Author Topic: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against  (Read 12038 times)

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Offline brian464

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Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« on: February 18, 2016, 07:00:13 PM »
There are three types of Christians that the Koran is against:

(1) Those Christians who believe that Jesus is the biological son of God ( offspring )

(2) Those Christians who believe that Mary is also God

(3) Those Christians who believe that Jesus was fully God on earth.

So if any Christian does not believe any of the 3 above but

 still believes that Jesus was God before coming to earth to become fully human in mind, body and spirit ( the trinity of mind, body and spirit ) on earth,

 that type of Christian does not go against the teachings of the Koran since the Koran is only against Jesus being fully God on earth

Offline submit

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2016, 09:00:52 AM »
Quran will be against such Christians too; that believe God become fully human on earth. As God did not transform into a fully human but rather create a fully human inside a womb of a woman
Quote
They have certainly disbelieved who say,  Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. (5:72)

Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. (3:59)


Offline brian464

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2016, 01:34:16 PM »
Allah is the Messiah

I do not know of any Christian who says that God is the Messiah, but rather Jesus is the Messiah


worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord.

The gospel says that Jesus did say to worship God because

 Jesus was no longer God on earth but fully human in mind, fully human in spirit and fully human in body ( the "trinity" on earth, "mind, body, spirit" was fully human )


  he who associates others with Allah   

Here again, its clear from the gospel that Jesus clearly told his followers, that God is God and Jesus is fully human and so God in heaven was all by Himself without any associates


    He created him from dust 

The creation of Adam and Jesus being born in Mary's womb is  very different, Adam  was created from dust and the Jesus was not from dust but by God's Spirit going into the womb of Mary

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2016, 04:51:38 PM »
I am definitely out of my depth here, but don't Christians (at-least one group of them) believe in the "hypostatic union" - a term used to describe how "God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time"? "... Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man. (...) Jesus' actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one personality. (...) When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God (...) In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever."
Source: http://www.gotquestions.org/hypostatic-union.html

Also, if Jesus is the Messiah and if "the son, the father and the spirit" are one, then doesn't it mean that "the son, the father and the spirit" all "three" can be called the Messiah?

Regards,

Offline brian464

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2016, 12:57:25 AM »
Christians (at-least one group of them) believe in the "hypostatic union"

Yes, the "hypostatic union Christians" is one group of Christians that the Koran is against, which is, the group that says that Jesus was God on earth but

 as to other christians who believe that Jesus was not God on earth, the Koran does not address those  Christians who believe that Jesus was God but

Jesus is not God anymore since He was born inside Mary's womb when God's Spirit entered Mary's womb to become fully human

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2016, 02:29:37 AM »
From what I understand of the theology, there was a part of God i.e. Jesus, that became human on Earth, did humanly things and then died. Does this not mean that a part of God died? And if a part of God can die, isn't it logical to accept that the rest of God can also die?

Also, why refer to Jesus as "the 'trinity' on earth [i.e.] 'mind, body, spirit' was fully human". Aren't all humans "fully human in mind, fully human in spirit and fully human in body"?

Regards,

Offline submit

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2016, 05:19:38 AM »
Allah is the Messiah
I do not know of any Christian who says that God is the Messiah, but rather Jesus is the Messiah

you need to quote the full highlighted words. Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary. Hence what is post is sufficient to tell that Quran is against God turning into fully human on earth.

Offline brian464

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2016, 02:12:13 AM »
the son of Mary

Notice the word " son " is used in the Koran but not in the biological sense since Mary was not the biological mother of Jesus, so

 the Koran is not against the word "son" since the gospel refers to Jesus as the Son of God but not in the biological sense

Offline brian464

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2016, 02:33:56 AM »
  there was a part of God i.e. Jesus, that became human on Earth

When the Spirit of God entered Mary's womb, that Spirit had already separated from God ( the Father ) so the best analogy in biology is called  binary fission where a single cell can split into two (example: amoeba ), in this case, one remained God and the other became fully human


Also, why refer to Jesus as "the 'trinity' on earth [i.e.] 'mind, body, spirit' was fully human". Aren't all humans "fully human in mind, fully human in spirit and fully human in body"?

Yes, all human beings are trinities of mind, body and spirit and the bible does back up the Koran in saying that Jesus was fully human on earth, ( fully human in mind, fully human in spirit and fully human in body )

Offline submit

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2016, 04:07:38 AM »
you still do not get the the purpose of the verse. The verse is against the concept of God becoming human.
So whether you believe God becomes fully human on earth (mind spirit body), or God becomes fully human but still with God-status do not matters at all. As Quran is against the concept of God becoming human.

