Barrier between salt and fresh water

[Omar Ahmed]

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh .

Sorry brothers i'm new here so forgive me if i make any mistakes, First of all eid mubarak to everyone now to come to my point, unfortunately, i came across a topic on wikiislam about the barrier between salt and fresh water, i'm sure there's a refutation to it but i couldn't find it here. Am i allowed to post the link of the website?

[Ramihs97]

This shall help you brother.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgkiYvB3uJY

Read the description of the video which says  ( There is a barrier between them. They encroach not (one upon the other)."(55:19-20, Ar-Rehman).

"And He it is Who hath given independence to the two seas (though they meet); one palatable, sweet, and the other saltish, bitter; and hath set a bar and a forbidding ban between them." (25:53, Al-Furqan).

The above verses are on the meeting point of the river water and sea water known as estuary or delta. As we know, all rivers flow into the sea. River water is sweet, that is, drinkable or potable. Salty sea water is undrinkable and bitter. Yet, by the Grace of Allah, the two different kinds of water never get mixed to contaminate the drinkable river water.

At the point of the estuary, there are few small areas where the river water flowing into the sea might taste a little brackish but it's one of the wonders of Allah that this brackish water stays at the estuary and does not flow back into the river to get mixed up with the sweet drinkable water.

Islamophobes and atheists, to show their opposition have argued trying to refute the scientific truth of Verse 25:53. But their own Western oceanographers, marine biologists and geologists have given exactly the same explanation as in Verse 25:53, pointing out the possible reason why the salt water does not contaminate the river water.

Northland Regional Council in its chapter "Estuaries" for schools writes: "Where fresh and salt water mix - The mixing of fresh water and sea water is an important and distinct feature of the estuary. Fresh water, being lighter or less dense than salt water, will flow above the heavier sea water. In estuaries where large amounts of freshwater are discharged, a salt wedge is formed. This is a wedge-shaped, bottom layer of sea water, which is pushed up the estuary along the river bottom with each incoming high tide. The separation between fresh water and salt water can break down on an outgoing low tide when the waters swirl around more. Such conditions of mixing will create zones of brackish, or diluted sea water, a common physical feature of estuaries."

But on the side of the river where the water is hugely important for being drinkable, never gets contaminated nor does it have any brackish or salty zones. That is confirmed as in Verse 25:53.)

[Ramihs97]

And the terminology is called "Unseen barrier". Nothing hard to know. This is one of my favourite refutations as even Richard Dawkins got proved wrong by it (he claimed no such barrier exists).

[Omar Ahmed]

Thank you for your help brother, btw here is the link for the site i'm talking about https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran

[QuranSearchCom]

As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers,

Eid Mubarak again to you and to your families.  May it bring peace, mercy and blessings from Allah Almighty to you and to your families.  Ameen.  And welcome to the board brother Omar.  May Allah Almighty continue to strengthen your faith in Islam.  Ameen.

In regards to the topic, the STUNNING Scientific Miracle in the Glorious Quran is thoroughly demonstrated here:

www.answering-christianity.com/separation_of_salty_seas_waters_miracle.htm



The Halocline Phenomenon:

The halocline phenomenon is mentioned in Glorious Quran and confirmed by science:



Also in the same video, I have added a clip that refutes Richard Dawkins salt and fresh water in a glass of water challenge.  Notice how the egg in the fresh water sank, while the egg in the salt water floated, and while the egg in the mixed water stayed in the middle.  This is because it floated on the salt water and sank under the fresh water in the same glass:



Feel free to post any issue or concern or doubt.  We're here to thoroughly refute all of the lies from the anti-Islamics.  Please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/separation_of_salty_seas_waters_miracle.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[Omar Ahmed]

Thank you brothers, this really helped me. Now i'm not sure what these people on wikiislam are trying to call an "error".

[Saudi Salafi]

Thank you brothers, this really helped me. Now i'm not sure what these people on wikiislam are trying to call an "error".

 You should read the whole anti-Islamic article. There are two main interpretations of this verse:

"With regard to the barrier between the two seas that is mentioned in these verses, there are two scholarly views concerning it:

-1-

That what is meant by the barrier between the two seas (i.e., between rivers and seas) is the vast lands that separate the rivers from the seas, so that there is no mixing of their waters; rather each of them has its own course and destination that is separate from that of the other.

