Author Topic: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ  (Read 26908 times)

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Offline brian464

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We know that the Koran is against certain sects of Christianity as detailed below:

(1) Those who believed that Mary was God ( this sect must have been very tiny and is probably an extinct sect of Christianity because modern Christians do not believe that Mary is God )

(2) Those who believed that Jesus was the biological son of God ( this sect again, must have been very tiny and is probably another extinct sect of Christianity because modern Christians do not believe that Jesus was the biological son of God

(3) Those who believe that Jesus was God on earth ( this is the belief of the majority of Trinitarian Christians today )

Since the Koran is so specific as to even point to the tiniest sects of Christianity ( two of which are extinct today) the fact that

 the Koran  never mentions  those Christians who believe that Jesus was fully man on earth and not God anymore but

was God before He was born inside Mary's womb, makes me think that the Koran is not against one type of Christian, the Christian who believes in the pre-conception Divinity of Christ

Offline submit

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2016, 05:50:24 AM »
the Koran  never mentions  those Christians who believe that Jesus was fully man on earth and not God anymore but

was God before He was born inside Mary's womb, makes me think that the Koran is not against one type of Christian, the Christian who believes in the pre-conception Divinity of Christ

The reason that there exist a sect that believe that Jesus was God before and later turn fully human is due to the texts found in John 1:1. 
http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,868.msg3373.html#msg3373

Quote
Word of God is not God. Its just God appointing a being to utter and confirm His words on earth.
Spirit of God is not God. Its just God appointing a being to breathe spirits to give life on earth/heaven.
Face of God is not God. Its just God appointing a place on earth as if facing Him.

Hence the concept of Jesus in the past having divinity is not supported. In fact Jesus do not even exist in other form before he was given life by God.

By just saying a single Word , Adam and Jesus become alive. The Creator simply said Be!

Quote
Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. (3:59)

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2016, 01:51:08 PM »
He created him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. (3:59)

Can the Arabic word "be" be translated as "become" too ? and if not, what is the Arabic word for "become" ?

Adam was created from dust and if Jesus was created, He would have been created from dust too but the Koran does not say that.

If Jesus was created, why involve the Spirit of God upon Mary ? and I believe the Spirit of God entered Mary's womb to become Jesus

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2016, 05:21:50 PM »
Spirit of God is not God.

In addition to my comments above, can you point to a Koranic verse that says that the "Spirit of God" is not God ?

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2016, 08:44:32 PM »
Adam and Jesus become alive

In addition to both my comments in the two posts above, we know the Koran talks about both Adam and Jesus in the same context of being human but

 by saying that both Adam and Jesus are human, the Koran clearly implies they were not human before they became human as clarified below

We know that the Koran clearly states that both Adam and Jesus became human but

 before Adam came into existence, Adam was not human but dust and

before Jesus came into existence as a human, Jesus was not dust but

 the Spirit of God as seen in the Spirit of God appearing upon Mary and I believe that Spirit entered Mary to "be" or "become" Jesus

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2016, 04:54:09 AM »
Adam was created from dust and if Jesus was created, He would have been created from dust too but the Koran does not say that.

If Jesus was created, why involve the Spirit of God upon Mary ? and I believe the Spirit of God entered Mary's womb to become Jesus

Yes in order to be alive dust (Adam), elements inisde womb were used (Jesus). The similarity is that as God commanded Be! The Spirit breathe life onto both of them. Hence both of them become alive .

As for the concept that The Spirit becoming Jesus. This is not supported in Quran.
In fact if The Spirit were to leave the body of Jesus. Jesus would not be able to perform miracles like breathing life to clay nor speak with wisdom since infant etc..

