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Offline Uzair Ahmed

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Regarding Aisha age.
« on: January 20, 2016, 06:42:40 AM »
IT is said that Hazrat Aisha was six years old when her nikah was performed with Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) in Makkah, and nine years old when she moved in to live with her husband in Madina after Hijra.

This piece of misinformation has led to the wrong view that child marriage has the sanction of Islam. It must be noted that establishing the authenticity of hadiths, the narrators’ circumstances and the conditions at that time have to be correlated with historical facts. There is only one hadith by Hisham which suggests the age of Hazrat Aisha as being nine when she came to live with her husband.

Many authentic hadiths also show that Hisham’s narration is incongruous with several historical facts about the Prophet’s life, on which there is consensus. With reference to scholars such as Umar Ahmed Usmani, Hakim Niaz Ahmed and Habibur Rehman Kandhulvi, I would like to present some arguments in favour of the fact that Hazrat Aisha was at least 18 years old when her nikah was performed and at least 21 when she moved into the Prophet’s house to live with him.

According to Umar Ahmed Usmani, in Surah Al-Nisa, it is said that the guardian of the orphans should keep testing them, until they reach the age of marriage, before returning their property (4:6). From this scholars have concluded that the Quran sets a minimum age of marriage which is at least puberty. Since the approval of the girl has a legal standing, she cannot be a minor.

Hisham bin Urwah is the main narrator of this hadith. His life is divided into two periods: in 131A.H. the Madani period ended, and the Iraqi period started, when Hisham was 71 years old. Hafiz Zehbi has spoken about Hisham’s loss of memory in his later period. His students in Madina, Imam Malik and Imam Abu Hanifah, do not mention this hadith. Imam Malik and the people of Madina criticised him for his Iraqi hadiths.

All the narrators of this hadith are Iraqis who had heard it from Hisham. Allama Kandhulvi says that the words spoken in connection with Hazrat Aisha’s age were tissa ashara, meaning 19, when Hisham only heard (or remembered), tissa, meaning nine. Maulana Usmani thinks this change was purposely and maliciously made later.

Historian Ibn Ishaq in his Sirat Rasul Allah has given a list of the people who accepted Islam in the first year of the proclamation of Islam, in which Hazrat Aisha’s name is mentioned as Abu Bakr’s “little daughter Aisha”. If we accept Hisham’s calculations, she was not even born at that time.

Some time after the death of the Prophet’s first wife, Hazrat Khadija, Khawla suggested to the Prophet that he get married again, to a bikrun, referring to Hazrat Aisha (Musnad Ahmed). In Arabic bikrun is used for an unmarried girl who has crossed the age of puberty and is of marriageable age. The word cannot be used for a six-year-old girl.

Some scholars think that Hazrat Aisha was married off so early because in Arabia girls mature at an early age. But this was not a common custom of the Arabs at that time. According to Allama Kandhulvi, there is no such case on record either before or after Islam. Neither has this ever been promoted as a Sunnah of the Prophet. The Prophet married off his daughters Fatima at 21 and Ruquiyya at 23. Besides, Hazrat Abu Bakr, Aisha’s father, married off his eldest daughter Asma at the age of 26.

Hazrat Aisha narrates that she was present on the battlefield at the Battle of Badar (Muslim). This leads one to conclude that Hazrat Aisha moved into the Prophet’s house in 1 A.H. But a nine-year-old could not have been taken on a rough and risky military mission.

In 2 A.H, the Prophet refused to take boys of less than 15 years of age to the battle of Uhud. Would he have allowed a 10-year-old girl to accompany him? But Anas reported that he saw Aisha and Umme Sulaim carrying goatskins full of water and serving it to the soldiers (Bukhari). Umme Sulaim and Umme Ammara, the other women present at Uhud, were both strong, mature women whose duties were the lifting of the dead and injured, treating their wounds, carrying water in heavy goatskins, supplying ammunition and even taking up the sword.

