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MAIN BOARD (You must register to post) => ISLAMIC DISCUSSIONS | GOD | QURAN | QURAN CANON & HISTORY | HADITHS & SUNNA => Topic started by: brian464 on February 16, 2016, 02:26:57 PM
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Saul was an enemy of the Christians and was on a mission to imprison or even kill Christians when He met Jesus on the road to Damascus.
The vision of Jesus made Saul temporarily blind and the words of Christ and the mission that Christ gave Saul,
sent Saul into deep fasting ( no drinking or eating for three days ) and while in deep prayer a few days later, a disciple of Christ came to heal Saul of his blindness.
Saul who became Paul the Apostle, who after having spent some days with Christ disciples went about preaching and doing miracles.
So is Paul at the same level as the Prophets of God ?
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Noahites and Israelites have prophets that serve God that is uniquely singular and do not manifest on earth in human form.
Ancient Greeks have prophetic seers that serve God that have equals, able to impregnate women, as well manifesting on earth in human form.
Paul would fit the latter.
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So Paul served God then and what does the Koran say about Paul's mission on earth ?
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Paul serve God that can manifest into human form, having equals , influenced by the Hellenistic beliefs of ancient Greeks.
such attribution of falsehood onto God is due to Deceiver promising to lead mankind astray from straight path.
O mankind, fear your Lord and fear a Day when no father will avail his son, nor will a son avail his father at all. Indeed, the promise of Allah is truth, so let not the worldly life delude you and be not deceived about Allah by the Deceiver. 31:33
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Paul serve(ed) God
The only God that Paul served was revealed to him by Jesus on Paul's mission to Damascus ( to arrest Christians ) and
that vision and revelation by Jesus blinded Paul for three days in which Paul went into a deep fasting without food or drink until
a disciple of Christ showed up to heal Paul of his blindness and after Paul was baptized,
Paul stopped arresting Christians and the Christians were surprised to see Paul on the side of Jesus, preaching the good news of salvation in Christ
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The only God that Paul served was revealed to him by Jesus on Paul's mission to Damascus ( to arrest Christians ) and
that vision and revelation by Jesus blinded Paul for three days in which Paul went into a deep fasting without food or drink until
a disciple of Christ showed up to heal Paul of his blindness and after Paul was baptized,
Paul stopped arresting Christians and the Christians were surprised to see Paul on the side of Jesus, preaching the good news of salvation in Christ
These stories that you quote are what were written in Greek books/letters after the claim by Paul meeting Jesus in the desert.
And no Jews and also no Jewish followers of Jesus use Greek books/letters nor any of them wosrhip the same God that was revealed onto Paul in his mission to Damascus. However Hellenistic Romans love the idea and the concept of God brought by Paul thus embracing what was spread by Paul.
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And no Jews and also no Jewish followers of Jesus use Greek books/letters
link me to the books written by the followers of Jesus, thanks
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the early followers of Jesus use Aramaic gospel in Hebrew alphabet.
Some Christians even made claim that even the translated Jesus logia/Q source that exist before the time of Paul did not survive.
Among the original sayings of Jesus :
And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic (61:6)
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the early followers of Jesus
Who were the early followers of Jesus ? and could you also tell me who the early followers of the Koran were ? thanks
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early followers of Jesus were the Hawariyun, Nasoreans.
early followers would also mean they are companions of prophets. What was uttered by prophets will be memorized, written down as to what were spoken by the prophets and spread to mankind.
The message of all prophets are simply about obeying the covenants of God and believe in the day of resurrection.
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early followers of Jesus were the Hawariyun, Nasoreans.
early followers would also mean they are companions of prophets. What was uttered by prophets will be memorized, written down as to what were spoken by the prophets and spread to mankind.
The message of all prophets are simply about obeying the covenants of God and believe in the day of resurrection.
The Hawariyun and Nasoreans wrote down what was spoken by Jesus, right ?, the same way the Koran was written
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The companions would memorize, recite and wrote the revelations and spread to the people whom the the prophet was sent.
