Author Topic: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an  (Read 59642 times)

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Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2016, 10:20:11 PM »
Brother Ahmad,
Ok, so you do not agree with my claim that there are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an, yet I did not notice you make any specific claims of a scientific miracle in the Qur'an.

“On a final note, perhaps if you can explain exactly what is the evidence that has convinced you to believe that there is no God, might give me an idea of what evidence you actually deem as satisfactory or believable.”

Thank you very much indeed for raising this point.  I have been meaning to get into this and I appreciate you bringing it up.

What is a scientific miracle in an ancient text?

First let me say what it is not:
A statement that could have been a simple observation available at that time.
A vague statement that is open to multiple interpretations as may be conveniently fit into facts found out later, as is commonly a tactic used by so called psychics.
Statements that are incorrect in their most direct meaning and can at most be considered possible if a very broad interpretation is used.
A statement written as a prediction but actually addressing events prior the writing of the earliest extant copy of the alleged prediction.
A numerological association that could have been intentionally constructed by human beings deeply dedicated to such a task.

Here is what a scientific miracle in an ancient text would look like if there were such a thing.  I cannot give you a specific example in an actual text because there are no scientific miracles appearing in any ancient text:
A statement commensurate with the knowledge and articulation capacities of an infinite god. such that the messenger clearly is stating such detail so completely out of his contemporary knowledge base that the only possible explanation is that some superhuman intelligence must have told the prophet what to say. (In this case the most likely explanation would be a visitation by space aliens, not a god, but we do not necessarily have to go into that).

Here are a few examples invented for the purposes of illustration:
Gabriel told me today to recite for all the world to hear that there are 92 fundamental atoms to be discovered on this Earth, and 5 of them are essential to the construction of a structure within our bodies too small for us to see, yet it contains the instructions needed to construct each of us.

Gabriel told me to tell you folks that diseases such as smallpox and the common cold are caused, not by demons, but by tiny creatures that are too small for us to see.  When these tiny unseen creatures invade our bodies we become sick.

Gabriel told me to say to everybody that the points of light in the night sky are just like our sun, but a thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand paces distant, except the wandering lights that shine with a steady light, which are actually worlds like our own Earth.  All these worlds and our earth move around the sun in orbits with the fundamental shape of a curve that is expressed as x divided by a times x divided by a plus y divided by b times y divided by b all to equal one.

Gabriel gave me another message for you folks that energy equals mass times the speed of light times the speed of light.  I have no idea what that means but he said one day humanity will understand it and use it to build weapons of terrible destructive power.

As for what convinced me there is no god I would like to emphasize your well-chosen words, that I am convinced.  I do not make the strong claim of being able to absolutely prove there is no god, since I am unable to prove the universal negative.

I turned away from my Christian bible lessons at an early age.  As a child I asked questions like how did all the little creatures make it from Australia and Antarctica and America to the ark, and back again?  Where did the wives of the children of Adam come from?  Why would an infinitely powerful being need to rest?  If god already knows everything in the future what good does it do to pray, is he going to maybe change his mind?  Why would an all knowing god act like such a murderous monster in the time of Moses but then tell us to turn the other cheek a few thousand years later?

Having rejected Christianity for its many absurdities I realized all the religions and all the gods were all just silly inventions of superstitious men.  I was 12 and in the many years since I have continually reexamined my adolescent self-realization of the absence of any god.  I must confess a degree of pride in having come to this realization at a relatively early age.

I am not sure if As'salamu Alaikum is the correct form as a valediction so I will close in my own vernacular
Peace Bro

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2016, 11:34:13 AM »
Brother Ahmad,
Ok, so you do not agree with my claim that there are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an, yet I did not notice you make any specific claims of a scientific miracle in the Qur'an.

“On a final note, perhaps if you can explain exactly what is the evidence that has convinced you to believe that there is no God, might give me an idea of what evidence you actually deem as satisfactory or believable.”

Thank you very much indeed for raising this point.  I have been meaning to get into this and I appreciate you bringing it up.

What is a scientific miracle in an ancient text?

First let me say what it is not:
A statement that could have been a simple observation available at that time.
A vague statement that is open to multiple interpretations as may be conveniently fit into facts found out later, as is commonly a tactic used by so called psychics.
Statements that are incorrect in their most direct meaning and can at most be considered possible if a very broad interpretation is used.
A statement written as a prediction but actually addressing events prior the writing of the earliest extant copy of the alleged prediction.
A numerological association that could have been intentionally constructed by human beings deeply dedicated to such a task.

Here is what a scientific miracle in an ancient text would look like if there were such a thing.  I cannot give you a specific example in an actual text because there are no scientific miracles appearing in any ancient text:
A statement commensurate with the knowledge and articulation capacities of an infinite god. such that the messenger clearly is stating such detail so completely out of his contemporary knowledge base that the only possible explanation is that some superhuman intelligence must have told the prophet what to say. (In this case the most likely explanation would be a visitation by space aliens, not a god, but we do not necessarily have to go into that).

