Author Topic: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an  (Read 59643 times)

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Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #75 on: January 16, 2016, 10:39:34 AM »
Question to arabic speakers

what does this two words mean

fromverse
76:28
نَحْنُ خَلَقْنَاهُمْ وَشَدَدْنَا أَسْرَهُمْ ۖ وَإِذَا شِئْنَا بَدَّلْنَا أَمْثَالَهُمْ تَبْدِيلًاِ
washadadna asrahum

does it mean
 We strengthened their form

some translate it like this


We created them and fixed their bones and joints;

We created them and made their joints strong,

We created them and made their joints firm,

We created them, and We strengthened their joints;

We created them and strengthened their joints;

Why do they translate joints, is asrahum (their joints) or ???

why do i ask this beacuse

from the begining of the Chapter Insan (Human)

to the word (We strengthened their joints / We trengthened their form) there is 206 words

and we know today that humans have 206 bones in their body

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bones_of_the_human_skeleton
The skeleton of an adult human consists of 206 bones. It is composed of 270 bones at birth, which decreases to 206 bones by adulthood after some bones have fused together

The 206 Bones of the Human Body
http://www.cs.rpi.edu/~kleine/anatomy/bones.html

http://www.ivyroses.com/HumanBody/Skeletal/how-many-bones-in-the-human-body.php
There are 206 named bones a normal, complete, adult human skeleton.

evidence

Hal ata AAala alinsani heenun mina alddahri lam yakun shayan mathkooran
Inna khalaqna alinsana min nutfatin amshajin nabtaleehi fajaAAalnahu sameeAAan baseeran
Inna hadaynahu alssabeela imma shakiran waimma kafooran
Inna aAAtadna lilkafireena salasila waaghlalan wasaAAeeran
Inna alabrara yashraboona min kasin kana mizajuha kafooran
AAaynan yashrabu biha AAibadu Allahi yufajjiroonaha tafjeeran
Yoofoona bialnnathri wayakhafoona yawman kana sharruhu mustateeran
WayutAAimona alttaAAama AAala hubbihi miskeenan wayateeman waaseeran
Innama nutAAimukum liwajhi Allahi la nureedu minkum jazaan wala shukooran
Inna nakhafu min rabbina yawman AAaboosan qamtareeran
Fawaqahumu Allahu sharra thalika alyawmi walaqqahum nadratan wasurooran
Wajazahum bima sabaroo jannatan wahareeran
Muttakieena feeha AAala alaraiki la yarawna feeha shamsan wala zamhareeran
Wadaniyatan AAalayhim thilaluha wathullilat qutoofuha tathleelan
Wayutafu AAalayhim bianiyatin min fiddatin waakwabin kanat qawareera
Qawareera min fiddatin qaddarooha taqdeeran
Wayusqawna feeha kasan kana mizajuha zanjabeelan
AAaynan feeha tusamma salsabeelan
Wayatoofu AAalayhim wildanun mukhalladoona itha raaytahum hasibtahum luluan manthooran
Waitha raayta thamma raayta naAAeeman wamulkan kabeeran
AAaliyahum thiyabu sundusin khudrun waistabraqun wahulloo asawira min fiddatin wasaqahum rabbuhum sharaban tahooran
Inna hatha kana lakum jazaan wakana saAAyukum mashkooran
Inna nahnu nazzalna AAalayka alqurana tanzeelan
Faisbir lihukmi rabbika wala tutiAA minhum athiman aw kafooran
Waothkuri isma rabbika bukratan waaseelan
Wamina allayli faosjud lahu wasabbihhu laylan taweelan
Inna haolai yuhibboona alAAajilata wayatharoona waraahum yawman thaqeelan
Nahnu khalaqnahum


copy this and you will get 206 words to the word washadadna (we strengthened)

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #76 on: January 16, 2016, 10:40:39 AM »
I have conclusively proved that the claim of a miracle made by brother Osama is false and should be removed from his posted claims.

I have no independent means to verify your latest asserted set of relationships even exits, and I have no intention of counting verses in the Qur'an myself.

To work on your latest set of "miraculous" criteria I would need in text form a summary of all the data cited, preferably in .xls or .csv form.  If you could clearly and concisely list in text form all the relations of all the components you wish to engineer into your "miracle" I can work on it over time.

My assertion stands, that there are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an, and the asserted numerological associations are within the capability of 7th century man to engineer into the texts.

Oh, but I did another solution!  This time I duplicated the exact numbers of the so called golden ratio supposedly created in code by Allah.  And I can assure you, I am not Allah, yet I produced these numbers.  There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an


ChapterVersesEvenOddRptNon-Rpt
1161717
2799
3161919
4599
5202525
691515
7283535
851313
9202929
10196219721972
11196119721972
12196019721972
13195919721972
14110411181118
15117711921192
16109011061106
17112711441144
18154172172
SumSumSumSumSumSum
171126201262017179064885










Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #77 on: January 16, 2016, 10:54:35 AM »
I have conclusively proved that the claim of a miracle made by brother Osama is false and should be removed from his posted claims.

I have no independent means to verify your latest asserted set of relationships even exits, and I have no intention of counting verses in the Qur'an myself.

To work on your latest set of "miraculous" criteria I would need in text form a summary of all the data cited, preferably in .xls or .csv form.  If you could clearly and concisely list in text form all the relations of all the components you wish to engineer into your "miracle" I can work on it over time.

My assertion stands, that there are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an, and the asserted numerological associations are within the capability of 7th century man to engineer into the texts.

Oh, but I did another solution!  This time I duplicated the exact numbers of the so called golden ratio supposedly created in code by Allah.  And I can assure you, I am not Allah, yet I produced these numbers.  There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an


ChapterVersesEvenOddRptNon-Rpt
1161717
2799
3161919
4599
5202525
691515
7283535
851313
9202929
10196219721972
11196119721972
12196019721972
13195919721972
14110411181118
15117711921192
16109011061106
17112711441144
18154172172
SumSumSumSumSumSum
171126201262017179064885

then you are a liar in that case to deny obvious facts from verses and hadith, yo uactually lie to yourself.

here is another challenge for you, let see how you will manage to challenge it



to verify this use this calulator
http://web2.0calc.com/

« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 11:07:10 PM by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #78 on: January 16, 2016, 11:28:41 AM »
Always save your ammo for later..

Here is your debunking debunked.

P.S: i did not insult you. simply called you for what you really are. A Hasbara shill. A shekel per post agent :) Fair?



Ugly but useful: The sheep blowfly is one of the fly species that might provide humans with New Antibiotics.

The surface of flies is the last place you would expect to find antibiotics, yet that is exactly where a team of Australian researchers is concentrating their efforts.

Working on the theory that flies must have remarkable antimicrobial defences to survive rotting dung, meat and fruit, the team at the Department of Biological Sciences, Macquarie University, set out to identify those antibacterial properties manifesting at different stages of a fly's development.

"Our research is a small part of a global research effort for new antibiotics, but we are looking where we believe no-one has looked before," said Ms Joanne Clarke, who presented the group's findings at the Australian Society for Microbiology Conference in Melbourne this week. The project is part of her PhD thesis.

The scientists tested four different species of fly: a house fly, a sheep blowfly, a vinegar fruit fly and the control, a Queensland fruit fly which lays its eggs in fresh fruit. These larvae do not need as much antibacterial compound because they do not come into contact with as much bacteria.

