Author Topic: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an  (Read 60188 times)

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Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2016, 02:56:01 AM »
One more thing you have to factor in brother Dawud


The Quran was NOT revealed one Surah at a time.. or in chronological order

The Surah were revealed "haphazardly"

Few verses from one Surah, then Allah moves to another Surah and fills some verses there.... etc

All over a period of 23 years

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-ULa2JzPG0

Quran's Challenge for a Literary Equivalent to God's Words remains unmatched even after One and a Half Millenium.

And now using the most modern of Technological means of communication available to us, The Linguistic Miracles are being re-told so that anyone and everyone can enjoy these Linguistic Miracles of The Divine Book.

To better Appreciate these Miracles do keep in Mind that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) couldn't Read or Write and He (pbuh) couldn't edit or re-edit the words once they had come out of his (pbuh) mouth. As they were immediately spread far and wide. Any case of editing would have been picked up on by his (pbuh) enemies and spread far and wide to discredit him (pbuh) and would have been very very widely reported. so the Whole Quran is one oral attempt with no editing process whatsoever.

None COULD HAVE ENGINEERED THEE QURAN BUT ALLAH HIMSELF


You can boil in your rage and hatred mr. Hasbara

Salam :)

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2016, 04:43:15 AM »
An off-topic but important post:

Commenters should refrain from using indecent language for "StardustyPsyche".

Qur'an:

“Invite (mankind, O Muhammad SAW) to the Way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Inspiration and the Quran) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better...
(Qur'an, Surah an-Nahl(16):125)

Once, a scholar entered into the presence of an ‘Abbaasi caliph and said: “I am going to admonish you in a harsh manner, so listen.” Upon hearing this, the caliph said: “O brother! Be gentle, for I am not worse than Pharaoh, and you are not better than Moosaa whom Allah addressed along with his brother, Haaroon, saying:

And speak to him [i.e. Pharoah] with gentle speech that perhaps he may be reminded or fear [ Allah ]."
(Qur'an, Surah Taha(20):44)

Hadith:

Our religion does not even allow us to revile and abuse the sinner. Abu Hurayrah, may Allaah be pleased with him, reported: “A man drank alcohol so he was brought before the Prophet sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam who said: "Beat him (according to the rules set by Allah)." Abu Hurayrah, said: Some of us beat him with our hands, others with their sandals and still others with pieces of cloth. When the man went away, some said: May Allaah humiliate you! Whereupon, the Prophet sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam said: “Do not say that. Do not support Shaytaan against your fellow brother”. (Bukhaari).
Source: http://www.alminbar.com/khutbaheng/334.htm

‘The best amongst you are those who have the best manners and character.’ (Bukhaari)

“The Prophet (Sal Allaahu Alaiyhi wa Sallam) was not one who would abuse (others) or say obscene words, or curse (others)…” (Bukhaari)

“The inmates of Hell are of five types….” And among them he mentioned “…the miser, the liar and those who are in the habit of abusing people and using obscene and foul language.” (Muslim)

Source: http://www.farhathashmi.com/articles-section/belief-and-introspection/foul-language/

“Truly a man utters words to which he attaches no importance, and by them he falls into the Fire of Jahannam, and truly a man utters words to which he attaches no importance, and by them Allah raises him into the Garden.” (Bukhaari)
Source: Al-Muwatta Of Iman Malik Ibn Ana By Anas

From the cursory checking I've done, these narrations seem to be authentic. Even if, in the worst case scenario "StardustyPsyche" is actually insincere, words such as "filth" etc. should not be used against him by Muslims following Prophet Muhammad's example.
Furthermore, Allah knows best what is in the hearts of people, we are not in a position to make that judgement in this matter.

Regards,

Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2016, 06:28:29 AM »
Absolutely correct Akhi Ahmad

However this guy is not coming here to learn or genuinely inquire

He is like all Hasbara shills here to stir trouble

I been dealing with people like him for more than 10 years now akhi.. i can smell one miles away

If he was sincere, believe me akhi, i'd do my utmost to answer every single question or answer he may bring forth.But he isn't


And Allah knows best

Assalam brother


Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2016, 06:32:58 AM »
Shukran for the reminder akhi, nonetheless

We all need reminders every now and then


Subhan Allah

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2016, 10:19:05 AM »
Brother Dawud,
So, I see you assert that Allah uses an approximation because humans "always" use an approximation.

