Author Topic: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?  (Read 21762 times)

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Offline brian464

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2016, 01:19:54 AM »
Isn't Bible supposed to be the word of God too? I mean, Jesus was just one word, whereas the Bible is much greater than that. So... is Bible a bigger God? Or at the very least, it should be a God too. Right?

You do agree that the Koran ( Allah's word ) and Allah have existed together through eternity ?

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2016, 02:23:38 AM »
Answer the question!

And there has not been a consensus of scholars about the un-createdness of the Qur'an.

Offline submit

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2016, 05:25:27 AM »

Paul did submit to one God and God's Word (who appeared to Paul ), just as muslims submit to Allah and the Koran (Allah's word)

You do know that when God says the Word "I", both "I"(the Word)  and God are not two different beings but one God.

You say Paul submitted to one God and onto God's Word that transformed into human on earth. This is similar to Hinduism. Hinduism too submit to one God. But the attributes of one God transformed into human form deities on earth. Notice the same concept of falsehood spread by the Deceiver.

Words of God are not God. They are not divine being. They dont transform into human but rather humans need to pen down those words into scrolls/books. They are revelations brought down by onto earth by Holy Spirit for guidance.

Offline brian464

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2016, 03:01:10 PM »
Answer the question!

And there has not been a consensus of scholars about the un-createdness of the Qur'an.

Why do some scholars say that the Quran and Allah existed as two through eternity ?

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2016, 06:53:55 PM »
Once again did not answer the question!

And, which scholar said that "the Quran and Allah existed as two through eternity"? As far as I know, no one said that. What scholars have said is that, because God is supposed to be eternal, and therefore God in His entirety with all His attributes has to be eternal, which means God's knowledge also has to be eternal and since God's knowledge consists of the Qur'an along with all the knowledge about this universe, therefore the Qur'an is uncreated and has existed since the beginning (or throughout eternity). By this understanding, if I'm not mistaken, the Torah and the Bible would also be considered eternal.

Other scholars hold the opinion that even if there was a millisecond difference, God would have existed prior to His knowledge and therefore the Qur'an is created. This opinion has existed since 9th-10th centuries CE, primarily by the religious movement the Mut'azalis. This movement pretty much died out, but the concept of the uncreated Qur'an still exists.

Offline submit

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2016, 06:03:05 AM »
Isn't Bible supposed to be the word of God too? I mean, Jesus was just one word, whereas the Bible is much greater than that. So... is Bible a bigger God? Or at the very least, it should be a God too. Right?

Good analogy. Its also interesting to note Jesus is not referred as Words / Words of God by Christian. So since they believe that a Word transform into son of God. Do they have knowledge on which word was it?

Offline brian464

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2016, 08:44:31 AM »
Answer the question!

And there has not been a consensus of scholars about the un-createdness of the Qur'an.

You said that there has not been a consensus ( of scholars )  which means, some scholars believe in the Quran and Allah existing together through eternity, right ?

Offline submit

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2016, 09:49:40 AM »
You said that there has not been a consensus ( of scholars )  which means, some scholars believe in the Quran and Allah existing together through eternity, right ?

There is no believe that Quran and Allah exist side by side the beginning through eternity. Attributes/parts of God do not exist side by side with God. Imagine if God spoke, do each of the words stand next to God side by side with divinity?

There is however a belief from some sect that only after Allah has spoken His Words. Then His Words are created or known.

Offline brian464

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2016, 05:54:23 AM »
His Words are created or known.

Do you have a quote from the Quran saying that the Quran did not exist in eternity with Allah ?

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2016, 08:39:00 AM »
Unsurprisingly, the question still remains unanswered.

Regarding your point,
Do you have a quote from the Bible saying that the Bible did not exist in eternity with God?

Offline brian464

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2016, 11:09:04 AM »
Unsurprisingly, the question still remains unanswered.

Regarding your point,
Do you have a quote from the Bible saying that the Bible did not exist in eternity with God?

The bible is a historical document ( so we know it did not exist before it was created by human beings )

 unlike the Koran that is supposed to be in existence in eternity with Allah according to muslim scholars

Offline submit

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2016, 11:09:53 AM »
His Words are created or known.
Do you have a quote from the Quran saying that the Quran did not exist in eternity with Allah ?

Taurat/Zabur/Injil/Quran are Words of God. So His Words are eternal as God is eternal.
As no creature can erase the eternal attribute of God.

But the parts/attributes  of God are not additional forms that exist side by side in divinity to God.

Offline brian464

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2016, 11:59:40 AM »

 So His Words are eternal as God is eternal.


We know its easy to think of a human as a trinity ( mind, body and spirit );

 the mind is the conscious self,

 the body is what we can see and

 the spirit is the unconscious self that regulates heartbeat, body temperature, sugar levels etc.

Can we apply the same trinity explanation, analogously to God ? in other words,

God exists as Mind and Spirit and the Spirit  in turn through the analogy of binary fission  be (came )  Jesus in Mary's womb

Offline submit

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2016, 06:36:24 AM »
We know its easy to think of a human as a trinity ( mind, body and spirit );
 the mind is the conscious self,
 the body is what we can see and
 the spirit is the unconscious self that regulates heartbeat, body temperature, sugar levels etc.
Can we apply the same trinity explanation, analogously to God ? in other words,
God exists as Mind and Spirit and the Spirit  in turn through the analogy of binary fission be (came )  Jesus in Mary's womb

There you go. About such philosophy. Something that is not guided by the covenant sent down by God in His books are simply the disruptive thoughts whispered by the Deceiver. So the Deceiver led many Children of Adam astray by spreading falsehood about God.

Offline brian464

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2016, 05:26:15 AM »
We know its easy to think of a human as a trinity ( mind, body and spirit );
 the mind is the conscious self,
 the body is what we can see and
 the spirit is the unconscious self that regulates heartbeat, body temperature, sugar levels etc.
Can we apply the same trinity explanation, analogously to God ? in other words,
God exists as Mind and Spirit and the Spirit  in turn through the analogy of binary fission be (came )  Jesus in Mary's womb

There you go. About such philosophy.

You do agree with the Trinity of a human being, right ?