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MAIN BOARD (You must register to post) => GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS => Topic started by: Saudi Salafi on March 07, 2016, 07:22:17 AM
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They claim that Allah SWT is a devil who deceived us and that Prophet Muhammad PBUH is a falso prophet and claI'm that the Bible has a prophecy which predicts Islam. HELP! ANYONE PLEASE!!
https://carlosmdiaz.wordpress.com/2014/08/05/the-most-awful-name-in-allahs-sight-sahih-al-bukhari-bk-73-num-224/
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The following is according to my own understanding and knowledge, which could be faulty.
First of all, the most important counter argument to the allegation that Islam came from the devil is the fact that Muslims pray to seek refuge from the devil, before their prayers, before reciting a surah of the Qur'an etc. Why would the devil make praying for refuge from him and cursing him, such an integral part of the religion?
In other words we seek refuge from Satan and curse him repeatedly every day, we do this probably more than the Christians themselves, who have even reached a point where in their entertainment shows, in pursuit of new stories and ratings, they have even started showing the devil as the protagonist in some stories, indirectly making the concept of the devil more acceptable to the hearts and minds of the viewers.
In such a scenario, if anyone has the right to accuse the other of being at a far greater risk of mislead by the devil, it should be the Muslims.
From what I understand, the "King of kings" as mentioned in 1 Timothy 6:13-15 is God "the father" but the same term is apparently used for Jesus (in Revelations 19:13-16), which brings us back to the whole problem of how Jesus, who died can be God, because if a part of God can die than the whole of God can also die thus making God mortal instead of an immortal being as the Bible claims; not to mention, many other issues than the trinitarian Christian doctrine has. This goes against Islamic doctrine and some would argue against sound logic too, therefore this is probably a corruption in the book and you should not put much stock in things like these.
I suspect the most troubling portion of that article for you, was the part about the false prophet. I am not a scholar so I can't be sure about how right I am here, but you should take a look at Revelations 19:19-21 which describe the "Beast and False Prophet".
…19: And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20: And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21: And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Source: http://biblehub.com/revelation/19-20.htm
Aside from several other problems, as Prophet Muhammad has already left this Earth, there appears to be no possibility that the Biblical prediction about the false prophet can hold to Prophet Muhammad (p).
Regards,
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From what I understand, the "King of kings" as mentioned in 1 Timothy 6:13-15 is God "the father" but the same term is apparently used for Jesus (in Revelations 19:13-16)
As-Salam Aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,
Dear brother AhmadFarooq, the passage of Revelations 19:11-16 does not refers to Jesus (pbuh), but rather to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Yes, he is described in a specific way indeed, but according to my research this is the same figure mentioned in Isaiah 49:2 identified as the Servant of God. The fact of using these untypical phrases alone indicates that it is about the same person. In my detailed work concerning the prophecies about the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Bible, I'am proving that this Servant of God [Isaiah 42; Isaiah 53 etc.] is none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
I will insha'Allah respond on this article, when I get a free time.
Take care, and Salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)
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W/slam,
Okay, thanks for the correction.
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Jesus never declare himself to be King of Kings; one of the title/attribute belonging to Yhwh.
But rather the Hellenistic authors that believe in God appearing as human on earth wrote such description about Jesus in their Greek stories.
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As-Salam aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,
As to the claim from that article, first of all, Allah Almighty is called “the King” (Quran 59:23)
Narrated `Abdullah:
A (Jewish) Rabbi came to Allah's Apostle and he said, "O Muhammad! We learn that Allah will put all the heavens on one finger, and the earths on one finger, and the trees on one finger, and the water and the dust on one finger, and all the other created beings on one finger. Then He will say, 'I am the King.' Thereupon the Prophet smiled so that his pre-molar teeth became visible, and that was the confirmation of the Rabbi. Then Allah's Apostle recited: 'No just estimate have they made of Allah such as due to Him.' [Quran 39:67] (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Hadith #335)
Narrated Abu Huraira:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "Allah will hold the whole earth, and roll all the heavens up in His Right Hand, and then He will say, 'I am the King; where are the kings of the earth?"' (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Hadith #336)
translation by M. Muhsin Khan
Found in: 110 Ahadith Qudsi (Sacred Hadith)
Hadith no: 41
Narrated: Abu Huraira
I heard Allah's Messenger (PBUH) saying: Allah would grasp the whole planet of the earth and roll it up on the Day of Resurrection and all the heavens will be in His Right Hand. Then He will say: I am the King. Where are the monarchs of the earth? (This Hadith is sound and reported by Bukhari and Muslim).
