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Title: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 07, 2013, 12:51:48 AM
(Quran 6.133)  If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to WHATEVER He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people.

Allah can get rid of Us and make another creature succeed just as he produced US from another people!

Note: The Quran specifically uses the word "Whatever" or "What" ("ma" in Arabic ما). This Arabic word "ma" cannot refer to humans; this word is strictly reserved for non-humans (the Arabic word that does refer to humans is "men من", meaning "who" or "whoever" but it was not used here). This verse says that if God wishes He can make our descendants nonhuman just like our ancestors. Further this verse is referring to ALL of mankind (as Quran 6:130 shows in context). So all of mankind was produced from descendants of another people (hominids).

(Quran 4:133) If it were His will, He could destroy you, o mankind, and create another race; for He hath power this to do.
(Quran 35:16) If He wills, He can do away with you and bring forth a new creation.
(Quran 47:38) And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you.


^Again, we see a reference to Allah destroying Mankind and creating another people. If you notice from the context the verse before 35:16 shows that its talking about mankind. Now with verse 6:133 in mind and the other verses, what do you propose is the mechanism Allah would use? Further Quran 47:38 explicitly says that the other people the Quran is talking about in 6:133 will not be like us and that we descended from another people NOT like us! 
----------------

Let me get an opinion please.

May Allah bless you and your families. And may Syria be at peace! 
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 07, 2013, 01:03:11 AM
I also just wanted to point out that ALL verses in the Quran point to some kind of process in the origins of life. Even the ones about Adam forming from clay!

The first verses to be told to the prophet Muhammad (pbuh):

(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance

^This includes Adam. The Quran is never short of words!

Quran (3:59) Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.

^Jesus is like Adam. They were both born in a womb. This idea of God saying "be, and he was" could be some sort of intervention in the womb to make Jesus or Adam.

I'm looking for opinions, I know this is a controversial topic.

Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Egyptian on September 07, 2013, 07:36:53 AM

peace Bro Mclinkin

My opinion is that linking the noble verse with" human evolution?" is going far beyond the possible meanings .....

actually the best you can guess from the verses"if you won't accept how they were understood by most tafsir books" ,is that the verses refer to a process of replacement not evolution.....

next post I will highlight ALL the verse related to the issue ,inshallah...



Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: adnaanshaikh195 on September 07, 2013, 09:02:25 AM
Stop with these stupid conspiracies.

The Prophet Adam (May Allah send peace upon him) was NOT created in a womb.

"[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, “Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay."(Qur’an 38:71)

Allah created Adam in Jannah, and then by the will of Allah, Adam and Hawwa ate from the tree which they were forbidden to do so and were sent down to earth as a punishment. We didn't evolve or any crap related to that.



Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Egyptian on September 07, 2013, 10:17:46 AM


we need to visit "to substitude x instead of M " and  "to make x succesor of M"...

The first noble verse we should visit is:


Holy quran 9:38 O you who believe! What (excuse) have you that when it is said to you: Go forth in Allah's way, you should incline heavily to earth; are you contented with this world's life instead of the hereafter? But the provision of this world's life compared with the hereafter is but little.If you do not go forth, He will chastise you with a painful chastisement and bring in your place a people other than you, and you will do Him no harm; and Allah has power over all things.

-Who are the humans whom Allah warned to be punished and substituted? The believers during the prophet's era.
-what is the punishment? not mentioned but could be a curse from Allah to be humilated in the world ,and not necessarily to be eradicated.
what is the substitution? could be any other folk who will be more faithful and ready to do the task of supporting the prophet peace be upon him....
nothing in the verse to suggest that those who might substitute them are their seed or  other creatures succeed...



now to the next verse...

Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Egyptian on September 07, 2013, 10:32:55 AM

Muhammad 47:38 Behold, [O believers,] it is you who are called upon to spend freely in God’s cause: but [even] among you are such as turn out to be niggardly! And yet, he who acts niggardly [in God’s cause] is but niggardly towards his own self: for God is indeed self-sufficient, whereas you stand in need [of Him]; and if you turn away [from Him], He will cause other people to take your place, and they will not be the likes of you! and Allah has power over all things......


the noble verse is similar to the previous one...  a warning to those who acts niggardly,to be substituted of other folk who will not be likes of them but more generous and zealous for Islam....
It is not a threat of eradication ,neither other creatures substituting them...

it is not reasonable to think that Allah wants to send a message to those turn out to be niggardly, that they are going to be substituted with some other people looks physically diferent !!!

clear??

now with our next noble verse...
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 07, 2013, 11:03:31 AM

it is not reasonable to think that Allah wants to send a message to those turn out to be niggardly, that they are going to be substituted with some other people looks physically diferent !!!


If you look at ibn Kathir's tafsir of Quran 6:133 he mentions the verses I posted in my original post and he connects them together

But if you think about it, how is Allah going to substitute people that will be different in worship? By making them different. If you notice in this verse here:

(Quran 35:16) If He wills, He can do away with you and bring forth a new creation.

^it refers to a new creation. If you look at the verse before that it is speaking to all of mankind!

Also notice this one:

(Quran 2:30) And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority."

The arabic word used mean successor. Allah will put on the earth a successor! An authority to rule over earth. It could very well be through a process of evolution. So here we see Allah's method is to make a creature succeed over another.

If you combine Quran 6:133 and the fact it uses the word "ma" instead of "min", with Quran 35:16 which tells you it is a new creation, with Quran 47:38 which tells you that the people Allah will make succeed will be different in us. Remember that Allah wants people to worship him and he wants it to be their choice, if we don't make the choice, he will eradicate us and create a new creation to succeed us! I think that you would have to accept that those verses hint at the fact that we were descendants of another people. I think this is too overwhelming in my opinion.

Quran 3:33-34 refers to Adam as a descendant of someone else and he was chosen over them. "Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds, Descendants, some of them from others. "

^this should be sufficient by itself.



Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Egyptian on September 07, 2013, 11:07:45 AM
Bro Mclinkin ..  I haven't finished all the verses related yet ,and I'm about to answer your question in the conclusion ..
and will be pleased to read any notes..


the next similar verse:


Holy Quran 6:28 Behold, they [who are unmindful of God] love this fleeting life, and leave behind them [all thought of] a grief-laden Day.[They will not admit to themselves that] it We who have created them and strengthened their make - and [that] if it be Our will We can replace them entirely with others of their kind.

.........

now with verses with broader meaning :

Holy quran 14:19 Have you not seen how God has really created Heaven and Earth? If He so wished, He would remove you and bring on a fresh creation.

Holy quran  4:133 If He so wills, He can cause you, O mankind, to disappear, and bring forth other beings [in your stead]: for God has indeed the power to do this.

in the previous verses Allah the almighty affims that he can eradicate the humans and brings forth others ...
no meaning should be conjectured beyond what I mentioned....

.....................................................

our next noble verse

Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 07, 2013, 11:27:35 AM
Stop with these stupid conspiracies.

The Prophet Adam (May Allah send peace upon him) was NOT created in a womb.

"[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, “Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay."(Qur’an 38:71)

Allah created Adam in Jannah, and then by the will of Allah, Adam and Hawwa ate from the tree which they were forbidden to do so and were sent down to earth as a punishment. We didn't evolve or any crap related to that.

The verse did not say Adam wasn't created in a womb. Rather it said a human being was going to be created from clay! The first cell that existed in earth is believed to have formed in some kind of shallow water/swamp with mud/clay rather than the deep ocean because the deep ocean is dillute. In fact, the Quran said that ALL living things were created from water! And from evolutionary perspective, it is LITERALLY true!

If anything this verse is hinting that Adam was created from the Earth. We look at evolution and we see that the first cell LITERALLY formed from clay and eventually through a process of natural selection, it gets more complex. A process of proportioning.

If you look at the next verse: "So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration

Here is a verse similar to that:

Quran 32:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

^So Allah made everything he created better. This is hinting at something.

Quran 32:8 THEN He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

^After creation from clay, our posterity comes from an extract of sperm. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.

Quran 32:9 THEN He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

^After sexual reproduction, we were proportioned into the right way and we have developed a higher consciousness (that's what the verse is implying).

Compare this to the idea that we came from lower forms of life. We were literally created from wet earth (clay), and then after a while sexual reproduction developed. And through the process of sexual reproduction, we were proportioned and given consciousness. The process of sexual reproduction creates even more variation and makes evolution even more successful.

isn't it amazing, how Allah's method of creation is so ingenious? Rather, I have a hard time believing that Allah is a wizard that pulls creatures out of a magic hat one-by-one. I think this is an age old myth. When you examine the Quran which specifically tells us that we had a process of creation and that we descended from other people not like us.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: adnaanshaikh195 on September 07, 2013, 12:10:37 PM
Lol, you find it hard to believe that Allah created as in that way?

Sorry, i believe that Allah is all powerful and can do everything.

We descend from The Prophet Adam, not monkeys.

Adam did NOT evolve or what ever, Adam was created in Jannah at first. He was created by clay of the earth that the angels when to gather from the earth.
Everything is CREATED by water because in the beginning it was Allah and water.

Don't try to look for loopholes in the Qur'an etc, we are supposed to understand it in the same way the companions understood it. The same with ahadith, we cannot make what is halal, haraam and do the opposite, (i'm not saying you are btw).

Adam did not evolve or any crap related to that, he was an entirely new creation.

When Allah creates something, he simply says Kun Fayakoon.
"Be and it is".

I'm offended by your wizard reference etc.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Egyptian on September 07, 2013, 12:19:04 PM

If you note in the previous two noble verses, Allah afirms his ability to make new creation ,but not through evolving from previous humans ,but after eradicating the whole humanity ...so no space here to impose evolution on the noble verses....


......................



the next noble verses :

from changing the nature of your existence and bringing you into being [anew] in a manner [as yet] unknown to you.



Holy quran 56:61Have you ever considered what you emit? Did you create it, or are We its Creators? We have ordained death for (all of) you; no one will get ahead to prevent Us  from changing your attributes, and transforming you into something you would never recognize.

the words in bold were understood by some tafsir scholars as:

"in replacing you with others the same as you and re-forming you in a way you know nothing about. "

If the verse could be understood as a threaten then the first meaning is more sound........
and the meaning would be a threat to them of transforming their physical appearance to be like Apes or pigs... it could also mean ,Allah is able to change both the appearance and the behaviour of them ,as he wishes..

Whatever meaning you adhere to ,there is nothing in the verse that suggests that Allah did so, neither in past or future....

Allah's ability to do something ,doesn't neccesarily requires ,that he already did it.


our next noble verse
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 07, 2013, 12:35:16 PM
Lol, you find it hard to believe that Allah created as in that way?

Sorry, i believe that Allah is all powerful and can do everything.

We descend from The Prophet Adam, not monkeys.

Adam did NOT evolve or what ever, Adam was created in Jannah at first. He was created by clay of the earth that the angels when to gather from the earth.
Everything is CREATED by water because in the beginning it was Allah and water.

Don't try to look for loopholes in the Qur'an etc, we are supposed to understand it in the same way the companions understood it. The same with ahadith, we cannot make what is halal, haraam and do the opposite, (i'm not saying you are btw).

Adam did not evolve or any crap related to that, he was an entirely new creation.

When Allah creates something, he simply says Kun Fayakoon.
"Be and it is".

I'm offended by your wizard reference etc.

Hello brother, the point I was trying to make is that Evolution is a more ingenious process than making every creature by hand.

Adam was not created in Jannah first. There is no such thing in the Quran, Adam was reworded to stay in Heaven with his wife AFTER he won the contest against the angels (the naming of creatures) as Quran stated clearly in 2:35 and 7:19 (please read the context of those verses). When Adam disobeyed Allah and ate from the tree him and his wife were sent back to Earth.

Take a look at Quran 2:30 All the way to Quran 2:35. Allah put a successive authority in Earth and then told Adam to recite the names Allah has taught him. Adam was able to, and he was given to dwell in paradise with his wife.

The Quran many times says that we were created FROM the earth (like 11:61).

The problem with the interpretation of the Quran the same way the companions understood it, is that, the Quran is meant for all times and places, not just them. The Quran puts verses that supports their beliefs and our beliefs without contradicting either belief. The companions believed the Earth was flat, shall be believe like them? Of course not. The Quran did not say that, rather it hinted at their belief and it avoided words to contradict our belief that the Earth is round. The Quran does this on purpose.

What's Halal and Haraam will stay though.

When Allah creates something he says "be, and it is". Exactly. ALlah creates the universe and makes evolution happen. All he says is "be" and it is. That by no means contradicts evolution.

Thank you brother Egyptian so far, I will respond when you write the conclusion :)
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Egyptian on September 07, 2013, 12:55:05 PM

(Quran 2:30) And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority."


First : successor here was always understood as succesor to jin on one hand ,or a successor - representative of Allah on Earth, judging by his law..

the second meaning is strong ,as it is supported by similar verse:

Quran 2:30 O David, We have made you a successor on Earth. Therefore, you shall judge among the people with truth...

Second : even if we assume for the sake of argument that Adam was a successor to other humans, what is there in the verse to suggest that Adam evolved from those Ape like humans ,instead of Adam was a succesor to them after they were eradicated totally from Earth??



to be concluded next post

Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: adnaanshaikh195 on September 07, 2013, 12:58:19 PM
Alhamdulillah, it's good you are open minded, BUT Adam was created in Jannah, NOT on earth.

There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE to support that Adam was created on earth and was "sent" to Jannah. Don't come up with your own assumptions with no evidence, this is very dangerous.

Allah created Adam in Jannah, and when Allah gave life to him, he went to give salaams to the angels etc, then at a later period Iblees and other angels were commanded to bow to him.

"We said: 'O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression.'  (The Noble Quran, 2:35)".

It was AFTER Satan refused to bow and he tempted them to eat from the tree that they were expelled from Jannah:

"We said: 'Get ye down all from here: And if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.  But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein.'  (The Noble Quran, 2:38-39)"


Allah created Adam in Jannah, and from Adam's rib did Allah create Hawwa. It was the decree/plan of Allah all along for him to eat from the tree which resulted in him (Adam) from being expelled from Jannah.

Abu Hurairah narrated that Allah's Messenger said: "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam: Your sin expelled you from Paradise. Adam said to him: 'You are Moses whom Allah selected as His messenger and as the one to whom He spoke directly. Yet you blame me for a thing which had already been written in my fate before my Creation?' Allah's Prophet Muhammad said twice: "So, Adam outclassed Moses."
Umar Ibn Al-Khattab also narrated that Prophet Muhammad said: "Moses said: 'My Lord! May I see Adam who removed us and himself from the Paradise?' So Allah made him see Adam, and he said to him: 'Are you Adam?' Adam said: 'Yes.' And he said: 'Were you the one in whom Allah breathed His spirit, and before whom He bowed His angels, and to whom He taught the names of all things?' Adam answered: 'Yes.' So Moses said: 'What made you remove us and yourself from Paradise?' Adam said unto him: 'Who are you?' He said: 'I am Moses.' Adam said: 'So you are Moses the prophet of the Children of Israel. Were you the one Allah spoke to directly?' Moses answered: 'Yes.' Adam said: 'Why do you blame me for a matter which Allah had predestined?"' So Allah's Prophet Muhammad said twice. "Adam outclassed Moses."