Flies go through the life stages of larvae and pupae before becoming adults. In the pupae stage, the fly is encased in a protective casing and does not feed. "We predicted they would not produce many antibiotics," said Ms Clarke.

They did not. However the larvae all showed antibacterial properties (except that of the Queensland fruit fly control).

As did all the adult fly species, including the Queensland fruit fly (which at this point requires antibacterial protection because it has contact with other flies and is mobile).

Such properties were present on the fly surface in all four species, although antibacterial properties occur in the gut as well. "You find activity in both places," said Ms Clarke.

"The reason we concentrated on the surface is because it is a simpler extraction."

The antibiotic material is extracted by drowning the flies in ethanol, then running the mixture through a filter to obtain the crude extract.

When this was placed in a solution with various bacteria including E.coli, Golden Staph, Candida (a yeast) and a common hospital pathogen, antibiotic action was observed every time.

"We are now trying to identify the specific antibacterial compounds," said Ms Clarke. Ultimately these will be chemically synthesised.

Because the compounds are not from bacteria, any genes conferring resistance to them may not be as easily transferred into pathogens. It is hoped this new form of antibiotics will have a longer effective therapeutic life.

CHUTNEY

And that's not where it stops... there is MOAR Big Grin from other research centers.

Antibacterial action of Myiasis-causing flies.


Erdmann GR.
Department of Pharmacy Practice, College of Pharmacy, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, MN 55455, USA.

Some species of calliphorid blowflies lay their eggs in wounds; their larvae develop by feeding on the tissue, and the infection is known as myiasis or fly-strike. But wounds, from whatever cause, are frequently contaminated with bacteria - many o f which can spread in the bloodstream causing septicaemia and/or toxaemia. For example, wound contamination with Clostridium welchii - leading to 'gas gangrene' - was a frequent cause of death amongst battlefield casualties. It is from such situations that early observations were made on the beneficial effect of some blowfly larvae in limiting the bacterial infection of wounds. Indeed, some military surgeons would deliberately infest wounds with blowfly maggots in order to prevent bacterial complications. Now, a century or two later, the search for new antibiotics had led researchers back to these early observations, and in this article, Gory Erdmann describes progress in understanding the antibacterial action of blowfly maggots.

PMID: 15462958 [PubMed]

RAITA

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...1000001517

Oh and MOAR yet again...

"Brazilian Journal of Microbiology
Print version ISSN 1517-8382
Braz. J. Microbiol. vol.39 no.2 São Paulo Apr./June 2008
doi: 10.1590/S1517-83822008000200035

VETERINARY MICROBIOLOGY

Antibacterial activities of multi drug resistant Myroides odoratimimus bacteria isolated from adult flesh flies (Diptera: Sarcophagidae) are independent of metallo beta-lactamase gene"

GRAVY

And there is more, but check the links out, and let me know what you think?

NOW - IS THIS MIND BLOWING OR WHAT?

This Hadeeth has been proven by NON MUSLIM SCIENTISTS and BIOLOGISTS.

As you can read above.


Sorry here i come yet again to burst your bubble


You are just lying to yourself and making me laugh in the process

How did Sayyidna Muhamad know that fact 1500 years ago?

Right... you can't answer

I thought so



I repeat when it comes to the Quran... None could have engineered the Quran but Allah



Shaloooooom :)



Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2016, 12:22:50 PM »
"NOW - IS THIS MIND BLOWING OR WHAT?"
No, not mind blowing.

"This Hadeeth has been proven by NON MUSLIM SCIENTISTS and BIOLOGISTS."
No, the Hadith asserts a pathogen on 1 wing and and antidote on the other wing.  All the above fails to support the alternate wing prediction.

No, it is not mind blowing that medicines are made from extracts of living things.  That's what penicillin, aspirin, and many other drugs are.

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #80 on: January 16, 2016, 12:44:28 PM »
Brother Osama asserts that 36:38 is some kind of miracle.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

In fact it is plainly obvious.  Just look up in the sky during the day!  “The sun runs a course for a time to a fixed resting place.”
How can any reasonable person consider that to somehow be a miracle?  That is just a crude and erroneous description of the obvious.
The sun does not rest, it just seems to at sunset.
The sunset point is not fixed, rather it changes each day.
The sun was thought to orbit the Earth in those days, which is a far simpler explanation for the words than an asserted miracle of predicted galactic orbit.

Here is 36:38
Chapter (36) sūrat yā sīn
Sahih International: And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.
Pickthall: And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
Yusuf Ali: And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.
Shakir: And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.
Muhammad Sarwar: how the sun moves in its orbit and this is the decree of the Majestic and All-knowing God;
Mohsin Khan: And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.
Arberry: And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing.

Brother Osama cites these verses
32:5, 34:2, 57:4, 70:3-4

Here is 32:5
Chapter (32) sūrat l-sajdah (The Prostration)
Sahih International: He arranges [each] matter from the heaven to the earth; then it will ascend to Him in a Day, the extent of which is a thousand years of those which you count.
Pickthall: He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon.
Yusuf Ali: He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning.
Shakir: He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count.
Muhammad Sarwar: He sends the regulation of the affair from the heavens to the earth, then on the day which is equal to one thousand years of yours, it will ascend to Him.
Mohsin Khan: He arranges (every) affair from the heavens to the earth, then it (affair) will go up to Him, in one Day, the space whereof is a thousand years of your reckoning (i.e. reckoning of our present world's time).
Arberry: He directs the affair from heaven to earth, then it goes up to Him in one day, whose measure is a thousand years of your counting.

Here is 34:2
Chapter (34) sūrat saba (Sheba)
Sahih International: He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what ascends therein. And He is the Merciful, the Forgiving.
Pickthall: He knoweth that which goeth into the earth and that which cometh forth from it, and that descendeth from the heaven and that which ascendeth into it. He is the Merciful, the Forgiving.
Yusuf Ali: He knows all that goes into the earth, and all that comes out thereof; all that comes down from the sky and all that ascends thereto and He is the Most Merciful, the Oft-Forgiving.
Shakir: He knows that which goes down into the earth and that which comes out of it, and that which comes down from the heaven and that which goes up to it; and He is the Merciful, the Forgiving.
Muhammad Sarwar: He knows all that enters the earth, all that comes out of it, all that descends from the sky and all that ascends to it. He is All-merciful and All-forgiving.
Mohsin Khan: He knows that which goes into the earth and that which comes forth from it, and that which descend from the heaven and that which ascends to it. And He is the Most Merciful, the OftForgiving.
Arberry: He knows what penetrates into the earth, and what comes forth from it, what comes down from heaven, and what goes up to it; He is the All-compassionate, the All-forgiving.

Here is 57:4
Chapter (57) sūrat l-ḥadīd (The Iron)
Sahih International: It is He who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne. He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what ascends therein; and He is with you wherever you are. And Allah , of what you do, is Seeing.
Pickthall: He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days; then He mounted the Throne. He knoweth all that entereth the earth and all that emergeth therefrom and all that cometh down from the sky and all that ascendeth therein; and He is with you wheresoever ye may be. And Allah is Seer of what ye do.
Yusuf Ali: He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days, and is moreover firmly established on the Throne (of Authority). He knows what enters within the earth and what comes forth out of it, what comes down from heaven and what mounts up to it. And He is with you wheresoever ye may be. And Allah sees well all that ye do.
Shakir: He it is who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firm in power; He knows that which goes deep down into the earth and that which comes forth out of it, and that which comes down from the heaven and that which goes up into it, and He is with you wherever you are; and Allah sees what you do.
Muhammad Sarwar: It is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then established His Dominion over the Throne. He knows whatever enters into the earth, what comes out of it, what descends from the sky, and what ascends to it. He is with you wherever you may be and He is Well Aware of what you do.
Mohsin Khan: He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then Istawa (rose over) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). He knows what goes into the earth and what comes forth from it, what descends from the heaven and what ascends thereto. And He is with you (by His Knowledge) wheresoever you may be. And Allah is the All-Seer of what you do.
Arberry: It is He that created the heavens and the earth in six days then seated Himself upon the Throne. He knows what penetrates into the earth, and what comes forth from it, -- what comes down from heaven, and what goes up unto it. He is with you wherever you are; and God sees the things you do.

