Author Topic: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ  (Read 26479 times)

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Offline brian464

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We know that the Koran is against certain sects of Christianity as detailed below:

(1) Those who believed that Mary was God ( this sect must have been very tiny and is probably an extinct sect of Christianity because modern Christians do not believe that Mary is God )

(2) Those who believed that Jesus was the biological son of God ( this sect again, must have been very tiny and is probably another extinct sect of Christianity because modern Christians do not believe that Jesus was the biological son of God

(3) Those who believe that Jesus was God on earth ( this is the belief of the majority of Trinitarian Christians today )

Since the Koran is so specific as to even point to the tiniest sects of Christianity ( two of which are extinct today) the fact that

 the Koran  never mentions  those Christians who believe that Jesus was fully man on earth and not God anymore but

was God before He was born inside Mary's womb, makes me think that the Koran is not against one type of Christian, the Christian who believes in the pre-conception Divinity of Christ

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2016, 05:50:24 am »
the Koran  never mentions  those Christians who believe that Jesus was fully man on earth and not God anymore but

was God before He was born inside Mary's womb, makes me think that the Koran is not against one type of Christian, the Christian who believes in the pre-conception Divinity of Christ

The reason that there exist a sect that believe that Jesus was God before and later turn fully human is due to the texts found in John 1:1. 
http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,868.msg3373.html#msg3373

Quote
Word of God is not God. Its just God appointing a being to utter and confirm His words on earth.
Spirit of God is not God. Its just God appointing a being to breathe spirits to give life on earth/heaven.
Face of God is not God. Its just God appointing a place on earth as if facing Him.

Hence the concept of Jesus in the past having divinity is not supported. In fact Jesus do not even exist in other form before he was given life by God.

By just saying a single Word , Adam and Jesus become alive. The Creator simply said Be!

Quote
Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. (3:59)

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2016, 01:51:08 pm »
He created him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. (3:59)

Can the Arabic word "be" be translated as "become" too ? and if not, what is the Arabic word for "become" ?

Adam was created from dust and if Jesus was created, He would have been created from dust too but the Koran does not say that.

If Jesus was created, why involve the Spirit of God upon Mary ? and I believe the Spirit of God entered Mary's womb to become Jesus

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2016, 05:21:50 pm »
Spirit of God is not God.

In addition to my comments above, can you point to a Koranic verse that says that the "Spirit of God" is not God ?

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2016, 08:44:32 pm »
Adam and Jesus become alive

In addition to both my comments in the two posts above, we know the Koran talks about both Adam and Jesus in the same context of being human but

 by saying that both Adam and Jesus are human, the Koran clearly implies they were not human before they became human as clarified below

We know that the Koran clearly states that both Adam and Jesus became human but

 before Adam came into existence, Adam was not human but dust and

before Jesus came into existence as a human, Jesus was not dust but

 the Spirit of God as seen in the Spirit of God appearing upon Mary and I believe that Spirit entered Mary to "be" or "become" Jesus

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2016, 04:54:09 am »
Adam was created from dust and if Jesus was created, He would have been created from dust too but the Koran does not say that.

If Jesus was created, why involve the Spirit of God upon Mary ? and I believe the Spirit of God entered Mary's womb to become Jesus

Yes in order to be alive dust (Adam), elements inisde womb were used (Jesus). The similarity is that as God commanded Be! The Spirit breathe life onto both of them. Hence both of them become alive .

As for the concept that The Spirit becoming Jesus. This is not supported in Quran.
In fact if The Spirit were to leave the body of Jesus. Jesus would not be able to perform miracles like breathing life to clay nor speak with wisdom since infant etc..

