Author Topic: Jeremias 20:15  (Read 25139 times)

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Offline Egyptian

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2012, 07:37:42 AM »
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible: Borun is to thee a knave child. - Old MS. Bible. This is the old English word for man or servant; and is so used by Wiclif, Revelation 12:6.
 

what has the word "knave child" to do with the original Hebrew text ?



You see if I read this verse from your same source it would have never caught my attention, my guess that you have the simplified  version.

whatever version ,remains the same CLEAR meaning " good news of a new born male to Jeremiah's father "


Barnes' Notes on the Bible:

There is a man child conceived - Hebrew גבר geber - "a man;" compare John 16:21. The word "conceived" Dr. Good renders "brought forth" So Herder translates it. The Septuagint, Ἰδοὺ ἄρσεν Idou arsen - "lo, a male" The common translation expresses the true sense of the original. The joy at the birth of a male in Oriental countries is much greater than that at the birth of a female.


Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Cursed be the man who brought tidings to my father,.... The word signifies commonly good tidings, as the news of a child born, and especially a man child, is to its parent. The Septuagint use the same word the angel did, when he brought the tidings of the birth of Christ, Luke 2:10.


NIV - Cursed be the man who brought my father the news, who made him very glad, saying, “A child is born to you—a son!”
ASV - 15 Cursed be the man who brought tidings to my father, saying, “A manchild is born unto thee,” making him very glad.
AMP bible.15 Cursed be the man who brought the tidings to my father, saying, A son is born to you!—making him very glad.
NLT - I curse the messenger who told my father, “Good news—you have a son!”
YLT [/b]Cursed [is] the man who bore tidings [to] my father, saying, `Born to thee hath been a child -- a male,' Making him very glad!
CJB A curse on the man who brought the news to my father, “A son has been born to you!” —thus making him very happy.
 Cursed be the one who delivered the news to my father, “You have a son!”— filling him with joy.




I also looked into other commentaries :Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament
In the curse on the man that brought the father the news of the birth, the stress lies on the clause, "who made him very glad,"


so what?!


Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible:

What is the meaning of this? Does there proceed out of the same mouth blessing and cursing? Could he that said so cheerfully (v. 13), Sing unto the Lord, praise you the Lord, say so passionately (v. 14), Cursed be the day wherein I was born? How shall we reconcile these?.


Valid questions, You read the commentaries ,yet ignore what  Matthew Henry and all the other commentators suggested:

1- that the words could have been transposed.

2- the Prophet describes what had passed through his own mind, the experience of good men proves that such sudden changes occur.  The Prophet, indeed, acknowledged God's kindness in saving his life, and invited others to join him in praising him: yet when he considered his circumstances, he gave way to his own natural feelings.

3- when in great anguish of spirit; very likely when so ill used by Pashur, as before related; but here repeated, to show in what distress he had been, and what reason there was for praise and thanksgiving; for the words may be connected with the preceding, thus, "for he hath delivered from the hand of evil doers the soul of the poor, who said" (l), in the time of his distress, "cursed be the day", &c; but, whenever it was spoke, it showed the impatience of the prophet, the weakness of his faith, and the greatness of his folly, to curse a day, and his birth day too, as Job did, when under affliction, Job 3:1.

4- The cursing of the day of his birth, or of his life, after the preceding exaltation to hopeful assurance is not psychologically inconceivable. It may well be understood, if we but think of the two parts of the lamentation as not following one another in the prophet's soul in such immediate succession as they do in the text; if we regard them as spiritual struggles, separated by an interval of time, through which the prophet must successively pass. In vanquishing the temptation that arose from the plots of his enemies against his life, Jeremiah had a strong support in the promise which the Lord gave him at his call, that those who strove against him should not prevail against him; and the deliverance out of the hand of Pashur which he had just experience, must have given him an actual proof that the Lord was fulfilling His promise. The feeling of this might fill the trembling heart with strength to conquer his temptation, and to elevate himself again, in the joyful confidence of faith, to the praising of the Lord, who delivers the soul of the poor from the hand of the ungodly. But the power of the temptation was not finally vanquished by the renewal of his confidence that the Lord will defend him against all his foes. The unsuccess of his mission might stir up sore struggles in his soul, and not only rob him of all heart to continue his labours, but excite bitter discontent with a life full or hardship and sorrow - a discontent which found vent in his cursing the day of his birth.


it is well known to us in the eastern region that our men find it shameful to even let the brother of the wife be around during delivery of a baby, it was always the duty of women and Jeremiah should have said what is accustomed.


