Author Topic: Apostasy  (Read 14373 times)

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Offline Awesome31310

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2016, 08:07:32 AM »
Dear brother
Thank you for your response. And as for your response saying that I'm trying to change God's religion. I wasn't trying to change it. It was only a doubt which I had.
Thank you

It's a tactic most religious people use when they're nervous and grounded in an online debate. "You're blaspheming the Lord!"

Offline iknowi

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2016, 08:11:20 AM »
But did Abdullah ibn Sa'd ibn Abu Sarh convert back to Islam?

 Yes, he did. https://islamqa.info/en/168773

But the Quran directly said that who ever changes his religion to leave him alone. There is no punishment prescribed in the Quran.

 The Quran never said to leave them alone. Where did you get this from? The verses that you brought have nothing to do with the issue. They have to do with the kuffar. The punishment for adultery isn't found in the Quran. So does that mean that we shouldn't punish the adulterer? I remember Umar ibn Al-Khattab  (may Allah be pleased with him) said that he was afraid that people will stop the punishment of stoning because it is not found in the Quran. He also said that in the end of the times there will be people who will claim to follow the Quran but reject the Sunnah. And you are an example of that  (no offense). Thanks for strengthening my faith brother.

"That is because they believed, and then they disbelieved; so their hearts were sealed over, and they do not understand." 63:3


https://islamqa.info/en/20327

This is the religion of Allah. Stop trying to change it.

Asalamu alaykum,

We reject hadith when it contradicts the quran. The quran promotes freedom of religion.

And about adultery... it doesnt matter if Umar said that he was afraid that people would adandon the stoning of the adulterer, this is one dimentional thinking. Remember, Umar is a fallible human being who can make mistakes, and even if it was true that he said that, we cannot verify it for certainty because the hadith are the sayings of the sayings of the sayings of what the sahaba said.

And please do not be passive aggresive, "thank you for increasing my faith in islam"... it is one of the worse feminine personality traits.

May Allah protect you from polytheism, one of the greatest sins, the raising of the sayings of men as divine revelation i.e. granting common men godhood:

"Shall I seek other than Allah for judge, when He it is Who hath revealed unto you (this) Scripture, fully explained? Those unto whom We gave the Scripture (aforetime) know that it is revealed from thy Lord in truth. So be not thou (O Muhammad) of the waverers." [6:114]

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2016, 09:46:37 AM »
Although, there have been made some criticisms on them, I personally do not absolutely deny the Hadiths. The issue I have is with their interpretation, like why is it supposed to be a part of the everlasting Shariah, or applied unconditionally on everyone, and above all the derivation of the ruling that: a person who didn't convert to Islam but was born in a Muslim family, when such a person adopts a religion other than Islam he should also be killed.

Offline iknowi

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2016, 10:28:39 AM »
Although, there have been made some criticisms on them, I personally do not absolutely deny the Hadiths. The issue I have is with their interpretation, like why is it supposed to be a part of the everlasting Shariah, or applied unconditionally on everyone, and above all the derivation of the ruling that: a person who didn't convert to Islam but was born in a Muslim family, when such a person adopts a religion other than Islam he should also be killed.

Asalamu alaykum,

Im assuming this is directed at me? Or in general.

Anyway, i do not reject all the hadith, but i certainly reject the hadith that stipulate laws that are not inside Allahs speech (the quran), this is what every follower of Allah's religion should do.

In the hadith (in accordance with al-Quran) there are many spiritual benefits for Muslims, this can only be a good thing.

Offline Awesome31310

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2016, 11:10:16 AM »
it doesnt matter if Umar said that he was afraid that people would adandon the stoning of the adulterer, this is one dimentional thinking. Remember, Umar is a fallible human being who can make mistakes, and even if it was true that he said that, we cannot verify it for certainty because the hadith are the sayings of the sayings of the sayings of what the sahaba said.

Wisdom.

Anyway, i do not reject all the hadith, but i certainly reject the hadith that stipulate laws that are not inside Allahs speech (the quran), this is what every follower of Allah's religion should do.

That's called cherry picking.

Offline submit

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2016, 11:50:18 AM »
One should bear in mind apostasy in hadiths are referring to period of time where a believer turns into disbelievers due to hardship that a believer needs to undergo during that time.

