Author Topic: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.  (Read 4648 times)

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Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2016, 04:13:34 am »
Quote
....I want to remind all of us that this contradicts Quran....

Wa Alaikum As'salam dear brother Fadi,

Brother, this is a very shallow argument.  It is so shallow that one would be immediately dismissed as not worthy of debating.  I am not saying this about you.  I am only advising you and the reader.

The Glorious Quran is indeed CRYSTAL CLEAR and VERY DETAILED about all of the things that we need for our Salvation, and all of the foundations of Islam.  But Allah Almighty mentioned in many Noble Verses that He left the details for Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, to explain.  Please visit the following link to see the 100s of the Glorious Quran's Moral Code that I personally was able to extract from the Holy Book:

www.answering-christianity.com/quran_moral_code.htm

So it's quite detailed as far as the Moral Code and everything that we need for our Salvation.  The Glorious Quran Commands us to Pray, pay Zakat (Islamic Charity), Fast, perform Hajj (pilgrimage), and many other things.  Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, detailed the times and rules on how to perform them.  You won't find the detailed rules and conditions of Zakat in the Glorious Quran.  You won't find the the detailed rules and conditions for performing Hajj in the Glorious Quran, and so on.

So the details of certain things being left out of the Glorious Quran isn't a contradiction at all.  We just have to know how to read and understand the Glorious Quran when we read It.  That's all.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2017, 09:40:21 am »
As'salamu Alaikum Everyone,

I'd like to consider the following:

1-  Pontus pilot stood between TWO MEN that had the same exact TITLES, i.e., "first" and "last" names; both were called Isa Baraba (Jesus son of his father).  In Arabic and Greek, Jesus is called ISA and IESU.  In Latin, he is called IESUS.  Let us look at what the Bible says:




Setup for Conjecture, the cursed ones indeed were:

The two Jesuses and Pilot:

Matthew 27
16 At that time they had a well-known prisoner whose name was Jesus Barabbas (son of his father, suggests he was a bastard).
17 So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, “Which one do you want me to release to you: Jesus Barabbas, or Jesus who is called the Messiah?”



Since our Jesus was fatherless (his father was not known), then for sure, people also called him  Jesus Barabbas, or at least this would've been his official name during the execution day.  Please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/isaiah_53.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/conversation_i_had_on_crucifixion_lie.htm



2-  Not everyday crucifixion events happened.  So you can imagine with me here that THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE have flocked to witness the event, especially that life back then was quite boring.  No TVs, no internet, no cell phones, no technology.  So, such event would definitely be quite an entertainment for them, and would be worthy to go and see.


3-  So, since the OTHER JESUS, was wanted for murdering Roman soldiers, then you would also agree with me that he was not going to live to see tomorrow!  He was going to die for sure that day.



Survive the Cross = YOU LIVE!

It is also important to know that if one survives the cross, then he can be kept alive and not to be killed, especially if the ruler doesn't want him killed from the first place:

1-  From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Survival:

"Survival
Since death does not follow immediately on crucifixion, survival after a short period of crucifixion is possible, as in the case of those who choose each year as a devotional practice to be non-lethally crucified.

There is an ancient record of one person who survived a crucifixion that was intended to be lethal, but that was interrupted. Josephus recounts: "I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered."[55] Josephus gives no details of the method or duration of the crucifixion of his three friends before their reprieve."




Pilot, his Wife, and the "innocent man":

Contrast this with Pilot and his wife who didn't want Jesus dead:
   
Matthew 27
19 While Pilate was sitting on the judge’s seat, his wife sent him this message: “Don’t have anything to do with that innocent man (innocent man??), for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him.”
.....
24 When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!”

   

So both Pilot and his wife considered our Jesus to be an innocent man.  And Pilot further says that he is innocent from Jesus' blood.  This further proves that if Jesus was alive in the cave, then no one would've wanted him dead.  Instead, they would've all been more than willing to offer him medicine and treatment.