Quote
When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the holy Spirit, so that thou spakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and how thou didst shape of clay as it were the likeness of a bird by My permission, and didst blow upon it and it was a bird by My permission, and thou didst heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission; and how thou didst raise the dead by My permission; and how I restrained the Children of Israel from (harming) thee when thou camest unto them with clear proofs, and those of them who disbelieved exclaimed: This is naught else than mere magic  (5:110)


~~~~~~

In addition to my comments above, can you point to a Koranic verse that says that the "Spirit of God" is not God ?

As in Quran, Holy Spirit just obey the commands of God and his duties involves executing the commands either in heaven or earth.

Quote
Say: The holy Spirit hath delivered it from thy Lord with truth, that it may confirm (the faith of) those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah) 16:102.

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2016, 09:18:50 pm »
elements inisde womb were used (Jesus)

what elements in the womb were there to be used ? I thought only the Spirit of God was present

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2016, 09:53:40 am »
the requirement of a womb was that so there will be substances inside it for usage to form Jesus prior to breathing life onto him. The Spirit cannot breathe life onto nothingness.

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2016, 01:44:56 pm »
the requirement of a womb was that so there will be substances inside it for usage to form Jesus prior to breathing life onto him. The Spirit cannot breathe life onto nothingness.

Since the Spirit cannot breath life into nothingness, its possible that God told the Spirit to "be" Jesus, right ?

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2016, 02:20:33 pm »
The Spirit cannot breathe life onto nothingness.

Let me clarify my statement I made above. The Koran uses the word "be" to indicate creation.

Does the Koran contradict the statement below  or is it silent on the subject matter ?

Just before Jesus appeared inside Mary's womb, what if God said, " I want to "be" human" and

 through a process ( analogous to "binary fission" in biology) God "be"came Spirit (God, the Father and Spirit, the Son of God ) and

the Spirit of God (Son of God )  entered Mary's womb to "be" Jesus

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2016, 04:28:30 am »

Be! is a word being a command to be witnessed by the universe.
 It has nothing to do with the word Be!come. or God Be!coming something. When God said Be!. Creations came to existence.

~~

Does the Koran contradict the statement below  or is it silent on the subject matter ?
Just before Jesus appeared inside Mary's womb, what if God said, " I want to "be" human" and
 through a process ( analogous to "binary fission" in biology) God "be"came Spirit (God, the Father and Spirit, the Son of God ) and

The Spirit, Angels and Jin can appear in human form.
However if the Spirit becomes human. Then it will contradict the verse similar to the creation of Adam that needed substance of dust. It will also contradict verse that Jesus was reinforced with the Spirit hence allowing him to breathe life to clay and having wisdom since childhood.

~~
also its important to note that
the Christians only view 2 Gods in the beginning that exist equally as said in John 1:1. So for those who believe that Spirit becomes Jesus.
Then what happens to Word?. They have to ponder when Spirit becomes body of Jesus, and does that made Word becomes the soul of Jesus?




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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2016, 04:40:11 am »
by saying that both Adam and Jesus are human, the Koran clearly implies they were not human before they became human as clarified below
We know that the Koran clearly states that both Adam and Jesus became human but
 before Adam came into existence, Adam was not human but dust and
before Jesus came into existence as a human, Jesus was not dust but
 the Spirit of God as seen in the Spirit of God appearing upon Mary and I believe that Spirit entered Mary to "be" or "become" Jesus

it shall apply to all humans as well, before we are breathed with life by the Spirit in order to be considered human.
Quote
We are simply dots of liquid.
Adam was dust.
Jesus was substances inside womb.

As for Jesus was a Spirit of God becoming Jesus. That is the believe of Christians when interpreting their books. As they believe in concept of a God with parts of God. Or simply three distinct Gods but all having equality in oneness.

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2016, 08:11:05 am »
There is another interesting quotation regarding this discourse:

Quote
'Allamah Al-Alusi, the author of the famous Tafsir. Ruh al-Ma’ani has reported an episode from the court of Caliph Harun al-Rashid where a Christian physician entered into a debate against the scholar 'Ali ibn al-Husayn al-Wiqidi challenging him that his Book (the Qur'an) has a particular word which indicates that Sayyidna 'Isa (as) [i.e. Jesus] is a part of Allah. And as a proof, he read out the verse [4:](171) which carries the words: [Arabic for: ruhim-minhu] (a spirit from Him). 'Allamah al-Wiqidi came up with a rejoinder and recited another verse (45:13) of the Qur'an: [Arabic text of verse] (The meaning of the verse is that everything that there is in the heavens and the earth is from the same Allah where the word - minhu: from Him - serves to attribute everything to Allah) and said: 'If (ruhim-minhu: a spirit from Him means, as you think, that Sayyidna 'Isa (as) is a part of Allah, then, the verse I have just recited would mean that every thing in the heavens and the earth is also a part of Allah?'

Mufti Shafi Usmani, Tafseer-e-Maariful Quran (English), Volume 2, Pg. 638
Source: https://ia802707.us.archive.org/2/items/maarifulquran-english-pdf/MaarifulquranEnglishPdf-Vol2-Page616-672ByMuftiShafiUsmaniRah.pdf

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2016, 02:40:41 pm »

Be! is a word

If you could quote directly from the Koran, that would help, thanks ( please do include chapter and verse )

Offline brian464

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Re: Why the Koran is not against the pre-conception Divinity of Christ
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2016, 02:42:22 pm »

Jesus was substances inside womb.

Again, if you could quote directly from the Koran, including chapter and verse, that would help, thanks