We are all descendants of Adam. And Adam was not created in an evolutionary process, he is a separate creation. Every single human on earth today and throughout history has descended from Adam, EXCEPT Jesus, he has no linage.

We do not descend from anyone but Adam.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 07, 2013, 01:46:34 PM
Alhamdulillah, it's good you are open minded, BUT Adam was created in Jannah, NOT on earth.

There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE to support that Adam was created on earth and was "sent" to Jannah. Don't come up with your own assumptions with no evidence, this is very dangerous.

Allah created Adam in Jannah, and when Allah gave life to him, he went to give salaams to the angels etc, then at a later period Iblees and other angels were commanded to bow to him.

"We said: 'O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression.'  (The Noble Quran, 2:35)".

It was AFTER Satan refused to bow and he tempted them to eat from the tree that they were expelled from Jannah:

"We said: 'Get ye down all from here: And if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.  But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein.'  (The Noble Quran, 2:38-39)"


Allah created Adam in Jannah, and from Adam's rib did Allah create Hawwa. It was the decree/plan of Allah all along for him to eat from the tree which resulted in him (Adam) from being expelled from Jannah.

Abu Hurairah narrated that Allah's Messenger said: "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam: Your sin expelled you from Paradise. Adam said to him: 'You are Moses whom Allah selected as His messenger and as the one to whom He spoke directly. Yet you blame me for a thing which had already been written in my fate before my Creation?' Allah's Prophet Muhammad said twice: "So, Adam outclassed Moses."
Umar Ibn Al-Khattab also narrated that Prophet Muhammad said: "Moses said: 'My Lord! May I see Adam who removed us and himself from the Paradise?' So Allah made him see Adam, and he said to him: 'Are you Adam?' Adam said: 'Yes.' And he said: 'Were you the one in whom Allah breathed His spirit, and before whom He bowed His angels, and to whom He taught the names of all things?' Adam answered: 'Yes.' So Moses said: 'What made you remove us and yourself from Paradise?' Adam said unto him: 'Who are you?' He said: 'I am Moses.' Adam said: 'So you are Moses the prophet of the Children of Israel. Were you the one Allah spoke to directly?' Moses answered: 'Yes.' Adam said: 'Why do you blame me for a matter which Allah had predestined?"' So Allah's Prophet Muhammad said twice. "Adam outclassed Moses."

We are all descendants of Adam. And Adam was not created in an evolutionary process, he is a separate creation. Every single human on earth today and throughout history has descended from Adam, EXCEPT Jesus, he has no linage.

We do not descend from anyone but Adam.

Thank you brother for your kind response.

Unfortunately, the verses in Surah Al-Baqarah do not show that Adam was created in paradise NOR Earth. They do not at all show that. All they say is that Adam had some sort of competition in naming and then Allah told him to dwell in the Garden and not eat from the tree. The verses does not say Adam was created in paradise, nor does it say anything about a rib.

So in order to understand whether or not Adam was created in Earth or not, we have to consult other verses and combine them together!

(Quran 71:14)  God created you in diverse stages

^Please look at my explanation of Quran 32:7-9, they show that the creation of Adam was not instant and had a process.

(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.

^That means we (humans) grew out from the Earth, not from paradise.

(Quran 11:61) It is He Who has produced you from the earth and settled you therein..

^We were produced from the earth AND settled in

(Quran 53:32) "He is Best Aware of you (from the time) when He created you from the earth, and when you were hidden in the bellies of your mothers. Therefore, do not attribute purity to your souls; He knows him best who guards (against evil).

^There are TWO MAJOR steps in our creation (this of course includes Adam) . 1. When we were created from the Earth  2. When we were in the womb--notice how this verse separates these two major events.

I hope that by this, we can reasonably conclude Adam was created from the Earth and so are we.

---------------------

Also here the Quran EXPLICITLY tells us Adam was a descendant of someone: Quran 3:33-34: "Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds. DESCENDANTS, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing".

So Adam was chosen over his people to survive. Noah was chosen over his people to survive. Abraham was chosen over his people for the major prophetic linage. The family of Imran was chosen over their people. Etc.
 
This evidence is absolutely overwhelming in my opinion.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Egyptian on September 07, 2013, 01:52:26 PM
(Quran 6.133)  If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to WHATEVER He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people.

Note: The Quran specifically uses the word "Whatever" or "What" ("ma" in Arabic ما). This Arabic word "ma" cannot refer to humans; this word is strictly reserved for non-humans (the Arabic word that does refer to humans is "man من", meaning "who" or "whoever" but it was not used here).



1- The Arabic word "ما ma" can refer to humans , example:

Holy Quran 4:3  But if ye fear that ye cannot do justice between orphans, then marry what "مَا ma" seems good to you of women.

2- the Arabic word " قوم Qawm" which is translated as  "people,folk" in the verse ,is a strong clue that we are descendant of  humans , as the word "qawm" never used in Arabic as a reference to animals, or any non-humans.....   


Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Egyptian on September 07, 2013, 02:20:13 PM
I have some final additions inshallah but not today ...my time is short now


thanx for reading

May Allah bless us all and increase our knowledge...
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 07, 2013, 02:25:46 PM
Hello brother Egyptian. Thank you so much for spending time to reply to me. I just wanted to let you know that before I start, that I am doing nothing but searching for the truth. I strive for intellectual honesty, and this has brought me in life so far. It has made me ultimately convert to Islam. So I will always (God willing) continue using such intellectual honesty in my line of thinking. If I find that something is an honest belief and not one based on excuses (like my previous faith), I usually end supporting such belief.

I thank you for your time, I will create a response to it and then I will make a conclusion in the end detailing which side is the most honest side to be with according to my understanding.

I will reply to each post individually. Please allow time for this :)
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 07, 2013, 02:32:11 PM


we need to visit "to substitude x instead of M " and  "to make x succesor of M"...

The first noble verse we should visit is:


Holy quran 9:38 O you who believe! What (excuse) have you that when it is said to you: Go forth in Allah's way, you should incline heavily to earth; are you contented with this world's life instead of the hereafter? But the provision of this world's life compared with the hereafter is but little.If you do not go forth, He will chastise you with a painful chastisement and bring in your place a people other than you, and you will do Him no harm; and Allah has power over all things.

-Who are the humans whom Allah warned to be punished and substituted? The believers during the prophet's era.
-what is the punishment? not mentioned but could be a curse from Allah to be humilated in the world ,and not necessarily to be eradicated.
what is the substitution? could be any other folk who will be more faithful and ready to do the task of supporting the prophet peace be upon him....
nothing in the verse to suggest that those who might substitute them are their seed or  other creatures succeed...

now to the next verse...

I want to remind you that  chapter 9 is about Islam’s survival. That The prophet Muhammad and his companions have to fight off the oppressors so that Islam could spread! If everyone that believed did not go forth with keeping Islam alive. Allah has threatened them that he will punish them and replace them with another people. That means humanity has failed in spreading Allah’s message by their own choice! Just like in other verses, Allah says that if we fail, he will replace us with another creation. IN quran 9:39, humanity has failed to spread islam because of laziness, and Allah has threatened to remove us and replace us with another people. So yes, it is addressing the believers. But by addressing the believers and the believers failed themselves, then on the earth there are no beleivers and humanity will be replaced by another creation. Time and time again, in the Quran, Allah tells us that if mankind fails, we will be replaced by another creation.  If The only believers at the time (Muslims) failed themselves, Allah will punish them and replace mankind with another people, JUST as he has done before! If all the believers become disbelievers and wrong-doers, humanity has not believers and we failed, so Allah will replace us with another people (just as Quran 6:133 states). When you put all the verses together, it is implying that Allah will replace us and make others succeed us (Quran 6:133) if we fail. So comparing 9:39 with 47:38 does not invalidate each other implying descent with modification! Quran 9:39 tells us that if the believers fail, humanity fails. If humanity fails, we will be replaced with another creature.

The only difference is in 9:39 it is a threat to the believers at the time. The other verses are threats to us right now! That threat still remains, if we all become wrong doers, Allah will replace us with another creature.  Now I agree that Quran 9:39 is not describing whether those people will be different or not, that is why we have to understand the Quran by putting all the verses together!


Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 07, 2013, 02:40:51 PM

Muhammad 47:38 Behold, [O believers,] it is you who are called upon to spend freely in God’s cause: but [even] among you are such as turn out to be niggardly! And yet, he who acts niggardly [in God’s cause] is but niggardly towards his own self: for God is indeed self-sufficient, whereas you stand in need [of Him]; and if you turn away [from Him], He will cause other people to take your place, and they will not be the likes of you! and Allah has power over all things......


the noble verse is similar to the previous one...  a warning to those who acts niggardly,to be substituted of other folk who will not be likes of them but more generous and zealous for Islam....
It is not a threat of eradication ,neither other creatures substituting them...

it is not reasonable to think that Allah wants to send a message to those turn out to be niggardly, that they are going to be substituted with some other people looks physically diferent !!!

clear??

now with our next noble verse...


This verse is saying that if we are wrong-doers (more specifically being cheap), Allah will substitute others with us that are different from us. How will they be different from us, if they are exactly like us? Obviously, they have to have some kind of change!

This verse is nothing more but an extension of 6:133, where they both show, that if we become wrong-doers, we will be replaced by some other people. Quran 47:38, ends up telling us that those people will be different from us! That should be very compelling evidence, coupled with why verse 6:133 uses 'ma' instead of 'min', that evidence is rather compelling.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 07, 2013, 02:50:38 PM
Bro Mclinkin ..  I haven't finished all the verses related yet ,and I'm about to answer your question in the conclusion ..
and will be pleased to read any notes..


the next similar verse:


Holy Quran 6:28 Behold, they [who are unmindful of God] love this fleeting life, and leave behind them [all thought of] a grief-laden Day.[They will not admit to themselves that] it We who have created them and strengthened their make - and [that] if it be Our will We can replace them entirely with others of their kind.

.........

now with verses with broader meaning :

Holy quran 14:19 Have you not seen how God has really created Heaven and Earth? If He so wished, He would remove you and bring on a fresh creation.

Holy quran  4:133 If He so wills, He can cause you, O mankind, to disappear, and bring forth other beings [in your stead]: for God has indeed the power to do this.

in the previous verses Allah the almighty affims that he can eradicate the humans and brings forth others ...
no meaning should be conjectured beyond what I mentioned....

.....................................................

our next noble verse


So in Quran 76:28 (you made a typo and said 6:28  :), if you don’t mind correcting it so others may use it as a reference  :) ).

 Notice how it says: “We have created them and strengthened their forms, and when We will, We can change their likenesses with [complete] alteration.” Its talking about how we have been created and our forms have been strengthened. And when Allah chooses, he can CHANGE our FORMS.

Now, I agree that Quran 14:19 and 4:133 are general, but nonetheless, when you combine all of the verses that refer to ending humanity and allowing a successor, it starts making sense that our successor and our ancestors, were non-human. So, no, its not conjecture, it is an analysis of reality.

Secondly, I believe these verses show that Adam had an ancestor and he was picked over them, and that they were all descendants of others:

Quran 3:33-34: "Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds. DESCENDANTS, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing".

So Adam was chosen over his people to survive. Noah was chosen over his people to survive. Abraham was chosen over his people for the major prophetic linage. The family of Imran was chosen over their people. Etc.

So combine this verse with the other verses that show Adam having ancestors, who were not human. Since we all know Adam is the FIRST human. By default, his ancestors CANNOT be human. They could be human-like, but not the same thing as Adam.

Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 07, 2013, 02:57:08 PM

If you note in the previous two noble verses, Allah afirms his ability to make new creation ,but not through evolving from previous humans ,but after eradicating the whole humanity ...so no space here to impose evolution on the noble verses....


......................



the next noble verses :

from changing the nature of your existence and bringing you into being [anew] in a manner [as yet] unknown to you.



Holy quran 56:61Have you ever considered what you emit? Did you create it, or are We its Creators? We have ordained death for (all of) you; no one will get ahead to prevent Us  from changing your attributes, and transforming you into something you would never recognize.

the words in bold were understood by some tafsir scholars as:

"in replacing you with others the same as you and re-forming you in a way you know nothing about. "

If the verse could be understood as a threaten then the first meaning is more sound........
and the meaning would be a threat to them of transforming their physical appearance to be like Apes or pigs... it could also mean ,Allah is able to change both the appearance and the behaviour of them ,as he wishes..

Whatever meaning you adhere to ,there is nothing in the verse that suggests that Allah did so, neither in past or future....

Allah's ability to do something ,doesn't neccesarily requires ,that he already did it.


our next noble verse

With regards to the first thing you posted, I disagree, the Quran is not talking about eradicating humanity THEN making something succeed. Instead, it used to word for 'and' signifying it is a simultaneous process. So for example: "(Quran 35:16) If He wills, He can do away with you and bring forth a new creation", there is no "then" in that verse. Allah will do away with us and bring a new creation in that process simultaneously. So a group of humans may mutate in a form, and the other humans will be done away with at the same time. So that Humanity as we know it is different from the newly evolved human.

Like the verse on Muscles forming around the bones, Its a simultaneous process.

 I think that Quran 56:59-62 is referring to the resurrection of mankind rather than anything to do with evolution. It may have to do with it, but considering the context of the chapter, I think its most likely referring to resurrection of mankind. We will be resurrected in a form we don't know.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 07, 2013, 03:05:45 PM

(Quran 2:30) And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority."


First : successor here was always understood as succesor to jin on one hand ,or a successor - representative of Allah on Earth, judging by his law..

the second meaning is strong ,as it is supported by similar verse:

Quran 2:30 O David, We have made you a successor on Earth. Therefore, you shall judge among the people with truth...

Second : even if we assume for the sake of argument that Adam was a successor to other humans, what is there in the verse to suggest that Adam evolved from those Ape like humans ,instead of Adam was a succesor to them after they were eradicated totally from Earth??



to be concluded next post

I agree that it could be applied to Jinn, but I don’t see why it has to, and it may very well be applied to animals. It seems to make more sense that it is referring to Adam being a successor to something that already exists on Earth. If you notice how on the verse the Angels questioned Allah why he would make a creature that causes corruption on Earth. It is as if the Angels knew we cause corruption already.

Allah will make a successive authority on Earth. Doesn't that hint that humans were evolved to be a successful rule on earth? Not only that, the Angels were questioning Allah. How did the Angels know that we cause corruption and shed blood? They saw previous human/hominid generations before Adam cause corruption and shedding blood, so they were questioning Allah as to why he is creating an animal that is corrupt when we (Angels) are perfect? Allah tells them that it is all a part of the plan and he knows humanity will succeed.

Secondly, David was a successive authority on Earth, yes. He was chosen over the other humans to rule the people of Israel! Just as Adam was chosen over the Others.

I also agree that that verse does not show that Adam was a successor to ape-like humans. Rather he was a successor to others. My point was that in verse 2:30, Adam was a successor to someone. A successor with some kind of authority. When you reflect upon evolution, you know that about survival of the fittest. The fittest will be the successful authority of the ecosystem. Currently, that is mankind.

