Author Topic: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"  (Read 30302 times)

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Offline Egyptian

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I intend the study inshallah to be as much comprehensive as to address all the points related to the topic ,including answering the christian delusions regarding the quranic holy spirit ,the issue of Mary with regard to trinity etc.....

I read almost all what is written by Christians regarding those matters and the counter rebuttals by Muslims ,and have some more to add to what they wrote inshallah....
..........................................

We as Muslims held the belief of the trinity as just one chapter of the book of shirk …The overwhelmingly powerful assertion in the Quran that God is absolutely one rules out any notion that another being could share his sovereignty or nature …..
The Quran’s view the Christian doctrine of the Trinity involves an association of creature with God the creator, an infidelity that participates in the pagan infidelity of polytheism....


Christians on the other hand , used to affirm that trinity and true monotheism are compatible ,that Muslims misunderstand the trinity,that the Qur'an accuses a sectarian trinity "Father,Mary,Son" etc......

                                   

                                        A Muslim christian dialogue


                                              1st Issue :3 gods? 

Christian: God for me and orthodox Christians, three divine persons Father, Son,and Holy Spirit distinctly coexisting in unity as co-equal, co-eternal, and consubstantial , or of one being According to this doctrine, God exists as three persons but is one God, meaning that God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have exactly the same nature or being as God the Father in every way. Whatever attributes and power God the Father has, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have as well. "Thus, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are also eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, infinitely wise, infinitely holy, infinitely loving, and omniscient."
you Muslims misunderstood that,and accuse us of believing in three gods ....

Muslim :


First : Not true that Muslims accuse Christians that they believe in 3 gods...

god (with small g) means false one,isn't it ?  if so trinity isn't 3 gods,according to Islam ... read the following Islamic definition of God to get the clue.


What is God, according to Islam?

He is the entity that sent Jesus and appointed for him a mission,we call him (Allah)...Christians would like to call such being by (the father) .... Well, though we think he is a father of no one... we won't prohibit you from calling him what you wish, but pay attention....Whenever we mention the word (Allah ) whom you call (the father) we believe in him as the full un-manifested deity. He doesn’t mean for us one of the three aspects of the deity. Allah (what Christians call the father) is not what you think the incomplete definition of the deity but he is the full UN-personified deity.....

Allah (whom they call the father, considering him just one of the three manifestation of the divine being ) is the only divine entity to be exist and to be alone worshiped ...he doesn't need neither (the son),nor (the holy spirit) to complete the Godhead..... he is simply alone there ....
The Quran accuses Christians with ascribing mortal partners to the almighty,besides ,offering the worship that is due to Allah alone ...


Offline Egyptian

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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2012, 10:23:35 AM »
Though we disagree regarding the limit of the father with regard to the deity, we agree in two points ...that (1) such entity exists (2) and divine as well...
Christians don't believe in 3 gods,according to the Quran. but associating with the one true God (the father as they like to call),with 2 non divine entities (Jesus,holy spirit)...  it is not (god+god+god) but (God+god+god).
 
second :May I ask you where did you get the idea that there is God and he is manifested to his creation with three ways? you will argue that the bible says so.... and the bible is entirely the word of God ,that it must be telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth in any Metaphysical concept therein.
....
In other words ,the validity of the trinity depends on the validity of the bible ....
it is a matter of faith ,or would you claim that the supreme being is kept there in a laboratory and proven to be with three manifestations?
your definition of the deity (as manifested in 3 ways) is based on a book of faith (bible),on the other hand a Muslim counter definition of the deity (one entity with no manifestations) is based on a book of faith ,too (Quran) .......
Jesus could be a physical manifestation of the deity, or a prophet, or a lunatic  etc.....The validity of any of the previous rests on the validity of the scripture whether Christian, Islamic.....

Offline Egyptian

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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2012, 11:02:17 AM »
Issue No.2 The holy spirit s Gabriel
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Christian: we believe the Holy Spirit as one Person of the Triune God, who revealed His Holy Name YHWH to his people Israel, sent His Eternally Begotten Son Jesus to save them, and sent the Holy Spirit to Sanctify and give Life to his Church. He is the Creator Spirit, present before the creation of the universe and through his power everything was made in Jesus Christ..


Muslim : According to Islam (Quran and Sunnah) ,The Holy Spirit is identified with The Angel Gabriel ....

Christian: What evidence is given to suggest that the Holy Spirit is Gabriel?

Muslim : In the Quran, The word appears twenty-one times and has several different usages in the Qur'an with a wide range of meanings.


1- Spirit as Revelation: Holy Quran 42:52 We have thus revealed a Spirit to you [Prophet] by our command: you knew neither the Scripture nor the faith, but We made it a light, guiding with it whoever We will of Our servants. You are indeed guiding to the straight path.
Here spirit is an inspiration , brought to life in those whose hearts are dead through ignorance.

Christian: It seems that the spirit in the verse is an entity reveals the revelation….
Muslim: why not the revelation itself?

Christian: Holy Quran 16:2 Also 40:15 He sends down the Angels with the Spirit (Ruh) by His command upon whom He wishes of His servants: "That you shall warn that there is no god but I, so be aware of me."

The Quran is simply emphasizing the point that it is Allah that commands the Spirit to come down and reveal the inspiration.

Muslim: Can’t we say that he sends, by his command, the angels with the revelation upon whom He wishes of His servants? If not, why not?

Even if we suggest that the (spirit) mentioned after (commands) not to mean (a revelation), still we can argue that it means (Gabriel) ….. And the meaning would be " He sends down the Angels with Gabriel by His command upon whom He wishes of His servants"…. if not, why not?