Here is 70:3
Chapter (70) sūrat l-maʿārij (The Ways of Ascent)
Sahih International: [It is] from Allah , owner of the ways of ascent.
Pickthall: From Allah, Lord of the Ascending Stairways
Yusuf Ali: (A Penalty) from Allah, Lord of the Ways of Ascent.
Shakir: From Allah, the Lord of the ways of Ascent.
Muhammad Sarwar: No one can defend him against God, the Lord of the exalted positions.
Mohsin Khan: From Allah, the Lord of the ways of ascent.
Arberry: from God, the Lord of the Stairways.

Here is 70:4
Chapter (70) sūrat l-maʿārij (The Ways of Ascent)
Sahih International: The angels and the Spirit will ascend to Him during a Day the extent of which is fifty thousand years.
Pickthall: (Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years.
Yusuf Ali: The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years:
Shakir: To Him ascend the angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.
Muhammad Sarwar: On that Day (of Judgment), long as fifty thousand years, the angels and the Spirit will ascend to Him.
Mohsin Khan: The angels and the Ruh [Jibrael (Gabriel)] ascend to Him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years,
Arberry: To Him the angels and the Spirit mount up, in a day whereof the measure is fifty thousand years.


Brothers, where is the scientific miracle in all that?

Those verses are just meandering words asserting thrones and angels and spirits and stairways.  Not a bit of “scientific miracle” in any of it.

A day is either a day, or 1000 years, or 50,000 years.  So, according to the Qur’an, the universe and the Earth was created in either 6 days, 6000 years, or 300,000 years.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong, science tells us.

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an.



Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #81 on: January 16, 2016, 04:57:40 PM »
Brother Osama asserts that 36:38 is some kind of miracle.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

In fact it is plainly obvious.  Just look up in the sky during the day!  “The sun runs a course for a time to a fixed resting place.”
How can any reasonable person consider that to somehow be a miracle?  That is just a crude and erroneous description of the obvious.
The sun does not rest, it just seems to at sunset.
The sunset point is not fixed, rather it changes each day.
The sun was thought to orbit the Earth in those days, which is a far simpler explanation for the words than an asserted miracle of predicted galactic orbit.

Brothers, where is the scientific miracle in all that?

Those verses are just meandering words asserting thrones and angels and spirits and stairways.  Not a bit of “scientific miracle” in any of it.

A day is either a day, or 1000 years, or 50,000 years.  So, according to the Qur’an, the universe and the Earth was created in either 6 days, 6000 years, or 300,000 years.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong, science tells us.

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an.


Quote
“The sun runs a course for a time to a fixed resting place.”
How can any reasonable person consider that to somehow be a miracle?  That is just a crude and erroneous description of the obvious.
The sun does not rest, it just seems to at sunset.
The sunset point is not fixed, rather it changes each day.
The sun was thought to orbit the Earth in those days, which is a far simpler explanation for the words than an asserted miracle of predicted galactic orbit.

this only shows how weak your understanding of science and quran is

quran says that sun moves in space, that is a scientific fact, (remeber quran never say it moves around the earth)

look what science say about it

Sun's orbit around milky way galaxy in the Quran
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faJtnF3W8mc
see here how sun moves in space

Quote
The sun does not rest,

what does it mean sun resting place



THE SUN WILL EXPIRE AFTER SOME TIME

And the sun runs to a fixed resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. (Surah Ya Sin, 38)

The Sun has been emitting heat for around 5 billion years as a result of the constant chemical reactions taking place on its surface. At a moment determined by Allah in the future, these reactions will eventually come to an end, and the Sun will lose all its energy and finally go out. In that context, the above verse may be a reference to the Sun’s energy one day coming to an end. (Allah knows the truth.)

The Arabic word "mustaqarrin" in the verse refers to a particular place or time. The word “tajree,” translated as “runs,” bears such meanings as “to move, to act swiftly, to move about, to flow.” It appears from the meanings of the words that the Sun will continue in its course in time and space, but that this motion will continue until a specific, predetermined time.  The verse " When the Sun is compacted in blackness " (Surat at-Takwir, 1) which appears in descriptions of Doomsday, tells us that such a time will be coming. The specific timing is known only to Allah.

The Arabic word "taqdeeru," translated as “decree” in the verse, includes such meanings as “to appoint, to determine the destiny of something, to measure.” By this expression in verse 38 of Surah Ya Sin we are told that the life span of the Sun is limited to a specific period, one ordained by Allah. Other verses of the Qur’an on the subject read:

Allah is He Who raised up the heavens without any support – you can see that – and then established Himself firmly on the Throne. He made the Sun and Moon subservient, each running for a specified term. He directs the whole affair. He makes the Signs clear so that hopefully you will be certain about the meeting with your Lord. (Surat ar- Ra‘d, 2)

He makes night merge into day and day merge into night, and He has made the Sun and Moon subservient, each one running until a specified time. That is Allah, your Lord. The Kingdom is His. Those you call on besides Him have no power over even the smallest speck. (Surah Fatir, 13)

He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient, each one running for a specified term. Is He not indeed the Almighty, the Endlessly Forgiving? (Surah az-Zumar, 5)

The use of the word "musamman" in the above verses shows that the life span of the Sun will run for a “specified term.” Scientific analysis regarding the end of the Sun describes it as each second, 4 million tons of matter are converted into energy 1 , and says that the Sun will die when that fuel has all been consumed. 2 The heat and light emitted from the Sun is the energy released as matter is consumed as hydrogen nuclei turn into helium in the nuclear fusion process. The Sun’s energy, and therefore its life, will thus come to an end once this fuel has been used up. (Allah knows the truth.) A report titled “The Death of the Sun” by the BBC News Science Department says:

...The Sun will gradually die. As a star's core crashes inwards, it eventually becomes hot enough to ignite another of its constituent atoms, helium. Helium atoms fuse together to form carbon. When the helium supply runs out, the centre collapses again and the atmosphere inflates. The Sun isn't massive enough to fully re-ignite its core for a third time. So it goes on expanding, shedding its atmosphere in a series of bursts... The dying core eventually forms a white dwarf - a spherical diamond the size of the Earth, made of carbon and oxygen. From this point on the Sun will gradually fade away, becoming dimmer and dimmer until its light is finally snuffed out. 3

A documentary, also called “The Death of the Sun,” broadcast by National Geographic TV, provides the following description:

It generates heat and sustains life on our planet. But like humans, the sun has a limited lifespan. As our star ages, it will become hotter and expand, evaporating all of our oceans and killing all life on planet Earth... The sun will get hotter as it ages and burns fuel faster. Temperatures will increase, eventually wiping out animal life, evaporating our oceans and killing all plant life... the sun will swell and become a red giant star, swallowing up the nearest planets. Its gravitational pull will lessen and perhaps allow Earth to escape. By the end, it will shrink into a white dwarf star, emitting a week glow... 4

Scientists have only recently unravelled the structure of the Sun and discovered what goes on inside it. Before that, nobody knew how the Sun obtained its energy or how it emitted heat and light. The way that such a giant mass of energy would one day consume all its energy and expire was revealed 1,400 years ago in the Qur’an shows the presence of a sublime knowledge. That knowledge belongs to our Lord, Whose knowledge enfolds all things. Another verse of the Qur’an reveals:

"... My Lord encompasses all things in His knowledge so will you not pay heed?” (Surat Al-An‘am, 80)

1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun

2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun

3 http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/stars/death/index.shtml

4 "Death of the Sun", National Geographic Channel, 20 March 2006, director: Rabinder Minhas,part no. 25, season 3.



