposite of a “scientific miracle”



Sahih International: And it is He who has released [simultaneously] the two seas, one fresh and sweet and one salty and bitter, and He placed between them a barrier and prohibiting partition.

Pickthall: And He it is Who hath given independence to the two seas (though they meet); one palatable, sweet, and the other saltish, bitter; and hath set a bar and a forbidding ban between them.

Yusuf Ali: It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.

Shakir: And He it is Who has made two seas to flow freely, the one sweet that subdues thirst by its sweetness, and the other salt that burns by its saltness; and between the two He has made a barrier and inviolable obstruction.

Muhammad Sarwar: It is He who has joined the two seas; one palatable and sweet, the other bitterly salty and has established a barrier between them as a partition.

Mohsin Khan: And it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water), one palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them.

Arberry: And it is He who let forth the two seas, this one Sweet, grateful to taste, and this salt, bitter to the tongue, and He set between them a barrier, and a ban forbidden.


Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #93 on: January 17, 2016, 04:13:44 pm »
Brother Ahmad,
““And the sun runs…” (Qur’an 36:38)

I believe that the part that is being claimed to be extraordinary is the speed of the sun. Simple observation puts the sun moving extremely slowly. It would’ve been much more understandable and relatable to the audience of Prophet Muhammad if the verse said something like: as the sun unhurriedly moves in the heavens the end of all time comes near you with the same sluggishness, steadily but surely, so repent!”

That section of the Qur’an discusses light versus darkness, the motion of the sun, and the phases of the moon, all in rather vague and poetic language with no special insights other then looking into the sky and poetically expressing a few general impressions of light, dark, the sun, and the moon.

Men have been writing poetically about the dark and the light, the sun and the moon for a very long time.  How is that in any way a miracle?

To you, Ahmad, run is associated with fast, the sun seems to go slow, so the verse must be a miraculous prediction of the sun going fast when it appears to go slow.  Please brother, you really must excuse me for not taking that kind of explanation seriously.

“Run” has a multitude of meanings.  A cold may run its course, a road runs North and South, water runs, my nose runs when I have a cold, a particular brand of shoe has sizes that run small.  We may run into difficulty, run for office, or run away from a problem. "Run" does not equal "fast motion"

The sun rises, moves across the sky, and sets.  Poetically described by 7th century religious man, we get the below:
Sahih International: And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.

Pickthall: And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.

Yusuf Ali: And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.

Shakir: And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.

Muhammad Sarwar: how the sun moves in its orbit and this is the decree of the Majestic and All-knowing God;

Mohsin Khan: And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.

Arberry: And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=36&verse=38

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an, only simple observations by 7th century man and a variety of textual statements that are literally false.

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #94 on: January 17, 2016, 05:51:29 pm »
@StardustyPsyche,

-   “Sorry, but the old refrain of Muhammad the ignorant illiterate just doesn't work.  He undoubtedly had access to all the most learned men in Arabia, and undoubtedly conversed with knowledgeable men and ranking men from far away places.”

By ignorance I mean the state of knowledge and learning in Arabia. From what I know, there weren’t any libraries or universities in that part of the world at that time. Even if we assume that all the learned people of the world came to meet the Prophet, the fact remains that most of these “known” facts were theories and not in the form of empirically provable facts. How was the Prophet able to distinguish the right ones from the wrong? How was the Prophet able to differentiate which person was just spreading hearsay and which person was actually correct?
For me the observation is that two waters are meeting each other and because, one water does not start encroaching back on land there is probably some mixing going on too. What’s not an observation is that there are cline or any layers prohibiting mixing temporarily. It can be a guess but not an observation.

As I have been repeatedly trying to tell you a barrier is by definition something that is forbidden to be crossed. As long as the separating layer remains, mixing is “prohibited”. The Qur’an does not claim that the partition remains forever. This understanding is, in my opinion, an incorrect inference fallacy.

-   “ “Run” has a multitude of meanings.  A cold may run its course, a road runs North and South, water runs, my nose runs when I have a cold, a particular brand of shoe has sizes that run small.  We may run into difficulty, run for office, or run away from a problem. "Run" does not equal "fast motion" ”

Did you seriously use that argument? You do know that phrases used in English are not necessarily used in the same way in other languages, right? I can’t say much about Arabic but I definitely know at-least one language where the literal translation of these phrases will sound pretty stupid.

And as for ‘just a poetic description’ it would be more believable in the scenario that we didn’t know the sun was in rapid motion and Islam critics wouldn’t have been trying to use this as a mistake in the Qur’an. Why is that when a verse conforms to modern scientific knowledge it is vague or poetic or metaphorical but when it allegedly contradicts it there is no clearer verse in the Qur’an? Remember that from the confirmation of the heliocentric model to the confirmation of motion of all heavenly bodies this Qur’an verse was “contradicting” modern science of the time.
A person can call it an extraordinary co-incidence, sure, but how many “co-incidences” is it going to take to satisfy that person?

Regards,

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #95 on: January 17, 2016, 06:47:39 pm »
Brother Ahmad,
"Did you seriously use that argument? You do know that phrases used in English are not necessarily used in the same way in other languages, right? I can’t say much about Arabic but I definitely know at-least one language where the literal translation of these phrases will sound pretty stupid."

Indeed. translation adds another difficulty, which is why I go to corpus.quran to read 7 different translations to try to get a consensus of meaning.

In many instances the literal words of the consensus of translations are factually incorrect.  However, your point is well taken and I am aware that even 7 translations could misrepresent the intent of the original author, which is why I also allow for the possibility of a mere general description of an observable situation.

So, that might seem like convenient vacillation on my part, but it is intended to be a disproof of miracle by 2 contingent methods.
1.   If the literal meaning of the consensus translations is to be used then the statement is scientifically false and thus not a scientific miracle.
2.   If the passage is taken in the generalized sense of an attempt at description that a 7th century man could understand then it is a mere description of observations, which is not a scientific miracle.