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The companions would memorize, recite and wrote the revelations and spread to the people whom the the prophet was sent.
So the followers of Jesus spread what was written ( to the people ), just like the Koran was spread to the people
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The companions would memorize, recite and wrote the revelations and spread to the people whom the the prophet was sent.
Did the followers of Jesus also memorize what Jesus said ?
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The companions would memorize, recite and wrote the revelations and spread to the people whom the the prophet was sent.
Was the spreading of both books of the followers of Allah and Jesus, done the same way ?
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memorizing, writing down revelations in scrolls/books and spreading to the people are the way of all companions of the Messengers of God.
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memorizing, writing down revelations in scrolls/books and spreading to the people are the way of all companions of the Messengers of God.
how widespread was the spreading of the books of the followers of Jesus and the Koran ?
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the early Jewish followers of prophet Jesus spread the teachings onto Israelites.
the followers of prophet Muhammad spread the teachings onto mankind.
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the early Jewish followers of prophet Jesus spread the teachings onto Israelites.
the followers of prophet Muhammad spread the teachings onto mankind.
So did Allah ask the followers of Jesus to spread the book to only Jews or to all mankind, like the Koran ?
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memorizing, writing down revelations in scrolls/books and spreading to the people are the way of all companions of the Messengers of God.
What did God say to the followers of Jesus regarding the books that the followers were spreading ?
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Yes followers of Jesus would be spreading covenant onto Children of Israel.
And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic." 61:6
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Yes followers of Jesus would be spreading covenant onto Children of Israel.
And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic." 61:6
Tell me about the "covenant", what is that ?
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Yes followers of Jesus would be spreading covenant onto Children of Israel.
why just the children of Israel ? or was the message for mankind ?
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The covenant brought by Messengers are guidance against falsehood. Among the falsehood are making idols, believing in parts of God becoming flesh on earth, God having equals etc.. These are among the falsehood.
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Prophet Jesus the Messiah (pbuh) was sent for Children of Israel. But in the end, the Jews attempt to kill him. Certainly they do not succeed.
Among message from Jesus to Children of Israel is that, there will be a messenger after him sent for mankind.
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, there will be a messenger after him sent for mankind.
Isnt every messenger from God for all mankind ?
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, there will be a messenger after him sent for mankind.
What was Paul's role as a messenger in God's plan?
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Prophet Jesus the Messiah (pbuh) was sent for Children of Israel. But in the end, the Jews attempt to kill him. Certainly they do not succeed.
Jews attempted to kill Paul too
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, there will be a messenger after him sent for mankind.
Isnt every messenger from God for all mankind ?
The core of the covenant from God will be the same for mankind. So if Israelite prophets met non-Israelite, they will invite them to the same teachings of prophet Noah submitting to one singular God. But their covenant are for Children of Israel.
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Paul's role in God's plan is what is defined by the term falsehood onto the covenant of God.
Paul's teaching is against the covenant of God brought by all messengers. Hence why no Noahites or Israelites accepted his teachings. But hellenistics pagans accepted Paul's teachings as the concept of human gods is cherished in Greek cultures.
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Jews attempted to kill prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as well.
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submitting to one singular God
Paul did submit to one God and God's Word (who appeared to Paul ), just as muslims submit to Allah and the Koran (Allah's word)
You do know that when God says the Word "I", both "I"(the Word) and God are not two different beings but one God.
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Isn't Bible supposed to be the word of God too? I mean, Jesus was just one word, whereas the Bible is much greater than that. So... is Bible a bigger God? Or at the very least, it should be a God too. Right?
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Isn't Bible supposed to be the word of God too? I mean, Jesus was just one word, whereas the Bible is much greater than that. So... is Bible a bigger God? Or at the very least, it should be a God too. Right?
You do agree that the Koran ( Allah's word ) and Allah have existed together through eternity ?
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Answer the question!
And there has not been a consensus of scholars about the un-createdness of the Qur'an.
