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Offline khdrb

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the lie that muslims killed 270 million
« on: March 13, 2016, 06:00:48 pm »
hello dear brothers of islam. lots of lies and plots are being made on islam as this new lie on youtube and facebook by those liars such as bill warner,  I would like to share this with you , so you can public it.

ed4444.tumblr.com/post/9078777434/the-lie-that-muslims-have-killed-270-million

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: the lie that muslims killed 270 million
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2016, 09:56:22 pm »
Nice article.

Don't know much about the other figures, but I had previously come across the Hindu figures, so I know a few things about this. The following is relevant in this case:

Quote
[K. S. Lal's] work has come under criticism by historians such as Simon Digby (School of Oriental and African Studies) and Irfan Habib for its agenda and lack of accurate data in pre-census times.
(...) Disputers of the "conversion by the sword theory" point to the presence of the large Muslim communities found in Southern India, Sri Lanka, Western Burma, Bangladesh, Southern Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia coupled with the distinctive lack of equivalent Muslim communities around the heartland of historical Muslim empires in the Indian subcontinent as refutation to the "conversion by the sword theory". The legacy of the Muslim conquest of South Asia is a hotly debated issue and argued even today. Different population estimates by economics historian Angus Maddison and by Jean-Noël Biraben also indicate that India's population did not decrease between 1000 and 1500, but increased by about 35 million during that time.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_India

A very relevant and extensive article was put up by thedebateinitiative.com:
http://thedebateinitiative.com/2016/01/11/the-myth-of-destroyed-hindu-temples-and-forced-conversion-of-hindus-by-historical-muslim-rulers-of-india/

One of the important points made here, is the fact that rulers cannot rule over the majority people by harshly persecuting them. The rulers need their loyalty. Muslim kings routinely employed Hindu generals and soldiers in their armies. Mahmud of Ghazni apparently, out of a total of 12, had 5 Hindu generals and 35% Hindu soldiers in his army.

Additionally, I once looked up the number of slave rebellions in Muslim parts. I only checked the Wikipedia article, so my information is probably incomplete, but there was only a single record of any salve rebellion under the Muslim caliphs and even that instance is argued by some historians as more of a rebellion of the lowest social classes of the society (which would have included slaves) instead of an exclusively slave rebellion.

I'm not a historian so I can't say for sure, but from what I've read it seems when slaves were treated badly enough up to a threshold point, their rebellions started (which probably includes the most famous one in Haiti). In Muslim areas whether their conditions were bad or not, it apparently never reached that threshold breaking point. I believe a similar situation probably exists for the lack of huge Hindu revolts in India.

Additionally, I don't know if you are aware of the unreliable nature of the number given for the killed of Banu Qurayzah. In case you didn't know about this, there is a comprehensive article authored by Kaleef K. Karim & Aliyu Musa Misau:
http://discover-the-truth.com/2016/01/01/re-examining-banu-qurayzah-incident/
(The 9th and 10th headings are the most relevant to the present discussion)

Also, again in case you were unaware of this, there is a Facebook page "Exposing Britain First" where the contributors routinely try to counteract the propaganda spread by Britain First.
https://www.facebook.com/Exposing0Britain0First

Regards,

Offline khdrb

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Re: the lie that muslims killed 270 million
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2016, 08:20:43 am »
jazak allah khayran.
sallam alaykum.

as you can see it's obvious British re-historians actions demonizing Islam not to feel ashamed , and guilty at their bloody history.

Shall we believe that Bill Warner or his type of people have a Time machine and can go back in time to see what happens exactly ?

They are forcing all to believe by lies and that Muslims are a threat to the now roman nation with holy Quran and Hadith ideology , same as they forced them to believe in Crucifixion but without killing/burning just better updated lies. are they looking forward to kill all Muslims for their people sins now?

but i can see that it's only lies by re-historian just blaming everything happens by barbarian or mongols on Islam. and some of them says that Genghis khan who uses the Y.A.S.A.C. laws was a Muslim also. some of them says Hitler was a Muslim and accepted killing 6million Jew as an order from mufti Al quds 'Al-Hussaini'.