So, either way, there are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an.

If the passage had said “the sun travels a thousand, thousand, thousand times faster than a man can run and it is heading toward a place in the heavens we cannot see, while it orbits the common center of material of a hundred thousand thousand thousand suns once every two hundred fifty thousand thousand years with that collection of stars visible to you as the cloudy band in the clear night sky, taking the Earth and the other planets with it as they orbit the sun in elliptical orbits” then we could have a candidate for knowledge beyond that of 7th century man.

To address a previous comment, there are 92 naturally occurring elements, and if the creator of the universe had wished to do so I am sure he could have instructed his angel to tell Muhammad how to say that clearly, but he did no such thing.  I said “there are 92 fundamental atoms to be discovered on this Earth, and 5 of them are essential to the construction of a structure within our bodies too small for us to see”. Unlike Allah, I do not have perfect powers of articulation, so you have a valid point and it would have been better if Allah had said  “there are 92 fundamental atoms naturally occurring on this Earth, and 5 of them are essential to the construction of a structure within our bodies too small for us to see, but man will construct elements 93, 94 and beyond by smashing the naturally occurring atoms together in powerful machines he will construct”

Note, Allah makes no such specific predictions.

Allah could have done a very great deal better in making specific predictions about a myriad scientific facts undiscovered at that time.  Allah could have given Muhammad all sorts of information about the heliocentric solar system, the age of the universe, the occurrence of the elements, the cell structure of life, vaccines, and many other details woefully absent from the Qur’an.

All asserted “scientific miracles” are either literal errors or very generalized 7th century descriptions, either one of which disqualify them as true scientific miracles.


Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #96 on: January 17, 2016, 10:28:07 pm »
@StardustyPsyche,

At this point, this has apparently become a really futile discourse. Reminds of a discourse I once had about whether the attainment of adulthood earlier in life for cultures of the past, – as compared to the generally-accepted 18 years old concept of today – and as a consequence their tradition of earlier marriages, was ethical or not.

-   “If the passage is taken in the generalized sense of an attempt at description that a 7th century man could understand then it is a mere description of observations, which is not a scientific miracle.”
For some, the reasoning is satisfactory enough to be termed as a “miracle” and for others it obviously isn’t. Because of the inherent subjectivity of the issue and as a result the subjective reasoning involved, when it comes to individual “miracles” I don’t think there is much you can say to change the beliefs of the convinced and apparently not much the believers can say to convince you.

-   “If the passage had said “the sun travels a thousand, thousand, thousand … then we could have a candidate for knowledge beyond that of 7th century man.”

First of all, as I mentioned before, the Qur’an is not a book of Science and additionally, if the Qur’an was going to be so detailed about events it would have created problems with its memorization etc. Second, even in such a scenario there is no guarantee that people would’ve believed in it because once again it is possible that some old Greek philosopher might have claimed the same thing or it could’ve just been chalked up to a mere co-incidence.

-   “To address a previous comment, there are 92 naturally occurring elements … he will construct’ ”
From what I’ve read, some elements having atomic number greater than 92 have been found to occur naturally on Earth albeit in very small amounts. The same counter-argument as given in the above point for the rest of this paragraph.

-   “Allah could have done a very great deal better in making specific predictions about a myriad scientific facts undiscovered at that time.  Allah could have given Muhammad all sorts of information about the heliocentric solar system, the age of the universe, the occurrence of the elements, the cell structure of life, vaccines, and many other details woefully absent from the Qur’an.”

As I mentioned before that I belong to those group of Muslims who believe that the Qur’an wasn’t meant to be a book of science and the “scientific” verses were in part supposed to draw attention of the people. It is true that God could have told the Prophet all these things and God could also have made all people as Muslims to begin with or remove all diseases etc. But the nature of the Islamic doctrine is that, before the creation of Earth, God gave the choice to all humans whether they agree to go through a test and have a chance to attain heaven or to just forgo the test. Muslims believe that humanity accepted that test and our present scenario is the particular trial that we have been set. If this doctrine is indeed true then it is God’s prerogative to test us in the way He sees fit and our responsibility to find out the truth as best we can.

Just as a last point, I want to ask what do you think about the Qur’an verses 21:33 and 36:40.

Regards,

Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #97 on: January 18, 2016, 12:51:18 am »
Mr. Habbal,
Here is the text
"The Prophet said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease."
Sahih Bukhari 4:54:537"

There is no evidence that one wing has a disease and the other wing has the cure for that disease.

It might be that we derive certain treatments from insects, such as the fly.  There is no evidence that one is well advised to "dip it in the drink" because the fly can carry a wide variety of pathogens, and antidotes to those pathogens have not been found on one wing of the fly or anyplace else on they fly.

You are engaging in fallacious thinking.  If you do not understand how your reasoning is fallacious then I invite you to study logical fallacies and how to make an argument that avoids them.

Brother Osama questions the validity of this Hadith here:
The Hadith of the fly is not a Mutawatir one
http://www.answering-christianity.com/hadiths_of_the_fly.htm


The topic of this thread is "There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an"  and that is the topic I intend to address here.


"Maybe if I keep denying it, it will go away: Stardust

The Hadeeth on the Fly

One Wing Carrying Disease and the  Other Carrying the Cure

***

Student Research Seminar Team 
Course Med 497


Team Supervised By 
Dr. Jamaal Haamid

Students:

1-Sami Ibrahim Aj-Taili
2-'Aadil 'Abdur Rahman Al-Misnid
3-Khalid Dha'aar Al-'Utaibi.

Dept. Medical Microbiology
College of Science
Qassim University

Course Co-Coordinator
Dr. Saleh As-Saleh (rahimahullaah)


In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

Allah, the Most Might and Most Majestic, sent the Prophet Muhammad
(sallallaahu 'aleihi was-sallam: may Allah Exalt his mention, and render him
safe from all derogatory things), with guidance and the truth and said about him:


Nor does he (Muhammad sallallaahu 'aleihi was-sallam) speak of (his own)
desire. It is only a Revelation revealed [Translation of the meaning of the Qur'an;
Ch. 53, verses 3 & 4).
 