As a believer during the period where they need to purify Arabia, they need to undergo warfare. This is one of the reason that will cause those who had believe to turn into disbelief even after witnessing signs/miracles from Creator.
Other hardship reasons that may cause apostasy; abandoning wealth becomes poor, abandon family etc.

Nothing to do about born in Muslim family and later apostate due to foreign lifestyle. It is up to the ruler to whether apply killing punishment as Quran also do not abrogate the Israelite Law of punishing an apostate in end of days.


Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2016, 12:03:42 PM »
Not exactly cherry picking. The Hadith also includes laws that conform to modern morality too. If I remember correctly, for example, non-Muslim women, children, old men and physiologically impaired persons are exempt from paying the Jizya. If a Muslim rejects all the laws which he doesn't like and accepts the ones he does, without any common objective criteria to judge among the two, then that Muslim is likely committing the cherry picking fallacy.

That "common objective criteria" for Muslims having non-conservative interpretations happen to be usually either historical criticism of the Hadiths involved or the lack of evidence for the idea that a particular law defined in some particular Hadiths has the status of being a part of God's everlasting divine law and not some temporary law, according to the needs of the age. In the latter case, it is upon the Muslim generations to decide whether they want to continue with that law or not. Discontinuing with such laws would not incur sin on the Muslims.

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2016, 01:02:08 PM »
Osama Abdullah is unfortunately trying to liberalize Islam, and it is not working out well for him. The general consensus established amongst the Muslim communities of the world is that apostates should be put to death, by stoning. Iran follows this, so does Saudi Arabia.

I am not trying to liberalize Islam.  I am very conservative myself.  I am only going by what Islam says.  Anyway, the brothers have done beautiful jobs explaining the point well.  May Allah Almighty bless them.  Ameen.  No need for me to be redundant here.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline TruthExposer777

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2016, 04:18:32 PM »
Meaning of Osama Abdallah = Lion Slave/Servant of Allah ;)

Offline Awesome31310

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2016, 06:32:16 PM »
Meaning of Osama Abdallah = Lion Slave/Servant of Allah ;)

Now you know why they built the sphinx

Offline TruthExposer777

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2016, 09:41:05 PM »
Meaning of Osama Abdallah = Lion Slave/Servant of Allah ;)

Now you know why they built the sphinx


LoL

Offline Saudi Salafi

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2016, 11:32:54 PM »
 Assalamu alaikum,

@iKnowi
 I see no contradicton between the hadith and the Quran. The verses that you mentioned only applies to the people who have a treaty with the Muslims (either by paying the Jizyah or by having a peace treaty with the Muslims) and the apostate CANNOT be a Mu'ahid. I honestly didn't expect you people to go as far as to say that the adulterer shouldn't be stoned! The prophecy is being fulfilled! The prophet (PBUH) stoned the adulterer and ALL scholars agree on that. The hadiths are from Umar (RA) and they are authentic. There is no doubt on that. Are you gonna reject what the second best man (after the prophets peace be upon them) on Earth said because of your personal emotions? The adulterer gets stoned in most religions. STOP trying to change our faith because of your emotions! What Umar (RA) said matters a LOT. So according to you, almost ALL the scholars are wrong and YOU are right!? What is so feminine about what I did? Are you kidding me? I'm sorry if I sound offensive, but I am afraid that what is happening to the Christians will happen to us. We will try to reform our religion and change because of our modern values and then we will be split into many sects. This is the religion of Allah, it is NOT a toy.

Dear brother
Thank you for your response. And as for your response saying that I'm trying to change God's religion. I wasn't trying to change it. It was only a doubt which I had.
Thank you

It's a tactic most religious people use when they're nervous and grounded in an online debate. "You're blaspheming the Lord!"

@Awesome31310

 Yup. And when the Christians stopped doing that look at what happened. Adultery is ok and permissible, a man having sex with an other man is OK, Gays get baptized and married in churches, drinking and getting drunk is now something that most Christians do even though Paul forbid it,  and way more! And the funny thing is, Christianity is a LAWLESS religion! Also, how am I nervous in a debate?