Here are a few examples invented for the purposes of illustration:
Gabriel told me today to recite for all the world to hear that there are 92 fundamental atoms to be discovered on this Earth, and 5 of them are essential to the construction of a structure within our bodies too small for us to see, yet it contains the instructions needed to construct each of us.

Gabriel told me to tell you folks that diseases such as smallpox and the common cold are caused, not by demons, but by tiny creatures that are too small for us to see.  When these tiny unseen creatures invade our bodies we become sick.

Gabriel told me to say to everybody that the points of light in the night sky are just like our sun, but a thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand paces distant, except the wandering lights that shine with a steady light, which are actually worlds like our own Earth.  All these worlds and our earth move around the sun in orbits with the fundamental shape of a curve that is expressed as x divided by a times x divided by a plus y divided by b times y divided by b all to equal one.

Gabriel gave me another message for you folks that energy equals mass times the speed of light times the speed of light.  I have no idea what that means but he said one day humanity will understand it and use it to build weapons of terrible destructive power.

As for what convinced me there is no god I would like to emphasize your well-chosen words, that I am convinced.  I do not make the strong claim of being able to absolutely prove there is no god, since I am unable to prove the universal negative.

I turned away from my Christian bible lessons at an early age.  As a child I asked questions like how did all the little creatures make it from Australia and Antarctica and America to the ark, and back again?  Where did the wives of the children of Adam come from?  Why would an infinitely powerful being need to rest?  If god already knows everything in the future what good does it do to pray, is he going to maybe change his mind?  Why would an all knowing god act like such a murderous monster in the time of Moses but then tell us to turn the other cheek a few thousand years later?

Having rejected Christianity for its many absurdities I realized all the religions and all the gods were all just silly inventions of superstitious men.  I was 12 and in the many years since I have continually reexamined my adolescent self-realization of the absence of any god.  I must confess a degree of pride in having come to this realization at a relatively early age.

I am not sure if As'salamu Alaikum is the correct form as a valediction so I will close in my own vernacular
Peace Bro

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2016, 12:17:10 PM »
Brother Osama,
First, please allow me to apologize for the duplicate post.  I received several server error messages, possibly due to a problem on my end, and it seemed like my post did not go through the first time.

I have gone through a number of the links you provide (not all because there are links within links so following them all to their conclusion would take a great deal of time).

I just cannot find anything that is in any way indicative of miraculous origins.  I have education and experience in math and science.  I really enjoy math and I have a collection of calculus books I have read and worked from.  I opened up some scans that show your own application of numerology to the Qur'an.

I see the pictures of the nebulae, your citations about human development, and a number of other claims you make about miracles of science in the Qur'an.

They are all easily explained as either simple observations well within the capabilities of 7th century men, or a few general inferences lacking anything close to miraculous specificity, or numerological constructions well within the capacity of 7th century men to construct.  Do you have any specific citations of the Qur'an that are not of this kind?



Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2016, 12:44:08 PM »
Quote
They are all easily explained as either simple observations well within the capabilities of 7th century men, or a few general inferences lacking anything close to miraculous specificity, or numerological constructions well within the capacity of 7th century men to construct.  Do you have any specific citations of the Qur'an that are not of this kind?

As'salamu Alaikum Stardusty,

You should step back a little bit and understand what Allah Almighty is telling you in the Glorious Quran.  Allah Almighty has responded to the likes of you in the Holy Book by giving you the Number 19 Miracle, especially that you exist today in the advanced computer age.  He, the Almighty Said in Noble Verses 74:30-37, that He based the Glorious Quran on the Number 19 Miracle for the following reasons:
   
(a)-  As a trial to the disbelievers.
(b)-  To help strengthen the Believers' faith more.
(c)-  To assure the disbelievers that Islam is Divine.
(d)-  Because it is one of the Greatest Signs and Miracles!



#5 is for you:

[074:030] Over it are Nineteen.

[074:031] And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; AND WE HAVE FIXED THEIR NUMBER ONLY (1) as a trial for Unbelievers,- (2) in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, (3) and the Believers may increase in Faith,- (4) and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, (5) and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth God intend by this ?" Thus doth God leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than awarning to mankind.

[074:032] Nay, verily: By the Moon,

[074:033] And by the Night as it retreateth,

[074:034] And by the Dawn as it shineth forth,-

[074:035] This is but one of the MIGHTY ONES (Miracles).

[074:036] A warning to mankind,-

[074:037] To any of you that chooses to press forward, or to follow behind;-


So my advise to you, as your fellow human is:

1-  To step back.
2-  Remove the arrogance of the atheists from you.  You're used to arguing against books that are corrupt and full of scientific blunders.
3-  See the Glorious Quran with a different lense and attitude.

This is a Divine Book from the True and Sovereign GOD Almighty of this Universe.  You are messing with your Salvation and you are messing with Fire.  You said you were 68 years old.  This means you have passed the age 40, which is the Age of Wisdom:

www.answering-christianity.com/mercy_of_allah.htm

We've given you the STUNNING NUMERICAL MIRACLES of the Glorious Quran, and we've given you STUNNING PROPHECIES, and we've given you STUNNING Scientific Miracles.  You dismissed all of them as nothing.  I hope you see the Message of Allah Almighty for you in Noble Verses 74:30-37, above.  And again, visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links


I hope this helps, Stardusty.  Feel free to always share your thoughts.  I just hope that you change your attitude towards the Glorious Quran, because BELIEVE YOU ME, it is not a mere book.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2016, 02:50:23 PM »
Brother Osama,
I will accept the Qur'an as divine when I become aware that a part of it is by necessity so advanced in its content as to have been impossible to construct except by a god.