And from this, is the Prophet (sallallaahu 'aleihi was-sallam) saying:

"If a housefly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the
drink), for the one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure of
the disease." [Bukhari, vol. 4: 537].




Panel A   

Plate 2- Cultured water sample taken from a flask containing sterilized water and
where a fly fell (without submersion). Growth of pathogenic (disease causing)
bacterial colonies of the E Coli type were identified after taking samples from the
water in the flask for culture.   

Plate 1- Cultured water sample from the same flask following the complete dipping
of the fly. An entire disappearance of the bacterial growth seen in Petri-dish 2 is
clear. The new bacteria growing in plate 1 was identified as Actinomyces, the one
from which useful antibiotics can be extracted. This explains the complete
inhibition of growth in plate 2

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_eCjzHFVfBEY/TSCShw8Z31I/AAAAAAAAAJo/cd-rWhtFJNw/s320/Snapshot+2011-01-02+18-55-57.jpg

Panel B

Same as in Panel A,  but from another fly.

Plate 2- Cultured water sample taken from a flask containing sterilized water and
where a fly fell (without submersion). Growth of pathogenic (disease causing)
bacterial colonies of the Coynebacterium Dephtheroid type were identified after
taking samples from the water in the flask for culture.   

Plate 1- Cultured water sample from the same flask following the complete dipping
of the fly. An entire disappearance of the bacterial growth seen in Petri-dish 2 is
clear. The new bacteria growing in plate 1 was identified as Actinomyces, the one
from which useful antibiotics (more than 70%) can be extracted. This explains the
complete inhibition of growth in plate 2


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_eCjzHFVfBEY/TSCSuo5gDcI/AAAAAAAAAJs/qBxwxsMyc94/s320/Snapshot+2011-01-02+18-58-36.jpg
                                                                     
Panel C

Panel C: Same as before, yet with another fly.


Plate 2- Cultured water sample taken from a flask containing sterilized water and
where a fly fell (without submersion). Growth of pathogenic (disease causing)
bacterial colonies of the  Staphylococcus sp. type. were identified after taking
samples from the water in the flask for culture.   

Plate 1- Cultured water sample from the same flask following the complete dipping
of the fly. An entire disappearance of the bacterial growth seen in Petri-dish 2 is
clear. The new bacteria growing in plate 1 was identified as Actinomyces, the one
from which useful antibiotics can be extracted. This explains the complete
inhibition of growth in plate 2

The Same results were obtained with another type of disease-causing bacteria of the Salmonellas sp + proteus sp. Type.


Ooops... the study confirms the Hadeeth

Than you for strengthening my faith


Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #98 on: January 18, 2016, 01:08:22 am »
O and I see you evaded all my questions


Not very honest... but that's expected with the Hasbara brigade


Who was behind 9/11

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #99 on: January 18, 2016, 06:14:35 am »
Mr. Habbal,
The hadith calls for a pathogen on 1 wing and antidote on the other wing.

Nothing in your citation demonstrates the alternate wing assertion of the hadith.

Science does not work by 1 study.  A scientific confirmation requires repeatability. Can this experiment be repeated reliably by scientists everywhere?  And even if it can, the mere observation that a particular pathogen does not grow in large quantities visible as a colony in water over time does not mean the water is safe to drink immediately.

Perhaps worst of all you have committed a hasty generalization, a logical fallacy, which applied broadly could lead to a big health problem as brother Osama wisely pointed out:
“if we do this with multiple or many infested flies, then we will have a big health problem.”
http://www.answering-christianity.com/hadiths_of_the_fly.htm

This is your hasty generalization:
Flies carry pathogens A, B, C, D, E….
Water did not grow visibly over time pathogen C in 1 study.
Therefore humans are safe to drink pathogen C immediately if the fly is dipped.
Therefore humans are also safe from pathogens A, B, D, E…

What you are proposing violates the scientific method, makes a false generalization between a water culture over time and the effects of immediate ingestion by a human being, and falsely concludes that all dangerous microorganisms carried by flies will be neutralized by antidotes carried by the fly itself.

I invite you to study the scientific method and logical fallacies. What you have proposed is unscientific, logically fallacious, and a public health hazard.


Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #100 on: January 18, 2016, 06:26:08 am »
Peer reviewed in case you missed it the first time:

Ugly but useful: The sheep blowfly is one of the fly species that might provide humans with New Antibiotics.

The surface of flies is the last place you would expect to find antibiotics, yet that is exactly where a team of Australian researchers is concentrating their efforts.

Working on the theory that flies must have remarkable antimicrobial defences to survive rotting dung, meat and fruit, the team at the Department of Biological Sciences, Macquarie University, set out to identify those antibacterial properties manifesting at different stages of a fly's development.

"Our research is a small part of a global research effort for new antibiotics, but we are looking where we believe no-one has looked before," said Ms Joanne Clarke, who presented the group's findings at the Australian Society for Microbiology Conference in Melbourne this week. The project is part of her PhD thesis.

The scientists tested four different species of fly: a house fly, a sheep blowfly, a vinegar fruit fly and the control, a Queensland fruit fly which lays its eggs in fresh fruit. These larvae do not need as much antibacterial compound because they do not come into contact with as much bacteria.

Flies go through the life stages of larvae and pupae before becoming adults. In the pupae stage, the fly is encased in a protective casing and does not feed. "We predicted they would not produce many antibiotics," said Ms Clarke.

They did not. However the larvae all showed antibacterial properties (except that of the Queensland fruit fly control).

As did all the adult fly species, including the Queensland fruit fly (which at this point requires antibacterial protection because it has contact with other flies and is mobile).

