Author Topic: can someone please help? it's about a shia...  (Read 2450 times)

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Offline shaad

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can someone please help? it's about a shia...
« on: October 18, 2017, 08:10:58 AM »
Assalamualaikum guys,

I really need some help right now can you guys please help, there's a hadith which is generally believed to be fabricated but a shia tried to to prove it is authentic, i have absolutely no idea how to answer him...here's his argument...


Assalamualaikum,

This hadith is generally thought as fabricated but a shia tried to prove it is authentic...can you please verify this? Can you please do it as soon as possible? I'm gonna quote it for you,

"The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said: O Ali, you and your Shi'a will be in Paradise Many Sunnis are confused by the hadith, since they are not from the Shi'a of Imam Ali (as). So, many of them have declared the hadith weak. However, it is either ignorance or dishonesty. This is because the hadith is not just sahih, it is mutawatir! Inshallah, I will set out now to prove that. First, what is a mutawatir hadith? Well, any hadith narrated through a minimum of 9 or 10 Companions is accepted as mutawatir, and thus absolutely authentic. Imam Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani has some more words: For a mutawatir hadith, the reliability or justice of the narrators is irrelevant. Its authenticity only depends on the multiplicity of narrators, to a number that clearly removes the possibililty of any collusion to lie. Al-Isabah, Vol. 2, p. 252 Imam al-Haskani in his Shawahid Tanzil, Vol. 2, p. 461, has recorded the hadith through a chain from Ibn Abbas. Al-Khawarizmi too in his al-Manaqib, p. 323, has recorded it from another chain from Sa'eed ibn Jubayr from Ibn Abbas. Al-Khawarizmi again has recorded it through another chain from Anas ibn Malik in his Manaqib, p. 319. Ibn Maghazili too has narrated from him through a chain in his Manaqib Amir al-Mumineen, pp. 183-184. Ibn Maghazili al-Shafi'i, in his Manaqib Amir al-Mumineen, pp. 157-158, cites a chain leading up to Jabir ibn Abdullah al-Ansar. Imam al-Tabarani, in his Mu'jam al-Awsat, Vol. 7, p. 343, has narrated it through another chain from Abu Hurayrah. Al-Khawarizmi again has narrated it through a chain from Imam Husayn (as) in his al-Manaqib, p. 317. Al-Haskani, through a chain, has recorded it from Abu Barzah al-Aslami in his Shawahid Tanzil, Vol. 2, p. 463. Imam al-Hakim in his al-Mustadrak, Vol. 3, pp. 174-175 has narrated from Mayna ibn Abi Mayna through a chain. Ibn Asakir in his Tarikh, Vol. 42, p. 333 has narrated it, through a chain, from Umm Salamah. Al-Haythami too, in his Majma al-Zawaid, Vol. 10, p. 21 (Egypt) has narrated it through another chain from her. Al-Hafiz Jamaluddin al-Zarnadi, in his Nasm Duroor al-Simtayn, p. 24, has narrated it, through a chain, from Ibrahim ibn Shaybah al-Ansari. Al-Khatib al-Baghdadi, in his Muwazzih Awham al-Jami' wa al-Tafriq, Vol. 1, p. 43, records it, through a chain, from Bibi Fatimah al-Zahra (as). A huge number of Sunni scholars have narrated it through several chains from Imam Ali (as). Among them are Ibn Asakir in his Tarikh, Vol. 42, p. 332, al-Dawlabi in his al-Dhurriyat al-Tahirat, p. 121, al-Khatib al-Baghdadi in his Tarikh, Vol. 12, p. 284 and others. The hadith has been narrated from ELEVEN Companions. It is therefore absolutely authentic and must be accepted as proof, being a mutawatir tradition. Imam Ibn Hajar records in his 'Nuzhat al-Nadhar' page 10: "Verily one must work with the mutawatir hadith without checking its narrators" Sunni scholar and a teacher of university of Makka Allamah Ahmad bin Umar bin Salim records in Al-Muqtareb fi Bayan al-Mutareb, page 10: "The tawattur do not require checking of narrators, verily one must work with it without checking because it is acceptable" Present day Salafi scholar and one of the students of Shaykh Bin Baz namely Abdulkarim al-Khudhair (born in 1374 H) records in Tahqiq al-Raghba fi Tawdih al-Nukhba, page 44: The mutawatir: Traditions that should be believed because they are absolutely true, there is hence no need to check through its narrators We read the aspect of a mutawatir tradition in Tadrib al-Rawi by Imam Jalaluddin Suyuti, Volume 2 page 173: "Hence one must work with it without checking the narrators." Allahuma salli 'ala Muhammadin wa ahlihi wa shi'atihim ajma'een."


I'm in a tough spot right now...