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Paul did submit to one God and God's Word (who appeared to Paul ), just as muslims submit to Allah and the Koran (Allah's word)
You do know that when God says the Word "I", both "I"(the Word) and God are not two different beings but one God.
You say Paul submitted to one God and onto God's Word that transformed into human on earth. This is similar to Hinduism. Hinduism too submit to one God. But the attributes of one God transformed into human form deities on earth. Notice the same concept of falsehood spread by the Deceiver.
Words of God are not God. They are not divine being. They dont transform into human but rather humans need to pen down those words into scrolls/books. They are revelations brought down by onto earth by Holy Spirit for guidance.
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Answer the question!
And there has not been a consensus of scholars about the un-createdness of the Qur'an.
Why do some scholars say that the Quran and Allah existed as two through eternity ?
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Once again did not answer the question!
And, which scholar said that "the Quran and Allah existed as two through eternity"? As far as I know, no one said that. What scholars have said is that, because God is supposed to be eternal, and therefore God in His entirety with all His attributes has to be eternal, which means God's knowledge also has to be eternal and since God's knowledge consists of the Qur'an along with all the knowledge about this universe, therefore the Qur'an is uncreated and has existed since the beginning (or throughout eternity). By this understanding, if I'm not mistaken, the Torah and the Bible would also be considered eternal.
Other scholars hold the opinion that even if there was a millisecond difference, God would have existed prior to His knowledge and therefore the Qur'an is created. This opinion has existed since 9th-10th centuries CE, primarily by the religious movement the Mut'azalis. This movement pretty much died out, but the concept of the uncreated Qur'an still exists.
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Isn't Bible supposed to be the word of God too? I mean, Jesus was just one word, whereas the Bible is much greater than that. So... is Bible a bigger God? Or at the very least, it should be a God too. Right?
Good analogy. Its also interesting to note Jesus is not referred as Words / Words of God by Christian. So since they believe that a Word transform into son of God. Do they have knowledge on which word was it?
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Answer the question!
And there has not been a consensus of scholars about the un-createdness of the Qur'an.
You said that there has not been a consensus ( of scholars ) which means, some scholars believe in the Quran and Allah existing together through eternity, right ?
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You said that there has not been a consensus ( of scholars ) which means, some scholars believe in the Quran and Allah existing together through eternity, right ?
There is no believe that Quran and Allah exist side by side the beginning through eternity. Attributes/parts of God do not exist side by side with God. Imagine if God spoke, do each of the words stand next to God side by side with divinity?
There is however a belief from some sect that only after Allah has spoken His Words. Then His Words are created or known.
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His Words are created or known.
Do you have a quote from the Quran saying that the Quran did not exist in eternity with Allah ?
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Unsurprisingly, the question still remains unanswered.
Regarding your point,
Do you have a quote from the Bible saying that the Bible did not exist in eternity with God?
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Unsurprisingly, the question still remains unanswered.
Regarding your point,
Do you have a quote from the Bible saying that the Bible did not exist in eternity with God?
The bible is a historical document ( so we know it did not exist before it was created by human beings )
unlike the Koran that is supposed to be in existence in eternity with Allah according to muslim scholars
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His Words are created or known.
Do you have a quote from the Quran saying that the Quran did not exist in eternity with Allah ?
Taurat/Zabur/Injil/Quran are Words of God. So His Words are eternal as God is eternal.
As no creature can erase the eternal attribute of God.
But the parts/attributes of God are not additional forms that exist side by side in divinity to God.
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So His Words are eternal as God is eternal.
We know its easy to think of a human as a trinity ( mind, body and spirit );
the mind is the conscious self,
the body is what we can see and
the spirit is the unconscious self that regulates heartbeat, body temperature, sugar levels etc.
Can we apply the same trinity explanation, analogously to God ? in other words,
God exists as Mind and Spirit and the Spirit in turn through the analogy of binary fission be (came ) Jesus in Mary's womb
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We know its easy to think of a human as a trinity ( mind, body and spirit );
the mind is the conscious self,
the body is what we can see and
the spirit is the unconscious self that regulates heartbeat, body temperature, sugar levels etc.