2- The Spirit as Gabriel.

Gabriel could be called the spirit, the trustworthy spirit, the holy spirit....

Holy Quran 16:102 
  SAY:   The Holy Spirit has brought it down as Truth from your Lord to brace those who believe and as guidance and good news for Muslims.

Holy Quran2:97
Say:"Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel,then know that He has brought it down for your heart with God’s permission, to confirm what came before it and as guidance and good news for believers.


قل نزله روح القدس من ربك بالحق ليثبت الذين آمنوا وهدى وبشرى للمسلمين  Holy Quran 16:102 

قل من كان عدوا لجبريل فإنه نزله على قلبك بإذن الله مصدقا لما بين يديه وهدى وبشرى للمؤمنين Holy Quran2:97



also ,Quran 26:193 The Faithful Spirit has brought it down into your heart, so that you may be a Warner. 70:4 The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years:78:38 on the day when the angels and the Spirit stand arrayed, they speak not, saving him whom the Beneficent alloweth and who speaketh right.97:4The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.19:17 So she took a veil from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man.

Christian: I disagree with you and think that the reference all to an entity other than Gabriel...     It is stated that Allah used more than one messenger to bring down the Quran: Quran 77:5 By those who bring down the Reminder.
According to the Quran, the Reminder refers to the revelation given to the prophets and to Muhammad.Quran 16:2 Also 40:15 He sends down the Angels with the Spirit (Ruh) by His command upon whom He wishes of His servants.


Offline Egyptian

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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2012, 11:08:31 AM »
Muslim:  First: Though the revelation given to Mohamed was called (reminder), Holy Quran 15:6 And they said: "O you upon whom the Reminder has been sent down, you are crazy."
not every reminder is synonymous with the reminder revealed to Mohamed (pbuh)…The folk of Noah had their own reminder Holy Quran 7:63 Are you surprised that a Reminder should come to you from your Lord through one of your own men, so He may warn you and you will do your duty, and in order that you may receive mercy?" The folk of Aad had their own reminder as well, Holy Quran7:69 Are you surprised that a Reminder from your Lord should come to you through one of your own men, so that He may warn you?The torah was a reminder too... Holy Quran 21:105 We have written in the Psalms following the Reminder; "My honorable servants shall inherit the earth."

Second: Holy Quran 16:2 also 40:15 He sends down the Angels with the Spirit (Ruh) by His command upon whom He wishes of His servants.
The angels are sent down to selected servants, not servant ……..Nothing would force the meaning of the verse that a group of angels are sent to each single servant.

Third : Even if the meaning that a group of angels are sent to each single servant, we don’t have any clue that Mohamed peace be upon him had it this way …. Both the Quranic verses and the authentic sunnah affirmed that it was a specific Angel who revealed the Quran ……..
With the hundred of hadiths mention the revelation of the Quran, there is not one instance that mention any other entity whether An Angel or whatever, that taught Mohamed peace be upon him the revelation ,the only angel whose name is mentioned with regards to the revelation of the Qur’an is Gabriel…proving the argument that Allah used more than one messenger to bring down the Quran, is an argument from silence ….

Your theory that the holy spirit (whom you imagine to be different from Gabriel) brought down some of the Quran is mere a conjecture till you tell us when and where such holy spirit, that is distinct from Gabriel, taught Mohamed even a verse from the Quran......Verse 2:97 ,that says clearly ,that it is Gabriel who brought the Quran down for Mohamed’s heart ,Will remain a reference that Gabriel brought down all of the Qur'an …till a qualifier,modifier be provided to render the meaning as Gabriel brought some of the Quran down for Mohamed’s heart...

Offline Egyptian

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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2012, 11:14:05 AM »

Christian: In verses 78:38 On the day when the angels and the Spirit stand arrayed, they speak not, saving him whom the Beneficent alloweth and who speaketh right. and 70:4 The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years:, and 97:4 The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.
Also in Hadith"Narrated Aisha: The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) used to pronounce while bowing and prostrating himself: All Glorious, all Holy, Lord of the Angels and the Spirit." (Sahih Muslim, Book 4, Number 0987)

Make a distinction between the angels (of which Gabriel is obviously one) with the Spirit. This supports that Gabriel is not the Spirit. Had the Spirit been Gabriel there would be no need to distinguish him from the angels.

Muslim: In Arabic language it is not unusual to specify part of a whole group to emphasize the significance of that part. e.g.. in 55:68 God talks about fruits, dates and pomegranate to emphasize the last two kinds of fruits. [55:68] In them are fruits, date palms, and pomegranate. In 2:238 God talks about Salat and the middle salat to emphasize its significance of the middle salat.

and
66:4 If the two of you repent to God, then your hearts have listened. But if you band together against him, then God is his ally, and so are Gabriel and the righteous believers. Also, the Angels are his helpers.
This verse mentions the Angel Gabriel separately from the other angels, but we know that he is An Angel himslef.
the same idea in another verse
2:98 Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and apostles, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith.
This verse mentions the Angel Gabriel and the Angel Michael separately from the other angels, but we know that they are angels themselves.

Christian: How do you know that Gabriel is an angel?

We have numerous super Authentic Hadiths, tell us, not only who Gabriel is (An Angel) but also lots of other things about him ….