This is the literalist interpretation that we find with many of the commentators.

Al-Haafiz Ibn Katheer (may Allah have mercy on him) said: “and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them” [al-Furqaan 25:53] means: between the sweet water and the salty water

“a barrier”, i.e., the dry land

“a complete partition” i.e., an obstacle that prevents one of them reaching the other.

End quote from Tafseer al-Qur’aan al-Azeem, 6/117 "

 They claim on the site itself (Wikiislam) that this interpretation does NOT contradict with science and that it is correct.  And the brothers over here demonstrated that the second interpretation is right. 

[Omar Ahmed]

I understand, neither does the first interpretation contradict with science as brother Osama explained

[QuranSearchCom]

"With regard to the barrier between the two seas that is mentioned in these verses, there are two scholarly views concerning it:

-1-

That what is meant by the barrier between the two seas (i.e., between rivers and seas) is the vast lands that separate the rivers from the seas, so that there is no mixing of their waters; rather each of them has its own course and destination that is separate from that of the other.

This is the literalist interpretation that we find with many of the commentators.

First of all, "land" is not mentioned anywhere in Noble Verses  55:19-22  and 25:53.  So it can not be a literalist interpretation.

Also, ‏55:19 مرج البحرين يلتقيان MARAJA AL-BAHRAYN YALTAQIYAAN (merged the two bodies of waters) does not imply that there is land between them.  The Noble Verses are clear about actual bodies of water look like they're one when they're not, because there are barriers (BARZAKH) between them:  55:20 بينهما برزخ لايبغيان  .

The Noble Verses in 55:19-22  and 25:53 speak about:

1-  Salty bodies of water merging together.

‏55:19 مرج البحرين يلتقيان
‏55:20 بينهما برزخ لايبغيان

‏55:21 فباي الاء ربكما تكذبان
‏55:22 يخرج منهما اللؤلؤ والمرجان

[055:019]  He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together:
[055:020]  Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress:
[055:021]  Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
[055:022]  Out of them come Pearls and Coral:

Right from Noble Verse 55:22 we know that the Noble Verses are referring to salty seas and oceans, because pearls and corals could only be found there.  The Noble Verse says: "Out of them come (يخرج منهما) Pearls and Coral".


2-  Salty and fresh bodies of water merging together.

‏25:53 وهو الذي مرج البحرين هذا عذب فرات وهذا ملح اجاج وجعل بينهما برزخا وحجرا محجورا

[025:053]  It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.

We all know rivers pour into salty seas.  No lands separate them.  And the BIGGER MIRACLE is in the Barriers that are between the salty waters that science has just recently just confirmed in our age.  Also, notice يلتقيان (meet) in 55:19.  How can they meet if there is land separating them?

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[AhmadFarooq]

Regardless of what Abdullah Almadi's general beliefs are regarding the matter of "scientific notions", in this particular case, if I am not very much mistaken, he only informed of a different interpretation on the matter by quoting the opinion of Ibn Katheer.

As far as I can tell, there was no denying of the original interpretation that is under discussion here. In-fact, by Abdullah Almadi's last sentence: "And the brothers over here demonstrated that the second interpretation is right.", I would infer that he was referring to the original interpretation as the "second interpretation" and claiming it to be correct too.

[QuranSearchCom]

As'salamu Alaikum,

I have added a detailed rebuttal with more points to the article are:

www.answering-christianity.com/separation_of_salty_seas_waters_miracle.htm#barrier_not_land
www.answering-christianity.com/separation_of_salty_seas_waters_miracle.htm

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[QuranSearchCom]

As'salamu Alaikum,

I would like to apologize to brother Abdullah Almadi for being harsh and rude with him.  He was within his rights to post his view or opinion on whether the Noble Verses were literal or not.  I had no right to insult him.  I have modified my post above and kept it only to the answer to brother Abdullah's post.

I am very sorry brother Abdullah for losing myself.  It won't happen again.  Please feel free to post what's in your mind freely.  I will not respond with insults to you ever again.