Such properties were present on the fly surface in all four species, although antibacterial properties occur in the gut as well. "You find activity in both places," said Ms Clarke.

"The reason we concentrated on the surface is because it is a simpler extraction."

The antibiotic material is extracted by drowning the flies in ethanol, then running the mixture through a filter to obtain the crude extract.

When this was placed in a solution with various bacteria including E.coli, Golden Staph, Candida (a yeast) and a common hospital pathogen, antibiotic action was observed every time.

"We are now trying to identify the specific antibacterial compounds," said Ms Clarke. Ultimately these will be chemically synthesised.

Because the compounds are not from bacteria, any genes conferring resistance to them may not be as easily transferred into pathogens. It is hoped this new form of antibiotics will have a longer effective therapeutic life.

CHUTNEY

And that's not where it stops... there is MOAR Big Grin from other research centers.

Antibacterial action of Myiasis-causing flies.


Erdmann GR.
Department of Pharmacy Practice, College of Pharmacy, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN 55455, USA.

Some species of calliphorid blowflies lay their eggs in wounds; their larvae develop by feeding on the tissue, and the infection is known as myiasis or fly-strike. But wounds, from whatever cause, are frequently contaminated with bacteria - many o f which can spread in the bloodstream causing septicaemia and/or toxaemia. For example, wound contamination with Clostridium welchii - leading to 'gas gangrene' - was a frequent cause of death amongst battlefield casualties. It is from such situations that early observations were made on the beneficial effect of some blowfly larvae in limiting the bacterial infection of wounds. Indeed, some military surgeons would deliberately infest wounds with blowfly maggots in order to prevent bacterial complications. Now, a century or two later, the search for new antibiotics had led researchers back to these early observations, and in this article, Gory Erdmann describes progress in understanding the antibacterial action of blowfly maggots.

PMID: 15462958 [PubMed]

RAITA

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...1000001517

Oh and MOAR yet again...

"Brazilian Journal of Microbiology
Print version ISSN 1517-8382
Braz. J. Microbiol. vol.39 no.2 São Paulo Apr./June 2008
doi: 10.1590/S1517-83822008000200035

VETERINARY MICROBIOLOGY

Antibacterial activities of multi drug resistant Myroides odoratimimus bacteria isolated from adult flesh flies (Diptera: Sarcophagidae) are independent of metallo beta-lactamase gene"


This Hadeeth has been proven by NON MUSLIM SCIENTISTS and BIOLOGISTS.


Im still awaiting your reply on 9/11

WE been answering you over and over.. You could return the courtesy unless you got something to hide...

Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #101 on: January 18, 2016, 06:52:26 am »
Clearly the fly has both the disease and and the cure and that's not something you can refute. Also the prophet clearly states that the fly has both the disease and the cure.


 Over 1400 years ago, Prophet Muhammad told his followers to submerge the fly completely to be protected from any diseases.  1400 years later, scientists and student put it to the test and the results are as you see.

I cited peer reviewed scientific experiments which you most likely didn't even read because "Hasbara"

Check the links, and follow the research - it is actually MIND BLOWING and proves the hadeeth true.



You do not want to admit that, I get it :)

It gotta hurt


And now.. About 9/11 attacks....


I am still waiting. Hopefully you won;t keep me waiting for too long now

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #102 on: January 18, 2016, 07:03:38 am »
Brother Ahmad,
“Just as a last point, I want to ask what do you think about the Qur’an verses 21:33 and 36:40.”

Here is 21:33 from corpus.quran:
Sahih International: And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming.
Pickthall: And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.
Yusuf Ali: It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.
Shakir: And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.
Muhammad Sarwar: It is God who has created the night, the day, the Sun, and Moon and has made them swim in a certain orbit.
Mohsin Khan: And He it is Who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit floating.
Arberry: It is He who created the night and the day, the sun and the moon, each swimming in a sky.

The author is simply describing the prevailing cosmology of the day.  For all of human history people had observed that objects arc across the sky.  The sun, moon, and 5 wanderers that shine with a steady light are found only within a narrow band of sky centered on what we now call the ecliptic.  These objects have always held a special fascination for man.

It has long been commonplace to attribute the creation and even the motions of these objects to gods or a god.  The Romans gave them the names we use today, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Venus, and Mercury.  The moon is of course very obvious and the sun is naturally revered as the giver of warmth and light.

Nearly everyone for all history thought the sun, the moon, the other planets, and the stars all orbit the Earth.  Many people constructed cosmologies involving layers of spheres.  This was not stupid; rather, it is actually very difficult even with a basic telescope to prove the sun does not orbit the Earth!

This is not a scientific miracle, merely the same observations and conclusions nearly all human being had made up to that day.


Here is 36:40 from corpus.quran
Sahih International: It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.
Pickthall: It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
Yusuf Ali: It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).
Shakir: Neither is it allowable to the sun that it should overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day; and all float on in a sphere.
Muhammad Sarwar: how the sun is not supposed to catch-up with the moon, nor is the night to precede the day. All of them are to float in a certain orbit;
Mohsin Khan: It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit.
Arberry: It behoves not the sun to overtake the moon, neither does the night outstrip the day, each swimming in a sky.

I would repeat my above statements with regard to these similar passages, but I would note a scientific error in the case of 36:40.

The sun does reach the moon, in the sense that their positions do cross at new moon, which is from our point of view no moon.  In fact, when the sun and the moon align at new moon we get a solar eclipse, at which time the night does, in some sense, outstrip the day.

But, those inaccuracies aside, these passages are simply the descriptions of the day, the night, the sun, and them moon commonly made by cultures worldwide for all time.

The only stunning thing about these passages is that some people consider them somehow miraculous.