Some proofs, in brief …

Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet said to Gabriel, "What prevents you from visiting us more often than you visit us now?" So there was revealed:-- 'And we (angels) descend not but by the command of your Lord. To Him belongs what is before us and what is behind us...'(19.64) (Bukhari Book #60, Hadith #255)

Narrated Aisha: …………….
The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) pitched a tent for him in the mosque and would inquire after him being in close proximity. When he returned from the Ditch and laid down his arms and took a bath, the angel Gabriel appeared to him…………………. (Muslim Book #019, Hadith #4370)

Narrated Ibn Abbas:................................Whenever Gabriel came to Allah's Apostle ' he would keep quiet (and listen), and when the angel left, the Prophet would recite that revelation as Allah promised him. (Bukhari Book #60, Hadith #451)

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: Allah's Apostle was the most generous of all the people, and he used to reach the peak in generosity in the month of Ramadan when Gabriel met him. Gabriel used to meet him every night of Ramadan to teach him the Qur'an. Allah's Apostle was the most generous person, even more generous than the strong uncontrollable wind (in readiness and haste to do charitable deeds). (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 1, Number 5: ) etc …. etc…. etc…

Offline Egyptian

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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2012, 11:25:04 AM »

Christian: Accepting the idea that the spirit is Gabriel (who is a creature), would contradict other Quranic verses that ascribe the following divine qualities to the Spirit:

1- A Life giver:
Qur'an 15:29 Also 32:6-9 , 38:72 So, when I have made him and have breathed into him of My Spirit, do ye fall down, prostrating yourselves unto him. These passages indicate that after fashioning man God gave him life by breathing his Spirit into him….. With the same linguistic structure, in verse 21:91 Mary received the breath of life (life giving spirit) and conceived Jesus: 21:91 "And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and we made her and her son a sign for all peoples." We are also told that God’s Spirit appeared to Mary in the form of a man: 19:17 she chose to be secluded from them. We sent her Our spirit, who presented himself to her as a full-grown human being.   
These passages indicate that the Spirit is not a force but a divine personality

Muslim: Only a dogmatic and close minded who would consider every mention in the Quran, of the word spirit (Ruh) ,has to be the holy spirit, or all the instances the word spirit mentioned, has to be typically in meaning ….

First:

Barbara F Stowasser Professor of Arabic & Islamic Studies CENTER FOR CONTEMPORARY ARAB STUDIES wrote in the Encyclopaedia of the Quran
:

"In its role as conveyor of revelation, the spirit is identified as Gabriel (q.v.; Jibrīl, q 2:97). In Mary’s story, the spirit is the life-creating force of, or from, God. Qurānic commentary, however, has consistently differentiated between “our spirit sent to Mary in the form of a well proportioned man” (q 19:17) and “our spirit [of ] which we breathed into Mary” (q 21:91; 66:12), identifying the former with the angel Gabriel and the latter with the life substance with which God (directly) awakened Adam to life from clay, just as it (directly) awakened Jesus to life in Mary’s womb . The classical interpreters established that Gabriel was a mean, or instrument, of God’s creative power, whence they linked his agency with God’s breathing, or blowing, of his spirit into Mary by developing the theme of Gabriel’s blowing at Mary’s garment or person ."


Second: Assuming the spirit to be some other entity than Gabriel, still it has to be a created entity ……The idea of the divine to be manifested in the flesh is clearly condemned in the Quran … The idea of a created messenger from God that took the human form goes very well with the idea " that is mentioned in Quran and sunna" of Angels, especially Gabriel, taking the human form in earthly mission "….

Third: In Islam, Calling Allah a spirit is a gross error ....

-Jesus is called a spirit in the Quran ,yet we know that he is a creature ,according to the Quran.

- Ron Rhodes,president of Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministries,wrote:

"Muslims assert, “The suggestion that God is a spirit implies He is a created being, like an angel.” Undeniably, Islam says that God is not a spirit; otherwise, one would imply he is part of the created realm, like the angels. On the Contrary, the Bible says that God is Spirit (Jn 4:24; Is 31:3). "

- “the Qur’an uses the word ruh twenty times, but each time the word is understood to refer to a created being that has a subtle body.” Similarly, “Angels and jinn have such a subtle body capable of penetrating a coarse body.” The indications are therefore that “to say that God is a spirit is understood to mean that he is a created being. ” Muslim & Christian at Table by McDowell & Zaka (1999:94)

Offline Egyptian

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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2012, 11:32:08 AM »
- Evidently, “The Muslim’s concept of God conflicts with the deity and personality of the Holy Spirit (1) the concept of the absolute unity of God precludes the possibility of the Holy Spirit being God. (2) The personality of the Holy Spirit, and indeed the possibility of knowing God in a personal way through the indwelling Holy Spirit, is incompatible with the Muslim’s concept of Allah's absolute transcendence.” “Since man is a servant (‘abd) of Allah, he does not look for a close communion with God through the Spirit of adoption. The very idea of the Spirit indwelling the believer is incompatible with Islamic ideology”. “Only the Sufis (mystics) aim at union with God, but for them this is achieved by man’s striving upward and not by the coming down of the Holy Spirit to dwell in their hearts.” The holy spirit in the Qur'an : an assessment from a Christian perspective. By Judy Tao Shih-Ching.



Christian: When Muhammad was asked concerning the Spirit he didn’t say he was Gabriel.And they ask you concerning the Ruh (the spirit). Say: "The Ruh (the spirit) is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord...

Muslim:  
1-Most commentators suggest the (spirit) was asking about here ,is the (soul) that is based on clues eg; (And they ask you concerning the Ruh.) Al-`Awfi reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "This was when the Jews said to the Prophet , `Tell us about the Ruh and how the Ruh will be punished that is in the body - for the Ruh is something about which only Allah knows, and there was no revelation concerning it.' He did not answer them at all, then Jibril came to him and said: (Say:The Ruh (the spirit) is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord. And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given only a little.'') So the Prophet told them about that, and they said, `Who told you this' He said, (Jibril brought it to me from Allah.) They said, `By Allah, no one has told you that except our enemy ﴿i.e., Jibril. Then Allah revealed (Say "Whoever is an enemy to Jibril (let him die in his fury), for indeed he has brought it (this Qur'an) down to your heart by Allah's permission, confirming what came before it.)'' ﴿2:97

2-Even if we ignore the narrations , the verse simply mentions the spirit(which has varied meanings) without revealing anything about its nature.So what are you looking for?  If the spirit is God ,God could have revealed that in the verse (or other verses)in simple clear words.

