Author Topic: Allah blesses women  (Read 45277 times)

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Offline mokko

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Re: Allah blesses women
« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2012, 05:40:17 am »
Antiaparteid, I feel sad about this thread, because your opponents fell in the trap of sending threats and anathems, instead of focusing on arguments. People should educate themselves to avoid this verbal violence.

You will certainly agree that the situation of women (and slaves, also) improved during the 23 years of Muhammad's mission.
On the other hand, you can agree that building a perfect society in 23 years is humanly impossible.

For example, if you forbid wife-beating overnight, you get mess at homes. An explosion of anarchy. Freedom and responsibility needs education and time. It takes time and practice for people to learn the communication skills necessary to avoid violence (verbal or physical).

When judging Islam, you should look at the whole process, not the endpoint 23 years later.

So I ask you: where is the big deal about Islam? You need a more positive attitude towards the "Islam/women" issue. Maybe you need to change your country, instead of changing your religion. It will have more impact on your life.

For example, in some big cities in some countries (not Western), women walk alone in the night, almost naked, and nobody annoys them. However, streets are not safe for everyone, they remain very dangerous for men: crazy men sometimes attack other men, but never women.(the few Muslim men in these cities do not dare to annoy women, they are too scared for their own safety, and it is a good thing. Anyway, why Muslim men are so bad ? Is it religion, or just frustration?).

However, women in those countries face other issues, that Muslim women do not face: everything has a price, and nothing is perfect. So instead of focusing on theories (religious or otherwise), focus on practice. It was also the Prophet's attitude, and it was wise.

You rejected some parts of what is commonly called "Islam", so what? Is it the end of your journey towards understanding men-women relationships? Maybe you need an in-depth empirical and cross-cultural perspective, instead of focusing your mind on a short experience of 23 years. Would you read be interested by references on the topic?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 05:46:24 am by mokko »

Offline Final Overture

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Re: Allah does not bless women
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2012, 06:31:42 am »
Why do women do salat behind men? It's simple. Men pray to allah; women pray to men. That is why i cannot call myself muslim, anymore.
Men and Women pray to Allah only, you don't really have to show your ignorance.

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The man submits to allah; while the woman submits to the man. The man obeys allah; while the woman obeys the man. The man is blessed by allah; while the woman is blessed by the man. That is why i am not a muslim.

So what if woman obeys the man? Men also have to obey the Prophet, does that mean that they pray to Prophet?

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I am a hypocrit because i do not submit to men. I am a hypocrit because i believed that allah could possibly bless women. I am a hypocrit because i thought there was mercy and hope for women. I am a hypocrit because i thought that women could be independent. I am a woman because i do not believe in adam and eve plus aisha plus this woman and that woman. I am a hypocrit because i don't always agree with men. I am a hypocrit because i am not a bible basher. I am a hypocrit because i love my neighbors as i love myself. I am a hypocrit because i don't search for the bad in other religions. I am a hypocrit because i believe i am strong. I am a hypocrit because i have morals. I am a hypocrit because i believe men and women are equal. I am a hypocrit because i don't believe that men are always right. I am a hypocrit because i think about the well-being of children.

You are a hypocrite, because you show your hypocrisy. That's not very hard to see
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I am a hypocrit because i believe men and women are equal.
Qur'an says the same. Women and men are equal but not similar. I guess, you know the difference.

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The God, Almighty in whom I believe is neither male nor female. My God loves every one of his creations. My God is there for anyone who reaches out to him. My God blesses everyone, male and female, black and white, big and small, young and old, rich and poor, healthy and sickly, big and small, learned and unlettered, those with big faith and those with only little faith. My God is the same to everyone

Hmmm, not.Psalms 5:4 For you are not a God who is pleased with wickedness;
    with you, evil people are not welcome.
5 The arrogant cannot stand
    in your presence.
You hate all who do wrong;
6     you destroy those who tell lies.

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But, allah is very different. Allah only loves men. Allah hates women; and only tolerates them with the man's permission. Allah is a puppet who's master is the man. Allah is the man's ego. Men worship their egos aka allah. The christians worship the flesh; while the muslims (males) worship the male ego. The muslim women also worship the flesh--their muslim males.

