Author Topic: My 1st study "Origin of christianity,NT quoutations of the OT is the key"  (Read 71996 times)

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Offline Egyptian

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Quote from: QuranSearchCom
Yes, Dr. Zakir Naik demonstrated very thoroughly from the NT that Christ never died on the cross.  And he also never resurrected from the dead either.  IN fact, he challenged Christians to show one verse where it says that Jesus Christ resurrected from the dead.  Yes, that boldly. :)  I know, it sounds surprising, but seriously, the brother did an awesome job demonstrating his points.


Assalamualaikum

 I watched only some of the debate , and have some notes:

1- The title should have been "Was Jesus Really Crucified,according to the new testament? instead of "Was Jesus Really Crucified?"....  the second title requires bigger complicated task than the task of addressing whether the New testament teaches that Jesus was crucified or not.


2- Brother Zakir naik provided nothing new ,he repeats again the points ,Brother Ahmed Deedat highlighted in his book "crucificion"  !!  where he said that ,according to the bible, Jesus was crucified yet didn't die on the cross "the swoon theory" ....

3- Though I didn't watch the whole debate , still I can say that I disagree with Dr Naik's approach to disprove the crucifixion ....


If one would like to claim that the new testament doesn't teach that Jesus was crucified,resurrected then one shouldn't ignore the following verses from the new testament where Jesus not only predicted his own crucifixion,death and resurrection ,but also after his (so called resurrection) he reminded them of his prediction !!

Matthew 20:17-19 " And Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside along the way, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn Him to death, and shall deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify Him. And the third day He shall rise again."

Luke 24 :36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day


Jesus (according to the new testament) ,said with his own mouth (others said that as well) that he will be crucified ,resurrected from dead ,and that he was crucified ,resurrected from the dead .
 I don't know ,how Dr Naik would make such easy challenge to Christians to show one verse where it says that Jesus Christ resurrected from the dead !!! 

If one has some points showing that some of the narratives suggest Jesus not dying ,and the fact in some other passages suggest Jesus as crucified,died,resurrected ..then the title of the debate should be " Is the bible contradicting itself regarding Jesus crucifixion,death and resurrection?"

Though I disagree with Dr Naik in his approach in that debate ,still I admire his approach in other debate : The Quran and the Bible in the Light of Science(available on youtube).

« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 11:38:41 am by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

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Again thank you brother Osama for not only sharing such material ,but also giving the chance for us here in the forum to evaluate the material ,and learning from our mistakes and the mistakes of others.

...................................................................................................


Now let's address some of Final Overture 's points...
 
Quote from:  Final Overture
Are you really in doubt that Psalms 22 is about Jesus?


as I said before, Psalm is not a prophecy,to begin with. It is nothing but an experience by its writer ,an experience that millions others of righteous believers had,they had been exposed to sufferings and been vindicated by God. religious zeal is the only reason to turn such passages into prophecies!.

Quote from:  Final Overture
Matthew 27:42“He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”


1- Do you believe that the accounts of the so called crucifixion,or the other account in the new testament eg: the massacre of the babies in Bethlehem , to be historically accurate? do you believe the new testament was written by eyewitnesses? If your answer is yes ,then show us the reasons,plz.

2- Do the similarities between the gospel narratives and the Psalms ,seem astonishing for you?

well , have you heard of the term "Plagiarize" or to commit literary theft ?

the writers of the gospels (who copied from each others) , Plagiarized the psalms ... that is not only my opinion ,but the opinion of many scholars:

Many scholars would suggest that the earliest layer of traditions concerning the death of
Jesus was created by historicizing Old Testament prophecies, and that this prophetic tradition was later developed into a single extended story through the narrative pattern of "The Suffering and Vindication of the Innocent One" (see Crossan 1995, 1; A. Dewey 199(1, 108).

most detail of the life of Jesus as presented in the Gospels relates back to some prior Hebrew scripture, mostly from the scriptures that we now call the Old Testament, though some elements of the Gospels appear to be based on other non-scriptural works as well.
Clearly the story of the crucifixion of Jesus doesn't require a real event for its inspiration, all of the ideas needed to inspire the story already existed in the scriptures (the old testament) that the writers of the new testament, used as food for their thoughts .


Quote from:  Final Overture
I believe that Jesus was on cross but didn't die.”


The Holy Qur'an affirms  that Jesus was not crucified, 4:157 He was neither killed nor crucified .
and you believe that Jesus was crucified ! ... Just why don't you believe the Qur'an !?

