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Offline Mediator

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Expanding earth and human size
« on: October 04, 2012, 08:14:14 AM »
As an Atheist, science fulfill my expectation more than religion. It is also about science that i am so fond of studying Islam more than Christianity and Judaism.

Recently i found that science had presumed the earth was expanding while its life form were getting smaller because of the increase level of gravity as the earth grew bigger.

This discovery once again connect science with the Quran which mention about the gigantic size of Adam. If all of this expansion evolution proof to be true, i will like to know why there's no oversize human bones to be discovered like those of Dinosaurs. It seems that the tallest human ever record in history is of genetically abnormal.

Thanks!

Offline Egyptian

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2012, 10:36:26 AM »
Greetings mediator .... and welcome to the forum ...

This discovery once again connect science with the Quran which mention about the gigantic size of Adam.


The Quran doesn't mention anything about the size of Adam or anyone else....
the gigantic size of Adam is based upon a tradition though included in esteemed sunna collections eg;bukhari  yet ,some scholars question the authenticy of such tradition , they argue that such tradition is most probable not from the prophet's own words but the listeners of the narrator Abu Hurrairah confused his words that he received via Ka'ab al-Ahbar (a controversal Jewish convert to Islam)  with what he received from the prophet .....

the argument contains great details , just I made it in brief... If any needs more details plz ask me.

regards
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 10:45:29 AM by Egyptian »

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2012, 12:22:16 PM »
Peace be upon you Mediator,

Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/adam_90_feet_tall.htm.  This article covers the Expanding of the Earth Miracle in the Glorious Quran, and the size of Adam, peace be upon him, Miracle in the Hadiths.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline Mediator

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2012, 12:10:24 AM »
Thanks and Peace be upon you all.

The article gave detail explanation but it still did not answer my question about oversize bones.

People who deny Darwin's theory of "ape>man" have the speculation why there's no intermediate species to be seen. So people will be questioning Islam too about the intermediate giant or at least their remains.

Do Muslim scholars actually agree or disagree about Adam's gigantic size?

Egyptian and Brother Osama, please give me more detail and reference.

Thanks!

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2012, 12:24:58 AM »
Quote
Thanks and Peace be upon you all.

The article gave detail explanation but it still did not answer my question about oversize bones.

People who deny Darwin's theory of "ape>man" have the speculation why there's no intermediate species to be seen. So people will be questioning Islam too about the intermediate giant or at least their remains.

Do Muslim scholars actually agree or disagree about Adam's gigantic size?

Egyptian and Brother Osama, please give me more detail and reference.

Thanks!


Peace be upon you Mediator,

Please read my article and watch the Videos and read the Scientific references that I gave from NASA, Harvard Univerity and other Scientific Institutions that state:

1-  The smaller the planet, the lesser its gravity will be, and hence the larger and taller the bodies will be on it.

2-  Planet earth used to be 10% of its current size today.

3-  Life on earth, as we know it and as we live it, began 3.8 billion years ago.  Earth is 4.6 billion years old.

That should answer your inquiry.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline Abd-Al-Rahman

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2012, 01:19:26 AM »
Assalamu Aleikum brother Osama,

I was actually wondering the same thing Mediator is asking about, which is if there had been found or discovered any remnants of giant human skeletons gradually decreasing from Prophet Adam (pbuh) to the current "modern" human size of today (or if any valid detailed explanation had been made on the subject as to why no such skeletons had been found if so is the case).

However I never really delved too deep into the matter or paid too much attention to it, but it seems maybe brother Egyptian is referring to the great height of Prophet Adam (pbuh) and humans back then in general maybe being a weak narration?

There are probably many other questions that may be asked, the article's analysis proved well enough from the Quran that the Earth had indeed expanded, however what are your thoughts on extremely tall human bodies gradually decreasing in size as the Earth expanded being found under ground exactly like dinosaur fossils etc for instance?

