Author Topic: Apostasy  (Read 14359 times)

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Offline Mohamed Saif

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Apostasy
« on: July 31, 2016, 09:53:30 AM »
Assalamu Alaikum

Dear brother

I read your article on Apostasy in the below link. It was interesting and convincing. I have been researching for years on why Islam Executes Apostates and I have found it on this site.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm
 
But there was another article (not from this site) on Apostasy that states that Apostates should be killed. But they have given valid reasons. It is in contradictory to your article which states that Apostates should not be killed and there is absolute freedom of religion in Islam. Your article states that it was a temporary law at the time of the prophet as Islam was still growing.

So I am not sure which article is accurate. The link for the other article on Apostasy is given below.
http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2012/05/punishment-apostasy-islam-rationale.html
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/of_course_apostates_should_be_killed

Please help me on this

Thank You 

Offline Saudi Salafi

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2016, 10:43:41 AM »
Assalamu Alaikum

Dear brother

I read your article on Apostasy in the below link. It was interesting and convincing. I have been researching for years on why Islam Executes Apostates and I have found it on this site.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm
 
But there was another article (not from this site) on Apostasy that states that Apostates should be killed. But they have given valid reasons. It is in contradictory to your article which states that Apostates should not be killed and there is absolute freedom of religion in Islam. Your article states that it was a temporary law at the time of the prophet as Islam was still growing.

So I am not sure which article is accurate. The link for the other article on Apostasy is given below.
http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2012/05/punishment-apostasy-islam-rationale.html
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/of_course_apostates_should_be_killed

Please help me on this

Thank You

 All scholars agree that apostates should be killed. Osama's points are not valid and the hadith (Who ever changes his religion kill him) is agreed upon and authentic. The article at letmeturnthetables and Bassam Zawadi's articles are the accurate and the true ones. Killing of apostates is also found in the bible.

Offline Mohamed Saif

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2016, 11:29:47 AM »
Assalamu Alaikum

Dear Brother
Thank You for your response. But if Apostates should be executed then isn't it contradicting the Quranic verses of freedom of religion. I'll quote the verses below.

Noble Verse 5:3 ".....This day those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion:  Yet fear them not But fear Me (Allah).  This day have I (Allah) perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your (complete) religion....".

 Noble Verses 15:2-3 "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam.  Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them)."   

 Noble Verses 10:99-100 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand."

Noble Verse 18:29 "Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!"

 Noble Verse 27:92 "And to rehearse the Qur'an: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: 'I am only a Warner.'" 

Noble Verse 10:99 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!"

"No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.  (The Noble Quran, 10:100)"

"Say: 'Behold all that is in the heavens and on earth'; but neither Signs nor Warners profit those who believe not.  Do they then expect (any thing) but (what happened in) the days of the men who passed away before them? Say: 'Wait ye then: for I, too, will wait with you.'  (The Noble Quran, 10:101-102)"

"It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one whom thou lovest; but Allah Guides those whom He will and He Knows those who receive guidance.  (The Noble Quran, 28:56)" 

There are more verses. But these are the ones i quote. According  to these verses God did not prescribe any punishment to apostates. But in fact it says to "leave them alone." So according to theses verses apostates should not be killed. There is absolute freedom of religion in Islam. If the prophet executed apostates then didn't he contradict the Quran. 

Please Reply

Thank You



Offline Saudi Salafi

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2016, 12:01:17 PM »
Assalamu Alaikum

Dear Brother
Thank You for your response. But if Apostates should be executed then isn't it contradicting the Quranic verses of freedom of religion. I'll quote the verses below.

Noble Verse 5:3 ".....This day those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion:  Yet fear them not But fear Me (Allah).  This day have I (Allah) perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your (complete) religion....".

 Noble Verses 15:2-3 "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam.  Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them)."   

 Noble Verses 10:99-100 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand."

Noble Verse 18:29 "Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!"

 Noble Verse 27:92 "And to rehearse the Qur'an: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: 'I am only a Warner.'" 

Noble Verse 10:99 "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!"

"No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.  (The Noble Quran, 10:100)"

"Say: 'Behold all that is in the heavens and on earth'; but neither Signs nor Warners profit those who believe not.  Do they then expect (any thing) but (what happened in) the days of the men who passed away before them? Say: 'Wait ye then: for I, too, will wait with you.'  (The Noble Quran, 10:101-102)"

"It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one whom thou lovest; but Allah Guides those whom He will and He Knows those who receive guidance.  (The Noble Quran, 28:56)" 

There are more verses. But these are the ones i quote. According  to these verses God did not prescribe any punishment to apostates. But in fact it says to "leave them alone." So according to theses verses apostates should not be killed. There is absolute freedom of religion in Islam. If the prophet executed apostates then didn't he contradict the Quran. 

Please Reply

Thank You

 Apostasy is a different thing. The apostate himself is worse than  the kafir. I suggest that you go read the two articles.