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: can someone please help? it's about a shia...
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2017, 08:36:50 AM »
Wa Alaikum As'salam dear brother Shaad,

From what I've seen from shias on youtube and on paltalk, they parrot the garbage and lies that had been fed to them.  They also are TAQIYYA experts.  They lie left and right without any shame.  They would butcher the context of Hadiths and fabricate and add their lies into the text.  I've seen ample examples of them being exposed as liars.

What is exactly the Hadith in question here?  Your quotation is all messed up!  Is it only this:

"The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said: O Ali, you and your Shi'a will be in Paradise."

There is nothing wrong with this Hadith, and the shia polytheists are not the shias of Ali, just like the polythiest trinitarian pagans are not followers of Jesus and Mary.  Peace be upon the mentioned three.  See the shias' blasphemies at:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac11.htm#links


Not only they seek Ali and others for:

1-  Forgiveness.
2-  Help.
3-  Guidance.
4-  Mercy.


But they even curse GOD Almighty and His Throne!  They say the Throne of Allah is under the feet of Ali and his family.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline shaad

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Re: can someone please help? it's about a shia...
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2017, 08:58:22 AM »
Sorry for the messed up quotation, it is infact exactly as it is... apparently the shia copied it from a website...that's exactly the Hadith by the way

Offline shaad

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Re: can someone please help? it's about a shia...
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2017, 08:59:30 AM »
Any good answer brother Osama?

Offline shaad

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Re: can someone please help? it's about a shia...
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2017, 09:12:21 AM »
I'm gonna try to fix the quotation first....


"The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said: O Ali, you and your Shi'a will be in Paradise"

 Many Sunnis are confused by the hadith, since they are not from the Shi'a of Imam Ali (as).

 So, many of them have declared the hadith weak. However, it is either ignorance or dishonesty. This is because the hadith is not just sahih, it is mutawatir! Inshallah, I will set out now to prove that.

 First, what is a mutawatir hadith? Well, any hadith narrated through a minimum of 9 or 10 Companions is accepted as mutawatir, and thus absolutely authentic.

 Imam Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani has some more words: For a mutawatir hadith, the reliability or justice of the narrators is irrelevant. Its authenticity only depends on the multiplicity of narrators, to a number that clearly removes the possibililty of any collusion to lie. Al-Isabah, Vol. 2, p. 252

 Imam al-Haskani in his Shawahid Tanzil, Vol. 2, p. 461, has recorded the hadith through a chain from Ibn Abbas. Al-Khawarizmi too in his al-Manaqib, p. 323, has recorded it from another chain from Sa'eed ibn Jubayr from Ibn Abbas. Al-Khawarizmi again has recorded it through another chain from Anas ibn Malik in his Manaqib, p. 319.

 Ibn Maghazili too has narrated from him through a chain in his Manaqib Amir al-Mumineen, pp. 183-184. Ibn Maghazili al-Shafi'i, in his Manaqib Amir al-Mumineen, pp. 157-158, cites a chain leading up to Jabir ibn Abdullah al-Ansar.

 Imam al-Tabarani, in his Mu'jam al-Awsat, Vol. 7, p. 343, has narrated it through another chain from Abu Hurayrah. Al-Khawarizmi again has narrated it through a chain from Imam Husayn (as) in his al-Manaqib, p. 317. Al-Haskani, through a chain, has recorded it from Abu Barzah al-Aslami in his Shawahid Tanzil, Vol. 2, p. 463.

 Imam al-Hakim in his al-Mustadrak, Vol. 3, pp. 174-175 has narrated from Mayna ibn Abi Mayna through a chain. Ibn Asakir in his Tarikh, Vol. 42, p. 333 has narrated it, through a chain, from Umm Salamah. Al-Haythami too, in his Majma al-Zawaid, Vol. 10, p. 21 (Egypt) has narrated it through another chain from her.

 Al-Hafiz Jamaluddin al-Zarnadi, in his Nasm Duroor al-Simtayn, p. 24, has narrated it, through a chain, from Ibrahim ibn Shaybah al-Ansari. Al-Khatib al-Baghdadi, in his Muwazzih Awham al-Jami' wa al-Tafriq, Vol. 1, p. 43, records it, through a chain, from Bibi Fatimah al-Zahra (as).


 A huge number of Sunni scholars have narrated it through several chains from Imam Ali (as). Among them are Ibn Asakir in his Tarikh, Vol. 42, p. 332, al-Dawlabi in his al-Dhurriyat al-Tahirat, p. 121, al-Khatib al-Baghdadi in his Tarikh, Vol. 12, p. 284 and others.