As you can see non of them says how many Muslims killed by mongols , Hindu , barbarian , British , America , Israel , in Africa...etc. they are just blaming Islam on everything happens in history. we are being fought from every direction for accepting to be a part of this unjust nation. so they are proofed liars that way. can they admit that they killed 1000 million red Indian according to Las Casas book their historian and a witness of what happened there?

yes i know about bani Quraiza there is also a Hadith tells that the killed were 40 man :-

اخلتفت الروايات حول عدد قتلى يهود بني قريظة، فمن الروايات التي ذكرت 400، 500، 600، 700، و 900 إلا أن هذه الروايات كلها في إسنادها و متنها نظر، و الثابت من هذا كله ما رواه ابن زنجويه :
(ثنا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ صَالِحٍ ، حَدَّثَنِي اللَّيْثُ بْنُ سَعْدٍ ، حَدَّثَنِي عُقَيْلٌ ، عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ ، أَنّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ” غَدَا إِلَى بَنِي قُرَيْظَةَ ، فَحَاصَرَهُمْ حَتَّى نَزَلُوا عَلَى حُكْمِ سَعْدِ بْنِ مُعَاذٍ ، فَقَضَى بِأَنْ يُقْتَلَ رِجَالُهُمْ ، وَتُقْسَمَ ذَرَارِيُّهُمْ وَأَمْوَالُهُمْ ، فَقُتِلَ مِنْهُمْ يَوْمَئِذٍ أَرْبَعُونَ رَجُلا ، إِلا عَمْرَو بْنَ سَعْدٍ ، فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : إِنَّهُ كَانَ يَأْمُرُ بِالْوَفَاءِ ، وَيَنْهَى عَنِ الْغَدْرِ فَلِذَلِكَ نَجَا . وَدَفَعَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ الزُّبَيْرَ إِلَى ثَابِتِ بْنِ قَيْسِ بْنِ شَمَّاسٍ ، فَأَعْتَقَهُ..) (9)
قلت (أبو إسلام المغربي)، إسناده صحيح و رجاله رجال الصحيح.

sorry i didn't find the translated one. so the number by credible sources is from 40-400 man as a political solution by Jewish laws ,ordered by an reverted EX-Jew 'Sa'ad Ben Moath' who knows their laws. this is not even mentioned in the Jewish encyclopedia by Samuel Usque because it's obvious military action and by Jews laws.

The British scholar Re-historian 'Tom Holland' made another book accuses Muslims of something that they never did from credible history books . he also accused them of the fallen of old Rome , while it is known that the inside barbarians was the reason for it as Edward Gibbon fall of roman empire book tells.

and about Hindu temple destruction there is no credible source says that Muslims destroyed them , also another British re-historian like 'Stephen Knapp' takes it from some Hindu liars,  and some Muslim scholars.

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/islamic_destruction_of_hindu_temples.htm

about the 80 million killed Hindu by Muslims is also a proofed lie by credible history books, just a lying action by English re-historians who oppressed hindu big time and they wants to turn their hate on muslims to win them as a Paul methodology. why they doesn't re-history their-selves and see how many one died of protestant and catholic wars in medieval church wars ? millions died, 30% population of Germany, 7 million died there, and lots of millions in whole Europe. how many gospel they burned? or  how many they burned for not believing in greek roman gospels?

they are also blaming enslaving Africans by Muslims, where Europeans were the en-slavers by proofs in history , look at the biggest pirate of his time John Hawkins history , who was a pirate and a partner with queen Elizabeth the first for enslaving Africans in the name of Jesus(pbuh) and by a ships called Jesus (pbuh).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hawkins_%28naval_commander%29

so they are just demonizing us in the name of Jesus(pbuh) and the new roman empire that still worship ATTIS/Mithra statue in New-York ,and who still doing the same time yearly birthday for their stone idols.

sorry for bad english.

your brother.
khdr
 
from.
jordan

Offline Idris

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Re: the lie that muslims killed 270 million
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2016, 10:38:10 am »
As-Salamu Aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,

It can be proved that the assertion that 400, 600, 800 or 900 men of Banu Qurayza were beheaded cannot be true; and that it is a later invention, which has a source in the Jewish tradition. There is a strong possibility to think that the Banu Qurajza incident does not even took place. I recommend you to read the following book by Barakat Ahmad:

Link: https://archive.org/details/MuhammadAndTheJewsAReExaminationByBarakatAhmad

Take care, and Salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)

Offline khdrb

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Re: the lie that muslims killed 270 million
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2016, 02:56:40 pm »
jazak allahu khayran brother idris.

you are in Poland ? it's so hard for Muslims in there, they hates Islam more than Russia people. do polish people revert after all that media brain wash? is it still not allowed to build mosques in there ?