2-  From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Legal_execution:

In today's laws in some of the countries that still use crucifixion for capital punishment, we read:

"Theoretically, crucifixion is still one of the Hadd punishments in Iran.[103][104] If a crucified person were to survive three days of crucifixion, that person would be allowed to live.[105] Execution by hanging is described as follows: "In execution by hanging, the prisoner will be hung on a hanging truss which should look like a cross, while his (her) back is toward the cross, and (s)he faces the direction of Mecca [in Saudi Arabia], and his (her) legs are vertical and distant from the ground."[106]"



3-  From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Japan:

Also, keep in mind that Jesus was only placed for few hours on the cross.  Yet, we have stories from World War II where people actually survived the crucifixion despite being crucified on the cross for many long tens (10s) of hours:

"Crucifixion was used as a punishment for prisoners of war during World War II. Ringer Edwards, an Australian prisoner of war, was crucified for killing cattle, along with two others. He survived 63 hours before being let down."




The Decreed Conjecture!

4-  Putting Islam aside, it seems quite clear that even in the Bible, Allah Almighty has set up this event to cause confusion among the thousands and thousands from the crowd.  So, while OUR JESUS was taken to the cross, the other Jesus was executed.  Both the Bible and the Glorious Quran agree that Jesus was never killed.  And we've seen how the Romans didn't kill those who survive the cross.  Once the execution fails, the condemned to death gets to live.

Keep in mind that both Jesuses also most likely looked very similar.  Both had very long beards and hairs, light or brown skin, dark hair, etc...  Both basically looked Middle Eastern.  So here we have:

1-  Their names are exactly the same.
2-  They were to be executed on the same exact day.
3-  They both had very similar looks, if not even the same, since it is Allah Almighty who planned the whole conjecture.


After all, Allah Almighty did Say in the Glorious Quran:

[022:004] About whom it has been decreed, that he will lead astray anyone who abides by him, and that he will steer his flock straight into the torment of hellfire.

[004:088] Why are ye divided concerning the ungodly into two parties; since God hath overturned them for what they have committed? Will ye direct him whom God hath led astray; since for him whom God shall lead astray, thou shalt find no true path?




Executed on the same exact day??

This couldn't be a coincident.  The two Jesuses were executed on the same exact day??  Not that one was executed in February and the other in September, for example?  Not even in the same month but on two different days?  NO.  They had to stand with Pontus Pilot, with the latter standing in between them, both on the same exact day.

It is very clear that Allah Almighty had set these people up for a DECREED CONJECTURE!


I also would like to repeat the following statement that I said earlier above to brother Fadi:

"Allah Almighty used the word SUBSTITUTE (BADAL) 35 times in 34 Noble Verses throughout the Glorious Quran.  Yet, this Noble Word was never used in Noble Verse 4:157."





5-  You can now see very clearly that the people would start propagating their confusions and mixups.  SOME WOULD SAY HE WAS KILLED, "I saw him".  Others would say: "NO MAN, HE GOT CRUCIFIED".  The roamers were flying left and right among the thousands and thousands of people.  This is where Allah Almighty came to settle the score once and for all by saying:



(a)-  THEY NEITHER KILLED HIM.
(b)-  NOR CRUCIFIED HIM.
(c)-  But it appeared as such to them.



So here, Allah Almighty listed the roamers.  He addressed them.  And He then sums it all up by Saying at the end of the Noble Verse:

(a)-  BUT FOR SURE, THEY NEVER KILLED HIM:


[004:157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

This includes all of the roamers on how he supposedly got killed.  Allah Almighty puts it all to rest by assuring all mankind that Jesus was never killed in anyway, shape or form.  If Jesus was not even there on earth that day, then this last part of the Noble Verse would be more accurate to say something like:




More accurate:

"...they never even touched him."
"...they never seized him."
"...they never even got hold of him."


But no, the Noble Verse says "THEY NEVER KILLED HIM, FOR SURE".  This clearly says that Jesus was there in the event.  Again, I would like to repeat the following statement that I said earlier above to brother Fadi:

"Allah Almighty used the word SUBSTITUTE (BADAL) 35 times in 34 Noble Verses throughout the Glorious Quran.  Yet, this Noble Word was never used in Noble Verse 4:157."





Conjecture by Osama Abdallah?