Quote
When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the holy Spirit, so that thou spakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how thou didst shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and didst blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and thou didst heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission; and how thou didst raise the dead by My permission; and how I restrained the Children of Israel from (harming) thee when thou camest unto them with clear proofs, and those of them who disbelieved exclaimed: This is naught else than mere magic  (5:110)


~~~~~~

In addition to my comments above, can you point to a Koranic verse that says that the "Spirit of God" is not God ?

As in Quran, Holy Spirit just obey the commands of God and his duties involves executing the commands either in heaven or earth.

Quote
Say: The holy Spirit hath delivered it from thy Lord with truth, that it may confirm (the faith of) those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah) 16:102.

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2016, 09:18:50 PM »
elements inisde womb were used (Jesus)

what elements in the womb were there to be used ? I thought only the Spirit of God was present

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2016, 09:53:40 AM »
the requirement of a womb was that so there will be substances inside it for usage to form Jesus prior to breathing life onto him. The Spirit cannot breathe life onto nothingness.

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2016, 01:44:56 PM »
the requirement of a womb was that so there will be substances inside it for usage to form Jesus prior to breathing life onto him. The Spirit cannot breathe life onto nothingness.

Since the Spirit cannot breath life into nothingness, its possible that God told the Spirit to "be" Jesus, right ?

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2016, 02:20:33 PM »
The Spirit cannot breathe life onto nothingness.

Let me clarify my statement I made above. The Koran uses the word "be" to indicate creation.

Does the Koran contradict the statement below  or is it silent on the subject matter ?

Just before Jesus appeared inside Mary's womb, what if God said, " I want to "be" human" and

 through a process ( analogous to "binary fission" in biology) God "be"came Spirit (God, the Father and Spirit, the Son of God ) and

the Spirit of God (Son of God )  entered Mary's womb to "be" Jesus

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2016, 04:28:30 AM »

Be! is a word being a command to be witnessed by the universe.
 It has nothing to do with the word Be!come. or God Be!coming something. When God said Be!. Creations came to existence.

~~

Does the Koran contradict the statement below  or is it silent on the subject matter ?
Just before Jesus appeared inside Mary's womb, what if God said, " I want to "be" human" and
 through a process ( analogous to "binary fission" in biology) God "be"came Spirit (God, the Father and Spirit, the Son of God ) and

The Spirit, Angels and Jin can appear in human form.
However if the Spirit becomes human. Then it will contradict the verse similar to the creation of Adam that needed substance of dust. It will also contradict verse that Jesus was reinforced with the Spirit hence allowing him to breathe life to clay and having wisdom since childhood.

~~
also its important to note that
the Christians only view 2 Gods in the beginning that exist equally as said in John 1:1. So for those who believe that Spirit becomes Jesus.
Then what happens to Word?. They have to ponder when Spirit becomes body of Jesus, and does that made Word becomes the soul of Jesus?




Offline submit

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2016, 04:40:11 AM »
by saying that both Adam and Jesus are human, the Koran clearly implies they were not human before they became human as clarified below
We know that the Koran clearly states that both Adam and Jesus became human but
 before Adam came into existence, Adam was not human but dust and
before Jesus came into existence as a human, Jesus was not dust but
 the Spirit of God as seen in the Spirit of God appearing upon Mary and I believe that Spirit entered Mary to "be" or "become" Jesus

it shall apply to all humans as well, before we are breathed with life by the Spirit in order to be considered human.
Quote
We are simply dots of liquid.
Adam was dust.
Jesus was substances inside womb.

As for Jesus was a Spirit of God becoming Jesus. That is the believe of Christians when interpreting their books. As they believe in concept of a God with parts of God. Or simply three distinct Gods but all having equality in oneness.

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2016, 08:11:05 AM »
There is another interesting quotation regarding this discourse:

Quote
'Allamah Al-Alusi, the author of the famous Tafsir. Ruh al-Ma’ani has reported an episode from the court of Caliph Harun al-Rashid where a Christian physician entered into a debate against the scholar 'Ali ibn al-Husayn al-Wiqidi challenging him that his Book (the Qur'an) has a particular word which indicates that Sayyidna 'Isa (as) [i.e. Jesus] is a part of Allah. And as a proof, he read out the verse [4:](171) which carries the words: [Arabic for: ruhim-minhu] (a spirit from Him). 'Allamah al-Wiqidi came up with a rejoinder and recited another verse (45:13) of the Qur'an: [Arabic text of verse] (The meaning of the verse is that everything that there is in the heavens and the earth is from the same Allah where the word - minhu: from Him - serves to attribute everything to Allah) and said: 'If (ruhim-minhu: a spirit from Him means, as you think, that Sayyidna 'Isa (as) is a part of Allah, then, the verse I have just recited would mean that every thing in the heavens and the earth is also a part of Allah?'

