Author Topic: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.  (Read 12472 times)

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Offline QuranSearchCom

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As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers and sisters in Islam,

Here is a conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.  Insha'Allah, you'll find it very helpful in refuting the crucifion lie very quickly to anyone:

www.answering-christianity.com/conversation_i_had_on_crucifixion_lie.htm

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline fadi

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2016, 09:53:24 pm »
Wa alaik as’salam akhi Osama,

I read your article. May Allah reward you for your efforts. I have noticed that you said “because Jesus was a spirit; Spirit not a flesh and blood like you and me.” Then the new Muslim said “but Allah says he ate food”. You replied “but he was not a normal flesh and blood”.

But Allah said that Jesus is alike Adam. And Adam is a normal human like me and you. Thus Jesus is a normal human like me and you but he is a Prophet. 
(3:59) Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.

Can you please explain this to me.

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2016, 12:29:29 am »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Fadi,

Aside from the fact that Prophet Isa, peace be upon him, was created from the Word and filled with the Holy Spirit, but he was also given the power to feel no pain.  As I explained in the conversation, you could drive a sword right threw his gut and out his back, and he still wouldn't feel pain.  Let alone die.  Even if you were to maim him, Allah Almighty would've placed him back together as He did with the birds that Abraham cut into pieces and scattered them in different places:

[002:260] And (remember) when Ibrahim (Abraham) said, "My Lord! Show me how You give life to the dead." He (Allah) said: "Do you not believe?" He (Ibrahim (Abraham)) said: "Yes (I believe), but to be stronger in Faith." He said: "Take four birds, then cause them to incline towards you (then slaughter them, cut them into pieces), and then put a portion of them on every hill, and call them, they will come to you in haste. And know that Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise."


This is what I believe what "THEY NEITHER KILLED HIM NOR CRUCIFIED HIM, but it appeared as such to them" means.  Allah Almighty's Statement is crystal clear about Isa, peace be upon him, appeared to have been killed through crucifixion.  But yet, the Prophet didn't feel a thing.

This is not the first time a Miracle like this happened.  Abraham, peace be upon him, was thrown into the fire by his people, and Allah Almighty Commanded the fire to be cool and peaceful to him:

[021:069] We (Allah) said: "O fire! Be you coolness and safety for Ibrahim (Abraham)!"

Here, again, the fire APPEARED that it was burning Abraham, peace be upon him, when it was not at all.  I believe the Jesus (Isa) situation is the same thing.  He was being killed, but he was never killed nor ever experienced pain.  A similar thing also happened with Jonah (Yunus), peace be upon him, which Jesus also gave his parable, and said that his situation is similar to Jonah in the Bible.  Here is what the Holy Quran Says about Jonah's Miracle with the whale:

[037:139] And, verily, Yoonus (Jonah) was one of the Messengers.
[037:140] When he ran to the laden ship,
[037:141] He (agreed to) cast lots, and he was among the losers,
[037:142] Then a (big) fish swallowed him and he had done an act worthy of blame.
[037:143] Had he not been of them who glorify Allah,
[037:144] He would have indeed remained inside its belly (the fish) till the Day of Resurrection.
[037:145] But We cast him forth on the naked shore while he was sick,
[037:146] And We caused a plant of gourd to grow over him.
[037:147] And We sent him to a hundred thousand (people) or even more.
[037:148] And they believed; so We gave them enjoyment for a while.


Jonah too was saved from death.  Otherwise, the whale's stomach's acids would've painfully dissolved him alive!  But like Jesus and Abraham, it was relatively almost painless to him, because this was one of his Miracles.

Putting it all of this together, we have very strong proofs that it was indeed Isa, peace be upon him, who was placed on the cross, and like Abraham and Jonah and others, it was painless and harmless to him.

And Allah Almighty ALWAYS knows best.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline Omar Ahmed

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2016, 02:48:36 am »
But Allah swt said that isa pbuh was not crucified at all...it wasn't isa pbuh on the cross.

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2016, 02:55:45 am »
What i was taught is that judas was made to look like isa pbuh and he was crucified instead.
Isa pbuh was not even put on the cross.

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2016, 07:53:34 am »
What i was taught is that judas was made to look like isa pbuh and he was crucified instead.
Isa pbuh was not even put on the cross.

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,

You were taught conjecture on the Noble Verse that condemns the Christians for believing in nothing but conjecture.  Where is Judas name mentioned in the Holy Quran?  You were taught wrong.  The Noble Verse ONLY mentions Jesus (Isa), peace be upon him.  Therefore, only him went through the whole thing.  If another person was a substitute, then the Noble Verse should've mentioned it.  Otherwise, I have no reason to conjecture.

From reading the entire Glorious Quran, it became quite clear to me that Isa could not have been killed.  Period.  That's all what the Noble Verse is saying.  This is why Allah Almighty Said that He RAISED JESUS TO HIM.  Yes, because Jesus never died, even though he was "crucified" and "killed".  Yet, he was never crucified nor killed.  The infidels thought wrong.

Furthermore, Jesus (Isa), in the Glorious Quran, was given THE BOOK that enabled him to even do limited creating by Allah Almighty's Permission.  BOOKS were given to mighty creations by Allah Almighty.  I have listed several examples from the Glorious Quran:

www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_creating.htm

Also in the Bible, Jesus had to seek GOD Almighty's Permission before he performed any Miracle:

www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_had_no_will.htm

All of this further supports my claims, above.  Indeed in makes perfect sense that a mighty creation who was given the Book that enabled him to do limited creating could not be killed either by being stabbing or by being crucified on the cross.  It makes sense that Allah Almighty Created him like this.

I hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline fadi

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2016, 01:25:32 am »
As’salamo alaik akhi Osama,

You said “I have no reason to conjecture.” But in fact you did when you said “but he (Jesus) was also given the power to feel no pain.  As I explained in the conversation, you could drive a sword right threw his gut and out his back, and he still wouldn't feel pain…” Can you kindly advise me where in Quran Allah said so?

According to Quran, Allah allowed Jesus to perform ONLY the following miracles by His will:
1.   (3:46) He will speak unto mankind in his cradle
2.   (3:49) And will make him a messenger unto the Children of Israel, (saying): Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be believers.
3.   (5:112) When the disciples said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Is thy Lord able to send down for us a table spread with food from heaven?... (5:115) Allah said: I am going to send it down unto you …
4.   If you want, you can also read (5:110). It’s similar to verse (3:49) above.

Regarding Cross, please note that Allah said (وَلَـٰكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ but it appeared so unto them) which strongly support that another person alike Jesus was placed on the cross, otherwise Allah would have said (ولكن ظنوا But they thought). Allah clearly said “they slew him not nor crucified him” which supports (شُبِّهَ alike) i.e Jesus was never put on the cross.
وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـٰكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ ۚ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ ۚ مَا لَهُم بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلَّا اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا
بَل رَّفَعَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ ۚ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا

(4:157-158) And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise

Since Allah said that they never killed Jesus, then (مُتَوَفِّيكَ does not mean “cause you to die”, it means “cause you to sleep”) as in (39:42) below.
(3:55) Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَا عِيسَىٰ إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ

(39:42) It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا


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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2016, 02:31:35 pm »
Wa Alaikum As'salam dear brother Fadi,

Brother, your argument further proves my points.  Shubbiha (appeared as such) does not refer to a substitute.  The following example should make it clear insha'Allah:



Playing dead to a bear:

Imagine you were hiking in the forest alone, and suddenly a huge bear appears in front of you.  You get down on your face and play dead.  The bear thinks you're dead and decides to walk away.  It APPEARED (SHUBBIHA) TO THE BEAR that you were dead when you weren't.  No substitute.  Just you and the bear.  It was SHUBBIHA to the bear that you were dead, and he got confused and left.