Offline Egyptian

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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2012, 11:48:00 AM »

The opposite is true ,we have several hints affirming the spirit as a creature..

A- The spirit not only is said to have A God, but also in complete submission to him....Just like angels (or being an angel) it won’t dare to move without God’s permission "The Night of Power is better than a thousand months. The angels and the Spirit descend therein by the permission of their God, with all decrees. Peace until the rising of the Dawn." 97:3-5

B - The spirit can’t even speak without God’s permission: "Lord of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, the Beneficent; with Whom none can argue. On the Day when the angels and the Spirit stand arrayed, they speak not, saving him whom the Beneficent allows and who speaks right. That is the True Day. So whoso will should seek recourse unto his Lord?" 78:38

C. The spirit can take the human form: "Then We sent unto her (Mary) Our spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a well built man.

D- He is called a messenger from God, not God:
Holy Quran 19:18She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God-fearing. He said: I am only a Messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.
The incarnation for an earthly mission and be called a messenger fits perfectly with the angels.  Holy Qur'an 6:9 And (even] if We had appointed an angel as Our message-bearer, We would certainly have made him [appear as] a man .

E- In the Qur'an ,Jesus is described as a spirit from Allah ,yet we know that he is created, not divine by any sense ,according to the Qur'an.


Christian: In verse 58:22:" He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever).
In order for the Spirit to be able to strengthen believers everywhere implies that the Spirit is omnipresent. Yet only God is omnipresent which essentially means that the Spirit is God.

Muslim : who told you that in order for a force to support the believers to be divine in essence? the holy spirit is supposed to provide extraordinary help in special situations not for everyone ,everywhere,every time ....... who would assume that Gabriel needs to be omnipresent in order to support some selected believers in some selected times ?!!.....



Offline Egyptian

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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2012, 01:13:32 PM »

                                         Mary, belong to the Trinity?


Christian:  what about the understanding that the trinity that the Quran is concerned about is , father, son, marry?
quran 5:119, reads: “And behold! God will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, “Worship me and my mother as gods instead of God”? He will say: “Glory to thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say).

Muslim: Nothing better than understanding the Qur'an by the Qur'an.....we need to check the verses with that use the same expression the expression is :

TO TAKE-WORSHIP اتخذوا  (X) , INSTEAD-IN DEROGATION OF  من دون (ALLAH) .....

 The formula (to take ....instead) is used inside and outside the context of worship....     Eg;
Holy Quran 27:55 "You are taking the men out of lust instead of the women! No, you are an ignorant people!"
Does the verse suggest those men as taking men for sexual pleasure besides women? Not at all ....The meaning is though they know the normal object for sexual intercourse (women) they approached the abnormal object(men) instead

The formula is used inside the context of worship in numerous instances

Holy Quran 27:24 I found her and her folk prostrating herself to the sun—instead of God—and Satan made to appear pleasing to them their actions and barred them from the way so they are not truly guided.

It seems that those folk could have thought the sun as God .

Holy Quran 39:38 If you should ask them who created Heaven and Earth, they would say: "God." SAY: "Have you (all) ever seen what you appeal to instead of  God [Alone]? If God wanted [to cause] me any trouble, would such females ever remove His trouble? Or if He wants some mercy for me, will such females hold back His mercy?" SAY: "God is [the Means] by Which I reckon; on Him do the reliant rely."

Holy Quran  10:18 They worship, instead of Allah, what can neither harm them nor help them, saying, ´These are our intercessors with Allah.´ Say: ´Would you inform Allah of something about which He does not know either in the heavens or on the earth?´ May He be glorified and exalted above what they associate with Him!

Holy Quran  36:23 Should I adopt other gods instead of Him? If the Mercy-giving should want any harm to me, their intercession would never help me out in any way nor would they rescue me:

Holy Quran  39:43 Or do they adopt intercessors instead of God? SAY: "Even though they do not control a thing and cannot even reason?"


we note that the previous objects of worship are (1) called gods .  (2) their worshipers didn't believe in them as God the creator ,they just intercede.



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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2012, 04:29:13 PM »
the same words (to take instead) are used in:

Holy Quran   9:31 They have taken  their learned men and their monks for their lords instead of God. So have they taken the Messiah, son of Mary, although they were commanded to worship only the One God. There is no deity but He. He is far above whatever they set up as His partners!

Have you seen,what the verse saying ?

1- your intentions should be consistent with your actions that counts ,it is not what you think you are doing but what you REALLY do.
2- veneration, asking for intercession etc . is considered worship in Islam even if the object of veneration is not believed to be divine…. It is enough that you direct any form of worship that is due to God alone for anyone, anything to turn him, her ,it to be god

2- though the objects of worshiped mentioned in the same verse viewed differently by their worshipers (Jesus as divine,saints are not) yet that is not the focus of the verse, the focus is on the act of worship itself, that is why it says " they were commanded to worship only the One God" ...

the same way with verse

Holy Quran 5:116 And as Allah said, "O Isa son of Maryam, (Jesus son of Mary) did you say to mankind, "Take me and my mother to your selves as two gods, apart fromAllah '?" He said, All Extolment be to You! In no way is it for me to say what I have no right to.