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #103 on: January 18, 2016, 08:13:56 am »
@StardustyPsyche,

“The Arabic word used in the above verse [Qur’an 21:33] is yasbahun . The word yasbahun is derived from the word sabaha. It carries with it the idea of motion that comes from any moving body. If you use the word for a man on the ground, it would not mean that he is rolling but would mean he is walking or running. If you use the word for a man in water it would not mean that he is floating but would mean that he is swimming.
Similarly, if you use the word yasbah for a celestial body such as the sun it would not mean that it is only flying through space but would mean that it is also rotating as it goes through space.”

Source: http://sunnahonline.com/library/the-majestic-quran/430-quran-and-modern-science-compatible-or-incompatible-the#h4-1-i-the-existence-of-subatomic-particles

-   “I would repeat my above statements with regard to these similar passages, but I would note a scientific error in the case of 36:40. The sun does reach the moon, in the sense that their positions do cross at new moon, which is from our point of view no moon.  In fact, when the sun and the moon align at new moon we get a solar eclipse, at which time the night does, in some sense, outstrip the day.”

At this point I have become pretty certain that you are trying hard to find any mistakes in the Qur’an. You could have used ‘possibly’ or ‘apparently’ in your claim of a “scientific error” but instead you chose to make an absolute statement.

A solar eclipse actually happened during the life of the Prophet. Calculated Astronomy data and the narrations of the Prophet’s life confirms that. By your own admission as “from our point of view” when the moon comes in front of the sun, it has, observationally speaking “overtaken” the sun, so doesn’t it mean that the verse was wrong with respect to the “Science” or observations of that time? In contrast, today’s science tells us that the moon doesn’t actually overtake the sun, simple observation may phrase it like overtaking but in reality that doesn’t happen.

Regards,

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #104 on: January 18, 2016, 10:00:13 pm »
Brother Ahmad,
"today’s science tells us that the moon doesn’t actually overtake the sun"

Ok, depends how one defines "overtake".  In angular measure, yes, the sun and the moon do overtake each other.  If, on a circular track, one racer overtakes another that does not mean he collides with the other, rather, that his his angular measure passes that of the other.

According to the Oxford dictionary (I know you cite Webster but I prefer Oxford)
overtake
1. Catch up with and pass while traveling in the same direction

The sun and the moon travel in nearly the same arc across the sky, yet one passes the other at new moon.  So I think it is an error to fail to account for this observational fact.

"I have become pretty certain that you are trying hard to find any mistakes in the Qur’an"
Actually, the mistakes find me!  I mean, every time I look up the supposed "stunning scientific miracle" asserted by brother Osama all I find is either a vague description of the obvious or outright error.

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an.

I don't have to look for mistakes, brother Osama points me to them again and again.








Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #105 on: January 19, 2016, 12:41:22 am »
@StardustyPsyche,

-   “Ok, depends how one defines "overtake".  In angular measure, yes, the sun and the moon do overtake each other.  If, on a circular track, one racer overtakes another that does not mean he collides with the other, rather, that his his angular measure passes that of the other.”

The following is from my own reasoning which can be faulty. In a circular track, both the racers will be having almost the same starting and ending point or in other words the same or similar “orbit”. The sun and the moon don’t have the same orbit. In the geocentric model I suppose in a way they would, but not in the heliocentric model. A runner on one track cannot “overtake” a runner from another track. Therefore, from an observer on Earth’s point of view these heavenly bodies might appear to be at times “overtaking” each other, but in reality they are competing on completely different “tracks”.

Regards,

Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #106 on: January 19, 2016, 02:00:04 am »
You see how he been avoiding my questions and replies like the plague?


I know where to squeeze


Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #107 on: January 19, 2016, 08:15:22 am »
Brother Ahmad,
We are getting into a rather fine detail of parsing an English word I am not certain is absolutely the correct or best translation, but "overtake" does seem to be a fair word to use in this case.

When driving on a multi-lane road in the same direction one car overtakes another when it passes the other.  If they were in the same lane there would be, instead, a rear end collision.

To overtake on a curve is similar, one car passes the other, but in different lanes.  On a circular track the runners run in different lanes, and to overtake means to pass but along a different path.  Passing means to achieve a greater distance run which can also be expressed as a greater angular measure traversed.

In the 7th century nearly all people accepted the Ptolemaic system.


Note, the moon, mercury, venus, sun, mars, jupiter, and saturn were treated the same in terms of motion and were all considered planets of the earth. 

Also, note the position of the stars in a spherical shell outside the planets, hence the reference to spheres in the Qur'an.

It is interesting to note that this system got the order of the planets correct, is correct in that the moon is closest to the earth, and interchanges the position of the earth and the sun such that mercury and venus are inside whereas mars, jupiter, and saturn are outside which is also correct.

This model was no accident, rather, it fits quiet well with careful naked eye observations.  Not shown in this image are the epicycles needed to account for retrograde motion.

So, brother Ahmad, we can see that the verses in the Qur'an are simply poetic and very simple words that describe the prevailing view of that day.

But, those words are in error to the extent that the planets do overtake each other as they move in their circular tracks, just like racers who stay in their own lanes but overtake by running faster.

The heliocentric model was known to learned people as a hypothesis dating back to ancient Greece, and at least one Muslim scholar did in fact promote that hypothesis.  But, it seemed rather fantastic to people that the Earth, which is obviously standing still, would actually be moving, and the sun, which is obviously moving, would actually be standing still.  That idea seemed so outlandish to nearly all humans that Aristotle and Ptolemy ruled the day for millennia.

It was Christian Europe that deduced the truth we all know today, and corrected the scientific errors of the Qur'an and nearly everybody else, thanks to Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, and Newton.

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #108 on: January 19, 2016, 08:22:04 am »
Mr. Habbal,
Asked and answered.  But, you seem unwilling or unable to engage in consideration of your fallacy of hasty generalization.  See « Reply #99 on: January 18, 2016, 06:14:35 AM » for a more complete explanation of your error.

As for your repeated questions about 9/11, again, asked and answered:
The topic of this thread is "There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an" and that is the topic I intend to discuss here.



Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #109 on: January 19, 2016, 08:41:28 am »
Riiiite... you "answered"


Still i will take the scientists' words over yours.

And they confirmed the Fly's miracle

Subhanallah

How did Sayyidna Muhammad know about pathogens and anti-pathogens 1500 years back.. one revelation among 100s others i may add  :)

Mind blowing

Shalom! :)

Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #110 on: January 19, 2016, 09:45:59 am »
Right

In case you missed this one:


"This Hadeeth has been proven by NON MUSLIM SCIENTISTS and BIOLOGISTS."
No, the Hadith asserts a pathogen on 1 wing and and antidote on the other wing.  All the above fails to support the alternate wing prediction.

No, it is not mind blowing that medicines are made from extracts of living things.  That's what penicillin, aspirin, and many other drugs are."

http://vigilantcitizen.com/forums/Thread-An-atheist-and-a-fly

So you just admitted the Hadeeth is correct.. I see cracks are showing.. You starting to contradict yourself there :)


We created man from an extract of clay.  Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed.  Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance).. (Quran, 23:12-14)

“We created man from an extract of clay. “
No, man did not come from clay.  Science tells us man evolved from lower primates.

What science? NWO pseudo-science you meant :) Yes he was created from clay. Same elements.. When you will die.. you will become dust/soil; one more thing, the Mainstream theory of human evolution is a hoax perpetrated by no other than the Satanic NWO, with the feeble minded falling to it just like they fell to the 9/11 lie

“We made him as a drop”
A drop of what, semen?  How obvious.  It was well known that semen is necessary to reproduction in humans.

It is the accuracy dude. ZERO contradictions.. what are the odds of these thousands of miracles being CORRECT all together, unless it was a divine revelation?

Thank you for confirming my faith further

“in a place of settlement”
Semen can’t go too far once it is inside a vagina, now can it?  Actually it doesn’t settle, it mixes with the woman’s own fluids.

And what's that place called? lol..

“We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot),”
Obviously a crude description of the products of miscarriage.  When a woman has an miscarriage it looks vaguly like a leech or a blood clot.  Of course it is neither, so the verse is mistaken, but it is crudely description of the products of miscarriage.  The cord makes a baby a "suspended thing", how obvious.

The image was provided earlier. You are just deceiving/lying to yourself.

“We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)”
Again the words are factually incorrect, we do not come from a chewed substance.  But this is just another crude description of the products of miscarriage.

Ditto

The Qur’an offers only obvious observations, crude descriptions available to 7th century man, or outright errors.

The Quran is the Word of God.

Thank you for strengthening my faith



Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #111 on: January 19, 2016, 01:04:07 pm »
@StardustyPsyche,

At this point I’m really confused about what you are actually trying to say.

From what I understand you are trying to say that because the Qur’an contradicts the Ptolemaic model or at-least part of it, it is a scientific mistake.
Using the analogy of a multilane road, in the Ptolemaic model the Sun, the moon and all planets are in a position to “overtake” each other from the perspective of a person on Earth, as would’ve been observed at the time of the solar eclipse. The moon would have “overtaken” or “passed-by” the Sun on that “multilane road”.

Or in other words, as Sahih International used the word “reach” instead of “overtake”, in that solar eclipse the sun would have had definitely from the perspective of a person on Earth “reached” the moon. But because of the difference of the “multilane roads” these two objects aren’t actually overtaking eachother.

For example, a ferry “orbiting” the Statue of Liberty and a car “orbiting” the Eiffel Tower cannot overtake each other because their “multilane roads” are different. From the perspective of a person to the east of these two buildings with the two objects (i.e. the ferry and the car) in his straight line of sight, who is able to look at only these objects, can theoretically say that, according to his line of sight, one is overtaking the other, but from the perspective of a person in space the question doesn’t even arises. Apologies for the confusing example.

-   “Note, the moon, mercury, venus, sun, mars, jupiter, and saturn were treated the same in terms of motion and were all considered planets of the earth”
What’s this got to do here? This kind of confirms the Qur’an.

-   “Also, note the position of the stars in a spherical shell outside the planets, hence the reference to spheres in the Qur'an.”

OK, so when a “celestial sphere” is used as a practical tool for “spherical astronomy”, are modern astronomers accepting the Ptolemaic model too? Additionally, out of the eight different (only talking about English here) translations of both the verses only “Shakir” is the one using the word “spheres” in each verse and from what I know about the meanings of the individual words none of them are individually translated as “spheres”. “Shakir”” probably used the word as what he deemed to be an explanation.

-   “So, brother Ahmad, we can see that the verses in the Qur'an are simply poetic and very simple words that describe the prevailing view of that day.”

The prevailing view of the day includes the sun and the moon “overtaking” or “passing-by” in the metaphorical “multilane road”.

-   “But, those words are in error to the extent that the planets do overtake each other as they move in their circular tracks, just like racers who stay in their own lanes but overtake by running faster.”
I don’t know if there are more verses talking about this matter or not, but where Qur’an 36:40 is concerned it is specifically talking about the sun and the moon and no other planets.

-   “It was Christian Europe that deduced the truth we all know today, and corrected the scientific errors of the Qur'an and nearly everybody else, thanks to Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, and Newton.”
More like the ones who got famous for deducing the truth, kind of like Christopher Columbus’ “discovery”. As with most historical discoveries no one can be sure who originally presented the idea.
George Saliba, a Professor of Arabic and Islamic Studies in the Department of Middle East and Asian Studies at Columbia University, in his book ‘Islamic Science and the Making of the European Renaissance’, “details the innovations (including new mathematical tools) made by the Islamic astronomers from the thirteenth to sixteenth centuries, and offers evidence that Copernicus could have known of and drawn on their work.”
Source: http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/islamic-science-and-making-european-renaissance

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #112 on: January 19, 2016, 06:37:38 pm »
Quote
Note, the moon, mercury, venus, sun, mars, jupiter, and saturn were treated the same in terms of motion and were all considered planets of the earth.