Very well, if Allah is only approximately correct, I will improve upon his work by using the true approximation, rather than a long decimal that only comes close to the correct number.

I shall precisely truncate the golden ratio in this example
ChapterVersesEvenOddRptNon-Rpt
1101110
29119
38118
47117
56116
6318324318
7809816809
8320328320
9809818809
10322332322
SumSumSumSumSumSum
55261826185516181000

You see that 1618/1000 = 1.618 exactly, so my answer is a better representation of the approximation "always" used. 

Your assertion of the 4 criteria as a miracle is false, because a mere human being has met them herein.





Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2016, 12:13:49 PM »
Now come up with a meaningful Surah with the same equation in mind... Like the one below




Translation:

Surah Al Jinn:

The total number of the Letters in this Noble Surah is 285

This is a multiple of the number 19: 15 x 19 = 285

This Surah ended with Alah SWT saying "Wa Ahsa kulla Shay2en 3adadan": "and has enumerated all things in number." Surah Al Jinn:28


The wondrous thing here is that the total of the repetition of the letters: 3ayn, Da, Da, Alif (ا, د,د, ع) is:

 ع: 37

د: 54

د: 54

ا: 216

The total of the above amounts to 37+54+54"216= 361

Another multiple of 19: 19 x 19 = 361

Every single Ayah of the Surah Al Jinn ended with a specific word: 3ajaba, Ahada, Walada, Shatata...

The marvel here is that the total of the letters of the words (3ajaba, Ahada, Walada, Shatata... etc) is 114

And this number is equal to the number of the Surahs in the Quran and is another multiple of 19: 6 x 19= 114


None could have engineered the Quran but Allah SWT himself



Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2016, 01:09:02 PM »
Brother Ahmad,
"Commenters should refrain from using indecent language for "StardustyPsyche".

I appreciate your kind words.  I have heard much worse then those of Mr. Habbal  :)  It will take a great deal more than a few sporadic words of insult and false assumption on a blog to bother me at all.

But, I suspect you are only partly expressing this out of concern for me.  I think it likely your primary goal is to maintain your own integrity and the integrity of a community you feel a part of.  Fair enough.

You have corrected my apparently false conclusion that you agree there are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an. 

Do you have any specific items you assert are scientific miracles in the Qur'an?  I don't know you very much at all, but at this point I have the impression there is somewhat of a disconnect between your feeling that the Qur'an has scientific miracles, yet I have not noticed a specific assertion of any from you.

Please correct me if I am wrong in your view.


Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2016, 02:08:12 PM »
"None could have engineered the Quran but Allah SWT himself"

There was much time to engineer the Qur'an before the words were written on our earliest surviving example.

It is not difficult to write text, count up letters and words and verses and chapters, then make adjustments in word choice, ordering, and sentence choice to maintain the desired meaning but conform to the numerological wishes of the scribe.

In fact, numerology might explain the haphazard ordering of the Qur'an.

The Qur'an is not in chronological order as I am sure you know.  It is somewhat in reverse chronological order, but there are many exceptions even to that.

It is not even in length order strictly. 

When I engineered the examples that clearly prove the errors of brothers Osama and Dawud I started with something close and then made adjustments as needed to fit the criteria.  One of my techniques was to change the order of entry to produce certain numerical changes that fit my predetermined criteria.

If I can do it so could 7th century man.  I respect the intelligence of ancient men.  Some of them dedicated their lives to the Qur'an, without the distractions of modern life, rather, dedicating thousands upon thousands of hours of recitation, memorization, and study in minute detail.

Shakespeare wrote in iambic pentameter, Japanese write in haiku, and there are many examples globally of humans who craft their words to fit their aesthetic tastes in numerological associations.

You have provided only a few simple multiplication and addition examples.  The only mystery is why anybody would thing for a moment they are miraculous.

