Author Topic: This is amazing, an extract from Islamreligion.com  (Read 6607 times)

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Offline adnaanshaikh195

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This is amazing, an extract from Islamreligion.com
« on: February 12, 2013, 07:36:14 PM »
There are several key verses which Christians use to prove the biblical origin of the Trinity.  Upon analysis of these verses, one can clearly see that they do not prove the Trinity, but rather the same monotheistic message of God.  One of the most frequently cited passages from the Bible is Isaiah 9:6-7, from which Christians conclude that the Messiah must be God incarnate.  The passage states:

“or a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.  There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore the zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.”

That Isaiah 9:6 has been misinterpreted can be seen from the fact that Jesus is never called the “Eternal Father” anywhere else in Bible.  Since the Trinitarian doctrine teaches that Christians should “neither confound the Persons nor divide the Substance” (Athanasian Creed), how can the Trinitarians accept that Jesus is the “Eternal Father”? Let us consider additional facts impartially.

First, all the Hebrew verb forms in Isaiah 9:6 are in the past tense.  For example, the word which the Christian Bibles render as “his name will be called” is the two words ‘vayikra shemo,’ which properly translated, should read “his name was called.”  The word “vayikra” is the first word to appear in the book of Leviticus (1:1), and it is translated properly over there – in the past tense.  In addition, the King James Version translates the same verbs elsewhere in the past tense in Genesis 4:26 and Isaiah 5:25.  Only in Isaiah 9:6-7 are these verbs translated in the future tense!

Notice that it says “a child HAS been born to us.”  This is an event that has just occurred, not a future event.  Isaiah is not making a prophecy, but recounting history.  A future event would say a child will be born to us, but this is NOT what the verse says.  The Christian translations capitalize the word ‘son’ assuming that this is a messianic prophecy and the names of a divine son.

Second, the two letter word “is”, is usually not stated in Hebrew.  Rather, “is” is understood.  For example, the words “hakelev” (the dog) and “gadol” (big), when joined into a sentence - hakelev gadol - means “the dog IS big,” even though no Hebrew word in that sentence represents the word “is.”  A more accurate translation of the name of that child, then, would be “A wonderful counselor is the mighty God, the everlasting father ...”.  This name describes God, not the person who carries the name.  The name Isaiah itself means “God is salvation,” but no one believes the prophet himself is God in a human body!

Third, the phrase “Mighty God” is a poor translation according to some biblical scholars.  Although English makes a clear distinction between “God” and “god,” the Hebrew language, which has only capital letters, cannot.  The Hebrew word “God” had a much wider range of application than it does in English.  Some suggest a better translation for the English reader would be “mighty hero,” or “divine hero.”  Both Martin Luther and James Moffatt translated the phrase as “divine hero” in their Bibles.

Fourth, according to the New Testament, Jesus was never called any of these names in his lifetime.

Fifth, if Isaiah 9:6 is taken to refer to Jesus, then Jesus is the Father!  And this is against the Trinitarian doctrine.

Sixth, the fact that the New Testament does not quote this passage shows that even the New Testament authors didn’t take this verse to be in reference to Jesus.

Seventh, the passage is talking about the wonders performed by the Lord for Hezekiah, king of Judah.  Preceding verses in Isaiah 9 talk of a great military triumph by Israel over its enemies.  At the time Isaiah is said to have written this passage, God had just delivered King Hezekiah and Jerusalem from a siege laid by the Assyrians under General Sennacherib.  The deliverance is said to have been accomplished in spectacular fashion: an angel went into the Assyrian camp and killed 185,000 soldiers while they slept.  When Sennacherib awoke to find his army decimated, he and the remaining soldiers fled, where he was assassinated by his own sons (Isaiah 37:36-38).  Chapters 36 and 37 of Isaiah recount how Hezekiah stood firm in the face of Sennacherib’s vast army and his blasphemous words against the God.  When all seemed lost, Hezekiah continued to trust in the Lord, and for this he was rewarded with a miraculous victory.  It is interesting to note that the statement, “the zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this,” found at the end of Isaiah 9:7, is found in only two other places in the Bible: Isaiah 37:32 and 2 Kings 19:31.  Both these passages discuss the miraculous deliverance of Hezekiah by God.  Therefore, in light of the above, Isaiah is recounting God’s defense of Jerusalem during the Assyrian siege.  Furthermore, Soncino’s commentary says the chapter is about the fall of Assyria and the announcement of the birth of Hezekiah, the son of Ahaz.