Your attempts at numerology are easily explained as, at most, intentional constructions well within the ability of 7th century men to construct.

I have read your link
http://www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm
previously and addressed it previously.  You are offering no new information and no specific rebuttals to my disproof of your claims.  Therefore your claims to miracles remain conclusively refuted by me.

Muslims of the 7th century were highly capable in numerology.  They knew how to count, multiply, divide, write, and perform some very extensive arithmetic calculations.

Perhaps the simplest of your examples to attribute to ordinary human mathematics is your assertion of the 950 miracle, stated in the link you gave me:
“Noble Surah (Chapter) Nuh (Noah) is written in exactly 950 Noble Letters”
“Prophet Nuh lived among his people for 950 years”
Ok, fine.  It would be a very simple matter for any author to write a chapter about Noah that uses “950 noble letters”.  All the author has to do is write a description of Noah and count the letters, just like you did.  If you can do it so could he.  If there are not enough letters all the author need do is write more sentences.  If too many letters then eliminate sentences. 

All the author needed to do is keep writing and counting and editing until the desired “950 noble letters” were used.  This is a very simple process that requires no god.

Your other numerological claims to miraculous origins fail for the same reason, they are within the capabilities of 7th century men to intentionally construct, and therefore of no value as evidence for a miraculous origin claim.

Other than your failed claims to numerological miracles do you have any other specific claims to scientific miracles in the Qur’an?  I have read them on your links and refuted them explicitly above.  You have offered nothing in the way of specific rebuttals to any of my refutations.

Do you have any specific rebuttal to the fact that the description of human development found in the Qur’an is nothing more than an oversimplified and largely erroneous as well as highly incomplete description, easily obtainable by simply examining the products of miscarriage or contents of a perished pregnant female?

Care to explain the patently false assertion in the Qur’an you inexplicably cite as a scientific miracle?
[055:019]  He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together:
[055:020]  Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/separation_of_salty_seas_waters_miracle.htm
Sometimes there appears to be a barrier between dissimilar masses of water, but in fact the Qur’an makes a gross error in saying the water does not transgress such an apparent barrier.  In truth the waters do mix at the apparent barrier.

Here is an interesting video of such a barrier far from Muhammad and therefore a miracle candidate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnz_bxyG3gU
Now here is a much more highly produced video of the same phenomenon, and the narrator goes on and on about the waters not mixing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXRW18ty0Ag
But at the end, she contradicts herself and says they will merge in time!

So, the truth is that the water from melting glaciers contains materials that make if green, and where that mass of water meets the Pacific Ocean water, which is deep blue, there appears to be a boundary.  But that apparent boundary is where the waters mix.  Of course the waters mix, they have no place else to go.  All outflows from a continent must mix with the ocean water.

Mariners have long known that when sailing along a coast if the water becomes fresh when they are near the mouth of a large river.  The rainwater or ice melt water flows out to sea and mixes with the saltwater of the ocean but the concentration of salt decreases as one approaches the mouth of the river.

Muhammad was a wealthy traveling businessman after he married his first wife.  Then he went on to conquer and rule all of Arabia.  The simplest explanation is that he gained knowledge of these apparent barriers from his seafaring trading contacts who mistakenly thought these apparent barriers meant the waters don’t mix.

Therefore the error of the Qur’an easily explained.

No miracles and no Allah required.

“Glorious Quran, because BELIEVE YOU ME, it is not a mere book.”
Sorry, brother Osama, you have given me no evidence by which I ought to believe you.

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2016, 05:16:19 PM »
As'salamu Alaikum Stardusty,

Please pay attention to this simple example to understand that the 950 Letters in Surat Nuh could not have been fabricated by any man:




The Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, - peace be upon him, - NEVER CLAIMED this Miracle.  In fact, he never claimed ANY OF THE SCIENTIFIC MIRACLES in the Glorious Quran.  So you can't say that he intentionally made it.  And he couldn't have made it because the DRAWN LETTERS from VOWELS were not yet determined at the time.  Allah Almighty hasn't revealed it to the Prophet through Angel Gabriel as they were both writing the Glorious Quran on paper. 


The ORIGINAL Quran was Kept Safely with Muhammad and Ali:

There is also strong evidence that Caliph Ali was with them, and was a keeper of the Glorious Quran, since he was to Muhammad as Aaron was to Moses, and we know in the Glorious Quran, the THIKR OF MOSES came down to both Moses and his WAZEER Harun (Aaron).  Peace be upon all of them.  And in the Quran, Allah Almighty called the Quran the THIKR that was sent down to Muhammad:

[025:035]  (Before this,) We sent Moses The Book, and appointed his brother Aaron with him as minister (WAZEERA وزيرا);

[021:048]  In the past We granted to Moses and Aaron the criterion (for judgment), and a Light and a Message (THIKR ذكرا) for those who would do right,-

Allah Almighty inspired both Moses and Aaron:
[010:087]  We inspired Moses and his brother with this Message: "Provide dwellings for your people in Egypt, make your dwellings into places of worship, and establish regular prayers: and give glad tidings to those who believe!"

