Author Topic: My 1st study "Origin of christianity,NT quoutations of the OT is the key"  (Read 71997 times)

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Offline Egyptian

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I think the previous points are the important outline of  how the Jews viewed the promised messiah to be .....
The following are additional detailed points on the picture of the messiah before Jesus ,quoted from the greatest and most valuable work on the topic of messiah (THE MESSIAH Developments in Earliest Judaism and Christianity by James H. Charlesworth, ), read them if you are interested for academic details ,or skip them and follow reading the topic...


Quote from: James H. Charlesworth, The Messiah Developments in Earliest Judaism and Christianity
1- Besides the Old Testament, We have numerous early Jewish sources that portray the Messiah, variously,as one who will serve as the eschatological high priest (the Dead SeaScrolls, the T12P), or as the consummate benevolent and all-powerful king(PssSol 17). Numerous functions are sometimes attributed to the Messiah:He will judge the wicked (PssSol 17, 4Ezra 12, 2Bar 40), destroy them(PssSol 17, 18; 4Ezra 12, 2Bar 72; c f Isa 11), deliver God's people (PssSol17, 4Ezra 12; c f Zech 9), and/or reign in a blessed kingdom (PssSol 17, 18;2Bar 40; c f Ps 2).

2 - Old Testament expectations of a new David are probably to be understood in terms of a continuing Davidic line. There is little indication that any of these prophets envisioned a final Davidic ruler who would actually rule for all time to come,thus obviating the need for the continuation of the dynastic line. The language of some of the prophecies is open to that interpretation, and such a reading was eventually given to them, but such passages as Jer 33:14-26 and Ezekiel 4 0 - 4 8 indicate that the dynastic understanding was the dominant interpretation of such promises as late as the exihc period, and the repeated references to  "the house of David," in Third Zechariah (Zech12:7-12; 13:1) suggest that this interpretation remained dominant well into the postexilic period.

3- The new Jerusalem is far more prominent in prophetic visions of the future than the Davidic king, but such eschatological hopes are not specifically messianic.

4- There are number of passages as not really envisioning a future king in their original contexts, Once the expectation of a new Davidic king became an important hope in large circles of the Israelite people, these passages would be subject to eschatological reinterpretation, to new readings that were genuinely prophetic.

5 - The later expectations of a priestly Messiah can be traced back to the promises of the restoration of the priesthood found in Jeremiah 33 and in Zechariah's oracles concerning the high priest Joshua.



Offline Egyptian

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Quote from: James H. Charlesworth, The Messiah Developments in Earliest Judaism and Christianity

6- analysing the Enthronement Texts ,we find out The mythological language of the royal protocol,influenced as it was by Egyptian conceptions of the royal office, provided a textual base for the development of later, far more mythological conceptions of the awaited Messiah. Though strong mythological component, the language was understood in the enthronement ceremony, Ps 2:7 speaks of God giving birth to the king; Ps 110:3, though textually difficult, also appears to refer to the divine birth of the king; and Isa 9:5-6, after referring to the king's birth, assigns divine qualities to the king in the series of names that are given to him. These names in Isa 9 : 5 -6 are best explained as royal names given to the new king in the coronation ceremony on the analogy of the five royal names given the new Pharaoh in the Egyptian enthronement ceremony,' and this suggests a strong Egyptian influence on the Judean coronation ritual. This influence may go back to the formative period of the Israelite State when Egyptian influence was quite strong. As is well known, Solomon married a daughter of the Pharaoh (IKgs 3:1; 7:8; 9:16), and even  David appears to have adopted Egyptian models for many of the high offices in his empire.« In any case, the Egyptian influence on the Israelite royal ceremony brought with it the strongly mythological language of the Egyptian royal protocol. This language was probably not taken literally in the Israelite court—the language of divine sonship, for instance, was presumably understood in Israel as adoptive sonship—but once this mythological language had been deposited and preserved in texts whose original roots in particular court ceremonies were forgotten, the possibility for new, literalistic readings of this mythological language arose. Much of the mythological dimension in the later messianic expectations can be traced back to the remythologization of this borrowed mythological language of the royal protocol.