Mufti Shafi Usmani, Tafseer-e-Maariful Quran (English), Volume 2, Pg. 638
Source: https://ia802707.us.archive.org/2/items/maarifulquran-english-pdf/MaarifulquranEnglishPdf-Vol2-Page616-672ByMuftiShafiUsmaniRah.pdf

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2016, 02:40:41 PM »

Be! is a word

If you could quote directly from the Koran, that would help, thanks ( please do include chapter and verse )

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2016, 02:42:22 PM »

Jesus was substances inside womb.

Again, if you could quote directly from the Koran, including chapter and verse, that would help, thanks

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2016, 02:56:23 PM »
would mean that every thing in the heavens and the earth is also a part of Allah?

In addition to my comments to Brother Submit above,

Words are always part of God, whether those words become alive or inanimate like the heavens.

Just like the Koran is part of God or the Word of God,

the Word spoken by God either became Jesus (Spirit of God/ Son of God )  or

 became the heavens, so

 one word (Spirit of God )  became a human being (Son of God )  and the other word became heaven,

 so both are words and both words are part of God,

  with one being a living human being (Jesus )  and the other (heavens) not a living human being, so words can become alive or become inanimate, but both words are part of God,

 just like the Koran is part of God

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2016, 03:33:54 PM »
So, by your interpretation shouldn't we be worshiping literally everything since everything is a part of God?

There are different ways with which classical and modern Muslim scholars have answered questions like these.

The Qur'an is considered as a reflection of God's eternal word, not as God Himself. Muslims don't believe that God can be divided into parts and then some parts of God can die. If God is supposed to be immortal/eternal then logically speaking no part of God should be able to die, otherwise, all of God can also die.

Check out this video from Simply Seerah, the first 6 minutes are related to this issue in a general way, and the rest with regards to the Christians who believe that Jesus was human and God at the same time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfwEZf_Yc7c


Regards,

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2016, 04:05:35 PM »
So, by your interpretation shouldn't we be worshiping literally everything since everything is a part of God?

Muslims kiss the black stone, not because they worship it but because

 that was created by God, so likewise, we do not worship anything, including God since

 God is not human and does not require worship of Him or anything else

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2016, 06:50:42 PM »
I don't know where you are getting your facts from, but Muslims definitely do worship God.

God not requiring worship does not mean that we shouldn't worship Him.
We worship God because He commands us to and it is in our best interests to do so.

Regards,

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2016, 07:27:22 PM »

We worship God because He commands us to

If God is so afraid that some humans will not worship Him, why did He create the devil, whom God knew will never worship Him ?

 could it be because God does not require worship from His creatures ?

God gives us free will for a reason and that is because He is not a slave master.

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2016, 06:44:22 AM »
Whatever we know about God comes from the Qur'an and authentic Sunnah, if those sources tell us that God wants us to worship Him, than that is what Muslims believe in.
God gave us free will in order to test us, this was the agreement that was made.


Regards,

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2016, 09:27:07 AM »
God wants us to worship Him,

And if we do not worship Him, then what ?

 I highly doubt God wants anything from anybody because God is all self-sufficient and does not lack anything or want something

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2016, 10:55:27 AM »
God would like us, to succeed.

Regards,

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2016, 12:12:23 PM »
God would like us, to succeed.

Regards,

You agree that God is self-sufficient and does not want anything from human beings, right ?

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2016, 12:45:35 PM »
There is a difference between someone "needing" something and someone "preferring" or "liking" something.

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2016, 11:34:30 PM »
There is a difference between someone "needing" something and someone "preferring" or "liking" something.

What happens if somebody does not worship five times a day ?

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2016, 03:32:12 AM »
It is up to God, whether to punish us for it, either in this life or the next or just simply to forgive us.

Regards,

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2016, 02:05:02 PM »
It is up to God, whether to punish us for it, either in this life or the next or just simply to forgive us.

Regards,

And the punishment is due to not worshipping God, right ?

Offline submit

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2016, 03:52:52 AM »