Offline Idris

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Re: the lie that muslims killed 270 million
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2016, 06:29:45 pm »
jazak allahu khayran brother idris.

you are in Poland ? it's so hard for Muslims in there, they hates Islam more than Russia people. do polish people revert after all that media brain wash? is it still not allowed to build mosques in there ?

Yes brother, I live in Poland, and it is true that they hates Islam… probably more than any other countries in that Planet ! As I remarked, they are commonly known for their extreme racism. They would accept a black Christian rather than a white Muslim. Fortunately my mother is Polish, so my appearance is a little bit different from that of typical Arab (my father is an Algerian), and I know how to talk with those Polish peoples. Every time when some of them enter discussion with me about religion topic and tried somehow to criticize Islam, I immediately point out to him - by quoting them a controversial facts about the criminal history of their Church etc. - that he should check his belief first. And usually the result is that they close their mouth. You might say that Polish media have done pretty nice and effective brainwash to Polish nation, so that almost entire Poland believe now that Islam is very bad and dangerous. Their media constantly warning them that if they will not do anything - e.g. stop to accepting Syrian immigrants - their children will become Muslims one day, and they will be thought about terrorism, how to kill and do other horrible things. At the same time Polish media censuring every detail about Islam which would contain some true information. It's so pathetic that they do not talk publicly - in the media - about their doubtful Christian faith behind of which is hidden the darkest history the world ever heard !
They say that Muslims killed 270 million ?

Well, as I see this claim was nicely refuted here: http://ed4444.tumblr.com/post/9078777434/the-lie-that-muslims-have-killed-270-million

Ironically it is their main Church – i.e. Roman Church - who according to the historical account have killed over 50 million in the Europe alone! In worldwide scale some Christian historians estimates about 150+ million people that was killed by Church Inquisition. I find it quite interesting to provide this quotation, and I will share it here insha’Allah. Honestly speaking, their Vatican Church – the center of majority of the Christian world - along with their Popes is the true descendant of the Antichrist under the blasphemous title 666. Please refer to the link below:

Link: http://biblelight.net/666.htm

Michael Scheifler has exposed Roman Church and destroyed it for good. Without doubt, he provides on this matter a knockout evidences. As far as I know it cannot be refuted, since the references comes directly from the Vatican documents, and other historical sources. Michael has done a good job. Some Catholic Christians tried to refute his claims but they failed. His extensive work is the strongest indefensible counter against all Christians who claimed that Islam is the Antichrist, 666 etc.

Take care, and Salam,
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)

Offline Idris

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Re: the lie that muslims killed 270 million
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2016, 06:56:31 pm »
is it still not allowed to build mosques in there ?

I'm sorry I did not answered on your last question.
Well, at this moment there are three mosques in Warsaw, one of them newly builded in 2015. Generally, Polish people voted – perhaps in the last Referendum - to not allowing build any mosque, but according to some informations from 01.10.2015 there will be a new mosque investigated by the Ahmadiyya Muslim Society.

Offline Idris

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Re: the lie that muslims killed 270 million
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2016, 07:10:50 am »
As-Salamu Aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,

In the link below you may find many quotations from the Christian historians concerning estimates of the number of innocent peoples that were put to death in cold blood by the Roman Church:

Link: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/estimates.html

Take care, and Salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)

Offline khdrb

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Re: the lie that muslims killed 270 million
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2016, 06:17:30 am »
someone has deleted the link here is the whole stuff