Now why did the verse not just spit it out and say that Adam’s common ancestor was apelike? Well, same reason why the Quran doesn’t just lay it out that the Earth is round, rotating around the sun, or that the Quran just doesn’t go into details of any phenomena. Rather it hints at it. The Quran hints at a round rotating Earth, but doesn’t explicitly state it. The Quran hints at the basic concept of evolution and common descent, but doesn’t explicitly state it. There is a reason for all of that, the reason is if the Quran is meant for all people and all times, it must logically follow that it has to confirm 7th century belief and modern belief without contradicting either belief. So that people from the 7th century are satisfied and that people in current times are satisfied. If the Quran said the Earth is round and that we came from apes, Imagine how much more humiliation the prophet (pbuh) would have gotten? No one would have believed him and some would have doubted him! So the Quran must be vague. Also the Quran is a book of signs. It will only hint at phenomena rather than go into detail on the subject. Its not meant to. Rather it makes hints and allows us to use our intellect to determine whether Allah exists or not.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 07, 2013, 03:48:04 PM
(Quran 6.133)  If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to WHATEVER He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people.

Note: The Quran specifically uses the word "Whatever" or "What" ("ma" in Arabic ما). This Arabic word "ma" cannot refer to humans; this word is strictly reserved for non-humans (the Arabic word that does refer to humans is "man من", meaning "who" or "whoever" but it was not used here).



1- The Arabic word "ما ma" can refer to humans , example:

Holy Quran 4:3  But if ye fear that ye cannot do justice between orphans, then marry what "مَا ma" seems good to you of women.

2- the Arabic word " قوم Qawm" which is translated as  "people,folk" in the verse ,is a strong clue that we are descendant of  humans , as the word "qawm" never used in Arabic as a reference to animals, or any non-humans.....   

 (MAA) points to (daab), placing emphasis on the character THAT is desirable in women.
===

ما طاب لكم من النساء
The pronoun "MAA" precedes "Daab" which means "desirable" or "good" feature. It would be like saying: choose what you desire from other women. Since the verse speaks about men who may desire to marry orphaned women, it tries to shift this desire elsewhere to find it in among other women.

The key point here is the emphasis on the desirable character in women that motivates men to marry them, whether its their beauty, personality, money, or any other legitimate reason.

In Quran 4:3, The word "ma'' is not actually referring to a human. If it was it would have to use "ma" and then say "women" after it. Instead you find that "ma" is used in 2 instances in that verse, it is used before:

- "What Seems good to you OF women"
- "Of women, What Your right hands possess"

So you see "ma" Being used to emphasize a desirable character of the women rather than the women themselves!

If the Quran did not say "Of women" and uses 'ma', then that means the Quran is referring to something non-human. IN Quran 6:133, the Quran does not say of us, it says whatever. So it is referring to something non-human. Also if you read the context of Quran 6:133, it is referring to all of mankind. So he will give succession to whatever he wills, just as he produced ALL of mankind from the descendants of another people. if ALL of mankind descended from another people, then those other people CANNOT be human (Because all of the humans came from them). It seems to fit.

In English, whatever is also a proper usage of 'ma' in this Quran 4:3 sentence. I could say to marry whatever seems good to you OF the women. I could also say Marry whatever your right hands possess OF the women. This means I am not saying the women are a 'what', the 'what' is what my right hand possesses, it includes the women. But the verse made it clear that its about the women.

Contrast this to Quran 6:133, which says that Allah give succession to WHATEVER he chooses after us, and this thing he will give succession to is compared to as "other people". Who are these other people? Remember 6:133 is referring to ALL of mankind, so all of mankind succeeded after "other people". And the Quran referred to them as "what" rather than "who".

Now the Quran has referred to women in 4:3 as "what" rather than "who", but it was referring to what is good to us and what our right hands posses OF women rather than the women themselves. That marks a big difference from 6:133

The fact of the matter is that "ma" means "what", and "man" means "who". 'What' was used instead of 'who'. We must ask, why?

2- The Arabic word "Qawm" was used in Quran 47:38 to denote another people different from us. Also, 6:133 uses the word "other" there as well. So it is a strong indication to a people similar to us, but not like us. The definition of "other" is something similar. And it is used throughout the Quran to determine something similar but with a difference.

Not only that, verse 6:133 is addressing ALL of mankind (as verse 6:130) states. So that means ALL of mankind (including Adam) were the descendants of another people. Quran 47:38 gives us more detail and the following verses also explain that this new replacement of mankind is a new creation

(Quran 4:133) If it were His will, He could do away with you, o mankind, and create another race; for He hath power this to do.
(Quran 35:16) If He wills, He can do away with you and bring forth a new creation.


--------------------------------------------
So in summary, Quran 6:133 supports the idea that mankind were the descendants of a different people:

1.) The context of the verse shows that it is referring to ALL of mankind, and it says that ALL of mankind descended from another people, if Adam was the first human like us, then by default the other people are not like Adam
2.) It uses the word "ma" instead of "min" ("whatever" instead of "whoever") signifying they are non-human
3.)  This verse mirrors Quran 35:16 as they BOTH refer to doing away with us (yudh'hib'kum) and replacing us with another people, verse 35:16 is more specific to us that they (other people) are  a new different creation
4.) Another hint at the "other people" not being like us is verse 47:38, which clearly shows they won't be like us. Further, Quran 76:28 makes it clear that Allah intends on changing the forms of the people (because it describes form changing).

In the end, I think this is overwhelming evidence of the Quranic support on the idea that mankind descended from another being and that a new being may be formed after mankind as well if we disobey, and mankind in its current state will be eradicated to leave a new version of us that are BETTER.

I hope you understand my position. I also wanted to re-state one more verse to make it completely clear that Adam was a descendant from someone:

Quran 3:33-34: "Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds. DESCENDANTS, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing".

So Adam was chosen over his people to survive. Noah was chosen over his people to survive. Abraham was chosen over his people for the major prophetic linage. The family of Imran was chosen over their people. Etc.

So combine this verse with the other verses that show Adam having ancestors, who were not human. Since we all know Adam is the FIRST human. By default, his ancestors CANNOT be human. They could be human-like, but not the same thing as Adam.


 
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Egyptian on September 08, 2013, 07:45:11 AM
I just wanted to let you know that before I start, that I am doing nothing but searching for the truth. I strive for intellectual honesty, and this has brought me in life so far.

I'm glad for your efforts for searching the truth , and the matter under discussion ,should be discussed with relaxation,as it is not a serious one,neither invented by you....

atually few muslims gave alternative readings to some Quranic verse to reach such conclusion ,including the controversial Islamic scholar Abdel-Sabour Shahin... who wrote the book "My Father Adam, the Story of Creation between Myth and Truth."
his book was criticised and his hypothesis were refuted totally by all other scolars in Al-Azhar university and other scholars ,including Dr Zaghloul El-Naggar.
in spite of the criticism ,there is no scholar blasphemied him , as simply his flawed hypothesis won't get him outside the fold of Islam...



the basic falws in the hypothesis ,is that it misapplies verses, go beyond their simple literal meaning,conjecturing much between the lines...

though I agree with you when you said :

The problem with the interpretation of the Quran the same way the companions understood it, is that, the Quran is meant for all times and places, not just them.

but that doesn't mean, we should be zealous to get something out of nothing ....

That The prophet Muhammad and his companions have to fight off the oppressors so that Islam could spread! If everyone that believed did not go forth with keeping Islam alive. Allah has threatened them that he will punish them and replace them with another people. That means humanity has failed in spreading Allah’s message by their own choice! 

It is the believers task to spread Islam to humanity ,and they didn't fail ,they indeed spread it...


then on the earth there are no beleivers...

on Earth there are believers,and they try hard to spread Islam....

If The only believers at the time (Muslims) failed themselves, Allah will punish them and replace mankind with another people.

Muslims don't fail in spreading Islam,and islam is the fastest growing religion...

If all the believers become disbelievers and wrong-doers.

no warning in the verse for the believers that if they become disbelievers and wrong-doers,they will be replaced by other evolved mankind ...... but simply "assuming the believers as a general term encompassing all the muslims all over the ages,and not merely the companions of the prophet" If they won't support the prophet in Jihad ,they will be punished humilated and be replaced by those who have more faith and zeal to jihad..



To be continued



Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Black Muslim on September 08, 2013, 09:28:37 AM
I don't know why would anyone try so hard to prove that he's a descendant of apes just to please the ones who made such a ridiculous theory which science keeps proving wrong day after day .
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 08, 2013, 11:27:54 AM
I don't know why would anyone try so hard to prove that he's a descendant of apes just to please the ones who made such a ridiculous theory which science keeps proving wrong day after day .

Hello brother,

We are not descendants of apes, we share a common ancestor with them. The descendant nature is very gradual, it makes Allah an even more ingenious creator than we thought ever before. This mechanism of creation is absolutely breath-taking.

Further, we have extremely compelling evidence of evolution and it's never been proven wrong. In fact, all the evidence we have point to evolution. Currently, scientists are getting closer to finding living proof of Macro-evolution despite all of the evidence we have.

Denying evolution is an embarrassment to be honest. I studied evolution, and I would hesitate to call it a theory. Denying evolution would be like those Christians who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old and was literally created in 6 24 hour days. They are an embarrassment to the world. We do not want Islam to be an embarrassment ESPECIALLY if our own SCRIPTURE supports the idea of a gradual diverse process behind creation that involved descent from human-like creatures!

If Adam was the first human and he was a descendant of something, then it must logically follow that this something is not human. All you need to do is reflect upon this verse

Quran 3:33-34: "Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds. DESCENDANTS, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing"

^Here, the Quran called Adam a descendant.

Further the Quran tells us to travel through the Earth and see the ends of people who failed:

Quran 47:10 Have they not traveled through the land and seen how was the end of those before them? Allah destroyed [everything] over them, and for the disbelievers is something comparable.

^We HAVE traveled through the land and seen the end of those before us. AND THEY WERE NOT HUMAN, rather, human-like. This confirms the other verses we were talking about. Those before us were not human, just as verse 47:38 tells us that the future people will not be human.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: abdullah on September 08, 2013, 11:48:47 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGdXKLipHfY
Theological debate on evolution
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Black Muslim on September 08, 2013, 11:51:44 AM
Quote
We are not descendants of apes, we share a common ancestor with them
So instead of saying that apes are our ancestors , they are actually our cousins ? Yeah , much difference .

Quote
The descendant nature is very gradual, it makes Allah an even more ingenious creator than we thought ever before. This mechanism of creation is absolutely breath-taking.
I'll say it flat out : This mechanism of evolution is 100% myth that isn't supported by other than hoaxes and lies . And it clearly goes against Islam which says that Allah created our father Adam - peace upon him - from mud by his hands in his current form ( The form of father Adam and not Allah . To make sure there is no misunderstanding ) .
And if you really don't agree with the meaning of these signs of Quran and the sayings of prophet Muhammad , would you try to build a false miracle upon a lie which is proven to be a lie day after day ? Nobody said there are no miracles in the noble Quran but trying to come up with one out of any and everything is just a farce .

Quote
Further, we have extremely compelling evidence of evolution and it's never been proven wrong. In fact, all the evidence we have point to evolution. Currently, scientists are getting closer to finding living proof of Macro-evolution despite all of the evidence we have.
Denying evolution is an embarrassment to be honest. I studied evolution, and I would hesitate to call it a theory. Denying evolution would be like those Christians who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old and was literally created in 6 24 hour days. They are an embarrassment to the world. We do not want Islam to be an embarrassment ESPECIALLY if our own SCRIPTURE supports the idea of a gradual diverse process behind creation that involved descent from human-like creatures!
It seems that I was right . You're astonished with what the west has of advancement and therefore you don't want to defy them but at the same time you don't want to defy Islam so you try to gather between gold and sand . Tell you what ? Drop by here and I assure you that you'll be shocked to know that what they've been feeding you about evolution is but a huge lie .
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/forum.php?
Just write "تطور" in the search box and choose any post . Or does it make you feel insecure ?
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: abdullah on September 08, 2013, 12:50:44 PM
Assalamualykum
Brother, you should realize that evolution is based on a weak philosophy. It is the idea that the only way to establish truth is from science.
This fails because science can't explain how life came from non life, how humans are conscious, what came before the big bang,etc...
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 08, 2013, 12:53:27 PM
Quote
We are not descendants of apes, we share a common ancestor with them
So instead of saying that apes are our ancestors , they are actually our cousins ? Yeah , much difference .

Quote
The descendant nature is very gradual, it makes Allah an even more ingenious creator than we thought ever before. This mechanism of creation is absolutely breath-taking.
I'll say it flat out : This mechanism of evolution is 100% myth that isn't supported by other than hoaxes and lies . And it clearly goes against Islam which says that Allah created our father Adam - peace upon him - from mud by his hands in his current form ( The form of father Adam and not Allah . To make sure there is no misunderstanding ) .
And if you really don't agree with the meaning of these signs of Quran and the sayings of prophet Muhammad , would you try to build a false miracle upon a lie which is proven to be a lie day after day ? Nobody said there are no miracles in the noble Quran but trying to come up with one out of any and everything is just a farce .

Quote
Further, we have extremely compelling evidence of evolution and it's never been proven wrong. In fact, all the evidence we have point to evolution. Currently, scientists are getting closer to finding living proof of Macro-evolution despite all of the evidence we have.
Denying evolution is an embarrassment to be honest. I studied evolution, and I would hesitate to call it a theory. Denying evolution would be like those Christians who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old and was literally created in 6 24 hour days. They are an embarrassment to the world. We do not want Islam to be an embarrassment ESPECIALLY if our own SCRIPTURE supports the idea of a gradual diverse process behind creation that involved descent from human-like creatures!
It seems that I was right . You're astonished with what the west has of advancement and therefore you don't want to defy them but at the same time you don't want to defy Islam so you try to gather between gold and sand . Tell you what ? Drop by here and I assure you that you'll be shocked to know that what they've been feeding you about evolution is but a huge lie .
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/forum.php?
Just write "تطور" in the search box and choose any post . Or does it make you feel insecure ?

The mechanism of evolution is not a myth. Is there a piece of evidence that tells you it is a myth?

Allah says in the Quran he created Adam from an extract of clay and it says that Allah has done it with his hands. Does Allah have hands? Of course not! Its metaphoric. It means Allah has created man from his handiwork and he is comparing it to molding something with clay with hands. Something that has a process! A process of shaping us to get our form! Compare to what evolution explains! Evolution explains Allah's method of creation in accurate detail.

Now, what's even more interesting about that is that we actually believe that the first cell LITERALLY came from wet-earth (mud/clay). We say it is improbable the first cell came from the deep ocean because things are too dilute there to support life with the necessary molecules. So even science confirms the Quran here.

So yes, Allah has ultimately created mankind from clay. I will show you a series of verses to state my point:

Quran 32:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

^So Allah made everything he created better. This is hinting at a process of creation.

Quran 32:8 THEN He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

^AFTER creation from clay, our posterity comes from an extract of sperm. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.

Quran 32:9 THEN He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

^AFTER sexual reproduction, we were proportioned into the right way and we have developed a higher consciousness (that's what the verse is implying).

Compare this to the idea that we came from lower forms of life. We were literally created from wet earth (clay), and then after a while sexual reproduction developed. And through the process of sexual reproduction, we were proportioned and given consciousness. The process of sexual reproduction creates even more variation and makes evolution even more successful.