What nonsense, have you just said?! Maybe this verse may help you a bit.
"Say, "Indeed, those who invent falsehood about Allah will not succeed."" Qur'an 10:69
«We were the lowest of all people and then Allah gave us glory by Islam, and if we seek glory in anything other that what Allah has given us, Allah will disgrace us.» Umar ibn Khattab

Offline Egyptian

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Re: Allah blesses women
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2012, 07:39:26 am »
Greetings

Antiaparteid, I feel sad about this thread, because your opponents fell in the trap of sending threats and anathems

May be her language "see her expressions with daughter of Islam" could be tolerated in non-religious forum , but we can't simply ,allow such slutty language in Muslim's forum....


the rest of your post ,mokko,is as usual balanced ....  and hope you one day initiate a thread ,attracts me to participate....

wish all the non-Muslims learn your style of how to properly convey their point of view ,without hiding themselves behind a Muslim identity ,nor the licking language of Antiaparteid !...

all the best
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 07:52:22 am by Egyptian »

Offline Antiaparteid

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Re: Allah blesses women
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2012, 08:53:22 am »
Greetings

Antiaparteid, I feel sad about this thread, because your opponents fell in the trap of sending threats and anathems

May be her language "see her expressions with daughter of Islam" could be tolerated in non-religious forum , but we can't simply ,allow such slutty language in Muslim's forum....


the rest of your post ,mokko,is as usual balanced ....  and hope you one day initiate a thread ,attracts me to participate....

wish all the non-Muslims learn your style of how to properly convey their point of view ,without hiding themselves behind a Muslim identity ,nor the licking language of Antiaparteid !...

all the best
what slutty language? I'm not the one fantasying second wives for my husband. I'm not the one who want my husband to double dip me and another woman. I'm not a [censored]. I respect my body. My body is not up for negotiation. I'm a strong woman who can handle all my house chores and my man by myself and give birth to my own children. I'm not useless like many other muslim women who can't do basic things like look after their own men and families without having to resort to polygamy. Polygamy is for women with no self-respect. Even the pagans practiced polygamy! How does polygamy make muslims better than the pagans? You carry on as though polygamy were a commandment. This topic was not about polygamy. But, daughter of islam just had to hijack it with her dirty laundry. She made my whole thread smell like old raw fish. It was disgusting. Then she had to tell me that i was blind. Blind to what? Other women's husbands? How can i go to hell for not advocating polygamy? How can i go to hell for being stupid enough to ever believe that allah could bless women?

Offline Final Overture

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Re: Allah blesses women
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2012, 09:26:15 am »
Quote
How can i go to hell for not advocating polygamy? How can i go to hell for being stupid enough to ever believe that allah could bless women?
Noone said that you go to Hell for it, and no one said that Allah doesn't bless women. "Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer - We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do." (16:97)

Here is the quote from the book called
"WOMEN IN ISLAM VERSUS WOMEN IN THE
JUDAEO-CHRISTIAN TRADITION:

THE MYTH
&
THE REALITY"

BY

Dr. Sherif Abdel Azeem


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Let us now tackle the important question of polygamy. Polygamy is a very ancient practice found in many human societies. The Bible did not condemn polygamy. To the contrary, the Old Testament and Rabbinic writings frequently attest to the legality of polygamy. King Solomon is said to have had 700 wives and 300 concubines (1 Kings 11:3) Also, king David is said to have had many wives and concubines (2 Samuel 5:13). The Old Testament does have some injunctions on how to distribute the property of a man among his sons from different wives (Deut. 22:7). The only restriction on polygamy is a ban on taking a wife's sister as a rival wife (Lev. 18:18). The Talmud advises a maximum of four wives. 51 European Jews continued to practice polygamy until the sixteenth century. Oriental Jews regularly practiced polygamy until they arrived in Israel where it is forbidden under civil law. However, under religious law which overrides civil law in such cases, it is permissible. 52

What about the New Testament? According to Father Eugene Hillman in his insightful book, Polygamy reconsidered, "Nowhere in the New Testament is there any explicit commandment that marriage should be monogamous or any explicit commandment forbidding polygamy." 53 Moreover, Jesus has not spoken against polygamy though it was practiced by the Jews of his society. Father Hillman stresses the fact that the Church in Rome banned polygamy in order to conform to the Greco-Roman culture (which prescribed only one legal wife while tolerating concubinage and prostitution). He cited St. Augustine, "Now indeed in our time, and in keeping with Roman custom, it is no longer allowed to take another wife." 54 African churches and African Christians often remind their European brothers that the Church's ban on polygamy is a cultural tradition and not an authentic Christian injunction.