7- Under the chapter, MESSIAHS AND MESSIANIC FIGURES IN PROTO-APOCALYPTICISM :
The period extending from the Exile to the time of Ezra and Nehemiah was one of transition within the religious and political structures of the Jewish people. This was certainly true of programs and visions of cultic and national restoration, for the clash between traditional forms and contemporary realities placed a great strain upon attempts to formulate plans for the future.
Haggai could promise that once the Temple had been restored,God would secure all aspects of peace, from fertility of the land (Hag 2:18-19) to safety from enemy hostilities (Hag 2:20-22).

8- Analyzing (Ezek 37:24-28; 43:18-27).(Zech 4:14).Zech 6:9 etc.....
after detailed analysis to such texts he concludes :
those traditions stemming from the Exile and the early Second Temple Period which later were drawn into various types of messianic speculation originally arose within a Situation rife with tension and change. All of the groups involved sought to explain the contradiction between a corporate identity understood in terms of a people living under God's rule and the experience of living under the sovereignty of a pagan emperor Given the co-existence of rival claims to leadership informed by different backgrounds and party affiliations, it is not surprising that the eschatological traditions arising from the period are characterized by wide diversity.Though the subsequent interpretation and reapplication of these traditions developed quite independently of their original meaning and setting,an awareness of origins is the proper starting point for the study of the history of interpretation of all traditions. The traditions developing the messianic themes discussed throughout this volume are no exception.



Offline Egyptian

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Quote from: James H. Charlesworth, The Messiah Developments in Earliest Judaism and Christianity

9- concluding the chapter MESSIANOLOGY IN EARLY JUDAISM AND EARLY RABBINICS :

In this authoritative compilation of Jewish laws that determine the individual's and the community's way of life,the Messiah as a supernatural or eschatological figure does not make an appearance. The figure of messiah remains rooted in sociopolitical realities—viz. in the realities of post-70 Judaism."' There is hardly a trace of a utopian superstructure. Viewed against the backdrop of later configurations of the messianic idea in Judaism, and the more so in Christianity, we may indeed define that phenomenon with W D. Davies' "a paradoxical messianism."'It may be surmised that this inherent realism caused those Jewish sources not to offer a particularized description of the messianic age. Due to its predominant restorative thrust the future eon is in essence conceived as a vastly improved replica of a Status experienced in the past which is imprinted in the collective memory. Therefore it does not stand in need of being spelled out in detail. The messianic era is not characterized by a total revamping of man's nature and societal structures, nor of the Constitution of the universe. Rather it is seen as a sublime reenactment of the favorable conditions which obtained in the idealized period of the united monarchy under David and Solomon.
The memory of those days inspired later biblical writers, and upon it they modeled their vision of the future. In doing so they drew explicidy on past experience:Was it not this that YHWH proclaimed through the prophets of old, while Jerusalem was populous and peaceful, as were the cities around her, and the Negeb and the Shephelah?. . . These are the words of YHWH I will rescue my people from the countries of the east and the west, and bring them back to live in Jerusalem . . . [unlike] before that time . . . [when] no one could go about his affairs in peace because of enemies . . . but now . . .there shall be sowing in peace, the vine shall yield its fruit and the seil its produce . . . with all these things I will endow the survivors of this people.You, house of Judah and house of Israel, . . . I will save you, and you shall become the symbol of a blessing. Courage! Do not be afraid. (Zech 7:7-8:13,cf. Gen 12:2-3)



Offline Egyptian

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now we are on our way to investigate the next step of exposing the origin of Christianity ....    From Judaism to Christianity or FROM MESSIANOLOGY TO CHRISTOLOGY,THE PROBLEM ?

After we examined objectively,using the whole Jewish sources before Jesus ,the term of the Messiah as thought to be ,as an Earthly king who would get the Davidic monarchy back and getting back the Jews  etc.......