Also, Abu Huraira has reported that Allah’s Messenger said:
“The most wretched person in the sight of Allah on the Day of Resurrection and the worst person and target of His wrath would be the person who is called "Malik al-Amlaak" (the King of Kings) for there is no king but Allah.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 25, Hadith #5339)
In sura 3:26 Allah Almighty is also called "Malik al-Mulk" (the King of the Kingdom/The King of Absolute Sovereignty), and it is one of His 99 glorious names known as “asma al-husna”. He is "the King of the Day of Judgement" (Quran 1:4)
That is why… “The most awful name in Allah’s sight on the Day of Resurrection, will be a man calling himself Malik Al-Amlak (the King of kings)” …since there is no king over Allah, the Most Exalted, the Ruler of the Universe, The King of all Kings !
As to the New Testament, what is really bizarre for me is that the person mentioned in Revelations 19:13-16 is allegedly called “the King of Kings”. I ‘am positive that it is about the same figure mentioned in Isaiah 49:2 which describes The Servant of God [from Isa. 42, Isa. 45, Isa. 53, Isa. 60 etc.], but he is nowhere called "the King of Kings" or "the Lord of Lords" in Isaiah. Perhaps these two expressions should be taken figuratively, or it is even possible that it was made up by some scribe who tried to ascribe this particular vision to Jesus (pbuh). One of such examples is Matthew 12:18 where he quotes the passage of Isaiah 42:1-4 as a certain fulfilment of Jesus (pbuh). What a wishful thinking ! First, no serious Christian scholar will admit today that Isaiah 42 is talking about the coming of Jesus (pbuh). Secondly, I have proved enough in my book (using hadiths, Quranic verses, Rabbinical and Christian commentaries, Biblical dictionaries and lexicons) that this "Servant of God" is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and no one else !
I will continue insha’Allah this issue in my next post.
Take care, and Salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)
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Thanks brothers. :)
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As'salamu Alaikum everyone,
The link in the first post quotes the Hadith as follows:
"Malik Al-Amlak (the King of kings)"
That is a wrong translation. The correct one is: King of all possessions. AMLAK means possessions. And yes, no one owns anything. Allah Almighty ALONE owns All.
As to Prophet Muhammad's Prophethood, he was thoroughly prophesied in the old Scriptures. Please visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/predict.htm
Also, visit the following link to see the overwhelming and STUNNING Scientific and Numerical Miracles in the Glorious Quran:
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
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The version that he narrated was Muslim's version. The bukhari one says Malik al-mulook
“The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘The most despised name with Allaah on the Day of Resurrection will be a man called Malik al-Mulook.’”
Meaning the King of Kings.
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Brother can you refute this also?
http://www.endtime.com/islam/
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What's to refute? It's rubbish that is full of desperate interpretations. The Bible THOROUGHLY speaks about the Glory of GOD Almighty coming from Arabia (the East). And GOD Almighty's new Covenant and new Servant will also come from there:
www.answering-christianity.com/predict.htm
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
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The version that he narrated was Muslim's version. The bukhari one says Malik al-mulook
“The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘The most despised name with Allaah on the Day of Resurrection will be a man called Malik al-Mulook.’”
Meaning the King of Kings.