The lie that Muslims have killed 270 million Back on the 9th December last year I came again across the claim that “Islam is the bloodiest religion ever” and has killed 270 million people. This claim was made on Facebook by a supporter of the English Defence League. The usual twaddle about “educate yourself”, which is right up there with other catchphrases like “Do your research” and “Open your eyes”. This is the original comment to which I was responding. "This is a world problem. They have killed 270 million non-Muslims. Isn’t that enough? And they do it brutally. You must educate yourself." As I suspected that an EDL supporter’s ‘research’ amounts to believing and repeating whatever it says on some Islamophobic website and knowing the claimed death toll was ridiculous, I decided to investigate the claims. Below is my reply to the EDL supporter, which was very comprehensive, in its entirety. I came across the website and the claim was made by Bill Warner, who gave sources for his claims. I therefore actually went and investigated his sources, discovering that for the most part he was claiming things that weren’t even mentioned in his sources. *********************************************************************************** Right, let’s have a look at the source of this claim. This gives the sources: http://cafejohn.com/is-islam-the-bloodiest-ideology-ever/ "Africans Thomas Sowell estimates that eleven million slaves were shipped across the Atlantic and fourteen million were sent to the Islamic nations of North Africa and the Middle East. David Livingstone estimated that for every slave who reached the plantation, five others died by being killed in the raid or died on the forced march from illness and privation. So, for 25 million slaves delivered to the market, we have the collateral death of about 120 million people. Muslims ran all the wholesale slave trade in Africa. Death toll: 120 million Africans” First of all the 5 to 1 ratio is based on an estimate by one man, who was in one part of Africa for a limited period of the history of slavery, and who was making a guess. Secondly 25 million times 5 is 125 million. A more reliable estimate, i.e. not one based on a single eye witness making a rough guess, is Rummel. Rummel estimates a total death toll of 17,267,000 African slaves (1451-1870) Among slaves going to Orient: 2,400,000 dead Among slaves staying in Africa: 1,200,000 dead Among slaves going to New World: 13,667,000 dead Also [Thomas Sowell estimates] 11 million of those slaves were transported by Christian slavers, who seem to be strangely absent from the narrative, with huge numbers dying on the way. "Christians The number of Christians martyred by Islam is nine million. A rough estimate by Raphael Moore in History of Asia Minor is that another fifty million died in wars by jihad. So to account for the one million African Christians killed in the 20th century we have: 60 million Christians” David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-10, the source of the nine million Christians killed, pops up all over the place when it comes to doing just what you’re doing. Martyrdom according to them can include accidents, killing people for money, martyrdom where only the victim knows they’re a martyr and domestic violence. In other words any Christian that is killed for any reason is a martyr. They also speak of “End Times” as part of their future projection, a religious fundamentalist belief that somewhat makes me doubt the credibility of their claims. They claim that 9.1 million Christians have been killed by Muslims, but also say that 7.47 million have been killed by shamanists, 5.3 million by other Christians and 31.7 million have been killed by atheists. David B. Barrett also wrote the World Christian Encyclopedia that "consistently gave a higher estimate for percent Christian in comparison to other cross-national data sets", so he inflates figures in other words. "A rough estimate by Raphael Moore in History of Asia Minor is that another fifty million died in wars by jihad." Hooray, a ‘rough estimate’! What Moore actually says is: "Between the tolls exacted from prisons, concentration camps, forced marches and exiles, warfare, famine, and brutal military occupation, it is reasonable to conclude that up to 50 million Orthodox Christians have perished in the first eight decades of the twentieth century." http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/memoryof.htm That’s as a cause of all persecution, not just Muslims. So that includes Communism and Nazism. He [Raphael Moore] gives the death toll of Orthodox Christians by the Ottoman Empire as 3,650,000. So that knocks 46,350,000 off the 270 million figure straight away. "Hindus Koenard Elst in Negationism in India gives an estimate of eighty million Hindus killed in the total jihad against India. The country of India today is only half the size of ancient India, due to jihad. Death toll: 80 million Hindus” Koenraad Elst is a contributer to various Far Right publications and has a particular dislike for Islam that he compares to Nazism. That’s not a good start if we are looking for an unbiased source! So this is what he [Koenraad Elst] uses for his belief that Muslims killed 80 million Hindus: http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/books/negaind/ch2.htm "As a contribution to research on the quantity of the Islamic crimes against humanity, we may mention Prof. K.S.Lal’s estimates about the population figures in medieval India (Growth of Muslim Population in India). According to his calculations, the Indian (subcontinent) population decreased by 80 million between 1000 (conquest of Afghanistan) and 1525 (end of Delhi Sultanate). More research is needed before we can settle for a quantitatively accurate evaluation of Muslim rule in India, but at least we know for sure that the term crime against humanity is not exaggerated." K. Elst, Negationism in India. So in other words the Muslim genocide against Hindus is based on nothing more than population decline over 525 years! That could be a natural decline, famines or plagues! Seeing as white British birthrates have dropped over the last 40 years, shall we say the Muslims are committing genocide against British whites? "Buddhists Jihad killed the Buddhists in Turkey, Afghanistan, along the Silk Route, and in India. The total is roughly ten million. Death toll: 10 million Buddhists” The reference for that is given as “Barrett and Johnson, table 4”, which in fact lists the types