Though the writers of the gospel included the traditions of calling Jesus a prophet ,yet they felt it wasn't sufficient weight to embody the significance of Jesus,Though the writers of the gospel included the traditions of calling Jesus a prophet ,yet they felt it wasn't sufficient weight to embody the significance of Jesus,their vain desires and hopes motivated them to claim that Jesus is that Davidic king messiah,son of God.

Matthew 1:1 This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David.
Matthew 2:4 When he had called together all the people’s chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Messiah was to be born.
Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Mark 27 Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, “Who do people say I am?” 28 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.” 29 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.”

.Is there a problem ,that the writers of the New testament calls Jesus the promised king messiah ,the seed of David ? yes, actually there are gross problems with that concept !!!

By comparing what Jesus said ,did (according to the narratives of the new testament ) and what is believed by the Jews as the Qualifications for the king messiah ,as based on the text of the Old Testament ,one find out easily that the picture of Jesus in the New testament is radically different from that hoped-for Davidic ,royal messiah !........

none of the events prophecised of the so called king messiah occurred during the lifetime of Jesus (nor have they occurred afterwards)..

Jesus lived while the Second Temple was standing, and not while the Jews were exiled. He never reigned as King, and there was no subsequent era of peace or great knowledge. Jesus departed without completing or even accomplishing part of any of the messianic tasks. Rather than being redeemed, the Jews were subsequently exiled from Israel.

Maimonides"one of the most prolific and followed Torah scholars" states, "But if he did not succeed in all this or was killed, he is definitely not the Messiah promised in the Torah."
and
"Even Jesus the Nazarene who imagined that he would be Messiah and was killed by the court, was already prophesied by Daniel. So that it was said, “And the members of the outlaws of your nation would be carried to make a (prophetic) vision stand. And they stumbled” (Daniel 11.14). Because, is there a greater stumbling-block than this one? So that all of the prophets spoke that the Messiah redeems Israel, and saves them, and gathers their banished ones, and strengthens their commandments. And this one caused (nations) to destroy Israel by sword, and to scatter their remnant, and to humiliate them, and to exchange the Torah, and to make the majority of the world err to serve a divinity besides God."
...............

the writers of the New Testament redefined the term king messiah , They were  zealously motivated to include him in the king messiah category ..... may be some of them were disappointed by the Jewish propaganda that they killed Jesus ,and shifted their hope of him as the king messiah to a prophet but others modified the term davidic king messiah to fit a slaughtered messiah ...
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 05:09:50 pm by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

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As Wayne A. Meeks:Woolsey "Professor of Biblical Studies Yale University" notes:

Quote from: Wayne A. Meeks:Woolsey
"They couldn't go away as they were supposed to ... have to deal with that fundamental question, - what does this mean that the one that we had all of these expectations about has been crucified? How do we deal with this, not merely the end of this life, but the shameful end of this life? And, the amazing thing is, they said, "Hey, Pilate's right - he was the King of the Jews, and moreover, God has vindicated this claim, that he is the King of the Jews, by raising him from the dead." Now, this is where the Jesus movement properly understood, which is to become Christianity, begins, with trying to explain that hard fact.... And so the early Christians, as proper Jews, they begin to search the scriptures, [looking for] what clues are hidden here which no one has noticed before.... They begin to find promises in scripture of an anointed king who will come at the end of days, a notion which they share with many other Jews, at the same time. So, this is where it all begins, with this kind of interpretive process, which of course goes in many different directions."

Those words are not conjecture or assumptions, we have the new testament and the old testament within our hands, and we can easily compare both .....to find out how the writer of the new testament misused it and imposed Jesus on it.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 04:12:38 pm by Egyptian »

Offline Final Overture

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Hm, good article, but i will read it later, inshaAllah  ;D
«We were the lowest of all people and then Allah gave us glory by Islam, and if we seek glory in anything other that what Allah has given us, Allah will disgrace us.» Umar ibn Khattab

Offline Egyptian

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welcome Brother Final Overture ,and I will be pleased for any comment ,correction.


we knew that before the mission of Jesus , generally the Jews thought the messiah would be a warrior who would drive out the roman occupiers; some others saw the messiah as a heavenly being and others expected him to be a great priest. yet no prove that any Jew expected that the messiah would be a crucified criminal.

so what happened? why Those writers of the new testament ,digested the idea of a crucified messiah? Were they paid to make such propaganda for a crucified messiah?!  Not at all ...

all what happened is that they after receiving the Jewish propaganda that they killed Jesus ,they searched the old testament for some passages that would explain the current events , Is it possible that the messiah be killed? they asked themselves!!......