This is basic Arabic.  No conjecture from my part.  The conjecture comes from those who try to bring theories left and right to interpret the Noble Verse.  You don't have to do this if you just let it speak for itself.  The Noble Verse is only speaking about Jesus (Isa), peace be upon him.  So, SUBBIHA LAHUM (appeared as such to them) means that JESUS APPEARED to have been killed by them when he wasn't.  They never killed him neither on the cross nor by stabbing.



Osama is using Conjecture:

You said that I am using conjecture and asked me to prove where one could stab Jesus in the gut, with the sword, and drive it out his back, and still not be able to kill Jesus.  Again, Allah Almighty Said they neither KILLED HIM nor CRUCIFIED HIM.  And we know from the Christian sources that they placed him on the cross and even stabbed him with a spear. 

Now, whether these stories are accurate or not, it still doesn't matter, because here the GLORIOUS QURAN IS RESPONDING TO THEIR FALSEHOODS.  So them claiming these things in their writings makes it all relevant to the Noble Verse.  Therefore, the "killing" of Jesus never happened.  Allah Almighty further assures it in the same Noble Verse:

[004:157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.



Jesus went to the WAFAT state and ascended up to Allah Almighty:

Your point about Jesus going to WAFAT state actually proves my point even more.  Allah Almighty Said in the Glorious Quran:

‏39:42 الله يتوفى الانفس حين موتها والتي لم تمت في منامها فيمسك التي قضى عليها الموت ويرسل الاخرى الى اجل مسمى ان في ذلك لايات لقوم يتفكرون

[039:042]  It is God that takes الله يتوفى the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep: those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.

Allah Almighty يتوفى YATAWAFFA (root word WAFAT) our souls during our sleep, and we either die or wake up again. 

The fact that Allah Almighty TAWAFFA (root word WAFAT) Jesus indisputably proves my point.  Thank you for the point, akhi Fadi.  Here Allah Almighty TAWAFFA Jesus in either two cases:

1-  While Jesus was sleeping normally like you and me, and The Almighty decided to not have him wake up here on earth, and decided to raise him in his body to Him in Heaven.

-- OR --

2-  Allah Almighty TAWAFFA Jesus after he was "killed" by the infidels, when he wasn't, and decided to take him up to Heaven to Him after Jesus came back together, or healed, in the tomb while he was resting on the floor.

It is crystal clear that point #2 is the valid one.  Jesus was taken up to Heaven ALIVE after being "killed" by the infidels.  Yet, he was never killed by them, even if they fed him to a grinding machine and made ground beef out of him.  Like the birds that Abraham, peace be upon him, cut into pieces and scattered in different places, they came together to life right before his eyes.  Jesus too would've came back to life.



Jesus, the Mighty Being:

The points that I mentioned above about Jesus' Miracles, and the BOOK that was given to him that enabled him to perform them, and the fact that Jesus was even allowed to do limited CREATING further prove that this mighty being could not have been killed on the cross by being nailed on it for few hours and stabbed by a spear on the side.

No conjecture, my dear brother.  Only solid Truth.  May Allah Almighty bless you.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline fadi

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2016, 08:43:56 pm »
Akhi Osama, As’salamo Alaik,

Thank you kindly for taking the time to read my comments and for your response. May Allah reward you for your efforts. I just want to add few verses from Quran to illustrate further that another person was placed on the cross and not Jesus.

Allah said (shubbiha شُبِّهَ) means “alike” as in (Mo-ta-shab-ihan 2:25 and they shall be given the like of it); (Ta-shabah 2:70 to us all cows are alike); (Ta-shabahat 2:118 Their hearts are alike); and (3:7; 6:99; 6:144; 13:16, 39:23) 

If Allah meant that Jesus was the one who placed on the cross, He would have said (Hasebo  حَسِبُوا) means “think” as in (Haseb-tom 2:214 Or think you that you will enter Paradise without such (trials)); (yah-sabahom 2:273 The one who knows them not, thinks that they are rich); and (3:78; 3:142; 3:169; etc.)

Or, He could have said (Zano ظنوا) means “guess or think” (ya-zonon 2:46 Who bear in mind the certainty); (ya-zonon 2:78 and they but guess); etc.

Or He could have said (Shako شكوا) means “doubt” as (Shak 40:34 but ye ceased not to doubt); (Shak 41:45 they are in grave doubt); etc.

As you see, Allah said (shubbiha شُبِّهَ) to indicate that another person “looks like” Jesus. Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar precisely translated to “a likeness to him of another was shown to them”.

In my previous post, I said:
"Since Allah said that they never killed Jesus, then (مُتَوَفِّيكَ does not mean “cause you to die”, it means “cause you to sleep”) as in (39:42) below.
(3:55) Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَا عِيسَىٰ إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ

(39:42) It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا " but when I viewed the post, I only saw one word from this verse "مَنَامِهَا", thus I decided to mention it again.

Akhi Osama: regarding (يتوفى YATAWAFFA), I am very stunned of how you made a conclusion that “It is crystal clear that point #2 is the valid one. Jesus was taken up to Heaven ALIVE after being "killed" by the infidels.” But, Allah clearly said that they DID NOT kill him. Therefore, as I explained in my previous post, Allah caused him to sleep when He raised him.

I appreciate that you may not agree with me but this is my understanding from Quran. Jesus was never died or even placed on the cross. He was raised alive while sleeping. And Allah knows best.

Offline fadi

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2016, 08:56:04 pm »
Salam again,

That's strange. For the second time I posted verse (39:42) اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا Allah takes the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep.

I only see one word from this verse in my monitor (مَنَامِهَا). Please refer to (In my previous post, I said: ...)
 


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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2016, 03:20:03 am »
Wa Alaikum As'salam dear brother Fadi,

There are several errors in your posts.  The following are the corrections:

1-  Hasebo  حَسِبُوا does not mean "think".  It means reckoned.

2-  Zano ظنوا.  It is not ZANO.  It is THANNO.  And it means "they thought".

3-  Shako شكوا.  Doubted.  Ok.  But what does this have to do with seeing Jesus getting crucified.

4-  Shubbiha شُبِّهَ does not just mean alike.  And I don't know why you insist on this meaning when that would be wrong in the context of Noble Verse 4:157.  I already gave you the playing dead to the bear example.  By playing dead, the bear would be confused into thinking that the person is dead.  There would be TASHABUH (mix up).  And it would be SHUBBIHA to the bear that the person was dead, when in fact the person was alive playing dead.

We're not in much disagreements here regarding the meanings of the Noble Word SHUBBIHA.  However, you keep insisting on forcing a false interpretation into the Noble Verse.  The following points are important to consider:

1-  No second person was mentioned in the Noble Verse.

2-  Jesus was the one who was sentenced to death.

3-  Jesus was "executed" by the infidels.  Notice the double quotes here.

4-  It appeared to them that Jesus was killed.

So far we do not have any second person here.  Allah Almighty saved Jesus from pain and death.  This is in the Bible and the Glorious Quran.  Now, let's pay attention to the point that will finish the conjecture:


5-  Allah Almighty RAISED JESUS TO HIM.  We already talked about WAFAT and TAWAFFA. 

6-  It makes no sense that Jesus was raised to Heaven during his sleep before the crucifixion.  I say this because:


(a)-  AGAIN AND AGAIN, no second person is mentioned in the Noble Verse.  You are forcing this on Noble Verse 4:157!  It is all about Jesus and none other.

(b)-  Allah Almighty elaborated twice in the same Noble Verse, 4:157, that they did not kill Jesus.

(c)-  If Jesus wasn't even on earth that day, let alone the cross, then the context of the Noble Verse should've been that they did not even capture Jesus.  But instead, the context is about Jesus' execution and its details.


You have nothing but conjecture when you insist on a second person substitution.  Noble Verse 4:157 does not mention any second person.  You are the one forcing this on the Holy Quran.  Why do you keep injecting this falsehood into the Glorious Quran?  We already have Prophets before Jesus that were saved from death DURING EXECUTION by Allah Almighty.  I already gave you Abraham and Jonah. 