1- How do you know that the man who congratulated Jeremiah's father of a new born male child, attended the delivery ?! why should we think that Jeremiah's father was waiting beside the place where his wife delivered the baby Jeremiah?
the man who brought the news of birth could have heard it from those delivered the baby then brought t to Jeremiah,isn't it?

2- should we rewrite the text of Jeremiah or accept what it actually says "even if it might seem absurd" ?


It is difficult to comprehend, no matter what the context was, how suddenly from singing and praising the Lord he started cursing himself and the man who brought the news

Even if we ignore the solutions to such difficulty proposed by the commentaries I quoted ,still it is improper to impose a conjectural baseless meaning on the text. 


Prophets are chosen people with good morals and patience. Prophet Joseph was persecuted by his brothers then he stayed in the prison for so many years, he never cursed, he was patient he was the symbol of virtues .


Was Jeremiah a prophet ? may be. 

 Does the book of Jeremiah belong the corpus of the scripture that the Quran affirms to be the word of God? no .
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 01:35:34 PM by Egyptian »

Offline Final Overture

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2012, 09:41:22 AM »
Jeremiah was not your, or any muslim's, prophet. No one ever asked you, or any muslim to accept him as a prophet. Jeremiah didn't come to warn muslims. Jeremiah was sent to warn Jews. So, I don't understand how that verse in the bible can bother any muslim.
Wasn't a prophet, you say? Qur'an 4:164 "Of some messengers We have already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;-"
So, why not?
«We were the lowest of all people and then Allah gave us glory by Islam, and if we seek glory in anything other that what Allah has given us, Allah will disgrace us.» Umar ibn Khattab

Offline Antiaparteid

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2012, 08:18:01 AM »
Most non jehova witness christians know very well that when a johova witness knocks on their door they turn the witness away. Now, as a muslim, daughter of islam should know that when someone from another religious denomination comes knocking, she should turn them away. Why would a muslim take a christians advice to read a bible, when a muslim knows very well from what she's been taught that the bible is corrupt? Why do muslims have such an obsession with the bible they believe to be corrupt? And where is the uncorrupted gospel and uncorrupted torah they claim existed thousands of years ago? And why didn't the caliphs leave a copy of those uncorrupted books? And why didn't muhammad ask his own scribe to write the quran? And where was muhammad when aisha was talking to other men who narrated the ahadith if she was following hijab as one of the prophet's wives?

Offline Egyptian

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2012, 05:25:33 PM »
Why would a Muslim take a christians advice to read a bible, when a muslim knows very well from what she's been taught that the bible is corrupt?

because Daughter of Islam is not an idiot , she is intelligent, and needs to study the bible to know upon what basis the Qur'an accuses the bible as corrupted.....
the same way should be my approach and all the prudent Muslims...

where is the uncorrupted gospel and uncorrupted torah they claim existed thousands of years ago?


You have no idea of what the Quran define the term "Torah" and "injeel"

the following quotation is from a future thread I'm planning to post later inshallah..



Injeel ?


1- A revelation was sent to Jesus, as a guidance and light, confirmation yet modifying few items of the Law that had come before him, to make clear to Jews some of the (points) on which they dispute, a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God, verses 5:046,3:50 ,43:63 ...

2 - It HAS TO BE mostly the saying parts of the the synoptic gospels

Holy Quran[007:157] "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Torah and the Injil;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."


the Quran though tells that both the books were tampered with(we have exposed that in previous posts),yet most the truth has remained therein .....
the verse is not telling christians,Jews to go look up a passage (s) in a lost gospel .....

the Injeel is mostly within the new testament .... why mostly? The Quran quotes the Injeel (besides the torah),directly ?

Holy Quran[009:111] God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Torah, the Injil, and the Quran'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God?


Holy Quran [048:029] Muhammad is the apostle of God; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from God and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Injil is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. God has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.


Are such promise & proverb to be found in the Old and New Testament?

if they are not there, then the Saying gospel (which is within the New testament) is missing some parts.....

If the following modifications of the Law were parts of the Injeel, and no mention about them in the saying gospel, then we can be assured of missing parts in the saying gospel that are parts of the Injeel .....