They came to see Jesus as the messiah in spite of his execution after their reading of passages in the Jewish scriptures that talk about one of Cod's righteous ones suffering for the sins of others (cf. Isaiah 53: Psalm 22) S. These passages don't explicitly refer to the Messiah but those Christians claimed they did. they reasoned that Jesus' death must have had a divine purpose and concluded that Jesus death was the way God deals with sin.... it brought a right relationship with God.
still remained another problem for their new theory ,If the  true Messiah die,then how about the events that must accompany his arrival according to prophecy? eg; the arrival of Elijah , during his era all the Israelites will be returned to their homeland ,  Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel ,the whole world will worship the One God of Israel , death will be swallowed up forever , There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease, All of the dead will rise again... etc  etc ?

They solved that problem by two strategies:

1- Searching the old testament for some verses to quote and be included in their writings, that they believed, would show some significance for the traditions they received regarding Jesus and the present society they lived in.
It seems that they did the opposite as well "historicizing The old testament prophecies" ,some UN-historical elements of the Gospels appear to be based on the the Hebrew scripture .
in other words ,  as Neil Godfrey describes: The gospels were theological constructions built on Old Testament and other stories as a result of a need for some 'biographical' narrative to illustrate an emerging Christian sect rooted in mysticism and other theological and philosophical roots in both the Diaspora Jews and Hellenistic philosophy.....

« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 07:56:03 pm by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

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2- Devising the belief of a first century second coming of Jesus , they conceded that the arrival of Jesus did not usher in that which was predicted and his credentials seem tarnished, but another appearance will rectify the situation. What wasn't fulfilled the first time will be completed during his second time around.
leading New Testament scholar, Bart Ehrman :

Quote from:  Bart Ehrman
The one thing we
know about the Christians after the death of Jesus is that they turned to their scriptures to try and make sense of it. They had believed Jesus was the Messiah, but then he got crucified, and so he couldn’t be the Messiah. No Jew, prior to Christianity, thought that the Messiah was to be crucified. The Messiah was to be a great warrior or a great king or a great judge. He was to be a figure of grandeur and power, not somebody who’s squashed by the enemy like a mosquito. How could Jesus, the Messiah, have been killed as a common criminal? Christians turned to their scriptures to try and understand it, and they found passages that refer to the Righteous One of God’s suffering death. But in these passages, such as Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 and Psalm 61, the one who is punished or who is killed is also vindicated by God. Christians came to believe their scriptures that Jesus was the Righteous One and that God must have vindicated him. And so Christians came to think of Jesus as one who, even though he had been crucified, came to be exalted to heaven, much as Elijah and Enoch had in the Hebrew scriptures.How can he be Jesus the Messiah though, if he’s been exalted to heaven? Well, Jesus must be coming back soon to establish the kingdom. He wasn’t an earthly Messiah; he’s a spiritual Messiah. That’s why the early Christians thought the end was coming right away in their own lifetime. That’s why Paul taught that Christ was the first fruit of the resurrection. But if Jesus is exalted, he is no longer dead, and so Christians started circulating the story of his resurrection. It wasn’t three days later they started circulating the story; it might have been a year later, maybe two years. Five years later they didn’t know when the stories had started. Nobody could go to the tomb to check; the body had decomposed. Believers who knew he had been raised from the dead started having visions of him. Others told stories about these visions of him, including Paul. Stories of these visions circulated. Some of them were actual visions like Paul, others of them were stories of visions like the five hundred group of people who saw him. On the basis of these stories, narratives were constructed and circulated and eventually we got the Gospels of the New Testament written 30, 40, 50, 60 years later.