Absolutely not.  I did not conjecture.  I instead connected the dots.  And the evidence above makes perfect sense and is standing on very solid ground.  And I don't mean to be obnoxious, but I MUST repeat the following statement that I said earlier above to brother Fadi:

"Allah Almighty used the word SUBSTITUTE (BADAL) 35 times in 34 Noble Verses throughout the Glorious Quran.  Yet, this Noble Word was never used in Noble Verse 4:157."

I challenge ALL MUSLIMS to refute this.  Again, please also visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/isaiah_53.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/conversation_i_had_on_crucifixion_lie.htm








The Salafi and Shia:

On a side note, I have one question to those from the salafies and shias, who say that the interpretation of the STUNNING Scientific Miracles of the Glorious Quran are false, because the Hadiths do not say what we say today, then I want to ask them how come your hadiths are silent about Jesus' crucifixion??  You have to conjecture and put out several theories, including "Judas substituted Jesus".

This attitude that if it's not in the hadiths then it's false has no merits.  It is nothing but conjecture and falsehood from the cults that do Islam so much harm:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac11.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/warning.htm



And I further want to renew my challenge to all of the cultists to refute the NUMERICAL MIRACLES in the Glorious Quran, and to also refute the ample definitions that we provided from the dictionaries that thoroughly demonstrate the Glorious Quran's Scientific Miracles:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

Those who attack the Scientific Miracles in the Glorious Quran, NEVER DARE to attack the Numerical Miracles!  I have yet to see one from them step forward and refute these STUNNING MIRACLES.

Cultists can make empty assertions.  But their empty words have no merits and not substance.  And I love how when I make them mad enough, they call me an apostate.  This happened several times before.  Gotta love the emptiness of those people, and how it occurs to them to resort to these name-callings against other Muslims.



Furthermore from www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2445.msg11096.html#msg11096:

I would like everyone to notice the following important points:

1-  Notice how the infidels try to discredit the Glorious Quran's STUNNING Scientific and Numerical Miracles by saying that the Greeks wrote it before.

2-  Of course, they have to resort to big leaps of lies and exaggerations to prove their lies about both the Greeks and the Glorious Quran.

3-  But if you look past their lies and smoke screens, what do you see?  You see that they concede that the Quran indeed contains the Scientific Miracles that they can't refute.




4-  And I have yet to see one monkey from them dare to refute the NUMERICAL MIRACLES.  Here is an example:

It's funny that when I wrote my article about Paul calling GOD Almighty a fool, three Arab stooges from the infidels' team jumped to refute my Arabic analysis.  LOL.  Over a small article, they popped out of the sewage and rushed to "refute me".  You can see the link here:

www.answering-christianity.com/pauls_blasphemy_against_god.htm


Yet, I've had the NUMERICAL MIRACLES for years now, and no rodent ever stepped forward to refute them.  Yeah.  So much for their "refutations" of the Holy Quran's Miracles.  Again, visit the following links and cut all of the BS from your minds:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#main_sections






Islam is the Divine Truth!

Islam is the Divine Truth of GOD Almighty.  Don't let any doomed-to-Hell infidel make you question that, my dear brothers and sisters in Islam.  Be at peace.  The Holy Quran is Perfect and Miraculous.  And most importantly, it is Divine and from Allah Almighty.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline adilriaz123

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2017, 02:20:19 pm »
Asalam ul laykum brothers. I noticed there were 2 points that did not recieve much attention.

1. Who or what is holy ghost.
2. The last supper.

In qura  allah swt, mentions that holy ghost is inspiration and as we know from the event of jesus pbuh birth that the inspiration was sent via angel gabriel a.s.

(Quran 2:97) Say, "Anyone who opposes Gabriel should know that he has brought down this (Quran) into your (muhammad pbuh) heart, in accordance with God's will, confirming previous scriptures, and providing guidance and good news for the believers."

(Quran 16:102) Say, "The Holy spirit has brought it (Quran) down from your Lord, truthfully, to assure those who believe, and to provide a beacon and good news for the submitters."

Srry that was bit off topic but i wanted that to be clear for the viewers.