Jonah's Parable:

And did not Jesus give his last and final Parable to his disciples to be that similar to Jonah's experience?  We know:

1-  Jonah was alive when he was on the shore.
2-  Jonah was alive when he was in the whale's belly.
3-  Jonah was alive when he was vomited out of the whale's belly.


And Jonah in the Bible and the Glorious Quran went through death and survived it.  I know the Bible is not the Holy Word of Allah Almighty, but not all of it is false either.  I find it quite amazing that Jesus used Jonah as his final parable, because this destroys the crucifixion lie.  There is so much evidence that backs up my point from the Bible.  It is just that some Muslims and the Christians have this whole thing misunderstood.



Was there a substitute to Jonah?

Both the Bible and the Glorious Quran agree that there was no substitute to Jonah.  And it is quite obvious that those who saw Jonah get swallowed by the whale also thought that he was dead.  SHUBBIHA LAHUM there also.

So if Jesus used Jonah as his last and final Parable, and there was no substitute to Jonah, then why on earth must we believe that there was a substitute to Jesus on the cross?  Who is using conjecture here?



Why the Parable when he will not even go through it?

And why must Jesus give his SILLY PARABLE of Jonah when he himself will not even go through the "death" (notice the double quotes) experience??  What does he have to do with any of it if he wasn't to go through it?

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2016, 02:42:25 pm »
Salam Osama,

I totally understood your argument. You are saying that they placed Jesus on the cross, nailed him, etc until they believed that they killed him (i.e. he died), but Allah told us in Quran that he did not die.

Allah said “they killed him not, nor crucified him”. Why didn’t Allah say “they crucified him but did not kill him, but so it was made to appear to them”? In my humble understanding, Allah said “they did not crucify him” is self explanatory that he was not crucified or even came close to the cross. Then Allah continued and said (وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ and those who differ therein). My question is: what did they differ in? of whether he is dead or not. If so, they could simply continue to hit him many times in a sword and there is no reason to differ. What makes more sense to me that they differ in of whether he is Jesus or someone else?

Akhi Osama, please note that in no way I am enforcing my opinion on anyone but our purpose is we chat on the blog to understand the truth only.

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2016, 03:38:08 pm »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Fadi,

You raised very good points, akhi.  Here are my responses to them:

1-  They crucified him not, nor killed him.  You asked why did Allah Almighty make a distinction between them.  If Jesus was placed on the cross and did not die, then he was crucified without being killed.  But the problem with your statement is that at the end of the same Noble Verse, Allah Almighty did sum them up:

[004:157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

So whether death by the cross of by killing in other ways, it never happened.  "...nor did they crucify him..." here clearly means that they did not kill him through crucifixion.  Again, the end of the Noble Verse makes that very clear that death did not happen neither by crucifixion nor by stabbing or any other mean.


2-  What did they differ on Jesus, you asked.  They differed on him in so many things:

(a)-  That he is GOD Almighty who died for our sins.
(b)-  That he actually died.
(c)-  That he actually resurrected from death.

Not all early Christians agreed on what happened to Jesus.  Much disputes and theories and roamers started floating around.  And again, Allah Almighty brings it all together by saying in the same Noble Verse:

[004:157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.


3-  You asked: "What makes more sense to me that they differ in of whether he is Jesus or someone else?".

RESPONSE:

Allah Almighty used the word SUBSTITUTE (BADAL) 35 times in 34 Noble Verses throughout the Glorious Quran.  Yet, this Noble Word was never used in Noble Verse 4:157.

Also, it is quite clear from the Glorious Quran that Allah Almighty left the details of the experience to be looked at in the Christians' books, since this topic is theirs.  And when we examine their books, we find the JONAH PARABLE, which I elaborated on above.  And since Jonah was never substituted by anyone, then Jesus too was not substituted by anyone, since Jesus used the Jonah Parable as his ultimate and last one.

I hope this helps, insha'Allah, my dear brother.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline Omar Ahmed

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2016, 03:49:24 pm »
In the end Allah swt knows best and we shouldn't argue on this.
The only thing we can be sure of is that Jesus pbuh was not killed by the jews, whether he died in any other means we are not sure.

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2016, 01:18:35 am »
Wa-alaikum as’salam akhi Osama,

You said in your post above (“it is quite clear from the Glorious Quran that Allah Almighty left the details of the experience to be looked at in the Christians books, since this topic is theirs.”) I want to remind all of us that this contradicts Quran. Allah said that He explained everything in Quran in great details, and He wants us to use only Quran.

(50:45) We are most knowing of what they say, and you are not over them a tyrant. But remind by the Qur'an whoever fears My threat.
       
(6:38) There is not a moving (living) creature on earth, nor a bird that flies with its two wings, but are communities like you. We have neglected nothing in the Book, then unto their Lord they (all) shall be gathered. 

(30:58) And We have certainly presented to the people in this Qur'an from every [kind of] example. But, [O Muhammad], if you should bring them a sign, the disbelievers will surely say, “You [believers] are but falsifiers.”

(39:27) We have put forth for men, in this Qur'an every kind of Parable, in order that they may receive admonition.

(17:89) And indeed We have fully explained to mankind, in this Quran, every kind of similitude, but most mankind refuse (the truth and accept nothing) but disbelief.

(18:54) And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2016, 04:13:34 am »
Quote
....I want to remind all of us that this contradicts Quran....

Wa Alaikum As'salam dear brother Fadi,

Brother, this is a very shallow argument.  It is so shallow that one would be immediately dismissed as not worthy of debating.  I am not saying this about you.  I am only advising you and the reader.

The Glorious Quran is indeed CRYSTAL CLEAR and VERY DETAILED about all of the things that we need for our Salvation, and all of the foundations of Islam.  But Allah Almighty mentioned in many Noble Verses that He left the details for Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, to explain.  Please visit the following link to see the 100s of the Glorious Quran's Moral Code that I personally was able to extract from the Holy Book:

www.answering-christianity.com/quran_moral_code.htm

So it's quite detailed as far as the Moral Code and everything that we need for our Salvation.  The Glorious Quran Commands us to Pray, pay Zakat (Islamic Charity), Fast, perform Hajj (pilgrimage), and many other things.  Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, detailed the times and rules on how to perform them.  You won't find the detailed rules and conditions of Zakat in the Glorious Quran.  You won't find the the detailed rules and conditions for performing Hajj in the Glorious Quran, and so on.

So the details of certain things being left out of the Glorious Quran isn't a contradiction at all.  We just have to know how to read and understand the Glorious Quran when we read It.  That's all.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2017, 09:40:21 am »
As'salamu Alaikum Everyone,

I'd like to consider the following:

1-  Pontus pilot stood between TWO MEN that had the same exact TITLES, i.e., "first" and "last" names; both were called Isa Baraba (Jesus son of his father).  In Arabic and Greek, Jesus is called ISA and IESU.  In Latin, he is called IESUS.  Let us look at what the Bible says:




Setup for Conjecture, the cursed ones indeed were:

The two Jesuses and Pilot:

Matthew 27
16 At that time they had a well-known prisoner whose name was Jesus Barabbas (son of his father, suggests he was a bastard).
17 So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, “Which one do you want me to release to you: Jesus Barabbas, or Jesus who is called the Messiah?”



Since our Jesus was fatherless (his father was not known), then for sure, people also called him  Jesus Barabbas, or at least this would've been his official name during the execution day.  Please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/isaiah_53.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/conversation_i_had_on_crucifixion_lie.htm



2-  Not everyday crucifixion events happened.  So you can imagine with me here that THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE have flocked to witness the event, especially that life back then was quite boring.  No TVs, no internet, no cell phones, no technology.  So, such event would definitely be quite an entertainment for them, and would be worthy to go and see.