The Quran, too, allowed polygamy, but not without restrictions:

"If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one" (4:3).

The Quran, contrary to the Bible, limited the maximum number of wives to four under the strict condition of treating the wives equally and justly. It should not be understood that the Quran is exhorting the believers to practice polygamy, or that polygamy is considered as an ideal. In other words, the Quran has "tolerated" or "allowed" polygamy, and no more, but why? Why is polygamy permissible ? The answer is simple: there are places and times in which there are compelling social and moral reasons for polygamy. As the above Quranic verse indicates, the issue of polygamy in Islam cannot be understood apart from community obligations towards orphans and widows. Islam as a universal religion suitable for all places and all times could not ignore these compelling obligations.

In most human societies, females outnumber males. In the U.S. there are, at least, eight million more women than men. In a country like Guinea there are 122 females for every 100 males. In Tanzania, there are 95.1 males per 100 females. 55 What should a society do towards such unbalanced sex ratios? There are various solutions, some might suggest celibacy, others would prefer female infanticide (which does happen in some societies in the world today !). Others may think the only outlet is that the society should tolerate all manners of sexual permissiveness: prostitution, sex out of wedlock, homosexuality, etc. For other societies , like most African societies today, the most honorable outlet is to allow polygamous marriage as a culturally accepted and socially respected institution. The point that is often misunderstood in the West is that women in other cultures do not necessarily look at polygamy as a sign of women's degradation. For example, many young African brides , whether Christians or Muslims or otherwise, would prefer to marry a married man who has already proved himself to be a responsible husband. Many African wives urge their husbands to get a second wife so that they do not feel lonely. 56 A survey of over six thousand women, ranging in age from 15 to 59, conducted in the second largest city in Nigeria showed that 60 percent of these women would be pleased if their husbands took another wife. Only 23 percent expressed anger at the idea of sharing with another wife. Seventy-six percent of the women in a survey conducted in Kenya viewed polygamy positively. In a survey undertaken in rural Kenya, 25 out of 27 women considered polygamy to be better than monogamy. These women felt polygamy can be a happy and beneficial experience if the co-wives cooperate with each other. 57 Polygamy in most African societies is such a respectable institution that some Protestant churches are becoming more tolerant of it. A bishop of the Anglican Church in Kenya declared that, "Although monogamy may be ideal for the expression of love between husband and wife, the church should consider that in certain cultures polygyny is socially acceptable and that the belief that polygyny is contrary to Christianity is no longer tenable." 58 After a careful study of African polygamy, Reverend David Gitari of the Anglican Church has concluded that polygamy, as ideally practiced, is more Christian than divorce and remarriage as far as the abandoned wives and children are concerned. 59 I personally know of some highly educated African wives who, despite having lived in the West for many years, do not have any objections against polygamy. One of them, who lives in the U.S., solemnly exhorts her husband to get a second wife to help her in raising the kids.

The problem of the unbalanced sex ratios becomes truly problematic at times of war. Native American Indian tribes used to suffer highly unbalanced sex ratios after wartime losses. Women in these tribes, who in fact enjoyed a fairly high status, accepted polygamy as the best protection against indulgence in indecent activities. European settlers, without offering any other alternative, condemned this Indian polygamy as 'uncivilised'. 60 After the second world war, there were 7,300,000 more women than men in Germany (3.3 million of them were widows). There were 100 men aged 20 to 30 for every 167 women in that age group. 61 Many of these women needed a man not only as a companion but also as a provider for the household in a time of unprecedented misery and hardship. The soldiers of the victorious Allied Armies exploited these women's vulnerability. Many young girls and widows had liaisons with members of the occupying forces. Many American and British soldiers paid for their pleasures in cigarettes, chocolate, and bread. Children were overjoyed at the gifts these strangers brought. A 10 year old boy on hearing of such gifts from other children wished from all his heart for an 'Englishman' for his mother so that she need not go hungry any longer. 62 We have to ask our own conscience at this point: What is more dignifying to a woman? An accepted and respected second wife as in the native Indians' approach, or a virtual prostitute as in the 'civilised' Allies approach? In other words, what is more dignifying to a woman, the Quranic prescription or the theology based on the culture of the Roman Empire?