Part 2

Regarding how the last supper has a big part in this conversation.

Surah al maedah verses 112-115 mention the event of the last supper. As we know Judas was among the believers of jesus a.s. at the moment.

Quran (5:115) Allah said, "Indeed, I will sent it (table cloth from heaven) down  to you, but WHOEVER DISBELIEVES AFTERWARDS from AMONG YOU - then indeed will I PUNISH HIM with a punishment by which I have not punished anyone among the WORLDS."

What does the above ayat indicate?

1. As we know judas was at the last supper and was a former disciple of jesus pbuh.
2. Judas was the only disciple that betrayed jesus pbuh. Bible 18:2 "Now Judas, who BETRAYED HIM, knew the place, because Jesus often met there with his disciples." Till verse 18:8. Which shows only 1 person came back out after Judas went in to get Jesus pbuh. That means it could have only been Judas back because quran says allah swt saved him, also that it appeared to them that it was jesus pbuh.
3. The supposed jesus said "My Lord, My Lord, why have you forsaken me?" God never forsakes a believer or uses him as a example which when we might do something what are we suppose to do in order to get back into god's grace. But this wasn't god's example, allah swt said clearly this is punishment, when allah makes someone example he the almighty says that He (allah swt) forgave him(the prophet or the individual).




Offline adilriaz123

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2017, 02:22:02 pm »
Allah swt and his rasool pbuh knows best i am only posting my findings and understanding and seek forgiveness  from allah swt if i got anything wrong.

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2017, 04:23:39 pm »
Wa Alaikum As'salam akhi Adil Riaz,

Gabriel, peace be upon him, is not the Holy Spirit or Ghost.  This is another area of conjecture done by some Muslims.  Please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/holy_spirit.htm


As to Judas, are you saying that GOD Almighty changed his looks to Jesus?  How would they have crucified Jesus if they didn't arrest him and hand him over to Pilot and then to the soldiers to take him and crucify him?  Judas would've been identified as Jesus.  Now, I know that Allah Almighty is well capable of blinding them and making them think it was Jesus, but none of that is mentioned in the Glorious Quran.  You're adding all of this, akhi. 

Also as I mentioned in the previous post above:

"Allah Almighty used the word SUBSTITUTE (BADAL) 35 times in 34 Noble Verses throughout the Glorious Quran.  Yet, this Noble Word was never used in Noble Verse 4:157."



What is mentioned in the Glorious Quran is that Allah Almighty addressed the two scenarios people thought Jesus was killed on:

1-  Executing him.
2-  Crucifying him.


And then Allah Almighty summed it all up by saying Jesus was never killed in any and all scenarios.  And I did bring from the Bible that Pontus Pilate was standing between TWO JESUS "SON OF HIS FATHER" persons.  Now that would create a lot of confusion, especially when the other Jesus had to be executed for killing Roman soldiers.  I have more reasons to believe this than to believe the conjecture that you mentioned, especially that new discoveries show Judas as a righteous disciple who never betrayed Jesus.

Whether he did or not, you're making a huge leap to say that it was Judas that was placed on the cross akhi.  And again and again, WHERE ARE THE HADITHS in all of this?




Noble Verse 5:115:

[005:111]  "And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Apostle: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to God as Muslims'".

[005:112]  Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear God, if ye have faith."

[005:113]  They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle."

[005:114]  Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O God our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)."

[005:115]  God said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples."


