Author Topic: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?  (Read 20982 times)

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Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2016, 10:59:42 am »
Exactly what are you trying to pull here? The Bible is claimed by Christian scholars as not just some historical document but as the Word of God.
Source: https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_276.cfm

Additionally, even if it was just a historical document, are you saying that it did not exist in your God's knowledge before humans decided to write it down?
As I have already mentioned before, Qur'an's existence in eternity is a disputed point not one of consensus, and even if there was unanimity over this, as I have repeatedly pointed out to you, it still does not make the Qur'an a separate being, it is an attribute of God, and it has also been called as a reflection of God's knowledge.

Regarding the trinity:

No, it is not easy "to think of a human as a trinity". Just what is the basis of this assumption? I never thought of a human in such a manner.

"...the mind is the conscious self..."
So, what happens when a person sleeps or becomes unconscious? So for a third of each day, a human is a duality, or whatever term you want to use here? Is it the same for God too? Sometimes, He is a trinity and at other times He is a duality?

"...the body is what we can see..."
So, when parts of a human's body get amputated, do parts of God also decrease in such a way? If parts of God can die, this conclusion is logical.

"... the spirit is the unconscious self that regulates heartbeat, body temperature, sugar levels etc."
Seriously? It is not the spirit that does these things, it is the brain (or the heart). If you can show me evidence of a human being whose brain or heart is unresponsive and still his "heartbeat, body temperature, sugar levels" are being regulated, then I will admit the possibility that it is the spirit that is doing it.

What about the soul which the christian doctrine believes will go to heaven or hell, does this mean that humans have four parts instead of three? Or by spirit you meant soul? In which case it would mean that the unconscious part of humans, which had no say in the matter of disbelieving in the divinity of Jesus gets to experience the torments of Hell.

No, this trinity can not be applied to God, but for animals on the other hand, I don't think it would be inaccurate to do so.
Animals also have a conscious self, they are conscious of their surroundings, their hunger, even of themselves as was discovered by observing their reactions when they saw their own reflections. They also have bodies and "spirit" which "regulates [their] heartbeat, body temperature, sugar levels etc.".

Offline submit

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2016, 10:01:33 pm »
You do agree with the Trinity of a human being, right ?

Nope i do not agree. Such concept is easily refuted as each human posses demon in themselves. So does demon resides in God ?

 And why would you compare traits of a human being onto God. Is God some sort like Hellenistic God that has physical human bodies?

Offline brian464

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2016, 07:40:02 am »

As I have already mentioned before, Qur'an's existence in eternity is a disputed point not one of consensus, and even if there was unanimity over this,

When you say  "there was unanimity over this, " you are also saying there is, at least, a minority of scholars who say that the Quran existed together with Allah in eternity, right ?

Offline brian464

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2016, 07:44:32 am »
it still does not make the Qur'an a separate being, it is an attribute of God, and it has also been called as a reflection of God's knowledge.

In addition to my comment above, are you saying there is no Quran in heaven beside Allah ?

Offline brian464

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2016, 07:50:54 am »
You do agree with the Trinity of a human being, right ?

 And why would you compare traits of a human being onto God. Is God some sort like Hellenistic God that has physical human bodies?

Let's assume all non-Muslim religions including Christianity are polytheistic, why would Allah care ? isn't he all loving and kind and does not mind people going after other gods ?

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2016, 09:33:35 am »
Discourse with you continues to be a waste of time. On another thread you continue to comment, not answering the criticisms that I made earlier, even though I specifically mentioned that I won't reply until those things remain unanswered or unrefuted.

You do know what "unanimity" means, right? If there is "a minority of scholars who say that the Quran existed together with Allah in eternity" it means that there is not a unanimity.