The trouble with the "swoon theory" , that no Muslim or even christian should buy it .... 
the Qur'an denies that Jesus was crucified, and the bible affirms that Jesus was crucified .there is no between.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 04:58:44 pm by Egyptian »

Offline Final Overture

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Quote
as I said before, Psalm is not a prophecy,to begin with.
As I said before, Jesus said that Psalms have prophecies.
Quote
2- Do the similarities between the gospel narratives and the Psalms ,seem astonishing for you?

well , have you heard of the term "Plagiarize" or to commit literary theft ?

the writers of the gospels (who copied from each others) , Plagiarized the psalms ... that is not only my opinion ,but the opinion of many scholars:

Many scholars would suggest that the earliest layer of traditions concerning the death of
Jesus was created by historicizing Old Testament prophecies, and that this prophetic tradition was later developed into a single extended story through the narrative pattern of "The Suffering and Vindication of the Innocent One" (see Crossan 1995, 1; A. Dewey 199(1, 108).

most detail of the life of Jesus as presented in the Gospels relates back to some prior Hebrew scripture, mostly from the scriptures that we now call the Old Testament, though some elements of the Gospels appear to be based on other non-scriptural works as well.
Clearly the story of the crucifixion of Jesus doesn't require a real event for its inspiration, all of the ideas needed to inspire the story already existed in the scriptures (the old testament) that the writers of the new testament, used as food for their thoughts .
So, Jesus didn't even exist?

Quote
and you believe that Jesus was crucified ! ... Just why don't you believe the Qur'an !?
I don't believe that Jesus was crucified.

Psalms 40:4 Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust
Psalms 9:10 you, O LORD, have not forsaken those who seek you.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 01:57:20 pm by Final Overture »
«We were the lowest of all people and then Allah gave us glory by Islam, and if we seek glory in anything other that what Allah has given us, Allah will disgrace us.» Umar ibn Khattab

Offline Egyptian

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Quote from: Final Overture
I believe that Jesus was on cross .


versus

Quote from: Final Overture
I don't believe that Jesus was crucified..


as the second is the latest ,I will take it as your official opinion ,and you no longer believe that Jesus was crucified ,hence we agree.

Quote from: Final Overture
As I said before, Jesus said that Psalms have prophecies.


2 questions:

1- Did you read carefully what the writers of the new testament wrote regarding what Jesus said about the psalms and other old testament books?

here is  reminder:

Luke 24 :44 He(Jesus) said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day.

If you still believe that Jesus said that Psalms have prophecies, then you have no choice but to believe that the old testament (psalms etc..) has prophecies of his resurrection on the third day ..

would you accept ,as a Muslim, Jesus being resurrected 3 days after crucifixion and death ?

the second question ,where is it written in old testament ,psalms or whatever,that the messiah will be resurrected from the dead after 3 days?

actually, and away from the opinion of the Qur'an regarding Jesus end of mission , the passage of Luke if read objectively ,fells short the test of truthfulness !!! 
As nothing in the old testament were indeed predicting that the Messiah would rise from the dead.

IF you want to find out the falsehood of the passage you don't need ,necessarily, to go consulting the Qur'an .. just to compare what the writer claimed that Jesus said ,and the old testament . after doing that you will have two options :

1- Either Jesus was a liar ,imagining non-existed prophecies.

2- or the writer of the gospel put in his mouth something he never said ,hence giving the lie to the new testament,not Jesus peace be upon him.

Quote from: Final Overture
So, Jesus didn't even exist?.


I didn't say that ...

the historical research could reveal very little about the historical Jesus.The scholars position regarding the historical Jesus is varied .....some denied his existence ,others believe that all of  the narratives  in the new testament are true ... the fact that they are are Christians, so their certain bias is inevitable . the third group are moderate , they believe that some of the narratives in the new testament possibly true,other are certainly false.that moderate third opinion,is our Islamic position,as well.


Quote from: Final Overture
Psalms 40:4 Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust
Psalms 9:10 you, O LORD, have not forsaken those who seek you
.


Indeed ,God won't forsake THOSE (plural) who seek him.

that is not a prophecy but a reward available for all those who seek God ,whether prophets David,Job,Moses , Jesus ,Mohamed, etc ..... or any ordinary pious believer as well ,whether in past,present or future...

« Last Edit: August 29, 2012, 05:31:20 pm by Egyptian »

Offline Final Overture

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Quote from: Final Overture
I believe that Jesus was on cross .


versus

Quote from: Final Overture
I don't believe that Jesus was crucified..
Nothing really different. I said he was on cross but didn't die.

Quote
Luke 24 :44 He(Jesus) said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer (Not die) and rise from the dead on the third day.