Hazrat Aisha used the kunniat, the title derived from the name of a child, of Umme Abdullah after her nephew and adopted son. If she was six when her nikah was performed, she would have been only eight years his senior, hardly making him eligible for adoption. Also, a little girl could not have given up on ever having her own child and used an adopted child’s name for her kunniat.

Hazrat Aisha’s nephew Urwah once remarked that he was not surprised about her amazing knowledge of Islamic law, poetry and history because she was the wife of the Prophet and the daughter of Abu Bakr. If she was eight when her father migrated, when did she learn poetry and history from him?

There is consensus that Hazrat Aisha was 10 years younger than her elder sister Asma, whose age at the time of the hijrah, or migration to Madina, was about 28. It can be concluded that Hazrat Aisha was about 18 years old at migration. On her moving to the Prophet’s house, she was a young woman at 21. Hisham is the single narrator of the hadith whose authenticity is challenged, for it does not correlate with the many historical facts of the time.


Taken from http://www.dawn.com/news/696084/of-aishas-age-at-marriage

Brothers do you agree with the above points that author has given regarding the age of Aisha. The author says that Aisha age was not 6 or 9 but it was more than 19 years old. What are your views regarding it? Should we use these points to refute Islamophobia?

Offline arman114

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Re: Regarding Aisha age.
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2016, 09:09:29 AM »
I don't know why but I have a feeling that when she said 6 she was referring to six years from the time she accepted Islam. Even Christians also say that whoever does not believe in Jesus is dead. So Aisha (R.A) might have said six in emotions.
Sometimes there is a context behind numbers, for example we say 80s 90s, but this does not mean we are talking about first century because everybody knows that 80s is 1980. So there must be a context behind Aisha(R.A)'s age.

But Allah knows best.

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Regarding Aisha age.
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2016, 03:07:05 PM »
Asslam-o-Alaikum,

I have heard these or similar arguments presented numerous times. This arguments probably started from Maulana Muhammad Ali who in 1948 in a footnote of his book Living Thoughts of the Prophet Muhammad gave similar arguments.

As much as Muslims nowadays want to believe otherwise, the Muslim scholars who have much deeper understanding and knowledge of this issue are convinced that the lower age of Lady Aisha is the correct position.

A detailed rebuttal of all the usual points in this context had been performed here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20130831131153/http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=4604&CATE=1

I cannot personally comment on whether how reliable this rebuttal actually is, but these reasons are probably why learned Muslim scholars disregard the revisionist narrative.

Therefore, in my opinion it could end up being an embarrassment, if some Muslims try to use these to refute Islamophobia.

Reconciliation

If the above is assumed to be true, how can Muslims reconcile this issue? Unfortunately, it is much more complicated in the present context of ever-changing “moral ethics”. Nevertheless, I believe there is enough evidence to prove the morality of this act, only if a person is open minded enough to look beyond his subjective moral reasoning. Because it is pretty time consuming, Muslims trying to explain this are at a huge disadvantage.

The main problem is that virtually everyone assumes that psychological maturity is directly dependent on a person’s age. This is actually a myth. Individuals who had passed through puberty were sincerely considered as physically and psychosocially mature people in earlier times. There are several reasons that show this concept of theirs wasn’t incorrect.

Also,
Quote
... consider a scenario in which some decades from now, 25 years becomes the age of majority (i.e. the age of psychological maturity), which in fact corresponds to an actual biological threshold unlike the 18 years concept. A couple of centuries from now, people will probably be debating that a 26 years old (or older) male, marrying an 18 year old female in today’s time constituted an example of paedophilia.

If they do, then we know it would be fallacious to do so, because to the best of our knowledge, and taking under consideration legal and maybe some other requirements, 18-year-olds are generally sincerely considered as adult individuals in today’s times.

A somewhat structured argument is present in the following source link.
Source: https://ahmadcheemacollections.wordpress.com/books/islamic/the-issue-of-marriage-between-muhammad-pbuh-aisha-ra/the-detailed-explanation/
The above link is kind of a summary of several discourses I have had with atheists on this subject.