Can we apply the same trinity explanation, analogously to God ? in other words,
God exists as Mind and Spirit and the Spirit in turn through the analogy of binary fission be (came ) Jesus in Mary's womb
There you go. About such philosophy. Something that is not guided by the covenant sent down by God in His books are simply the disruptive thoughts whispered by the Deceiver. So the Deceiver led many Children of Adam astray by spreading falsehood about God.
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We know its easy to think of a human as a trinity ( mind, body and spirit );
the mind is the conscious self,
the body is what we can see and
the spirit is the unconscious self that regulates heartbeat, body temperature, sugar levels etc.
Can we apply the same trinity explanation, analogously to God ? in other words,
God exists as Mind and Spirit and the Spirit in turn through the analogy of binary fission be (came ) Jesus in Mary's womb
There you go. About such philosophy.
You do agree with the Trinity of a human being, right ?
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Exactly what are you trying to pull here? The Bible is claimed by Christian scholars as not just some historical document but as the Word of God.
Source: https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_276.cfm (https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_276.cfm)
Additionally, even if it was just a historical document, are you saying that it did not exist in your God's knowledge before humans decided to write it down?
As I have already mentioned before, Qur'an's existence in eternity is a disputed point not one of consensus, and even if there was unanimity over this, as I have repeatedly pointed out to you, it still does not make the Qur'an a separate being, it is an attribute of God, and it has also been called as a reflection of God's knowledge.
Regarding the trinity:
No, it is not easy "to think of a human as a trinity". Just what is the basis of this assumption? I never thought of a human in such a manner.
"...the mind is the conscious self..."
So, what happens when a person sleeps or becomes unconscious? So for a third of each day, a human is a duality, or whatever term you want to use here? Is it the same for God too? Sometimes, He is a trinity and at other times He is a duality?
"...the body is what we can see..."
So, when parts of a human's body get amputated, do parts of God also decrease in such a way? If parts of God can die, this conclusion is logical.
"... the spirit is the unconscious self that regulates heartbeat, body temperature, sugar levels etc."
Seriously? It is not the spirit that does these things, it is the brain (or the heart). If you can show me evidence of a human being whose brain or heart is unresponsive and still his "heartbeat, body temperature, sugar levels" are being regulated, then I will admit the possibility that it is the spirit that is doing it.
What about the soul which the christian doctrine believes will go to heaven or hell, does this mean that humans have four parts instead of three? Or by spirit you meant soul? In which case it would mean that the unconscious part of humans, which had no say in the matter of disbelieving in the divinity of Jesus gets to experience the torments of Hell.
No, this trinity can not be applied to God, but for animals on the other hand, I don't think it would be inaccurate to do so.
Animals also have a conscious self, they are conscious of their surroundings, their hunger, even of themselves as was discovered by observing their reactions when they saw their own reflections. They also have bodies and "spirit" which "regulates [their] heartbeat, body temperature, sugar levels etc.".
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You do agree with the Trinity of a human being, right ?
Nope i do not agree. Such concept is easily refuted as each human posses demon in themselves. So does demon resides in God ?
And why would you compare traits of a human being onto God. Is God some sort like Hellenistic God that has physical human bodies?
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As I have already mentioned before, Qur'an's existence in eternity is a disputed point not one of consensus, and even if there was unanimity over this,
When you say "there was unanimity over this, " you are also saying there is, at least, a minority of scholars who say that the Quran existed together with Allah in eternity, right ?
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it still does not make the Qur'an a separate being, it is an attribute of God, and it has also been called as a reflection of God's knowledge.
In addition to my comment above, are you saying there is no Quran in heaven beside Allah ?
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You do agree with the Trinity of a human being, right ?
And why would you compare traits of a human being onto God. Is God some sort like Hellenistic God that has physical human bodies?
Let's assume all non-Muslim religions including Christianity are polytheistic, why would Allah care ? isn't he all loving and kind and does not mind people going after other gods ?