-------------------------------

Is there any specific thing about evolution that you have a problem with? Its not a huge lie at all, what hoaxes do you speak about? How about my personal testimony that I have seen micro-evolution live and we are about to exhibit macro-evolution.

How about all of the:
1.) Fossil Evidence
2.) Genetic evidence
3.) Molecular evidence
4.) Evidence from proteins
5.) Vestigial and atavistic organs
6.) Embryology
7.) Biogeography
8.) Homology
9.) Bacteriology
10.) exhibitions of macro-evolution:

a. Two strains of fruit flies lost the ability to interbreed and produce fertile offspring in the lab over a 4-year span ... i.e. they became two new species. (Easily repeated experiment.)

b. A new plant species (a type of fireweed), created by a doubling of the chromosome count from the original stock (Mosquin, 1967).

c. Multiple species of the house mouse unique to the Faeroe Islands occurred within 250 years of introduction of a foundation species on the island.

d. Formation of 5 new species of cichlid fishes that have formed in a single lake within 4,000 years of introduction of a parent species.

^This is very strong evidence and we haven't even scratched the surface!



Brother please study the science, imagine just disregarding Allah's method of creation and what's said in the Quran? Imagine the insult to Allah. Allah encourages us to study. And many times in the Quran, shows us that mankind, which includes Adam was created from ALAQ. Allah is never short of words:

(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance

^Why is it that ALL scientific evidence and ALL verses in the Quran about creation, tend to point to the idea of creation through a process. But denying Allah's ingenious process is rather disturbing to me and very insulting to Allah.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 08, 2013, 01:00:20 PM
Assalamualykum
Brother, you should realize that evolution is based on a weak philosophy. It is the idea that the only way to establish truth is from science.
This fails because science can't explain how life came from non life, how humans are conscious, what came before the big bang,etc...

I agree to a point. Science absolutely cannot explain everything. But when you have overwhelming evidence to support a certain fact, like the earth is older than 6,000 years old--then you can reasonably say that the Earth is more than 6,000 years old. If you cannot, then you have no way or method to understanding anything!

When ALL of the evidence we have points that creation had a process and it wasn't through Allah putting creatures by hand on Earth one-by-one, then its sufficient to believe creation had a process.

Logically, an all knowing-all powerful creator, would derive an extremely ingenious method of creation. Can we agree on that?
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Black Muslim on September 08, 2013, 02:16:12 PM
Quote
The mechanism of evolution is not a myth. Is there a piece of evidence that tells you it is a myth?
Piece ? There are mountains of evidence proving it wrong and showing scandals of hoaxes done in order to prove it be Atheists and non-Atheists . Come to us where I told you and we'll show you that we have "Pieces" of evidence .

Quote
Allah says in the Quran he created Adam from an extract of clay and it says that Allah has done it with his hands. Does Allah have hands? Of course not! Its metaphoric. It means Allah has created man from his handiwork and he is comparing it to molding something with clay with hands. Something that has a process!
It seems I'm dealing with a retreat (Mu'tazil) ! Something for another time which we'll be more than glad to debate you about there .

Quote
Now, what's even more interesting about that is that we actually believe that the first cell LITERALLY came from wet-earth (mud/clay). We say it is improbable the first cell came from the deep ocean because things are too dilute there to support life with the necessary molecules. So even science confirms the Quran here.
I couldn't care what you think . Evolution in all of its forms which keep changing whenever evidence appears proving it wrong are just wrong .

So yes, Allah has ultimately created mankind from clay. I will show you a series of verses to state my point:

Quote
Quran 32:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.
^So Allah made everything he created better. This is hinting at a process of creation.
Improper explanation . Allah perfected what he created . How do you come out of this with the idea that it means evolution ?! When I say that I perfected this picture I have been drawing does it mean it evolved after I was done with it ?!

Quote
Quran 32:8 THEN He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.
^AFTER creation from clay, our posterity comes from an extract of sperm. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.
Improper as well . The beginning of humans were creating our father Adam of clay . After that , there wasn't direct creation of clay anymore . It was through the marriage of males and females . Again , how do you come out of this with evolution ?!

Quote
Quran 32:9 THEN He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.
^AFTER sexual reproduction, we were proportioned into the right way and we have developed a higher consciousness (that's what the verse is implying).
Writing words in capital doesn't help . Here , after the child start forming an angle is sent to blow a soul into him and then Allah gives this child sight and hearing and heart . Yet again , how do you come out of this with evolution ?!

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Compare this to the idea that we came from lower forms of life. We were literally created from wet earth (clay), and then after a while sexual reproduction developed. And through the process of sexual reproduction, we were proportioned and given consciousness. The process of sexual reproduction creates even more variation and makes evolution even more successful.
If everyone followed this line of thinking then we should tolerate those who say we were created by aliens from outer space .

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Is there any specific thing about evolution that you have a problem with? Its not a huge lie at all, what hoaxes do you speak about? How about my personal testimony that I have seen micro-evolution live and we are about to exhibit macro-evolution.
Everything about evolution makes a problem to me and every honest person . First of all , it contradicts Islam . Secondly it's not supported by any kind of proper evidence unless you really believe what you wrote is fit to be called evidence . Thirdly , it is supported by loads of lies and hoaxes and the most famous are the belt-down man and Nebraska-man . Look it up .

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How about all of the:
1.) Fossil Evidence
2.) Genetic evidence
3.) Molecular evidence
4.) Evidence from proteins
5.) Vestigial and atavistic organs
6.) Embryology
7.) Biogeography
8.) Homology
9.) Bacteriology
10.) exhibitions of macro-evolution:
All of this follows the example of the one who said Jellyfish are not deadly because they're cute . So , a guy finds a skull of a monkey , that means we and apes are cousins ?! I told you , drop why and we'll show you one by one that all what they claim as evidence is nothing more than a load of lies .

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a. Two strains of fruit flies lost the ability to interbreed and produce fertile offspring in the lab over a 4-year span ... i.e. they became two new species. (Easily repeated experiment.)
b. A new plant species (a type of fireweed), created by a doubling of the chromosome count from the original stock (Mosquin, 1967).
c. Multiple species of the house mouse unique to the Faeroe Islands occurred within 250 years of introduction of a foundation species on the island.
d. Formation of 5 new species of cichlid fishes that have formed in a single lake within 4,000 years of introduction of a parent species.
^This is very strong evidence and we haven't even scratched the surface!
Truth be told , I'm not a scientist and I don't know much about biology . But you don't need to be a genius to see a farce . One by one , examine these points and see for yourself if they are actually true in the first place and not just a lie or if they are not what they seem to be .

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Brother please study the science, imagine just disregarding Allah's method of creation and what's said in the Quran? Imagine the insult to Allah. Allah encourages us to study. And many times in the Quran, shows us that mankind, which includes Adam was created from ALAQ. Allah is never short of words:
YOU study . Having different explanations of something that might hold multiple meanings is one thing . But bringing something out of another based on irrational interruption is completely unacceptable . And YOU are the one who needs to imagine the insult to God for saying that such things .

We're waiting .
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: abdullah on September 08, 2013, 03:00:04 PM
Assalamualykum
Brother, I believe that evolution of animals is possible I just haven't found the evidence for evolution to be very convincing.
Evolution is just one interpretation of the scientific data proofs you have presented. For example, evolutionists see the genetic, molecular, embryological, and protein similarities as proof of evolution. While a creationist can easily argue that god would use the same blueprints to make all of his creation.
Also, a note on "vestigial organs" just because we don't know what the purpose of an organ doesn't necessarily mean that it is vestigial. For example scientists use to believe that the appendix was a vestigial organ, but they recently discovered that it's purpose is to store good bacteria.
you cited fossil evidence as one of your proofs but I would argue that the fossil evidence isn't nessecarily in favor of evolution because of the absence of transitional fossils.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 08, 2013, 03:04:37 PM
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Piece ? There are mountains of evidence proving it wrong and showing scandals of hoaxes done in order to prove it be Atheists and non-Atheists . Come to us where I told you and we'll show you that we have "Pieces" of evidence

I am unaware of all the evidence having hoaxes, please show me one. This sounds like unsubstantiated wishful thinking.


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I couldn't care what you think . Evolution in all of its forms which keep changing whenever evidence appears proving it wrong are just wrong .

So yes, Allah has ultimately created mankind from clay. I will show you a series of verses to state my point:

The basic idea of evolution does not keep changing. We DID come from non-human ancestors. That is fact. The exact details of the mechanism behind this may be a theory, but the idea of common ancestry is FACT.

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Quran 32:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.
^So Allah made everything he created better. This is hinting at a process of creation.
Improper explanation . Allah perfected what he created . How do you come out of this with the idea that it means evolution ?! When I say that I perfected this picture I have been drawing does it mean it evolved after I was done with it ?!

If you perfected the picture you are drawing, that means the picture you are drawing had a process of perfection. If Allah perfected human beings, that means the process of creation of the human being involved betterment! This is compatible with the idea of evolution.

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Quran 32:8 THEN He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.
^AFTER creation from clay, our posterity comes from an extract of sperm. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.
Improper as well . The beginning of humans were creating our father Adam of clay . After that , there wasn't direct creation of clay anymore . It was through the marriage of males and females . Again , how do you come out of this with evolution ?!

You would have to disagree with yourself once you see the next verse. Intellectual honesty is key! After making our posterity from semen, Allah THEN proportioned us and put something spiritual in us and gave us consciousness.

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Writing words in capital doesn't help . Here , after the child start forming an angle is sent to blow a soul into him and then Allah gives this child sight and hearing and heart . Yet again , how do you come out of this with evolution ?! 

You completely disregarded WHY I wrote the word 'then' in capital letters. This verse is showing a sequence of events,. Not an instant process as you presume. Notice how Quran 32:9 says 'HIM', who is him? Mankind--more specifically--Adam.  Adam was proportioned and through sexual reproduction, we became proportioned.

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Compare this to the idea that we came from lower forms of life. We were literally created from wet earth (clay), and then after a while sexual reproduction developed. And through the process of sexual reproduction, we were proportioned and given consciousness. The process of sexual reproduction creates even more variation and makes evolution even more successful.
If everyone followed this line of thinking then we should tolerate those who say we were created by aliens from outer space .

I fail to see the connection with the aliens. This line of thinking is an objective analysis of the verses.  Those verses (32:7-9) tell us 3 vital points:

1.) Creation had a process of perfection-----> absolutely supports the idea of evolution
2.) THEN, sexual reproduction formed--------> absolutely supports the idea of evolution
3.) THEN, higher consciousness formed--------> absolutely supports the idea of evolution

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Everything about evolution makes a problem to me and every honest person . First of all , it contradicts Islam . Secondly it's not supported by any kind of proper evidence unless you really believe what you wrote is fit to be called evidence . Thirdly , it is supported by loads of lies and hoaxes and the most famous are the belt-down man and Nebraska-man . Look it up .

Please, show us where evolution contradicts Islam. If there is one verse in the Quran that contradicts evolution, I, as an honest person, will believe the Quran does not support evolution. Show me that one verse that contradicts and you won this debate. 

The next point you made is a factual error. I'm not saying that most the evidence we have supports evolution, I am saying ALL of the evidence we have supports evolution! That should mean something to an honest person.

Perhaps there were hoaxes before, I'm not entirely sure about that conspiracy theory. But, the work I do is not a hoax.

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All of this follows the example of the one who said Jellyfish are not deadly because they're cute . So , a guy finds a skull of a monkey , that means we and apes are cousins ?! I told you , drop why and we'll show you one by one that all what they claim as evidence is nothing more than a load of lies .

Evolution is not based on just skulls of hominids. If it was, I would agree with you. It is based on genetic evidence as well!

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Truth be told , I'm not a scientist and I don't know much about biology . But you don't need to be a genius to see a farce . One by one , examine these points and see for yourself if they are actually true in the first place and not just a lie or if they are not what they seem to be .

I don't claim to be an all-knowing scientist, but I do have extensive understanding of evolution. I don't see a farce at all. I have examined the evidence of evolution, it is absolutely compelling. In some years, i guarantee you that evolution would be like belief in the earth being round, if it is not already like that.

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YOU study . Having different explanations of something that might hold multiple meanings is one thing . But bringing something out of another based on irrational interruption is completely unacceptable . And YOU are the one who needs to imagine the insult to God for saying that such things .We're waiting .

I'm sorry but evolution is largely fact. There may be tweaks done, but the basic idea that we formed through common ancestry is fact!

I'm a microbiologist currently working in marine aquaculture and affairs in Narragansett, Rhode Island. Evolution is probably the root of all biological understanding (genetics as well). It is a reality and you find Quranic verses in support of that reality.

But why do I hear so much excuse making? Isn't the first verse that ALlah has sent to Muhammad (pbuh) literally showing that mankind was created from Alaq (embryo). That does not exclude Adam as Adam is part of mankind, and Allah is never short of words.

(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance

How about the verses that show that we were created in diverse stages?

(Quran 71:14)  God created you in stages

A few verses down it says:

(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.

 We grew FROM the Earth (molecules in Earth are we are made of) a growth. That means we came from the earth as a growth. Not from an instant creation in paradise. We had to GROW from the Earth. Something involving a process

(And for some reason, its translated as a [progressive growth]. I like that translation, if I knew Arabic, I'd tell you why. But I am just going to assume that its there for a linguistic reason. You can correct me on that)

The next verse says:

(Quran 71:18) Then He will return you into it and extract you [another] extraction.

^We will be returned to the earth and we will be extracted in another extraction (like before).


I ask again, why all the excuse making? Why the refusal to deny reality and the Quran's saying? That is very dishonest and an embarrassment to Islam.

I think we all have to agree on 3 things (from just this post I wrote)

1.) Creation was not instant according to the Quran
2.) Humanity was created from the Earth as a growth that is progressive
3.) Adam was an embryo just like all of us

Connect the dots...
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 08, 2013, 03:28:29 PM
Assalamualykum
Brother, I believe that evolution of animals is possible I just haven't found the evidence for evolution to be very convincing.
Evolution is just one interpretation of the scientific data proofs you have presented. For example, evolutionists see the genetic, molecular, embryological, and protein similarities as proof of evolution. While a creationist can easily argue that god would use the same blueprints to make all of his creation.
Also, a note on "vestigial organs" just because we don't know what the purpose of an organ doesn't necessarily mean that it is vestigial. For example scientists use to believe that the appendix was a vestigial organ, but they recently discovered that it's purpose is to store good bacteria.
you cited fossil evidence as one of your proofs but I would argue that the fossil evidence isn't nessecarily in favor of evolution because of the absence of transitional fossils.

Hello brother, you made a very good and valid point about the vestigial organs. I cannot argue against that.

Now there are 2 methods of  knowledge: Evidence and reasoned logic.

We do have some transitional fossils, but we don't have enough. So now we must use reasoned logic. Only a small fraction of things get the chance to be fossilized! So its not at all surprising we don't have all the fossil evidence we need.

The genetic, molecular, embryological, and protein similarities coupled with the fossil record and live observations of micro/macro evolution should be evidence of common descent. The reason is, that we find that similar species have similar genetics and we find mutations existing in those species which leads to different shapes. And when the mutations lead to sexual separation, that is a new species. That species' kids would reproduce and make more of it. We have seen it in microbes, and we are about to see it in larger organisms!