The Quran is the THIKR:
[015:009]  We have, without doubt, sent down the Message (الذكر); and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

Ali to Muhammad is as Aaron to Moses:
www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ali+was+to+muhammad+as+aaron+was+to+moses

Ali had the SELF of Muhammad:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali
http://ismailignosis.com/2015/07/07/imam-ali-declared-the-successor-of-prophet-muhammad-in-sunni-hadith-literature/
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=caliph+ali+is+the+self+of+prophet+muhammad


In the Glorious Quran, the SELF can enter multiple people:

[089:027]  (To the righteous soul will be said:) "O (thou) soul SELF (النفس), in (complete) rest and satisfaction!
[089:028]  "Come back thou to thy Lord,- well pleased (thyself), and well-pleasing unto Him!
[089:029]  "Enter thou, then, among My devotees!
[089:030]  "Yea, enter thou My Heaven!


Allah Almighty spoke about the SELF in the singular, and then Commanded it to enter HIS DEVOTEES in the plural.  Now whether one wishes to agree with this or not, that's their problem.  But the fact does remain that according to OUR SUNNI HADITHS, Ali was created from Muhammad's NAFS (Self).  Perhaps a Nafs of Prophethood and/or of High Stature.  The details about the NAFS (self) and ROUH (Spirit) remain in the unknown, and they are part of the World of Command of Allah Almighty.  And Allah Almighty did tell us that only little was communicated to us.  Please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/quran_creator_or_created.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/holy_spirit.htm

 
Ali did probably receive Divine Inspirations from Allah Almighty like Aaron did in Noble Verse 10:87.  But the Divine Revelations, the THIKRs, were only sent to Moses and Muhammad.  Aaron and Ali were only Ministers.  For more details, please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac11.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2286.msg10434.html#msg10434
www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2087.msg9018.html#msg9018
www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2087.msg9019.html#msg9019
www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2087.msg9024.html#msg9024
www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2087.msg9048.html#msg9048
www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/board,42.0.html





The Scientific Miracles for the Muslims in Advanced Ages:

Allah Almighty left it for us, the Muslims and people in general who live in the Advanced Ages such as ours today, to discover the Quran's STUNNING Numerical and Scientific Miracles today under our advanced computer technology where we can do split second searches, counts and analysis.  Allah Almighty did Promise:

"We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and INSIDE THEIR SELVES, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things?  (The Noble Quran, 41:53)"

Please visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/sci_prophecy.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac3.htm#prophecies
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links


And why should this be a surprise to anyone?  The Quran is a Divine Miracle.  Islam's Miracle is the Glorious Quran Itself.  And this Divine Miracle is for all times and all generations and all places till THE DAY OF JUDGMENT COMES.  Allah Almighty did Say:

[075:016]  Move not thy tongue, O Prophet, with the revelation of the Qur'an that thou mayest hasten to preserve it.
[075:017]  Surely, upon US rests its collection and its recital.
[075:018]  So when WE recite it, then follow thou its recital.
[075:019]  Then upon US rests the expounding thereof.








The Number 19 Miracle:

I already gave you Allah Almighty's declaration about the Number 19 being one of the Glorious Quran's MIGHTY MIRACLES.  So you can't come back and say that the Quran has no Scientific Miracles in it, or the Quran makes no reference to them.  No, they're there, and they were mostly made for the latter Muslims to discover.

So your following quote is incorrect:

Quote
ll the author needed to do is keep writing and counting and editing until the desired “950 noble letters” were used.  This is a very simple process that requires no god.


And we've already shown you other STUNNING Numerical Miracles in the Glorious Quran.  One of them is:

The Glorious Quran has 114 Chapters. The sum of those Chapters is 6555 (1+2+...+114 = 6555). There are also 6236 Noble Verses in the Glorious Quran. Now, IF YOU ADD EACH CHAPTER # with the number of its Verses, then you get a list of numbers. So 1 (first Chapter) + 7 (# of its Verses) = 8. Do this for all Chapters.

1-  The sum of the odd numbers from the list = 6555.
2-  The sum of the even numbers from the list = 6236.


Every time we give you a mind-blowing Miracle you arrogantly dismiss it.  And your following claim is also incorrect:

Quote
Your other numerological claims to miraculous origins fail for the same reason, they are within the capabilities of 7th century men to intentionally construct, and therefore of no value as evidence for a miraculous origin claim.

These are not just simple arithmetic.  The Glorious Quran's TEXT IS A MIRACLE.  This is what you are dismally failing to see.  Again, visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm

You keep missing the point!