Stardusty,

In space, any object can be the center of its system or even the Universe.  Not that Allah Almighty ever said this about earth in the Glorious Quran, but the Noble Verses that speak about the sun and the moon and other planets in relation to the earth are not in contradiction with sceince.  You can technically and scientifically speak a system with the earth being the focus or the center.  After all, this is our planet that we live in.  Consider the following images.  All rotate around each others even when the sun appears to be the center and the focus:







The Earth's Movement in Space:

Watch this video to see the Noble Verses that speak about earth's movement in space:


 
Also visit this article:  What about the sun "running" (different from the "sun's orbit" or "orbit of the sun" in other Noble Verses) in Noble Verse 36:38?

  

A must-watch video:

Scientists today believe that our galaxy is currently traveling towards a Black Hole and Star Vega.  So the sun, which is the mother of our Solar System, will not just exist forever.  There will come a time where it will come to a halt in both motion and light.

  

Also, the Glorious Quran [1] declares that the earth is:

1- Spherical.
2- Suspended in Space.
3- Rotating around itself. (emphasis on dahaha and its derivatives)
4- Is traveling in Space.
5- Also, all celestial bodies are Yaa'rujoon (traveling in orbits) in space.  Another Video:  The countless orbits in the Universe, and the day-layer reveals the sun's brightness [2] [3] [4] [5].
  1. Video file.
  2. The Motion of Earth in the Noble Quran.
    Egg-shaped earth.

  

A STUNNING Hadith [1] [2] [3] [4] from Prophet Muhammad regarding the rising and setting POINTS:

 


To the reader, the following links thoroughly demonstrate many of the Glorious Quran's STUNNING and Overwhelming Numerical and Scientific Miracles:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm


Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #113 on: January 20, 2016, 12:01:21 am »
Brother Ahmad,
Yes, I see I was not as clear as I should have been.  Thank you for pointing out how a reader could easily conclude I was jumping around in my points.  Fair enough.

I was speaking from several perspectives, and in my mind at the time it was all very clear, but as I mentioned previously, I do not have perfect powers of articulation :-)

Please allow me to put it this way:
The text of the Qur'an on celestial observations is easily accounted for by the prevailing notion of the day, geocentrism as described in the Ptolemaic model. 

That is my core refutation that any of the celestial descriptions in the Qur'an are miraculous.  They are easily accounted for as the mere descriptions of the prevailing theories of the day.  Any ordinary man writing with no divine guidance whatever would and did write essentially those same words again and again.  That alone disqualifies any celestial descriptions in the Qur'an as scientific miracles.

To qualify as a scientific miracle there must be something about the text that necessarily requires a supernatural origin.  All assertions of scientific miracles in the Qur'an fail that test.

Scientific analysis still contains the observation of apparent motion.  Apparent motion is the motion we observe from our point of view.  That is the sense I was referring to with my discussions about overtaking.  From our point of view the sun, moon, and planets do overtake each other.  So, the description in the Qur'an, from the point of view of apparent motion, is correct in many details, but fails to account for the motions at new moon, possibly because those motions are not easily observed and must be deduced by careful record keeping and calculations over time.

To the extent the Qur'anic descriptions are a description of the Ptolemaic system they are simply mistaken, since we now know the heliocentric view is correct.

In a rather feeble attempt to salvage this dismal situation in the Qur'an some have tried a bit of after the fact cherry picking by saying the "orbit" was not the Ptolemaic orbit of the sun but rather the orbit of the sun in the galaxy.  I must say that is a rather desperate bit of rationalization, given that no Islamic scholars predicted such an orbit based upon the text prior to the scientific discovery of the galaxy.

If the the Qur'an had made the statement "the cloudy band across the sky is comprised of a hundred thousand thousand thousand stars which are actually various sizes of suns, and they are all orbiting a common center of material, with our sun orbiting once every two hundred fifty thousand thousand years" then the assertion of the word "orbit" to galactic orbit would be credible, but it is not.

As for the spheres, again, there is no necessity of divine origin and therefore their mention is no evidence of a scientific miracle.  Yes, spherical coordinates are a part of modern math and science, but the ancients long imagined celestial spheres of various sorts.  The Qur'an mentions "sphere" in relation to its celestial descriptions, so again, this cannot be considered a miracle because it was so commonly used in that era.

"More like the ones who got famous for deducing the truth, kind of like Christopher Columbus’ “discovery”."
Indeed, brother Ahmad, scientists do not create truth, they deduce a preexisting truth.  To remain mired in the falsehoods of ancient texts is to be inhibited from deducing truth.

The truth about our existence is to be found, not in the ancient mythologies recorded in holy books, rather, in careful observation and deduction of the universe itself.  When a man succeeds a step in that direction, he does indeed earn our respect and gains deserved fame.





Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #114 on: January 20, 2016, 01:35:21 am »
Brother Osama,
“but the Noble Verses speak about the sun and the moon and other planets in relation to the earth are not in contradiction with science.”

Even if I were to grant that, which I do not, still, that does not constitute a “miracle” much less a “stunning scientific miracle” as you propose repeatedly.

Compatibility does not equal “miracle”.  The Qur’an says there is a moon.  Modern science says there is a moon.  Ok, but what does that prove?  That is an easily observable fact.  Easily observable facts are compatible with modern science.  They are not miracles.

“You can technically and scientifically speak a system with the earth being the focus or the center”
Only if one has a very egocentric worldview, or we are speaking of apparent motion.  No comprehensive modern scientific model puts the Earth at the center of a celestial system.


“All rotate around each others even when the sun appears to be the center and the focus:”
Objects in a system under study rotate around a common center of mass.  Ok, I do not see how this in any way supports any supposed “scientific miracles” in the Qur’an.

You go on to assert these things are claimed in the Qur’an but I did not see the text quoted you assert these claims come from, so I suspect your claims are not valid in the first place, but let’s just suppose for a moment the Qur’an does assert these things.  Are they miraculous?