of Christian martyrs and makes no mention of Buddhists whatsoever. In fact they only mention the 1.81 million Christians killed by Buddhists. The only other references to the 10 million figure are the various neo-Nazi and anti-Muslim websites that abound. So that’s another 10 million that can’t be accounted for. "Jews The jihad in Arabia was 100 percent effective but the numbers were in the thousands, not millions. After that the Jews submitted and became the dhimmis (servants and second class citizens) of Islam and did not have geographic political power.” No references for this at all, but the Jews only formed a few scattered tribes in Arabia anyway (they weren’t a majority that was wiped out by Islam) and still constitute a minority. Jews never had the status of Christians in Christian countries anyway and actually were better treated in Muslim ones. Christians had a nasty habit in indulging in pogroms. Please tell us what happened to the American Indian native religions when America was settled by Christians? "This gives a rough estimate of 270 million killed by jihad." Rough as in give or take 256,350,000! Let’s go back to the person who compiled all this information and came up with the 270 million figure. "For the first time I have seen the estimate of Islamic death toll in an interview with Bill Warner, the director of the Center for the Study of Political Islam. I have put the numbers into the context of other well know brutal world atrocities." Bill Warner’s website has on its blog page an article that compares the Koran to Mein Kampf, which is a breach of Godwin’s Law straight away. If this was an academic paper about Islam that would discredit it immediately. It also contains an article entitled “An Ethical Basis for War Against Political Islam” and there’s this too: http://www.zimbio.com/Islam/articles/jPX5qkzcZIq/TWO+BILL+WARNER+Bill+Warner+director+Center "We must form political units that work in unison. Our nation started with conventions. Kafirs must get together in forums, groups and conventions. Before any government goes to war against political Islam, it must be pressured to do so by its citizens." "Any convention must form an intellectual basis for war. That is, it must define the enemy. It is the purpose of the enemy, Islam, to annihilate our kafir civilization." So in other words he wants World War III against Muslims. Well his figure of 270 million killed by Muslims is just bound to be completely unrelated to him saying that Islam is an enemy that must be destroyed! *********************************************************************************** I’ve since encountered this ridiculous claim by someone who obviously lusts for a genocidal world war on his website “Political Islam”, which is here: http://www.politicalislam.com/tears/pages/tears-of-jihad/ It’s been repeated everywhere and is always used as a reason to terrify people about Muslims. According to the actual sources provided by Warner that give actual figures of people killed by Muslims, not his guesses, and including Rummel’s genocide figures that I used, the death toll comes down to: 3.6 million non-Christian Africans not 120 million (2,400,000 dead slaves going to the Orient + 1,200,000 dead slaves staying in Africa). 9.1 million Christians not 60 million. Even that may be an over-estimate though, because of the questionable methods of David B. Barrett. Warner claims 9 million Christians were martyred by Islam, but then includes all 50 million Orthodox Christians killed by Communism and Nazism as being victims of Islam. He also includes "one million African Christians killed in the 20th century", which he gives no source for to prove whether they were all killed by Muslims or if that figure is even true. So he says 9 million Christians have been killed by Islam in total, then adds another 51 million to that total! An indeterminate number of Hindus not 80 million. Obviously Hindus are killed by Muslims, but with no actual figures we will have to ignore Warner’s 80 million figure. An indeterminate number of Buddhists not 10 million. Obviously Buddhists are killed by Muslims, but with no actual figures we will have to ignore Warner’s 10 million figure. No genocide of the Jews in Saudi Arabia. This seems to stem from the incident at the Battle of the Trench in 627 in which the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza, who were allies of the Muslims, swapped sides and fought against them. As a result of their treachery 400 to 900 men of the tribe were killed and the women and children were enslaved. However this sentence was carried out in accordance to Jewish law, as in the Torah, on the decree of the chief of another Jewish tribe who were still allied to the Muslims. This plus mistranslated passages in the Koran is part of the Islamophobic belief that Islam is anti-Semitic and Mohammed rampaged round Arabia slaughtering Jews. The fact of the matter is that they were not killed for being Jews but for being traitors. For comparison during the First Crusade in 1096 at least 800 Jews were killed at Worms and 1,100 Jews were killed at Mainz by Christians for being Jews. Yet the English Defence League model themselves on crusaders. During the Black Death in 1349 Jews were suspected of causing the plague by poisoning wells, so 600 Jews were burned alive in Basel, between 900 and 2,000 Jews were burned alive in Strasbourg, another 420 Jews were massacred in Worms, 6,000 Jews died in Mainz and another 4,000 Jews in Breslau. Tens of thousands of Jews were murdered during the Black Death, all by Christians for being Jewish. Total = 12.7 million not 270 million people killed by Muslims over about 1,400 years and not specifically in the name of Islam either. The Ottomans didn’t kill the Armenians in the name of Islam for instance. A similar number of Jews, Poles, Soviet POWs, Romani, disabled people, socialists, trade unionists, homosexuals, pacifists and Jehovah’s Witnesses were exterminated over a 6 year period by Christians. Previously in my haste I accidentally left out the Africans who died in North Africa and the Middle East, and didn’t include the 3.65 million Christian victims of the Ottoman Empire and the mysterious 1 million African Christians figure in the rounded down Christian total of 9 million. A double count of Christian deaths in other words. That was 9 million + 3.65 million + 1 million = 13.65 million. This time it goes 9.1 million + 3.6 million = 12.7 million, meaning that Bill Warner was out by 257.3 million.