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2016, 12:23:27 PM »
Although, the majority opinion has been the capital punishment, over the centuries there have been minority opinions who have differed on the matter like Sufyan Al-Thawri, an 8th-century scholar of Islam. The questions that I raised before, still need to be answered:

Quote
Narrated Sa'd ibn AbuWaqqas:
On the day of the conquest of Mecca, Abdullah ibn Sa'd ibn AbuSarh hid himself with Uthman ibn Affan.
He brought him and made him stand before the Prophet (ﷺ), and said: Accept the allegiance of Abdullah, Messenger of Allah! He raised his head and looked at him three times, refusing him each time, but accepted his allegiance after the third time.
Then turning to his companions, he said: Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?
They said: We did not know what you had in your heart, Messenger of Allah! Why did you not give us a signal with your eye?
He said: It is not advisable for a Prophet to play deceptive tricks with the eyes.

Sunan Abi Dawud 4359, Grade : Sahih (Al-Albani)

And what is the evidence from Qur'an or Hadith which mention that a person who was born in a Muslim family and did not convert to Islam, when such a person adopts a religion different to Islam he should also be killed.

The article you linked to, in my humble opinion has some issues. It talks about a lot of things with little evidence from the original sources of Islam and more from the commentaries of Muslim scholars. From what I know, there have been differing interpretations, while some scholars do hold the ideas that the author quotes, others do not.
The quotation attributed to Al-Tabari does not justify the conclusion that the author (of letmeturnthetables) makes, i.e. 'And to “command the good” and “forbid the wrong” primarily refers to belief and disbelief respectively.'

Offline Awesome31310

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2016, 01:28:20 PM »
Osama Abdullah is unfortunately trying to liberalize Islam, and it is not working out well for him. The general consensus established amongst the Muslim communities of the world is that apostates should be put to death, by stoning. Iran follows this, so does Saudi Arabia.

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2016, 01:56:51 PM »
At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter whether the majority of Muslims believe in the death penalty or not. This is appeal to authority or the bandwagon fallacy.

The relevant thing is whether the original sources of Islam, the Qur'an and Hadith can be used to prove the punishment. The Qur'an doesn't talk about it and even appear to be contradicting the punishment. Hadith literature, on the other hand, is from where the entire evidence for such a punishment comes from. It should be mentioned here, that while Qur'anic interpretation has comparatively less difference of opinion, Hadiths have a lot more debate on their interpretations.

One likely reason earlier Muslim generations did not question the law as much as today's generation does, is because of the difference in their environment. In those times the other major religion Christianity enforced the punishment so Muslims are likely to not have much misgiving about it. An indication of this is seen when past Muslims and even present-day Muslims still use the presence of this punishment in the Bible as evidence of this being a divine law for Islam too. For critical Muslims, such evidence is hugely problematic.

In any case, many arguments have been made against the evidence in support of this punishment which has made it equivocal and uncertain for a lot of Muslims.

Offline TruthExposer777

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2016, 02:15:35 PM »
Did you even read those link's?
It doesn't even count for Today Brother.
Even Many Quran Verse's Refutes this...
I even ade a video about in my youtube channel even Shabir Ally respond this...

Offline Awesome31310

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2016, 02:52:03 PM »
At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter whether the majority of Muslims believe in the death penalty or not. This is appeal to authority or the bandwagon fallacy.

The relevant thing is whether the original sources of Islam, the Qur'an and Hadith can be used to prove the punishment. The Qur'an doesn't talk about it and even appear to be contradicting the punishment. Hadith literature, on the other hand, is from where the entire evidence for such a punishment comes from. It should be mentioned here, that while Qur'anic interpretation has comparatively less difference of opinion, Hadiths have a lot more debate on their interpretations.

One likely reason earlier Muslim generations did not question the law as much as today's generation does, is because of the difference in their environment. In those times the other major religion Christianity enforced the punishment so Muslims are likely to not have much misgiving about it. An indication of this is seen when past Muslims and even present-day Muslims still use the presence of this punishment in the Bible as evidence of this being a divine law for Islam too. For critical Muslims, such evidence is hugely problematic.

In any case, many arguments have been made against the evidence in support of this punishment which has made it equivocal and uncertain for a lot of Muslims.

Excellent post. I should add that, I am close to several, well educated Muslims who have told me that if there is a contradiction with Qur'an and the hadith, the word of the Qur'an shall override the word of the hadith. In other words, the Qur'an is of a greater authority (And, it's not like Christians and the Bible, Muslims acknowledge that hadith can be contradictory or even outright false).

Offline Saudi Salafi

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2016, 09:31:48 PM »
At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter whether the majority of Muslims believe in the death penalty or not. This is appeal to authority or the bandwagon fallacy.

The relevant thing is whether the original sources of Islam, the Qur'an and Hadith can be used to prove the punishment. The Qur'an doesn't talk about it and even appear to be contradicting the punishment. Hadith literature, on the other hand, is from where the entire evidence for such a punishment comes from. It should be mentioned here, that while Qur'anic interpretation has comparatively less difference of opinion, Hadiths have a lot more debate on their interpretations.

