Author Topic: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an  (Read 60195 times)

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Offline StardustyPsyche

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There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« on: January 01, 2016, 06:30:10 PM »
There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an

The heavens and the earth were not created in 6 days. Qur'an 50:38
Science tells us the big bang happened 13,700,000,000 years ago and the Earth formed 4,600,000,000 years ago.

A clot of blood is not a stage in human development. Qur’an 23:13-14
Science documents the stages of development from egg and sperm to birth.  No blood clot stage.

Living things are not made from water. Qur’an 21:30
Water is Hydrogen and Oxygen.  Life also requires Carbon, Nitrogen, and Phosphorous for DNA.

There is no inviolable obstruction between fresh water and saltwater. Qur’an 25:53
When fresh water flows out to salt water it mixes with the salt water and becomes salty.  This sets up a somewhat stable salinity gradient.

And so it goes.  All the asserted scientific miracles turn out to be exactly what you would expect of a 7th century man who was limited to common knowledge available to leaders at that time based upon naked eye observations and a few guesses, often mistaken.


Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2016, 09:54:26 PM »
Hi StardustyPsyche,

Welcome to the board.  I ask Allah Almighty to remove the ignorance that you're suffering from, and to open up your heart to His Divine Truth, Islam.  Ameen.

Either you are fabricating lies on the Glorious Quran, or you are ignorant.  I invite you and the reader to visit the following links that should insha'Allah thoroughly demonstrate the Glorious Quran's Overwhelming Scientific and Numerical Miracles:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/quran/my_04.htm

www.answering-christianity.com/bones_then_muscles_wrapping.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/sex_determination.htm

www.answering-christianity.com/bringing_forth_its_waters.htm

www.answering-christianity.com/separation_of_salty_seas_waters_miracle.htm



The Quran's Ultimate Proof:

Furthermore, visit the following link to see some STUNNING NUMERICAL MIRACLES in the Glorious Quran.  By the way, in this article you'll find Allah Almighty's PROOF AND GUARANTEE to you as a non-Muslim that the Quran is indeed Divine.  This is what Allah Almighty Himself Said.  Visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm

May Allah Almighty guide you to the Right Path of Islam.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2016, 04:07:27 AM »
Calling me a either a liar or ignorant is not the warmest welcome I have ever received  :D

I have been to the links you offer and many others by other authors making essentially the same assertions you are making regarding the supposed scientific or numerological miracles in the Qur'an.

You have not addressed, specifically, any of my refutations of those assertions.  Simply calling me ignorant or a liar is not a reasoned argument.

So, below are some more refutations of the assertions you and other authors are making.  I invite you to specifically address the actual arguments my words make.  Links to further groundless assertions do not constitute a rational exchange.

The skies and the earth were not once one mass, they were not split asunder. Qur’an 21:30
The big bang had been expanding for 9,100,000,000 years before the Earth was formed in one tiny part of it.

Suggesting something is smaller than an atom is not atomic theory. Quran 43.3
Greek atomists had some very clever evidences for atoms.  The obvious suggestion is that they too can be split.  Protons can be divided, and now people are working on dividing quarks.  Asserting divisibility is no miracle, it is simple human logic.

The universe was not made from smoke. Quran 41:11
7th century man knew smoke but not what it was made of, small bits unburned living matter, usually from plants, sometimes from animals.  That is not what the universe was made from.

Iron from above is simple human observation, not a miracle. Qur’an 57:25
Meteorites are most easily found in open areas, such as desert and ice covered landscapes, because a rock in the middle of an area that has no other rocks is easy to spot and must have fallen from the sky.  Meteors containing iron are the most easily identified sort because they feel so much heavier than ordinary rocks for any given size.



Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2016, 12:55:15 PM »
Quote
I have been to the links you offer and many others by other authors making essentially the same assertions you are making regarding the supposed scientific or numerological miracles in the Qur'an.

In the links that I gave you, we have Western scientists' discoveries and quotations posted there along with scientific pictures that fully demonstrate the Glorious Quran's Miracles.  What you have given us is empty talk.  And your points on the big bang and iron was sent down from space, the Glorious Quran's Miracles had thoroughly discussed at:

www.answering-christianity.com/hot_gas.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/earth.htm


To the reader, again, please visit the following links to see the Glorious Quran's STUNNING Scientific and Numerical Miracles, and to see thorough refutations the anti-Islamic claims that were made by him and others:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm



No response to the Numerical Miracles:

Notice how he avoided responding to the Numerical Miracles in the second link.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2016, 08:04:03 AM »
Brother Osama, it is becoming very apparent that you seem incapable of forming your own words in a conversation that specifically address the actual points of the individual you are supposedly conversing with.