It is interesting to note that in an international youth conference held in Munich in 1948 the problem of the highly unbalanced sex ratio in Germany was discussed. When it became clear that no solution could be agreed upon, some participants suggested polygamy. The initial reaction of the gathering was a mixture of shock and disgust. However, after a careful study of the proposal, the participants agreed that it was the only possible solution. Consequently, polygamy was included among the conference final recommendations. 63

The world today possesses more weapons of mass destruction than ever before and the European churches might, sooner or later, be obliged to accept polygamy as the only way out. Father Hillman has thoughtfully recognized this fact, "It is quite conceivable that these genocidal techniques (nuclear, biological, chemical..) could produce so drastic an imbalance among the sexes that plural marriage would become a necessary means of survival....Then contrary to previous custom and law, an overriding natural and moral inclination might arise in favour of polygamy. In such a situation, theologians and church leaders would quickly produce weighty reasons and biblical texts to justify a new conception of marriage." 64

To the present day, polygamy continues to be a viable solution to some of the social ills of modern societies. The communal obligations that the Quran mentions in association with the permission of polygamy are more visible at present in some Western societies than in Africa. For example, In the United States today, there is a severe gender crisis in the black community. One out of every twenty young black males may die before reaching the age of 21. For those between 20 and 35 years of age, homicide is the leading cause of death. 65 Besides, many young black males are unemployed, in jail, or on dope. 66 As a result, one in four black women, at age 40, has never married, as compared with one in ten white women. 67 Moreover, many young black females become single mothers before the age of 20 and find themselves in need of providers. The end result of these tragic circumstances is that an increasing number of black women are engaged in what is called 'man-sharing'. 68 That is, many of these hapless single black women are involved in affairs with married men. The wives are often unaware of the fact that other women are 'sharing' their husbands with them. Some observers of the crisis of man-sharing in the African American community strongly recommend consensual polygamy as a temporary answer to the shortage of black males until more comprehensive reforms in the American society at large are undertaken. 69 By consensual polygamy they mean a polygamy that is sanctioned by the community and to which all the parties involved have agreed, as opposed to the usually secret man-sharing which is detrimental both to the wife and to the community in general. The problem of man-sharing in the African American community was the topic of a panel discussion held at Temple University in Philadelphia on January 27, 1993. 70 Some of the speakers recommended polygamy as one potential remedy for the crisis. They also suggested that polygamy should not be banned by law, particularly in a society that tolerates prostitution and mistresses. The comment of one woman from the audience that African Americans needed to learn from Africa where polygamy was responsibly practiced elicited enthusiastic applause.

Philip Kilbride, an American anthropologist of Roman Catholic heritage, in his provocative book, Plural marriage for our time, proposes polygamy as a solution to some of the ills of the American society at large. He argues that plural marriage may serve as a potential alternative for divorce in many cases in order to obviate the damaging impact of divorce on many children. He maintains that many divorces are caused by the rampant extramarital affairs in the American society. According to Kilbride, ending an extramarital affair in a polygamous marriage, rather than in a divorce, is better for the children, "Children would be better served if family augmentation rather than only separation and dissolution were seen as options." Moreover, he suggests that other groups will also benefit from plural marriage such as: elderly women who face a chronic shortage of men and the African Americans who are involved in man-sharing. 71

In 1987, a poll conducted by the student newspaper at the university of California at Berkeley asked the students whether they agreed that men should be allowed by law to have more than one wife in response to a perceived shortage of male marriage candidates in California. Almost all of the students polled approved of the idea. One female student even stated that a polyganous marriage would fulfil her emotional and physical needs while giving her greater freedom than a monogamous union. 72 In fact, this same argument is also used by the few remaining fundamentalist Mormon women who still practice polygamy in the U.S. They believe that polygamy is an ideal way for a woman to have both a career and children since the wives help each other care for the children. 73

It has to be added that polygamy in Islam is a matter of mutual consent. No one can force a woman to marry a married man. Besides, the wife has the right to stipulate that her husband must not marry any other woman as a second wife. 74 The Bible, on the other hand, sometimes resorts to forcible polygamy. A childless widow must marry her husband's brother, even if he is already married (see the "Plight of Widows" section),regardless of her consent (Genesis 38:8-10).