The main source for my article is:
http://www.muhaddith.org/earlymarriage/EarlyMarriage-part1.html
http://www.muhaddith.org/earlymarriage/EarlyMarriage-part2.html
This is the best concise article I’ve ever read on this issue, supported by many references from objective sources.

Child Marriages still Allowed?

First of all, “Child Marriages” have never been allowed in Islam or at-least the consummation of these marriages. What Muslims have differed about is the definition of “Children”. Just two centuries ago, puberty in most cases was the defining point of physical and psychosocial maturity in most of the world. Because Muslim scholars are generally speaking mostly conservative people, they have been hesitant to change their views even in the face of mounting evidence that shows, contrary to earlier times, psychosocial maturity is delayed during today's times.

According to one author: because of the contemporary delay in maturity, marriage at puberty today would violate 6 basic Islamic rules:

1) “Rushd”, psychological maturity, or “prudent judgement” is required before marriage.
2) No one should harm anyone else.
3) People’s best interests must be observed.
4) No one should bear any burden beyond their capacity.
5) Governments and guardians are entrusted to act correctly.
6) Compliance to “urf”, new social norms that are considered good.”
Source: http://www.muhaddith.org/earlymarriage/EarlyMarriage-part1.html

For detailed explanation visit the links above.

Regards,

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Regarding Aisha age.
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2016, 03:27:41 PM »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers,

Please visit the link below to see Bible Prophets, Emperors and others marrying young girls as young as 8



Minimum age for marriage in the USA:

Not only that, but the State of Delaware in the USA used to have the minimum age be 7 years old.  Yes, seven!  Yes, a man, regardless of how old he was, could marry a girl and have sexual intercourse with her when she was 7 years old.

Furthermore, the Virgin Mary, peace be upon her, was believed to have had Jesus when she was 11 or 12.  This means she was 11 or 10 when she got pregnant.

Visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm



Do not go on the defensive!

When talking about the age of our Mother Aisha, do not go on the defensive.  Always go on the offensive with the points that I mentioned above, and you'll shut the doomed-to-Hell infidels' mouths up.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah


Offline Shabeer1

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Re: Regarding Aisha age.
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2016, 09:37:13 AM »
ISLAM & MARRIAGE

[017:034]  Come not nigh to the orphan's property except to improve it, until he attains the ''age of full strength''; and fulfill (every) ''engagement'', for (every) engagement will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).[MARRIAGE IS AN ENGAGEMENT]
024:059]  But when the children among you ''come of age'', let them (also) ask for ''permission'', as do those senior to them (in age): Thus does God make clear His Signs to you: for God is full of knowledge and wisdom.
24:58. O you who believe! Let your legal slaves and slave-girls, and those among you who have not come to the *******age of puberty ask your permission******* (before they come to your presence) on three occasions;
Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 8 :: Hadith 465
Narrated 'Aisha:

(the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since****** I attained the age of puberty********. Not a day passed but the Prophet visited us, both in the mornings and evenings. My father Abii Bakr thought of building a mosque in the courtyard of his house and he did so.
Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 86 :: Hadith 101

Narrated 'Aisha:

Allah's Apostle said, "It is essential to have the *****consent of a virgin (for the marriage)****. I said, "A virgin feels shy." The Prophet; said, "Her silence means her consent." Some people said, "If a man falls in love with an orphan slave girl or a virgin and she refuses (him) and then he makes a trick by bringing two false witnesses to testify that he has married her, and then ****she attains the age of puberty ******and agrees to marry him and the judge accepts the false witness and the husband knows that the witnesses were false ones, he may consummate his marriage."
Men/women acquire the knowledge of sex after the puberty:
Sayyidah Aisha said: When a girl is nine years old, she is a woman (meaning, she has attained puberty).‘ (Tirmidhi, Hadith 1109)
FOR MARRIAGE GIRL MUST PASSED THEIR PUBERTY LEVEL.
Muslim :: Book 8 : Hadith 3426
Muslim :: Book 19 : Hadith 4460
Dawud :: Book 11 : Hadith 2098 
Dawud :: Book 19 : Hadith 2979
Women permission required for marriage: 
Dawud :: Book 11 : Hadith 2091
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:

A virgin came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and mentioned that her father had married her against her will, so the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) allowed her to exercise her choice.
Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 86 :: Hadith 99,98,100, 101
Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 85 :: Hadith 78,79
Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 51 :: Hadith 25
Muslim :: Book 8 : Hadith 3303 ,3305,3306,3307,3308
Dawud :: Book 11 : Hadith 2076, 2077,2088,2091,2095
Malik :: Book 28 : Hadith 28.11.25
Malik :: Book 28 : Hadith 28.2.4

PROPHET MUHAMMAD SA SAYS
Dawud :: Book 29 : Hadith 3952
Narrated AbuHurayrah:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: **************The child of adultery is worst of the three.**************

ISLAM AGREED MARRIAGE WITH GIRL WITH HER PERMISSION REQUIRED (MORAL) ,SHE PASSED HER PUBERTY LEVEL(SCIENTIFIC)


CHALLENGE III :

IS ANY RELIGION ON EARTH (EXCEPT ISLAM) THAT AGREED /PROMOTE TWO CONDITION OF MARRIAGE (GIRL PERMISSION,PUBERTY)?????

Dawud :: Book 29 : Hadith 3952
Narrated AbuHurayrah:

The Prophet MUHAMMED (peace_be_upon_him) said: **************The child of adultery is worst of the three.**************


WHO ARE THE REAL CHILD SEX WHOLE SALES DEALERS?

Child sex tourism :

Thailand : 40% of prostitutes are child in Thailand
Northern Italy: 40% of prostitution affects minors.
Cambodia: 1/3 of prostitutes are child
 India : 1.2 million child prostitutes
 Brazil:  1.2 million child prostitutes
United States: Between 244,000 to 325,000 child prostitutes.
China: It is estimated that there are between 200,000 and 500,000 child prostitutes.
 Mexico:16,000 children in Mexico were involved in prostitution
 Sri Lanka, there are nearly 40,000 child prostitutes
In the Philippines, there are 60,000 to 100,000 prostituted children
In Nepal approximately 30% of them were found to be children.
in Vietnam, and 20,000 of these are children.
in Ukraine, research has shown that between 30 and 40 percent of prostitutes are between 11 and 18 years
in Russia approximately 20 to 25 percent of Moscow's sex workers are minors.
wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sex_tourism
wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_of_children
wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse
 
Teenage pregnancy: Countries Compared
1   United States    494,357 births            
2   Poland    30,413       
3   Germany    29,000          
4   Canada    19,920       
5   France    17,985    
6   Japan    17,501    
7   Australia    11,849    
8   Spain    11,264       
9   Italy    11,153    
nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Health/Teenage-pregnancy

MY QUESTION TO ANTI ISLAMIC PPL & ORGANISATION ,AT LEAST U HAVE LITTLE BIT COMMON SENSE ,PLZ CRITICIZE THOSE PEOPLE ," THE REAL PEDOPHILES "

WHO ARE PROMOTE PEDOPHILES?