all of what you query on verses and chapter can be found in my previous posts. Just read thru again . For e.g. if you see numbering (3:59). 3 is the chapter. 59 is the verse.

just like the Koran is part of God

This belief applies to some Christian i presume, by saying bible is part of God and is previously a God. So there are four gods in the beginning:
1)Father do not transform stays in heaven.
2)Spirit (never mentioned in John 1:1) transform into a body.
3)Word transform into somethingelse inside the body.
4)Verses (never mentioned in John 1:1) transform into bible.

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2016, 04:16:06 AM »
all of what you query on verses and chapter can be found in my previous posts. Just read thru again . For e.g. if you see numbering (3:59). 3 is the chapter. 59 is the verse.

just like the Koran is part of God

This belief applies to some Christian i presume, by saying bible is part of God and is previously a God. So there are four gods in the beginning:
1)Father do not transform stays in heaven.
2)Spirit (never mentioned in John 1:1) transform into a body.
3)Word transform into somethingelse inside the body.
4)Verses (never mentioned in John 1:1) transform into bible.

There is only one God, not four Gods as clarified below

The Koran says that Jesus is the son of Mary ( the term "son" used in the Koran does not mean that Jesus is the biological son of Mary) similar to

 Jesus is not the biological son of God when we say Jesus is the Son of God.

There is only one God and Jesus is the Son of God (not God the Son ) and not the biological son of God ( similar to the meaning in the Koran referring to Jesus as the son of Mary )

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2016, 04:25:39 AM »
There is only one God, not four Gods as clarified below

The Koran says that Jesus is the son of Mary ( the term "son" used in the Koran does not mean that Jesus is the biological son of Mary) similar to

 Jesus is not the biological son of God when we say Jesus is the Son of God.

There is only one God and Jesus is the Son of God (not God the Son ) and not the biological son of God ( similar to the meaning in the Koran referring to Jesus as the son of Mary )

you should say among the Son of God. as Jesus and Adam are the two Son of God as written in bible. But in Islam this is falsehood.

God never adopt a son or have biological son on earh. And Mary too do not adopt a son. Son of Mary means Mary gave birth to a son.  Hence her biological son is Jesus.

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2016, 04:42:27 AM »
I presume the way you approach concept of One God is that He splits Himself into few forms. He split into Father, split into Spirit and split into Word. Thus He exist in 3 forms at the same time. But all three entities are still one same God.
But is such concept even supported by John 1:1?

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2016, 11:19:53 PM »
I presume the way you approach concept of One God is that He splits Himself into few forms. He split into Father, split into Spirit and split into Word. Thus He exist in 3 forms at the same time. But all three entities are still one same God.
But is such concept even supported by John 1:1?

The reason John 1:1 supports one God is because

 in the beginning, God and His Word were one and the same, just as the Koran and Allah are one and the same but in the case of Jesus,

 the Word became flesh

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2016, 06:11:34 AM »
Please bear in mind. One God that exist in 3 forms at the same time was not mentioned in John 1:1. In fact Word was with God. Two figures in that verse. And also no where mention about One God appearing in few forms at all.

The problem with Hellenistic Chrisitan books is that they have 3 divine figures in it. So when they try to relate with the One God, the Israelite Yhwh. Problem occurs.

Some interpret it as 3 Gods in oneness equality among each other.
Some interpret it as One God that appear in 3 forms.

BUT still, both concept are the same. Its all about the 3 divine figures. Father/Word/Spirit.  This is falsehood onto the religion of God.

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2016, 07:09:54 AM »
in John 1:1. In fact Word was with God. Two figures in that verse.

Similar to the Koran is with Allah, two who were not created but existed as two through eternity

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2016, 09:15:06 AM »
h Hellenistic Chrisitan books

what is the difference between hellenistic and non-hellenistic christian books ?

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2016, 06:56:31 AM »

Similar to the Koran is with Allah, two who were not created but existed as two through eternity
[/quote]

Not similar at all. As Word in John 1:1 is another entity.

Koran is not another entity, they are Words of God as guidance, humans can choose to oppose Words of God.
Word of God = Be! is a command. When God commands Be!, it simply happens and human cannot choose to oppose the word Be!.

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2016, 07:14:08 AM »
Hellenistics influence will be about having several divine figures or more than 1 form of Gods , able to  manifest into human forms on earth.

Non hellenistic will be that who adhering to the same covenant of God e.g Noahites, Israelites having only 1 form of God unique and singular.

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2016, 05:19:35 PM »
Hellenistics influence will be about having several divine figures or more than 1 form of Gods , able to  manifest into human forms on earth.