The Other Scientific Miracles:

As to the Scientific Miracles in the Glorious Quran, all you are doing is dismiss the Miracles, despite that I've THOROUGHLY SHOWN the definitions of the Noble Words using 7 encyclopedic dictionaries, and showed how they were used even before Islam in the Arabs' poems, and how they were used after Islam in the Hadiths and in the Glorious Quran.  Visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm

So no, the Miracles were not just simple human observation.  The Miracles of:

1-  Embryology.
2-  Biology.
3-  Astronomy.
4-  Geology.
5-  Mathematics
6-  Archeology.
7-  AMPLE STUNNING Prophecies.

They are all there detailed in the Glorious Quran.  Visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links



The earth is spherical and is traveling (moving) in space:

Furthermore for you, the Glorious Quran stated in multiple Noble Verses that the earth is:

1- Spherical.
2- Suspended in Space.
3- Rotating around itself. (emphasis on dahaha and its derivatives)
4- Is traveling in Space.

5- Also, all celestial bodies are يعرجون Yaa'rujoon (traveling in orbits) in space.  The countless orbits in the Universe, and the day-layer reveals the sun's brightness.  This video is about Noble Verses 32:5, 34:2, 57:4, 70:3-4 and others, and the Arabic words عرج , عروج , معارج  and  معراج  that all refer to "going in an orbital and curvy path" in the Glorious Quran and our Islamic Texts.

Visit: www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline StardustyPsyche

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2016, 08:03:06 PM »
“In fact, he never claimed ANY OF THE SCIENTIFIC MIRACLES in the Glorious Quran.  So you can't say that he intentionally made it.”
Right, Muhammad need not have constructed this numerological association.  All that is required is that some scribe prior to or including the scribe of the earliest extant copy of this passage constructed this numerological association.

Writers are well aware of the sounds the script represents.  If the script is absent the vowels in writing the reader mentally fills them in. If a mark is made to represent a vowel then that is an explicit representation of it.  Since you have derived a system of counting consonants and vowels then a 7th century man is capable of deriving the same system of counting consonants and vowels.

You might reply
[015:009]  We have, without doubt, sent down the Message (الذكر); and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
at my suggestion that a later author could manipulate the words in the Qur’an to his own liking.  That is a tautology or circular reasoning or begging the question.  You are using the asserted divinity of the Qur’an as evidence that it could not have been manipulated in a way to merely give the appearance of divinity.

“And he couldn't have made it because the DRAWN LETTERS from VOWELS were not yet determined at the time”  But the mark you call an Alif apparently was there at the time, so a human being could have constructed the same system of numerology as you have today.


“The Glorious Quran has 114 Chapters. The sum of those Chapters is 6555 (1+2+...+114 = 6555). There are also 6236 Noble Verses in the Glorious Quran. Now, IF YOU ADD EACH CHAPTER # with the number of its Verses, then you get a list of numbers. So 1 (first Chapter) + 7 (# of its Verses) = 8. Do this for all Chapters.

1-  The sum of the odd numbers from the list = 6555.
2-  The sum of the even numbers from the list = 6236.

Every time we give you a mind-blowing Miracle you arrogantly dismiss it.  “

What exactly is so mind blowing about 6555 odd numbers from a list and 6236 even numbers from a list?  In a list of numbers generated algorithmically from human writing one would expect roughly equal numbers of even and odd numbers.

I have looked at this about 6 times and I cannot even figure out what your claim is.  Of course, one explanation is that I am a really stupid guy, but my math grades and my technical successes tell me otherwise. 

It’s not arrogance so much as befuddlement as to what you are even claiming to be miraculous about these two roughly equal numbers.

“Again, visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm
You keep missing the point!”
Indeed, since I have visited that link many times and cut and pasted from it extensively above in order to comment on it and much of it does indeed seem entirely pointless to me.  But, I enjoy numbers in general so I keep scratching my head trying to figure out how you consider those relatively simple arithmetic expressions to be somehow necessarily of divine origin.

“So no, the Miracles were not just simple human observation.  The Miracles of:
1-  Embryology.”
I have noticed you do not really do much conversing on points I raise.  Mostly you just copy and paste links and lists I have already refuted.

For example, embryology.
Anybody can look at the products of miscarriage and say it is a “clot” or a “chewed thing”.

Your links completely fail to address this obvious refutation, and all the others I have made, so, sorry Brother Osama, but my assertion that there are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an stands utterly uncontested in any meaningful way by you.

But, please do tell me how the descriptions of “clot” or “chewed thing” could not have been made by simple observation of the products of miscarriage.


1-   Spherical.”
The Greeks measured the diameter of the spherical Earth, no miracle

2- Suspended in Space.
Where else would it be?  Most classical models have the Earth surrounded by some void or heaven or space.

3- Rotating around itself. (emphasis on dahaha and its derivatives)
Couldn’t find this in your below citations

4- Is traveling in Space.
Not in the below citations

5- Also, all celestial bodies are يعرجون Yaa'rujoon (traveling in orbits) in space.  The countless orbits in the Universe, and the day-layer reveals the sun's brightness.  This video is about Noble Verses
32:5,  the below is gibberish, what miracle is this nonsense supposed to be?  Is it a day, a thousand, or fifty thousand years?  The Qur’an claims to be clear, obviously another false claim.
Sahih International: He arranges [each] matter from the heaven to the earth; then it will ascend to Him in a Day, the extent of which is a thousand years of those which you count.