CHRISTIANITY:
"They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man........Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.  (Numbers 31:7,17-18)"
"....The Tannaïtic Midrash Sifre to Numbers in §157 comments on the above quoted commandment of MOSES to kill the Midianite women as well as the male children...."
"....According to the Tannaïte Rabbis, MOSES therefore had ordered the Israelites to kill all women older than three years and a day, because they were "suitable for having sexual relations." [138]...."
"Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse....."
"A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. "A girl three years old may be betrothed through an act of sexual intercourse," the words of R. Meir. And sages say, "Three years and one day old."....."
1-  The Bible's Prophets, and even Roman Emperors married girls as young as 8! [ Roman Emperors DIR Agnes of France.  ]
2-  Mary got pregnant between the ages of 11 and 14 .
Regarding the Marriage of Mary to Joseph, Catholic Encyclopaedia ( CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Joseph), says:
"When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, "the Lord's brother"). A year after his wife's death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, thentwelve to fourteen years of age, Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place."
Also, "....it is possible that Mary gave birth to her Son when she was about thirteen or fourteen years of age...."
3-  The minimum age for marriage in the US-State of Delaware in year 1880 was 7 [ http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/primary-sources/24].
Source: "Age of Consent Laws [ Table ]," in Children and Youth in History, Item #24, Children and Youth in History (accessed March 2, 2013). Annotated by Stephen Robertson.
4-  According to the Jewish Talmud, Prophet Moses and his followers had sex with girls as young as 3 years old [4].  Yes, THREE years old.  You read it right.

JEWISH:TALMUD SAYS

Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).

Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.

Kethuboth 11b. "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing."


HINDUISM:

Manu 9:94. A man, aged thirty years, shall marry a maiden of twelve who pleases him, or a man of twenty-four a girl eight years of age; if (the performance of) his duties would (otherwise) be impeded, (he must marry) sooner.
Vishnu Purana III:10 If he marry,he must select a maiden who is of a third his age,one who has not too much hair,but is not without any,one who is not very black or yellow complexioned and who is not from birth a cripple or deformed...”

Mahabharata XLIV (p.18)A person of thirty years of age should wed a girl of ten years of age called a Nagnika. Or, a person of one and twenty years of age should wed a girl of seven years of age.

Baudhayana:Prasna 4:Adhyaya1
11. Let him give his daughter, while she still goes naked, to a man who has not broken the vow of chastity and who possesses good qualities, or even to one destitute of good qualities; let him not keep (the maiden) in (his house) after she has reached the age of puberty”


Sacred Laws of Arya:Gautama 18:21. A girl should be given in marriage before (she attains the age of) puberty
22.He who neglects it, commits sin
23.Some (declare, that a girl shall be given in marriage) before she wears clothes.

1000 child sex slaves
Mahabharata 1:CCXXII And he of eyes like lotus-petals also gave unto them a thousand damsels well-skilled in assisting at bathing and at drinking, young in years and virgins all before their first-season, well-attired and of excellent complexion, each wearing a hundred pieces of gold around her neck, of skins perfectly polished, decked with every ornament, and well-skilled in every kind of personal service.

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Regarding Aisha age.
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2016, 06:35:39 PM »
@Shabeer1,

Your reply reminded me of one of the accusations made by an atheist of how no non-Muslim men are attracted to paedophilia. I replied with the following:

A worldwide list of known pederast and pedophile advocacy groups that promote sexual contact between adults and children:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pedophile_and_pederast_advocacy_organizations

Quote
“A Dutch appeals court has lifted a ban on an organisation which lobbies for the legalisation of sex between adults and children, after finding that the group was not breaking any laws in The Netherlands.”
“And while a number of its members have been jailed on child pornography charges, the court found that the words and photographs on the organisation’s website did not break any laws.”
Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ban-lifted-on-pro-paedophilia-group-in-the-netherlands-8559000.html

Quote
“Jürgen Trittin was listed as “legally responsible” for a 1981 election pamphlet, which called for the decriminalisation of sex acts between adults and children “that occur without the use or threat of force.”
Mr Trittin, the co-leader of the party and a former German environment minister, told a press conference in Berlin on Monday: “It was also my fault and my responsibility that these mistaken demands endured for so long.” He added: “This position is false, was false and lasted too long.””
Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10312930/Germanys-Green-Party-leader-regrets-campaign-to-legalise-paedophilia.html

On the matter of the Judea-Christian and Hinduism references you quoted, I wanted to ask if you have any direct online links to them thta you can post?