Ok, then this Hadith proves that the bible is corrupt. It's ironic that even the bible itself declares that it is a corrupt book:
www.answering-christianity.com/deuteronomy4_2.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac6.htm#links
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
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How does it prove that the Bible is corrupt? Also, what I want a refutation of is the claim that "Allah hates the King of the Kings and the King of the kings is Jesus. And in the Bible it says that the King of the Kings is going to put the false prophet (Prophet Muhammad PBUH) and the devil (Allah SWT) in hell."
Also, regarding the second link that I have you, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Arab_colors
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it's really simple , devil will tell you that the good is evil , i give just a 4 opposite differences to tell us who is the devil .
1- the naked person on the beach or the respectable person everywhere? Adam and Eve PBUH were putting heaven leaves to cover their things not the opposite , this is the real human nature the respectable one , Islam came to have them under control and to prevent chaos of happening, now the bad is having the good under control and preventing the order of god of happening, theirs are the real crooked opposite nature of humanity and primitive status. all of that bad and evil to the world caused by Romans polytheism Catholicism . but their puppeteers are really good in balancing it on evil scales and brainwash all that it is the good scale are the heavier one , imposters worx.
70% of atheist are ex-Christians.
howgoodisthat.wordpress.com/2012/12/19/majority-of-atheists-are-ex-christians-with-a-university-education/
2- do you prefer who makes mistakes and solve their mistakes with more mistakes ? or who prevent mistakes of happening? , they made gays by their Christianity academic life that delayed marriage for who couldn't find a girl friend, and adopted them by liberty state and married them in churches. they are the causes of illegitimate child and broken families , they dealt with it by mothers day(not enough) , they made orphans places for illegitimate and made all pays for it, they causes you cancers and makes you pay for it medicines , they feed you cancer food and selling you drugs and alcohol and makes you pay for it and for it medicines , they pollute air , they nuked test, they nuked japan , they made the woman and man unnatural, they left uranium radiations in Iraq and afghan, they are real imposters and know when to back a step and back-stab .
3- they made their religious men not getting married and produced more gays and they did little boys in the churches and loving dates in there. or the people that pray in mosque and having peace with each others and leave in peace. ?
4- their wars are genocides , Islam wars are battles .
.....etc and lots of opposite differences try to figure it out by yourself.
they are just using issa PBUH name and unmarried status of his , as they praised Elijah for not doing so , using this for making gays , this really work of imposters, as Persians are using ALI name and makes him and his family gods to kill monotheists. Islam is being fought from all directions.
7-17"then I shall come on them from before them and from behind them, from their right hands and their left hands; Thou wilt not find most of them thankful.'"
they wanna makes Sodom and amoura to the whole world so god will close the page of all humanity together.
this is not bible is what they got . no comparable . they are a people who wanna makes their genitals happy for a period of time and spending their life on lusts and earth fascinations, where Jesus said in their bible that my kingdom is not from this world, but you can see that their heaven is by doing crooked habits in this world .
15-39"Iblis said, "Lord, because you have caused me to go astray, I shall make earthly things attractive to (people) and mislead all of them"
so they made every bad things possible, and encourages you to do it by their crooked life style that they imported it and marketed it to the all nations, covering their mistakes , blaming it on anothers , solve their mistakes with more mistakes and makes you pays for it. this came by roman Christianity which is the way to atheism and human portrait(devil) nature. they are only troubles makers . they are the real Zionists.
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I don't think there is any way that the "false prophet" title from the Bible can be inserted for Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). As I mentioned before, the Bible claims, in Revelations 19:19-21, that this false prophet will be fought by Jesus. As Prophet Muhammad has left this Earth and, unlike Jesus, is not coming back therefore, there is no way that Jesus is going to be doing any fighting with Prophet Muhammad.
Regarding the other "arguments", why are you giving so much importance to the Book which is known to have been corrupted? If the Bible claims that Jesus is the "king of kings", it does not make him the king of kings. Similar is the case for the horse colours.