It should be noted that in many Muslim societies today the practice of polygamy is rare since the gap between the numbers of both sexes is not huge. One can, safely, say that the rate of polygamous marriages in the Muslim world is much less than the rate of extramarital affairs in the West. In other words, men in the Muslim world today are far more strictly monogamous than men in the Western world.

Billy Graham, the eminent Christian evangelist has recognized this fact: "Christianity cannot compromise on the question of polygamy. If present-day Christianity cannot do so, it is to its own detriment. Islam has permitted polygamy as a solution to social ills and has allowed a certain degree of latitude to human nature but only within the strictly defined framework of the law. Christian countries make a great show of monogamy, but actually they practice polygamy. No one is unaware of the part mistresses play in Western society. In this respect Islam is a fundamentally honest religion, and permits a Muslim to marry a second wife if he must, but strictly forbids all clandestine amatory associations in order to safeguard the moral probity of the community." 75 It is of interest to note that many, non-Muslim as well as Muslim, countries in the world today have outlawed polygamy. Taking a second wife, even with the free consent of the first wife, is a violation of the law. On the other hand, cheating on the wife, without her knowledge or consent, is perfectly legitimate as far as the law is concerned! What is the legal wisdom behind such a contradiction? Is the law designed to reward deception and punish honesty? It is one of the unfathomable paradoxes of our modern 'civilised' world.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 09:29:30 am by Final Overture »
«We were the lowest of all people and then Allah gave us glory by Islam, and if we seek glory in anything other that what Allah has given us, Allah will disgrace us.» Umar ibn Khattab

Offline mokko

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Re: Allah blesses women
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2012, 10:02:10 am »
Antiaparteid, you can also note that Muslim men who defend polygamy in debates, or wage war against non-Muslims, are usually not polygamous at all. Actually, they are often single.  They do the "dirty job"so that their leaders could enjoy their harem peacefully.

See the article: "Ten Politically Incorrect Truths About Human Nature"

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200706/ten-politically-incorrect-truths-about-human-nature?page=2


"The surprising answer from the evolutionary psychological perspective is that Muslim suicide bombing may have nothing to do with Islam or the Koran (except for two lines in it). It may have nothing to do with the religion, politics, the culture, the race, the ethnicity, the language, or the region. As with everything else from this perspective, it may have a lot to do with sex, or, in this case, the absence of sex.

What distinguishes Islam from other major religions is that it tolerates polygyny. By allowing some men to monopolize all women and altogether excluding many men from reproductive opportunities, polygyny creates shortages of available women. If 50 percent of men have two wives each, then the other 50 percent don't get any wives at all.

So polygyny increases competitive pressure on men, especially young men of low status. It therefore increases the likelihood that young men resort to violent means to gain access to mates. By doing so, they have little to lose and much to gain compared with men who already have wives. Across all societies, polygyny makes men violent, increasing crimes such as murder and rape, even after controlling for such obvious factors as economic development, economic inequality, population density, the level of democracy, and political factors in the region.
"

Offline Egyptian

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Re: Allah blesses women
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2012, 10:38:23 am »



dear mokko ,just wanted to make simple comment

What distinguishes Islam from other major religions is that it tolerates polygyny.

the bible tolerates polygamy as well ....  there is a full christian site dedicated to support polygamy

http://www.biblepolygamy.com/

regards

Offline Antiaparteid

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Re: Allah blesses women
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2012, 12:15:08 pm »
I have, while still catholic, read the bible from genesus to revelation.

Since i had abandoned christianity to be "muslim", i haven't read the bible, except for verses quoted online.

I don't care what the bible says about polygamy. Christians, and their deeds are not my problem.

I just meant to state how "allah blesses women", but i regret what has become of this topic. This topic has meant my persecution.

Mokko, you are a very sensible man. You got me thinking that maybe Egyptian and Final Overture might be single. They have to be--what married man would have the time to do what they have been?