Offline khdrb

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Re: the lie that muslims killed 270 million
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2016, 06:25:06 am »
i knew they will delete it so i copied it in a word document. they deleted it from all webs.

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: the lie that muslims killed 270 million
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2016, 09:08:06 am »
@khdrb

Your tumblr post page had already been already archived at-least 5 different times. You can access it here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150630063745/http://ed4444.tumblr.com/post/9078777434/the-lie-that-muslims-have-killed-270-million

Regards,

Offline IndonesianStranger

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Re: the lie that muslims killed 270 million
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2016, 05:00:32 pm »
someone has deleted the link here is the whole stuff

The lie that Muslims have killed 270 million Back on the 9th December last year I came again across the claim that “Islam is the bloodiest religion ever” and has killed 270 million people. This claim was made on Facebook by a supporter of the English Defence League. The usual twaddle about “educate yourself”, which is right up there with other catchphrases like “Do your research” and “Open your eyes”. This is the original comment to which I was responding. "This is a world problem. They have killed 270 million non-Muslims. Isn’t that enough? And they do it brutally. You must educate yourself." As I suspected that an EDL supporter’s ‘research’ amounts to believing and repeating whatever it says on some Islamophobic website and knowing the claimed death toll was ridiculous, I decided to investigate the claims. Below is my reply to the EDL supporter, which was very comprehensive, in its entirety. I came across the website and the claim was made by Bill Warner, who gave sources for his claims. I therefore actually went and investigated his sources, discovering that for the most part he was claiming things that weren’t even mentioned in his sources. *********************************************************************************** Right, let’s have a look at the source of this claim. This gives the sources: http://cafejohn.com/is-islam-the-bloodiest-ideology-ever/ "Africans Thomas Sowell estimates that eleven million slaves were shipped across the Atlantic and fourteen million were sent to the Islamic nations of North Africa and the Middle East. David Livingstone estimated that for every slave who reached the plantation, five others died by being killed in the raid or died on the forced march from illness and privation. So, for 25 million slaves delivered to the market, we have the collateral death of about 120 million people. Muslims ran all the wholesale slave trade in Africa. Death toll: 120 million Africans” First of all the 5 to 1 ratio is based on an estimate by one man, who was in one part of Africa for a limited period of the history of slavery, and who was making a guess. Secondly 25 million times 5 is 125 million. A more reliable estimate, i.e. not one based on a single eye witness making a rough guess, is Rummel. Rummel estimates a total death toll of 17,267,000 African slaves (1451-1870) Among slaves going to Orient: 2,400,000 dead Among slaves staying in Africa: 1,200,000 dead Among slaves going to New World: 13,667,000 dead Also [Thomas Sowell estimates] 11 million of those slaves were transported by Christian slavers, who seem to be strangely absent from the narrative, with huge numbers dying on the way. "Christians The number of Christians martyred by Islam is nine million. A rough estimate by Raphael Moore in History of Asia Minor is that another fifty million died in wars by jihad. So to account for the one million African Christians killed in the 20th century we have: 60 million Christians” David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-10, the source of the nine million Christians killed, pops up all over the place when it comes to doing just what you’re doing. Martyrdom according to them can include accidents, killing people for money, martyrdom where only the victim knows they’re a martyr and domestic violence. In other words any Christian that is killed for any reason is a martyr. They also speak of “End Times” as part of their future projection, a religious fundamentalist belief that somewhat makes me doubt the credibility of their claims. They claim that 9.1 million Christians have been killed by Muslims, but also say that 7.47 million have been killed by shamanists, 5.3 million by other Christians and 31.7 million have been killed by atheists. David B. Barrett also wrote the World Christian Encyclopedia that "consistently gave a higher estimate for percent Christian in comparison to other cross-national data sets", so he inflates figures in other words. "A rough estimate by Raphael Moore in History of Asia Minor is that another fifty million died in wars by jihad." Hooray, a ‘rough estimate’! What Moore actually says is: "Between the