Quote
A day is either a day, or 1000 years, or 50,000 years.  So, according to the Qur’an, the universe and the Earth was created in either 6 days, 6000 years, or 300,000 years.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong, science tells us.

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an.

no, yewm can mean day 24h, and it can also mean a period wich is longer, much longer than our day.

to God is 1 day as our 1000 years

on judgment day, that day will be 50 000 years long. and by the way, do you knkow any thing about theory of relativity, where time is relevative, it is not fixed.

universe and earth was created in 6 periods not our (24h) days

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #82 on: January 16, 2016, 05:30:49 PM »
“quran says that sun moves in space”
Where?  What is the chapter and verse?

“raised up the heavens without any support – you can see that”
Yes, just go outside at night, there is nothing apparently holding up the “heavens”.  How obvious.  How is that supposed to be some kind of scientific miracle?

“He directs the whole affair.”
There is nothing scientific about that, it is a mere assertion of divine powers, just like thousands of other assertions made by all the other imagined gods.

"... My Lord encompasses all things in His knowledge so will you not pay heed?”
Again, there is nothing scientific about that, it is a mere assertion of divine powers.

“no, yewm can mean day 24h, and it can also mean a period wich is longer, much longer than our day.
to God is 1 day as our 1000 years
on judgment day, that day will be 50 000 years long. and by the way, do you knkow any thing about theory of relativity, where time is relevative, it is not fixed.
universe and earth was created in 6 periods not our (24h) days”
Right, 1 Allah day is 1000 Earth years.
6 Allah days is 6000 Earth years.
That makes the Qur’an scientifically false when it says creation was accomplished in 6 days, or 6000 years, or even if you call it 300,000 years.
1 day, 6000 years, 300,000 years are all scientifically false.
The Qur’an is scientifically false on this point.

Now, if you want to say a “period” an undetermined length of time then that is no miracle.

So is the Qur’an scientifically mistaken or simply lacking in any scientific miracles?

Offline Dawud

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #83 on: January 16, 2016, 05:31:34 PM »
Question to arabic speakers

what does this two words mean

fromverse
76:28
نَحْنُ خَلَقْنَاهُمْ وَشَدَدْنَا أَسْرَهُمْ ۖ وَإِذَا شِئْنَا بَدَّلْنَا أَمْثَالَهُمْ تَبْدِيلًاِ
washadadna asrahum

does it mean
 We strengthened their form

some translate it like this


We created them and fixed their bones and joints;

We created them and made their joints strong,

We created them and made their joints firm,

We created them, and We strengthened their joints;

We created them and strengthened their joints;

Why do they translate joints, is asrahum (their joints) or ???

why do i ask this beacuse

from the begining of the Chapter Insan (Human)

to the word (We strengthened their joints / We trengthened their form) there is 206 words

and we know today that humans have 206 bones in their body

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bones_of_the_human_skeleton
The skeleton of an adult human consists of 206 bones. It is composed of 270 bones at birth, which decreases to 206 bones by adulthood after some bones have fused together

The 206 Bones of the Human Body
http://www.cs.rpi.edu/~kleine/anatomy/bones.html

http://www.ivyroses.com/HumanBody/Skeletal/how-many-bones-in-the-human-body.php
There are 206 named bones a normal, complete, adult human skeleton.

evidence

Hal ata AAala alinsani heenun mina alddahri lam yakun shayan mathkooran
Inna khalaqna alinsana min nutfatin amshajin nabtaleehi fajaAAalnahu sameeAAan baseeran
Inna hadaynahu alssabeela imma shakiran waimma kafooran
Inna aAAtadna lilkafireena salasila waaghlalan wasaAAeeran
Inna alabrara yashraboona min kasin kana mizajuha kafooran
AAaynan yashrabu biha AAibadu Allahi yufajjiroonaha tafjeeran
Yoofoona bialnnathri wayakhafoona yawman kana sharruhu mustateeran
WayutAAimona alttaAAama AAala hubbihi miskeenan wayateeman waaseeran
Innama nutAAimukum liwajhi Allahi la nureedu minkum jazaan wala shukooran
Inna nakhafu min rabbina yawman AAaboosan qamtareeran
Fawaqahumu Allahu sharra thalika alyawmi walaqqahum nadratan wasurooran
Wajazahum bima sabaroo jannatan wahareeran
Muttakieena feeha AAala alaraiki la yarawna feeha shamsan wala zamhareeran
Wadaniyatan AAalayhim thilaluha wathullilat qutoofuha tathleelan
Wayutafu AAalayhim bianiyatin min fiddatin waakwabin kanat qawareera
Qawareera min fiddatin qaddarooha taqdeeran
Wayusqawna feeha kasan kana mizajuha zanjabeelan
AAaynan feeha tusamma salsabeelan
Wayatoofu AAalayhim wildanun mukhalladoona itha raaytahum hasibtahum luluan manthooran
Waitha raayta thamma raayta naAAeeman wamulkan kabeeran
AAaliyahum thiyabu sundusin khudrun waistabraqun wahulloo asawira min fiddatin wasaqahum rabbuhum sharaban tahooran
Inna hatha kana lakum jazaan wakana saAAyukum mashkooran
Inna nahnu nazzalna AAalayka alqurana tanzeelan
Faisbir lihukmi rabbika wala tutiAA minhum athiman aw kafooran
Waothkuri isma rabbika bukratan waaseelan
Wamina allayli faosjud lahu wasabbihhu laylan taweelan
Inna haolai yuhibboona alAAajilata wayatharoona waraahum yawman thaqeelan
Nahnu khalaqnahum


copy this and you will get 206 words to the word washadadna (we strengthened)

answer

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #84 on: January 16, 2016, 07:31:15 PM »
We created man from an extract of clay.  Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed.  Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance).. (Quran, 23:12-14)

“We created man from an extract of clay. “
No, man did not come from clay.  Science tells us man evolved from lower primates.

“We made him as a drop”
A drop of what, semen?  How obvious.  It was well known that semen is necessary to reproduction in humans.

“in a place of settlement”
Semen can’t go too far once it is inside a vagina, now can it?  Actually it doesn’t settle, it mixes with the woman’s own fluids.

“We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot),”
Obviously a crude description of the products of miscarriage.  When a woman has an miscarriage it looks vaguly like a leech or a blood clot.  Of course it is neither, so the verse is mistaken, but it is crudely description of the products of miscarriage.  The cord makes a baby a "suspended thing", how obvious.

“We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)”
Again the words are factually incorrect, we do not come from a chewed substance.  But this is just another crude description of the products of miscarriage.

The Qur’an offers only obvious observations, crude descriptions available to 7th century man, or outright errors.