3-  So, since the OTHER JESUS, was wanted for murdering Roman soldiers, then you would also agree with me that he was not going to live to see tomorrow!  He was going to die for sure that day.



Survive the Cross = YOU LIVE!

It is also important to know that if one survives the cross, then he can be kept alive and not to be killed, especially if the ruler doesn't want him killed from the first place:

1-  From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Survival:

"Survival
Since death does not follow immediately on crucifixion, survival after a short period of crucifixion is possible, as in the case of those who choose each year as a devotional practice to be non-lethally crucified.

There is an ancient record of one person who survived a crucifixion that was intended to be lethal, but that was interrupted. Josephus recounts: "I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered."[55] Josephus gives no details of the method or duration of the crucifixion of his three friends before their reprieve."




Pilot, his Wife, and the "innocent man":

Contrast this with Pilot and his wife who didn't want Jesus dead:
   
Matthew 27
19 While Pilate was sitting on the judge’s seat, his wife sent him this message: “Don’t have anything to do with that innocent man (innocent man??), for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him.”
.....
24 When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!”

   

So both Pilot and his wife considered our Jesus to be an innocent man.  And Pilot further says that he is innocent from Jesus' blood.  This further proves that if Jesus was alive in the cave, then no one would've wanted him dead.  Instead, they would've all been more than willing to offer him medicine and treatment.



2-  From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Legal_execution:

In today's laws in some of the countries that still use crucifixion for capital punishment, we read:

"Theoretically, crucifixion is still one of the Hadd punishments in Iran.[103][104] If a crucified person were to survive three days of crucifixion, that person would be allowed to live.[105] Execution by hanging is described as follows: "In execution by hanging, the prisoner will be hung on a hanging truss which should look like a cross, while his (her) back is toward the cross, and (s)he faces the direction of Mecca [in Saudi Arabia], and his (her) legs are vertical and distant from the ground."[106]"



3-  From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Japan:

Also, keep in mind that Jesus was only placed for few hours on the cross.  Yet, we have stories from World War II where people actually survived the crucifixion despite being crucified on the cross for many long tens (10s) of hours:

"Crucifixion was used as a punishment for prisoners of war during World War II. Ringer Edwards, an Australian prisoner of war, was crucified for killing cattle, along with two others. He survived 63 hours before being let down."




The Decreed Conjecture!

4-  Putting Islam aside, it seems quite clear that even in the Bible, Allah Almighty has set up this event to cause confusion among the thousands and thousands from the crowd.  So, while OUR JESUS was taken to the cross, the other Jesus was executed.  Both the Bible and the Glorious Quran agree that Jesus was never killed.  And we've seen how the Romans didn't kill those who survive the cross.  Once the execution fails, the condemned to death gets to live.

Keep in mind that both Jesuses also most likely looked very similar.  Both had very long beards and hairs, light or brown skin, dark hair, etc...  Both basically looked Middle Eastern.  So here we have:

1-  Their names are exactly the same.
2-  They were to be executed on the same exact day.
3-  They both had very similar looks, if not even the same, since it is Allah Almighty who planned the whole conjecture.


After all, Allah Almighty did Say in the Glorious Quran:

[022:004] About whom it has been decreed, that he will lead astray anyone who abides by him, and that he will steer his flock straight into the torment of hellfire.

[004:088] Why are ye divided concerning the ungodly into two parties; since God hath overturned them for what they have committed? Will ye direct him whom God hath led astray; since for him whom God shall lead astray, thou shalt find no true path?




Executed on the same exact day??

This couldn't be a coincident.  The two Jesuses were executed on the same exact day??  Not that one was executed in February and the other in September, for example?  Not even in the same month but on two different days?  NO.  They had to stand with Pontus Pilot, with the latter standing in between them, both on the same exact day.

It is very clear that Allah Almighty had set these people up for a DECREED CONJECTURE!


I also would like to repeat the following statement that I said earlier above to brother Fadi:

"Allah Almighty used the word SUBSTITUTE (BADAL) 35 times in 34 Noble Verses throughout the Glorious Quran.  Yet, this Noble Word was never used in Noble Verse 4:157."





5-  You can now see very clearly that the people would start propagating their confusions and mixups.  SOME WOULD SAY HE WAS KILLED, "I saw him".  Others would say: "NO MAN, HE GOT CRUCIFIED".  The roamers were flying left and right among the thousands and thousands of people.  This is where Allah Almighty came to settle the score once and for all by saying:



(a)-  THEY NEITHER KILLED HIM.
(b)-  NOR CRUCIFIED HIM.
(c)-  But it appeared as such to them.



So here, Allah Almighty listed the roamers.  He addressed them.  And He then sums it all up by Saying at the end of the Noble Verse:

(a)-  BUT FOR SURE, THEY NEVER KILLED HIM:


[004:157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

This includes all of the roamers on how he supposedly got killed.  Allah Almighty puts it all to rest by assuring all mankind that Jesus was never killed in anyway, shape or form.  If Jesus was not even there on earth that day, then this last part of the Noble Verse would be more accurate to say something like:




More accurate:

"...they never even touched him."
"...they never seized him."
"...they never even got hold of him."


But no, the Noble Verse says "THEY NEVER KILLED HIM, FOR SURE".  This clearly says that Jesus was there in the event.  Again, I would like to repeat the following statement that I said earlier above to brother Fadi:

"Allah Almighty used the word SUBSTITUTE (BADAL) 35 times in 34 Noble Verses throughout the Glorious Quran.  Yet, this Noble Word was never used in Noble Verse 4:157."





Conjecture by Osama Abdallah?

Absolutely not.  I did not conjecture.  I instead connected the dots.  And the evidence above makes perfect sense and is standing on very solid ground.  And I don't mean to be obnoxious, but I MUST repeat the following statement that I said earlier above to brother Fadi:

"Allah Almighty used the word SUBSTITUTE (BADAL) 35 times in 34 Noble Verses throughout the Glorious Quran.  Yet, this Noble Word was never used in Noble Verse 4:157."

I challenge ALL MUSLIMS to refute this.  Again, please also visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/isaiah_53.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/conversation_i_had_on_crucifixion_lie.htm








The Salafi and Shia:

On a side note, I have one question to those from the salafies and shias, who say that the interpretation of the STUNNING Scientific Miracles of the Glorious Quran are false, because the Hadiths do not say what we say today, then I want to ask them how come your hadiths are silent about Jesus' crucifixion??  You have to conjecture and put out several theories, including "Judas substituted Jesus".

This attitude that if it's not in the hadiths then it's false has no merits.  It is nothing but conjecture and falsehood from the cults that do Islam so much harm:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac11.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/warning.htm



And I further want to renew my challenge to all of the cultists to refute the NUMERICAL MIRACLES in the Glorious Quran, and to also refute the ample definitions that we provided from the dictionaries that thoroughly demonstrate the Glorious Quran's Scientific Miracles:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

Those who attack the Scientific Miracles in the Glorious Quran, NEVER DARE to attack the Numerical Miracles!  I have yet to see one from them step forward and refute these STUNNING MIRACLES.

Cultists can make empty assertions.  But their empty words have no merits and not substance.  And I love how when I make them mad enough, they call me an apostate.  This happened several times before.  Gotta love the emptiness of those people, and how it occurs to them to resort to these name-callings against other Muslims.



Furthermore from www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2445.msg11096.html#msg11096:

I would like everyone to notice the following important points:

1-  Notice how the infidels try to discredit the Glorious Quran's STUNNING Scientific and Numerical Miracles by saying that the Greeks wrote it before.

2-  Of course, they have to resort to big leaps of lies and exaggerations to prove their lies about both the Greeks and the Glorious Quran.

3-  But if you look past their lies and smoke screens, what do you see?  You see that they concede that the Quran indeed contains the Scientific Miracles that they can't refute.