Additionally, one of the earliest interpretations of the white horse rider, by Irenaeus, an influential Christian theologian of the 2nd century, holds that this rider is Jesus himself. Others hold that this rider is the Holy Ghost.
Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Apocalypse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Apocalypse)
Moreover, Revelation 6:1-8 talk about how these four horses were let loose by Jesus himself. Does it make sense to you that the four horses that Jesus let out presumably at the very beginning of the first century CE, were going to wait 700 years and in the case of the Fatmid Caliphate (the green "horse") 900 years. Because of this reason most of the interpretations for these verses take them to indicate things which happened in the beginning of the Christian calender. Either these are related to something obvious like the Roman empire of those times and its trials and tribulations; or something symbolic like injustice and such things continuing in the world from that time.
The interpretation you cite is a minority opinion.
"American Protestant Evangelical interpreters regularly see ways in which the horsemen, and Revelation in general, speak to contemporary events. Some who believe Revelation applies to modern times can interpret the horses based on various ways their colors are used. Red, for example, often represents Communism, the white horse and rider with a crown representing Catholicism, Black has been used as a symbol of Capitalism, while Green represents the rise of Islam. Pastor Irvin Baxter Jr. of Endtime Ministries espouses such a belief."
Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Apocalypse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Apocalypse)
This is an extremely fallacious methodology. Let's look briefly at what the Bible says about these horses.
The white horse (according to Revelation 6:1-2), when the seal was broken by Jesus in first century CE, "went out conquering and to conquer." Muslims came 600 years later, so how could this possibly be talking about Islam? Similarly, the other three horses also came out along with him, 600 years before the introduction of Islam. According to the text, these horses were to start their work soon after they came out, why the 600 year wait?
The pale horse (according to Revelation 6:7-8) was to kill "with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth". Again, where is the relationship with Islam? As far as I know, the only empire known for killing with "wild beasts" as a national past-time was the roman empire. Additionally, sexual promiscuity, something Muslims are famous for staying away from, has been known to be a cause of some forms of "pestilence".
Additionally, it can also be argued, that the four horses came out in the order of White, Red, Black and then finally Green; while the order of the introduction of Pan-Arab colours can be construed as Black, White, Green and Red somewhere in-between which is another point that appears to go against the Biblical "prophecy", if you can even call these text as prophecies in the first place.
Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Arab_colors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Arab_colors)
The fact is, unless these four horsemen are interpreted to be exactly what they appear to be in the Biblical text, in which case they can have nothing to do with Islam as they predate the religion by 600 years, several extremely different interpretations can be made and by providing very little, if any, authentic supporting evidence, these insincere people can bend the verses to reach their desired conclusions.
Regards,
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As-Salamu aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,
In Revelation 19:15 there is a very specific detail which can describes only one person! I mean the fragment "A sharp sword comes out of his mouth to strike down the nations." The same detail - in a little bit different language - was ascribed to the Servant of God in Isaiah 49:2 which says in the beginnig: "He made my mouth like a sharp sword" Now, my question to those who are saying that the one who ride the white horse from Revelation 19:11-16 is Jesus:
"Why this particular detail can be found only in the Book of Isaiah as a reference to the Servant of God, and in Revelation as a reference to the figure riding white horse ?"
Take care, and salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)
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As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers,
Please visit the following link to see the ample Biblical passages about the Glory of GOD Almighty will come from the East:
www.answering-christianity.com/east.htm
In there, you will also find a link that gives ample references about Islam in the book of Revelation.
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
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And dear brother Idris, according to Islam, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, did ride the WHITE HORSE, BURAQ (Muslims with other dialects call it Barac, which is where the name Barack Obama comes from), to travel from Mecca to Jerusalem. The Hadiths also say that the Prophet ascended up to Heaven on the White Horse and came down.