The verse is just one example of, the thought to be divine(Jesus) and the thought to be not divine yet could be intercessor and be venerated (Mary),be taken as gods ..
another verse

Holy Quran 3:64 SAY: "People of the Book, [let us] rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you, that we shall worship only God [Alone] a associate nothing else with Him, nor shall any of us take on others as lords instead of God." If they should turn away, then say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."

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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2012, 04:39:57 PM »

Christian: what about the Quran mention of Jesus and Mary eating food?


Muslim:

Quote from:  Kitkat21 ,Islamic view of the trinity,Wikipedia.....
I'm sorry but your arguments make a number of assumptions and liberal interpretations to reach your desired conclusions. First, you make the assumption that the argument the Koran is putting forward is that since Mary and Jesus eat food, neither is God. Therefore, the Koran believes Mary is part of the Trinity. However, the argument could be easily construed, since Mary and Jesus ate food, both are nothing but plain humans. This doesn't imply that Mary was part of the trinity Godhead in the Koranic view, but merely that in the Koranic view Christians viewed her as something aside from another plain human being. As is described in the article itself, some Christian sects truly worshiped her and the Church itself put her forth as Godbearer, which is more than just another human being. Indeed, Catholics continue to address prayers to her, an act that would be considered shirk in Islam (i.e., associating others with God). Hence, the Koranic argument need not be interpreted as anything more than that Jesus and Mary are both human beings.


Christian: where is in the Qur'an the holy spirit isn’t God and how do you explain nowhere in the Quran the worship of the holy spirit is condemned?


By saying the holy spirit is Gabriel ,created is negating the divinity, isn’t it?

you remember when I said that it seems that the Quran counts for ones actions in worship? Though Mary(saints also) is not thought divine yet worshiped, On the other hand the holy spirit is thought to be divine yet hardly is worshiped....

How many images, idols are those of Mary and Jesus is bowed to, prayed to ,asked for help and mercy compared to those of the holy spirit….

listen to the common prayers in the christian world:

"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
Lord Jesus help me protect me save me etc......"

or let's listen to the common prayers of the world's largest Christian church, with over a billion members.

"Most Holy Virgin Mary, Help of Christian,how sweet it is to come to your feet imploring your perpetual help.If earthly mothers cease not to remember their children,how can you, the most loving of all mothers forget me?Grant then to me, I implore you, your perpetual help in all my necessities, in every sorrow, and especially in all my temptations.I ask for your unceasing help for all who are now suffering.Help the weak, cure the sick, convert sinners.Grant through your intercessions many vocations to the religious life. Obtain for us, O Mary, Help of Christians,that having invoked you on earth we may love and eternally thank you in heaven."

"Holy Mary,help those in need,give strength to the weak,comfort the sorrowful,pray for God's people,assist the clergy,intercede for religious.Mary all who seek your help experience your unfailing protection.Amen."

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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2012, 05:05:39 PM »

will let the christian protestant (whom though they practice shirk themselves while praying to the human Jesus yet have the advantage of avoiding Mary and saints worship) voice speak ...

just a sample quotes:

Quote from: Roman Catholic Mary Worship by the evangelical minister John MacArthur Jr. 
The Roman Catholic view of Mary is pagan, it is utterly pagan.

Quote from: Philip Schaff Excerpted from: "History of the Christian Church": Volume III, Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity, A.D. 311-390 Chapter VII, P. 409-427 (§ 81.-83.)
To this day the worship of Mary is one of the principal points of separation between the Graeco-Roman Catholicism and Evangelical Protestantism.
the veneration of Mary gradually degenerated into the worship of Mary; and this took so deep hold upon the popular religious life in the Middle Age, that, in spite of all scholastic distinctions between latria, and dulia, and hyrerdulia, Mariolatry practically prevailed over the worship of Christ.
..The popular religious want had accustomed itself even to female deities, and very naturally betook itself first of all to Mary, the highly favored and blessed mother of the divine-human Redeemer, as the worthiest object of adoration.
The Festivals of Mary.
This mythical and fantastic, and, we must add, almost pagan and idolatrous Mariology impressed itself on the public cultus in a series of festivals, celebrating the most important facts and fictions of the life of the Virgin, and in some degree running parallel with the festivals of the birth, resurrection, and ascension of Christ.

Quote from: Roman Catholicism, Mary, and Idolatry ,by Matt Slick, President and Founder of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry.
Does the Roman Catholic Church promote idolatry? According to the scripture and its own practices, yes it does. "Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry," (1 Cor. 10:14).

 
Quote from: Nick Goggin
Watchmen Bible Study Group
It has been said that actions speak louder than words. And while the average Catholic may tell you that they do not worship the Mother Mary, their actions say something quite different. Let's examine the danger in this.


Offline Egyptian

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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2012, 05:14:42 PM »
Quote from: Seventh Day Adventist Michael Scheifler of Bible Light Ministries

THE WORSHIP OF THE VIRGIN MARY
 THE most popular form of idolatry that ever captivated the human heart is the worship of Mary. To the unwedded priest of  contemplative mind, Mary has every beauty, every charm, every divine grace. Pure enough to be the chosen mother of that human body in which Deity dwelt, unapproached in her unparalleled honors, chaste as the unspotted snow; she is the queen of his imagination, the ravishing idol of his heart. And as the mistress of his affections, he sings her praises, proclaims her glories, and gives her glowing homage. Those who fail to worship Mary, in his sight, are destitute of moral taste and perception; they are blind to beauty; they are governed by heartless ingratitude; they have no ear for the sweetest voice that ever fell on the ears of angels, or sent its thrilling melodies through the wounds of a bleeding heart.