4-  And I have yet to see one monkey from them dare to refute the NUMERICAL MIRACLES.  Here is an example:

It's funny that when I wrote my article about Paul calling GOD Almighty a fool, three Arab stooges from the infidels' team jumped to refute my Arabic analysis.  LOL.  Over a small article, they popped out of the sewage and rushed to "refute me".  You can see the link here:

www.answering-christianity.com/pauls_blasphemy_against_god.htm


Yet, I've had the NUMERICAL MIRACLES for years now, and no rodent ever stepped forward to refute them.  Yeah.  So much for their "refutations" of the Holy Quran's Miracles.  Again, visit the following links and cut all of the BS from your minds:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#main_sections






Islam is the Divine Truth!

Islam is the Divine Truth of GOD Almighty.  Don't let any doomed-to-Hell infidel make you question that, my dear brothers and sisters in Islam.  Be at peace.  The Holy Quran is Perfect and Miraculous.  And most importantly, it is Divine and from Allah Almighty.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline adilriaz123

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2017, 02:20:19 pm »
Asalam ul laykum brothers. I noticed there were 2 points that did not recieve much attention.

1. Who or what is holy ghost.
2. The last supper.

In qura  allah swt, mentions that holy ghost is inspiration and as we know from the event of jesus pbuh birth that the inspiration was sent via angel gabriel a.s.

(Quran 2:97) Say, "Anyone who opposes Gabriel should know that he has brought down this (Quran) into your (muhammad pbuh) heart, in accordance with God's will, confirming previous scriptures, and providing guidance and good news for the believers."

(Quran 16:102) Say, "The Holy spirit has brought it (Quran) down from your Lord, truthfully, to assure those who believe, and to provide a beacon and good news for the submitters."

Srry that was bit off topic but i wanted that to be clear for the viewers.

Part 2

Regarding how the last supper has a big part in this conversation.

Surah al maedah verses 112-115 mention the event of the last supper. As we know Judas was among the believers of jesus a.s. at the moment.

Quran (5:115) Allah said, "Indeed, I will sent it (table cloth from heaven) down  to you, but WHOEVER DISBELIEVES AFTERWARDS from AMONG YOU - then indeed will I PUNISH HIM with a punishment by which I have not punished anyone among the WORLDS."

What does the above ayat indicate?

1. As we know judas was at the last supper and was a former disciple of jesus pbuh.
2. Judas was the only disciple that betrayed jesus pbuh. Bible 18:2 "Now Judas, who BETRAYED HIM, knew the place, because Jesus often met there with his disciples." Till verse 18:8. Which shows only 1 person came back out after Judas went in to get Jesus pbuh. That means it could have only been Judas back because quran says allah swt saved him, also that it appeared to them that it was jesus pbuh.
3. The supposed jesus said "My Lord, My Lord, why have you forsaken me?" God never forsakes a believer or uses him as a example which when we might do something what are we suppose to do in order to get back into god's grace. But this wasn't god's example, allah swt said clearly this is punishment, when allah makes someone example he the almighty says that He (allah swt) forgave him(the prophet or the individual).




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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2017, 02:22:02 pm »
Allah swt and his rasool pbuh knows best i am only posting my findings and understanding and seek forgiveness  from allah swt if i got anything wrong.

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2017, 04:23:39 pm »
Wa Alaikum As'salam akhi Adil Riaz,

Gabriel, peace be upon him, is not the Holy Spirit or Ghost.  This is another area of conjecture done by some Muslims.  Please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/holy_spirit.htm


As to Judas, are you saying that GOD Almighty changed his looks to Jesus?  How would they have crucified Jesus if they didn't arrest him and hand him over to Pilot and then to the soldiers to take him and crucify him?  Judas would've been identified as Jesus.  Now, I know that Allah Almighty is well capable of blinding them and making them think it was Jesus, but none of that is mentioned in the Glorious Quran.  You're adding all of this, akhi. 

Also as I mentioned in the previous post above:

"Allah Almighty used the word SUBSTITUTE (BADAL) 35 times in 34 Noble Verses throughout the Glorious Quran.  Yet, this Noble Word was never used in Noble Verse 4:157."



What is mentioned in the Glorious Quran is that Allah Almighty addressed the two scenarios people thought Jesus was killed on:

1-  Executing him.
2-  Crucifying him.


And then Allah Almighty summed it all up by saying Jesus was never killed in any and all scenarios.  And I did bring from the Bible that Pontus Pilate was standing between TWO JESUS "SON OF HIS FATHER" persons.  Now that would create a lot of confusion, especially when the other Jesus had to be executed for killing Roman soldiers.  I have more reasons to believe this than to believe the conjecture that you mentioned, especially that new discoveries show Judas as a righteous disciple who never betrayed Jesus.

Whether he did or not, you're making a huge leap to say that it was Judas that was placed on the cross akhi.  And again and again, WHERE ARE THE HADITHS in all of this?




Noble Verse 5:115:

[005:111]  "And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Apostle: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to God as Muslims'".

[005:112]  Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear God, if ye have faith."

[005:113]  They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle."

[005:114]  Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O God our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)."

[005:115]  God said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples."


‏5:110 اذ قال الله ياعيسى ابن مريم اذكر نعمتي عليك وعلى والدتك اذ ايدتك بروح القدس تكلم الناس في المهد وكهلا واذ علمتك الكتاب والحكمة والتوراة والانجيل واذ تخلق من الطين كهيئة الطير باذني فتنفخ فيها فتكون طيرا باذني وتبرئ الاكمه والابرص باذني واذ تخرج الموتى باذني واذ كففت بني اسرائيل عنك اذ جئتهم بالبينات فقال الذين كفروا منهم ان هذا الا سحر مبين
‏5:111 واذ اوحيت الى الحواريين ان امنوا بي وبرسولي قالوا امنا واشهد باننا مسلمون
‏5:112 اذ قال الحواريون ياعيسى ابن مريم هل يستطيع ربك ان ينزل علينا مائدة من السماء قال اتقوا الله ان كنتم مؤمنين
‏5:113 قالوا نريد ان ناكل منها وتطمئن قلوبنا ونعلم ان قد صدقتنا ونكون عليها من الشاهدين
‏5:114 قال عيسى ابن مريم اللهم ربنا انزل علينا مائدة من السماء تكون لنا عيدا لاولنا واخرنا واية منك وارزقنا وانت خير الرازقين
‏5:115 قال الله اني منزلها عليكم فمن يكفر بعد منكم فاني اعذبه عذابا لااعذبه احدا من العالمين


There are some issues with your points above regarding this Noble Verse:

1-  The Noble Verse was speaking about all of the disciples of Jesus, and not just one person.

2-  The warning from Allah Almighty came because He, the Almighty, sent down to them a special Sign for them from Him.  So rejecting after this would bring catastrophic consequences on anyone who turns to disbelief after that.

3-  This is similar to the Jews who were turned into pigs and monkies because they violated the Sabbath after the Divine Signs that were shown to them, such as splitting the sea.


I get your point akhi that Judas being a substitute to Jesus would indeed be a punishment that no one in this world ever experienced.  But the Glorious Quran never spoke about any substitute to Jesus, as I thoroughly demonstrated in the link that I gave above.  Again, as I mentioned in the previous post above:

"Allah Almighty used the word SUBSTITUTE (BADAL) 35 times in 34 Noble Verses throughout the Glorious Quran.  Yet, this Noble Word was never used in Noble Verse 4:157."


On the other hand, it would make sense that Allah Almighty used Judas to go through the crucifixion instead of Jesus, since:

1-  He betrayed Jesus.
2-  His punishment would be indeed very unique.

3-  But his unique punishment translating into him being the substitute for Jesus is a big leap, because the Glorious Quran never spoke about Jesus being substituted by anyone. 

4-  So I won't allow myself to force this upon the Holy Quran.


I believe that the TWO JESUSES, and the possible replacement of Judas on the cross, - even though no SUBSTITUTE was mentioned, but I'll accept it for the sake of argument, - would be in harmony together, and would indeed CONFIRM THE GLORIOUS QURAN'S Claims that indeed, it appeared that Jesus:

1-  Was executed.
2-  Was crucified.