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an


Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #85 on: January 16, 2016, 11:12:51 PM »
I apologise beforehand for any unintentional mistakes that I may make in the following posts.

@Brother Osama,
I appreciate the link, it provided me with possible refutations to the claims of some Islam critics.

@StardustyPsyche,
I stayed away from commenting because I don’t believe there is much I can do to convince you.

-   “… I did not notice you make any specific claims of a scientific miracle in the Qur'an.”

Merriam-Webster Dictionary: “An extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment”
Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/miracle

I belong to the group of Muslims who believe that the primary “miraculous” thing about the Qur’an, in the context of Science, is that modern science sustains the claims made in the Qur’an and does not contradict them. From what I know, no ancient text does that. The individual “scientific” claims are of a secondary nature because the Qur’an was never claimed to be a book of Science but rather a book of “signs”. For some people they are enough to validate Islam and for others, at the very least, they serve as points of interest or curiosity to make people perform deeper research into the religion.

-   “What is a scientific miracle in an ancient text?
First let me say what it is not:
A statement that could have been a simple observation available at that time…”

Who is to say what was a “simple observation” and what wasn’t? This is an especially subjective requirement. If it cannot be proven or disproven that a particular statement was a “simple observation”, the next step is to determine how likely it would’ve been for a person to make that “simple observation”. The discussion becomes a matter of probabilities.
As I mentioned before, all life created from water is not a simple observation. The observation that species known to 7th century humans, required water to survive does not naturally lead to the claim that all life is created from water.

-   “… A vague statement that is open to multiple interpretations as may be conveniently fit into facts found out later, as is commonly a tactic used by so called psychics…”
All living things are created from water, as I mentioned before, this is not a vague statement. From what I understand, probably the only two things it can mean is that either all living things have water as a constituent of their physical bodies or in some distant past water, probably along with some other constituents, was the starting point of life. The former point is proved by the existence of water in all living cells, the later possibility is something, if I understand correctly, the theory of evolution indirectly states (I’m among those Muslims who don’t see Islamic doctrine to be contradicting evolution, at-least not unequivocally).

Just in case, you still try to argue that this particular claim is vague, you will be committing the Special Pleading fallacy because you had no problem with its “vagueness” when you were trying to push it as a scientific mistake in the Qur’an. In other words, it would mean that the Qur’an is only vague when it confirms Science but not when it appears to contradict it.

-   “… Statements that are incorrect in their most direct meaning and can at most be considered possible if a very broad interpretation is used…”
What exactly is the “most direct meaning”? Again a very subjective requirement. If Islamic traditions are cherry-picked then I’m sure hundreds of “contradictions” can be found. This is not a fault with the Qur’an but with the subjective reasoning of the people trying to interpret it with their recognized or unrecognized biases.
As with the water example, the “most direct meaning” for some people is indeed a scientific mistake but for students of critical reasoning and logical arguments fallacies, it isn’t.

-   “… A statement written as a prediction but actually addressing events prior the writing of the earliest extant copy of the alleged prediction.”
This requirement has more to do with subjectivity in the present context than to being an objective requirement in all situations. The non-existence of the first copies of the Qur’an today does not mean that the Qur’an simply didn’t exist in that time. For example, if two editions of a book come out with a difference of a decade and after some time all the first editions are lost or destroyed and only the second edition remains in circulation it would be a fallacious argument to claim that the first edition never existed or that the author’s ideas belonged to the time of the second edition and not the first.

One has to have extensive knowledge on this issue before he/she can claim that the Qur’an came after the predicted events. Numerous arguments have been made in support of the concept of preservation of the Qur’an. A huge amount of literature has been penned down regarding it, so I won’t get into that. I will just quote Assistant Professor Joseph E. B. Lumbard on this:

Quote
…For the Sana’a manuscripts, it reveals occasional variations in the ordering of the sūrahs (or chapters) of the Quran, and slight variations in reading that correspond to the variations that had been preserved in the extensive Islamic material detailing variant readings of the Quran. But all of these variations had already been and recorded in the Islamic historiographical tradition. In other words, analysis of the “under text” confirms the accuracy of early Islamic historiography.
This changes the field of Quranic Studies because it provides empirical support for the accuracy of the traditional Islamic accounts that many western scholars have previously claimed to be anachronistic and unreliable, such as the existence of variant manuscripts of the Quran before the collation of the text in 650. Furthermore, statistical analysis of the variants within the earliest manuscripts suggests that the final version that came to be the accepted text of the Quran “is overall a better reproduction of the common source.” Even minor textual variations that were reported by early Islamic scholars and transmitted in the Quranic commentary tradition find substantiation in the “under text” of the earliest manuscripts of the Quran.
In addition, recent studies have demonstrated that the earliest Islamic literature on variant readings of the Quran is for the most part reliable and that the historicity of the received data is, as Michael Cook of Princeton University observes, “a testimony to the continuing accuracy of the transmission of the variants.” Such findings correspond with the most recent anthropological studies that confirm the historical reliability of oral transmission traditions.”
Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-e-b-lumbard/new-light-on-the-history-_b_7864930.html

When you later on forwarded the idea that the Qur’an might not have been preserved, I was kind of astonished that, the reasoning you gave for this assertion is that this is a circular reasoning. Seriously? Do you actually believe that the only reason –  billions of Muslims throughout the centuries have, and still do, believe in the preservation of the Qur’an –  is just because the Qur’an says so?
As I said above, a huge amount of literature and scholarly work has been done on this, go through that before flat out rejecting things.

-   “… A numerological association that could have been intentionally constructed by human beings deeply dedicated to such a task.”

As I mentioned before, pretty much any numerical association that can be discovered can be claimed to have been intentionally inserted by humans, there isn’t much that can be done about that. In such cases, it becomes a matter of how likely such a happening was, in which case a higher level of understanding of surrounding factors is important. The ones I’ve mentioned already in addition to several others, in my opinion point towards these associations being: “An extremely outstanding or unusual event”.

Additionally, as Brother Osama pointed out the present Qur’anic text that has been used to calculate these numerical associations didn’t exist fourteen centuries ago. How could’ve Prophet Muhammad been able to insert sensitive numerical associations, like the ones based on the number of letters, in a text that was going to evolve over the centuries.

An example regarding this evolution of written text is in the obsolete spelling of the English word “sonne” for either “son” or “sun”.
Source: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sonne
As you can see the pronunciation and the meaning of the word remained the same but the spelling or the number of characters in the word changed. If I remember one particular article correctly, a similar evolution was also observed for the Arabic written text. The worst-case theory is that this is just a co-incidence which in-turn is contradicted by the fact of huge quantities of these associations. I personally haven’t compared the different written scripts so I can’t discuss how likely or unlikely is the “950 letters” association.

-   “Here are a few examples invented for the purposes of illustration:
Gabriel told me today to recite for all the world to hear that there are 92 fundamental atoms to be discovered on this Earth, and 5 of them are essential to the construction of a structure within our bodies too small for us to see, yet it contains the instructions needed to construct each of us.”

First of all, from what I’ve read and if I understand you correctly, there are definitely more than 92 fundamental (which I’m assuming means naturally occurring) elements on Earth. Regarding your point, whatever the number God would have told the Prophet it would’ve remained unprovable until all material from all over the world had been scientifically analysed which if I’m not mistaken is pretty much impossible at-least up till now. Also, again the argument could’ve been made on what is the definition of “essential” in the above paragraph. Does it include only elements that contribute directly, or are indirectly contributing substances also incorporated? Additionally, as we know that because of fission through the process of “Nuclear transmutation” atoms of one type can change to a different type, it can be argued that technically, in essence a lesser number of elements or even just one is “essential” for this purpose.
Furthermore, it can also be easily claimed that because all animals and plants come from previous animals and plants respectively, it was, what was that term you used, “a simple observation available at that time”.