Rise from the dead doesn't mean that he will die and be resurrected. How? Well, the video which i sent you before, why didn't you watch it? It has answers. Hebrews 11:19
Quote
He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back.
Yet, we know Abraham's son didn't die there.
Psalms 31:12
Quote
I have been forgotten like one who is dead;

Quote
the second question ,where is it written in old testament ,psalms or whatever,that the messiah will be resurrected from the dead after 3 days?
Rise? Again, watch that video, it has answers to your questions
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 05:31:11 am by Final Overture »
«We were the lowest of all people and then Allah gave us glory by Islam, and if we seek glory in anything other that what Allah has given us, Allah will disgrace us.» Umar ibn Khattab

Offline Egyptian

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Quote from: Final Overture
Nothing really different. I said he was on cross but didn't die.

The Qur'an  affirms  "they neither killed him NOR CRUCIFIED him" ...  , If one has basic knowledge in Arabic ,one realizes easily that "salaba" means " to be put on a cross" , not "to die on a cross".
If you disagree with that linguistic fact ,then provide your counter linguistic input,plz.
till you do ,your statement  "Jesus was on cross but didn't die" clearly against the Qur'an statement "they didn't put him on the cross aka crucify him" .

to make the matter worse ,for the swoon theory ,

The Holy Quran 5:110 Then God will say, Jesus, son of Mary, remember My favour to you and to your mother: how I strengthened you with the holy spirit, so that you could speak to people in childhood and in maturity; and how I taught you the Book, and wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel; how by My leave you fashioned from clay the shape of a bird and blew upon it, so that, by My leave, it became a bird, and healed the blind and the leper by My permission, and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and how I prevented the Children of Israel from harming you when you came to them with clear signs, when those of them who denied the truth said, This is sheer magic.


According to the Quran, Jesus was not only protected from being put on the cross ,but also from any harm . including necessarily, being scourged violently, being nailed in the wrists that sever the median nerve resulting in a burning pain , The body gradually drains of blood causing the heart to beat faster and faster.  Dehydration is occurring.  The breathing becomes more labored and intense as well as frequent, adding to the agony.  The blood loss results in extreme thirst as the body craves water to restore the lost blood.  The heart beats so hard trying to compensate for the loss of oxygen (due to the lack of blood) in the body, that it eventually ruptures.  At this point the chest cavity fills with fluid. to add ,a soldier pierced Jesus' side and out came blood and water, signifying that the heart had stopped beating and the blood was settling in the chest cavity. A crown of thorns was placed on his head . then his  body was wrapped in linen (Matt. 27:59).  This wrapping was done tightly around the whole body from head to toe.remaining in a dark,cold tomb for three days .

If that was the protection from harm ,I wonder how could have been the case if God decided not to protect him from harm !!!!.....

also ,if we suppose that the verse reference to "protection from the Jews' harm" is not the protection from what happened before and after the cross,but merely "protection from death" . that would be, indeed, an absurd reading to the noble verse ... as death in itself is no harm ... all the prophets experienced death ,yet we can't say such experience of mere death was a harm that God decided not to protect the prophets from.

The protection refereed to in the noble verse 5:110, is not a mystery, it is referred to ,in the other noble verse "they neither killed him NOR CRUCIFIED him" ..




Quote from: Final Overture
Rise from the dead doesn't mean that he will die and be resurrected. How?. Hebrews 11:19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back.
Yet, we know Abraham's son didn't die there.
Psalms 31:12
Quote
I have been forgotten like one who is dead;


I have no problem with that in rare figurative cases death and life can be used metaphorically ,but with the condition of providing a STRONG contextual support. using the metaphorical language randomly ,recklessly ,could lead to disastrous, deceptive exegesis . 

The random use of metaphor was a channel through which the deceivers twisted the sacred texts,poisoned the mentalities of the simple men, for their agenda and their purpose of indoctrination . remember always that rule: When the literal sense makes good sense, seek no other sense, lest you come up with nonsense.

In every instance those who been resurrected in the new testament were literally resurrected  eg: Lazarus; the son of the widow of Nain,the daughter of Jairus ...   yet the fans of the swoon theory would make Jesus the exception !  . but the fact is that ,In every instance the death and resurrection of Jesus is mentioned in The new testament ,is clearly literal .

"Now while they were staying in Galilee, Jesus said to them, `The Son of Man is about to be betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him, and the third day He will be raised up." Matthew 17:22-23

Note ,jesus is claimed that he said "they will kill Him"  not "they will try to kill him" ..

Now none of the fans of the swoon theory ,would ever argue that the betrayal in the verse is metaphorical ,but when it comes to killing or death ,mentioned in the very same verse ,their double standard is ready , shifting immediately from the literal to the metaphorical application to satisfy their own agenda.

again in   Luke 24 :46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day.

when you ask the fans of that theory whether the suffering(Six trials ,Scourging,Crown of thorns,Crucifixion ,Burial ) in the previous verse literal or metaphorical ,they won't deny the literal meaning ,but then again shifting immediately from the literal resurrection to the metaphorical, to satisfy their own agenda.

the same game they would apply again to : Matthew 20:17 they shall condemn Him to death, and shall deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify Him. And the third day He shall rise again."

« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 06:36:01 am by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

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again in  (John 19:30). “Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit ... So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was crucified with Him; but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs”

The metaphorical reading is of no help this time ,"death" in the verse is clearly literal ,so this time they are forced to be selective . selecting from their (inspired) writer of John ( they trust his narratives in the crucifixion) the part they like" Jesus received the sour wine.etc..." and ignore him when he said "that Jesus literally gave up the spirit and died."


In sum and substance, the Swoon Theory can be totally rejected as fantasy . the crucifixion narratives as well (I add).
..............................

Quote from: Final Overture
  the second question ,where is it written in old testament ,psalms or whatever,that the messiah will be resurrected from the dead after 3 days?
Rise? Again, watch that video, it has answers to your questions.

If you (mistakenly) insist that the resurrection was metaphorical ,then let me rewrite the question:

where is it written in old testament ,psalms or whatever,that the messiah will be resurrected  METAPHORICALLY from the dead after 3 days?


« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 06:56:04 am by Egyptian »

Offline Final Overture

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Re: My 1st study "Origin of christianity,NT quoutations of the OT is the key"
« Reply #52 on: September 01, 2012, 03:19:36 pm »
Quote from: Final Overture
Nothing really different. I said he was on cross but didn't die.

The Qur'an  affirms  "they neither killed him NOR CRUCIFIED him" ...  , If one has basic knowledge in Arabic ,one realizes easily that "salaba" means " to be put on a cross" , not "to die on a cross".
If you disagree with that linguistic fact ,then provide your counter linguistic input,plz.
till you do ,your statement  "Jesus was on cross but didn't die" clearly against the Qur'an statement "they didn't put him on the cross aka crucify him" .

to make the matter worse ,for the swoon theory ,

The Holy Quran 5:110 Then God will say, Jesus, son of Mary, remember My favour to you and to your mother: how I strengthened you with the holy spirit, so that you could speak to people in childhood and in maturity; and how I taught you the Book, and wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel; how by My leave you fashioned from clay the shape of a bird and blew upon it, so that, by My leave, it became a bird, and healed the blind and the leper by My permission, and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and how I prevented the Children of Israel from harming you when you came to them with clear signs, when those of them who denied the truth said, This is sheer magic.


According to the Quran, Jesus was not only protected from being put on the cross ,but also from any harm . including necessarily, being scourged violently, being nailed in the wrists that sever the median nerve resulting in a burning pain , The body gradually drains of blood causing the heart to beat faster and faster.  Dehydration is occurring.  The breathing becomes more labored and intense as well as frequent, adding to the agony.  The blood loss results in extreme thirst as the body craves water to restore the lost blood.  The heart beats so hard trying to compensate for the loss of oxygen (due to the lack of blood) in the body, that it eventually ruptures.  At this point the chest cavity fills with fluid. to add ,a soldier pierced Jesus' side and out came blood and water, signifying that the heart had stopped beating and the blood was settling in the chest cavity. A crown of thorns was placed on his head . then his  body was wrapped in linen (Matt. 27:59).  This wrapping was done tightly around the whole body from head to toe.remaining in a dark,cold tomb for three days .

If that was the protection from harm ,I wonder how could have been the case if God decided not to protect him from harm !!!!.....
That is not what the verse is saying, is it? http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=110 I didn't see 'harm' there.

http://dictionary.sensagent.com/%D8%B5%D9%8E%D9%84%D9%8E%D8%A8%D9%8F/ar-en/ just crucifixion.
http://www.dicts.info/ud.php?w=%D8%B5%D9%8E%D9%84%D9%8E%D8%A8%D9%8F&l1=Arabic

Quote
Now while they were staying in Galilee, Jesus said to them, `The Son of Man is about to be betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him, and the third day He will be raised up." Matthew 17:22-23

Note ,jesus is claimed that he said "they will kill Him"  not "they will try to kill him" ..

Now none of the fans of the swoon theory ,would ever argue that the betrayal in the verse is metaphorical ,but when it comes to killing or death ,mentioned in the very same verse ,their double standard is ready , shifting immediately from the literal to the metaphorical application to satisfy their own agenda.

again in   Luke 24 :46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day.

when you ask the fans of that theory whether the suffering(Six trials ,Scourging,Crown of thorns,Crucifixion ,Burial ) in the previous verse literal or metaphorical ,they won't deny the literal meaning ,but then again shifting immediately from the literal resurrection to the metaphorical, to satisfy their own agenda.

the same game they would apply again to : Matthew 20:17 they shall condemn Him to death, and shall deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify Him. And the third day He shall rise again."