In other words, two different deaths were attributed to Jesus that Allah Almighty made the people think that they happened to Jesus.  And indeed, Allah Almighty ALWAYS Knows Best.


Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline adilriaz123

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2017, 06:08:54 pm »
Brother osama im sorry if you nisunderstood what i meant by that, but i do mean that holy spirit is INSPIRATION, in some cases it was in form of gabriel while other cases god directly gave it like how allah swt blew it in into mary a.s. womb. I did not mean to limit the spirit to just gabriel a.s. but i did say it was INSPIRATION. So yes i do agree with you that it comes in many form and no one says it is god. Because in Quran depending on the context it is easy to differenciate that holy spirit or spirit is different in all those cases.

But in regards to Judas, brother allah swt gave us clear warning that if any of you go turn back he will punish them. From what bible told what happen to judas when he went to get jesus pbuh while the soliders waited outside. When he emerged it wasnt judas so they asked the person who he is and they asked if it was jesus of naserath. Meaning the soliders and those among them never seen jesus. Since judas didnt emerge they though it can only be jesus.

But i would like to get more info if you believe this isnt correct i would like to know who was put on the cross. Because in quran it says that they did not crucify him. Meaning the person that was crucify wasnt jesus. Many jews till this day celebrate that they crucified jesus. When in quran allah swt said it was made to look as if they did. Then could mean that was either an illusion or the person on cross was someone else.

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2017, 06:19:10 pm »
Quote
When he emerged it wasnt judas so they asked the person who he is and they asked if it was jesus of naserath. Meaning the soliders and those among them never seen jesus. Since judas didnt emerge they though it can only be jesus.

Very interesting, dear brother.  The Bible also says that all of the disciples fled.  None of them witnessed the crucifixion.  Furthermore, in the newly discovered Gospel of Judas, we see that Jesus asked Judas to betray him:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/04/0406_060406_judas_2.html

Now, this could be to pave the way for Judas to be placed on the cross instead of Jesus.  Sort of like Ali sleeping in Prophet Muhammad's bed when the Prophet fled to Medina with Abu Bakr that night.  I'll investigate this further.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2017, 06:23:34 pm »
Yes that does make alot of sense. But i always feel a cringe when christians say " a new discovery" makes me feel here comes more made up stories.

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2017, 07:05:01 am »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers and sisters in Islam,

I have updated the thread above by adding new evidence that states that according to the Roman law, if one survives the crucifixion then he can be allowed to live:

www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2428.msg11210.html#msg11210

More and more evidence that clearly states that Jesus was never killed!

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline QuranSearchCom

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As'salamu Alaikum Everyone,

Brother Adil has posted a very good argument here also:

www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2610.msg12644.html#msg12644

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline QuranSearchCom

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As'salamu Alaikum Everyone,

Pay attention to this:

John 11
11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”
13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.


So basically, Jesus who was created from the Spirit and Word of Allah Almighty could not die.  The worst could happen to him is fall asleep.  Now while the verses are about Lazarus and his death, but notice how Jesus referred to it as only sleeping.  Another sound proof that destroys the lie about Jesus died on the cross.

Now of course, Allah Almighty could destroy Jesus and make him cease to exist.  This is mentioned in the Glorious Quran:

"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against God,  if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things."  (The Noble Quran, 5:17)"

Please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/word_of_god.htm




The Bible is full of lies!

Even the Bible's own theologians and histories in their Bible-commentaries declare that the Bible's books and gospels:

1. Do contain alterations, fables and man-made injections in them.
2. Written by mysterious men.
3. Written by an unknown number of men.
4. Written in unknown places.
5. Written in unknown dates.


For ample proofs, visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/authors_gospels.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac6.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/ac6.htm#paul


Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline adilriaz123

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Asalam ul laykum brother Osama, i looked at the entire passage brother, it dorsn't give any indication that Jesus pbuh is talking about himself but rather Lazerath, because the passage mentions:

12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”


So Jesus isn't talking about himself but Lazeraus as Sleep = Dead.

I don't think this passage is useful to delegitmatise crucifixion, since there is no similarities. Since Jesus pbuh is talking about Lazeraus dying and not himself.

Offline adilriaz123

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Asalam ul laykum here is another interestjng point, Christians point out that even though Crucifixion sounds unjust, it is the Father the Lord sacrifice and with his vast knowledge he sacrificed his son for sins of Mankind.

Now here is another problem. If the Father is the God of both the Old Testament and the New Testament, this logic fails completely due to this verse:

Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin (Deut. 24:16)

Even if Christians claim, well it says dying for the father, but jesus died for our sins, sins of mankind.

Here is another important thing to note, the verse says
 each will die for their own sin

Thus by the logic of the God of the New and Old Testament the crucifixion is illogical.

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Wa Alaikum As'salam dear brother,

I never said that Jesus was talking about himself.  I implied that the fact that Jesus didn't call Lazarus dead, when in fact Lazarus was dead, and only called him asleep further proofs that in Jesus' world Jesus could not have died or been killed through crucifixion, and that even if they were to drive the entire Roman army's swords through Jesus' body, and put him on the cross 100 times, he would still not be killed nor would he die, except by Allah Almighty's Will, - for Jesus when he returns must die a natural death:

[029:057]  All living beings must taste death! Then, towards Us you have to return!

[003:185]  Everyone shall taste death. And only on the Day of Resurrection shall you be paid your wages in full. And whoever is removed away from the Fire and admitted to Paradise, he indeed is successful. The life of this world is only the enjoyment of deception (a deceiving thing).

I hope this helps, Insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline adilriaz123

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Assalam ul laykum brother Osama, indeed there was much use of analygies by Jesus pbuh, the disciples, jews and the Roman. But what is interesting that Jesus pbuh continously states about the disciples "ye, of little faith" and lack of understanding. So this also helps us understand, there testimonies are very weak.

Offline Dawud

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for me most logical explanation how all happened during crucifixion

from gospel of barnabas

215: Divine Rescue of Jesus
When the soldiers with Judas drew near to the place where Jesus was, Jesus heard the approach of many people, wherefore in fear he withdrew into the house. And the eleven were sleeping. Then God, seeing the danger of his servant, commanded Gabriel;, Michael;, Rafael;, and Uriel, his ministers, to take Jesus out of the world. The holy angels came and took Jesus out by the window that looks toward the South;. They bare him and placed him in the third heaven in the company of angels blessing God for evermore.

216: Judas Transformed
Judas entered impetuously before all into the chamber whence Jesus had been taken up. And the disciples were sleeping. Whereupon the wonderful God acted wonderfully, insomuch that Judas was so changed in speech and in face to be like Jesus that we believed him to be Jesus. And he, having awakened us, was seeking where the Master was. Whereupon we marvelled, and answered: 'You, Lord, are our master; have you now forgotten us?'

And he, smiling, said: 'Now are you foolish, that know not me to be Judas Iscariot!' And as he was saying this the soldiery entered, and laid their hands upon Judas, because he was in every way like to Jesus. We having heard Judas' saying, and seeing the multitude of soldiers, fled as beside ourselves. And John, who was wrapped in a linen cloth, awoke and fled, and when a soldier seized him by the linen cloth he left the linen cloth and fled naked. For God heard the prayer of Jesus, and saved the eleven from evil.