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2016, 03:53:23 PM »
Brother Dawud,
I believe I may have applied a different numerological algorithm than the one you specified!

No matter, I solved it with another algorithm, the below entry matches my most recent reading of your algorithm.  That is one of the fascinating things about iterative numerical methods.  One may curve fit using a wide variety of functions and arrive at a solution to the specified degree of accuracy, in this case 3 decimal places.  The solution converges on a different set of coefficients, but is just as valid as any other solution.

Again please note, 1618/1000 = 1.618, an exact representation of the approximation "everybody" uses.


ChapterVersesEvenOddRptNon-Rpt
1222323
2799
3222525
4599
5263131
691515
7283535
851313
9202929
10112121
11389400400
12388400400
13387400400
14386400400
15107122122
16104120120
17177194194
1890108108
19127146146
2098118118
SumSumSumSumSumSum
2102408240821016181000

If you find any errors in my calculations please me know, after all, the ancient men who embedded these numerological arrangements had decades to do so and I just started a couple days ago!

Peace Bro






Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2016, 05:20:49 PM »
Mr. Habbal,
The alternate fly wing antidote Hadith is a scientific miracle?

Yes, of course people laugh at that.  It makes no sense of any kind.  Even brother Osama steers the reader toward the possibility of corrupted Hadiths here:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/hadiths_of_the_fly.htm

Your petri dish nonsense is debunked here:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/01/29/islamic-science-has-come-to-this-pitiful-end/

Other claims of this truly absurd "miracle" are debunked here:
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Diseases_and_Cures_in_the_Wings_of_Houseflies

If your child gets a bacterial infection will you really request the physician to use a fly that has that same pathogen on one wing, extract the antidote from the other wing, and give it to your child to swallow?

Please tell me the name of the Islamic university hospital where this is successfully practiced, and please give me a link to the peer reviewed medical journal article documenting the efficacy of this technique.







Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2016, 06:16:28 PM »
Brother Dawud,
"no it does not, science is empirical , wich means what you see and test that is science, you cant test and do experiment for million of years to prove evolution, so it stay just a theory"

Forensic science is just that, a science.  Actually, all science is done in the past, since light takes a finite time to reach our eyes.  That may seem trivial, but in modern science that fact is actually very important to understanding certain experimental results.

"In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"—part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus creationists can (and do) argue: evolution is "only" a theory", ...

"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts." ...
...from the classic piece by Gould
Evolution as Fact and Theory
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html

If it were impossible to make scientific judgements based on study of past events we could never convict a criminal based on forensic evidence, nor could we do historical research, archeology, or astronomy.  The fact of evolution is seen in scientific study of the past and modern laboratory experiments in chemistry and biology.

I invite you to study the definitions of "scientific fact" and "scientific theory". 

Peace bro






Offline submit

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2016, 08:42:51 PM »

If your child gets a bacterial infection will you really request the physician to use a fly that has that same pathogen on one wing, extract the antidote from the other wing, and give it to your child to swallow?

The hadith is not saying to catch flies and use it as medicine, but if there is a fly in glass, you dont waste the water in the glass but just dip the fly thru. Water can still be used.

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2016, 11:05:25 PM »
submit,
Yes, I realize the Hadith does not explicitly call for the extraction of medicine from the wings of flies.  I am employing argumentum ad absurdum to demonstrate my position.

Here is an example of how a human being gets sick from a fly:
1. Fly lands on animal feces.
2. Feces containing microorganisms harmful to humans but harmless to flies gets stuck to the fly.
3. Fly flies away from animal feces.
4. Fly lands on human food or drink.
5. Animal feces on fly transfers to human food or drink carrying the harmful microorganisms with it.
6. Fly flies away from human food or drink.
7. Human being consumes human food or drink, along with the animal feces and harmful microorganisms transferred in the above steps.
8. Harmful microorganisms invade human being.
9. Harmful microorganisms multiply and the human being becomes infected.

Please consider if we "just dip the fly thru" after step 5 but before step 6.  The only result will be further contamination unless there really is an antidote to the microorganisms on the alternate wing of the fly.

Do you really believe in an antidote on the opposite wing?