Well, when you compare this to another verses i.e. let this cup be taken from me, it looks like the Gospelish Jesus can't choose whether he wants to die or not.

Quote
(John 19:30). “Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit ... So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was crucified with Him; but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs”
This is just what they saw. They thought he was dead. So what? I tell you according to Psalms 22 Jesus won't die, so he shouldn't.

Quote
If you (mistakenly) insist that the resurrection was metaphorical ,then let me rewrite the question:

where is it written in old testament ,psalms or whatever,that the messiah will be resurrected  METAPHORICALLY from the dead after 3 days?
Hosea 6?


P.S. Watch that video
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 03:33:07 pm by Final Overture »
«We were the lowest of all people and then Allah gave us glory by Islam, and if we seek glory in anything other that what Allah has given us, Allah will disgrace us.» Umar ibn Khattab

Offline Egyptian

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Re: My 1st study "Origin of christianity,NT quoutations of the OT is the key"
« Reply #53 on: September 01, 2012, 09:32:59 pm »
Quote from:  Final Overture
That is not what the verse is saying, is it?That is not what the verse is saying, is it? http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=110 I didn't see 'harm' there.

Harm or violence ,should be automatically understood..   

the verse literally :

Holy Quran 5:110 and how I prevented,restrained the Children of Israel from (harming,doing violence;evil to ) you when you came to them with clear signs, when those of them who denied the truth said, This is sheer magic.



Muhammad Asad and how I prevented the children of Israel from harming thee

M. M. Pickthall I restrained the Children of Israel from (harming) thee

Yusuf Ali And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee

Wahiduddin Khanand how I prevented the Children of Israel from harming you

Abdel Haleem how I restrained the Children of Israel from [harming] you

Ali Quli Qara'i and when I held off [the evil of] the Children of Israel from you

Shabbir Ahmed how I prevented the Children of Israel from harming you

Syed Vickar Ahamed when I did restrain the Children of Israel from (harming) you


You ask why all those previous translators put the word harm,violence in their translation ?

1- logically the context of the verse about those disbelieves who accused Jesus with magic ,would require a protection from harm , God didn't restrain them from giving him eg; a medal of honor ,or a noble prize,isn't it?

2- second and most important ,is the Arabic word "كففت ,kafaftu" means "I restrained,prevented"

this word is mentioned in other verses in the quran :


Holy Quran 4:84 Then fight in Allah's cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.

Holy Quran 5:11 O you who believe, recall God's blessings upon you when a group desired to aggress against you, and God restrained their hands from you. And reverence God. And in God the believers should put their trust.


In sunna and Arabic literature ,the word , once read (even if out of context),once the Arab reader understand immediately that the discussion is about a protection,prevention from harm.

by reading the previous verse and  "they neither killed him NOR CRUCIFIED him" , it doesn't require a scientific discovery to realize that the Qur'an affirms Jesus wasn't harmed let alone crucified.



Quote from:  Final Overture
http://dictionary.sensagent.com/%D8%B5%D9%8E%D9%84%D9%8E%D8%A8%D9%8F/ar-en/ just crucifixion.
http://www.dicts.info/ud.php?w=%D8%B5%D9%8E%D9%84%D9%8E%D8%A8%D9%8F&l1=Arabic.


so what is your point?!! if the word "salaba" means "to crucify",how that would help your position?!   ...... 

If you need me to take your position seriously, you need to provide from a dictionary the word "salaba" as meaning "to die by means of crucifixion" ...

you have another option too.. to provide me any Arabic text ,that suggests someone heard the word salaba "or any of its derivation" followed by an object, without getting the context ,and he understood ,that such object was a live or dead before being put on the cross, also whether died or escaped the cross....

believe me, the mention of the verb "salaba" (put on a cross) besides  "Qatala" (killed) ,in the same verse should bury the swoon theory forever for a true Muslim.


Quote from:  Final Overture
Well, when you compare this to another verses i.e. let this cup be taken from me, it looks like the Gospelish Jesus can't choose whether he wants to die or not.


Don't forget ,our discussion is not about supposed contradictions in the new testament . it is whether the new testament teaches that Jesus was crucified ,died,resurrected ....  If you would like to say the new testament teaches in some places the death of Jesus and others the opposite ,then ,plz,open a thread of gospels' contradictions.


« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 06:30:30 am by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

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Re: My 1st study "Origin of christianity,NT quoutations of the OT is the key"
« Reply #54 on: September 01, 2012, 09:44:44 pm »
Quote from:  Final Overture
(John 19:30). “Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit ... So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was crucified with Him; but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs”

 This is just what they saw. They thought he was dead. So what?