Rather, your only response is to send links to the words of others.  I have found that when an individual cannot explain a subject in his own words then that individual does not understand the subject under discussion.

To be evidence of a miracle the text must convey information beyond the capacity of a 7th century man to observe, count, or easily infer from ordinary observations.

Iron was known to fall from space by simple observation.  There is no miracle in writing “he sent down iron”.  Anybody who picked up an iron meteorite could easily observe that iron has been sent down.  Your links do nothing to counter this simple fact.  Thus, the mere observation that iron was “sent down” is no evidence for a miracle.

To be a numerical miracle the numerical construction must be beyond the capabilities of a 7th century man to make.  I gave the example of how easy it is to describe a 950 year old man in 950 letters, as any student is capable of doing.  Yet, this construction of words at the level of a high school writing assignment is fallaciously put forth as proof of a miracle. 

“StardustyPsyche is a really great man who lived in the USA for 58 years”  Note, I have described a 58 year old man using 58 characters, therefore I am god!!!


Offline submit

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2016, 09:47:33 AM »
Al-Quran are Words of covenant and inside it comprise signs from the Creator for mankind as they wonder why cant they extend their life/youth or prevent death, was there a reason to their existence on earth.

Quote
One of the signs is about How God will meet His creations on The Day of Resurrection. Prior to that, we will have end of days.

This is a link of reference about shape of universe from NASA (http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html).

Almighty God said He is the One that controls the expansive universe. That's why if we search for facts on the final stage of expansion @ End of Days. We can't find any possibilities of it to happen. Thus the argument of Universe expanding-forever remains true for human as human will never know when it will end.

But ,  Almighty God said,

"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
(The Qur'an, 51:47)

"Verily, the Hour is surely coming. But I will to keep it hidden, that every soul may be rewarded for that which it strives (to achieve)." [The Qur'an 20:15]

Almighty God explanation on end of days about what will happen to our flat universe.

The Day when We will fold the heaven like the folding of a [written] sheet for the records. As We began the first creation, We will repeat it. [That is] a promise binding upon Us. Indeed, We will do it. (The Qur'an, 21:104)

Indeed , this is a great verse from the Divine Creator reminding us to always prepare before the coming of Judgement Day.



Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2016, 05:02:23 PM »
Quote
To be a numerical miracle the numerical construction must be beyond the capabilities of a 7th century man to make.  I gave the example of how easy it is to describe a 950 year old man in 950 letters, as any student is capable of doing.  Yet, this construction of words at the level of a high school writing assignment is fallaciously put forth as proof of a miracle. 

“StardustyPsyche is a really great man who lived in the USA for 58 years”  Note, I have described a 58 year old man using 58 characters, therefore I am god!!!

The Numerical Miracle in the Glorious Quran is the following:

1-  Chapter Nuh (Noah) has determined how to determine what is an actual drawn letter and what is a vowel from the Glorious Quran's characters.  Once we counted the drawn letters only, we found them to be exactly 950 letters.

2-  Taking this standard of determining which is a letter and which is a vowel from all of the Glorious Quran's characters, and applying it to the Glorious Quran, we found literally THOUSANDS OF STUNNING PATERNS and Miracles.

3-  And building a numerical table that gives numerical values to the Drawn Letters from most occurring to the least (value 1 given to the most occurring, value 2 given to the second most occurring, and so on....), and applying these numerical values to calculate the numerical value of the Glorious Quran's Drawn Letters and Words, we found THOUSANDS OF STUNNING NUMERICAL RESULTS.

4-  Look at the Number 19 Miracle and the BASMALA and Noble Verses 74:30-37 to start with.  Then come back with your "refutation" if you have any.  Again, visit this link:

www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm



This is a warning to you:

Please read my links first.  This is a warning to you.  Don't come back with shallow nonsense and lies such as I don't have answers for you and I am only giving you links to avoid answering.  This shows that you didn't even open the links.  This is what your stupid trolls do.  This is where I am annoyed from you.  I've done THOROUGH work in these links.  I don't mind debating you in 1000 posts here.  But I do have a problem with doomed-to-Hell anti-Islamics just coming to our boards vomit their nonsense and ignoring our refutations.  And worst, not even read our refutations.  Just simply dismissing them by the wholesale.  If you're going to come here with an arrogant and disregarding attitude, then I'll disregard you from this whole board!  I have no respect for trolls.