For more information, visit:
www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=prophet+muhammad%27s+white+horse+buraq
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
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How does it prove that the Bible is corrupt? Also, what I want a refutation of is the claim that "Allah hates the King of the Kings and the King of the kings is Jesus.
in the link http://www.answering-christianity.com/deuteronomy4_2.htm
you can see even the bible made clear revelations that Jewish scribes made up false stories in their own scrolls. And hence the reason many prophets were sent to the tribes of israel to guide them to true path.
King of Kings is a title for Babylon king in jewish books.
In Hellenistic greek books, the greek authors made the title belonging to Jesus.
In Islam title of king of kings cant be applied to His creations.
And the teachings of Islam has influenced the Jews as well where the title king of kings belonging only to Yhwh.
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And dear brother Idris, according to Islam, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, did ride the WHITE HORSE, BURAQ (Muslims with other dialects call it Barac, which is where the name Barack Obama comes from), to travel from Mecca to Jerusalem. The Hadiths also say that the Prophet ascended up to Heaven on the White Horse and came down.
As-Salamu aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,
Correct observation brother Osama, that’s exactly what I wanted to indicate. Ineed in ahadith literature, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did ride a celestial white horse called al-Buraq which means “The Lightning” because it was moving so fast as far as his eyesight can go through. I've made some notes on the prophecy of Revelation 19:11-16. Let’s check some details:
a) “Its rider is named Faithful…”
It is commonly known that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) bearing this very title, i.e. al-Amin
b) “…and True”
Example of Quranic verse referring to the above fragment:
“How shall Allah guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true (ar. haqq’un) and that clear signs had come unto them? But Allah guides not a people unjust.” (Quran 3:86)
c) “…and in righteousness he judges.”
"Now then, for that (reason), call (them to the Faith), and stand steadfast as thou art commanded nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: "I believe in the Book which Allah has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. Allah is Our Lord and your Lord. For us (is the responsibility for) Our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. Allah will bring us together, and to Him is (Our) final goal." (Quran 42:15)
The Servant of God in Isaiah is described in the same way (Isaiah 53:11).
d) “and on his head are many royal crowns” (See Revelation 6:2)
Only the Servant of God is described in a similar way (see Isaiah 62:3)
To understand who is the figure riding the white horse, you have to understand first who is the Servant of God mentioned in Isaiah. Unfortunatelly, it is so deceitful that this servant is sometimes identified as Jacob or Israel which is a LIE, and I will prove it insha'Allah in my book. Even the Christian scholars themselves denies that the word "Israel" was connected with the Servant of God. Do you actually realize that in the Old Testament there were made many modifications that are too deep to detect them ? It is confirmed by the Christian scholars of Hebrew. So you have to be carreful to which scholar you are listening, because some of them will take you away from the truth.
There are many amazing details about which I can't tell you now, since as I have said before, it would spoil my surprise.
Take care, and salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)
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As-Salamu aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,
some of you might say: "then who is the lamb from Revelation if not Jesus (pbuh)" ? Again, this lamb is connected with the Servant of God (see Isaiah 60:19-20). Man, what a surprise heh ? 8)
If someone will find similar details, post it here and motivate our Muslim brothers and sister to do their own research.
Take care, and salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)
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As-Salamu aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,
some of you might say: "then who is the lamb from Revelation if not Jesus (pbuh)" ? Again, this lamb is connected with the Servant of God (see Isaiah 60:19-20). Man, what a surprise heh ? 8)
If someone will find similar details, post it here and motivate our Muslim brothers and sister to do their own research.
Take care, and salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)
Sorry I didn't mention which verses: compare Revelation 21:23 with Isaiah 60:19-20. and many others detail explicitely shows that the lamb and the rider on the white horse is the Servant of God which is the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
Take care, and salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)
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King of Kings is a title for Babylon king in jewish books.
And the teachings of Islam has influenced the Jews as well where the title king of kings belonging only to Yhwh.
From where did you taken this information ? Brother submit, do you have some reference note to this claim ? I would require it in my study.
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Dear brother Idris
You said that you research on prophecies of Prophet Muhammad in the bible. Do you actually write articles on your work and publish them online. If so can you provide the links.