217: Judas was Crucified
The soldiers took Judas ;and bound him, not without derision. For he truthfully denied that he was Jesus; and the soldiers, mocking him, said: 'Sir, fear not, for we are come to make you king of Israel, and we have bound you because we know that you do refuse the kingdom.' Judas answered: 'Now have you lost your senses! You are come to take Jesus of Nazareth;, with arms and lanterns as [against] a robber; and you have bound me that have guided you, to make me king!'
Then the soldiers lost their patience, and with blows and kicks they began to flout Judas, and they led him with fury into Jerusalem. John ;and Peter ;followed the soldiers afar off; and they affirmed to him who writes that they saw all the examination that was made of Judas by the high priest, and by the council of the Pharisees, who were assembled to put Jesus to death. Whereupon Judas spoke many words of madness, insomuch that every one was filled with laughter, believing that he was really Jesus, and that for fear of death he was feigning madness. Whereupon the scribes bound his eyes with a bandage, and mocking him said: 'Jesus, prophet of the Nazarenes ;(for so they called them who believed in Jesus), 'tell us, who was it that smote you?' And they buffeted him and spat in his face.

When it was morning there assembled the great council of scribes and elders of the people; and the high priest with the Pharisees sought false witness against Judas, believing him to be Jesus: and they found not that which they sought. And why say I that the chief priests believed Judas to be Jesus? No all the disciples, with him who writes, believed it; and more, the poor Virgin mother of Jesus, with his kinsfolk and friends, believed it, insomuch that the sorrow of every one was incredible.

As God lives, he who writes forgot all that Jesus had said: how that he should be taken up from the world, and that he should suffer in a third person, and that he should not die until near the end of the world. Wherefore he went with the mother of Jesus and with John to the cross. The high priest caused Judas ;to be brought before him bound, and asked him of his disciples and his doctrine. Whereupon Judas, as though beside himself, answered nothing to the point. The high priest then adjured him by the living God of Israel that he would tell him the truth.

Judas answered: 'I have told you that I am Judas Iscariot, who promised to give into your hands Jesus the Nazarene; and you, by what are I know not, are beside yourselves, for you will have it by every means that I am Jesus.' The high priest answered: 'O perverse seducer, you have deceived all Israel, beginning from Galilee ;even to Jerusalem here, with your doctrine and false miracles: and now think you to flee the merited punishment that befits you by feigning to be mad?

As God lives,' you shall not escape it!' And having said this he commanded his servants to smite him with buffetings and kicks, so that his understanding might come back into his head. The derision which he then suffered at the hands of the high priest's servants is past belief. For they zealously devised new inventions to give pleasure to the council. So they attired him as a juggler, and so treated him with hands and feet that it would have moved the very Canaanites to compassion if they had beheld that sight. But the chief priests and Pharisees and elders of the people had their hearts so exasperated against Jesus that, believing Judas to be really Jesus, they took delight in seeing him so treated.

Afterwards they led him bound to the governor, who secretly loved Jesus. Whereupon he, thinking that Judas was Jesus, made him enter into his chamber, and spoke to him, asking him for what cause the chief priests and the people had given him into his hands. Judas answered: 'If I tell you the truth, you will not believe me; for perhaps you are deceived as the (chief) priests and the Pharisees are deceived.'

The governor answered (thinking that he wished to speak concerning the Law): 'Now know you not that I am not a Jew? but the (chief) priests and the elders of your people have given you into my hand; wherefore tell us the truth, wherefore I may do what is just. For I have power to set you free and to put you to death.' Judas answered: 'Sir, believe me, if you put me to death, you shall do a great wrong, for you shall slay an innocent person; seeing that I am Judas ;Iscariot, and not Jesus, who is a magician, and by his are has so transformed me.'

When he heard this the governor marvelled greatly, so that he sought to set him at liberty. The governor therefore went out, and smiling said: 'In the one case, at least, this man is not worthy of death, but rather of compassion.' 'This man says,' said the governor, 'that he is not Jesus, but a certain Judas who guided the soldiery to take Jesus, and he says that Jesus the Galilean has by his are magic so transformed him. Wherefore, if this be true, it were a great wrong to kill him, seeing that he were innocent. But if he is Jesus and denies that he is, assuredly he has lost his understanding, and it were impious to slay a madman.'

Then the chief priests and elders of the people, with the scribes and Pharisees, cried out with shouts, saying: 'He is Jesus of Nazareth;, for we know him; for if he were not the malefactor we would not have given him into your hands. Nor is he mad; but rather malignant, for with this device he seeks to escape from our hands, and the sedition that he would stir up if he should escape would be worse than the former.' Pilate (of such was the governor's name), in order to rid himself of such a case, said: 'He is a Galilean, and Herod is king of Galilee: wherefore it pertains not to me to judge such a case, so take you him to Herod.'

Accordingly they led Judas to Herod, who of a long time had desired that Jesus should go to his house. But Jesus had never been willing to go to his house, because Herod was a Gentile, and adored the false and lying gods, living after the manner of the unclean Gentiles. Now when Judas had been led thither, Herod asked him of many things, to which Judas gave answers not to the purpose, denying that he was Jesus. Then Herod mocked him, with all his court, and caused him to be clad in white as the fools are clad;, and sent him back to Pilate, saying to him, 'Do not fail in justice to the people of Israel!' * And this Herod wrote, because the chief priests and scribes and the Pharisees had given him a good quantity of money. The governor having heard that this was so from a servant of Herod, in order that he also might gain some money, feigned that he desired to set Judas at liberty.

Whereupon he caused him to be scourged by his slaves, who were paid by the scribes to slay him under the scourges. But God, who had decreed the issue, reserved Judas for the cross, in order that he might suffer that horrible death to which he had sold another. He did not suffer Judas to die under the scourges, notwithstanding that the soldiers scourged him so grievously that his body rained blood. Thereupon, in mockery they clad him in an old purple garment;, saying: 'It is fitting to our new king to clothe him and crown him': so they gathered thorns and made a crown, like those of gold and precious stones which kings wear on their heads. And this crown of thorns they placed upon Judas' head, putting in his hand a reed for sceptre;, and they made him sit in a high place.

And the soldiers came before him, bowing down in mockery, saluting him as King of the Jews. And they held out their hands to receive gifts, such as new kings are accustomed to give; and receiving nothing they smote Judas, saying: 'Now, how are you crowned, foolish king, if you will not pay your soldiers and servants?' *The chief priests with the scribes and Pharisees, seeing that Judas died not by the scourges, and fearing lest Pilate should set him at liberty, made a gift of money to the governor, who having received it gave Judas to the scribes and Pharisees as guilty to death. Whereupon they condemned two robbers with him to the death of the cross.

So they led him to Mount Calvary, where they used to hang malefactors, and there they crucified him naked;, for the greater ignominy. *Judas truly did nothing else but cry out: 'God, why have you forsaken me, seeing the malefactor has escaped and I die unjustly?' *Truly I say that the voice, the face, and the person of Judas were so like to Jesus, that his disciples and believers entirely believed that he was Jesus; wherefore some departed from the doctrine of Jesus, believing that Jesus had been a false prophet, and that by art magic he had done the miracles which he did: for Jesus had said that he should not die till near the end of the world; for that at that time he should be taken away from the world.

But they that stood firm in the doctrine of Jesus were so encompassed with sorrow, seeing him die who was entirely like to Jesus, that they remembered not what Jesus had said. And so in company with the mother of Jesus they went to Mount Calvary, and were not only present at the death of Judas, weeping continually, but by means of Nicodemus and Joseph of Abarimathia; they obtained from the governor the body of Judas to bury it. Whereupon, they took him down from the cross with such weeping as assuredly no one would believe, and buried him in the new sepulchre of Joseph; having wrapped him up in an hundred pounds of precious ointments.


218: Body of Judas Stolen
Then returned each man to his house. He who writes, with John and James his brother, went with the mother of Jesus; to Nazareth.

Those disciples who did not fear God went by night [and] stole the body of Judas and hid it, spreading a report that Jesus was risen again; whence great confusion arose. The high priest then commanded, under pain of anathema;, that no one should talk of Jesus of Nazareth;. And so there arose a great persecution, and many were stoned and many beaten, and many banished from the land, because they could not hold their peace on such a matter.