And I do agree slightly with the idea that God would use the same blueprints of his creation! Evolution says he did! DNA is the blueprint used for his creation! The natural processes is the method Allah used to further the creation! The truth of the matter about the blue prints is that we must accommodate it to Evolution as a way for creation to take place.

Evolution is Allah's vector of allowing those blueprints to get more complex forming higher order creation. Why did Allah do this? So humanity can exist in an ecosystem for a long period of time in order to establish worship--what we were created for. Evolution and the natural processes involved created a system in which mankind can survive and worship the creator.

If you notice, the idea of simple things making complex things is evident in the creation of the universe! We see that the big bang has allowed stars to form and stars make higher more complex atoms which allows for the complexity of life. The whole Idea that in the embryo, Allah has made steps in our creation. We see throughout creation that Allah likes using multiple steps! Why wouldn't he do that with the creation of man?

Further this is reflected in the Quran which shows Allah DID that with the creation of man.

Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: abdullah on September 08, 2013, 03:43:46 PM
Assalamualaykum
Brother their have been evolution hoaxes this is not wishful thinking on the part of black muslim.
Both of yall need to chill out their is no need to be so rude to each other we are all Muslims that are disagreeing on minor issues. Emotions and ad hominens have no place in an intellectual debate.
Prophet Musa was ordered by Allah to speak kindly to phirawn, the worst of people. We are all brothers and their is absolutely no need to be rude to each other.
Inshallah I will respond to all of your points at a later date as I am busy at the moment.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: adnaanshaikh195 on September 08, 2013, 05:18:38 PM
I actually can't you seriously at all, the way you twist Qur'an interpretations to suit your crappy beliefs regarding evolution.

ADAM IS NOT A DESCENDANT OF ANYONE.

Surah Al-Imran verses 3:33-34 is NOT saying that Adam is a descendant. Allah is mentioning that Noah, Abraham and Imran are descendants of one another.
Adam was created in Jannah before Allah gave him life. Then when Iblees rebelled, and Adam ate from the tree, they were sent to earth. It was all of Allah's deecree.

There is no stupid evolution process where Adam evolves from another creation.

You are doing something very dangerous, trying to interpret Qur'an ayaah to suit your own needs is a very bad sin.

Again Surah Nuh [17:17] in context is from the DUST of the earth.

When Allah created Adam, He sent down Angels to gather soil from the earth, he didn't evolve Adam. Adam was created in Jannah.

The following destroys your whole stupid beliefs regarding evolution and the Prophet Adam:

"When Allah had fashioned Adam in Paradise, He left him as he willed to leave him. Then Iblees went around him to see what he was. And when he found him hollow, he recognised he has been created with an uncontrolled disposition. "(Muslim)

Now READ it again:

When Allah HAD FASHIONED ADAM IN JANNAH.
HE LEFT HIM AS HE WILLED TO LEAVE HIM.
THEN IBLEES WENT AROUND HIM TO SEE WHAT HE WAS.
Adam wasn't even living here, he wasn't given life yet.

"[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, “Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay. So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration.” (Qur’an 38:71-72)

Allah created Adam from clay.
He was FASHIONED in Jannah.

HE WAS CREATED IN JANNAH.

There is no stupid evolution process where Adam evolves from another, no. Just no.
Adam is NOT a descendant of anything else either.

Stop trying to become a hero and create your own interpretations, this is how sects/divisions come up in themselves, this is a very bad mistake.

I'm done here.

Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: abdullah on September 08, 2013, 05:52:56 PM
Salam
My point about the similarity in genetics is that similarity does not necessarily entail  evolution.
I am not well versed in the study of evolution because in all honesty I find it extremely boring and unlikely. My point is that their are other ways of viewing the scientific data you have mentioned.
Also a note on the examples you pointed out, correct me if I'm wrong but these all seem like instances of micro evolution
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: abdullah on September 08, 2013, 06:05:53 PM
http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/philosophy-theology/has-evolution-been-misunderstood-revelation-science-and-certainty/
Ayy guys chill out he is only sharing his opinion on a theory which he holds to be true their is absolutely no need to react harshly. If we just show him why we don't believe in evolution it will lead to more fruitful and positive discussion. This is what Islam needs in this era, when we have pseudo-Muslims such as irshad menji and Reza aslan representing Islam we need a strong intellectual response to their fallacious beliefs and the only way to do that is with intellectual arguments.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: abdullah on September 08, 2013, 07:22:16 PM
Here is an example of an evolutionary hoax
The irony of this evolution debate is that majority of the people who believe in evolution do so out of the testimony of others, namely our teachers at school or the books we read, because we haven’t done the experiments ourselves. This is no different than a new form of priesthood – the scientific priesthood! But we must be wary, teachers and scientists and priests are human beings, and humans err. For example Marc Hauser, a Harvard professor of biology, was found guilty of misconduct as he invented and falsified data in experiments on monkeys. This was not detected by peer reviewers but by a student whistleblower. Hauser, an atheist, authored the book Moral Minds: The Nature of Right and Wrong in which he claims morality is an inherited instinct and that atheists are just as ethical as churchgoers.[34] The point being made here is that although we must respect scientists and teachers, we should not do so blindly. Rather, we must always understand knowledge and claims of truth from an epistemological perspective, meaning does this knowledge have the right to claim certainty? By understanding the scientific method and its philosophy we can easily conclude that it is a blessing and mercy from God, but it does not – most of the time – produce certain knowledge.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: abdullah on September 08, 2013, 11:25:06 PM
salam
Here is evidence that Darwinists suppress any information that goes against the theory of evolution no matter how strong or weak the evidence is. This is why we shouldnt try to force in evolution in to the quran. For all we know evolution can be completely disproven within 50 years. 100 years ago everybody but thiests believed  in the static state model of the universe which was then completely disproven in 1920.
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/09/how_the_scienti_1076101.html
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Black Muslim on September 09, 2013, 08:48:34 AM
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I am unaware of all the evidence having hoaxes, please show me one. This sounds like unsubstantiated wishful thinking. [/quote
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/science-of-natural-history/the-scientific-process/piltdown-man-hoax/piltdown-hoax-revealed/index.html
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In November 1953 Piltdown Man hit the headlines again. This time revealed as a hoax. The so-called 'missing link' between humans and apes now became a sensation as a sophisticated and infamous scientific fraud.

In the 40 years since the original 1912 announcement of Piltdown Man, increasing numbers of ancient human fossils had been discovered, most notably from Africa, China and Indonesia, but also from Asia and Europe.
None of these discoveries showed the large brain and ape-like jaw of Piltdown Man. Instead they suggested that the jaws and teeth became human-like before the evolution of a large brain.

As the discrepancies became too many to ignore and as new dating technology emerged, investigations on the Piltdown fossils began again.
At the Natural History Museum in the late 1940s, Kenneth Oakley ran a series of fluorine tests that made use of fluorine's tendency to accumulate in calcium-containing organic matter such as bones and teeth. Oakley discovered the fossils were probably less than 50,000 years old, not nearly old enough to be from a species with such ape-like features.
Following this, the biological anthropologist Joseph Weiner and human anatomist Wilfrid Le Gros Clark, both from Oxford University, worked with Oakley to test the Piltdown fossils even more stringently.

Their results proved that the skull and jaw fragments actually came from 2 different species, a human and an ape, probably an orangutan. Scratches on the surfaces of the teeth, visible under the microscope, revealed that the teeth had been filed down to make them look human. They also discovered that most of the finds from the Piltdown site had been artificially stained to match the local gravels.
The conclusion: Piltdown Man was an audacious fake and a sophisticated scientific fraud.

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If you perfected the picture you are drawing, that means the picture you are drawing had a process of perfection. If Allah perfected human beings, that means the process of creation of the human being involved betterment! This is compatible with the idea of evolution.
No , it has nothing to do with evolution . Indeed , the creation of our father Adam went through stages . But to say these stages are the so called "Theory" of evolution is a crime in the right of respected human beings ! There was a stage sand , a stage of mud , and a stage of clay . The meaning of perfecting something you make doesn't have to mean that it had a process according to language (That's in Arabic , I don't know about English) and if we assume that it is , then they are in no way related to evolution .

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You would have to disagree with yourself once you see the next verse. Intellectual honesty is key! After making our posterity from semen, Allah THEN proportioned us and put something spiritual in us and gave us consciousness.
I did read what's after it and I know what you're aiming at . Again , this in no way mean evolution . Indeed , we are forming through a process while in the wombs of our mothers . After that , Allah sends an angel to blow a spirit within us . What does that have to do with the theory of apes ? And please , you're not one to talk about intellectual honesty .

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You completely disregarded WHY I wrote the word 'then' in capital letters. This verse is showing a sequence of events,. Not an instant process as you presume. Notice how Quran 32:9 says 'HIM', who is him? Mankind--more specifically--Adam.  Adam was proportioned and through sexual reproduction, we became proportioned.
Correct me if wrong . The first one says that Allah perfected what he created which means that whichever he created was done in a perfect way . No evolution . The same one says that the beginning of creating mankind was of mud . Here , we might have two explanations :
1 - The meant "Human" is our father Adam . In that case , his creation was of mud . No evolution . After that , the lineage after Adam - peace upon him - was through sexual intercourse of husband and wife . No evolution . Then , this sperm in the womb of the mother is formed by God's will and then a spirit is blown in it . Again , no evolution .
2 - The meant "Human" is mankind in general . In this case , the first stage means our father Adam - peace upon him - himself whom was created of mud . And then , the lineage of mankind was through menial water (Sperm) . Again , this water was formed and then given a soul by Allah . Yet again , no evolution .

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Please, show us where evolution contradicts Islam. If there is one verse in the Quran that contradicts evolution, I, as an honest person, will believe the Quran does not support evolution. Show me that one verse that contradicts and you won this debate. 
Honestly , I don't know if there is a crystal clear verse in Quran which no one can interrupt in any other way . There are sayings of the prophet peace upon him doing that . However , seeing that you deny the sayings of the prophet because you accuse the science of Hadith , there is nothing I can bring you .

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Evolution is not based on just skulls of hominids. If it was, I would agree with you. It is based on genetic evidence as well!
No difference . So , apes have DNA somewhat similar to humans , that makes us their cousins ? If so , we should be the cousins of bananas as well . I'll put it in another way , there is a building in Egypt and another similar one in Morocco , do they share an ancestor ? I could accept this from my little cousin who was 4 years old and thought that the house he saw was the father of his parents' house , but from grown ups ?

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I don't claim to be an all-knowing scientist, but I do have extensive understanding of evolution. I don't see a farce at all. I have examined the evidence of evolution, it is absolutely compelling. In some years, i guarantee you that evolution would be like belief in the earth being round, if it is not already like that.
Some people say the same thing about Islam you know "It's a fact that Islam promotes hate the same as the fact that Earth is round" . So what's the point ? Evidence is what matters . And when we examine evidence , then may we judge .

And now , let's see yet more verses you interrupt in some strange ways .

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But why do I hear so much excuse making? Isn't the first verse that ALlah has sent to Muhammad (pbuh) literally showing that mankind was created from Alaq (embryo). That does not exclude Adam as Adam is part of mankind, and Allah is never short of words.
(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance
To understand this , you need two things :
1 - Understanding of language
2 - Logical understanding
As for language , if you knew , saying something in general doesn't mean there are no exceptions . Father Adam is this exception . And when we talk about logic , a man told you to go le-right and then told you to go right and even pointed to your and his right , can you still say that maybe he wants you to go left ? We have sayings of the prophet peace upon him allowing no room for misunderstanding . And if you don't believe them then it's your business .

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How about the verses that show that we were created in diverse stages?
(Quran 71:14)  God created you in stages
Does embryology ring any bell ?

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(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.
 We grew FROM the Earth (molecules in Earth are we are made of) a growth. That means we came from the earth as a growth. Not from an instant creation in paradise. We had to GROW from the Earth. Something involving a process

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(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.
 We grew FROM the Earth (molecules in Earth are we are made of) a growth. That means we came from the earth as a growth. Not from an instant creation in paradise. We had to GROW from the Earth. Something involving a process
Ok , how on Earth does this have to do anything with evolution ? In the explanations we see multiple interruption among them are the meaning that father Adam was made to grow of this Earth . Another is that we grow with what we feed on of plants . Aside from any explanation : How do you come out of this with evolution ?!

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I ask again, why all the excuse making? Why the refusal to deny reality and the Quran's saying? That is very dishonest and an embarrassment to Islam.
The true embarrassment is when someone doesn't trust his religion and so he decides to change whatever needed of it so that it matches what others desire as you demonstrated in denying Hadith .

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I think we all have to agree on 3 things (from just this post I wrote)
1.) Creation was not instant according to the Quran
2.) Humanity was created from the Earth as a growth that is progressive
3.) Adam was an embryo just like all of us
None .

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Both of yall need to chill out their is no need to be so rude to each other we are all Muslims that are disagreeing on minor issues.
Just to clear it out , there is a difference between arguing about some practical things - as was the case with some scholars - and arguing about something that leaves no please of misunderstanding . For example , among the scholars , some have said that covering the face for women is obligation , some said it is indeed better but it isn't obligation . No problem in that and everyone respects the other's opinion . But what do you say when someone says flat out that the veil -Any veil - is an invention of Saudia Arabia ?! You see what I mean ? Differences are accepted , but there are differences which can  never be tolerated as is the case with those who claim Ali - Allah be please of him - is a God . But you're right , I was wrong . There is no need to be rude .
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Egyptian on September 09, 2013, 11:29:22 AM


Brothers .....  I don't think the thread is about the validity of the well established scientific theory of evolution ,but whether the quran supports the concept of Adam preceded by other creation that he was evolved from ......

so plz let's focus on the issue....  also let's make the discussion civil without attacking each others persons.... 

the issue doesn't merit a heated debate....  neither merit a debate ,really..

the only thing that made me interested to share ,is Bro Mclinkin's obvious interest in the topic which he demostrated by several times he posted what is related to the issue....

though I disagree with his approach to the matter ,still it is not a matter would get him outside the fold of islam ......

till next posts

May Allah bless you....
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: FARHAN_UDDIN on September 09, 2013, 12:42:17 PM
Assalamualykum.

 Brother, Allah says:

  ]"It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur’an). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkâm (commandments), Al-Farâ'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings exceptAllah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord. And none receive admonition except men of understanding)" [Suraat Al-E-Imran/3:7]



 So, none  except Allah knows the real meaning of the Verses of the Quran. Its obvious that everyone's interpretation will vary. But whatever interpretation it is, it must be logical and proved. And most importantly, the interpretation must not contradict with other verses of the Quran.


Take Care.

 
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 09, 2013, 01:47:18 PM
I actually can't you seriously at all, the way you twist Qur'an interpretations to suit your crappy beliefs regarding evolution.

ADAM IS NOT A DESCENDANT OF ANYONE.

Surah Al-Imran verses 3:33-34 is NOT saying that Adam is a descendant. Allah is mentioning that Noah, Abraham and Imran are descendants of one another.
Adam was created in Jannah before Allah gave him life. Then when Iblees rebelled, and Adam ate from the tree, they were sent to earth. It was all of Allah's deecree.

There is no stupid evolution process where Adam evolves from another creation.