Wassalamu Aleikum.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 01:27:48 AM by Abd-Al-Rahman »

Offline RamziBinNabil

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2012, 11:56:28 AM »
Mediator, see this website: www.miraclesofthequran.com;D
The same person that wrote this book on the website, Harun Yahya, writes a specific chapter in every single one of his books against the theory of Darwinism and gives evidence of why it is wrong.

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2012, 12:20:14 PM »
Quote
I was actually wondering the same thing Mediator is asking about, which is if there had been found or discovered any remnants of giant human skeletons gradually decreasing from Prophet Adam (pbuh) to the current "modern" human size of today (or if any valid detailed explanation had been made on the subject as to why no such skeletons had been found if so is the case).

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Abd-Al-Rahman and Everyone,

In regards to bodies or skeletons not being found that could date that old, I believe because they've already turned into fossil fuel (oil).  It's been proven though that the earth was much much smaller than what it is now, and that it kept on expanding.  This is also what the Glorious Quran claims.  And Scientists have also claimed and proven that the smaller the planet, the lesser its gravity will be, and because of that, the bodies that are on it will be taller and larger.

Again, please watch the videos and read the quotes that I've provided in the link above.  Us not finding skeletons that date back billions of years ago isn't proof that the claims are false.

I hope this helps.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline Mediator

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2012, 07:25:38 AM »
Mediator, see this website: www.miraclesofthequran.com;D
The same person that wrote this book on the website, Harun Yahya, writes a specific chapter in every single one of his books against the theory of Darwinism and gives evidence of why it is wrong.

Thanks alot RamziBinNabil, that site is great.



Offline Mediator

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2012, 07:44:20 AM »

Again, please watch the videos and read the quotes that I've provided in the link above.  Us not finding skeletons that date back billions of years ago isn't proof that the claims are false.


It's very compromising because the Jurassic exist longer than human yet their remains are found. I'm not expecting people to find the skeletons of the first generation human but why there's no trace of the intermediate ones maybe around 20,000 to 200,000 years ago. Looks like i just have to miss the bone... :'(

If the earth is really expanding, then the period of its rotation which conjunction to the moon's will change, so as its surface that expose to the sun.
Does this have anything to do with Muslim calendar which is shorter than the international one?

Thanks.

Offline There is only one God

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2012, 05:55:25 AM »
Large tools that could've only been wielded
 by large humans have been found
a 47 inch femur has been found

http://rense.com/general79/giants.htm
http://garry-nelson.hubpages.com/hub/Human-Giants

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2012, 07:23:38 AM »
Egyptian , the source for our knowledge is Quran and the sayings of the prophet peace upon him . And we must trust in them . If there isn't a valid proof that the saying in Bukhari is untrusted , then nobody has the right to claim so . And you should remember that there are somethings which remained correct in the books of Jews and Christians . So if these things match Quran and Sunnah , then we accept them . If they don't , we deny them . And anyway , it wouldn't harm us :) They really found bones and pictures of giant humans . Unless the pictures are fake or untrusted , this proves it as a fact .

And I don't think there's a connection between the expanding of Earth and the size of humans . Actually , I believe that the ,ass of Earth was the same all along ( If not then correct me :) ) but it simply expanded - As says Quran - like a balloon . And if the planet was smaller then the gravity will be stronger because all of it would be focused on a small place ( Again , if I'm mistaken then correct me ) . So I think that the size of Earth isn't the reason for humans to keep shrinking .

In conclusion :

1 - It isn't acceptable to claim the saying is incorrect without evidence .
2 - Giant fossils and bones of humans were truly discovered ( Unless these pictures are all fake which I doubt )
3 - I hope this was helpful :)

Offline Egyptian

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2012, 11:21:42 AM »
Egyptian , the source for our knowledge is Quran and the sayings of the prophet peace upon him . And we must trust in them If there isn't a valid proof that the saying in Bukhari is untrusted , then nobody has the right to claim so . .