Quote
They have certainly disbelieved who say,  Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. (5:72)

Offline brian464

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2016, 12:20:53 PM »
but still with God-status

Jesus does not have God-status in the bible, just as the Koran calls Jesus, son of Mary ( not biological son of Mary ), the bible calls Jesus, Son of God ( not biological son of God ), so the status of Jesus is completely human and Jesus remains human in heaven and Jesus today is not God or God the Father.

Nowhere in the bible does it say that Jesus is God the Son but rather the Son of God, just as the Koran calls Jesus, the son of Mary (both meaning, not biological in nature )

"worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord."

Christians agree with the Koran because

I personally do not know of any Christians who worship Jesus;

 its always worshipping the Father ( In Jesus Name ) in other words,

 we pray to God the Father because Jesus told us to


Indeed, he who associates others with Allah -

Jesus is not God the Son, so God does not have any associates today.

There is only one God and Jesus is not God today, either on earth or in heaven, Jesus was always Son of God ( not biological Son )  and not God the Son

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2016, 12:55:46 PM »
If I'm not mistaken about the discussion here, it is pertinent to point out that the Qur'an claims that Jesus was never God. It isn't like he was first God then became completely human and that today he remains a human; he has, from the moment of his creation by God, always remained human.

Regards,

Offline brian464

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2016, 01:37:03 PM »
the Qur'an claims that Jesus was never God.

The Quran  says that Jesus was not the biological son of God  and

 the Quran says that Jesus was not God on earth

and the Quran says that Jesus was never  God the Son but

 the Quran not once said that Jesus was never God

, from the moment of his creation by God, always remained human.

According to the Koran, the Spirit of God was sent to Mary and there is no indication in the Koran that the Spirit of God never entered Mary's womb

Offline brian464

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2016, 03:14:26 PM »
the Qur'an claims that Jesus was never God.

In addition to my comment above, does the Koran  state anywhere that Jesus was never God at any point in time before Jesus became fully human on earth ?

I totally agree with the Koran and the Bible agrees with the Koran too, since all the comments about Jesus ( in the Koran )  was about His life on earth

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2016, 02:47:22 AM »
Doesn't Jesus being God once, imply that there were more than one God once and before the birth of Jesus, people of the world essentially prayed to more than one God? Or, shouldn't it at-least mean that God once had a partner?

And if Jesus was a part of God, indistinguishable from God, doesn't it still leave us with the problem that God can die?

Regards,

Offline brian464

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2016, 01:40:26 PM »
Doesn't Jesus being God once, imply that there were more than one God once and before the birth of Jesus,

There was only one God until the following happened according to the Koran.

According to the Koran, the Spirit of God was upon Mary, so I believe that is when the analogy (from biology) I mentioned earlier happened.

When the Spirit of God entered Mary's womb, that Spirit had already separated from God ( the Father ) so the best analogy in biology is called  binary fission where a single cell can split into two (example: amoeba ), in this case, one remained God and the other became fully human


And if Jesus was a part of God, indistinguishable from God, doesn't it still leave us with the problem that God can die?


Once human, Jesus was never a part of God and even today, Jesus is not a part of God but fully human in glorified form


Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2016, 05:17:47 PM »
Regarding the spirit, Brother Osama Bdullah's article is linked here:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/spirit.htm

Also, an exegesis on Qur'an 4:171 is linked here, (will have to scroll down for the particular verse)

https://ia802707.us.archive.org/2/items/maarifulquran-english-pdf/MaarifulquranEnglishPdf-Vol2-Page616-672ByMuftiShafiUsmaniRah.pdf

Regards,

Offline brian464

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2016, 08:47:41 PM »
Regarding the spirit, Brother Osama Bdullah's article is linked here:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/spirit.htm

Also, an exegesis on Qur'an 4:171 is linked here, (will have to scroll down for the particular verse)

https://ia802707.us.archive.org/2/items/maarifulquran-english-pdf/MaarifulquranEnglishPdf-Vol2-Page616-672ByMuftiShafiUsmaniRah.pdf

Regards,

You have given me a lot to study, so check back every few days ( at least )  for updates to this discussion, thanks for your patience

Offline brian464

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2016, 05:29:47 PM »
Regarding the spirit, Brother Osama Bdullah's article is linked here:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/spirit.htm

I am going to go line by line, so be looking for the rest of my commentary over several updates ( might take two weeks or longer ) and you can respond after I have addressed the last line in both the links ( including the exegesis link )  you sent me:


The first link states : "GOD's Spirit came upon many people other than Jesus"

Comment: Yes, Jesus needed guidance from God's Spirit because once Jesus became totally human, He needed God's Spirit to guide Him.