Quote from: Pastor E.L. Bynum
Wherever Roman Catholics are found, you will find the practice of rank idolatry. The worship of Mary is one part of this unscriptural practice.

Quote from: Mary Ann Collins (A Former Catholic Nun)

As a faithful Catholic, and later as a nun, I practiced Mary worship for many years without realizing it.....................
If you want to see what a person's real priorities are, then watch what they do when their life, or the life of a loved one, is in danger. When Pope John Paul II was shot, while the ambulance was rushing him to the hospital, the Pope was not praying to God or calling on the name of Jesus. He kept saying, over and over, “Mary, my mother!” Polish pilgrims placed a picture of Our Lady of Czestochowa on the throne where the Pope normally sat. People gathered around the picture. Vatican loudspeakers broadcasted the prayers of the rosary. When the Pope recovered, he gave Mary all the glory for saving his life.......
If you are not persuaded that Catholicism encourages and even requires a level of “devotion” to Mary that really is a form of worship, then I challenge you to ask God what He thinks about it.


Offline Egyptian

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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2012, 05:37:35 PM »

Quote from: Cutting Edge christian Ministries
While Catholics believe they are venerating the Virgin Mary and Divine Child Jesus in the Biblical tradition, the evidence is overwhelming that they are really continuing the Egyptian and Babylonian pagan tradition of worshipping the Sun Goddess and her Divine Son. Once more, Roman Catholicism is shown to be counterfeit Christianity on the surface but Sun God paganism throughout underneath!



Offline Egyptian

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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2012, 05:43:22 PM »

















Offline Egyptian

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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2012, 05:55:33 PM »
You still wonder, why the worship of Jesus ,Mary and the saints is being attacked rather than the holy spirit? !!!!



to conclude the point of Mary ,let's quote a non Muslim objective writer

Quote from: Professor David Thomas ,Encyclopaedia of the Qur’an
verse 5:73 attacks the notion that God could have partners in his divinity. The teaching in this verse is certainly that Christians place other beings alongside the true God. If it is taken in its context, the implication can be drawn from q 5:72 and 75 that one of these is Jesus, while from the firm emphasis on his and his mother's human needs in q 5:75 (“Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger [q.v.]… and his mother was a woman of truth [q.v.]; they had both to eat food”; see food and drink; prophets and prophethood ), it is even possible to infer that the other was Mary
Whether or not this is the intention in q 5:73, the second reference in the Qurān to three deities makes such an accusation explicit. This is in q 5:116: “And behold! God will say: ‘O Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say to people (al-nās), “Take me and my mother for two gods beside God?”’ He will say, ‘Glory to you ! Never could I say what I had no right .’” In what is intended as an eschatological interrogation of Jesus, God brings up a claim evidently associated with him, that he encouraged people to regard himself and Mary as gods besides God (min dūni llāh). The implication is that Christians made him the source of the wrong belief they hold Strictly speaking, this verse need not be read as a reference to a version of the Trinity but rather as an example of shirk, claiming divinity for beings other than God . As such, it could be understood as a warning against excessive devotion to Jesus and extravagant veneration of Mary, a reminder linked to the central theme of the Qurān that there is only one God and he alone is to be worshiped. .


Offline mYucesan

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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2012, 06:16:46 PM »
Jazakallah Khair for sharing this brother, Inch'Allah I will read it completely, but at the moment kind of busy.

Offline Final Overture

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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2012, 07:09:48 PM »
Edward Gibbon in his book The History of The Decline & Fall Of The Roman Empire says:

Quote
The Christians of the seventh century had insensibly relapsed into a semblance of paganism: their public and private vows were addressed to the relics and images that disgraced the temples of the East: the throne of the Almighty was darkened by the clouds of martyrs, and saints, and angels, the objects of popular veneration; and the Collyridian heretics, who flourished in the fruitful soil of Arabia, invested the Virgin Mary with the name and honours of a goddess.
From http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/marytrin.html
«We were the lowest of all people and then Allah gave us glory by Islam, and if we seek glory in anything other that what Allah has given us, Allah will disgrace us.» Umar ibn Khattab

Offline Egyptian

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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2012, 06:45:22 AM »

welcome and Jazakumallah kharan brothers mYucesan and Final Overture ....

and May Allah strengthen us to make our best efforts in worship,in the last greatest days in Ramdan...  Ameen


Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2013, 10:26:58 AM »
Understanding the GODHEAD. Just as I am a mother, a daughter, and a wife...just because I act in a mother role at one time does not discount that I am still a daughter and a wife. To me God is the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Offline The Canadian Atheist

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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2013, 10:57:13 AM »
I know. I've studied astrotheology and read several books on Horus. But what's ironic is that Egyptian himself has a Sun disguised in his profile picture. So sad...:(

Offline Egyptian

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Re: My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2013, 07:25:02 AM »
Understanding the GODHEAD. Just as I am a mother, a daughter, and a wife...just because I act in a mother role at one time does not discount that I am still a daughter and a wife. To me God is the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit.

welcome GIMS  to the thread , but I think your comment is irrelevant to the thread .....   nowhere the irreationality of the trinity is addressed in my thread ....
anyway ,your reasoning and analogy is improper with the so called Godhead trinity !!!
though you act differently as a mother,daughter,wife ,still the same being ...... but you have all the way your qualities ,eg;knowledge ... would you as a mother know the date of your birth ,and don't know it as a wife?!!!!!!!!

the same way God knows everything

1 John 3:20  God ... knoweth all things.

yet jesus not .....