34:2, more gibberish
Sahih International: He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what ascends therein. And He is the Merciful, the Forgiving.

57:4,  this is worse than gibberish, it is just flat out wrong that the heavens and the Earth were made in 6 days.  Obviously, this is a Genesis retelling and Genesis gets it wrong wrong wrong.
Sahih International: It is He who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne. He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what ascends therein; and He is with you wherever you are. And Allah , of what you do, is Seeing.

70:3-4  more gibberish, no, the heavens and the Earth were not created in 6 times fifty thousand years
Sahih International: [It is] from Allah , owner of the ways of ascent.
The angels and the Spirit will ascend to Him during a Day the extent of which is fifty thousand years.


“and others, and the Arabic words عرج , عروج , معارج  and  معراج  that all refer to "going in an orbital and curvy path" in the Glorious Quran and our Islamic Texts.”
Really?  Where? 7 separate translations at corpus.quran.com make no mention of it in the passages you cite.

I know that for a devout Muslim is can be very unpleasant, even painful or upsetting to hear something they feel so deeply about called “gibberish” or “nonsense” or “simple observation”.  But, when we grow to be men we must deal with truth.

All your attempts at demonstrating a scientific miracle in the Qur’an are false.  All my refutations of your assertions stand utterly unrebutted by you.

I hope one day the light of reason shines though your fog of faith.

Peace Bro

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2016, 09:26:14 PM »
As'salamu Alaikum Stardusty,

I have added the following to my post above:

Allah Almighty left it for us, the Muslims and people in general who live in the Advanced Ages such as ours today, to discover the Quran's STUNNING Numerical and Scientific Miracles today under our advanced computer technology where we can do split second searches, counts and analysis.  Allah Almighty did Promise:

"We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and INSIDE THEIR SELVES, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things?  (The Noble Quran, 41:53)"

Please visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/sci_prophecy.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac3.htm#prophecies
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links




No Citations?

Quote
Couldn’t find this in your below citations

Did you even visit: www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm ?  Please do, and click on the links given to you.

Also, the Noble Verses that you quoted did use the Noble Arabic Words that I spelled out.  And I did thoroughly define them in the link that I just mentioned.



Your Hate of GOD:

Even in describing your situation in the Glorious Quran, Allah Almighty put it in a Scientific Miracle:

"Whomever GOD wills to guide, He renders his chest wide open to Submission. And whomever He wills to send astray, He renders his chest intolerant and tight, like one who climbs towards the sky. GOD thus places a curse upon those who refuse to believe.  (The Noble Quran, 6:125)"

"And even if We open to them a gateway of heaven, so that they ascend into it all the while, They would certainly say: Only our eyes have been covered over, rather we are an enchanted people. And certainly We have made strongholds in the heaven and We have made it fair seeming to the beholders.  (The Noble Quran, 15:14-16)"


"By the sun and its radiant light, and the moon that trails (and reflects) its light. By the day that magnifies and glorifies (جلاها) its brightness(The Noble Quran, 91:1-5)"

Please visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/space_pressure_in_noble_quran.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/sun_rays_miracle.htm




Your Fate:

Quote
All your attempts at demonstrating a scientific miracle in the Qur’an are false.  All my refutations of your assertions stand utterly unrebutted by you.

Mr. Stardusty, I am not sure if anything could convince you.  You are too stubborn.  Perhaps Allah Almighty has sealed your heart and mind, and YOUR FATE:

"Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).  (The Noble Quran, 2:18)"

"The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat- herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom(The Noble Quran, 2:171)"

"It is he whom God guides, that is on true Guidance; but he whom He leaves astray - for such wilt thou find no protector besides Him. On the Day of Judgment We shall gather, them together, prone on their faces, blind, dumb, and deaf: their abode will be Hell: every time it shows abatement, We shall increase from them the fierceness of the Fire.  (The Noble Quran, 17:97)"


[045:023]  Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire? God has, knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart (and understanding), and put a cover on his sight. Who, then, will guide him after God (has withdrawn Guidance)? Will ye not then receive admonition?

Please visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/islam.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/blessed_jesus.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_creating.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/convert_christians.htm


Peace to you as well.  I ask Allah Almighty to RE-OPEN your heart and mind, and to lead you or to continue to lead you to Islam.  Ameen.  Heaven and Hell are real, Stardusty.  They are no joking matter.  And you should humble yourself when you deal with the Divine Signs of Allah Almighty. 

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2016, 03:45:03 AM »
Brother Osama,

You have accused me of hating god
“Your Hate of GOD:”
Please explain to me how one hates a thing that one is convinced does not exist.

“Did you even visit: www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm ?  Please do, and click on the links given to you.”
Yes, and I went to corpus.quran for each of the verses cited at that link.  I commented on each of them above.  They are a mix of gibberish and outright false statements.