They erred thinking him dead ,  but did Jesus err as well ,if others err in describing him ,would he err describing what happened to himself as well?

the man repeatedly predicted that he is going to be killed and be resurrected from the dead eg;


"Now while they were staying in Galilee, Jesus said to them, `The Son of Man is about to be betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him, and the third day He will be raised up." Matthew 17:22-23



after the so called crucifixion and resurrection ,he announced :

Luke 24 :44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day.


How many times I quoted the previous?! and you still deny the obvious.!!
The gospelish Jesus insists that he was killed,and resurrected ,just why don't you believe him?!!

Quote from:  Final Overture
where is it written in old testament ,psalms or whatever,that the messiah will be resurrected  METAPHORICALLY from the dead after 3 days? Hosea 6?





Hosea 6


Israel Unrepentant

6 “Come, let us return to the Lord.
He has torn us to pieces
    but he will heal us;
he has injured us
    but he will bind up our wounds.
2 After two days he will revive us;
    on the third day he will restore us,
    that we may live in his presence.


well , Hosea 6 ..  where is it mentioned that the promised messiah will be killed and resurrected from the dead after 3 days?

Hosea 6:2 refers to the people living at the time ,about the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and how they could be healed of their sins and live in God's ways. No resurrected Messiah there. No prophecy of Jesus....

Hosea 5:15 sets the scene and explains the situation very clearly:
I (God) will go, I will return to My place until they will acknowledge their guilt and seek My face; in their distress they will seek Me."

Hosea explains in verse 15 that God sent a clear-cut message to Israel through His prophets; you heard and refused to repent, so My offer resulted in your death sentence. How could I vindicate you after such defiance? Then Hosea says in Hosea 6:1-2:  "Come let us return to God for He has mangled us and He will heal us; He has smitten and He will bandage us. He will heal us after two days; on the third day He will raise us up and we will live before Him."
We, of course, refers to the nation of Israel. and therefore cannot be fulfilled by the the death and resurrection of Jesus..[/size]

Are you amazed if Allah resurrected a group of Jews ?

don't be surprised ...   How about The Qur'an telling us about a situation of mass resurrection ?...

Holy Qur'an 2:55. And remember ye said: "O Moses! We shall never believe in thee until we see Allah manifestly," but ye were dazed with thunder and lighting even as ye looked on.56. Then We raised you up after your death: Ye had the chance to be grateful.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 07:46:55 pm by Egyptian »

Offline Final Overture

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Re: My 1st study "Origin of christianity,NT quoutations of the OT is the key"
« Reply #55 on: September 02, 2012, 07:22:48 am »
Quote
"Holy Quran 5:110 and how I prevented,restrained the Children of Israel from (harming,doing violence;evil to ) you when you came to them with clear signs, when those of them who denied the truth said, This is sheer magic.



Muhammad Asad and how I prevented the children of Israel from harming thee

M. M. Pickthall I restrained the Children of Israel from (harming) thee

Yusuf Ali And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee

Wahiduddin Khanand how I prevented the Children of Israel from harming you

Abdel Haleem how I restrained the Children of Israel from [harming] you

Ali Quli Qara'i and when I held off [the evil of] the Children of Israel from you

Shabbir Ahmed how I prevented the Children of Israel from harming you

Syed Vickar Ahamed when I did restrain the Children of Israel from (harming) you"
From... Killing you? Why half of these translators put 'harm' into brackets?

Quote
"Now while they were staying in Galilee, Jesus said to them, `The Son of Man is about to be betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him, and the third day He will be raised up." Matthew 17:22-23


after the so called crucifixion and resurrection ,he announced :

Luke 24 :44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day.


How many times I quoted the previous?! and you still deny the obvious.!!
The gospelish Jesus insists that he was killed,and resurrected ,just why don't you believe him?!!

The point which I made, that even according to these Gospels, we can't say that he will die, since he reffered to the prophecies, which say that he won't die. Why would Jesus refer to them in any way? Let this cup be taken from me?


Quote
so what is your point?!! if the word "salaba" means "to crucify",how that would help your position?!   ...... 
And the word crucify means to put to death.
Quote
well , Hosea 6 ..  where is it mentioned that the promised messiah will be killed and resurrected from the dead after 3 days?