I hope you accept my apology.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[Saudi Salafi]

"With regard to the barrier between the two seas that is mentioned in these verses, there are two scholarly views concerning it:

-1-

That what is meant by the barrier between the two seas (i.e., between rivers and seas) is the vast lands that separate the rivers from the seas, so that there is no mixing of their waters; rather each of them has its own course and destination that is separate from that of the other.

This is the literalist interpretation that we find with many of the commentators.

First of all, "land" is not mentioned anywhere in Noble Verses  55:19-22  and 25:53.  So it can not be a literalist interpretation.

Also, ‏55:19 مرج البحرين يلتقيان MARAJA AL-BAHRAYN YALTAQIYAAN (merged the two bodies of waters) does not imply that there is land between them.  The Noble Verses are clear about actual bodies of water look like they're one when they're not, because there are barriers (BARZAKH) between them:  55:20 بينهما برزخ لايبغيان  .

The Noble Verses in 55:19-22  and 25:53 speak about:

1-  Salty bodies of water merging together.

‏55:19 مرج البحرين يلتقيان
‏55:20 بينهما برزخ لايبغيان

‏55:21 فباي الاء ربكما تكذبان
‏55:22 يخرج منهما اللؤلؤ والمرجان

[055:019]  He has let free the two bodies of flowing water, meeting together:
[055:020]  Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress:
[055:021]  Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
[055:022]  Out of them come Pearls and Coral:

Right from Noble Verse 55:22 we know that the Noble Verses are referring to salty seas and oceans, because pearls and corals could only be found there.  The Noble Verse says: "Out of them come (يخرج منهما) Pearls and Coral".


2-  Salty and fresh bodies of water merging together.

‏25:53 وهو الذي مرج البحرين هذا عذب فرات وهذا ملح اجاج وجعل بينهما برزخا وحجرا محجورا

[025:053]  It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.

We all know rivers pour into salty seas.  No lands separate them.  And the BIGGER MIRACLE is in the Barriers that are between the salty waters that science has just recently just confirmed in our age.  Also, notice يلتقيان (meet) in 55:19.  How can they meet if there is land separating them?

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

 I don't like to post Anti-Islamic things however this one isn't necessarily "anti-Islamic" and it only shows the correct meaning of the verse:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAK6fQQALE4

 As for your claim that a "land" isn't mentioned in the verse, then the same thing can be said about the density between the waters. The "barrier" can be easily a land. Again, go to the video above. Second, yes, land can seperated salty and un-salty water.

[QuranSearchCom]

The website is as ridiculous as the interpretation that you provided from Ibn Kathir (SWT).  I am sarcastically using SWT here because as I said before, Salafies have this issue of attaching names to claims.  So if Ibn Kathir said it, then it is 100% true.  If Osama Abdallah said it (not that my name is great, or I am great), then it is 100% false.

Ibn Kathir isn't Allah Almighty.  He made mistakes.  And you yourself just conceded that his interpretation is not literal.  Of course, you tried to play games by saying that density doesn't exist in the Glorious Quran.  But density is a modern-day scientific term that didn't exist back then.  But it was nonetheless, addressed in the Glorious Quran. 



Density in Oceans in the Glorious Quran:

If you bothered to read my article, you would've seen the Glorious Quran's Miracle on the layers of the depth of seas:

www.answering-christianity.com/darkness_of_oceans.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/reason_9.wmv
www.answering-christianity.com/oceanography_and_layers_of_waves_and_darkness.mp3
www.answering-christianity.com/separation_of_salty_seas_waters_miracle.htm

There the concept of density in oceans is covered in the Glorious Quran.  But of course you wouldn't read nor be willing to learn, becasue the SWTs in Saudi Arabia have sealed your brain for you.  They did all of the thinkings for you.  All you have to do is do nothing.

You have dismally failed to refute any of the details that I responded to you about above.  And your link gives hogwash nonsense without language details and analysis.  If there is any point that I have not addressed in your video, then please do share it here.  I openly challenge you and challenge ALL MUSLIMS HERE to take me on.  It seems that the issue of the Scientific and Numerical Miracles in the Glorious Quran needs to be settled with some Muslims before infidels.  Insha'Allah, I will be able to amply and thoroughly prove to you that you are wrong, and that your Holy Book is indeed a Divine Miracle.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[QuranSearchCom]

Also, did you bother to read the Muslim commentaries in in the video that you linked?  Muslims have exposed this guy's silly arguments and twisting of meanings.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[Saudi Salafi]