If you are from this kind, then I'll ban you.  I don't have time for spammers.  I really don't.  If you're serious, then go through my articles before you comment on them.  Engage them directly, and I'll be happy to interact with you for as long as it takes.

I know that you come from a Bible background, where it is a corrupt book filled with scientific blunders and it is always in an open season for mockery and insults:

www.answering-christianity.com/bible_scientific_absurdities.htm

I know that you suffer from this disease.  But this is the Quran!  It's not the Bible.  Believe me, IT IS NOT THE BIBLE!  In fact, the Quran came to rescue the Truth that exists in the Bible.  It came to confirm it and filter your Scriptures from all of the man-made nonsense that was injected into them:

www.answering-christianity.com/deuteronomy4_2.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/warning.htm


And you have attacked your Bible with your Universe was created in 6 days point.  Because the Bible makes the same claim, except with the error of saying that GOD Almighty RESTED on the seventh day.  GOD Almighty doesn't rest.  This is a human-animal concept (of getting tired and then resting).  Islam came and corrected the Bible in this also.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2016, 04:29:54 AM »
Brother Osama,
1-  Chapter Nuh (Noah) has determined how to determine what is an actual drawn letter and what is a vowel from the Glorious Quran's characters.  Once we counted the drawn letters only, we found them to be exactly 950 letters.
SP-Ok, so that tells me the author of that passage counted up the number of drawn letters and adjusted the wording until the number of drawn letters equals 950.  No miracle required, just simple counting and human editing.

2-  Taking this standard of determining which is a letter and which is a vowel from all of the Glorious Quran's characters, and applying it to the Glorious Quran, we found literally THOUSANDS OF STUNNING PATERNS and Miracles.
SP-If human beings are capable of discovering these numerical patterns then human beings are capable of editing these patterns into the text, no miracle required.

3-  And building a numerical table that gives numerical values to the Drawn Letters from most occurring to the least (value 1 given to the most occurring, value 2 given to the second most occurring, and so on....), and applying these numerical values to calculate the numerical value of the Glorious Quran's Drawn Letters and Words, we found THOUSANDS OF STUNNING NUMERICAL RESULTS.
SP-Please see 2 above.

4-  Look at the Number 19 Miracle and the BASMALA and Noble Verses 74:30-37 to start with.  Then come back with your "refutation" if you have any.  Again, visit this link:
SP-I would refute your claim if I could figure out what it is.  All I see is that you cited a few simple mathematical expressions, a couple numbers that do not even equal each other, and you call it a miracle.  What exactly is your claim that somehow these numbers could not have arisen by ordinary human activity?
The Glorious Quran has 114 Chapters. The sum of those Chapters is 6555 (1+2+...+114 = 6555). There are also 6236 Noble Verses in the Glorious Quran. Now, IF YOU ADD EACH CHAPTER # with the number of its Verses, then you get a list of numbers. So 1 (first Chapter) + 7 (# of its Verses) = 8. Do this for all Chapters.

1-  The sum of the odd numbers from the list = 6555.
2-  The sum of the even numbers from the list = 6236.
SP-Ok, so those unequal numbers are some sums  of even numbers and odd numbers.  How is that impossible to have arisen from ordinary human activity?

…we for example see that Noble Surah (Chapter) Nuh (Noah) is written in exactly 950 Noble Letters [1] (see also the scanned images below) and Allah Almighty Said that Prophet Nuh lived among his people for 950 years in the same Noble Surah, then there is nothing random about this one.
SP-Indeed, not random, rather the intentional work of a human editor who crafted the words with those numbers.  No miracle required.

Allah Almighty's two Divine Promises to the people of Israel's destruction were both combined written in 75 Words, and each Promise was written in 75 letters
SP-OK, it seems the human being who wrote those words liked the number 75 and crafted the words to fit, no miracle required.

The following images are my calculation, and they end up exactly with 2185, which equal to 19 X 115:
SP-So what?  The factors of 2185 are
1, 5, 19, 23, 95, 115, 437, 2185 so
1 X 2185 = 2185
5 X 437 = 2185
19 X 115 = 2185
23 X 95 = 2185
How is any of that in any way a product of divine miracle by necessity?  What exactly is your claim to these numbers somehow being necessarily beyond human capacity to generate?