I absolutely agree with you ... I'm not a shia or Quran alone muslim ,to disagree with you.

But the point ,is though the highly position of his collection,and his strict approach to choose his material , very few of his narrations was questioned .....

And you should remember that there are somethings which remained correct in the books of Jews and Christians . So1- if these things match Quran and Sunnah , then we accept them . If they don't , we deny them .

to add :
2- If these things match the certain well establieshed historical facts.
3- If these things match the certain well established scientific facts.


They really found bones and pictures of giant humans . Unless the pictures are fake or untrusted

There is no trustworthy proof of remains of giant humans (where is that museum having such skeletons?!!!)

1 - It isn't acceptable to claim the saying is incorrect without evidence .



The evidence exists ,though it needs a thread wholly dedicated , still I would like to give outline....

well, those who question the narrations of the creation of Adam and other few narrations mention issues of the unseen ,narrated by Abu Hurrairah , base their criticism on some points ,but before discussing it , we need to make the following note as our starting point:


1- In Sahih Muslim collection ,there is the following Hadith ,Narrated by Abu Hurayrah:

  Allah's Messenger took hold of my hands and said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and He caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam after Asr on Friday; the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i.e. between afternoon and night. 
(Sahih Muslim Book No. 38).

Such Hadith clearly contradicts the Quran , that is why  Al-Bukhari said, 'This
saying is not that of the Prophet (may
Allah bless him and grant him peace), but Abu Hurayrah have taken it from  Ka'b al-Ahbar ."

Why Imam Albukhari thought
so?

1- Ka'b al-Ahbar taught Abu Hurrairah myths.


Translation of Malik's Muwatta,  Number 5.7.17: Yahya related to me from Malik from Yazid ibn Abdullah ibn al-Had from Muhammad ibn Ibrahim ibn al-Harith at-Taymi from Abu Salama ibn Abd ar-Rahman ibn Awf that Abu Hurayra said, "I went out to at-Tur (Mount Sinai) and met Kab al Ahbar and sat with him. He related to me things from the Tawrah and I related to him things from the Messenger of Allah ........

2- Ka'b al-Ahbar spread some false myths to his listeners "I have many examples".

3- Some of the listeners of Abu Hurrairah confused his narrations of the prophet (peace be upon him) and his narrations of the things he recieved from Ka'b:

"Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj "Author of Sahih Muslim" reported from Busr ibn Sa'id, as saying: Observe your duty to Allah and be cautious toward relating hadith. By God, we used to sit with Abu Hurayrah, and he was relating traditions of the Messenger of Allah (upon whom be God's peace and benediction) and those of Ka'b al Ahbar. On his departure, I would hear some of the attendants making the hadith of the Messenger of Allah to be from Ka'b, and hadith of Ka'b to be of the Messenger! In another narration: They would make Ka'b's utterance as if said by the Messenger of Allah, and what is said by the Messenger of Allah as if uttered by Ka'b! So guard against Allah and beware in relating hadith.

Upon that basis ,we can (at least) question the authenticy of other hadiths from the same category "the unseen ,whether past stories or future ones"
including the hadith that mentions not only the size of Adam, but also suggests evolution " continual ,gradual reduction of human size !!!!   

some other narrations of Al-bukhari that was narrated by Abu Hurrairah ,may be included ,eg; Moses smashing the eyes of the angel of death, Moses naked in front of the Jews,Allah created Adam in His own image, The sun and moon are two bulls in the hell on the Day of Resurrection ,God put His leg into Hell fire !... etc. etc.etc.

hope that brief outline was helpful.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 12:05:16 PM by Egyptian »

Offline Tanveer

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2012, 01:04:38 PM »
Does the hadith say where Adam PBUH was at that size? If not then seeing as theres no proof of giant humans (yet) is it possible this is regarding his time in heaven?

Offline There is only one God

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2012, 05:30:25 AM »
You're right. Heaven is another dimension and the physics is different there.