Matthew 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

in other words he lacked a quality possessed by God ...   The trinity is irrational " though that is not my approach to criticise the trinity) .....

for those who are fond of rationalizing the trinity ,I invite them to read the following deabte letters ,between Dennis McKinsey
and James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries....


Quote from: Dennis McKinsey , Errancy

Letter #432 from James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries of Phoenix, Arizona (Part a)

Dear Mr. McKinsey.  I felt that some of your comments should be addressed.The main thing to be noted in your response of September, 1990 was your continued misunderstanding of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. It is one thing to disagree with the Trinity; but it is obvious that you do not even have a basic understanding of the doctrine itself. You had alleged in the December, 1989 issue of BE that Jesus' statement in John 5:37 ("And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape") is contradicted by visions of Jehovah God in the OT. I pointed out that this is not so; that Jesus is speaking of the Father in John 5:37, and the One who is seen in the OT is the Son, Jesus Christ. Your response was typical of those who refuse to listen to what their opposition is saying. You wrote, "If you can use the Trinity at will, so can I. God and Jesus are identical, remember!" Please feel free to "use" the Trinity if you would like, but might I suggest that you learn what the doctrine is before you commit yourself to print? God and Jesus are identical? What does that mean? The doctrine of the Trinity states that there is one eternal being of God that is shared fully by three eternal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Any person who would even glance at (for example) the Athanasian creed would know that the doctrine differentiates between the terms "being" and "person." One being, three persons. The Father is not the Son, Mr. McKinsey. So, your statement, "God and Jesus are identical, remember" is a meaningless one, only showing an abysmal lack of understanding of the doctrine itself. When you say the "text is guilty of a blatant lie" you are only showing how blatant is your ignorance of that which you seem only overjoyed to attack. When Jesus (the Son) said that no one had seen God's form or heard His voice, He was referring to the Father, and since it was the Son who was seen and heard in the OT, no contradiction exists, since the Son is not the Father.... I don't expect you to admit an error--you seemingly view yourself as being as inerrant as I believe the Scriptures to be--but others read your materials, and for their benefit I point out your error.


Dear Mr. White. You began your monologue on the Trinity with the comment that I "do not even have a basic understanding of the doctrine itself." That is relatively easy to understand since neither you nor anyone else does either. The only human being who could understand the Trinity would be someone who could also visualize a square circle or a two-sided triangle. There is nothing to understand since the entire concept is preposterous on its face. Yes, Jesus is God; no he is man. Since that makes no sense, it is immediately changed to: No, he is the god/man, man and god simultaneously. And since that makes no sense either, many Christians are candid enough to admit it's a "mystery" that can't be understood by anybody. It has to be taken on faith. You claim that within the Godhead or "being" are three persons, each of which is God, but there is only one God. You have three distinct entities all of whom are God. That's three gods and the word "persons" can't be used to hide that fact. Moreover, you play a shell-game with the word "God," "being," or "Godhead." On the one hand, it represents a general term encompassing the persons within the Trinity and when expediency dictates it is immediately switched to represent an actual being whom you call God. Christians are often accused of being tritheists, believers in three gods--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. When they try to turn the "Godhead" into a being, they could just as well be called quartheists. The Father is God; Jesus is God; the Holy Ghost is God, and the Godhead, or "being" as you call it, is God. What an absurdity! To make matters worse, you ignore all the biblical verses that clearly say God is one and indivisible. There is none like him nor is there any beside him. He is a unity.

You say, "learn what the doctrine is before you commit yourself to print," while I suggest you learn what the doctrine is not before you commit yourself to pap. The doctrine is not rational in any sense of the term. It is a hopeless muddle that must be taken on pure faith. There is nothing rational or logical involved. And for you to imply there is, only exposes the duplicity to which Christian apologists will go to foster an image at odds with reality. You say that "the doctrine of the Trinity states that there is one eternal being of God that is shared fully by three eternal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit." Stop and think about what you just said, James. What does the metaphysical concept "shared fully" mean? You mean you have a being within a being? How could a being be within another being? Parasites live within other beings but they are still separate and distinct. They are in no sense the same being as you say God and Jesus are. You say that "any person who would even glance at (for example) the Athanasian creed would know that the doctrine differentiates between the terms 'being' and 'person'." No it doesn't. It merely says there is a difference. It doesn't prove it or even attempt to do so. It doesn't define it. It doesn't even quote scripture to prove it or show were scripture makes such a distinction. Even if the Bible made such an assertion, logic is clearly to the contrary. It merely says as much and you are suppose to believe. The Catholic Church wrote that creed and you have swallowed it completely. That's pure, blind faith, my friend. Incidentally, according to your rendition of John 1:18 ("No man has seen God at any time, the unique God, who is in the bosom of the Father...") the Father encompasses God, not the other way around. Consequently, if either one is greater than the other, then the Father must be greater than God.

You say, "The Father is not the son, Mr. McKinsey." There you go again, off into the wild blue yonder. Is Jesus God? According to you, yes. Is the Father God? According to you, yes. Therefore, James, if you will consult a basic logic book you will learn the simplicity of your error. Two things equal to a third are equal to each other. If Jesus is God and the Father is God, then, it logically follows that Jesus is identical to the Father. You say, "The Father is not the Son." Oh, yes he is! Under your line of reasoning, he has to be. I can remember debating several fundamentalists many years ago on this point. They said Jesus is God and the Father is God, but that does not mean Jesus and the Father are the same. An analogous situation according to them is that a cat is an animal and a dog is an animal, but that doesn't mean a cat is a dog. The error of their ways lies in the fact that they failed to realize that "cat" is not equal to "animal." Neither is "dog." Jesus, however, is identical to God and so is the Father. Therefore, Jesus and the Father must be identical to each other. Moreover, the word "animal" does not represent a "being" or "person." Like the word "Godhead" it's nothing more than a general term, a rubric, a category like the words "mankind" or "humanity." It does not refer to a specific, living being or person of some sort. You can talk to the latter; you can't converse with an abstraction. You can talk to a beautiful lady; but you can't converse with beauty.