The way they applied such strategies ,is the best chance for us to investigate the truthfulness,legitimacy and status of those writers and Christianity .....

when it comes to the first previously mentioned strategy, objective study to their writing would expose their misleading quotations ,their misuse of the old testament ... they selected some of old testament passages and tried to convince the readers, that those passages were predictions of Jesus' life and mission, while in fact ,they are nothing but misquotations, non-quotes, and misinterpretations.

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before we visit the old and new testament analyzing those passages ,we would quote some scholars who noted such serious problem ,that shakes the foundations of Christianity ,and destroy the concept that the new testament is divinely inspired and not a human made collection of some of the true words of Jesus accompanied by false traditions,misleading exegesis.


Dennis McKinsey ,Author of "The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy" and  "Biblical Errancy (A Referance Guide)".wrote

« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 08:02:15 pm by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

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Quote from: ACCOMMODATIONS ,Dennis McKinsey
One of the most egregious violations of intellectual integrity by the founders of Christianity is shown by their gross distortions of the OT for purposes of indoctrination. In their never-ending quest for religious legitimacy and status, they have not hesitated to twist, distort, pervert, and concoct OT verses as expediency dictated. Here, as much as anywhere else in the Bible, the true colors of the creators of Christianity come through in all their radiant splendor. Examples of their perfidious display of propagandistic propensities are abundantly evident to anyone with a reasonably critical eye.


Quote from: MESSIANIC PROPHECIES  ,Dennis McKinsey
With the possible exception of eschatology (biblical predictions of what is to come) in no area of scripture does the Christian imagination wander more wildly and irresponsibly than in that of messianic prophecy (OT predictions of the coming Messiah). Christian apologists have diligently searched the OT for any verse, any text, any word, that could possibly be twisted, distorted, or perverted in such a manner as to link Jesus with the foretold Messiah. With what can only be described as reckless abandon, they have interpreted sizable portions of the OT for purely partisan theological purposes. Regardless of relativity, anything and everything of a positive or uplifting nature has been depicted as a type or harbinger of Jesus and everything of a negative, but equally applicable import, has been ignored or minimized. Hundreds of verses have been interpreted either literally or figuretively, as conditions dictate, with little regard for context or original intent. Except in the arena of eschatology, here, more than anywhere else, the full breadth and depth of Christian duplicity rears its ugly head. Perversion, prevarication, and pathetic prognostication are only some of the descriptive terms one could apply to their strategy of deception. "Everything in the Jewish books is perverted and distorted into meanings never intended by the writers." ("Examination of the Prophecies", The Life and Works of Paine, Vol. 9, p. 241) and "...whoever will take the trouble to read attentively, will find in all those passages where the OT is cited, only an obvious abuse of words, and the seal of falsehood on almost every page" (Voltaire on Religion by Ken Applegate, p. 147). Interestingly enough, apologists rely heavily and freely upon the very tactic--taking out of context--which they so readily attribute to their opponents. As Paine said, "The practise which the writers of the books (gospels--Ed.) employ is not more false than it is absurd. They state some trifling case of the person they call Jesus Christ, and then cut out a sentence from some passage of the OT and call it a prophecy of that case. But when the words thus cut out are restored to the places they are taken from, and read with the words before and after them, they give the lie to the NT" (The Life and Works of Paine, Vol. 9, p. 269).
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 08:26:12 pm by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

