Author Topic: Need help with refutation  (Read 1541 times)

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Offline Islam1st

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Need help with refutation
« on: July 12, 2016, 06:19:48 AM »
I need help with an argument i am in, I will include the discussion below (note i am copying his words down and i am not slandering Islam) His argument is in red and mine is in blue.

Him: so you're saying "I am telling you what scholars of the past and present have interpreted".

DON'T YOU AND YOUR SCHOLARS KNOW ALLAH HAS STRICTLY FORBIDDEN ANY INTERPRETATION BY MEN.
ONLY ALLAH HIMSELF CAN INTERPRET IS QURAN.

3.7. It is He who has sent down to you, the Book; IN IT ARE VERSES THAT ARE PRECISE - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation, they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation. AND NO ONE KNOWS ITS INTERPRETATION EXCEPT ALLAH. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

"NO ONE KNOWS ITS INTERPRETATION EXCEPT ALLAH."

The Qur'ān must be understood and obeyed litteraly.

Your scholars are described by the Qur'ān as "those in whose hearts is deviation".


Me: “It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) the Book (this Qur’aan). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkaam (commandments), Al-Faraa’id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudood (laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allaah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord.” And none receive admonition except men of understanding”

This seems to be a more PRECISE translation.

“So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation”, i.e., misguidance, and ignoring the truth in favour of falsehood, “they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof” i.e., they interpret that which is not entirely clear in such a way that allows them to distort it to suit their corrupt aims, because the wording could be interpreted in the way they want. But in the case of the verses which are entirely clear, they have no chance of doing that, so that is clear proof against them. Hence Allaah says: “seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials)” i.e., to misguide their followers and give them the impression that they are using evidence from the Qur’aan to support their bid’ah (innovation). This is evidence against them, not for them. It is similar to when the Christians argue that the Qur’aan says that ‘Eesa (Jesus) is a Spirit from God and His Word that He bestowed upon Maryam (Mary), but they ignore the verses in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

He [‘Eesa (Jesus)] was not more than a slave. We granted Our Favour to him …”

[al-Zukhruf 43:59] 

“Verily, the likeness of ‘Eesa (Jesus) before Allaah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: ‘Be!’ — and he was”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:59]

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT ARE YOU DOING, YOU have increased me in my faith. Thank you, this verse is PRECISELY describng you, you try to find interpretations that suit YOU, NOWHERE does it state that the Qur'an must be taken literally. It is talking about how people will try to find interpretations that Suit them

And why do you mention verse: 33:36 and 4:14

And Allah knows best


Him: which translation is it from ?

The translation you are using is FULL of human commentary. Is that what you call "more PRECISE"?


So my question is, the brackets they use, [] is that commentary of the translation? or is the bracket about when it is taken in context?

Offline submit

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Re: Need help with refutation
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2016, 09:26:09 AM »
"NO ONE KNOWS ITS INTERPRETATION EXCEPT ALLAH."

what he said is truth.

example of unclear verse. where all of the translators could not translate it.
http://quran.com/2:1

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Need help with refutation
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2016, 10:27:26 AM »
Sometimes the brackets are a couple words explanation for Arabic words that don't have their equivalent in English. At other times they are to keep the context intact. Most translations don't include the surrounding events for the verse, such information is included in the Tafsirs.

For word-by-word translations you can use: http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp
For up to 53 translations from different (Muslim and non-Muslim) sources.: http://www.islamawakened.com/index.php/qur-an

Regarding your discourse:

Although not entirely incorrect, it would've been better if you hadn't used the words "a more PRECISE translation", "a more descriptive" or "more explanatory" translation would have been better. The thing is Islam or the Qur'an can't really be taken as on an individual level. The whole of religion and scripture has to be taken holistically for a person to be sure (at-least as much as he/she can be) of what the interpretation of a particular verse is.

For example, there is a verse in the Holy Qur'an which says that the punishment for a thief is to cut off his hand. Taken on an individual level, it would mean that all thieves' hands should be cut off. But from the events of Prophet Muhammad and Caliph Umar's lives, we find out that a person's circumstances, the monetary value of the thing that was stolen and the protection that was put on it, all are to be taken into account.

This is what Muhsin Khan's translation is doing, i.e. providing short explanations for things that, although the scholars are well aware of and there is little to no difference of opinion, but for the average reader (especially a non-Muslim reader) are completely unknown.

Regarding his claims,

- "DON'T YOU AND YOUR SCHOLARS KNOW ALLAH HAS STRICTLY FORBIDDEN ANY INTERPRETATION BY MEN.
ONLY ALLAH HIMSELF CAN INTERPRET IS QURAN."

As far as I know, this is completely ludicrous. No verse's interpretation has ever been forbidden by Allah. The most that can be said is that there are some verse about which we can perform our best efforts, spend our entire lives but at the end of the day we cannot ever be absolutely sure whether our interpretation is right or wrong. We will make our laws or ideologies according to our best efforts but will never reject the idea that we can be wrong and have made mistakes.

For example, using the example given by "submit" like Surah 2:1, Quran 20:1 includes the Arabic letters "Ta" and "Ha". According to Shabir Ally it was found that interestingly the letters "Ta" and "Ha" are repeated exactly equal number of times in that Surah. Now this could be the only meaning that was intended by Allah from this verse or there could be several others. Whatever may be the case we can never be sure.

- "NO ONE KNOWS ITS INTERPRETATION EXCEPT ALLAH."

It is a complete non sequitur fallacy to say that because only Allah knows the meaning He has forbidden any research on it. How can someone take such a huge leap and come to this conclusion?

- "Your scholars are described by the Qur'ān as "those in whose hearts is deviation"."

The same argument as for the previous point.

- "The Qur'ān must be understood and obeyed litteraly."

There are both literal and metaphorical verses. What I have personally seen is that unlike the Hadiths literature, there is usually little difference of opinion among scholars on which verse has literal meaning and which has metaphorical.