If you are from this kind, then I'll ban you.
SP-That would not surprise me.  I have been banned for saying that the ancient Jews stole the land we now call Palestine or Israel using genocidal invasion.  That makes me a bigot, a troll, and a liar, except for one little thing, that is exactly what the books of Moses in the bible say.  I would not be surprised if you do the same with respect to the texts of Islam.

I have been banned by Robert Spencer, Pamela Geller, and PZ Myers.  Muslim Matters posts a fraction of my words.  David Wood blocks about half my words.  So called “freethought” blogs mostly block me.  Most moderators on most blogs will block or ban anybody who can articulate well-reasoned challenges to their positions.  The typical blog is a mutual admiration society.  This safe space video is both hilarious and accurate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXQkXXBqj_U

If you wish to learn what is wrong with your positions and thereby grow as a human being you will engage me.  If you are a coward who only speaks with people who already agree with you then you will ban me.  Many people have the physical courage to fight and die for what they believe, but few have the intellectual courage to engage in critical self-examination of their beliefs with a person capable of articulating the flaws in those beliefs.  We shall see what stuff you are made of.

I know that you come from a Bible background
SP-I am an atheist.  You know less of me than you think you know.  I realize I know nothing of you.  A wise man approaches a stranger as an unknown.

Believe me, IT IS NOT THE BIBLE!
SP-Why should I believe you?  I do not ask you to believe me.  I make my arguments on the merits.

And you have attacked your Bible with your Universe was created in 6 days point.
SP-The OT is actually worse than the Qur’an.  The OT is a horror show.  It is most certainly not mine.  I am not suggesting you are in general a bigoted man, you probably make efforts to approach individuals you meet with equanimity.  But your deep-seated prejudices are nevertheless coming to light in your false attributions of the Bible to me.

GOD Almighty doesn't rest.
SP-Thank you my brother Osama!!!  That is eminently rational.  Of course the almighty, if there were such a thing, would not rest.  What a preposterous notion the biblical 7th day is.


Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2016, 05:18:25 PM »
Brother Osama has apparently spent enough of his time in writing articles and debating with other people, so probably for this reason, he prefers to give links to his articles and let critics argue on specific points from those articles instead of just making blanket statements of denial.

Although, I don’t agree with the way Brother Osama “welcomed” you because he himself advises to “not insult or offend any non Muslim members”, he probably drew those conclusions because of the kind of arguments that you made, some of which, if I’m not missing something, were blatant fallacies.

The following is from my limited understanding and reasoning which can be flawed.

-   “The heavens and the earth were not created in 6 days. Qur'an 50:38”
The word translated as ‘days’ in this verse: “Ayyam”, can also mean ‘Periods’. The ‘Shakir’ translation of the Qur’an uses the word ‘Periods’. Whether you term this as convenient or not it does not disprove the Qur’an.

-   “A clot of blood is not a stage in human development. Qur’an 23:13-14”
“Clot of blood” is not the only way this part of the verse can be translated. Others have translated it to a “clinging clot”. The article Brother Osama Abdullah linked to above, goes into more detail on this: http://www.answering-christianity.com/bones_then_muscles_wrapping.htm

-   “Living things are not made from water. Qur’an 21:30”
You are committing the fallacy of incorrect inference here. It’s like if I say that humans have a brain, a heart and a stomach; it doesn’t mean I’m saying that humans don’t have a liver, pancreas or intestines.

The Qur’an doesn’t say that living things are made of ONLY water, meaning that other things are possibly included but water is a certainty, which was proved (from what I’ve read) by the discovery of water in all living cells. Also, the Qur’an claims that human beings are also made of clay, not just water which would fulfil the requirement for “Carbon, Nitrogen, and Phosphorous for DNA”. This particular “Clay” claim is too ambiguous for most people to consider a miracle, so it is usually not included under the heading of “Scientific Miracles”.

-    “The skies and the earth were not once one mass, they were not split asunder. Qur’an 21:30”
Because of accumulated empirical evidence the Big Bang Theory is considered the likely explanation of the fact of expanding universe. Because of cosmic expansion it is highly likely that “an expanding universe might be traced back in time to an originating single point” of extreme density and temperature. In other words, all of the universe (the present skies and the earth) at some point in the past accumulated together at a single point.