-   “Gabriel told me to tell you folks that diseases such as smallpox and the common cold are caused, not by demons, but by tiny creatures that are too small for us to see.  When these tiny unseen creatures invade our bodies we become sick.”

First of all there is enough evidence to show that Prophet Muhammad didn’t believe diseases were caused by demons and neither did, at-least the majority of, his companions.
Abu Hurayrah narrates that The Prophet pbuh said:
“There is no disease that Allah has created, except that He also has created its remedy.”
Bukhari 7.582
Usamah ibn Shuraik narrated:
“… ‘O Allah’s Messenger! Should we seek medical treatment for our illnesses?’ He replied: ‘Yes, you should seek medical treatment, because Allah, the Exalted, has let no disease exist without providing for its cure, except for one ailment, namely, old age’.”
Tirmidhi
Source: http://www.fiqh.org/2009/04/every-illness-has-a-cure-the-islamic-perspective/

And it is interesting that you talked about smallpox because Muhammad ibn Zakariya ar-Razi (Rhazes) a Persian scientist’s “work on smallpox and measles was one of the first scientific treatments of infectious diseases.”
Source: http://www.infoplease.com/cig/dangerous-diseases-epidemics/smallpox-12000-years-terror.html

Moving on to your point, once again the argument of “a simple observation available at that time” can be made. A tapeworm in a human can range in length from 1/250 of an inch (.0063 cm) to an incredible 50 feet (15.23 meters).
Source: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/27/the_odd_body_tapeworm/

Furthermore, their eggs also find their way out of the bodies of animals through excretions. So, all a person had to do was examine the insides of some animal or their excretion to be able to deduce that tiny organisms can invade our bodies and make us sick. And using the incorrect inference fallacy, your “scientific miracle” would actually be a mistake because “when these tiny unseen creatures invade our bodies” it is not necessary for us to get sick. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don’t.

-   “Gabriel told me to say to everybody that the points of light in the night sky are just like our sun, but a thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand paces distant, except the wandering lights that shine with a steady light, which are actually worlds like our own Earth.  All these worlds and our earth move around the sun in orbits with the fundamental shape of a curve that is expressed as x divided by a times x divided by a plus y divided by b times y divided by b all to equal one.”

Once again, I can claim things faraway look smaller and it would’ve been “a simple observation available at that time” to claim that stars are faraway “suns”. That there is a difference between the “twinkling” and “non-twinkling” dots in the night sky was also “a simple observation available at that time”.

“Planets, on the other hand, are observed to move in very complicated paths with respect to the background stars, sometimes even appearing to go "against the grain" and reverse their directions. Therefore, they are easily distinguishable from stars if you look at the sky night after night.
There are other observational differences between planets and stars too, by the way -- such as the fact that planets almost never twinkle.”
Source: http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/physics/58-our-solar-system/planets-and-dwarf-planets/planet-watching/255-what-is-the-observational-difference-between-a-star-and-a-planet-beginner

Brother Osama believes that the Qur’an does talk about the curved path of heavenly bodies in his article:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm

-   “Gabriel gave me another message for you folks that energy equals mass times the speed of light times the speed of light.  I have no idea what that means but he said one day humanity will understand it and use it to build weapons of terrible destructive power.”

First of all God doesn’t have to include any scientific prediction in the Qur’an, as I mentioned before it is never claimed that the Qur’an is a book of Science. Besides even if this was included there would’ve still been lots of people who wouldn’t have believed.
Coming back to your point, this contradicts your own understanding of the Qur’an when you wrote “…the notion that Allah was presumably speaking eternal truths for all men of all times to come”. If people had absolutely no idea of what was being talked about wouldn’t that go against the concept of “for all men of all times”?

-   “As for what convinced me there is no god I would like to emphasize your well-chosen words, that I am convinced.  I do not make the strong claim of being able to absolutely prove there is no god, since I am unable to prove the universal negative… I was 12 and in the many years since I have continually reexamined my adolescent self-realization of the absence of any god…”

Atheism:
Merriam-Webster Dictionary: “A disbelief in the existence of deity” or “The doctrine that there is no deity”
Oxford Dictionary: “A person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods” or “A person who believes that God does not exist”
Sources:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/atheist
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/learner/atheist

Agnostic:
Merriam-Webster Dictionary: “A person who does not have a definite belief about whether God exists or not.”

Therefore, if you cannot prove that there is no God then, strictly speaking, logic dictates, if I’ve got my definitions correct, that you define yourself as more of an agnostic than an “atheist”.

-   “I am not sure if As'salamu Alaikum is the correct form as a valediction so I will close in my own vernacular…”
"Assalamu alaikum" means "Peace be with you". It is an Arabic phrase, from what I understand, there is nothing wrong in its use by non-Muslims.

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #86 on: January 16, 2016, 11:18:16 PM »
@StardustyPsyche,

On the matter of barrier between waters, according to my understanding of the topic which can be faulty and judging by the translation of the verse, the Qur’an is just claiming the presence of a barrier not the idea that the barrier exists forever. In fact, as one author states the “mixing together” is also included in the text,'

“In the Arabic text the word barzakh means a barrier or a partition. This barrier is not a physical partition. The Arabic word maraja [used in the verses in question] literally means 'they both meet and mix with each other'. Early commentators of the Qur'an were unable to explain the two opposite meanings for the two bodies of water, i.e. they meet and mix, and at the same time, there is a barrier between them. ”
Source: http://sunnahonline.com/library/the-majestic-quran/430-quran-and-modern-science-compatible-or-incompatible-the#h7-1-i-barrier-between-sweet-and-salt-waters

One Arabic dictionary translates the word “maraja” as “be jumbled”.
Source: http://www.almaany.com/en/dict/ar-en/مرج/

I don’t know Arabic so I can’t say for sure but if the above is true then this “mistake” would be another case of incorrect inference fallacy.
Several different types of layers exist inside bodies of water which act as “barriers”  to the “flow” of heat, certain chemicals, animals and equalizing salinities or densities.

Quote
The region of rapid density change is known as the pycnocline, and it acts as a barrier to vertical water circulation; thus it also affects the vertical distribution of certain chemicals which play a role in the biology of the seas. The sharp gradients in temperature and density also may act as a restriction to vertical movements of animals.
Pycnoclines become unstable when their Richardson number drops below 0.25. (…)This can produce Kelvin-Helmholtz instability, resulting in a turbulence which leads to mixing.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pycnocline

Therefore, when Pycnocline layer is stable, it acts as a barrier obstructing mixing of layers and when it is unstable mixing happens. From what I understand, a similar case exists for halocline layers too.

Quote
The opposing fresh and saltwater streams sometimes flow smoothly, one above the other. But when the velocity difference reaches a certain threshold, vigorous turbulence results, and the salt and fresh water are mixed. Tidal currents, which act independently of estuarine circulation, also add to the turbulence, mixing the salt and fresh waters to produce brackish water in the estuary.
Source: http://www.whoi.edu/oceanus/feature/where-the-rivers-meet-the-sea

As an additional point, because you have pushed the idea that knowledge detailed in the Qur’an was simple observation during that time, then, assuming that assertion is true, it is also highly probable that Prophet Muhammad would have known that the barrier isn’t permanent because if it were the case it stands to reason that for a 7th century man it would’ve meant that the fresh water would start flowing back onto land because it had already filled the available space “behind” the “barrier”. I don’t know much history in this context, but it is highly unlikely that any “seafaring trading contact” in those times would’ve believed that there was any barrier between the waters temporary or otherwise.