One likely reason earlier Muslim generations did not question the law as much as today's generation does, is because of the difference in their environment. In those times the other major religion Christianity enforced the punishment so Muslims are likely to not have much misgiving about it. An indication of this is seen when past Muslims and even present-day Muslims still use the presence of this punishment in the Bible as evidence of this being a divine law for Islam too. For critical Muslims, such evidence is hugely problematic.

In any case, many arguments have been made against the evidence in support of this punishment which has made it equivocal and uncertain for a lot of Muslims.

 So you are stating that the majority of scholars are wrong? Here is the evidence for the killing of the apostates:

Ibn 'Abbas said:
"The Messenger of Allah [SAW] said: 'Whoever changes his religion, kill him.'"
أَخْبَرَنَا عِمْرَانُ بْنُ مُوسَى، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْوَارِثِ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا أَيُّوبُ، عَنْ عِكْرِمَةَ، قَالَ قَالَ ابْنُ عَبَّاسٍ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ مَنْ بَدَّلَ دِينَهُ فَاقْتُلُوهُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏
Grade   : Sahih (Darussalam)   
Reference    : Sunan an-Nasa'i 4059
In-book reference    : Book 37, Hadith 94


Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal:
AbuMusa said: Mu'adh came to me when I was in the Yemen. A man who was Jew embraced Islam and then retreated from Islam. When Mu'adh came, he said: I will not come down from my mount until he is killed. He was then killed.

Grade: Sahih (Al-Albani)

Reference: Sunan Abi Dawud 4355
In-book reference    : Book 40, Hadith 5

Abdullah bin abi Sarh Repented so he wasn't killed. With all due respect, you should stop trying to change our religion to make it fit modern customs. The apostate is killed and that is what our religion tells us. And their is a huge wiseness in this action. This was preformed by the Prophet (PBUH), his companions, and the ta'be'een.

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2016, 11:39:55 PM »
But did Abdullah ibn Sa'd ibn Abu Sarh convert back to Islam?

Offline Mohamed Saif

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2016, 12:49:57 AM »
But the Quran directly said that who ever changes his religion to leave him alone. There is no punishment prescribed in the Quran.

Offline Saudi Salafi

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2016, 01:40:45 AM »
But did Abdullah ibn Sa'd ibn Abu Sarh convert back to Islam?

 Yes, he did. https://islamqa.info/en/168773

But the Quran directly said that who ever changes his religion to leave him alone. There is no punishment prescribed in the Quran.

 The Quran never said to leave them alone. Where did you get this from? The verses that you brought have nothing to do with the issue. They have to do with the kuffar. The punishment for adultery isn't found in the Quran. So does that mean that we shouldn't punish the adulterer? I remember Umar ibn Al-Khattab  (may Allah be pleased with him) said that he was afraid that people will stop the punishment of stoning because it is not found in the Quran. He also said that in the end of the times there will be people who will claim to follow the Quran but reject the Sunnah. And you are an example of that  (no offense). Thanks for strengthening my faith brother.

"That is because they believed, and then they disbelieved; so their hearts were sealed over, and they do not understand." 63:3


https://islamqa.info/en/20327

This is the religion of Allah. Stop trying to change it.

Offline Mohamed Saif

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2016, 02:17:31 AM »
Dear brother
Thank you for your response. And as for your response saying that I'm trying to change God's religion. I wasn't trying to change it. It was only a doubt which I had.
Thank you

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2016, 02:56:45 AM »
The narration and your link appear to say that Abdullah ibn Sa'd ibn Abu Sarh was first granted protection on the request of ‘Uthmaan ibn ‘Affaan and then later he came back to Islam.

This is the likely case because otherwise, it would mean that an apostate requires the permission of Prophet Muhammad (or the leader of the Ummah) to come back to Islam, which goes against core Islamic doctrine. How could the Prophet refuse to accept "his allegiance"? If by "allegiance" means "coming to Islam" how could it be refused? Why was it refused twice?

Additionally, we have that case when in the heat of battle a disbeliever came under the power of a Muslim, the disbeliever converted to Islam, but the Muslim still killed him thinking it was just a ploy to save his life. The Prophet rejected this killing and probably because of this event we have the ruling that even if a disbeliever converts to Islam just to save his life, it creates the possibility for his forgiveness.

So how could that same Prophet be so hesitant to accept ibn Sa'd ibn Abu Sarh "allegiance"? And even after accepting, "Then turning to his companions, he said: Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?"? Would the Prophet have such feelings for a Muslim?

Furthermore, the main issue I raised was: "... what is the evidence from Qur'an or Hadith which mention that a person who was born in a Muslim family and did not convert to Islam, [even] when such a person adopts a religion different to Islam he should also be killed."?

You have to show unequivocally that the capital punishment is a part of God's timeless divine law and not among the ones which were dependent on a particular time or ruler.