Quote
“… If galaxies are moving away from us, reasoned Hubble, then at some time in the past, they must have been clustered close together.”
Source: http://home.cern/about/physics/early-universe

-   “Suggesting something is smaller than an atom is not atomic theory. Quran 43.3”
When the Qur’an talks about knowledge people probably knew in the 7th century, the critics argue that there is nothing significant here, even though, according to scholarly consensus, Muhammad didn’t know how to read or write, probably didn’t travel much – in which case all of this “common” knowledge (like the merging of two seas) would have been stories that he heard from others – therefore, if Muhammad was a person who so casually used to include stories that he himself had no observational proof for and for which he only had the word of strangers, there would’ve been an extremely high probability that “his” book would have included many obvious mistakes, not like the equivocal ones, critics come up with, which are mostly, if not always straw man fallacies.

And on the other hand, when the Qur’an makes a claim that 7th century Arabia didn’t know about (like the smaller than an atom claim) the critics argue that it was an “obvious suggestion” or “it is simple human logic”. It is pertinent to note here, that if science hadn’t discovered smaller particles than an atom then the very same critics would have been claiming that this is a mistake in the Qur’an. Call it a guess or whatever, but it turned out to be true. A “guess” more improbable for a 7th century, illiterate Arab tribesman.
These “guesses” individually are not representative of the divine nature of the Qur’an but act only as hints . Only when they are collectively considered does the probability of them being a mere co-incidence becomes highly unlikely.

-   “The universe was not made from smoke. Quran 41:11”
Shakir’s Qur’an translation has translated the word as vapour. Google translate also translates the word to “fume” which can easily mean “Vapour” “Smoke” or “Gas”.

Quote
“In the first moments after the Big Bang, the universe was extremely hot and dense. (…) It took 380,000 years for electrons to be trapped in orbits around nuclei, forming the first atoms. These were mainly helium and hydrogen, which are still by far the most abundant elements in the universe. 1.6 million years later, gravity began to form stars and galaxies from clouds of gas.”
Source: http://home.cern/about/physics/early-universe

Numerical Miracles

Although unlike some other Muslims, I don’t believe that the numerical “miracles” of the Qur’an are absolute proofs for the divinity of the Qur’an, I don’t deny that they are still of huge importance. As with many things in history there is some degree of uncertainty, in such cases the Occam’s Razor principle is helpful: “Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.”

The Qur’anic revelation happened in parts. Simultaneously, different verses belonging to various chapters of the Qur’an were getting revealed to Muhammad. Therefore, at the same time different chapters remained incomplete. During that same time, Muhammad’s followers were being tortured, he was experiencing the loss of his loved ones (family and friends), himself facing persecution, migrating from his home, constantly being a teacher for his followers, creating a new legal and spiritual system, fighting wars with the disbelievers, sending missionaries to foreign lands and kings, spending a lot of time on his prayers and fasting, being a constant political leader, judge, educator, ambassador and labourer for his community. In all that, Muhammad who couldn’t read or write created these mathematical novelties and the most amazing thing for me to believe is that he forgot to tell anyone about them.

Furthermore, the interesting relationship between some words and their related words (by being opposites or some other obvious relationship) also would have been extremely difficult to pull off in such circumstances. From what I’ve read these relationships were found only after the Qur’an’s index was made available in 1945 due to years of work by a man and his students.

Additionally, the most significant of these numerical happenings is the fine, fragile relation between the chapter numbers, their verse numbers and the total number of verses in the Qur’an. One hypothesis would be that Muhammad intentionally somehow designed this (keeping all the above mentioned difficulties in mind) and chose not to tell anyone about it. Muhammad could have easily told his followers about it and told them that it was a fine divinely inspired relationship which was supposed to help them make sure that not a single verse of the Qur’an is missing or extra. Why would a person risk such a finely designed relationship, which undoubtedly would have required huge amounts of effort, to be so easily forgotten? In-fact, if I’m not mistaken, it took about thirteen centuries for this connection to be finally found.

Moreover, there are scholars (non-Muslim) of Muhammad’s life, like William Montgomery Watt, who assert that even although they are not in a position to conclude whether Muhammad’s inspirations were divinely inspired or just a product of his own unconscious functioning, what they do believe in, is that Muhammad was indeed a sincere person.

Quote
“Only a profound belief in himself and his mission explains Muhammad's readiness to endure hardship and persecution during the Meccan period when from a secular point of view there was no prospect of success. Without sincerity how could he have won the allegiance and even devotion of men … His sincerity in this belief must be accepted by the modern historian, for this alone makes credible the development of a great religion.”
Source: Watt, Montgomery, Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman. Oxford University Press, 1961. From p. 232 + The Cambridge History of Islam (1970), Cambridge University Press, p.30

In such a situation, if there is indeed a divine being and if that being wanted to leave a sign for His believers regarding the preservation of His book, a thousand years after His prophet had died, the above mentioned mathematical relationship would have been a pretty nice way to do it. Keeping all the information we have about Islam, this appears to be the most likely or believable hypothesis.