“Mr. Stardusty, I am not sure if anything could convince you. “
Yes, there are evidences that could convince me.  Thus far you have presented none.  I know you feel you have.  Brother Osama, and I mean that truly, I do consider you as a brother in humanity, please realize, what you have presented in all your links and all your statements is so far removed from science that no infidel with a background in science education will find it even slightly persuasive.

You are not presenting science.  Not at all.  If you think you are then you are gravely mistaken.

“Please visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/islam.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/blessed_jesus.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_creating.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/convert_christians.htm
What does all this have to do with demonstrating scientific miracles in the Qur’an?

“Heaven and Hell are real,”
Ok, then please give me some real evidences for them.  Got any pictures?

The Christians say you are going to hell, you say the Christians are going to hell, and everybody says I am going to hell.  Thing is, nobody actually has any evidence hell actually exists, so that just does not frighten me.


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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2016, 04:13:59 AM »
Brother Hamza has some things to say.  I found this by following your links  :)

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/does-the-quran-contain-scientific-miracles-a-new-approach/

Peace Bro

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2016, 04:48:32 AM »
Brother Hamza has some things to say.  I found this by following your links  :)

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/does-the-quran-contain-scientific-miracles-a-new-approach/

Peace Bro

Thank you for the link, Stardusty, but it really doesn't refute a thing.  The brother said that he is uncertain about the Scientific Miracles, and also said that a growing number of Scholars and Academics are embracing this School; the school of the Glorious Quran does have ample and STUNNING Scientific Miracles in It.  So really, he has not refuted anything here.  And the growing number of scholars and academics adopting this school should give you a clear indication that there is something serious and real in the Holy Quran.

Furthermore, brother Hamza did not AT ALL address any of the Numerical Miracles, nor did he address the Number 19 Miracle, which Allah Almighty Said it is one of the GREATEST MIRACLES IN THE HOLY QURAN.  I already quoted that above.



Allah Almighty talked about the Scientific Miracles:

Also, and again, Allah Almighty left it for us, the Muslims and people in general who live in the Advanced Ages such as ours today, to discover the Quran's STUNNING Numerical and Scientific Miracles today under our advanced computer technology where we can do split second searches, counts and analysis.  Allah Almighty did Promise:

"We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and INSIDE THEIR SELVES, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things?  (The Noble Quran, 41:53)"

"...that it is the truth..." refers to the Glorious Quran being proven to be the Truth through the Scientific Signs that Allah Almighty will reveal in the Universe and in our Physiology, Biology and Embryology, and in the Numerical Miracles that all will prove that the Quran is indeed from our Creator, the Almighty.

Please visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/sci_prophecy.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac3.htm#prophecies
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links




Why not?

Why shouldn't Noble Verse 41:53 be considered a Divine Promise and Prophecy being fulfilled by Allah Almighty, Stardusty?  Why must every STUNNING Miracle and Prophecy be rejected according to you?  If the era of unveiling the Glorious Quran's Miracles, which we call today Scientific and Numerical Miracles, has begun, then why must you resist it and reject it as the infidels of old resisted and rejected the clear and evident and indisputable Truth and Signs and Miracles of Allah Almighty and his Prophets and Messengers, peace be upon all of them?  And worse, they even killed His Prophets and Messengers, and burned His Books.  And they called GOD Almighty's Miracles sorcery, magic, and lies.

I am telling you, Stardusty, Heaven and Hell are real!  The Glorious Quran tells us this.  And you are shipping yourself to the Doom of Hell with your stubbornness and blasphemies, by rejecting GOD Almighty, rejecting the Holy Quran, and rejecting Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

Yes, Heaven and Hell are VERY REAL!  Just like earth's pleasure, happiness, joy, pain, agony, bliss and fire are also real.  Heaven and Hell are real.  Why can't life be a little preview and/or demo for you and me by Allah Almighty about what to expect in the GRAND LIFE in the Day of Judgment?  Why must you chose the Doom of Hell when you have the Bliss of Heaven?  And this is no corrupt Bible or any other corrupt book claim.  The Glorious Quran has proven Itself over and over and over again to be the Divine Truth of GOD Almighty.  Allah Almighty called the Glorious Quran the Book that is "Muhaymin" (مهيمن, "Has all Authority above all") above all books.  See Noble Verse 5:48.  So why not accept It?  Why must you be on the side of the infidels?

Regarding the Holy Quran's Authority, please visit: www.answering-christianity.com/was_muta_immoral.htm

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2016, 02:28:00 PM »
As'salamu Alaikum akhi Dawud,

May Allah Almighty bless you.  But brother, as I requested before, please do not post the DNA and RNA stuff here, or any related nonsense here.  Taking partial letters from random words and say they are D and N and A is nonsense. Same with with RNA and NTRA and all other nonsense that you posted.  And I told you also that using this method, we can also extract the F*** word and any word we like!

Please do not spam this board with this nonsense, akhi.  And worse, please do not make a mockery out of the Holy Quran's Scientific and Numerical Miracles, akhi.  I already made this request before, dear brother, and removed these posts before.

Please present your case here as to why they should be allowed.  Let's discuss it here in the open.  Show me where I am going wrong, please.  Don't just impose them on us like this.