To be a scientific miracle they must be necessarily of divine origin.  To be a miracle they must require a divine origin.  If any human origin is possible they are disqualified from the classification as “miracle”

“Also, the Glorious Quran [1] declares that the earth is:”

“1- Spherical.”
Not a miracle because there were many known evidences of the spherical shape of the Earth.  The Greeks even calculated the diameter of the Earth.

2- Suspended in Space.
Not a miracle because celestial models of the day placed the earth in space, surrounded by planets and stars also in space

3- Rotating around itself. (emphasis on dahaha and its derivatives)
Not a miracle because it had been proposed previously by ordinary humans.

4- Is traveling in Space.
Really?  Where?  Please cite for me the Quranic passage that explicitly states the Earth is orbiting the Sun, and our solar system is orbiting our galactic center of mass.
Not a miracle because no such specific descriptions exist.

5- Also, all celestial bodies are Yaa'rujoon (traveling in orbits) in space
Please, brother Osama, everybody thought that.  That is what the Ptolemaic system was, the celestial bodies in their orbits.  A few even thought the sun was at the center and other bodies were in orbits.  These were ideas well known in that day.
Need I say, not a miracle?

You underlined
“it sets in one place and rises in another”
That is your “miracle”?  The sun sets in one place and rises in another place?  I must admit to being flabbergasted.  Is there anything more obvious in life than the fact that the sun sets in one place and rises in another?

Yes, that is compatible with modern science…that is indeed true.  And it is indeed stunning, but I am very sorry to say not stunning in the sense you generally speak of.

I really do warmly invite you to take another look at brother Hamza’s  journey on this subject.  I realize you do not consider him to be a linguistic authority, and certainly, speaking Arabic as a first language is a significant advantage in Quranic study.

But, when a man cites “it sets in one place and rises in another” in support of a divinity hypothesis I believe linguistic nuances of translation become less important than the ability to analyze scientific questions while avoiding logical fallacies.  In that regard I suggest you could gain some valuable insights from brother Hamza if you are not prepared to accept them from an atheist such as I.

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/does-the-quran-contain-scientific-miracles-a-new-approach/


Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #115 on: January 20, 2016, 01:40:39 am »
This guy is discussing science while asserting that the evolution hoax is truthful

Priceless


So far you have not been able to refute even one claim.

Tell me something, how did the Quran know there are undersea waves? Sayyida Muhammad pbuh had a submarine?

How did the  Quran know if you climb high it becomes harder to breathe? was Sayyidna Muhammad a Sherpa (climber)?

How did the Quran know that plants come in pairs?

How did the Quran know about photosynthesis...


and countless more.

ALL of them, 100s are spot on

In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly, if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5%.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Let’s assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e. the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it up to you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses.


This is a clear cut proof that the Quran is man-written and not a divine revelation.

/Sarcasm off

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #116 on: January 20, 2016, 05:10:49 am »
Stardusty,

Debating with you has devolved to ridiculous levels.  You just like to endlessly argue and argue even when you know your position is weak, or even soundly refuted.  I won't let you drag the brothers here into your endless spiral, especially when we have thoroughly refuted you here.

You keep bringing your nonsense about what brother Hamza Tzortzis said as if he is the ultimate authority.  I have already refuted you and him by pointing out that he never even addressed the Numerical Miracles in the Glorious Quran.  And you also danced around this point.  And he also said he's uncertain about the Scientific Miracles.  So he wasn't even speaking with certainty, and worst, he is not even an Arabic speaker!  I have used 7 encyclopedic Arabic dictionaries that demonstrated the Noble Words' Scientific meanings.  The reader can visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/sci_prophecy.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

I also showed you Allah Almighty's Divine Prophecy and Promise about someday revealing His Miracles in the Universe and inside ourselves so that the Miracles of the Quran would make it abundantly clear that this Holy Book is indeed the Divine Truth.

I am going to freeze this thread.  People have lives, and I don't like it when they start getting obsessed with blogging.  It becomes addictive and compulsory

To the reader, to see where Stardusty had been thoroughly refuted, begin reading here:

www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php?topic=1999.msg8248#msg8248

Also, my refutation to brother Hamza Tzortzis is located here:

www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php?topic=1999.msg8259#msg8259

You're still welcomed to blog on this board.  Just don't spam please!  I still want to be fair to you.

This thread is now locked.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #117 on: January 20, 2016, 01:40:51 pm »
And Stardusty, here are links that talk about other Scientific Miracles in space:

1-  Black holes, www.answering-christianity.com/black_holes.htm

2-  Pulsars (knocking and piercing), www.answering-christianity.com/pulsars_are_knocking_and_penetrating.htm

3-  Our sun will turn into a White Dwarf (Science says because it lacks iron).  The Glorious Quran said also that our sun will turn into a White Dwarf: www.answering-christianity.com/sun_becomes_white_dwarf_star.htm

4-  The expansion of the earth.  Science declares that it was 10% of its current size today.  The Glorious Quran fully supports this:  www.answering-christianity.com/adam_90_feet_tall.htm

5-  The moon reflects light, www.answering-christianity.com/ahmed_eldin/light_of_moon.htm

6-  The earth's egg-shaped physical form and orbit: www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm

7-  The moon's S-Shaped orbit around the earth: www.answering-christianity.com/moon_orbit_miracle.htm

8-  The Universe is full of Cosmic Webs: www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm#explosion_of_universe

9-  When a Solar System explodes (Samaa' is singular Heaven and not Plural Samawaat) it blows up and forms a shape of a rose: www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm#explosion_of_universe



There are literally 10s of other STUNNING Miracles mentioned in the Glorious Quran.  See them at:

www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/sci_prophecy.htm


This brief post does not do it justice!

Don't forget also to visit the Glorious Quran's stunning Numerical Miracles:

www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm

Take care,
Osama Abdallah