 I NEVER said that Ibn Kathir or any scholar is infallible or never makes mistakes. I dare YOU to show that! The reason to why I trust I need Ibn Kathir more than you is because one is very knowledgeable, wise, and doesn't interpret religion falsely based on his modern beliefs (for example: your attempts at proving that apostasy isn't punishable). An example of how you interpret the Quran falsely is the Dahaha verse. No one is denying that dahaha means egg, however it is Arabic grammar proves that the verse cannot mean that the Earth is round. If it did, then it would've said (كالادحي) I already gave you many links before refuting your statments from Muslims themselves! STOP changing the word of Allah. Don't worry, I will make an article on this website called "Top 20 Scientific Miracles Debunked". Unless yout lied about your promise and decide to ban me. NONE of the scholars over here in Saudi Arabia say that they are infallible or that all they say is true. No one said such things. I dare you to give me ONE proof of a scholar saying that.  YOU failed to refute ANY of the arguments that I gave! Then show me were the Muslims "exposed" that guys videos. Most of the stuff that he said is true. Refute it or just don't speak.

[QuranSearchCom]

My articles are mostly based on works of big scholars that wrote their materials and did their research before you.  While I do have original work and findings of my own, but most of my work had been done by others.  And I give credit where it is due.

As to apostates, this is outside the topic of the Scientific and Numerical Miracles discussion here.  And the brothers here have thoroughly refuted you on this point.  The reader can also visit:  www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm.

As to Dahaha, I can't believe you man.  LOL.  Didn't you get thoroughly refuted here so bad that you ran away from the discussion:

www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2137.msg9273.html#msg9273

Care to respond to the ample points and definitions that thoroughly refuted you?


You further said:

YOU failed to refute ANY of the arguments that I gave! Then show me were the Muslims "exposed" that guys videos. Most of the stuff that he said is true. Refute it or just don't speak.

You know it's funny that in the link that I just gave, you responded to my post by admitting that the Glorious Quran does indeed have Scientific Miracles in it.


I made you say:

"First, I NEVER said that the Quran has no scientific miracres!"

So after I thoroughly refuted you and embarrased you, I made you say that the Glorious Quran does indeed have Scientific Miracles in It.  And now you're challenging me to refute that infidel doofus of yours, which I again say:

1-  His video is garbage, because he didn't give analysis on the Noble Words.
2-  He himself even uses words such as "probable" in his arguments.

So the doofus is not even refuting the Glorious Quran with certainty.  He is using empty assertions and bias.  And again, please bring me one point from his video that my article doesn't thoroughly destroy.

I am waiting....

Let's see if the infidel's arguments will stand against the Glorious Quran.  Any monkey can produce any video.  Let's see if you can give one argument from his video that my article does not destroy.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[Saudi Salafi]

My articles are mostly based on works of big scholars that wrote their materials and did their research before you.  While I do have original work and findings of my own, but most of my work had been done by others.  And I give credit where it is due.

As to apostates, this is outside the topic of the Scientific and Numerical Miracles discussion here.  And the brothers here have thoroughly refuted you on this point.  The reader can also visit:  www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm.

As to Dahaha, I can't believe you man.  LOL.  Didn't you get thoroughly refuted here so bad that you ran away from the discussion:

www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2137.msg9273.html#msg9273

Care to respond to the ample points and definitions that thoroughly refuted you?

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Regarding Apostasy:

 I had already dealt with that in an other article. I gave hadiths which refute your points and some of the other brothers' points. The only one over here who was really able to debate this issue with me properly was Ahmad Farooq. But his points were weak. He claims that some scholar has said that the apostate shouldn't be punished, but he didn't provide any reference for that and even if that scholar did do that that still wouldn't matter since all scholars make mistakes and his view is wrong according to almost all of the scholars. He also said that their is no evidence that the one who was born a Muslim and leaves Islam shold the be killed however that is wrong since the hadiths regarding apostasy are general to everyone who leaves Islam.