The news reached Nazareth how that Jesus, their fellow citizen, having died on the cross was risen again. Whereupon, he that writes; prayed the mother of Jesus; that she would be pleased to leave off weeping, because her son was risen again. Hearing this, the Virgin Mary, weeping, said: 'Let us go to Jerusalem to find my son. I shall die content when I have seen him.'


219: Jesus appeareth to his mother and his disciples
The Virgin returned to Jerusalem with him who writes, and James and John, on that day on which the decree of the high priest went forth. Whereupon, the Virgin, who feared God, albeit she knew the decree of the high priest to be unjust, commanded those who dwelt with her to forget her son. Then how each one was affected! God who discerns the heart of men knows that between grief at the death of Judas whom we believed to be Jesus our master, and the desire to see him risen again, we, with the mother of Jesus, were consumed.
So the angels that were guardians of Mary ascended to the third heaven;, where Jesus was in the company of angels, and recounted all to him. Wherefore Jesus prayed God that he would give him power to see his mother and his disciples. Then the merciful God commanded his four favourite angels, who are Michael, Gabriel, Rafael;, and Uriel, to bear Jesus into his mother's house, and there keep watch over him for three days continually, suffering him only to be seen by them that believed in his doctrine.

Jesus came, surrounded with splendour, to the room where abode Mary the Virgin with her two sisters, and Martha and Mary Magdalen, and Lazarus, and him who writes, and John and James and Peter. Whereupon, through fear they fell as dead. And Jesus lifted up his mother and the others from the ground, saying: 'Fear not, for I am Jesus; and weep not, for I am alive and not dead.' They remained every one for a long time beside himself at the presence of Jesus, for they altogether believed that Jesus was dead. Then the Virgin, weeping, said: 'Tell me, my son, wherefore God, having given you power to raise the dead. suffered you to die, to the shame of your kinsfolk and friends, and to the shame of your doctrine? For every one that loves you has been as dead.'


220: Jesus and the Four Angels
Jesus replied, embracing his mother: 'Believe me, mother, for truly I say to you that I have not been dead at all; for God has reserved me till near the end of the world.' And having said this he prayed the four angels that they would manifest themselves, and give testimony how the matter had passed.

Thereupon the angels manifested themselves like four shining suns, insomuch that through fear every one again fell down as dead. Then Jesus gave four linen cloths to the angels that they might cover themselves, in order that they might be seen and heard to speak by his mother and her companions. And having lifted up each one, he comforted them, saying: 'These are the ministers of God: Gabriel, who announces God's secrets; Michael, who fights against God's enemies; Rafael, who receives the souls of them that die; and Uriel, who will call every one to the judgment of God at the last day. Then the four angels narrated to the Virgin how God had sent for Jesus, and had transformed Judas, that he might suffer the punishment to which he had sold another.

Then said he who writes: 'O Master, is it lawful for me to question you now, as it was lawful for me when you dwelt with us?' Jesus answered: 'Ask what you please, Barnabas, and I will answer you.' Then said he who writes: 'O Master, seeing that God is merciful, wherefore has he so tormented us, making us to believe that you were dead? and your mother has so wept for you that she has been near to death; and you, who are an holy one of God, on you has God suffered to fall the calumny that you were slain amongst robbers ;on the Mount Calvary?'

Jesus answered: 'Believe me, Barnabas, that every sin, however small it be, God punishes with great punishment, seeing that God is offended at sin. Wherefore, since my mother and my faithful disciples that were with me loved me a little with earthly love, the righteous God has willed to punish this love with the present grief, in order that it may not be punished in the flames of hell.

And though I have been innocent in the world, since men have called me "God," and "Son of God," God, in order that I be not mocked of the demons on the day of judgment, has willed that I be mocked of men in this world by the death of Judas;, making all men to believe that I died upon the cross. And this mocking shall continue until the advent of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, who, when he shall come, shall reveal this deception to those who believe in God's Law. Having thus spoken, Jesus said: 'You are just, O Lord our God, because to you only belongs honour and glory without end.'


221: Jesus Chargeth Barnabas to Write
Jesus turned himself to him who writes, and said: "Barnabas, see that by all means you write my gospel concerning all that has happened through my dwelling in the world. And write in a similar manner that which has befallen Judas, in order that the faithful may be undeceived, and every one may believe the truth." Then answered he who writes: "I will do so, if God wills, O Master; but I do not know what happened to Judas, for I did not see it."

Jesus answered: "Here are John and Peter who saw everything, and they will tell you all that has passed." And then Jesus commanded us to call his faithful disciples [so] that they might see him. So James and John called together the seven disciples with Nicodemus and Joseph, and many others of the seventy-two, and they ate with Jesus.

The third day Jesus said: "Go to the Mount of Olives with my mother, for there I will ascend again to heaven, and you will see who shall bear me up." So they all went there except twenty-five of the seventy-two disciples, who for fear had fled to Damascus. And as they all stood in prayer, at midday Jesus came with a great multitude of angels who were praising God: and the splendour of his face made them greatly afraid and they fell with their faces to the ground. But Jesus lifted them up, comforting them, and saying: "Do not be afraid, I am your master."

And he reproved many who believed that he had died and risen again, saying: "Do you hold me and God for liars? I said to you that God has granted to me to live almost to the end of the world. Truly I say to you, I did not die; it was Judas the traitor. Beware, for Satan will make every effort to deceive you. Be my witnesses in Israel, and throughout the world, of all things that you have heard and seen."

And having said this, he prayed God for the salvation of the faithful, and the conversion of sinners and [then], his prayer ended, he embraced his mother, saying: "Peace be to you, my mother. Rest in God who created you and me." And having said this, he turned to his disciples, saying: "May God's grace and mercy be with you." Then before their eyes the four angels carried him up into heaven.


222: Jesus Carried Up to Heaven
After Jesus had departed, the disciples scattered through the different parts of Israel and of the world, and the truth, hated of Satan, was persecuted, as it always is, by falsehood. For certain evil men, pretending to be disciples, preached that Jesus died and rose not again. Others preached that he really died, but rose again. Others preached, and yet preach, that Jesus is the Son of God, among whom is Paul deceived. But we - as much as I have written - we preach to those that fear God, that they may be saved in the last day of God's Judgment. Amen.

END OF THE GOSPEL


Offline adilriaz123

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Asalam ul laykum brother Dawud, even though i agree that Gospel of Barnabas is very vivid and clear in the whole account of crucifixion. The problem i see is that it isn't accepted by the mainstream Christianity. Even if we point out evidence from it. The Christians won't accept on the premise that it isn't from the disciples. I believe what we need to do is look more into the gospels and see what else we can learn that clearly destroys the false belief of the crucifixion. for example we have many verses that pose direct challenge of validity of the crucifixion. Like the  (Deut. 24:16), (Luke 24;39), Matthew 27:16-17, Mark16:9-20(insertions), etc...

Since these can be found within the Mainstream gospel they present a much more of an evidence rather then a Gospel that the mainstream Christianity doesn't accept as their own work of their apostles.

jazakallah

Offline Dawud

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Asalam ul laykum brother Dawud, even though i agree that Gospel of Barnabas is very vivid and clear in the whole account of crucifixion. The problem i see is that it isn't accepted by the mainstream Christianity. Even if we point out evidence from it. The Christians won't accept on the premise that it isn't from the disciples. I believe what we need to do is look more into the gospels and see what else we can learn that clearly destroys the false belief of the crucifixion. for example we have many verses that pose direct challenge of validity of the crucifixion. Like the  (Deut. 24:16), (Luke 24;39), Matthew 27:16-17, Mark16:9-20(insertions), etc...

Since these can be found within the Mainstream gospel they present a much more of an evidence rather then a Gospel that the mainstream Christianity doesn't accept as their own work of their apostles.

jazakallah

alaikom salam, yes but, this text can only be used if a christian ask

what does it means, "it appeared for them so"

this text perfectly explains that part of the ayah in the Qur'an.