Thank you
Mohamed Saif
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Dear brother Idris
You said that you research on prophecies of Prophet Muhammad in the bible. Do you actually write articles on your work and publish them online. If so can you provide the links.
As-aleikum aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,
Yes, but I didn’t published any official articles on this topic, not yet. This is a big project which require a long time of research, but through the last two years I did many notes and observations that led me to discover amazing things, never noticed before by any Muslim. Alhamdulillah! I have some few people who helps me occasionally in my study, but speaking honestly, I’ve always dreamed of a Muslim team which would cooperate with me all the time.
I have at my disposal a huge library of e-books of many scholarly works: articles and books concerning the Bible history, rabbinic and patristic exegesis etc. (all the most important sources)
I know what to do, where to search, which info need to be checked etc.
So, everything is actually prepared, but the problem is that I’am alone. And this is too much for me. The works dealing with the Biblical prophecies of Mohammed (pbuh) written by our Muslim scholars in many points are not sufficiently explored, but at the same time I’am collecting every important info from their writings and adding my own, so the work is unique.
I can’t tell how much time it took before I publish my work. If I would have a few willing Muslim brothers which are passionate with this subject (and of course to whom I can trust), the work will gain a chance to be published much faster.
Take care, and salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)
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Assalamun Alaikum dear brother Idris
Isaiah 49:3 says "thou art my servant, Israel". It doesn't speak of Prophet Muhammad. From what I've heard Isaiah 29 and 42 only speak of Prophet Muhammad. Where am I going wrong? Please help
Thank you
Mohamed Saif
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Wa aleikum as-salam wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh dear brother Mohamed Saif,
MS #96, according to Kennicot’s classification, lacks the word “Israel” in the passage of Isaiah 49:3 ! (See the critical apparatus in the link below, under VARIAE LECTIONES, p. 63)
Link: https://archive.org/stream/vetustestamentum02kenn#page/62/mode/2up (https://archive.org/stream/vetustestamentum02kenn#page/62/mode/2up)
Firstly, notice that in the same passage it appears a Hebrew word פאר for “glory, praise”, and it is most likely that the word ישׂראל (i.e. Israel) is an early interpolation inserted to the text of Isaiah 49:3. For the scholars themselves, the absence of ישׂראל in MS #96 plays an important factor. Secondly, Isaiah 42:1 according to LXX is talking about Jacob/Israel being a Chosen servant, while neither MT (Masoretic text), TJ (Targum Jonathan), SP (Syriac Peshitta), nor 1QIsa (The Great Isaiah Scroll) contains such words, so the Jews were certainly manipulating with these particular fragments. NO DOUBT!
Rabbi Ibn Ezra, a great Jewish scholar and author of the best exegesis on the Book of Isaiah, states that the servant mentioned in Isaiah 42:1-4, Isaiah 49:1-6, Isaiah 50:4-9, Isaiah 52:13-53:12 is basically the same person.
The Targum and some early rabbinic sources agree with that the Four Servant Songs refers specifically to the Messiah (i.e. the last and final Prophet). However, the Jews are an entrusted people – very few of them you will find honest – who for sure tempered their text, especially when the “Royal Messiah”, the long awaited prophet, came to them (and they refused him just because he was an Arab, and not an Israeli one)
Take care, and salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)
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Assalamun Alaikum brother Idris
Does the same thing apply for Isaiah 60 and 62?
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Assalamun alaikum dear brother Idris
I checked about the Four Servant Songs. It is also called the songs of the suffering servant. According to some sites it says that it refers to the Messiah and some say that it refers to Jesus Christ. But how does it refer to Prophet Muhammad? And what does suffering servant mean?
Thank you
Mohamed Saif
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Wa aleikum, a-Salam wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,
I don't know in what manner you are asking ? I did not analyzed passages of Isaiah 60, 62, but I encourage you to do your own research. If you are interested in Old Testament studies, then it is advisable that you should learn Hebrew, since without it you could be easily refuted by any person influent in Hebrew.