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Quote from: MESSIANIC PROPHECIES  ,Dennis McKinsey
Not long ago we heard a debate in which a noted fundamentalist contended Jesus had to be the Messiah because no one else could fulfill so many of the OT prophecies. From his perspective there was no one else who could "fill the bill." A few of the prophecies may fit certain individuals but no one else could fit so many. The odds were just too great. Josh McDowell expressed the attitude typical of most apologists when he said, "Now the OT was written over a period of a thousand years and contains over 333 messianic prophecies....all of the prophecies that were fulfilled in one person, Jesus Christ, were written down at least 400 years before he was born because the OT was completed around 450-400 B.C...there are 60 major prophecies and 270 ramifications, all fulfilled in one person, Jesus Christ....Let's apply the modern science of probability. For only 48 of these prophecies to be fulfilled in any one individual using the modern science of probability, is one in every 1 X 10 to the 157th power. That means 157 zeroes" (Evidence for Faith, Practical Apologetics by Josh McDowell, pages 159 & 161). The importance of this entire field lies not only in its alleged "proof" that Jesus is the long-sought Savior of the world but in the constant reliance upon accurate biblical prophecy as proof of the Bible's uniqueness. As the apologist in the debate said with reference to the Bible's predictive accuracy in general, "There aren't that many atoms in the universe." In other words, pure mathematics not only proves Jesus is the Messiah but the Bible is God's Word. No other book even comes close to having so many accurate prophecies; at least that's the theory. When asked how their book differs from the writings of the Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., the most common reply by biblicists is that the Bible contains hundreds of accurate prophecies which the others lack. The ability to predict the future is seen as proof that the Bible alone is God's word because only God knows the future.
So what's the problem biblicists ask. The problem is quite simple. Not one of the prophecies cited clearly pertains to Jesus. The entire messianic structure is built on conjecture, speculation, and interpolation. Ingersoll stated. "There is no prophecy in the OT foretelling the coming of Jesus Christ. There is not one word in the OT referring to him in any way--not one word. The only way to prove this is to take your Bible, and wherever you find these words; 'That it might be fulfilled' and 'which was spoken' turn to the OT and find what was written, and you will see that it had not the slightest possible reference to the thing recounted in the NT--not the slightest" (Ingersoll's Works, Vol. 5, p. 277). Because this topic is of such importance to the Bible's validity in general and the messiahship of Jesus in particular, an all but exhaustive critique of the "Messianic prophecies" is in order.
.....

Farrell Till (ex-christian missionary and preacher),wrote:


Quote from:  Farrell Till (PROPHECIES: IMAGINARY AND UNFULFILLED).
Usually, Bible "prophecies" turn out to be prophecies only because imaginative Bible writers arbitrarily declared them to be prophecies. The same can be said of their alleged fulfillments: the fulfillments are fulfillments only because obviously biased New Testament writers arbitrarily declared them to be fulfillments.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 08:04:02 pm by Egyptian »

Offline Final Overture

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You don't believe Jesus is the Messiah?! :o
«We were the lowest of all people and then Allah gave us glory by Islam, and if we seek glory in anything other that what Allah has given us, Allah will disgrace us.» Umar ibn Khattab

Offline Egyptian

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You don't believe Jesus is the Messiah?! :o

I wrote before in that study that The term messiah, has both technical and non- technical use....

(the non- technical use) we can correctly call Jesus the messiah "aka the anointed" ,as one of the several messiahs been sent by God , one who had been set apart by God and enabled for a special task.

but It would be incorrect calling Jesus "The messiah" (the technical use) ,claiming him as such imagined special Messiah who is predicted in the old testament as descended from King David via Solomon , during his era all the Israelites will be returned to their homeland , Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel ,All the peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance ,the whole world will worship the One God of Israel . etc etc etc .....

The Quranic view of Jesus is not in accordance with the old testament view of the predicted davidic king messiah .... 

what does that mean? It simply means that such predicted character exists only in the imaginations of some of the bible writers.

I mentioned before the reasons for the Jews to fake such character,after the destruction of the Jewish kingdom ,the Jews were longing for the unity,strength, and justice of the idealized united Davidic monarchy of the past , so the Jewish writers of the bible ,started to wrote their wishes in the form of prophecies of a great king who will restore the golden times for the Jews etc etc...


I know , most "if not all" the Muslims who read the study will be surprised when they read me arguing against Jesus being THE MESSIAH ...