‏5:110 اذ قال الله ياعيسى ابن مريم اذكر نعمتي عليك وعلى والدتك اذ ايدتك بروح القدس تكلم الناس في المهد وكهلا واذ علمتك الكتاب والحكمة والتوراة والانجيل واذ تخلق من الطين كهيئة الطير باذني فتنفخ فيها فتكون طيرا باذني وتبرئ الاكمه والابرص باذني واذ تخرج الموتى باذني واذ كففت بني اسرائيل عنك اذ جئتهم بالبينات فقال الذين كفروا منهم ان هذا الا سحر مبين
‏5:111 واذ اوحيت الى الحواريين ان امنوا بي وبرسولي قالوا امنا واشهد باننا مسلمون
‏5:112 اذ قال الحواريون ياعيسى ابن مريم هل يستطيع ربك ان ينزل علينا مائدة من السماء قال اتقوا الله ان كنتم مؤمنين
‏5:113 قالوا نريد ان ناكل منها وتطمئن قلوبنا ونعلم ان قد صدقتنا ونكون عليها من الشاهدين
‏5:114 قال عيسى ابن مريم اللهم ربنا انزل علينا مائدة من السماء تكون لنا عيدا لاولنا واخرنا واية منك وارزقنا وانت خير الرازقين
‏5:115 قال الله اني منزلها عليكم فمن يكفر بعد منكم فاني اعذبه عذابا لااعذبه احدا من العالمين


There are some issues with your points above regarding this Noble Verse:

1-  The Noble Verse was speaking about all of the disciples of Jesus, and not just one person.

2-  The warning from Allah Almighty came because He, the Almighty, sent down to them a special Sign for them from Him.  So rejecting after this would bring catastrophic consequences on anyone who turns to disbelief after that.

3-  This is similar to the Jews who were turned into pigs and monkies because they violated the Sabbath after the Divine Signs that were shown to them, such as splitting the sea.


I get your point akhi that Judas being a substitute to Jesus would indeed be a punishment that no one in this world ever experienced.  But the Glorious Quran never spoke about any substitute to Jesus, as I thoroughly demonstrated in the link that I gave above.  Again, as I mentioned in the previous post above:

"Allah Almighty used the word SUBSTITUTE (BADAL) 35 times in 34 Noble Verses throughout the Glorious Quran.  Yet, this Noble Word was never used in Noble Verse 4:157."


On the other hand, it would make sense that Allah Almighty used Judas to go through the crucifixion instead of Jesus, since:

1-  He betrayed Jesus.
2-  His punishment would be indeed very unique.

3-  But his unique punishment translating into him being the substitute for Jesus is a big leap, because the Glorious Quran never spoke about Jesus being substituted by anyone. 

4-  So I won't allow myself to force this upon the Holy Quran.


I believe that the TWO JESUSES, and the possible replacement of Judas on the cross, - even though no SUBSTITUTE was mentioned, but I'll accept it for the sake of argument, - would be in harmony together, and would indeed CONFIRM THE GLORIOUS QURAN'S Claims that indeed, it appeared that Jesus:

1-  Was executed.
2-  Was crucified.

In other words, two different deaths were attributed to Jesus that Allah Almighty made the people think that they happened to Jesus.  And indeed, Allah Almighty ALWAYS Knows Best.


Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline adilriaz123

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2017, 06:08:54 pm »
Brother osama im sorry if you nisunderstood what i meant by that, but i do mean that holy spirit is INSPIRATION, in some cases it was in form of gabriel while other cases god directly gave it like how allah swt blew it in into mary a.s. womb. I did not mean to limit the spirit to just gabriel a.s. but i did say it was INSPIRATION. So yes i do agree with you that it comes in many form and no one says it is god. Because in Quran depending on the context it is easy to differenciate that holy spirit or spirit is different in all those cases.

But in regards to Judas, brother allah swt gave us clear warning that if any of you go turn back he will punish them. From what bible told what happen to judas when he went to get jesus pbuh while the soliders waited outside. When he emerged it wasnt judas so they asked the person who he is and they asked if it was jesus of naserath. Meaning the soliders and those among them never seen jesus. Since judas didnt emerge they though it can only be jesus.

But i would like to get more info if you believe this isnt correct i would like to know who was put on the cross. Because in quran it says that they did not crucify him. Meaning the person that was crucify wasnt jesus. Many jews till this day celebrate that they crucified jesus. When in quran allah swt said it was made to look as if they did. Then could mean that was either an illusion or the person on cross was someone else.

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2017, 06:19:10 pm »
Quote
When he emerged it wasnt judas so they asked the person who he is and they asked if it was jesus of naserath. Meaning the soliders and those among them never seen jesus. Since judas didnt emerge they though it can only be jesus.