tolls exacted from prisons, concentration camps, forced marches and exiles, warfare, famine, and brutal military occupation, it is reasonable to conclude that up to 50 million Orthodox Christians have perished in the first eight decades of the twentieth century." http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/memoryof.htm That’s as a cause of all persecution, not just Muslims. So that includes Communism and Nazism. He [Raphael Moore] gives the death toll of Orthodox Christians by the Ottoman Empire as 3,650,000. So that knocks 46,350,000 off the 270 million figure straight away. "Hindus Koenard Elst in Negationism in India gives an estimate of eighty million Hindus killed in the total jihad against India. The country of India today is only half the size of ancient India, due to jihad. Death toll: 80 million Hindus” Koenraad Elst is a contributer to various Far Right publications and has a particular dislike for Islam that he compares to Nazism. That’s not a good start if we are looking for an unbiased source! So this is what he [Koenraad Elst] uses for his belief that Muslims killed 80 million Hindus: http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/books/negaind/ch2.htm "As a contribution to research on the quantity of the Islamic crimes against humanity, we may mention Prof. K.S.Lal’s estimates about the population figures in medieval India (Growth of Muslim Population in India). According to his calculations, the Indian (subcontinent) population decreased by 80 million between 1000 (conquest of Afghanistan) and 1525 (end of Delhi Sultanate). More research is needed before we can settle for a quantitatively accurate evaluation of Muslim rule in India, but at least we know for sure that the term crime against humanity is not exaggerated." K. Elst, Negationism in India. So in other words the Muslim genocide against Hindus is based on nothing more than population decline over 525 years! That could be a natural decline, famines or plagues! Seeing as white British birthrates have dropped over the last 40 years, shall we say the Muslims are committing genocide against British whites? "Buddhists Jihad killed the Buddhists in Turkey, Afghanistan, along the Silk Route, and in India. The total is roughly ten million. Death toll: 10 million Buddhists” The reference for that is given as “Barrett and Johnson, table 4”, which in fact lists the types of Christian martyrs and makes no mention of Buddhists whatsoever. In fact they only mention the 1.81 million Christians killed by Buddhists. The only other references to the 10 million figure are the various neo-Nazi and anti-Muslim websites that abound. So that’s another 10 million that can’t be accounted for. "Jews The jihad in Arabia was 100 percent effective but the numbers were in the thousands, not millions. After that the Jews submitted and became the dhimmis (servants and second class citizens) of Islam and did not have geographic political power.” No references for this at all, but the Jews only formed a few scattered tribes in Arabia anyway (they weren’t a majority that was wiped out by Islam) and still constitute a minority. Jews never had the status of Christians in Christian countries anyway and actually were better treated in Muslim ones. Christians had a nasty habit in indulging in pogroms. Please tell us what happened to the American Indian native religions when America was settled by Christians? "This gives a rough estimate of 270 million killed by jihad." Rough as in give or take 256,350,000! Let’s go back to the person who compiled all this information and came up with the 270 million figure. "For the first time I have seen the estimate of Islamic death toll in an interview with Bill Warner, the director of the Center for the Study of Political Islam. I have put the numbers into the context of other well know brutal world atrocities." Bill Warner’s website has on its blog page an article that compares the Koran to Mein Kampf, which is a breach of Godwin’s Law straight away. If this was an academic paper about Islam that would discredit it immediately. It also contains an article entitled “An Ethical Basis for War Against Political Islam” and there’s this too: http://www.zimbio.com/Islam/articles/jPX5qkzcZIq/TWO+BILL+WARNER+Bill+Warner+director+Center "We must form political units that work in unison. Our nation started with conventions. Kafirs must get together in forums, groups and conventions. Before any government goes to war against political Islam, it must be pressured to do so by its citizens." "Any convention must form an intellectual basis for war. That is, it must define the enemy. It is the purpose of the enemy, Islam, to annihilate our kafir civilization." So in other words he wants World War III against Muslims. Well his figure of 270 million killed by Muslims is just bound to be completely unrelated to him saying that Islam is an enemy that must be destroyed! *********************************************************************************** I’ve since encountered this ridiculous claim by someone who obviously lusts for a genocidal world war on his website “Political Islam”, which is here: http://www.politicalislam.com/tears/pages/tears-of-jihad/ It’s been repeated everywhere and is always used as a reason to terrify people about Muslims. According to the actual sources provided by Warner that give actual figures of people killed by Muslims, not his guesses, and including Rummel’s genocide figures that I used, the death toll comes down to: 3.6 million non-Christian Africans not 120 million (2,400,000 dead slaves going to the Orient + 1,200,000 dead slaves staying in Africa). 