I understand such reaction , because they simply don't understand the difference between the term messiah, when applied to any Jewish religious figure who had been set apart by God and enabled for a special task.
and the term messiah as applied to ONE special figure been predicted that with his arrival the Jews will be back to their times of glory etc etc....

that term was applied to other characters before Jesus:



Quote from: Wikipedia,messiah
The literal translation of the Hebrew word moshiach (messiah) is “anointed,” which refers to a ritual of consecrating someone or something by putting holy oil upon it.[1 Sam. 10:1-2] It is used throughout the Hebrew Bible in reference to a wide variety of individuals and objects; for example, a Jewish king,[1 Kings 1:39] Jewish priests,[Lev. 4:3] and prophets,[Isa. 61:1] the Jewish Temple and its utensils,[Ex. 40:9-11] unleavened bread,[Num. 6:15] and a non-Jewish king (Cyrus king of Persia).[Isa. 45:1]



« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 05:18:15 pm by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

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Jesus didn't meet such qualifications to such predicted king messiah ....
so what does that mean?

for Islam ,no problem at all ,as nothing in the Quran says that Jesus was supposed to fulfill such predictions about the king messiah , actually the very basic prediction  of such messiah (as the seed of king David via Solomon), would exclude the born of a virgin ,Quranic Jesus ....
all that we have in the Quran is that Jesus had a title"the messiah" lots of others had.

for Christianity , calling Jesus with the technical use of the title "THE MESSIAH" ,is not just a problem ... it is a disaster that shakes and destroy the trustworthy of the writers of the new testament , turning the whole theology of the new testament to nothing but human fantasies...

ALL of the writers of the new testament agree with each others that Jesus was the promised Davidic king messiah ..

if we compared the promises of the messiah in the old testament and the descriptions and actions they attributed to Jesus in the new testament ,and found out that what Jesus said or done "according to the new testament" ,are against what the predicted messiah must do ,then we can safely say that Jesus isn't such predicted messiah. that means :

ALL of the writers of the new testament were wrong when they claimed that Jesus is such predicted king messiah ,hence proving themselves as non-inspired men ,and their writing not fully the word of God.

that leads to another serious conclusion as well...
The trouble the writers of the new testament have with their believes in Jesus as the king messiah would extend logically to their believes in him as God "assuming some or all of them believed in him as God" .....

If they erred assuming Jesus the predicted king messiah,then that necessarily require they erred assuming God as well .isn't it?

 kill two birds with one stone  ;D .

...............................

thank you Bro Final Overture for your comment any other comments ,objections are welcome.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 05:07:22 pm by Egyptian »

Offline Final Overture

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Quote
They came to see Jesus as the messiah in spite of his execution after their reading of passages in the Jewish scriptures that talk about one of Cod's righteous ones suffering for the sins of others (cf. Isaiah 53: Psalm 22) S. These passages don't explicitly refer to the Messiah but those Christians claimed they did
Actually, Jesus himself quoted Psalms 22 in Mark 15:34.
Quote
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
And Psalms 22:1
Quote
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me
Now let's read some more of this chapter:
Quote
4 In you our fathers trusted; they trusted, and you delivered them. 5 To you they cried and were rescued; in you they trusted and were not put to shame. 11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near, and there is none to help. 19 But you, O LORD, do not be far off! O you my help, come quickly to my aid! 20 Deliver my soul from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dog! 21 Save me from the mouth of the lion! You have rescued me from the horns of the wild oxen! 23 You who fear the LORD, praise Him! 24 For He has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, and He has not hidden his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to Him.
So, surely, Jesus didn't die.

We know from Qur'an that Jesus is the Messiah. We are also told of his second coming.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 05:33:05 pm by Final Overture »
«We were the lowest of all people and then Allah gave us glory by Islam, and if we seek glory in anything other that what Allah has given us, Allah will disgrace us.» Umar ibn Khattab

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As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers and sisters,

The Old Testament declares in many places that Jesus Christ will never be killed, nor be crucified.  Please visit:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/isaiah_53.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/psalm_91.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/psalm_116_117_118.htm


For ample references and details.  Isaiah 53, Psalm 91 and Psalm 116, 117 and 118 have ample claims that Christ will never be harmed or killed.

Your brother,
Osama Abdallah