Hosea 6:2 refers to the people living at the time ,about the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and how they could be healed of their sins and live in God's ways. No resurrected Messiah there. No prophecy of Jesus....
Who said that he will be killed?
Well, I expected you to say that, so watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azKmKhwz5AE&list=FLT194jl4yVfF0VnFor33r_A&index=26&feature=plpp_video till the end.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 07:25:29 am by Final Overture »
«We were the lowest of all people and then Allah gave us glory by Islam, and if we seek glory in anything other that what Allah has given us, Allah will disgrace us.» Umar ibn Khattab

Offline Egyptian

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Re: My 1st study "Origin of christianity,NT quoutations of the OT is the key"
« Reply #56 on: September 02, 2012, 12:28:08 pm »
Quote from:  Final Overture
From... Killing you?

IF you say so,then you have made a qualifier to a general case.

the verse tells :
1- Jesus performed miracles.
2- they accused him of magic .
3- God restrained them.

using the verb (kafaftu) in the verse ,is automatically (by linguistic,contextual necessity) denotes they were prevented from doing any harm,evil,violence.
actually harm comes in several forms , they could have been restrained from beating ,stoning or jailing him , not merely killing him,  the fact there is no qualifier in the verse.
now, even if we for the sake of argument narrow the meaning of restrain to a specific act of violence , still verse 4:157 teaches us where is our limit should be , as you may conjecture whatever might happened to Jesus ,but when it comes to putting him on the cross,that is where is your limit of imagination should stops ... the Qur'an simply,clearly says he wasn't put on the cross.

4:157"they neither killed him NOR CRUCIFIED him"


Quote from:  Final Overture
The point which I made, that even according to these Gospels, we can't say that he will die, since he referred to the prophecies, which say that he won't die. Why would Jesus refer to them in any way? Let this cup be taken from me?

you assume that he referred to prophecies , while me as a Muslim , don't believe that Jesus the prophet would refer to false ,imaginary prophecies.
even if we suppose he really refereed to prophecies, he according to the new testament ,referred to the prophecies say he will be killed and resurrected.


Quote from:  Final Overture
And the word crucify means to put to death.

that is a conjecture till you provide ARABIC dictionary that says the verb (Salaba aka to put on a cross) means (to put to death)......

Even if you have a hundred dictionaries that explain what (crucify) mean in English, all irrelevant and won't help your case with what the verb (Salaba ) means in Arabic.

The Quran originally in Arabic , so no one should bother what the English word could mean.

Quote from:  Final Overture
Well, I expected you to say that, so watch:

Note . I'm not fond of watching videos , so please don't post videos here in our discussion , I don't like someone answering my simple point with a full lecture that may include irrelevant stuff....
so please if you have something to say then write it (just as I always write to you) , and take all your time .

« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 07:04:41 pm by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

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Re: My 1st study "Origin of christianity,NT quoutations of the OT is the key"
« Reply #57 on: September 02, 2012, 01:52:21 pm »
Bro  Final Overture conjectured a meanng for the word (salaba) ,so my duty now to quote the online Arabic dictionaries to show the true meaning of the verb (salaba)

The verb (salaba) ,according to , Almugam algani  Arabic Dictionary (the hugest Arabic dictionary,195000 items, available in pdf format online), means :

المعجم الغني "صَلْبِهِ أَيْ إِيثَاُقُ يَدَيْهِ مَمْدُودَتَيْنِ وَرِجْلَيْهِ مَشْدُودَتَيْنِ".

"to crucify him" means, to bound with force ,his stretched hands and feet .



In Almaany dictionary (available to read online)

http://www.almaany.com/home.php?language=arabic&lang_name=%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%8A&word=%D8%B5%D9%84%D8%A8


 صلب - صَلَبَ :
[ ص ل ب ]. ( فعل : ثلاثي لازم متعد بحرف ). صَلَبْتُ ، أَصْلِبُ ، اِصْلِبْ ( أَصْلُبُ ، اُصْلُبْ )، مصدر صَلْبٌ .
1 ." صَلَبَهُ عَلَى لَوْحٍ " : شَدَّهُ ، أَيْ أَوْثَقَ يَدَيْهِ مَمْدُودَتَيْنِ وَرِجْلَيْهِ مَشْدُودَتَيْنِ . النساء آية 157 وَمَا قَتَلُوه وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَكِنْ شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ . ( قرآن ) : الإِشَارَةُ هُنَا إِلَى السَّيِّدِ الْمَسِيحِ الَّذِي تَوَهَّمَ أَعْدَاؤُهُ أَنَّهُمْ شَدُّوا أَطْرَافَهُ وَعَلَّقُوهُ .

"to crucify hm" means, to bound with force ,his stretched hands and feet .


I mentioned in previous post ,some examples of the verb used In Arabic doesn't denote automatically a death on a cross , but only hoisting or being hoisted up on a cross or plank or pole for the purpose of defamation and humiliation. so no need here to repeat ...
If the verse 4:157"they neither killed him NOR CRUCIFIED him"

said only "they didn't kill him " then the door is open for speculations (which remain speculations till ether supported by the Qur'an or historical eyewitnesses testimony) ...

but the verse adds to "killed" the verb "crucify" ,to say that not only they didn't kill him but also didn't bound his stretched hands and feet aka crucified him ...