@Ahmad Farooq

" the main issue I raised was: "... what is the evidence from Qur'an or Hadith which mention that a person who was born in a Muslim family and did not convert to Islam, [even] when such a person adopts a religion different to Islam he should also be killed."?"

This hadith:

Abu al-Nu‘man Muhammad ibn al-Fadl related to us: Hammad ibn Zayd related to us from Ayyub from ‘‘Ikrimah who said: “Some Zanadiqah were brought to ‘Ali and he burnt them. This reached Ibn ‘Abbas and he said: I would not have burnt them because of the prohibition by the Messenger of God: ‘Do not punish with the punishment of God.’ I would have killed them in accordance with the word of the Messenger of God: ‘Whoever changed his religion kill him’.” (Bukhari 9/57=6411)

So this hadith tells us to kill apostates.

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2016, 11:53:00 PM »
Critics do give some arguments against the reliability of Ikrimah and this narration (like how Ali was unaware of a Prophet's command and Ikrimah was), but in any case, as far as this narration (and the one similar to it in Jami` at-Tirmidhi) is concerned, there is no indication that these people were born in Muslim families and had not converted to Islam.

Offline Awesome31310

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2016, 04:13:12 AM »
Yup. And when the Christians stopped doing that look at what happened. Adultery is ok and permissible, a man having sex with an other man is OK, Gays get baptized and married in churches, drinking and getting drunk is now something that most Christians do even though Paul forbid it,  and way more! And the funny thing is, Christianity is a LAWLESS religion! Also, how am I nervous in a debate?

Slippery slope fallacy.

Offline iknowi

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2016, 01:58:26 PM »
Assalamu alaikum,

@iKnowi
 I see no contradicton between the hadith and the Quran. The verses that you mentioned only applies to the people who have a treaty with the Muslims (either by paying the Jizyah or by having a peace treaty with the Muslims) and the apostate CANNOT be a Mu'ahid. I honestly didn't expect you people to go as far as to say that the adulterer shouldn't be stoned! The prophecy is being fulfilled! The prophet (PBUH) stoned the adulterer and ALL scholars agree on that. The hadiths are from Umar (RA) and they are authentic. There is no doubt on that. Are you gonna reject what the second best man (after the prophets peace be upon them) on Earth said because of your personal emotions? The adulterer gets stoned in most religions. STOP trying to change our faith because of your emotions! What Umar (RA) said matters a LOT. So according to you, almost ALL the scholars are wrong and YOU are right!? What is so feminine about what I did? Are you kidding me? I'm sorry if I sound offensive, but I am afraid that what is happening to the Christians will happen to us. We will try to reform our religion and change because of our modern values and then we will be split into many sects. This is the religion of Allah, it is NOT a toy.

Asalamu alaykum,

Please read the following article: http://islamic-myths.com/2008/01/23/stoning-to-dead-is-against-islam/

The quran is very detailed, this can be seen by hijab rulings, inheretence percentages etc. If Allah wanted the stoning of the adulterer he would mention it in his book, surely. It is such a severe punishment and determines ones qadr... how do you know that this adulterer might not grow up to be an ardent defender/scholar of islam?

And i also encourage you to adopt a more solipsist mindset: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemological_solipsism

And you said "thank you for strenghening my faith in islam", this is textbook passive aggresiveness and i consider it one of the worse personality traits. Sorry if you didnt mean it that way but i dont know how else to interpret that line other than passive aggresiveness.

Finally, modern day scholarship trumps older scholarship, we are in a new computer age, we have connectedness that we never had before, it is a truly unique point in human history. Now we can commincate with eachother more easily and help eachother in deciphering this perfectly preserved text, examples include the reinterpretation of the wife beating verse 4:34 of which the translators have actually CHANGED their translation in light of modern day scholarship... And MANY others (most of which are scientific).

And if you say that Mohammed pbuh said that no one understood the Quran after me better than my sahaba (Umar, Uthman etc), what he really meant was at that specific time period, not now; did the sahaba have access to the number 19 miracle? Nope. Did they understand the verses on evolution? Nope. And so on.

May Allahs peace and blessing be on you, i do not want to attack you, only inform you. I want to end here because ive had these sorts of discussions before but they end up going nowhere, people will believe what they want to believe (most of the time, anyway).

Salaams.