To put it another way, either Jesus is God or he isn't. If he is God as you claim, then God and Jesus are identical. Otherwise they differ in some respect, in which case he couldn't be God. If they differ in any respect, be it ever so minute, then he lacks a quality possessed by God or vice versa. What you want is for two things to be the same but not be identical. Here, again, your muddle is exposed. If two things are the same, then they are identical. If they differ in any respect, whatever, then they are neither the same nor identical. Plainly put, if Jesus is not the same as God, then he isn't God.



Letter #477 from James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries in Phoenix, Arizona (Part a)
Dear Mr. McKinsey.... The majority of your attempted response to my discussion of the Trinity takes the form of nothing but ridicule. You claim that no one understands the Trinity (seemingly, since you don't understand it, then no one else does, either). You state, "The only human being who could understand the Trinity would be someone who could also visualize a square circle or a two-sided triangle." This, of course, assumes your conclusion: that the Trinity is self-contradictory. But asserting what you wish to prove accomplishes nothing (though it will certainly impress some).


Editor's Response to Letter #477 (Part a)

Dear James. You are at it again. When will you ever learn? In the first place, your comment that my discussion of the Trinity takes the form of nothing but ridicule is utterly without merit and completely specious. The fact of the matter is that I deal in logic and you think of that as ridicule. I can't help but paraphrase Harry Truman who said, "I don't give them hell; I just tell them the truth and they think it is hell." Secondly, your comment that "this, of course, assumes your conclusion: that the Trinity is self-contradictory" is completely without standing. There is no assumption involved. It is contradictory and that is a fact. Thirdly, you fancy yourself well-read in apologetic literature but are apparently unaware of the fact that most of your own compatriots don't deny that the Trinity is a concept that defies logic and must be taken on faith alone. One can only assume that you are suffering under the laughable delusion that you are superior to those who have gone before. Many apologists not only admit there are no proof texts for the doctrine but freely admit the entire concept is incomprehensible. Support for this assertion is not hard to find. On page 168 in 508 Answers to Bible Questions apologist M.R. DeHaan states that, "The Trinity, that is, three persons in one is a mystery which is revealed in the Bible but cannot be understood by the human mind. Since man is finite, and God is infinite, this is one of those things which must be accepted by faith, even though it cannot be reasoned out. The Trinity cannot be explained but it must be believed because the Bible teaches it throughout." On page 55 of Basic Theology professor Ryrie of Dallas Theological Seminary alleges that, "Even with all the discussion and delineation that we attempt in relation to the Trinity, we must acknowledge that it is in the final analysis a mystery. We accept all the data as truth even though they go beyond our understanding." On page 25 in Essential Christianity apologist Walter Martin says, "No man can fully explain the Trinity, though in every age scholars have propounded theories and advanced hypotheses to explore this mysterious Biblical teaching. But despite the worthy efforts of these scholars, the Trinity is still largely incomprehensible to the mind of man." On page 19 in The Bible Has the Answer apologists Morris and Clark state that, "the mystery of the Trinity is beyond the capacity of our finite and limited minds to comprehend." Later, on page 41 in the same book Morris and Clark state that, "the mystery of the divine-human nature of Christ is beyond our finite understanding.... The Bible simply presents as fact the great truth that Jesus Christ was both God and man. It does not try to explain how this could be, because it is inexplicable. It must be apprehended on faith alone,...." If you'll note, James, your fellow fundamentalists make no attempt to defend the concept rationally. Believers are told to believe it without understanding simply because the Bible says so. On pages 112 and 113 in Almah or Young Woman apologist Lawlor says, "All the difficulties and problems surrounding the mystery of the person of Christ will never be solved. The great difficulty is that of understanding how the Lord could have but one personality when he possessed two real natures, divine and human. How can these natures be united in the one Person? This is the "mystery of godliness.... There are some matters that are beyond us, which we shall never totally comprehend." "Totally comprehend"! Any Christian would be happy to be able to comprehend even a minute part thereof. Lawlor concludes, "we must finally fall upon our faces before the mystery of the eternal, almighty god in Christ, having come in flesh, and confess that we cannot explain Him." "Explain him"! Any Christian would be happy to even understand the Trinity, much less explain it. Talk about blind, unquestioning faith! The concept makes no sense; they admit it makes no sense, but we are to believe it, regardless. The problem lies not in the fact that it can't be understood by me but that it can't be understood by anyone, period. In the thick tome entitled Catholic Dogma, the catholic apologist Ludwig Ott says on page 75, "The dogma of the Trinity is, in fact, beyond reason.... Human reason cannot fathom the mystery of the Blessed Trinity even after the dogma has been revealed by God." So, you see James your incessant argument that I deny the Trinity because I can't understand it is pure Christian propagandistic rubbish and I wish to hear it no longer. You have prated that prattle long enough. If you can't come up with anything better, I suggest that you come up with nothing at all. Enough is enough. My patience in teetering on the edge of incivility. You'd do well to remember what Abe Lincoln said about keeping your mouth closed?

Quote from: The Canadian Atheist
I know. I've studied astrotheology and read several books on Horus. But what's ironic is that Egyptian himself has a Sun disguised in his profile picture. So sad


It is me who is sad to find your post,lacking elaboration.?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 07:35:12 AM by Egyptian »