Non hellenistic will be that who adhering to the same covenant of God e.g Noahites, Israelites having only 1 form of God unique and singular.

The Koran and Allah existing through eternity is similar to the Word and God existing as two throughout eternity

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2016, 09:17:54 AM »
able to  manifest into human forms on earth.

So the difference between the Koran and the Word ( both existing in eternity ) is that the Word became flesh

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2016, 12:11:30 PM »
The Word never became flesh. And also , Words of God is not 2nd entity or divine figure.

Hope it helps to clear the confusion about unique singular God, and also having such concept that parts of God manifest into flesh on earth similar like other falsehood of beliefs.

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2016, 12:06:42 AM »
Words of God is not 2nd entity or divine figure.

So does the Koran exist in eternity with Allah ?

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2016, 06:03:33 AM »
Words of God is not 2nd entity or divine figure.

What about the Word "I", if God uses the Word ? is it possible that both the Word "I" and God are one and the same?

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2016, 01:27:53 AM »
Son of Mary means Mary gave birth to a son.  Hence her biological son is Jesus.

So son of Mary means biological son ? even though Jesus did not share any DNA with Mary ?

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2016, 07:40:40 AM »
Words of God is not 2nd entity or divine figure.

So does the Koran exist in eternity with Allah ?

Taurat/Zabur/Injil/Quran are His Words. Attribute of God is eternal. So His Words are eternal.

~~

I is a Word or Saying by God. But the Saying of God is not God.
If God spoke out 10 Words to angels. Imagine the angels pointing to each other, look there are 10 new Gods that are part of the supreme one God that are coming at us.
Having such concept of manifestation is falsehood.

~~

Exactly, Son of Mary means biological son. Because Jesus's flesh were made from the substance inside the womb of Mary  and she was the one giving birth to Jesus.
And as God commanded by just saying Be!, Jesus became alive as the spirit is breathed into him.

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2016, 12:36:13 AM »

 Jesus's flesh were made from the substance inside the womb of Mary 

Can you quote the Koran talking about the  "substance" inside Mary becoming flesh (Jesus )

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2016, 05:40:12 AM »
Quote
Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. (3:59)

When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the holy Spirit, so that thou spakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how thou didst shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and didst blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and thou didst heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission; and how thou didst raise the dead by My permission; and how I restrained the Children of Israel from (harming) thee when thou camest unto them with clear proofs, and those of them who disbelieved exclaimed: This is naught else than mere magic  (5:110)


Holy Spirit never become flesh for Adam nor Jesus. They were fashioned by God with substance. And later the command Be! was said by God for them to be alive.

Also base on your belief, after Holy Spirit becomes the flesh??, Word of God needs to enter the flesh to complete the combination of two entities to form a human called Jesus??



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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2016, 12:43:36 PM »
Son of Mary means Mary gave birth to a son.  Hence her biological son is Jesus.
So son of Mary means biological son ? even though Jesus did not share any DNA with Mary ?

Other Christians are trying hard to convince that Jesus is the messiah being the biological offspring of David. Yet you go off the mainstream belief of Christianity by saying Jesus is of a foreign lineage that  Holy Spirit forming a foreign flesh and not from the substance of Mary.

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2016, 03:12:25 PM »
from the substance of Mary.

Adam was formed from dust but Jesus was not formed from any substance of Mary, according to the Quran, right?

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2016, 01:39:47 AM »
Quran mention the exemple of Jesus is like Adam. So since Jesus was inside the womb, his flesh was fashioned thru not dust, but substances inside Mary.

Also you seemed to disagree with the idea that Messiah came from the biolgical offspring of David as other Christians have believed.

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2016, 08:19:24 AM »
substances inside Mary

Can you quote the Quran regarding the "substances" inside Mary that formed Jesus ? or

 was it just the Spirit of God that be (came ) Jesus

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2016, 08:48:30 AM »
Quran mention the exemple of Jesus is like Adam.

In addition to my comment above, the Quran uses the word "be" to indicate Adam's creation but when it comes to Jesus, the word "be" seems to be different since it involves the Spirit of God "be" (coming) Jesus in Mary's womb

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2016, 09:34:49 AM »
Both involves the breathing of spirit into flesh.
The Holy Spirit is given the duty to transmit spirit into the body of Adam and Jesus so they become alive.