As to the Four Servant Songs, only Isaiah 52:13-53:12 has been identified as a "Suffering Servant". Early Jewish tradition from 200-500 A.D. apply this to the Messiah, but obviously they did not meant Jesus pbuh, since they have already rejected him. I personally do not understand this weird Jewish view of many messiahs. If there were indeed many messiahs, Allah would mentioned other than Jesus (pbuh). Even from the hadith, we do not heard of any Messiah beside Jesus (pbuh), so I think that, since Jews had such a powerful Kings like David (pbuh), after Babylonian exile, they started dreaming about a perfect Kingly Messiah, who will be a king, a priest, and a warrior-prophet, and who will be a saviour to them. When Jesus (pbuh) came, they were deeply disappointed, because he was weak, he did not like to fight, nor had some special authority etc. and after his ascension, they still have this weird idea about a Kingly Messiah (ironically even Muslims sometimes are forced to use it when they want to refer to Prophet Muhammad pbuh as a last of many messiahs). Therefore, I think that this whole concept about many messiahs - Royal and Priestly Messiah - is merely a Jewish joke, a wishful thinking, a pious hope... In other words, if it would be true, I 'am sure that Allah or Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) would have spoke at least one phrase about other messiah - or anointed one - than Jesus (pbuh), but we have nothing, thus it is a Jewish invention !
As to the Suffering Servant from Isaiah 52:13-53:12 it does apply in many ways, but I did not finished my work on this, and it is in early stage of research, but there are some striking allusions which proves that the section of Isaiah 52:13-53:12 is - or was - originally a description of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh), and Allah knows best!
Take care, and salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)
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Assalamun Alaikum dear brother Idris
I actually thought that Isaiah 59:20 where it says that the "redeemer shall come unto Zion" and Isaiah 62:3 where it says that "Thou shalt be a crown of glory" is talking about the same servant. That is what I meant.
I was actually going through your previous posts and found some interesting facts. In one of your previous posts you said that the name Ahmed existed in Isaiah in the Armenian Bible. If you could actually prove that then the whole book of Isaiah is almost dedicated to Prophet Muhammad. If the servant songs referred to the same person and Prophet Muhammad's name existed there then the entire song is about him.
It cannot refer to Christ since Prophet Muhammad suffered far more than him. Christ suffered Three years of persecution while Prophet Muhammad suffered 13 years. So who is the suffering servant? The answer now is almost obvious!
Your works are highly scholarly and professional. Keep up the good work brother Idris
Thank you
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I actually thought that Isaiah 59:20 where it says that the "redeemer shall come unto Zion" and Isaiah 62:3 where it says that "Thou shalt be a crown of glory" is talking about the same servant. That is what I meant.
Correct, these two passages talks about the same person, since were applied messianically by the ancient Synagogue. The Redeemer and Zion should be understood as a reference to Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) coming back to Mecca, saving his people from idolatry and other great sins.
I was actually going through your previous posts and found some interesting facts. In one of your previous posts you said that the name Ahmed existed in Isaiah in the Armenian Bible. If you could actually prove that then the whole book of Isaiah is almost dedicated to Prophet Muhammad. If the servant songs referred to the same person and Prophet Muhammad's name existed there then the entire song is about him.
Yes, there is a curious indication which could prove that the name Ahmad originally appeared in Isaiah 42:10. It is Haydar ‘Ali al-Qurayshi, a Muslim historian quoted by Rahmatullah al-Hindi, who reported that in the year 1666, an Archbishop called Voscan Yerevantsi or Auscan Erewanci, have translated the Book of Isaiah into Armenian language in which he supposedly mentioned Ahmed in chapter 42:10, but for now I’am too sceptical to this report until I will be able to check it for myself with the help of friends professor insha’Allah.
It cannot refer to Christ since Prophet Muhammad suffered far more than him. Christ suffered Three years of persecution while Prophet Muhammad suffered 13 years. So who is the suffering servant? The answer now is almost obvious!