The Hebrew name “Immanuel” can be translated as, “God with us” or “God is with us.” Some people believe, based on Isaiah 7:14, that because Jesus would be called “Immanuel,” he must be God incarnate.  Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23 are often read around Christmas.  They are read as follows:

Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”

Matthew 1:23 “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”

First, the prophesy states that his name will be Immanuel.”

It does not say that “he will be Immanuel.”

Second, Mary never called her child “Immanuel” as required by the prophecy.  According to the Bible, she named him Jesus following instructions by the angel of God.

Matthew 1:25 “but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a son; and he called His name Jesus.”

Luke 1:30-31 “The angel said to her, ‘Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.  And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.”

Third, when read in context, the birth and naming of the child Immanuel was to be a sign for king Ahaz that God was with his people who were about to be invaded by two rival kingdoms (Isa 7:10-16).  The promise was fulfilled by God (2 Kings 16:9).  The name “God is with us,” means that God will support us.[1]  The name makes perfect sense if the child’s name was supposed to indicate to King Ahaz that God was on his side.

Isa 7:10-16 “Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, ‘Ask the Lord your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.’ But Ahaz said, ‘I will not ask; I will not put the Lord to the test.’ Then Isaiah said, ‘Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men?  Will you try the patience of my God also?  Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.  He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right.  But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.”

2 Kings 16:9 The king of Assyria complied by attacking Damascus and capturing it.  He deported its inhabitants to Kir and put Rezin to death.

Fourth, Isaiah 7:14 in actual Hebrew does not say a virgin would give birth but that a young woman would conceive.  The Hebrew word almah, used in Isaiah 7:14 means young woman or maiden, not a virgin.  The Hebrew word for virgin is b’tulah.  The RSV (Revised Standard Version) Bible is one of the few Christian Bibles that used the translation ‘young woman’ instead of replacing it with the word ‘virgin.’

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign.  Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman’u-el.

Fifth, when something is “called” a certain name, it does not mean that the thing is literally what it is called.  Symbolic names are frequently used by Hebrews in the Bible.  Many names would cause great problems if taken literally.  Jerusalem is called “the Lord our Righteousness,” and Jerusalem is obviously not God (Jer. 33:16).  In Genesis 32:30, we are told that Jacob called a piece of land “Face of God.”  Abraham called the mountain on which he was about to sacrifice Ishmael “the Lord will provide,” yet no one would believe that the mountain was God.  Similarly, no one would believe an altar was God, even if Moses called it that: “Moses built an altar and called it ‘the Lord is my Banner’” (Ex. 17:15).  Would Christians believe that Elijah was “God Jehovah,” or that Bithiah, a daughter of Pharaoh, was the sister of Jesus because her name means “daughter of Jehovah?”  Do Christians believe that Dibri, not Jesus, was the “Promise of Jehovah,” or that Eliab was the real Messiah since his name means “My God (is my) father?”  Similarly, would they say that Jesus Bar-Abbas, who avoided crucifixion by being set free (Mat.  27:15-26)[2], was the son of God because his name meant “Jesus, son of his Father”?  Of course not.

We can conclude that reading Jesus as the fruition of a prophecy in Isaiah is only due to Matthew quoting the prophecy, rather than people actually calling Jesus Immanuel in his lifetime.  Furthermore, even if his name was Immanuel, the name does not necessarily reflect the fact, as can be seen from other names linked with God (in the Hebrew forms of El or Yah) belonging to other people.  Making the claim that Immanuel means Jesus God in the flesh among His people is therefore merely  an example of how the Trinitarian doctrine of incarnation was forced upon the message of Jesus by “bending” prophecies.

The above was taken from Islamreligion.com

Offline jesus.breadoflife

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Re: This is amazing, an extract from Islamreligion.com
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2013, 02:01:25 AM »
John 14:8-11
 
8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

Mathew 16:13-17

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 

May the Lord God also reveal to you this salvation which can be found under no other name. May the grace of God be with you.