I believe that love is an important part of marriage. When you love your spouse, you don't look for a replacement or auxiliary when they get bed-ridden. When you love your spouse, you don't try to lessen your burden by looking for a second wife; you understand that marriage is a job made for one woman; marriage is not an assembly line; marriage is artistry; marriage can be a masterpiece by one woman. When you love someone you don't judge him by his bank account; marriage is not for convenience; two people can work together to build an empire; and if you fail--so what? When you love someone you stick by their side thru the flood and drought; you work on your marriage, even as peasants. When you love your spouse, even after aging, or sickness or injury or faded beauty, you remember that they are still the same in spirit; you see the  person you first felt in love with even behind their wrinkles.

I could go on and on...and on... You get the point...if you know what love is.

But, many muslim don't know the meaning of the word. They cannot get it (love) around their heads, or in their hearts. In islam love is not a requisite for marriage. Marriage is just about a dower and...hmm, that's about it. It's very sad for me. But, maybe I'm just being sentimental. Mothers are not even required to love their children. In many cases, they breast-feed their kids for monetry compensation. How would you feel to know that your mother only mothered you because she was being paid. Thankfull, their are plenty of muslim mothers who love their children dearly over and above what is required by sharia law. It's also good to know that their are muslim couples who love each other dearly and unconditionally.

For the single guys who spend their lonely lives defending polygamy: don't worry inshalla you'll have a hot wife (or 4) and precious children to keep you occupied.

I actually live in a free country. I'm free to do what i like as long as i don't break the laws. So, i didn't start this thread out of frustration. I'm free. It just irritates me when muslim women, out of desperation for food parcels, go to madrassa, to be indoctrinated into believing that they are useless without men--even jobless, drunkard men. These women are already suffering from low levels of motivation, but these muslim institutions don't address the causes of these social dysfunctions. All they do is hand out food parcels. And, the only way for these literally poor muslim women to get those food parcels, is to attend regular madrassa during working hours, so they can't even have jobs. Even in this free country, muslim women indoctrinated like this don't finish school, don't live decent lives. These women are talked into marrying foreign men to secure a home and food. These women don't even get dowers. Many of them still have to rely on state social grants, because their husbands don't work to support them.

So, was it wrong for me to have hope for them--hope that allah can be gracious to such women?

Offline Final Overture

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Re: Allah blesses women
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2012, 07:53:23 am »
I have, while still catholic, read the bible from genesus to revelation.
Good one.
Quote
I just meant to state how "allah blesses women", but i regret what has become of this topic. This topic has meant my persecution.

So, what was the necessity of starting the thread? Everyone knows that Allah blesses women, and that the believers - both men and women - will be in Paradise. Qur'an 4:124 And whoever does righteous deeds, whether male or female, while being a believer - those will enter Paradise and will not be wronged, [even as much as] the speck on a date seed.

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In islam love is not a requisite for marriage
It is.

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So, was it wrong for me to have hope for them--hope that allah can be gracious to such women?
Really? Allah is gracious.
Qur'an 2:136 And your god is one God. There is no deity [worthy of worship] except Him, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.


So, I want to see what you will say on these:
Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
Messenger of Allah () said, "The believers who show the most perfect Faith are those who have the best behaviour, and the best of you are those who are the best to their wives". Riyad as-Salihin Book 1' Hadith 278

And the similar one:

"Abu Hurairah narrated that The Messenger of Allah said:
“The most complete of the believers in faith, is the one with the best character among them. And the best of you are those who are best to your women.” (Hasan)

Jami` at-Tirmidhi Vol. 1, Book 7, Hadith 1162
« Last Edit: September 24, 2012, 02:13:36 pm by Final Overture »
«We were the lowest of all people and then Allah gave us glory by Islam, and if we seek glory in anything other that what Allah has given us, Allah will disgrace us.» Umar ibn Khattab

Offline RamziBinNabil

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Re: Allah blesses women
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2012, 12:23:17 pm »
May peace and Allah's blessings be upon you all! Do you know that nowadays in the West they are getting most of the laws of inheritance from the Glorious Qur'an itself. In addition, Islam gave women a higher status than they were ever given in all of history up until the present day! All praises and thanks are due to Allah the Almighty for making us from amongst the nation of Prophet Muhammad (may Almighty Allah bless him and grant him peace).