 The hadith has been narrated from ELEVEN Companions. It is therefore absolutely authentic and must be accepted as proof, being a mutawatir tradition. Imam Ibn Hajar records in his 'Nuzhat al-Nadhar' page 10: "Verily one must work with the mutawatir hadith without checking its narrators"

 Sunni scholar and a teacher of university of Makka Allamah Ahmad bin Umar bin Salim records in Al-Muqtareb fi Bayan al-Mutareb, page 10: "The tawattur do not require checking of narrators, verily one must work with it without checking because it is acceptable"

Present day Salafi scholar and one of the students of Shaykh Bin Baz namely Abdulkarim al-Khudhair (born in 1374 H) records in Tahqiq al-Raghba fi Tawdih al-Nukhba, page 44: The mutawatir: Traditions that should be believed because they are absolutely true, there is hence no need to check through its narrators

 We read the aspect of a mutawatir tradition in Tadrib al-Rawi by Imam Jalaluddin Suyuti, Volume 2 page 173: "Hence one must work with it without checking the narrators."

Offline shaad

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Re: can someone please help? it's about a shia...
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2017, 09:18:34 AM »
Brother Osama, i've finally realised how to refute him....it's time for me to turn the tables...his knowledge about Mutawatir seems terrible...thank you by the way, sorry for the trouble

Offline Sama

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Re: can someone please help? it's about a shia...
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2017, 11:27:17 AM »
Salam alaikum

Imam Albani graded it as fabricated (Mawdoo3)

 قال رسول الله لعلي ( ع ) : أنت وشيعتك في الجنة .
الراوي: أم سلمة هند بنت أبي أمية المحدث: الألباني - المصدر: السلسلة الضعيفة - الصفحة أو الرقم: 5590
خلاصة حكم المحدث: موضوع
Quote
فذكره ، وقال الطبراني :
" لم يروه عن عطية عن أبي سعيد عن أم سلمة إلا سوار بن مصعب "
قلت : وهو متهم ، قال البخاري :
" منكر الحديث " . وقال النسائي وغيره :
" متروك " . وقال ابن حبان ( 1 / 356 ) :
" كان ممن يأتي بالمناكير عن المشتهير ، حتى يسبق إلى القلب أنه كان المتعمد لها " . بل قال الحاكم :
" روى عن الأعمش وابن خالد المناكير ، وعن عطية الموضوعات "
http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vb/showthread.php?t=220700
http://www.ansarsunna.com/vb/showthread.php?t=48436

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: can someone please help? it's about a shia...
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2017, 03:46:36 PM »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers Shaad and Sama and Everyone,

Jazkakuma (dual plural) Allah Khayr.  I also want to add that our conflict with the shia religion is that they've invented 12 imams, whom each have his holy book.  Starting from NAHJUL-BALAGHA of Ali to the anticipated 12th imam, who's now being recruited and trained in Iran and Israel.

From their books, with the exception of Ali's book, you get the blasphemies:

1-  Fatima's Mus'haf (Quran) is 3 times bigger than our current Quran.

2-  Our current Quran is corrupt.

3-  Allah's Throne is under the feet of AHLUL BAYT.

4-  Pray in the direction of Hussein's grave, not the Kaaba (Allah Almighty's Sacred House) in Mecca.

5-  Mecca is worthless, and all Muslims will soon be doing their pilgrimage (Hajj) to Karbala, not Mecca.  In the link below, the Sheikh read from their books A CONVERSATION BETWEEN ALLAH and Mecca and Karbala, where He told Mecca that you are worthless and Karbala is the Holy City.

6-  Prostrate to and worship Hussein's grave, and approach the grave while crawling on your belly.

7-  Pray to the People of the House of the Prophet (AHLUL BAYT), instead of Allah Almighty, and seek them for:

(a)-  Protection.
(b)-  Guidance.
(c)-  Mercy.
(d)-  Forgiveness.


And many other examples.


Your problem with the shias isn't just limited to things like:

1-  Is temporary marriage (muta) allowed or not?
2-  Was Ali supposed to be the first Caliph?  (I am with them on this one.  Ali was appointed by the Prophet to be the first Caliph)

These two points and few others are minor, and they were certainly limited in time and place to their people.  They are irrelevant to us Muslims today.  It doesn't matter who was the first Caliph and who should've been the first Caliph.  It has no relevance today.  Islam doesn't stand and fall on these points.


Your problem with them is that they have invented 12 PROPHETS and 12 HOLY BOOKS that they follow.  This is why you see their imams weak in Quran recitation and reading.  For ample more, please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac11.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/was_muta_immoral.htm


Our problems with the shias is that their islam is almost completely different from ours.

I hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline shaad

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Re: can someone please help? it's about a shia...
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2017, 07:16:07 PM »
Thanks brother Sama...that was useful