Regarding, "Quran in heaven beside Allah" - I'm not sure exactly what you are talking about here, but let's say that the Qur'an does exist in heaven beside Allah. This would mean that the heaven also exists beside Allah, the trees of heaven also exist, the rivers of heaven also, the angels also exist beside Allah, and so on and so forth. So, how many gods does the Islamic doctrine has? Muslims know the simple answer to that question but people trying really really hard to pervert the straightforward teachings of Islam on this matter, will go out of their way to not accept that clear and obvious answer.
I'm not even sure why you even made that statement - if the Qur'an exists beside Allah, it still does not make the Qur'an a separate being.

Regarding, "...all non-Muslim religions including Christianity are polytheistic..." - as has been repeatedly mentioned to you before, that following God's law is a test whose rewards and punishments are agreed upon between God and humans. Are you saying that you would believe in Allah more if He agreed with humans on one thing and did completely another?

Regarding, "...people going after other gods..." - I suppose it would also make you like Allah more if He had no problems with people following other gods, gods such as who demanded human sacrifice etc.

Offline submit

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2016, 06:16:00 am »
In addition to my comment above, are you saying there is no Quran in heaven beside Allah ?

There is no such thing as separate entity Quran besides Allah in heaven.


Let's assume all non-Muslim religions including Christianity are polytheistic, why would Allah care ? isn't he all loving and kind and does not mind people going after other gods ?

One of attribute of Allah is being merciful to His creations. As for humans all of them had took covenant with Him prior to being born on earth. And they will be test by the Creator on earth. And you see the Merciful Creator sending His messengers to give guidance to humans.

It is up to humans to follow or abandon the guidance. But each of mankind's action will be judged in hereafter.

Offline brian464

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2016, 09:46:18 am »
.  gods such as who demanded human sacrifice etc.


Pointing to the "criminal human behavior" of other gods does not mean

 Allah should also be viewed as having human characteristics ( example: worship among humans can only be found in abusive husbands and even then those abusive husbands do not demand worship five times a day )

Offline brian464

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2016, 09:51:00 am »
As for humans all of them had took covenant with Him prior to being born on earth.

So prior to being born on earth,  Allah told the humans they need to worship him five times a day ?

Offline submit

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2016, 12:27:04 pm »
Prior to be born on earth, the covenant is to worship none except Allah.
However, once born on earth, humans are raised up with their parent's religion or beliefs of surroundings.

Offline al-Ghazali

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2017, 07:30:01 am »


"If my FALSEHOODS abound to God's glory why am I being judged a sinner?"

Paul was an admitted liar and self proclaimed apostle to the Gentiles, a notion even Acts, supposedly written by Luke his companion, refutes and says Allah swt chose Peter to do this, and the Gospels agree.

Paul says "Faith ALONE justifies us."

James: "Faith without works is dead."

Both use Abraham (pbuh) as the same proof so who is right? They use the same exact passage too! One was 'brother' of Issa (pbut), the other said "curse that is the Law" was "done away with."

Issa (p) chose 12 Apostles and the requirements for being an Apostle are in Acts as a replacement for Judas Iscariot is needed, "Matthias" replaced Judas and the last man alive who qualified was "Justus (Barnabas according to Codex Bezae)"

Mt 24:23 predicts the coming of Paul, he fits the description, was mad "All those who are in Asia have turned from me" so if Issa (p) spoke his last Revelation to Yohann to "The 7 Churches of Asia"....

And in it mentions 12 Apostles (Vision of New Jerusalem 12 is mentioned 5 or 6 times)...

I will let you decide.

Offline al-Ghazali

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Re: Was Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2017, 07:36:49 am »

"This I have against you...the teaching of Balaam who put a stumbling block for Israel teaching to eat meat sacrificed to idols..." Issa (sa) in Revelation.

"An idol is nothing."

Paul claims that it's fine to eat, only "weak brothers", if they are present, then don't.

"Weak brothers" refers to the "Circumcision faction", "Men of James brought in to spy on our freedom in Christ Jesus..."

In other words... don't get caught or I'm im trouble with James (sa).