You are doing something very dangerous, trying to interpret Qur'an ayaah to suit your own needs is a very bad sin.

Again Surah Nuh [17:17] in context is from the DUST of the earth.

When Allah created Adam, He sent down Angels to gather soil from the earth, he didn't evolve Adam. Adam was created in Jannah.

The following destroys your whole stupid beliefs regarding evolution and the Prophet Adam:

"When Allah had fashioned Adam in Paradise, He left him as he willed to leave him. Then Iblees went around him to see what he was. And when he found him hollow, he recognised he has been created with an uncontrolled disposition. "(Muslim)

Now READ it again:

When Allah HAD FASHIONED ADAM IN JANNAH.
HE LEFT HIM AS HE WILLED TO LEAVE HIM.
THEN IBLEES WENT AROUND HIM TO SEE WHAT HE WAS.
Adam wasn't even living here, he wasn't given life yet.

"[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, “Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay. So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration.” (Qur’an 38:71-72)

Allah created Adam from clay.
He was FASHIONED in Jannah.

HE WAS CREATED IN JANNAH.

There is no stupid evolution process where Adam evolves from another, no. Just no.
Adam is NOT a descendant of anything else either.

Stop trying to become a hero and create your own interpretations, this is how sects/divisions come up in themselves, this is a very bad mistake.

I'm done here.

Brother, I'm not the one twisting verses here! Quran 3:33-34 is very clear in its meaning, but you refuse to accept what it is saying!

Quran 3:33-34: "Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds. DESCENDANTS, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing"

^Read it again please, it clearly calls Adam, Noah, Family of Abraham, Imran descendants from others! Allah is never short of words! Allah chose Adam, over who? And then Allah says Adam was a descendant. If Adam was a descendant and he is the first one to be like us (human) then it must logically follow that who he came from is not like-us. So am I twisting any verse or am I just reading the verse and stating what it clearly says? So am I interpreting the Quran to suit my desires, or are you?

Now, personally I don't like using hadiths to support a claim based on the history they have of corruption. But I must ask, doesn't that hadith contradict the Quran when it says we were created from the Earth not from paradise? Perhaps the hadith was talking about the soul rather than the physical body if it was true? I'm not entirely sure, but when a hadith goes against the Quranic teaching, I am sorry-I side with the Quran.

"[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, “Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay. So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration.” (Qur’an 38:71-72)

I absolutely see no problem with that verse and its support for evolution!





Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 09, 2013, 02:50:45 PM
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No , it has nothing to do with evolution . Indeed , the creation of our father Adam went through stages . But to say these stages are the so called "Theory" of evolution is a crime in the right of respected human beings ! There was a stage sand , a stage of mud , and a stage of clay . The meaning of perfecting something you make doesn't have to mean that it had a process according to language (That's in Arabic , I don't know about English) and if we assume that it is , then they are in no way related to evolution

Okay, I am glad you recognize that Adam was created in stages and it wasn't an instant process in paradise. That was the point I was trying to make. That Adam was not an instant creation. It involved a process of perfection and going through stages. We see this through ALL of creation. Everything has a process, even our own embryos! To deny a process in the creation of Adam is rather dishonest. Where did you get the stage of sand/mud/clay from?

Now 'perfection' is not a semantics issue. It is a logical issue. Allah perfected everything he created. That means it must logically follow that creation had a process of perfection! That was my point.

^merge the fact that Adam was created in stages, he was perfected to take on the form he took. See the compatibility with the idea that mankind was created through a gradual process? I am not giving meaning to verses, I am just showing them. They speak for themselves!


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I did read what's after it and I know what you're aiming at . Again , this in no way mean evolution . Indeed , we are forming through a process while in the wombs of our mothers . After that , Allah sends an angel to blow a spirit within us . What does that have to do with the theory of apes ? And please , you're not one to talk about intellectual honesty

Why should that verse be interpreted this way? Yes Allah sent an angel to blow a spirit into Adam as well then! Lets pull up the verses again. Please, let me remind you what the word "then'' means. It signifies a sequence of events

Quran 32:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

^So Allah made everything he created better. And creation from clay is actually recognized in abiogenesis. We actually think clay brought forth the necessary conditions for the first cell to form.

Quran 32:8 THEN He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

^After BEGINNING creation from clay, our posterity comes from an extract of semen. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.

Quran 32:9 THEN He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

^here is the most important part. AFTER Allah made our posterity from a liquid disdained, he proportioned him (ADAM) and given mankind (us) vision/hearing/consciousness. Allah BEGINS the process of creation, lets sexual reproduction happen, proportions the first human to finally complete the process of formation! Notice the word "begin".

Can this verse be any more clear? But, instead you choose to twist it so that it shows that Adam/mankind was not proportioned after the creation sexual reproduction? Instead you say that the breathing of the soul is referring to Adam's children even though the verse says 'HIM' (meaning Adam) rather than 'you'?

Do you know why verse 32:9 is referring to Adam? Because it mirrors this verse (15:28-29) which is clearly referring to Adam, so 'HIM' is referring to Adam being proportioned and THEN consequently 'you' get hearing and consciousness.

Now if you still say that Quran 32:9 is not referring to Adam, but only Adam's kids (you and I) then ask yourself:

1.) Was Adam not proportioned and given hearing? IF you say no, then that contradicts Quran 15:28-29 and reality. If you say yes, then that verse supports the fact that we were created from Earth, developed sexual reproduction and THEN we collectively took our human form (that includes Adam)--just as science tell us! So Adam was proportioned AFTER Allah created sexual reproduction.

2.) If the Quran was talking about Adam's progeny, why didn't the Quran say "THEM" or "you" instead of 'him'? "and then we proportioned THEM/you (the progeny of Adam)", The Quran said no such thing. So you must accept that it is referring to the first one to take on the final human shape.

3.) Does it make sense considering the context of beginning the creation of a human from a simple matter, then getting more complex and animal (sexual reproduction) and then taking on full human form? 


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Correct me if wrong . The first one says that Allah perfected what he created which means that whichever he created was done in a perfect way . No evolution . The same one says that the beginning of creating mankind was of mud . Here , we might have two explanations :
1 - The meant "Human" is our father Adam . In that case , his creation was of mud . No evolution . After that , the lineage after Adam - peace upon him - was through sexual intercourse of husband and wife . No evolution . Then , this sperm in the womb of the mother is formed by God's will and then a spirit is blown in it . Again , no evolution .
2 - The meant "Human" is mankind in general . In this case , the first stage means our father Adam - peace upon him - himself whom was created of mud . And then , the lineage of mankind was through menial water (Sperm) . Again , this water was formed and then given a soul by Allah . Yet again , no evolution.

And evolution is not a perfect method of creation. Secondly, the verse says "perfected", أَحْسَنَ, which means to make Good. That means Allah's creation was made to be good from its original through a process.

Thirdly, I could add a third thing to your list that you refuse to consider:

3- The verse meant that Adam was created through a process of perfection that initially involved clay. (the verse says BEGAN the creation of Adam from clay-signifying a process). So science (something you refuse to accept as valid) tells us that the first cell was formed through wet earth. It required water and earth (organic and inorganic molecules that are in Earth), that cell went through a process of perfection through natural selection, and Adam ultimately formed from it.

^Isn't #3 the one that supports the Quran and supports science? That means a rational person would accept #3, rather than your #1 and #2. But I agree, those verses can be interpreted in the way you said, but considering other verses in the Quran and science, it absolutely should not!

Imagine I say: "The computer has a hard-drive".

One valid interpretation is that the computer has a strong/hard drive to do work.

Another valid interpretation is that the computer has a physical substance called a hard-drive.

^They are both valid translations. But one of them is the more probable one. Apply this to what we talked about above ^


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Honestly , I don't know if there is a crystal clear verse in Quran which no one can interrupt in any other way . There are sayings of the prophet peace upon him doing that . However , seeing that you deny the sayings of the prophet because you accuse the science of Hadith , there is nothing I can bring you

The reality is, brother, there are none that contradict the Quran. The creation of clay and perfection of clay is actually supportive of our modern scientific discoveries.

By the way, i am not completely a Hadith rejector. I believe there could be some truth in them, but they are very likely to be corrupted considering my studies of them. Believe it or not, I still follow the sunnah as I believe it is a good thing to do and it does not contradict the Quran in any way. When I see hadiths that vary from sahih to sahih book and when I see many hadiths contradictiong the Quran, it lets me be very skeptical of them. It seems like people back then tend to exaggerate or add things to stories from their own understanding even though they didn't mean to corrupt the hadiths.


If you ever played a game back in grade school, its like the whisper game, the teacher promised everyone a lolipop if we could whisper what she says to the next person in a chain and see if the last whisper is the same as the original teacher's whisper. Although we all wanted that lolipop, we tried to listen carefully and did our best. In the end, the last whisper is so different from the original teacher's whisper even though we all had good intentions. In the last whisper, there is some truth in it, but it concealed much detail, exaggerated soem and students added their own itnerpreations to the whisper. Would it be far fetched to say the same things happened in hadiths? I don't think so.

People back then believed the Earth was flat, there are 7 glass domes above us, we could fall off the edge of the Earth etc. Those are not Quranic concepts, but the Quran supports their belief WITHOUT contradicting our beliefs. This is an extremely important point!

Example: Quran 21:33 "And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all in an orbit are swimming."

This verse supports their beliefs that the sun and the moon orbits the Earth! This verse also supports our beliefs that the sun and the moon has an orbit!

Imagine this verse said "all are in an orbit, swimming around the Earth". This verse would only support their beliefs, but not our beliefs! This is a theme that re-occurrs in the Quran. Apply this to evolution, where it supports their old-age beliefs of creation, and OUR beleifs of creation. The Quran is meant for all times and places. Unfortunately, that is why we have hadiths of people adding their own old-age interpretations to the Hadith whisper to the next person.

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No difference . So , apes have DNA somewhat similar to humans , that makes us their cousins ? If so , we should be the cousins of bananas as well . I'll put it in another way , there is a building in Egypt and another similar one in Morocco , do they share an ancestor ? I could accept this from my little cousin who was 4 years old and thought that the house he saw was the father of his parents' house , but from grown ups?

Brother, if you put all the evidence together, you see evolution. You just need a further study of it. I don't want this to turn into a scientific debate.

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To understand this , you need two things :
1 - Understanding of language
2 - Logical understanding
As for language , if you knew , saying something in general doesn't mean there are no exceptions . Father Adam is this exception . And when we talk about logic , a man told you to go le-right and then told you to go right and even pointed to your and his right , can you still say that maybe he wants you to go left ? We have sayings of the prophet peace upon him allowing no room for misunderstanding . And if you don't believe them then it's your business .

Brother this is excuse making on your part and twisting verses to suit your desires. The verse is so clear. Combine other verses with this one and you will see. But you don't even have to. The verse by itself says that MANKIND was created from Alaq. No further excuse making necessary.

Why do I get accused of interpreting verses to suit my desires? Didn't you just do that right there?

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Does embryology ring any bell ?

Embryology could very well be a valid translation of Quran 71:14, but when you put other verses together from the same chapter, it seems very improbable that's what the verse meant.

A few verses down in 71:17 it says "And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth", and then it says "Then He will return you into it and extract you [another] extraction"

So it talks about creation in stages (71:14) and later it alludes to what he means by stages, growth from the earth a progressive growth. Remember this verse is speaking to man collectively.


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Ok , how on Earth does this have to do anything with evolution ? In the explanations we see multiple interruption among them are the meaning that father Adam was made to grow of this Earth . Another is that we grow with what we feed on of plants . Aside from any explanation : How do you come out of this with evolution ?!

Again where did you get plants from? If anything it is comparing our growth to the growth of plants. Out of the Earth we grew, and back to the Earth we will return.

Did we grow out of the Earth according to your theory on instant creation of clay in paradise? No.
Did we grow out of the Earth according to the basic idea of evolution? Yes.

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The true embarrassment is when someone doesn't trust his religion and so he decides to change whatever needed of it so that it matches what others desire as you demonstrated in denying Hadith

I trust my religion, I'm not changing the meaning of verses, you are :). I am presenting them, and you are denying what they clearly say in context.

I don't deny all hadith and I follow the sunnah. But from my understanding of hadiths, I am VERY skeptical.


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Just to clear it out , there is a difference between arguing about some practical things - as was the case with some scholars - and arguing about something that leaves no please of misunderstanding . For example , among the scholars , some have said that covering the face for women is obligation , some said it is indeed better but it isn't obligation . No problem in that and everyone respects the other's opinion . But what do you say when someone says flat out that the veil -Any veil - is an invention of Saudia Arabia ?! You see what I mean ? Differences are accepted , but there are differences which can  never be tolerated as is the case with those who claim Ali - Allah be please of him - is a God . But you're right , I was wrong . There is no need to be rude .

Brother, I sensed no rudeness on your part, no need to apologize. If I have appeared rude, I apologize.

I don't believe the translation of the Quran is something that leaves no place of misunderstanding. When Quranic verses allude to the idea of evolution, a scientifically verified fact--then a logical and rational person must accept it without altering the meaning of the Quranic verses (like saying 3:33-34 didn't say Adam was a descendant or that 96:2 excludes Adam). Those are very dangerous manipulations of the Quran when the Quran is explicitly stating truth.

On verse 32:7-9, there was also a manipulation to its meaning on your part! Please refer to what I said earlier, verse 9 says 'him' and not 'you'. That means Adam (mankind) was fashioned/completed AFTER the creation of sexual reproduction, and not 'you' as individual people.

I hope you understand why I truly believe the Quran supports evolution. It is literally what the verses are saying!

An important concept to understand is that the Quran was meant for all times, so it must support:

1.) 7th century fantasy
2.) Our beliefs

^It must support those WITHOUT contradicting each other. So the way the Quran is worded in a very ingenious manner in order to allow Quranic support for these two beliefs.

I ask you all to picture it: Allah creates the universe and he fine tuned it so it supports life. Allah has scattered many life forms throughout the universe,  Earth formed through this ingenious process Allah created and living things uniformly formed throughout Earth-like places in the universe from basic things--Water and Clay (wet rock sediments), and allowed such things to form the first cell and then ultimately intelligent life so that Allah may try it. Do you not see how INGENIOUS this is?
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 09, 2013, 03:03:59 PM
Assalamualykum.

 Brother, Allah says:

  ]"It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur’an). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkâm (commandments), Al-Farâ'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings exceptAllah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord. And none receive admonition except men of understanding)" [Suraat Al-E-Imran/3:7]



 So, none  except Allah knows the real meaning of the Verses of the Quran. Its obvious that everyone's interpretation will vary. But whatever interpretation it is, it must be logical and proved. And most importantly, the interpretation must not contradict with other verses of the Quran.


Take Care.

This is a really good verse and it proves that old translations of verses (those carried out by 7th century hadiths) do not have to be the right translations or interpretations and that Quranic verses have huge and mountainous meaning in them, that only Allah knows the true translation.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Sama on September 09, 2013, 04:46:42 PM


Brothers .....  I don't think the thread is about the validity of the well established scientific theory of evolution ,but whether the quran supports the concept of Adam preceded by other creation that he was evolved from ......
May Allah bless you....
salam alaikum

Beware of Fallacy of equivocation;
http://quranscientificerror.blogspot.com/2013/08/re-quran-scientific-errors-on-evolution.html
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Egyptian on September 10, 2013, 04:45:36 AM

Beware of Fallacy of equivocation;
http://quranscientificerror.blogspot.com/2013/08/re-quran-scientific-errors-on-evolution.html

That shouldn't be directed at me..... I don't believe that the Quran teaches Adam as descended from other creation.... neither  I will deny the strong clues for evolution .... Is that a contradiction? not at all and I posted that once in another thread... so no need for repititon ....


none  except Allah knows the real meaning of the Verses of the Quran.