-   “The Greeks measured the diameter of the spherical Earth, no miracle…”
Now, you just need to show that the tribesman of 7th century Arabia knew about it. Aside from many other problems, if I’m not mistaken, Arabian peninsula had no libraries. Evidence shows that this became a generally accepted fact in the world much later in time. Even if the unlearned Prophet happened to come across such theories, why would he believe such stories which, if I’m not mistaken, couldn’t be unequivocally proven at that time?

-   “Suspended in Space. Where else would it [Earth] be?...”
Umm, maybe on air. You know the theory that was forwarded by Anaxagoras, the person used by Islam critics as the one who first explained that the moon shines due to reflected light from the sun.

-   “…it is just flat out wrong that the heavens and the Earth were made in 6 days.  Obviously, this is a Genesis retelling and Genesis gets it wrong wrong wrong.”
This point’s explanation was the very first argument I made. I don’t know why did you feel the need to make the same assertion again. Later, Brother Dawud also had to explain the same thing when you made this argument a third time.

On the matter of Hamza Tzortzis’s article:

Unless I missed it, one extremely important thing that Hamza Tzortzis failed to mention about knowledge already available, is that a lot of that was in the form of theories instead of provable empirical facts. Even if we believe that the Prophet had access to all the world’s books (and that he could read them too), why is that somehow for some unknown reason he was able to differentiate wrong theories from the right ones? The fact that this happened falls under: “An extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment”.

For example, in the case of Anaxagoras:

Quote
“Anaxagoras brought philosophy and the spirit of scientific inquiry from Ionia to Athens. His observations of the celestial bodies and the fall of meteorites led him to form new theories of the universal order. He attempted to give a scientific account of eclipses, meteors, rainbows, and the sun, which he described as a mass of blazing metal, larger than the Peloponnese. He was the first to explain that the moon shines due to reflected light from the sun. He also said that the moon had mountains and believed that it was inhabited. The heavenly bodies, he asserted, were masses of stone torn from the earth and ignited by rapid rotation. He explained that, though both sun and the stars were fiery stones, we do not feel the heat of the stars because of their enormous distance from earth. He thought that the earth is flat and floats supported by 'strong' air under it and disturbances in this air sometimes causes earthquakes.”
Cited source: Burnet J. (1892) Early Greek Philosophy A. & C. Black, London
Source: http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/7890/who-discovered-first-that-the-moon-does-not-have-its-own-light

Similar arguments can easily be made for other “known” facts.

-   “… No, science tells us that humans evolved from lower primates.”
That same theory, also pushes forward the idea that all species are descended from a single specie which, from what I understand, started out from water. You didn’t have any problem in disbelieving in that when Qur’an said it. Additionally, logic also tells us that if there was indeed a God, then it follows naturally that He would have the power to insert humanity directly while keeping everything else along the evolutionary line intact.

-   “Now, brother Dawud, you seek to add additional constraints to this mere trick of numerological construction.  In American parlance we call that ‘moving the goalposts’.”
Although, I personally believe that it would’ve been better if Brother Dawud had described all the requirements and constraints that he believes are necessary at the beginning, however this does not constitute “moving the goalposts” because these requirements aren’t something new but they have existed for fourteen centuries. Also, Muslims can’t even know how many of these requirements actually are, because before a few decades ago a lot of them weren’t known and there is no certainty about how many there are, still left to be discovered.

-   “You wish to bring up that the Qur'an also says that man was made from mud.  That is also scientifically false.  Science tells us that human beings evolved from lower primates, not mud.”

When water is being talked about, you have no problem in using the individual elements of water apparently because it points towards an alleged mistake in the Qur’an but when “mud” is being talked about, no consideration for the individual elements of mud. Why the inconsistency? Furthermore, although I have doubts for this part of the evolutionary theory, nevertheless why can’t human beings be evolved from primates and made from the constituents of mud at the same time?

Regarding the Golden Ratio:

As,  you have mentioned your successes in maths and technical fields, I find it interesting that you in your arguments, didn’t consider the fact that the golden ratio is an irrational number and therefore, in effect is impossible to be denoted in the form of a fraction, or to put it more accurately, in the form of a fraction where both the numerator and denominator are real numbers. In other words no matter which real numbers had been used there would have been an inescapable “approximation” to be made.

Now, the author of the Qur’an could have used the exact formula which involves the square root of 5, for all we know it could be present in the Qur’an but the main problem which would arise from such a relationship shall be that hardly anyone would believe in it. The huge quantities of interesting numerical associations that have been found just by four mathematical operations, –  namely: addition, subtraction, multiplication and division – are already difficult enough to believe for the sceptics, using another mathematical operation would have strengthened the allegation of “trying too hard to find associations that aren’t there”. The precision up to four digits are more than enough for a person to consider this as a sign from the author.

From what I understand, you didn’t assert the idea that the golden ration was inserted by humans rather pushed the idea that it’s just a co-incidence; in which case you apparently started out by categorically alleging that all numerical associations are manmade and when one is presented to you that doesn’t appear to be manmade, at-least more convincingly than others, you make the claim that it is a co-incidence. I apologise if I’m mistaken, but I think this falls under the criterion of “shifting the goalposts”.

-   “I appreciate your kind words.  I have heard much worse then those…”
If you have commented on the pages of people like Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller, I don’t doubt that.

-   “But, I suspect you are only partly expressing this out of concern for me.  I think it likely your primary goal is to maintain your own integrity and the integrity of a community you feel a part of.”
It has more to do with my idealistic desire to see Muslims following the spirit of Islam and the fact that I have also experienced much worse during my time on one particular non-Muslim, or rather anti-Islam, Facebook page.

-   “There was much time to engineer the Qur'an before the words were written on our earliest surviving example.”
Because of the inherent uncertainty involved in the process of carbon dating, I don’t think it will ever be possible, as far as the presently used techniques are concerned, to empirically prove absolutely that a particular Qur’an manuscript is from the Prophet’s time. The best that can be done is to have a probable range of years, which was done for the “Birmingham M 1572” manuscript.
Quote
“For the earliest extant manuscript [of the Qur’an] to have undergone extensive analysis, radiocarbon dating gives "a 68% probability of belonging to the period between AD 614 to AD 656…”
Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-e-b-lumbard/new-light-on-the-history-_b_7864930.html

-   “It is not difficult to write text, count up letters and words and verses and chapters, then make adjustments in word choice, ordering, and sentence choice to maintain the desired meaning but conform to the numerological wishes of the scribe.”

If you are so sure, then I would suggest that you learn the Arabic language and make such verses. The most important requirement for me, and I imagine for most Muslims, would be the unique literary and phonetic form and meaning of the Qur’an as compared to the numerical associations. Also, if you can do it by becoming an illiterate, not using computers, fighting a few wars, leading your community, being a family man while essentially creating a social, religious and political revolution all at the same time, it would really help your argument.
However, here I should point out that I have listened to some of these previous endeavours and even though I don’t understand Arabic, whether it was luck or something deeper, I was able to instantaneously tell that the recited “verses” were not from the Qur’an. I found an attribute lacking in those “verses” which before that point I had never considered existed in the Qur’an. Interestingly, that very same attribute was mentioned about the Qur’an by one of the disbeliever poets during Prophet Muhammad’s time too.