Holy Quran 3:50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

Holy Quran 43:63 When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me..
that is why I said the Injeel is MOSTLY within the saying gospel ..




note for Antiaparteid ,plz don't throw many questions in just one thread ...you can make a thread for each anti islamic question you would love to...

« Last Edit: September 15, 2012, 08:57:30 PM by Egyptian »

Offline Final Overture

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2012, 05:29:54 PM »
Most non jehova witness christians know very well that when a johova witness knocks on their door they turn the witness away.
What JW have to do with the topic?
Quote
Why would a muslim take a christians advice to read a bible, when a muslim knows very well from what she's been taught that the bible is corrupt?
And? It has some truth also.
Quote
And where is the uncorrupted gospel and uncorrupted torah they claim existed thousands of years ago?
They just got corrupted. Yes, that easy.
Quote
And why didn't the caliphs leave a copy of those uncorrupted books?
Cause they didn't have it.
Quote
And why didn't muhammad ask his own scribe to write the quran? And where was muhammad when aisha was talking to other men who narrated the ahadith if she was following hijab as one of the prophet's wives?
What?

P.S. I don't really think that Injeel is Gospels. Cause Injeel was given to Jesus by Allah Himself, not written after Jesus' death.
«We were the lowest of all people and then Allah gave us glory by Islam, and if we seek glory in anything other that what Allah has given us, Allah will disgrace us.» Umar ibn Khattab

Offline Antiaparteid

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2012, 09:57:54 AM »
Come on, now, my comments aren't anti-islamic. My comments are just objective. You still haven't answered my question about Aisha.

Offline Egyptian

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2012, 01:13:58 PM »
Come on, now, my comments aren't anti-islamic. My comments are just objective. You still haven't answered my question about Aisha.


Come on, start a new thread about your question ,and don't forget to quote a textual support ,in order for the readers to consider your question as truly objective...

Offline Antiaparteid

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2012, 12:22:58 AM »
I'm tired of this. I feel that instead of questioning and debating our religions, we should practice them. I'm beginning to feel like a sinner. From now on my holy books will be my math and science dictionaries.

I believe we must be secular in our social lives. Religion is personal and optional. Beliefs affect those who believe in them.Some children believe in ghosts or monsters in the dark. Their beliefs makes them fear the dark. The parents of these children don't believe in ghosts or monsters of the dark so they are not afraid of the dark. But, I'm sure that it is stressful for a parent to deal with children with those beliefs.

Our (every person's) beliefs can't affect other people. But, many times we are unfair and force our beliefs onto others. It is really unfair.

Whether you believe in the theory of evolution or the story of creation or life after death, or reincarnation, you should not burden others with your beliefs.

I had fun, participating in this forum. But, in my opinion, for me, it is really sinful.

I don't think my first question was, or will ever be answered, according to sharia law. This has taught me that the sharia doesn't have all the answeres.

Every muslim should find out for him/herself what islam really mean; and what it means to be muslim.

Every muslim women must ask, herself and allah, if being muslim means getting half a man's share; being rendered being half mentally adept; having to share a husband; etc. If allah could bless marium with a son immaculately, how much more can he bless you as a woman? With allah, anything is possible. We, as women don't have to submit to men. Only submit to allah. He could if he wanted give you a child without using a man's sperm; give you food in abundance without your having ever worked a day in your life or having been someone's wife. Amin.

Muslims like to ask christians questions, to question christianity. But, muslims should question muslims about islam. Question the dictatorship. Question the discrimination. Question the bloodshed. Question the poverty. Question the characters of the muslim scholars.

Offline RamziBinNabil

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2012, 08:31:50 AM »
Antiaparteid, the difference between Islam and all other religions is that, in Islam, you can actually prove the existence of Allâh, the Most Glorified and Exalted, whereas in other religions, it is only blind faith without any kind of proof.

Offline RamziBinNabil

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2012, 08:37:21 AM »
`Â'isha (may Almighty Allâh be pleased with her), being the wife of the Messenger of Allâh (may Almighty Allâh bless him and grant him peace), is one of the most knowlegable scholars of Islam and one of the closest to the Sunnah of the Prophet (may Almighty Allâh bless him and grant him peace). Men used to ask her religious questions and questions about what the Messenger of Allâh (may Almighty Allâh bless him and grant him peace) would do as she was his wife.

Offline RamziBinNabil

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Re: Jeremias 20:15
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2012, 10:50:05 AM »
What was Antiaparteid's first question anyway?