I don't think the verses brought by the supporters of "Adam's parents theory in the Quran" should be included under "mutashabihat" their meaning is very clear ,just the supporters read so much in between the lines...


next post inshallah another visit to the verses ...


Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: FARHAN_UDDIN on September 10, 2013, 08:16:43 AM
Assalamualykum.

 Brother mclinkin, go through the entire thread again and analyze everyone's opinion including your own ones. Pray two Ra'kat Nafl Salah, close your eyes and then again analyze the entire fact. May be by the grace of Allah you will be able to get an approximate answer.Inshallah.

  As this is still a controversial issue, it's not possible to say whose opinion or view is 100% correct and whose not.  Just for example, Allah mentions ''Seven heavens" several time in the Quran. And still we're not sure what it's really implying to. Some say by this Allah meant the Seven layers of the atmosphere while some says its talking about seven dimensions.


 In the same way I think the concept of evolution is a controversial issue. Well I'm not sure. I don't have sufficient knowledge regarding this. your interpretation might be right, might also be wrong or might partially be right. So brother don't remain firmly stuck to the theory of evolution as its still not 100% proved. I guess.

 May Allah guide you the right path. Ameen


Take Care.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Black Muslim on September 10, 2013, 10:24:18 AM
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the issue doesn't merit a heated debate....  neither merit a debate ,really..
I disagree . Tolerating different opinions about things which can be interrupted differently is a thing . But opposing clear signs of Quran or sayings of the prophet is not something to be tolerated . That is the reason why all those ignorant individuals show on TV and say things like Jews and Christians will enter paradise along with Muslims !

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though I disagree with his approach to the matter ,still it is not a matter would get him outside the fold of islam ......
Nobody said so .

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Quran 3:33-34: "Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds. DESCENDANTS, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing"
^Read it again please, it clearly calls Adam, Noah, Family of Abraham, Imran descendants from others! Allah is never short of words! Allah chose Adam, over who? And then Allah says Adam was a descendant. If Adam was a descendant and he is the first one to be like us (human) then it must logically follow that who he came from is not like-us. So am I twisting any verse or am I just reading the verse and stating what it clearly says? So am I interpreting the Quran to suit my desires, or are you?
My God ! How do you come up with these ideas ?!
Allah  chose Adam and Noah and the family of Ibrahim - peace upon them all - from the rest of mankind . Meaning they are above others for they were chosen to be prophets and deliver the message of Allah to people . And in the second sign Allah says they are descendants FROM EACH OTHER . The order is Adam , Noah , and Ibrahim peace upon them all .

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Now, personally I don't like using hadiths to support a claim based on the history they have of corruption.
I was right indeed . I'm dealing with someone abandoning half of Islam . And you are absolutely not someone to say that Hadith is corrupted .

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but when a hadith goes against the Quranic teaching, I am sorry-I side with the Quran.
Contradiction only exists in your mind . Before jumping the gun , think "What's the explanation of this ? Maybe I misunderstood" .

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Okay, I am glad you recognize that Adam was created in stages and it wasn't an instant process in paradise. That was the point I was trying to make.
I really despise people putting words in my mouth . Father Adam WAS created to live in paradise and then sin and repent . Wither it's the real paradise or a paradise on Earth doesn't matter here . The story is in the Quran which you claim to follow .

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We see this through ALL of creation.
If you mean creatures forming in the wombs - or eggs - of their mothers then yes . As for the myth that a dinosaur became a bird because it was trying to catch flies , I told you already .

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Where did you get the stage of sand/mud/clay from?
From the sayings of the prophet peace upon him AND Quran which you claim to follow alone .

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Now 'perfection' is not a semantics issue.
I don't care if you have problems understanding it in language or logic . I already explained .

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Quran 32:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.
^So Allah made everything he created better. And creation from clay is actually recognized in abiogenesis. We actually think clay brought forth the necessary conditions for the first cell to form.
God perfected what he created WHEN he created it . But you want to force the idea that it MUST mean evolving from something to another .

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Quran 32:8 THEN He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.
^After BEGINNING creation from clay, our posterity comes from an extract of semen. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.
I'll just repeat :
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Correct me if wrong . The first one says that Allah perfected what he created which means that whichever he created was done in a perfect way . No evolution . The same one says that the beginning of creating mankind was of mud . Here , we might have two explanations :
1 - The meant "Human" is our father Adam . In that case , his creation was of mud . No evolution . After that , the lineage after Adam - peace upon him - was through sexual intercourse of husband and wife . No evolution . Then , this sperm in the womb of the mother is formed by God's will and then a spirit is blown in it . Again , no evolution .
2 - The meant "Human" is mankind in general . In this case , the first stage means our father Adam - peace upon him - himself whom was created of mud . And then , the lineage of mankind was through menial water (Sperm) . Again , this water was formed and then given a soul by Allah . Yet again , no evolution .

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Can this verse be any more clear? But, instead you choose to twist it so that it shows that Adam/mankind was not proportioned after the creation sexual reproduction? Instead you say that the breathing of the soul is referring to Adam's children even though the verse says 'HIM' (meaning Adam) rather than 'you'?
No one is twisting the meanings other than you . And no one is ignoring what the other says except you ! If you're so weak at language and logic then that's your problem and not ours . If we really go on with you and say that the verses may have different meanings then the sayings of the prophets are the bottom line because they explain in detail the creation of father Adam . Again , if you accuse Hadith of corruption while you know 0 information about it , that's your problem . Another funny thing is : People talk to me about not forcing my opinion on others - And this is nothing to have an opinion about - while you're trying to force yours on us . You don't even say "This might be an explanation" . No , you're saying "This is the ONLY explanation" .

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Do you know why verse 32:9 is referring to Adam? Because it mirrors this verse (15:28-29) which is clearly referring to Adam, so 'HIM' is referring to Adam being proportioned and THEN consequently 'you' get hearing and consciousness.
Again , your ignorance is your own problem . And God himself answers you here :
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it is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them].

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2.) If the Quran was talking about Adam's progeny, why didn't the Quran say "THEM" or "you" instead of 'him'? "and then we proportioned THEM/you (the progeny of Adam)", The Quran said no such thing. So you must accept that it is referring to the first one to take on the final human shape.
YET again , your ignorance of language is your own problem . The verse says "Human" and that's called a noun of a type . Meaning that "Human" here means everything named human . And saying "Him" doesn't contradicts a thing except for those who see contradictions in any and everything just for the sake of showing off .

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Secondly, the verse says "perfected", أَحْسَنَ, which means to make Good. That means Allah's creation was made to be good from its original through a process.
Already explained .

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3- The verse meant that Adam was created through a process of perfection that initially involved clay. (the verse says BEGAN the creation of Adam from clay-signifying a process).
Alright , I'll explain again for reminding benefits the believers . The verse says Allah perfected what he created . You want to force the meaning that it MUST mean evolving things after creating them . But ones who know a few things about Arabic OR English know that it isn't necessary . Even when I was a kid of 8 years old and used to read this sign , I used to think "It means that God created the creatures perfectly" and no idea of evolution ever hit someone I know . THEN - and you think writing in capital makes a difference - Allah says that he started creating human out of mud . Here , there are two possible meanings for the word "Human" . The first is that it means Adam - peace upon him - and in that case evolution has no room . God started forming father Adam out of mud , and the story is mentioned in Hadith which you despise so much because you don't know the first thing about it . The other meaning is that "Human" is a "Type noun" which means all mankind . In this case , the beginning of creating man means the first one being Adam peace upon him . Now , when we move to the next sign it says that Allah - after starting forming human out of mud - made his lineage نسل made of water that is sperm . Meaning that God made human reproduce through sexual intercourse . Let's take both meanings again . If the human here is meant to be father Adam then it means that God made his lineage made of sperm which is true with father Adam and mother Eve both AND their children after them . If I take the other meaning , it's also correct because the lineage of mankind - after the first stage of the first man made of mud - is made of sperm . Let's move to the next . It says that Allah blew of his created soul into this human and gave him sight and hearing and hearts . Let's take both meanings again . If we take the meaning that it's the entire human race , it means the formation of the child in the womb as I said . If it means father Adam then it means the same . Done . No evolution .

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So science (something you refuse to accept as valid) tells us that the first cell was formed through wet earth.
Trying to make me look bad through saying I don't accept science does nothing . What I don't accept is bigoted lies supported by more lies . To put it simply , you'll clutch to any straw left as long as it means evolution is true and I can't see why .

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But I agree, those verses can be interpreted in the way you said, but considering other verses in the Quran and science, it absolutely should not!
If I hear more abusing of the word "Science" I'll lose it . I keep telling you that science keeps stepping on the remains of this myth day after another but it seems I'm talking to myself .

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Imagine I say: "The computer has a hard-drive".
One valid interpretation is that the computer has a strong/hard drive to do work.
Another valid interpretation is that the computer has a physical substance called a hard-drive.
^They are both valid translations. But one of them is the more probable one. Apply this to what we talked about above ^
Not related . I said it before , we have the sayings of the prophet peace upon him and they are more than enough for every Muslim who respects Islam .

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By the way, i am not completely a Hadith rejector. I believe there could be some truth in them, but they are very likely to be corrupted considering my studies of them.
I SWEAR to God that you're completely ignorant of any and everything in this science . Our last conversation showed it . And you need to understand that seeing something on the internet doesn't make you a scholar . Just because you read an article or two doesn't mean you know about it . And going further on will show yet more ignorance which would make one facepalm .

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If you ever played a game back in grade school, its like the whisper game, the teacher promised everyone a lolipop if we could whisper what she says to the next person in a chain and see if the last whisper is the same as the original teacher's whisper. Although we all wanted that lolipop, we tried to listen carefully and did our best. In the end, the last whisper is so different from the original teacher's whisper even though we all had good intentions. In the last whisper, there is some truth in it, but it concealed much detail, exaggerated soem and students added their own itnerpreations to the whisper. Would it be far fetched to say the same things happened in hadiths? I don't think so.
I would have slapped you for this insolence if you were in front of me . I tell you about a science which scholars spend years learning and gathering and you think making a farce of this joke deems it invalid ?!


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Brother, if you put all the evidence together, you see evolution. You just need a further study of it. I don't want this to turn into a scientific debate.
Why not ? You're so sure of it that you call denying it an embarrassment to Islam . The truth is , you were forced to study this in school and so you don't dare question it as if it was a gospel . I told you to drop by here :
www.eltwhed.com/vb/forum.php
so that I show you and you still made no comment . Truthful is the one who said that Darwinism is a new religion with a doctrine .

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Brother this is excuse making on your part and twisting verses to suit your desires. The verse is so clear. Combine other verses with this one and you will see. But you don't even have to. The verse by itself says that MANKIND was created from Alaq. No further excuse making necessary.
Uh-huh . And I'M the one being rude and offensive ? And twisting the meanings to suit my desire ? What desire ? The desire that we were created already perfectly and there was no need for a goddamned myth as evolution ?

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Why do I get accused of interpreting verses to suit my desires? Didn't you just do that right there?

Because you show serious lack of knowledge about Arabic AND English AND logic ! You have something with multiple meanings , and another one saying that the true meaning is only one . Logically , you'd go with that one meaning because there is no room for doubt anymore . But you want to force the idea that the other WRONG meaning is the right one .
Between you and me , I KNOW your type . We see ones like that every now and then . They read a few articles on internet and thought they can judge the ones who spent their whole lives learning or even say the companions of the prophet are hypocrites . Abandon the idea that you're the genius who discovered what others couldn't all these centuries .

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Again where did you get plants from?
Because it's mentioned in this sign o headache bringer !! For the thousand time , if you know nothing about language then it's your problem . No book of explanation says a thing about this doctrine called "Evolution" .  And I as a simple commoner can give a more rational explanation which is that we were made to grow out of the soil of Earth as said before . The problem is with the ones who make this myth a religion to follow . And if you look at the meaning of "إنبات" here :
http://www.almaany.com/quran/26/7/6/
it says that it is making something grow out of Earth or by making something out of this Earth . And even in the worst case scenario , if we take it as literally meaning that we grew out of ground then it is a metaphor because we have other crystal clear evidence that it isn't .

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I trust my religion, I'm not changing the meaning of verses, you are :). I am presenting them, and you are denying what they clearly say in context.
After all this displaying of ignorance of Quran , Hadith , language , and logic , you're not one to accuse others of changing the meanings of something .

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But from my understanding of hadiths, I am VERY skeptical.
Be skeptical as much as you like when you're buying tomatoes . We're here talking about a whole science . Someone with absolutely no knowledge of it is the last to criticize it . You want me to see all this evidence you talk about . You want me to "Learn" . And now you think a rotten article on internet makes you able to take or let whatever you want of Islam ?

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An important concept to understand is that the Quran was meant for all times, so it must support:
1.) 7th century fantasy
2.) Our beliefs
Fantasy my foot ! An insult to me is something I can tolerate , but insulting the companions and entire nations is unforgivable !

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This is a really good verse and it proves that old translations of verses (those carried out by 7th century hadiths) do not have to be the right translations or interpretations and that Quranic verses have huge and mountainous meaning in them, that only Allah knows the true translation.

The verse is talking about those whose hearts are astray . And if we compare between those who lived right after the prophet and some nobody who sticks his nose in whatever he thinks he can , well , you'd be the one astray .

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That shouldn't be directed at me..... I don't believe that the Quran teaches Adam as descended from other creation.... neither  I will deny the strong clues for evolution
An advice , Egyptian : Drop by as well and we'll have a talk about what you really think is a strong evidence of evolution .
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 10, 2013, 07:13:31 PM
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My God ! How do you come up with these ideas ?!
Allah  chose Adam and Noah and the family of Ibrahim - peace upon them all - from the rest of mankind . Meaning they are above others for they were chosen to be prophets and deliver the message of Allah to people . And in the second sign Allah says they are descendants FROM EACH OTHER . The order is Adam , Noah , and Ibrahim peace upon them all

Allah chose Adam from the rest of mankind, YES! You finally get it!

Who did Allah choose Adam over? The other creations that existed with Adam.

Who did Allah choose Noah over? The other humans that existed with Noah.

Who did Allah choose the family of Abraham over? The other humans that existed with Abraham.

Notice verse 2:30; (Quran 2:30) And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority.

Who was Adam succeeded over in EARTH? Other animals.

This is nothing more than a literal interpretation of the verse.

Next, the verse does not say they are descendants from each other, that's what you want it to read. The verse says 'descendants'. some of them (baʿḍuhā) from others.  http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=3&verse=34#(3:34:1) IF you are telling me that your Arabic is better than the Quranic scholars, you got another thing coming.

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I was right indeed . I'm dealing with someone abandoning half of Islam . And you are absolutely not someone to say that Hadith is corrupted

I haven't abandoned anything. A rationally honest person cannot accept hadiths as the word of the prophet. Sorry, I consider myself intellectually honest.