Very interesting, dear brother.  The Bible also says that all of the disciples fled.  None of them witnessed the crucifixion.  Furthermore, in the newly discovered Gospel of Judas, we see that Jesus asked Judas to betray him:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/04/0406_060406_judas_2.html

Now, this could be to pave the way for Judas to be placed on the cross instead of Jesus.  Sort of like Ali sleeping in Prophet Muhammad's bed when the Prophet fled to Medina with Abu Bakr that night.  I'll investigate this further.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2017, 06:23:34 pm »
Yes that does make alot of sense. But i always feel a cringe when christians say " a new discovery" makes me feel here comes more made up stories.

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Re: A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2017, 07:05:01 am »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers and sisters in Islam,

I have updated the thread above by adding new evidence that states that according to the Roman law, if one survives the crucifixion then he can be allowed to live:

www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2428.msg11210.html#msg11210

More and more evidence that clearly states that Jesus was never killed!

Take care,
Osama Abdallah


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As'salamu Alaikum Everyone,

Pay attention to this:

John 11
11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”
13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.


So basically, Jesus who was created from the Spirit and Word of Allah Almighty could not die.  The worst could happen to him is fall asleep.  Now while the verses are about Lazarus and his death, but notice how Jesus referred to it as only sleeping.  Another sound proof that destroys the lie about Jesus died on the cross.

Now of course, Allah Almighty could destroy Jesus and make him cease to exist.  This is mentioned in the Glorious Quran:

"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against God,  if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things."  (The Noble Quran, 5:17)"

Please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/word_of_god.htm




The Bible is full of lies!

Even the Bible's own theologians and histories in their Bible-commentaries declare that the Bible's books and gospels:

1. Do contain alterations, fables and man-made injections in them.
2. Written by mysterious men.
3. Written by an unknown number of men.
4. Written in unknown places.
5. Written in unknown dates.


For ample proofs, visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/authors_gospels.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac6.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/ac6.htm#paul


Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline adilriaz123

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Asalam ul laykum brother Osama, i looked at the entire passage brother, it dorsn't give any indication that Jesus pbuh is talking about himself but rather Lazerath, because the passage mentions:

12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”


So Jesus isn't talking about himself but Lazeraus as Sleep = Dead.

I don't think this passage is useful to delegitmatise crucifixion, since there is no similarities. Since Jesus pbuh is talking about Lazeraus dying and not himself.

Offline adilriaz123

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Asalam ul laykum here is another interestjng point, Christians point out that even though Crucifixion sounds unjust, it is the Father the Lord sacrifice and with his vast knowledge he sacrificed his son for sins of Mankind.

Now here is another problem. If the Father is the God of both the Old Testament and the New Testament, this logic fails completely due to this verse:

Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin (Deut. 24:16)

Even if Christians claim, well it says dying for the father, but jesus died for our sins, sins of mankind.

Here is another important thing to note, the verse says
 each will die for their own sin

Thus by the logic of the God of the New and Old Testament the crucifixion is illogical.

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Wa Alaikum As'salam dear brother,

I never said that Jesus was talking about himself.  I implied that the fact that Jesus didn't call Lazarus dead, when in fact Lazarus was dead, and only called him asleep further proofs that in Jesus' world Jesus could not have died or been killed through crucifixion, and that even if they were to drive the entire Roman army's swords through Jesus' body, and put him on the cross 100 times, he would still not be killed nor would he die, except by Allah Almighty's Will, - for Jesus when he returns must die a natural death:

[029:057]  All living beings must taste death! Then, towards Us you have to return!

[003:185]  Everyone shall taste death. And only on the Day of Resurrection shall you be paid your wages in full. And whoever is removed away from the Fire and admitted to Paradise, he indeed is successful. The life of this world is only the enjoyment of deception (a deceiving thing).

I hope this helps, Insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline adilriaz123

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Assalam ul laykum brother Osama, indeed there was much use of analygies by Jesus pbuh, the disciples, jews and the Roman. But what is interesting that Jesus pbuh continously states about the disciples "ye, of little faith" and lack of understanding. So this also helps us understand, there testimonies are very weak.