Regards,

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2016, 10:55:11 PM »
As'salamu Alaikum brothers Ahmad and Stardusty,

Dear brother Ahmad, thank you very much for your valuable response.  And thank you for reminding me to be more welcoming and responsible.  May Allah Almighty bless you for the good advise, akhi.  Ameen.

Dear brother Stardusty, I apologize for being cold.  You are welcomed to post your thoughts on this board as you please.  I won't be a coward who only speaks with the people that agree with him.  LOL, we on this board are opposite from this :).

I will insha'Allah start replying to your points either tomorrow or by this weekend.  I look forward to engaging you.  You seem to be an intelligent man.  May Allah Almighty open your heart to Islam.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2016, 11:00:17 PM »
Brother Ahmad,
Thank you very much indeed for your long and thoughtful reply.

If you wish to interpret the creation story of Allah to be “6 periods” you have rendered the words of Allah meaningless.  There is no predictive value in the word “period” as a measure of time.  No miracle indicated

There is no “clinging clot” stage in human development.  If “clot” is the best description of a developing human being that one can articulate why call him Allah?  Surly the all-knowing creator of humanity can do better than any illiterate attendant to a miscarriage in describing the products of a terminated pregnancy.  You do realize that is all the Qur’an does, don’t you?  How is describing the products of a miscarriage in simplistic terms indicate a miracle?

Living things are made only partly from water, you say, but that is not what Allah said through his messenger.  Apparently you are calling the word of Allah incomplete and unclear.  In truth the simplest observation is that water is essential to life.  Yet a vague and incomplete statement of this most obvious fact is somehow a miracle in the mind of Brother Osama and so many Muslims.

Ok, so the universe was made from smoke, or a fume, or gas, or vapor.  This is how the all knowing speaks clearly and miraculously?  How exactly are these vague and poorly defined alternatives indicative of a miracle?

You go on to speak in very general terms about fragile numerical relationships and many speculations about Muhammad.  Well, fine, if you enjoy thinking about such things that is ok, but that kind of generalized speculation is no evidence of a miracle of any kind.

Actually
23 X 95 = 2185
is also a true expression, so who knows, maybe Allah really wants us to pay attention to the number 23 or the number 95, not the number 19. Numerology is rife with fanciful speculations.  I have seen nothing in Brother Osama’s links or anywhere else remotely requiring divine construction.

What is the most believable hypothesis?  The one we have evidence for.  I have libraries full of evidence that human beings can manipulate words and numbers in great quantities and create vastly intricate and extensive sets of numbers in connection with words.  I have pictures of human beings performing arithmetic calculations.  I have witnessed human beings performing arithmetic calculations.  I am a human being who has performed arithmetic calculations.

No such evidence exists for a supernatural manipulator of numbers.  But please do send me the link to the video if anyone ever catches miraculous math in progress.

Sorry Brother Ahmad, I really do not take any pleasure in causing distress in others, and from time to time I know my words have caused distress in the hearts of Muslims I have communicated with.  Reason tells us there are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an, as uncomfortable as it might be to hear me say so.


Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2016, 09:47:18 PM »
Osama Abdullah and StardustyPsyche, I’m glad I was able to help. The following is again according to my limited understanding and reasoning which can be flawed.

-   “If you wish to interpret the creation story of Allah to be “6 periods” you have rendered the words of Allah meaningless.  There is no predictive value in the word “period” as a measure of time.  No miracle indicated”
Only as meaningless as any other verse dealing with knowledge we don’t yet have. A few centuries ago “living things created from water” was similarly meaningless. This could be alluding to six distinct phases that the Universe went through up to the time Earth became habitable, or something entirely different. A far as I remember, I have never seen any Muslim scholar try to push this verse as a miracle. It is interesting mostly in the context that it conforms (or rather doesn’t contradict) to modern scientific understanding and contrasts directly to the Bible’s version of six (commonly understood as) 24 hour days idea. Additionally, it also contradicts the critics who claim that the Qur’an is plagiarised because it was able to exclude stories such as these (plus the Earth being flat idea) into its text.