If so, then it is reasonable to use the information in this Hadith to cure human infections. 
1. Capture a fly.
2. Test 1 wing for pathogens.
3. If a pathogen is found dip the other wing in a solvent to capture the antidote in solution.
4. Process the dissolved antidote into a deliverable medicine form.
5. Whenever an individual is identified with an infection of the type of pathogen identified in step 2 administer the antidote medicine obtained in step 4.

I have carried this Hadith to its logical conclusions.  If you find these conclusions as absurd as I do then I urge you to do as brother Osama has done and question the validity of this Hadith.











Offline submit

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2016, 12:24:05 AM »
submit,
Yes, I realize the Hadith does not explicitly call for the extraction of medicine from the wings of flies.  I am employing argumentum ad absurdum to demonstrate my position.

Do you really believe in an antidote on the opposite wing?

If so, then it is reasonable to use the information in this Hadith to cure human infections. 
1. Capture a fly.
2. Test 1 wing for pathogens.
3. If a pathogen is found dip the other wing in a solvent to capture the antidote in solution.
4. Process the dissolved antidote into a deliverable medicine form.
5. Whenever an individual is identified with an infection of the type of pathogen identified in step 2 administer the antidote medicine obtained in step 4.

You said you realized but then you do not realize what you post. There is no need to capture it. Reread the hadith. Its also not about looking for sick patients after the act of dipping the fly. Hope this will aid in your logical assessment of the hadith.

Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #74 on: January 16, 2016, 07:39:29 AM »
Brother Dawud,
I believe I may have applied a different numerological algorithm than the one you specified!

No matter, I solved it with another algorithm, the below entry matches my most recent reading of your algorithm.  That is one of the fascinating things about iterative numerical methods.  One may curve fit using a wide variety of functions and arrive at a solution to the specified degree of accuracy, in this case 3 decimal places.  The solution converges on a different set of coefficients, but is just as valid as any other solution.

Again please note, 1618/1000 = 1.618, an exact representation of the approximation "everybody" uses.


ChapterVersesEvenOddRptNon-Rpt
1222323
2799
3222525
4599
5263131
691515
7283535
851313
9202929
10112121
11389400400
12388400400
13387400400
14386400400
15107122122
16104120120
17177194194
1890108108
19127146146
2098118118
SumSumSumSumSumSum
2102408240821016181000

If you find any errors in my calculations please me know, after all, the ancient men who embedded these numerological arrangements had decades to do so and I just started a couple days ago!

Peace Bro

you have now succeeded programming chapter-verse-odd-even and golden ratio, good

but that is not all man, yo uthink you have already matched quran that was only easy part, now comes more difficult part wich will rape your mind

you have to syncronaise naumbers with that programming and that numberse are symetrical


look this now


What is symmetri?

Symmetri, Yes

15--16--I--16--15 or 17--17--I--14--14

Symmetri, NO

15--16--I--17--15 or this 16--14--I--7--9


Quran is symmetrical book


Odd and Even numbers
Odd and Even numbers

(Sequence number of Chapter)-(Verses)

4 combination:

odd-odd
odd-even
even-even
even-odd


example first chapter Fatiha has sequence number 1 and 7 verses,
then it is in ODD-ODD section

Look how Quran is constructed
symmetrically, Amazing



Homogenus are ODD-ODD, EVEN-EVEN

Non-homogenus are odd-even, even-odd

It is also
constructed simmetrically



Now we divide Quran in half,
first part of quran 57 chapters, and second part quran 57 chapters

even
this is also symetrical between homogenus and non-homogenus


Surahs of which the number of ayats are greater than sequence number




Surahs of which the number of ayats are smaller than sequence number




Sequence Numbers Set and Number of Ayats Set
example: Chapter/Surah with sequence nr 3, nr of ayats/verses 3 can be found at seequence nr 108 and 110




The numbers which are divided by two and not divided by three



The numbers which are divided by three and not divided by two



The numbers which are neither divisible by two nor by three



and i you succeed with this wich i doubt you will, await something even greater than all of this.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 11:05:14 PM by QuranSearchCom »