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2012, 07:26:09 AM »
Quote
"But the point ,is though the highly position of his collection,and his strict approach to choose his material , very few of his narrations was questioned "

Indeed . Even though he was very strict and careful , that doesn't mean he doesn't make mistakes - with respect to him - and that's how humans are . But I guess that you agree with me it wouldn't harm us if it was true right :) ?

Quote
"to add :
2- If these things match the certain well establieshed historical facts.
3- If these things match the certain well established scientific facts."

Thank you , helpful information :)

Quote
"There is no trustworthy proof of remains of giant humans (where is that museum having such skeletons?!!!) "

These are some pictures . I doubt that they are all fake .

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/f20/prophet-adam-alayhissalam-was-90-feet-tall-31213/
http://www.dailylinked.net/2009/07/giant-human-skeleton-ever-saw.html
http://www.thetruthbehindthescenes.org/2012/01/08/giant-foot-print-of-200-million-years-old-mpaluzi-south-africa/
http://overmanwarrior.wordpress.com/2010/12/20/giants-in-ohio-the-hidden-history-of-the-human-race/

As for the outline , it was helpful . Thanks . The only thing for us to discuss now is the pictures . Do you agree ? Or maybe you have another opinion ?

Offline Egyptian

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2012, 08:36:19 AM »
Does the hadith say where Adam PBUH was at that size?
It doesn't say it directly but it must be assumed to be The heavenly paradise.but though Heaven is another dimension and the physics is different there. still that won't change the meaning of the narration ...  claiming that the size of Adam was 60 feet ,and after descending from paradise God made his size shrunk ! is not in harmony with the narration itself....
If Adam's size was shrunk to be as the normal size of a human , then what is the meaning of the portion of the narration " People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation".

The narration is clear , the people who followed Adam continued to diminish in size(60 feet) up to modern times !!!


Indeed . Even though he was very strict and careful , that doesn't mean he doesn't make mistakes - with respect to him - and that's how humans are . But I guess that you agree with me it wouldn't harm us if it was true right :) ?

I think the narration poses the problem of gradual decreasing of size of humans , as we have ancient human skeletons that even smaller than modern human shape... (correct me if I'm wrong plz).

but as I explained before ,the narration (and some others narrated by Abu Hurrairah) are questioned ,not only on a textual basis but more important on a chain of narrative basis.

still the fact, in spite of those very few questioned narrations,Albukhari collection is highly trustworthy and informative. may Allah bless his soul Ameen.

The only thing for us to discuss now is the pictures . Do you agree ? Or maybe you have another opinion ?


I trust only the photos of museums , just why no where a skeleton from those is reserved and publicised in a museum?


I would like to conclude the post with interesting information:


A young man in Saudi Arabia created a piece of clothes ,the same size of Adam, according to the narration (29 meters) tall and 12 meters wide !..... lol


take a look






« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 09:16:05 AM by Egyptian »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2012, 12:29:24 PM »
Hmmm . After checking the pictures , I found out that most of them were e-mail hoaxes . And the one shown in that museum is doubted and questioned . The official longest skeleton found was 3.6 meters tall . Actually , to me , that doesn't make a problem . This is a matter of faith . And it could be like what you said and Abu Huraira mistakenly said a telling of "Ka'b Al-Ahbar" as a saying of the prophet . But I hope you could read these and give me your thought . They are from Islamic forums too .

http://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/t10019.html
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/showthread.php?14323-%E5%E1-%CD%DE%C7-%D8%E6%E1-%C7%C8%E6%E4%C7-%C2%CF%E3-%D3%CA%E6%E4-%D0%D1%C7%DA%C7%BF%BF%BF%BF%BF%BF%BF%BF%BF/page2


Offline Egyptian

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2012, 02:45:06 PM »
Thank you Bro Black Muslim ,though the discussion in the 2 threads you linked was civil, yet most of their posts are irrelevant to what I think the critical point of the tradition .... it is again:

the tradition claims that humans have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation up till (at least) the prophet's times .....