-   “There is no “clinging clot” stage in human development…”
I doubt that it would have been very productive for God to use terms like the fallopian tube or the uterine wall while addressing people of 7th century Arabia. Using common terminology understandable to the people was the logical thing to do. Also, according to what I’ve read, these initial stages are only observable through a microscope.

-   “Living things are made only partly from water…”
In this context, the only thing the messenger said was that living things are created from water, nothing more. The meaning that water is the ‘only’ constituent of living things is a human interpretation, as far as I know, there is no evidence to suggest that was what the messenger meant. As I said before, fallacy of incorrect inference. The same fallacy which is used by ant-Islamists to show that when the Qur’an talks about fighting the disbelievers, it is actually talking about fighting ‘ALL’ the disbelievers.

Regarding completeness, if by ‘incomplete’ you mean that God should have told us all the elements that living things are made of, then I suppose according to this definition as far as we have understood God’s book until now it can be called as “incomplete” but, from what I know, this was not the objective of this book. Regarding clarity, in my opinion, this verse is pretty clear. It is not a fault with the Qur’an if people make fallacious interpretations for it.

Water being essential for life is a far cry from making the claim that “all living things are made from water”. If I tell you about a man made from tin, you will probably think about the tin-man from “Wizard of Oz” i.e. a man made entirely (or at-least obviously) from tin. If I talk about a creature of fire, a person’s imagination will likely conjure up a walking, talking body of fire. Tell me, when you look at yourself in the mirror or when you look at other animals, is the first thought that comes to your mind: “Hey, I’m made from water, or that animal is made from water”? I highly doubt that. Although apparently, just by looking, a person can come to the conclusion that animals could have been created from clay, but ‘created from water’ is definitely not an obvious or even a probable guess.

-   “Ok, so the universe was made from smoke, or a fume, or gas, or vapor…”
Again, it wouldn’t have been very understandable if God had stated that He created the galaxies from hydrogen and helium plasma. Additionally, although this description sits well with modern science other incorrect explanations that a 7th century tribesman could have easily come up with and which would have sounded much more plausible to the people of those times weren’t used.

For example, Prophet Muhammad could have said something like: “God made the heavens and the Earth from a bright and magnificent golden shimmering liquid. Just like liquid metal is allowed by God to be given form and used for the benefit of mankind, God created the concrete Earth from a liquid. And then God turned to the heavens and just like a liquid evaporates by His command, He willed the liquid to rise up and create the air around you and the heavens above you.”

Another example could have been: “In the beginning the universe was a lump of hard affluence and from that affluence, God carved out the Earth like a sculptor carves out a model or like a potter who carves out a vase. And then He turned his attention to the lingering affluence and decreed it to become into the heavens and the stars and so it transpired.”

There are several spectacular but incorrect combinations that could have been used to state this creation of the galaxies, but the fact that the one way it was actually stated is so near to actual scientific understanding is highly unlikely. At worst you can call it a guess and in connection with everything else a very improbable guess.

-   “…many speculations about Muhammad…”
I don’t think it is correct to disregard the conclusions of scholars (Muslim and non-Muslim) who have spent years researching the life of Prophet Muhammad as just ‘speculation’.

Consider the scenario that if there is actually a divinity who wanted to include signs of His existence for later generations by including mathematical relationships in His books, they had to be simple enough that humans could decipher them because otherwise there wouldn’t be any point to them. It took thirteen centuries, but this is exactly what happened with the Qur’an. Unfortunately, with this scenario, the theory of humans creating it themselves also arises. From what I can understand there is no way of getting out of it. Logically speaking there is nothing that could have been done to circumvent this question. There is no falsification test for this theory. The most that can be done is to show that the probability of that actually having happened is extremely small; which was possibly done by making it take thirteen centuries to find those relationships.

I personally, try to think of these happenings in more accurate terms like probabilities and likelihoods instead of miracles. Although, I personally don’t deny that these mathematical relationships can be thought up by humans but because of the related circumstances surrounding this phenomena like the highly unusual nature of the Prophet’s life, other extraordinary Qur’an verses, the fulfilled prophesies regarding the Muslims etc. all of them, sure, can be regarded as just some grand insane planetary co-incidence, but the probability of that happening just by chance, is again tremendously remote. Additionally, there have been other religious books written in history even changed through their histories but still a similar plethora of extremely improbable mathematical relationships was never found.