The Dahaha issue:

 No translation besides that of Rashad Khalifa, who is a false prophet, translated the word to mean "made it round" or something like that. You further criticize the website IslamQA and call it a Salafi link but the funny thing is that you used material from their website in your own website!!!!!!! LOL! Check this link:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/hadiths_of_the_fly.htm

Your so called "evidence" for the Dahaha verse has been dealt with over here by an Arabic professional Muslim brother:

https://youtu.be/5D4ChAnqkxU

[Saudi Salafi]

 I had also dealt with your claims against the "Salafi" link in an other section. When people say that the Earth is egg shaped they don't mean that it is egg shaped literally. Everyone nowadays says that the Earth is "egg-shaped" but do they mean that it is literally "egg-shaped"? No!

[QuranSearchCom]

Once again, if you bothered to read my material, you would've found that I hardly relied on the EGG-SHAPED definition.  Instead, I thoroughly demonstrated that DAHA means:

1-  To push.

2-  To throw.

دحا   (daha):  دفعه و رمى به (dafa'aahu wa ramaa bih) Caused it to move, pushed it, or threw it.

دحا الصبي المِدحاةَََ أي دفع الصبي المِدحاةَََ   Daha the boy the rolling toy, means the boy pushed the rolling toy.


3-  To make something roll, as in DAHA the barrel from the top of the hill, which means he rolled it down from the top of the hill.  Also, this is where the Arabic word DAHRAJA is derived from, which means to make something roll down.

4-  To make something round.  I used several examples for ROUND AND BULGED TUMMY, and making round objects.  I even used a Hadith from Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, when he said:

In Prophet Muhammad's Hadith: كان لأسامة بطننٌ مُندحٌ اي متسع   Osama had a round and big tummy.

Also the dictionary says:
الدحداح هو المستدير الململم    The dahdaah is the person who is ROUND and STOCKY.

و بطنٌ مُنداحُ أي خارخٌ مُدوّر  His tummy is mun-daahun means it is OUT THERE AND ROUND مُدوّر.



So when Allah Almighty DAHA THE EARTH, it means that Allah Almighty EXPANDED IT SPHERICALLY through rotating it around itself and moving it in its orbit in space.  And this is why Allah Almighty Said after that (after He DAHAHA), He brought forth from it its water and pasture.  Science has proven this to be 100% accurate and True:


1-  Water was brought forth from the earth - Science confirmed it and the Holy Quran claimed it 1400 years ago:




2-  Our earth expanded and produced its own water:



And






As to the Youtube video that you gave, the guy talks from his rear end, without proofs, and uses the same KAL-ADHA argument that you copy and pasted from him, which I throughly destroyed for you and made you run away.  The reader can see my thorough refutation to you and him at:

www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2137.msg9273.html#msg9273

KAL-ADHA or KAL-UDHI كالادحي is the word that should've been used??  You people are really something!



Didn't the Almighty PROMISE to Reveal the Scientific Miracles from the Glorious Quran in the Universe and inside ourselves until it will become clear to us that the Quran is the Truth from Him?

www.answering-christianity.com/sci_prophecy.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

I feel sorry for you.



But Prophet Muhammad didn't interpret them like this:

I get this lame argument a lot.  But Prophet Muhammad himself admitted, and Allah Almighty thoroughly confirmed that the Prophet couldn't interpret much of the Glorious Quran:

www.answering-christianity.com/prophet_muhammad_did_not_know_everything_about_quran.htm

So this lame argument that if it's not in the Hadiths (sayings) of the Prophet, then we don't accept it fails.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[QuranSearchCom]

What happened?  Did you finally realize the Scientific Miracle in the Glorious Quran, or did you get silenced again?  Your cult's nonsense is fantastic.  Are you too arrogant and stubborn to accept the Signs of Allah Almighty?  Or did your zionist SWTs in Saudi Arabia order you continue to dumb down Islam?

Please update us...

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[Saudi Salafi]

What happened?  Did you finally realize the Scientific Miracle in the Glorious Quran, or did you get silenced again?  Your cult's nonsense is fantastic.  Are you too arrogant and stubborn to accept the Signs of Allah Almighty?  Or did your zionist SWTs in Saudi Arabia order you continue to dumb down Islam?

Please update us...

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

 Don't worry. I will make an other thread soon debinking your "scientific miracles" tommorow. I have to deal with a bunch of Christians today.

[QuranSearchCom]

This is not the first time you run like that.  You did exactly this before and never came back to the topic.

Osama