The first link states : " Trinitanian Christians claim that since Jesus carried GOD's spirit, then he must be GOD himself "

Comment: Remember, I am not a Trinitarian Christian but I am not sure what is meant by "carried God's Spirit" but being guided by the Spirit of God was essential, since Jesus was fully human on earth. 



The first link states : " he ( Jesus )  will delight in the fear of the LORD. "

Comment: I do believe that Jesus feared God and I interpret the word "fear" as respect because nobody delights in fear but people do delight in respecting God.


The first link states : "Here is my servant (Jesus ) whom I have chosen "

Comment: "chosen" here could be interpreted as God has free will to choose His own fully human Son or choose somebody else who is also fully human


The first link states: "Let us look at the many others who carried GOD's spirit in them in the Bible"

Comment: The same Spirit of God Who had to guide Jesus, also was present to guide others in the Bible



The first link states : "1 Samuel 16:16 "Let our lord command his servants here to search for someone who can play the harp. He will play when the evil spirit from God comes upon you, and you will feel better."

Comment: In verse 14 ( before verse 16 in the NLT bible version ) " Now the Spirit of the Lord had left Saul, and the Lord sent a tormenting spirit that filled him with depression and fear." (end of quote ).

In the verse 14, we see that the Spirit of God left and another spirit ( a tormentor, a apostate spirit ) arrived which shows that since God is everywhere,

God is also in the same place where tormenting, apostate spirits reside ( I would say, subordinate to the Devil ) and

 since God is constantly interacting with apostate spirits ( since God is everywhere ) apostate spirits, even though in a state of apostasy, do obey God sometimes and

 God in return lives in peace with apostate spirits.

TO BE CONTINUED ( thanks for your patience )

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2016, 12:49:16 AM »
This is definitely not my area, that is why I just gave the links. It would be better if you contact Osama Abdullah for discussion on these topics.

Regards,

Offline brian464

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2016, 07:45:30 AM »
This is definitely not my area, that is why I just gave the links. It would be better if you contact Osama Abdullah for discussion on these topics.

Regards,

Do you have his email address ?

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2016, 02:32:09 PM »
Apparently his e-mail account is filled with spam, so he doesn't keep track of it.

He usually keeps a lookout for the new posts, so hopefully he may come across this one and reply on his own.

Regards,

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2016, 09:04:01 AM »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers,

I am here.  Brian, please ask your questions here.  No email. 

Thank you,
Osama Abdallah

Offline brian464

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2016, 06:57:40 PM »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers,

I am here.  Brian, please ask your questions here.  No email. 

Thank you,
Osama Abdallah

Brother Farooq gave me two links and I was just going over the links with him and he referred me to you :)

Offline al-Ghazali

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2017, 03:02:44 PM »
the son of Mary

Notice the word " son " is used in the Koran but not in the biological sense since Mary was not the biological mother of Jesus, so

 the Koran is not against the word "son" since the gospel refers to Jesus as the Son of God but not in the biological sense

The Qur'an absolutely denies Allah has taken or begotten "a son" and Miriam (pbuh) IS with a certainty the biological mother of Issa (sa).

Where from you get the notion a woman who gives birth could be not the biological mother, unless you are talking artificial insemination that infant (pbuh) had a biological mother named Miriam (pbuh).

This is how bad people have to misinterpret the Qur'an to deby it's Truth, "son" doesn't mean son in the Qur'an re: Miriam...

But DOES in the Gospel and also se: "son of God."

Do you not see the fallacy, the double standard? If Issa (sa) is the son of man he is a man, it's a common idiom applied to humans like Ezekiel for one.

Now you want to claim Qur'an is ok with using son in a not literal sense with Miriam (pbuh) whov LITERALLY gave birth.

Offline al-Ghazali

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Re: Three types of Christians that the Koran is against
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2017, 03:12:25 PM »

The second you stated "Mary is not the biological mother" you spoke in error.

What makes you think Miriam didn't have a baby grow in her womb with half her biology, mitochondrial dna?

Assumption so as to fail at criticizing the Qur'an?

It has been attempted for 1400 years, nobody has succeeded in what they attempt to do anytime a non truth is spoken of the Qur'a.

Simply thinking (rather, not thinking, forgive my harsh words) Miriam isn't the biological mother isn't grounded in reason. Your premise is faulty entirely based on the fact that Isaa (sa) IS NOT the biological "son of God" even in Christianity. God isn't biological.

Miriam and Jesus (pbut) ARE.