As a final note, I would like you to consider the following written by Dr. Gary Miller:
Quote
“Dilemma of Applying Reason

Almost all of us have been faced with the questioning of a child by repeating one word over and over. He can be very frustrating to us as he asks Why? If you put a knife beyond his reach, he wants to know, Why? When you explain it is sharp, he asks "Why?" And so you explain, in order to cut fruit, and he asks, Why? And so it goes

It illustrates the dilemma of applying reason. What we have to do when we apply reason is first to set standards of proof. We decide for ourselves, "What will I be satisfied with if I find such and such and so and so that constitutes for me a final proof?" We have to decide on that first.

What happens though, is that on the really important issues, the philosophical matters, thinkers set standards and eventually they may arrive at their standards. They may arrive at the point which they say would constitute a proof. But then they ask for a proof of the proof.

 Setting Standards

The key to avoiding this endless dissatisfaction is to satisfy ourselves about standards first; to satisfy ourselves that such and such are a list of criteria that constitute proof, satisfying proof, and then we test the subjects that we examine.”
Source: http://www.discoveringislam.org/dr_gary_miller.htm

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2016, 11:19:28 PM »
Brother Ahmad,
Very well then, you apparently agree with my fundamental claim, there are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an.

You explain each of my objections by explaining that Allah was using words understandable by 7th century man.  This seems an odd assertion given the notion that Allah was presumably speaking eternal truths for all men of all times to come.  Nevertheless, you make no claims that I have noticed of any evidence of any scientific miracles in the Qur’an.

Your primary claim seems to be that when the words of the Qur’an are translated in their broadest sense they are at least not incompatible with our modem understandings of science.

So then we seem to agree, there are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an, or do you have a specific claim to any?

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2016, 05:03:41 AM »
-   “…you apparently agree with my fundamental claim…”
No, I don’t agree. What I am saying is that for essentially anything that could have been included in the Qur’an, there would’ve always been some person in the world who was going to say: not good enough. This is the reason creationists won’t believe that the Earth is billions of years old or why “HIV Truthers” won’t accept that AIDS is caused by HIV. No amount of evidence is going to be enough for them. Whatever evidence they are provided with, they just say that it’s just a co-incidence or that more proof is still required. For such people, I would suggest they follow the Occam’s Razor principle.

-   “… This seems an odd assertion given the notion that Allah was presumably speaking eternal truths for all men of all times to come…”
OK, I’m going to give an example for exactly this, but I’m pretty sure you are still not going to be satisfied. In the starting verses of the Qur’an’s 30th chapter, God talks about a major defeat that the Byzantines had suffered at the hands of the Persians and predicts decisive Byzantine victory within a period of the next three to nine years, which actually happened even though the Persians had reached up to Egypt. Now, the defeat of the Byzantines that the Qur’an was referring to had occurred in an area for which the Qur’an uses the term “adna al-ard”. This was understood to mean as “the nearest land” because the Roman defeat took place in the nearest Roman land to the Arab region. But this term can also mean “the lowest land” as this meaning is available in Arabic dictionaries and is used as such in several verses of the Noble Quran. Interestingly, now we know that the area of the Dead Sea basin, in addition to being the nearest Roman occupied land to the Arabian Peninsula, is also the lowest point of dry land on earth.
Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20140504150013/http:/www.onislam.net/english/health-and-science/faith-and-the-sciences/464520-the-fulfilled-prophecy-of-surat-ar-rum.html?the_Sciences=

Now again you are going to argue that this is just a co-incidence, but the fact remains, in terms of probability this possibility is extremely unlikely. Think of all the variables and possible permutations involved here.

-   “Your primary claim seems to be that when the words of the Qur’an are translated in their broadest sense they are at least not incompatible with our modem understandings of science.”
When the Qur’an talks about all living things made from water, or that the heavens and Earth were once joined together or that celestial bodies rotate or other similar instances, the similarity to actual science definitely does not appear to be in the “broadest sense”. For me, it is pretty specific.

On a final note, perhaps if you can explain exactly what is the evidence that has convinced you to believe that there is no God, might give me an idea of what evidence you actually deem as satisfactory or believable.

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2016, 05:06:15 AM »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Ahmad,

Please visit this link: www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm

In it, you'll see me quoting 7 encyclopedic dictionaries that detail the meanings of the Noble Words used in the Glorious Quran.  The Words are Scientific Miracles.  I will thoroughly refute Stardusty here.  The Glorious Quran has many STUNNING Scientific Miracles.  I will thoroughly demonstrate all of this in my upcoming response, insha'Allah.

The main section to the Glorious Quran's Scientific Miracles is at:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

Take care,
Osama Abdallah