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Discourse with you continues to be a waste of time. On another thread you continue to comment, not answering the criticisms that I made earlier, even though I specifically mentioned that I won't reply until those things remain unanswered or unrefuted.
You do know what "unanimity" means, right? If there is "a minority of scholars who say that the Quran existed together with Allah in eternity" it means that there is not a unanimity.
Regarding, "Quran in heaven beside Allah" - I'm not sure exactly what you are talking about here, but let's say that the Qur'an does exist in heaven beside Allah. This would mean that the heaven also exists beside Allah, the trees of heaven also exist, the rivers of heaven also, the angels also exist beside Allah, and so on and so forth. So, how many gods does the Islamic doctrine has? Muslims know the simple answer to that question but people trying really really hard to pervert the straightforward teachings of Islam on this matter, will go out of their way to not accept that clear and obvious answer.
I'm not even sure why you even made that statement - if the Qur'an exists beside Allah, it still does not make the Qur'an a separate being.
Regarding, "...all non-Muslim religions including Christianity are polytheistic..." - as has been repeatedly mentioned to you before, that following God's law is a test whose rewards and punishments are agreed upon between God and humans. Are you saying that you would believe in Allah more if He agreed with humans on one thing and did completely another?
Regarding, "...people going after other gods..." - I suppose it would also make you like Allah more if He had no problems with people following other gods, gods such as who demanded human sacrifice etc.
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In addition to my comment above, are you saying there is no Quran in heaven beside Allah ?
There is no such thing as separate entity Quran besides Allah in heaven.
Let's assume all non-Muslim religions including Christianity are polytheistic, why would Allah care ? isn't he all loving and kind and does not mind people going after other gods ?
One of attribute of Allah is being merciful to His creations. As for humans all of them had took covenant with Him prior to being born on earth. And they will be test by the Creator on earth. And you see the Merciful Creator sending His messengers to give guidance to humans.
It is up to humans to follow or abandon the guidance. But each of mankind's action will be judged in hereafter.
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. gods such as who demanded human sacrifice etc.
Pointing to the "criminal human behavior" of other gods does not mean
Allah should also be viewed as having human characteristics ( example: worship among humans can only be found in abusive husbands and even then those abusive husbands do not demand worship five times a day )
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As for humans all of them had took covenant with Him prior to being born on earth.
So prior to being born on earth, Allah told the humans they need to worship him five times a day ?
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Prior to be born on earth, the covenant is to worship none except Allah.
However, once born on earth, humans are raised up with their parent's religion or beliefs of surroundings.
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"If my FALSEHOODS abound to God's glory why am I being judged a sinner?"
Paul was an admitted liar and self proclaimed apostle to the Gentiles, a notion even Acts, supposedly written by Luke his companion, refutes and says Allah swt chose Peter to do this, and the Gospels agree.
Paul says "Faith ALONE justifies us."
James: "Faith without works is dead."
Both use Abraham (pbuh) as the same proof so who is right? They use the same exact passage too! One was 'brother' of Issa (pbut), the other said "curse that is the Law" was "done away with."
Issa (p) chose 12 Apostles and the requirements for being an Apostle are in Acts as a replacement for Judas Iscariot is needed, "Matthias" replaced Judas and the last man alive who qualified was "Justus (Barnabas according to Codex Bezae)"
Mt 24:23 predicts the coming of Paul, he fits the description, was mad "All those who are in Asia have turned from me" so if Issa (p) spoke his last Revelation to Yohann to "The 7 Churches of Asia"....
And in it mentions 12 Apostles (Vision of New Jerusalem 12 is mentioned 5 or 6 times)...
I will let you decide.
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"This I have against you...the teaching of Balaam who put a stumbling block for Israel teaching to eat meat sacrificed to idols..." Issa (sa) in Revelation.
"An idol is nothing."
Paul claims that it's fine to eat, only "weak brothers", if they are present, then don't.
"Weak brothers" refers to the "Circumcision faction", "Men of James brought in to spy on our freedom in Christ Jesus..."
In other words... don't get caught or I'm im trouble with James (sa).