~~~

It has been quoted above on the verses about the fashioning of flesh.
 And since you claimed that Spirit of God becomes Jesus. You disagree with other Christians about the Jesus being the biological offspring of David?

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2016, 05:45:29 AM »
You disagree with other Christians about the Jesus being the biological offspring of David?

Both the Quran and Bible do not say that Jesus is God's biological son (Son of God ) or that Jesus came from Mary's egg (son of Mary ) or that Jesus was  David's biological son, from David's sperm (son of David) , so  biological offspring from either God, David or Mary is not what the Koran or the Bible is saying

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2016, 07:18:16 AM »
Quote
“No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.”
(John 1:18)

Beget literally means to bring a child into the world by means of reproduction. If this is not the meaning of this verse, then the original texts should have been translated better, which leads to the problem of whether the Greek version of the Bible is correct or the English one.

Your assertion that the Qur'an does not call Jesus the "son of Mary" is amazing. The Qur'an at-least 23 times literally calls Jesus "son of Mary".
Source: http://search-the-quran.com/search/son%20of%20Mary

Imagine a mother, pointing towards her son, repeats herself 23 times, that "this is her son, that this is her son" and so on, and some guy tells the people that: No, by "son" she did not mean "son", she meant something completely different. Can you see how incorrect this logic is?
Exactly what does the Qur'an need to say that you will accept the fact that the Qur'an claims Jesus to be the "son of Mary"?

It is pretty much a complete waste of time replying to you, if you are going to make such obviously faulty assertions.

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2016, 11:14:19 AM »
Both the Quran and Bible do not say that Jesus is God's biological son (Son of God ) or that Jesus came from Mary's egg (son of Mary ) or that Jesus was  David's biological son, from David's sperm (son of David) , so  biological offspring from either God, David or Mary is not what the Koran or the Bible is saying

Are you sure?

Quote
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. (Matt 1:!8)

Christians say Holy Ghost did something to the egg's of Mary. Some say impregnate. Some say Holy Ghost alter the egg's state to be able to reproduce without semen.
The reason they say this is to fulfill the prophecy that Messiah came from biological offspring of David.

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2016, 11:18:16 AM »
Your assertion that the Qur'an does not call Jesus the "son of Mary" is amazing.