Offline mokko

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Re: Allah blesses women
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2012, 03:58:55 am »
the bible tolerates polygamy as well ....  there is a full christian site dedicated to support polygamy

http://www.biblepolygamy.com/

regards

yes, but I guess that the author of the article referred to practice by Christians. And of course, the author is wrong, because there are other religions that tolerate polygyny.

maybe he simply meant: "Islam is the most famous religion where you still find many adherents who defend polygyny".

the point of the author is partly false: today, the practice of polygyny is marginal in arab countries. however, sexual frustration is very important, and the author is correct to connect this frustration with violence. there are plenty of examples not related to religion (see for example the fury over the football match egypt-algeria, etc..).

Offline mokko

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Re: Allah blesses women
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2012, 04:36:27 am »
So, was it wrong for me to have hope for them--hope that allah can be gracious to such women?

Your intention was certainly good. However, the result might still be partly wrong, and people on this forum can tell you why.

1. the fate of those women could be sad indeed, but the fate of single and career-oriented women in the West is equally sad. Muslim women with families often show a symmetric compassion for their "professionally successful" sisters in the West. In all countries, it is hard to combine career and family.


2. Even in the West, most people are just realistic: marriage is not about love, it is about building a family. It is a job like others (sometimes equally boring). In real life, Western people do not live in their soap operas and telenovelas. Their pragmatism and lack of romantism can be a shock for people who know the West only through television (but now, with internet, reality emerges..).

3. The Muslim female question is always understood with the background of cultural imperialism. Western people will always get the "clean your own backyard first" reaction, even if the Muslim backyard is also not very clean.


Offline mokko

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Re: Allah blesses women
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2012, 12:50:10 pm »
For the single guys who spend their lonely lives defending polygamy: don't worry inshalla you'll have a hot wife (or 4) and precious children to keep you occupied.

You complained of being persecuted, but now, it is irresponsible to use your little power to persecute others. Knowing that Muslim man supremacy is only a "tiger of paper" should not turn you into a bully.

In Muslim countries, women on streets get harrassed because men feel "bullied" by female appearance, and they try to overcome this feeling of vulnerability by getting aggressive (something women usually do not understand, they get scared and ignore that the man was actually interested). This lack of confidence on both sides is a source of this misunderstanding, I think.

When Muslim women respect male sensitivity, they will no longer need hijabs and niqabs to go out (btw, the Quran explicitly refers to female harrassment when dealing with female covering).

Offline Antiaparteid

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Re: Allah blesses women
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2012, 09:38:36 am »
In Muslim countries, women on streets get harrassed because men feel "bullied" by female appearance,

Please explain how a man can feel "bullied" by a woman's appearance.

 
and they try to overcome this feeling of vulnerability by getting aggressive

When Muslim women respect male sensitivity, they will no longer need hijabs and [...]

I have to disagree with the above. I think [bold] muslim men [/bold] should take responsiblity for their actions, and learn to control their actions. The muslim governments must toughen laws against those harassers. We need sharia-reforms that will protect women--and their freedom to dress and act as provocatively as they please. 

Offline mokko

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Re: Allah blesses women
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2012, 03:51:26 am »
Please explain how a man can feel "bullied" by a woman's appearance.

When you get repeatedly turned-on, without being able to succumb to this temptation. It is a torture. It is Tantalus's punishment.

You can exercise self-control on moderate levels of temptation, but beyond some point, it becomes impossible. You cannot build a society by repressing desire. This energy has to flow somewhere. It is better to channel this energy in constructive ways, instead of desperately trying to suppress it with harsh and violent laws (or inner codes of conduct). What did they achieve with this brutal method? In my opinion, just frustration and unhappiness.

In most non-Muslim countries (in the West and elsewhere), they do not need these repressive laws. They distinguish between harrassment and legitimate courtship. In those countries, women have the right to attract men with provocative dress, and they enjoy being respectfully (but confidently) approached and complimented. They also have the right to decline sollicitations (more or less politely) from unwanted approaches, and rejected men silently move on to the next. And life goes on for everyone.

There are many problems associated with this more liberal way of life, but in practice, Muslim societies have certainly not found the solution to them.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 03:59:56 am by mokko »