The earliest fossils of anatomically modern humans are about 200,000 years ago such as the Omo remains of Ethiopia (that if we don't think that the fossils of Homo habilis 2.3 million years ago,belongs to humans).

surely we don't know the time of Adam till such thousands of thousands years ago .... but we can compare the oldest human fossils discovered with the modern human skeleton ...... it is there ,where the critical point is .....  nowhere in the links ,any of them answered that question.....

for me it is not a problem ,as I doubt the authenticity of the tradition ,still highly esteem the collection of Imam Al-Bukhari.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2012, 02:51:10 PM by Egyptian »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2012, 07:00:55 AM »
I see that we agreed almost on everything . But something still makes me fell unrest . You see , when someone comes to us and says :

"The oldest discovered bones were not that tall . Therefore there is a mistake"

That is just an empty claim with no proof . He can't make sure 100% that the oldest bones found were from the time of our father Adam . They could be older and none was able to find them because they molded . And maybe the shrinking was faster in the first generations . And maybe Adam peace upon him was created in the mentioned size and became smaller ( But not as small as us ) when he descended to Earth . And after that people started shrinking slowly and with very tiny amounts ( That's still shrinking ) . And many other possible things . Now , I'm not saying that this DID happen . We're just refuting an empty claim with possibilities . But what really makes my heart unrest is that you doubt this saying . Otherwise , please tell me what makes it untrusted .

Offline Egyptian

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2012, 03:43:02 PM »
I see that we agreed almost on everything . But something still makes me fell unrest . You see , when someone comes to us and says :"The oldest discovered bones were not that tall . Therefore there is a mistake"

Omo remains or Homo habilis were taller than current humans ? how much?


He can't make sure 100% that the oldest bones found were from the time of our father Adam .

I agree with you totally in that,yet that is not the point ,our point is the earliest DISCOVERED human fossil size,compared with the current size....


maybe the shrinking was faster in the first generations .

what is the proof of a slower shrinking , in the last generation "from the time of the earliest human fossils discovered, up till now" ?

what really makes my heart unrest is that you doubt this saying . Otherwise , please tell me what makes it untrusted .

May be you forgot my reason ,dear brother .....
actually you even considered it a possibility.... let me quote you,plz:

And it could be like what you said and Abu Huraira mistakenly said a telling of "Ka'b Al-Ahbar" as a saying of the prophet .
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 03:46:20 PM by Egyptian »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2012, 12:42:09 AM »
"Omo remains or Homo habilis were taller than current humans ? how much?"

Huh ? What do you mean ? I think you misunderstood me .

Quote
"what is the proof of a slower shrinking , in the last generation "from the time of the earliest human fossils discovered, up till now" ?"

We're just mentioning possibilities to refute a charge against Islam that doesn't have a valid proof to it . I'm not saying that this DID happen . But it's just to reveal what's possible . And may God show us something in the future that can give us a crystal clear answer :)

Offline There is only one God

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2012, 01:19:37 AM »
or maybe Adam was a dinosaur

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2012, 07:01:26 AM »
Quote
or maybe Adam was a dinosaur

How rude ! Behave !

Offline There is only one God

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2012, 07:04:54 AM »
Quote
or maybe Adam was a dinosaur

How rude ! Behave !

How is that rude? It's just a hypothesis!

Offline Egyptian

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Re: Expanding earth and human size
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2012, 02:49:51 PM »
Quote
or maybe Adam was a dinosaur

How rude ! Behave !

How is that rude? It's just a hypothesis!

a hypothesis based on scientific or religious "Islamic" grounds?

The scientific theory doesn't say the first human was a dinosaur , Islam doesn't say we evolved from a dinosaur like creature "Adam" ....

a baseless hypothesis ,indeed.