 
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 06:56:45 pm by Egyptian »

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: My 1st study "Origin of christianity,NT quoutations of the OT is the key"
« Reply #58 on: September 04, 2012, 11:44:15 am »
Quote
I mentioned in previous post ,some examples of the verb used In Arabic doesn't denote automatically a death on a cross , but only hoisting or being hoisted up on a cross or plank or pole for the purpose of defamation and humiliation. so no need here to repeat ...
If the verse 4:157"they neither killed him NOR CRUCIFIED him"

said only "they didn't kill him " then the door is open for speculations (which remain speculations till ether supported by the Qur'an or historical eyewitnesses testimony) ...

but the verse adds to "killed" the verb "crucify" ,to say that not only they didn't kill him but also didn't bound his stretched hands and feet aka crucified him

As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers and sisters,

I just wanted to share my thoughts on Noble Verse 4:157:

1-  It is clear from the Glorious Quran that Jesus Christ was "neither killed nor crucified".

2-  It is also clear from the end of Noble Verse 4:157 that the Jews didn't kill Jesus Christ with clear certainty (wa ma qataloohu yaqeena).  In other words, it could mean that they thought he died when he was still alive.

To me, the Noble Verse could mean that Christ was actually put on the cross.  When Allah Almighty said that they neither crucified him nor killed him, the Noble Verse could mean that Christ not killed on the cross, nor was he killed by any other mean such as stabbing (In the Bible's New Testament, Christ did get pierced while on the cross).  Now, we Muslims also believe that the entire Bible is full of corruption.  Even the Bible's own theologians admit that most of its books and gospels were written by unknown people, in unknown dates and unknown places.  Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/authors_gospels.htm.

3-  Yet, according to the Bible itself in Isaiah 53, Psalm 91 and Psalm 116 and Psalm 118, Christ will be honored, protected from harm, no harm will come upon him, the Angels will come down to protect him and lift him up from all harm, and GOD Almighty will hear his prayers and will protect him and not have him get hurt.  Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/isaiah_53.htm for ample proofs.

Whatever took place and however you look at it, the final conclusion that you can always draw from reading even the Bible is that Jesus Christ did not die on the cross.  Period.  This I believe is a clear-cut fact as also Dr. Zakir Naik has thoroughly demonstrated in the link that I gave in the previous post above, which is also linked at the top of this article that I linked in this post as well.  I don't think we, the Muslims, should bang our heads too much on whether Christ was placed on the cross or not.   There is also, from the Bible, clear evidence that Christ might have been replaced by the other "Jesus son of his father" (Jesus Barraba) by Pilate.  So it's also possible that Christ was never put on the cross.  But like I said, whether he was put or not, even from the Bible alone we can easily draw a strong conclusion that Christ never died on the cross.  Visit the link that I gave for more details and proofs.

May Allah Almighty bless you.  Ameen.

Your brother,
Osama Abdallah




Offline Egyptian

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Re: My 1st study "Origin of christianity,NT quoutations of the OT is the key"
« Reply #59 on: September 04, 2012, 12:31:28 pm »
As'salamu Alaikum

Quote from: QuranSearchCom
I don't think we, the Muslims, should bang our heads too much on whether Christ was placed on the cross or not.



peace bro QuranSearchCom , Muslims never banged their heads, even so for minute ,on whether Christ was placed on the cross or not ,from the beginning of Islam , till the last few decades when the deviant Qadini sect , propagated that the swoon theory (that rare readers to the new testament suggest) ,could also be applied to the Quran...

The Qadiani sect banged the heads of Orthodox Muslims with such theory , the danger of such theory is not questioning a specific Hadith or a tradition ,but pervert the meaning of a noble verse ,that is why it must be exposed and refuted without tolerance.


Quote from: QuranSearchCom
the Noble Verse could mean that Christ was actually put on the cross..



The verse says and clearly he wasn't actually put on the cross .
In any Arabic dictionary the word "Salaba" means " to bound with force ,his stretched hands and feet aka put him on the cross" .

how could the Quran says:

Christ wasn't actually X.

and we say

Christ was actually X .


should we take the Qur'an seriously when it says "neither killed him" and  close our eyes when it says " nor put him on the cross"... ? 

Astaghfirullah  !!!......

The Holy Qur'an[2:85]  : Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.


I hope my criticism is not offending anyone , but when it comes to the Quran,the matter is so serious.

May Allah Almighty bless you.  Ameen.

« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 12:33:22 pm by Egyptian »