Offline adnaanshaikh195

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Re: This is amazing, an extract from Islamreligion.com
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 02:50:31 PM »
John 14:8-11
 
8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

Mathew 16:13-17

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 

May the Lord God also reveal to you this salvation which can be found under no other name. May the grace of God be with you.

All I get from you Christians is Jesus, Jesus and Jesus.

I will never worship a human who never claimed to be God or divine in anyway, he also commanded his people to worship his Lord (He Jesus peace be upon him said 'Our Lord').

Don't reply to me telling me that he was in his human form and crap like that, it's illogical, the trinity exists in pagan origins, it was used with the Egyptians, it's used today with the Hindus, and also at the time on Nimrod (The king Abraham (peace be upon him) argued against).

Jesus is son of man, it's clear.

" God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? " (Numbers 23:19)

I worship the God of Noah, Abraham, Jacob (Israel), Adam, Ishmael, Isaac etc. (Peace be upon them all)

I will never worship a human or anything except God alone.

Jesus (peace be upon him)  prayed to God, you pray to Jesus.

I am following Jesus more then you are, it's logical.

Offline There is only one God

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Re: This is amazing, an extract from Islamreligion.com
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 03:34:37 PM »
John 14:8-11
 
8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

Mathew 16:13-17

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14 And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 

May the Lord God also reveal to you this salvation which can be found under no other name. May the grace of God be with you.

All I get from you Christians is Jesus, Jesus and Jesus.

I will never worship a human who never claimed to be God or divine in anyway, he also commanded his people to worship his Lord (He Jesus peace be upon him said 'Our Lord').

Don't reply to me telling me that he was in his human form and crap like that, it's illogical, the trinity exists in pagan origins, it was used with the Egyptians, it's used today with the Hindus, and also at the time on Nimrod (The king Abraham (peace be upon him) argued against).

Jesus is son of man, it's clear.

" God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? " (Numbers 23:19)

I worship the God of Noah, Abraham, Jacob (Israel), Adam, Ishmael, Isaac etc. (Peace be upon them all)

I will never worship a human or anything except God alone.

Jesus (peace be upon him)  prayed to God, you pray to Jesus.

I am following Jesus more then you are, it's logical.

BY THE ORDER OF THE 6000 YEAR OLD FLAT EARTH THOU SHALL BE BEHEADED FOR BLASPHEMY

Offline jesus.breadoflife

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Re: This is amazing, an extract from Islamreligion.com
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 04:03:16 PM »
Hi adnaanshaikh195,

I would disagree that Jesus did not claim to be divine. My previous post showed an extract from the Bible where Jesus asked his disciples who they thought he was.

Mathew 16:16-17
16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 

You can see that Lord Jesus did not tell Peter that he was wrong but called him blessed as the Father revealed to him who Jesus was.

Further verses showing the authority of Lord Jesus and why it is necessary to believe in him.

John 6:40
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 7:37-38
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”[a]

Luke 24:44-48
44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
 
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.


John 3: 16-19
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Lastly, this is what Paul wrote of Jesus:
Colossians 1:19-22
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
 
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[a] your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—


There is no other way to the Father except through Lord Jesus. May God bless you all.

Offline adnaanshaikh195

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Re: This is amazing, an extract from Islamreligion.com
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2013, 04:57:56 PM »
Jesus (peace be upon him) did not claim to be God or say 'worship me'.

He said worship his God, that is what I am doing, I am worshiping Allah alone.

I do believe in Jesus, I believe in all the prophets, the revelations, the messengers, the angels, the day of judgement and heaven and hell etc.

I am not going to worship a human being, that is paganism.

If Jesus was God, how could He pray to God?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said "Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD"?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:36-38 Jesus said that GOD had assigned him (Jesus) work and GOD is a witness on Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?

If Jesus was GOD, then why did he pray to his GOD in Luke 5:16?

You are worshipping Jesus, not God.

Jesus worshipped God, you worship Jesus, that is clear.

Worshipping the creation, is paganism. Allah created Jesus.

Allah is the greatest!

There is none worthy of worship except Allah alone.