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #87 on: January 16, 2016, 11:46:56 PM »
@StardustyPsyche,

-   “Oh, but I did another solution!  This time I duplicated the exact numbers of the so called golden ratio supposedly created in code by Allah.  And I can assure you, I am not Allah, yet I produced these numbers.  There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an”

Nice work. Now do this while not knowing what the golden ratio actually is.

-   “Yes, just go outside at night, there is nothing apparently holding up the “heavens”.  How obvious.  How is that supposed to be some kind of scientific miracle? … There is nothing scientific about that, it is a mere assertion of divine powers, just like thousands of other assertions made by all the other imagined gods. ‘... My Lord encompasses all things in His knowledge so will you not pay heed?’ Again, there is nothing scientific about that, it is a mere assertion of divine powers.”

Not every single word or term of the Qur’an is claimed to be a scientific miracle. Brother Dawud is simply writing the Qur’an verse 13:2 and in the end Qur’an verse 6:80.

-   “Now, if you want to say a “period” an undetermined length of time then that is no miracle.”
I don’t think anyone here is claiming that this is a scientific miracle in the first place.

As a final point, so that I can further gauge what you consider satisfactory evidence, I want to ask that if the Qur’an says something along the lines of one of your criticisms such as: “… man evolved from lower primates” or “…Actually it doesn’t settle, it mixes with the woman’s own fluids” would it then be satisfactory?

Regards,

Offline Tarek Habbal

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #88 on: January 17, 2016, 11:39:07 AM »
"NOW - IS THIS MIND BLOWING OR WHAT?"
No, not mind blowing.

"This Hadeeth has been proven by NON MUSLIM SCIENTISTS and BIOLOGISTS."
No, the Hadith asserts a pathogen on 1 wing and and antidote on the other wing.  All the above fails to support the alternate wing prediction.

No, it is not mind blowing that medicines are made from extracts of living things.  That's what penicillin, aspirin, and many other drugs are."



So you just admitted the Hadeeth is correct.. I see cracks are showing.. You starting to contradict yourself there Hasbara :)


We created man from an extract of clay.  Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed.  Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance).. (Quran, 23:12-14)

“We created man from an extract of clay. “
No, man did not come from clay.  Science tells us man evolved from lower primates.

Yes he was. Same elements.. When you will die.. you will become dust/soil; one more thing, the Mainstream theory of human evolution is a hoax perpetrated by no other than the Satanic NWO, with the feeble minded falling to it just like they fell to the 9/11 lie

“We made him as a drop”
A drop of what, semen?  How obvious.  It was well known that semen is necessary to reproduction in humans.

It is the accuracy dude. ZERO contradictions.. what are the odds of these thousands of miracles being CORRECT all together, unless it was a divine revelation?

Thank you for confirming my faith further

“in a place of settlement”
Semen can’t go too far once it is inside a vagina, now can it?  Actually it doesn’t settle, it mixes with the woman’s own fluids.

And what's that place called? lol..

“We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot),”
Obviously a crude description of the products of miscarriage.  When a woman has an miscarriage it looks vaguly like a leech or a blood clot.  Of course it is neither, so the verse is mistaken, but it is crudely description of the products of miscarriage.  The cord makes a baby a "suspended thing", how obvious.

The image was provided earlier. You are just deceiving yourself. Hope you are enjoying your Coma

“We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)”
Again the words are factually incorrect, we do not come from a chewed substance.  But this is just another crude description of the products of miscarriage.

Ditto

The Qur’an offers only obvious observations, crude descriptions available to 7th century man, or outright errors.

The Quran is the Word of God.

Thank you for strengthening my faith


Now are you gonna answer about 9/11?

Or ignore it again?


Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #89 on: January 17, 2016, 11:53:23 AM »
Brother Ahmad,
Thank you very much indeed for your many very thoughtful words on so many subjects!

I will do my best to address every point, but I will be jumping around somewhat in several posts, so please do not think I am being hypocritical in cherry picking your words.  Feel free to join in conversationally at any time or to draw my attention to particular points you feel I might not have properly addressed.  I hope to address every point you have made in due course but it will take some time for me to do so.

What is a scientific miracle?  I suggest we ought to agree on terms before we spend too much time speaking at cross-purposes.

“From a rational point of view, if a plausible naturalistic explanation is available then that explanation will be adopted over a supernatural one. The very fact that a plausible naturalistic explanation is possible implies that there is no miracle because by definition a miracle is an event that cannot be explained naturalistically”
http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/does-the-quran-contain-scientific-miracles-a-new-approach/

My targets of refutation are the strong claims to supernatural necessity made by brother Osama on this site:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm

Brother Osama repeatedly claims that certain features of the Qur’an necessarily could not have been produced by 7th century men by their own intellect and powers, rather, Osama asserts, such items are proven to require supernatural intervention to explain their presence in the Qur’an.

It is the strong claims to supernatural necessity I am refuting.

Brother Ahmad, you make a very different claim, one of compatibility.  For you, it seems to me by your words, it is enough that the Qur’an is not in strict contradiction to modern science.

Since the Qur’an provides only simple descriptions of the natural world in terms available to 7th century man then those descriptions will be compatible with science if we allow for a very broad use of descriptive language and do not expect literal accuracy.

Here is what Webster defines as a Miracle:
Simple Definition of miracle
    : an unusual or wonderful event that is believed to be caused by the power of God
    : a very amazing or unusual event, thing, or achievement
Full Definition of miracle
    1    :  an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
    2    :  an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment
    3    Christian Science :  a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law

Out of this you chose:
“An extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment”
You chose as your primary definition what Webster lists as the second definition.  That is fine if that is what you choose for yourself, but it is not what I am refuting.  I am refuting the first definition:
“an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs”

In case after case brother Osama asserts that the words or the structure of the Qur’an could not possibly be accounted for by anything other than divine intervention.  My refutations are that these features were possible for 7th century man to implement without divine intervention.

And brother Osama is not alone.  There are millions of Muslims who agree with him.  Assertions of divine necessity in the so-called “scientific miracles of the Qur’an” abound in books and speeches and articles and web pages by the thousands.  I refute them all.

So, when the Qur’an, for example, describes the motion of the sun across the sky, and we allow for a broad use of descriptive or poetic language, then that description is very broadly compatible with modern science.  What is the miracle in that?  What could be more obvious than the facts of the apparent motion of the sun across the sky?

You offered an interpretation of the Arabic in the verse about the mixing of the waters to mean that they meet and then mix.  Well, fine.  That is obvious.  When a river flows to sea the waters meet and mix.  Yes, that is compatible with modern science.  That is a simple observation available to 7th century man.  How is that to be considered a miracle in any sense?

But your claim is not the claim most often heard by those who say the halocline or the visible demarcations between meeting waters is proof of something occurring that was unavailable to 7th century observation, yet is in the Qur’an and is therefore by necessity an act of divine intervention.  Such assertions are false.  The waters do mix.  There is no impenetrable barrier across which the waters do not transgress.  Further, certain apparent barriers were visible on the surface and were available to 7th century man.  The Qur’an is thus factually incorrect in its literal meaning, and merely descriptive in its broader meaning.  Either way, not a miracle of divine intervention.

More to come my brothers and sisters, please feel free to join in conversationally…
Peace to you all