I did not say that the Quran does not call Jesus, son of Mary. What I said is

 that Jesus being the biological son of Mary ( from Mary's egg ) is not what the Quran is saying when Jesus is called son of Mary, similar to

the bible is saying Jesus is the Son of God, does not mean Jesus is the biological son of God

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2016, 11:33:13 AM »
Christians say Holy Ghost did something to the egg's of Mary.

Does the Quran say anything about Mary's egg or was only the Spirit of God involved without any interaction with the egg ?

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #58 on: March 21, 2016, 11:52:49 AM »
I did not say that the Quran does not call Jesus, son of Mary. What I said is

 that Jesus being the biological son of Mary ( from Mary's egg ) is not what the Quran is saying when Jesus is called son of Mary, similar to

the bible is saying Jesus is the Son of God, does not mean Jesus is the biological son of God

 The reason you cant accept this is because your philosophy interpreted that Holy Spirit becomes the flesh of Jesus which is not supported in any scripture. And Christian's interpreted that Holy Spirit alter/touch the egg's of Mary.

~~~

Quran mentioned clearly that Jesus is the biological son of Mary.

Quote
And when she was delivered she said: My Lord! Lo! I am delivered of a female - Allah knew best of what she was delivered - the male is not as the female; and lo! I have named her Mary, and lo! I crave Thy protection for her and for her offspring from Satan the outcast. 3:36

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2016, 05:48:49 AM »
her (Mary) and for her offspring
[/quote]

If Jesus was the offspring of Mary,where did the sperm come from ? the Spirit of God could not have provided the sperm, right ?

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #60 on: March 23, 2016, 06:29:51 AM »
Even Mary questioned how will she be able to get offspring. The answer to that depends on how you evaluate the Mightiness of God.

Quote
She said, "How can I have a boy while no man has touched me and I have not been unchaste?"
He said, "Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, 'It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter [already] decreed.' " (19:20-12)

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #61 on: March 24, 2016, 05:15:04 AM »
how you evaluate the Mightiness of God.

Since God is truly mighty, He is able, not only to undergo "binary fission" but to be able to  use the Word "I"  (be) come Jesus in Mary's womb, right ?

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #62 on: March 24, 2016, 10:04:53 PM »
If the Deceiver led you to think of something outside what was revealed by God. Then you will believe in part of God becoming human. Thats what the Deceiver had been doing to many sons of Adam in the past. So reread the Words of God for guidance.

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2016, 07:59:57 AM »
If the Deceiver led you to think of something outside what was revealed by God. Then you will believe in part of God becoming human. Thats what the Deceiver had been doing to many sons of Adam in the past. So reread the Words of God for guidance.

You say "Deceiver".

 Can you tell me more about this "Deceiver"?

 Was he created by Allah ?

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2016, 06:44:56 AM »
You say "Deceiver".
 Can you tell me more about this "Deceiver"?
 Was he created by Allah ?

If the Deceiver is not created, wouldn't that make the Deceiver as equal to God or the Deceiver is part of God called Lying Spirit of God?

Attribution of falsehood onto God is due to Deceiver promising to lead mankind astray from straight path.

Deceiver has his ways to falsify the covenant sent by God for mankind.
But Words of God can never be changed as the Creator have been sending His messengers to fight falsehood promised to be spread by the Deceiver till end of days.

Quote
O mankind, fear your Lord and fear a Day when no father will avail his son, nor will a son avail his father at all. Indeed, the promise of Allah is truth, so let not the worldly life delude you and be not deceived about Allah by the Deceiver. 31:33

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2016, 09:18:02 AM »
Deceiver has his ways to falsify the covenant sent by God for mankind.

When did Allah create the Deceiver ?

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #66 on: March 29, 2016, 12:49:31 PM »
the creation of Deceiver predates human beings. He was made of fire.

Quote
[ Allah ] said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" [Satan] said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay." (7:12)