Well, certainly Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) in his lifetime suffered much more than Jesus (pbuh). He was suffering physically and psychically as well.
Your works are highly scholarly and professional. Keep up the good work brother Idris
Thank you, I hope that my work will be fruitful for all Muslims!
Take care, and salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)
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Assalamun alaikum dear brother Idris
I have one more doubt. How do we know that the "Zion" mentioned in Isaiah is not literally the Zion in Jerusalem. How do you know it refers to the Holy city of Mecca?
My other question is that if Prophet Muhammad fulfilled most of the messianic prophecies then why is Jesus Christ called the Messiah in Islam. Did he do anything special to gain the title? We know that he only came to confirm the law and the gospel and give glad tidings of a messenger to come after him. And we also know that he didn't liberate the jews from the Roman Empire. Then why was he given this title?
Thank you
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I have one more doubt. How do we know that the "Zion" mentioned in Isaiah is not literally the Zion in Jerusalem. How do you know it refers to the Holy city of Mecca?
The term Zion either refers exclusively to Mecca alone or there are perhaps two Zions. This expression is used in so many different ways, but in the Book of Isaiah, as I remarked almost every time it is applied to Mecca, or in some cases to Kaaba itself! For example, reading Isaiah 1:26 according to the text of LXX, Zion will be called the “Mother City”, and in Masoretic Text is called the “Faithful City” or rather the “Safety City”. Now, both of these titles are given only to Mecca in Islam’s teaching (see Quran 6:92, and 16:112). In Isaiah 28:16 it is said that God lays in Zion for a foundation some special stone, a very precious stone which is to be placed on the corner of Zion’s building. According to Islam’s tradition, when Abraham and Ismail (peace be upon them) were laying the foundation of Kaaba and then was almost finished, Allah gave to them a heavenly stone, which is now called the “Black Stone” placed in the corner of the wall of Kaaba (zawiya mukarrama). In Psalm 48:12, pilgrims are told to encircle Zion. It is well known in Islam that pilgrims must encircle Kaaba (see Quran 22:29). There are few other striking allusions as well.
My other question is that if Prophet Muhammad fulfilled most of the messianic prophecies then why is Jesus Christ called the Messiah in Islam. Did he do anything special to gain the title? We know that he only came to confirm the law and the gospel and give glad tidings of a messenger to come after him. And we also know that he didn't liberate the jews from the Roman Empire. Then why was he given this title?
As I tried to explain you in my previous posts, personally I do not believe in other Messiah besides Jesus (pbuh), because my source - i.e. the Quran and hadiths – mentions zero about two messiahs like in this corrupted Torah in which you will find e.g. that David is called Messiah, and now even Moses in Qumran texts is called the Messiah. Why the Jews were calling them by this title, I don’t know, but I know that Allah has cursed them, and exposed them in many ways. For instance, Allah has revealed in the Quran that the Jews and Christians calls themselves “Sons of God”. Isn’t written in Psalm 82:6 “You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High” ? This is of course a wishful thinking, since they desired so to be called in such a manner, but Allah didn’t affirm it, in contrary, He explicitly refused their claims, and this automatically mean that the words “You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High” from Psalm 82:6 must have been inserted by those arrogant Jews who abolished Allah’s law. So, this weird Jewish teaching about many Messiahs – paradoxically excluding Jesus (pbuh) from this group! – is insane and have no support from Islam sources.
Take care, and salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)
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Dear brother Idris
Do you know what the seven seals is in the book of revelations? Is it related to the sealed scripture in Isaiah? And in the book of revelations it speaks of a New Jerusalem? What exactly is New Jerusalem in Islam?
Thank you
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I think personally New Jerusalem is refering to Jerusalem under muslim rule since we innovated it and bought alot of stuff in it.
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Assalamun alaikum
I actually thought that New Jerusalem was the Holy city of Mecca.