Either way, may Allah Almighty bless you for your efforts and sincerity.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2016, 03:34:05 PM »
As'salamu Alaikum akhi Dawud,

May Allah Almighty bless you.  But brother, as I requested before, please do not post the DNA and RNA stuff here, or any related nonsense here.  Taking partial letters from random words and say they are D and N and A is nonsense. Same with with RNA and NTRA and all other nonsense that you posted.  And I told you also that using this method, we can also extract the F*** word and any word we like!

Please do not spam this board with this nonsense, akhi.  And worse, please do not make a mockery out of the Holy Quran's Scientific and Numerical Miracles, akhi.  I already made this request before, dear brother, and removed these posts before.

Please present your case here as to why they should be allowed.  Let's discuss it here in the open.  Show me where I am going wrong, please.  Don't just impose them on us like this.

Either way, may Allah Almighty bless you for your efforts and sincerity.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

i will explain why you are wrong

you say

"Taking partial letters from random words and say they are D and N and A is nonsense. "


if Allah use DNA separated from existing words that would be weakness in the quran beacuse imagine words wich nobody would understand 1400 years taking valuable place in the quran, that would not be logical

so instead doing that, by using letters DNA incorpaorated in existing words is actually double information in same text, wich is for me is clear evidence that the text is divine.


imagine if i knew future and i want to give people proof that this is my book, so i give an example from ancient times about a good woman called Edna

beacuse i know future when science of DNA will be officially started, i put name of Edna 3 times wich is most in entire book

18:65 There was a good relgious woman called Edna, Edna helped poor people and relatives wich cause many people to follow Edna as good example in this life.

every body can understand simple text, both old and new generations, everybody, and i choose to use Edna name exactly at precise position in my book so it correspond to the year when science of DNA/genetics will be started

beacuse nowhere else out of 6236 verses are letters next to each other 3 times except in that verse 18:65 ---> wich correspond to the year 1865 when DNA science started.

same method is with Neutron (NTRN), by using existing words where consonant letters for neutron is used is only in verse 18:39, AND NOWHERE ELSE IN THE QURAN. Neutron is 1,839 times heavier than electron, how can it be so, tell me out of 6236 verses only in that verse wich corresponds to its weight.

same it is with other examples. I call this double information in same text, only God can do something like this, there is no doubt in my mind that these examples are real, and no coincidences, beacuse there is no coincidence with God beacuse God knows everything that is why coincidence dont happen in his creation or his decisions.

i have explained why you are wrong on this matter, now explain to me why i am wrong here. By the why brother Osama did you read my other topic about Iron core miracle with 5100km=5100 verses ?

I have studied and analysed quranic miracles for 3 years now. by the way, when you give that odd and even example with chapter and verse numbers you should always mention golden ratio in that example between repretative and non-repetetive numbers.

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2016, 03:57:19 PM »
One more thing we cant extract f*** word since it is not enough that letters are in correct order next to eachother beacuse you need also other evidence wich suport it

For example dna is not enough if it was not mentioned in verse 18:65 , year 1865
Neutron ntrn is not enough if it was not mentioned 18:39, heavier 1,839 times than an electron
Venus and its inclination number verse 17:7, venus inclination 177 degrees
Halley comet(kewkab) astronomical object in verse 76, it takes 76 years for that comet to orbit the sun
Kaba mentioned first time in verse 2:125, kaba has lattitude 21 degrees 25 minutes
Raising to high place only in verse 19:57, first time in human history human raised an objectso high, sputnik satelit was launched year 1957
 
Do you really think tvat all these examples are coincidences?

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Re: There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2016, 10:21:23 PM »
Sorry brother Osama, but Hamza Tzortzis has called your assertions “an intellectual embarrassment” and “incoherent” as well as lacking “intellectual integrity”.

Hamza Tzortzis has explicitly refuted a number of your asserted scientific miracles.

Hamza Tzortzis is undoubtedly well aware of all your other asserted miracles and is unable to apply his criteria for verification of any of them as scientific miracles.

Hamza Tzortzis used to make the argument from embryology, as well as others.  He put his words to the test of public scrutiny and very much to his credit he has come to realize he was simply mistaken.  He has shown great intellectual integrity by having the courage to make a change in the face of reason and facts.

I sincerely invite you to examine the below words in context, consider the refutations I have made, and make a change.  I know that rejecting your faith altogether is a bridge too far for you, but your notion of scientific miracles in the Qur’an simply is not tenable.

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/does-the-quran-contain-scientific-miracles-a-new-approach/
“Regrettably, the scientific miracles narrative has become an intellectual embarrassment for Muslim apologists, including myself”

“It has become an intellectual embarrassment for Muslim apologists and it has exposed the lack of coherence in the way they have formulated the argument.”

“To claim that there is anything scientifically miraculous about a particular Qur’ānic verse is incoherent.”

“When claiming that something is miraculous it means that there is no plausible naturalistic explanation.”

“It is all a learning curve and an important part of developing intellectual integrity.”

“Although this proposed criteria to salvage the science in the Qur’ān narrative is still work in progress, I personally find it almost impossible to practically fulfill the above criteria.”