9.1 million Christians not 60 million. Even that may be an over-estimate though, because of the questionable methods of David B. Barrett. Warner claims 9 million Christians were martyred by Islam, but then includes all 50 million Orthodox Christians killed by Communism and Nazism as being victims of Islam. He also includes "one million African Christians killed in the 20th century", which he gives no source for to prove whether they were all killed by Muslims or if that figure is even true. So he says 9 million Christians have been killed by Islam in total, then adds another 51 million to that total! An indeterminate number of Hindus not 80 million. Obviously Hindus are killed by Muslims, but with no actual figures we will have to ignore Warner’s 80 million figure. An indeterminate number of Buddhists not 10 million. Obviously Buddhists are killed by Muslims, but with no actual figures we will have to ignore Warner’s 10 million figure. No genocide of the Jews in Saudi Arabia. This seems to stem from the incident at the Battle of the Trench in 627 in which the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza, who were allies of the Muslims, swapped sides and fought against them. As a result of their treachery 400 to 900 men of the tribe were killed and the women and children were enslaved. However this sentence was carried out in accordance to Jewish law, as in the Torah, on the decree of the chief of another Jewish tribe who were still allied to the Muslims. This plus mistranslated passages in the Koran is part of the Islamophobic belief that Islam is anti-Semitic and Mohammed rampaged round Arabia slaughtering Jews. The fact of the matter is that they were not killed for being Jews but for being traitors. For comparison during the First Crusade in 1096 at least 800 Jews were killed at Worms and 1,100 Jews were killed at Mainz by Christians for being Jews. Yet the English Defence League model themselves on crusaders. During the Black Death in 1349 Jews were suspected of causing the plague by poisoning wells, so 600 Jews were burned alive in Basel, between 900 and 2,000 Jews were burned alive in Strasbourg, another 420 Jews were massacred in Worms, 6,000 Jews died in Mainz and another 4,000 Jews in Breslau. Tens of thousands of Jews were murdered during the Black Death, all by Christians for being Jewish. Total = 12.7 million not 270 million people killed by Muslims over about 1,400 years and not specifically in the name of Islam either. The Ottomans didn’t kill the Armenians in the name of Islam for instance. A similar number of Jews, Poles, Soviet POWs, Romani, disabled people, socialists, trade unionists, homosexuals, pacifists and Jehovah’s Witnesses were exterminated over a 6 year period by Christians. Previously in my haste I accidentally left out the Africans who died in North Africa and the Middle East, and didn’t include the 3.65 million Christian victims of the Ottoman Empire and the mysterious 1 million African Christians figure in the rounded down Christian total of 9 million. A double count of Christian deaths in other words. That was 9 million + 3.65 million + 1 million = 13.65 million. This time it goes 9.1 million + 3.6 million = 12.7 million, meaning that Bill Warner was out by 257.3 million.


Brother can you please give the paragraph to the post? It's si hard for me to read it.

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Offline IndonesianStranger

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Re: the lie that muslims killed 270 million
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2016, 10:10:01 am »
@IndonesianStranger,

As mentioned above, you can use:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150630063745/http://ed4444.tumblr.com/post/9078777434/the-lie-that-muslims-have-killed-270-million


Ah .. thanks bro.  :D
Btw, I've just read the article and I saw the part that said "the Ottomans did not kill the Armenians in the name of Islam". Now my question is why exactly did the Ottomans killed the Armenians?? Not that I doubt that. I believe that the Turks did not killed them because of Islam. I just wondering why.

Thx

Offline submit

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Re: the lie that muslims killed 270 million
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2016, 10:54:25 am »
if you look at pictures in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

there are no photos of mass killings in thousands.
So the death tolls are largely accounted due to sickness,starvation and exhaustion after the exile.