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I really despise people putting words in my mouth . Father Adam WAS created to live in paradise and then sin and repent . Wither it's the real paradise or a paradise on Earth doesn't matter here . The story is in the Quran which you claim to follow.

Considering the Quran, you HAVE to say that Adam was created in Earth. I don't care what part of Earth or 'paradise' on Earth. That is just an excuse on your part to justify the invalid hadith.



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From the sayings of the prophet peace upon him AND Quran which you claim to follow alone 

Where does the Quran say sand, then mud then clay? 


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God perfected what he created WHEN he created it . But you want to force the idea that it MUST mean evolving from something to another.

You don't understand the logic here. YES, God perfected what he created. YES. What does that mean? That creation had a process of perfection. This is too much excuse making on your part to deny reality.


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Correct me if wrong . The first one says that Allah perfected what he created which means that whichever he created was done in a perfect way . No evolution . The same one says that the beginning of creating mankind was of mud . Here , we might have two explanations :
1 - The meant "Human" is our father Adam . In that case , his creation was of mud . No evolution . After that , the lineage after Adam - peace upon him - was through sexual intercourse of husband and wife . No evolution . Then , this sperm in the womb of the mother is formed by God's will and then a spirit is blown in it . Again , no evolution .
2 - The meant "Human" is mankind in general . In this case , the first stage means our father Adam - peace upon him - himself whom was created of mud . And then , the lineage of mankind was through menial water (Sperm) . Again , this water was formed and then given a soul by Allah . Yet again , no evolution .

If it meant Adam (as you agree with): Then Adam would have been created AFTER sexual reproduction.

If it meant mankind: Then mankind would have been created AFTER sexual reproduction and given higher consciousness.I believe this verse was referring to Adam because other verses in the Quran referred to Adam as being proportioned. Either way, evolution is supported.

You also refused to even accept the 3rd possibility

3-It meant mankind has went through a process of perfection. After the BEGINNING of the process, he created sexual reproduction (with semen) and after that process, he fashioned us and given us consciousness.

I'm going to quote Yusif Ali's commentary (the one I have available at hand): "

Man is asked to contemplate his own humble beginning. His material body (apart from life) is a piece of earth or clay, which is another term for primeval matter.Matter is therefore the first stage, but even matter was not self-created. It was created by Allah."

"Then comes life and the reproduction of life."

After fertilization of ovum by the sperm, an individual life comes into existence, and it is gradually fashioned into shape, its limbs are formed; its animal life begins to function; all the beautiful adaptations come into play.

The fourth stage here mentioned is that of distinctive Man, into whom Allah's spirit is breathed. Then he rises higher than animals.


^Do you understand now. LIfe came from Matter, which then sexual reproduction occurred, which then allowed mankind to be gradually fashioned into shape. The Animal gets created, and the fourth stages is what makes Animals different from humans, humans gain higher consciousness.

I'm sorry brother, the evidence here is too overwhelming!


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No one is twisting the meanings other than you . And no one is ignoring what the other says except you ! If you're so weak at language and logic then that's your problem and not ours . If we really go on with you and say that the verses may have different meanings then the sayings of the prophets are the bottom line because they explain in detail the creation of father Adam . Again , if you accuse Hadith of corruption while you know 0 information about it , that's your problem . Another funny thing is : People talk to me about not forcing my opinion on others - And this is nothing to have an opinion about - while you're trying to force yours on us . You don't even say "This might be an explanation" . No , you're saying "This is the ONLY explanation"

I'm going to disregard personal attacks (as if they disprove my arguments). Why do the verses have different meanings from the supposed sayings of the prophet? Because they are not sayings of the prophet. Simple and pure. I've been looking at hadiths and their science for a quite a while now, no rational person can seriously say they are really what the prophet said, uncorrupted--even if it was unintentional. Secondly, the Quran made it clear that its verses' interpretations are not entirely known by humans.

This is a red herring, please go back to the topic.


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YET again , your ignorance of language is your own problem . The verse says "Human" and that's called a noun of a type . Meaning that "Human" here means everything named human . And saying "Him" doesn't contradicts a thing except for those who see contradictions in any and everything just for the sake of showing off .

Adam is humans, Adam was proportioned as well. And Adam was proportioned AFTER sexual reproduction as well. Still proves my point on evolution.

Next, you say that language skills is a problem, I am using a word-for-word multiple translator site that is very authoritative. No longer will that argument of yours have any place.


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Alright , I'll explain again for reminding benefits the believers . The verse says Allah perfected what he created . You want to force the meaning that it MUST mean evolving things after creating them . But ones who know a few things about Arabic OR English know that it isn't necessary . Even when I was a kid of 8 years old and used to read this sign , I used to think "It means that God created the creatures perfectly" and no idea of evolution ever hit someone I know . THEN - and you think writing in capital makes a difference - Allah says that he started creating human out of mud . Here , there are two possible meanings for the word "Human" . The first is that it means Adam - peace upon him - and in that case evolution has no room . God started forming father Adam out of mud , and the story is mentioned in Hadith which you despise so much because you don't know the first thing about it . The other meaning is that "Human" is a "Type noun" which means all mankind . In this case , the beginning of creating man means the first one being Adam peace upon him . Now , when we move to the next sign it says that Allah - after starting forming human out of mud - made his lineage نسل made of water that is sperm . Meaning that God made human reproduce through sexual intercourse . Let's take both meanings again . If the human here is meant to be father Adam then it means that God made his lineage made of sperm which is true with father Adam and mother Eve both AND their children after them . If I take the other meaning , it's also correct because the lineage of mankind - after the first stage of the first man made of mud - is made of sperm . Let's move to the next . It says that Allah blew of his created soul into this human and gave him sight and hearing and hearts . Let's take both meanings again . If we take the meaning that it's the entire human race , it means the formation of the child in the womb as I said . If it means father Adam then it means the same . Done . No evolution .

Adam would be the first human to carry the final mutation to make him look like us. All of the other human mutations at that time had to somehow die or get hidden. So he does have a place in evolution.

Evolution perfects creation. No contradiction here.

Yes, we all already knew that human means mankind collectively. You just fail to connect the dot that that means ADAM too.

So yes, Adam's lineage was made from semen. No contradiction with evolution here. The support of evolution comes after when it says that AFTER our ability to make a reproductive liquid, we were ALL proportioend and given consciousness (including Adam, other verses say Adam was proportioned and given consciousness) This verse says that Adam (and consequently you) was proportioned and given consciousnesses AFTER sexual reproduction's formation.

So that means that Adam himself was in a womb!

Just as Quran 16:4 describes: "He created man from a sperm-drop; then at once, he is a clear adversary". If Allah created mankind from a sperm-drop, that means Allah created Adam from a sperm drop because Adam was the first man who is all of our fathers. Just as you agreed above. You see, I am not adding an excuse to any verse, I am stating what it says.

Adam was also created from nutfah. If Adam is the first one to be like us, then it must logically follow that his father or ancestors were not like him. To put in scientific terms, Adam would be the first human mutation (that is like us) that has sexually been isolated from the other human-like people and procreates.

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Trying to make me look bad through saying I don't accept science does nothing . What I don't accept is bigoted lies supported by more lies . To put it simply , you'll clutch to any straw left as long as it means evolution is true and I can't see why.

I ask you to reasonably judge what you said and your excuse making to deny the reality, and judge by what I said which is nothing more than a literal interpretation of the Quran and its application to reality. No excuses made. If the Quran declares all of mankind from being created from Alaq, then we ALL are created from Alaq. If the Quran declares Adam as a descendant and offspring of something, then he IS. No excuses made. Allah is never short of words.

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If I hear more abusing of the word "Science" I'll lose it . I keep telling you that science keeps stepping on the remains of this myth day after another but it seems I'm talking to myself

Personally, I don't think you will ever understand what science is unless you study it. I'm not going to put this one against you.

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Not related . I said it before , we have the sayings of the prophet peace upon him and they are more than enough for every Muslim who respects Islam

If you want to believe the Chinese whispers over the Quran, its your choice. Allah is the judge.

The Quran says this: "And We have revealed the Book to you which has clear explanation of everything, and a guidance, mercy and good news for those who submit." (Qur'an 16:89)

No hadith needed. But of course, the Chinese whispers have authority over the Quran. My advice is to follow the sunnah (even though it may be corrupted) because we can't know if the prophet  (pbuh) actually told us to do such.



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I SWEAR to God that you're completely ignorant of any and everything in this science . Our last conversation showed it . And you need to understand that seeing something on the internet doesn't make you a scholar . Just because you read an article or two doesn't mean you know about it . And going further on will show yet more ignorance which would make one facepalm .

I don't recall saying that something on the internet makes me a scholar. If a scholar says something, I post it and show you what they said.

I'm telling you that you are ignorant and you still to fallacious beliefs rather than the Quranic truth. If you seek truth, find truth. Not lies and self-deception and excuse making.

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If you ever played a game back in grade school, its like the whisper game, the teacher promised everyone a lolipop if we could whisper what she says to the next person in a chain and see if the last whisper is the same as the original teacher's whisper. Although we all wanted that lolipop, we tried to listen carefully and did our best. In the end, the last whisper is so different from the original teacher's whisper even though we all had good intentions. In the last whisper, there is some truth in it, but it concealed much detail, exaggerated soem and students added their own itnerpreations to the whisper. Would it be far fetched to say the same things happened in hadiths? I don't think so.
I would have slapped you for this insolence if you were in front of me . I tell you about a science which scholars spend years learning and gathering and you think making a farce of this joke deems it invalid ?!

Does the fact that scholars spent years gathering hadiths in any way tell you that they are uncorrupted? No. Do you know how they judge hadiths as to whether they are authentic or not? If the speakers had good Character.

My uncle told me that his friend said that his friend said that his cousin said that his great grandfather said that his uncle said that the prophet said...

Sorry bro, not something a logical person can accept.


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Why not ? You're so sure of it that you call denying it an embarrassment to Islam . The truth is , you were forced to study this in school and so you don't dare question it as if it was a gospel . I told you to drop by here :
www.eltwhed.com/vb/forum.php
so that I show you and you still made no comment . Truthful is the one who said that Darwinism is a new religion with a doctrine 

Give me a specific argument, please. Evolution is fact and you need to be very well-understanding of it. There is a reason why nearly all scientists accept it. Its not based on blind belief, like hadith.

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Uh-huh . And I'M the one being rude and offensive ? And twisting the meanings to suit my desire ? What desire ? The desire that we were created already perfectly and there was no need for a goddamned myth as evolution ?

The desire to make sure evolution is not in the Quran.... And yes you are twisting clear verses.

We were created through Allah perfecting us. That says that we were once imperfect and made perfect.

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Because you show serious lack of knowledge about Arabic AND English AND logic ! You have something with multiple meanings , and another one saying that the true meaning is only one . Logically , you'd go with that one meaning because there is no room for doubt anymore . But you want to force the idea that the other WRONG meaning is the right one .
Between you and me , I KNOW your type . We see ones like that every now and then . They read a few articles on internet and thought they can judge the ones who spent their whole lives learning or even say the companions of the prophet are hypocrites . Abandon the idea that you're the genius who discovered what others couldn't all these centuries.

Personal attacks will yet again be ignored. I don't attack you, so its common courtesy not to attack me. Disprove my points rather than attack me.

I am interpreting verses my the WRONG way? Or am I using multiple sources and a word for word translation made by scholars. http://corpus.quran.com/

You have a verse with multiple meanings, and you have to judge what the probability is that verse is talking about. For example:

The computer has a hard-drive could be interpreted as the computer has a hard-drive to do work, or that the computer has a physical substance called a hard-drive. Which one is more probable?

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Because it's mentioned in this sign o headache bringer !! For the thousand time , if you know nothing about language then it's your problem . No book of explanation says a thing about this doctrine called "Evolution" .  And I as a simple commoner can give a more rational explanation which is that we were made to grow out of the soil of Earth as said before . The problem is with the ones who make this myth a religion to follow . And if you look at the meaning of "إنبات" here :
http://www.almaany.com/quran/26/7/6/
it says that it is making something grow out of Earth or by making something out of this Earth . And even in the worst case scenario , if we take it as literally meaning that we grew out of ground then it is a metaphor because we have other crystal clear evidence that it isn't .

Nonetheless, The word does not mean plants, but growth like plants. There is a reason it wasn't translated as plants. Regardless if it is a metaphor or not, we grew out of the Earth  a GRADUAL growth. Not instantly created in paradise and put on Earth. So many excuses, brother, STOP. No need for excuses, the verse says we grew out of the Earth. That means were were a part of Earth. And some linguistics believe it means a gradual growth. That's it. Compare this idea to evolution vs. your creationism. What makes more sense?

Secondly you made a circular reasoning fallacy that atheists make. The Quran cannot support science or evolution because it is an old book not from God. Then they say the Quran is not from God because it is an old book that doesn't support evolution. Don't sink to their level. Of course the Quran was't interpreted to support evolution back then, although there are many possible interpretations, they would use the ones they actually think is right. That is the miracle of the Quran .Supports all beliefs at all times.

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After all this displaying of ignorance of Quran , Hadith , language , and logic , you're not one to accuse others of changing the meanings of something

After all this displaying of excuse making, personal attacks and refusing to address why I say you are changing the meanings of verses--I have to make the conclusion that you know that you are making excuses to support your old-age factually incorrect beliefs.

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Be skeptical as much as you like when you're buying tomatoes . We're here talking about a whole science . Someone with absolutely no knowledge of it is the last to criticize it . You want me to see all this evidence you talk about . You want me to "Learn" . And now you think a rotten article on internet makes you able to take or let whatever you want of Islam ?

There is more ground on evolution than Hadiths. Don't commit the appeal to authority fallacy. I do not claim nor did I ever claim to have full knowledge of anything, that does not disprove my points.

What article are you talking about? Why do you assume my beliefs are based off of one article? My beleifs are based off of a rational judgement of reality.

If any of you can seriously show me that Evolution is not a Quranic concept, then you win. Simple as that. Its a simple challenge that no one succeeded to. When you have verses that show:

1.) Creation had a process of perfection
2.) We grew from the Earth
3.) Mankind came from the descendants of another people
4.) All of mankind was created from an Embryo
5.) Adam was an offspring of something
6.) Creation from basic earth compounds gradually turning into more advanced forms (sexual reproduction) and gets even more advanced to achieve consciousness
7.) We were created into stages
8.)Every animal is created out of water
9.) Allah BEGINS creation
10.) Mankind was a successor to Earth
11.) Allah will substitute us with a creation by a change of form (76:28)
12.) Jesus and Adam were created in the same manner! (Jesus was born in a womb)
13.) All of mankind was created from a sperm drop.

VERY compelling verses...

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Fantasy my foot ! An insult to me is something I can tolerate , but insulting the companions and entire nations is unforgivable !

Where did I insult you or the companions. We must make it clear when I insult someone's beliefs, I am not insulting them, but their beliefs.

Fantasy your foot? So you believe the Earth is flat, The sun travels around the Earth, the stars are literally in the sky, there are 7 glass domes above us, drinking animal urine will cure you, creation was a magical instant etc.?

None of those are Quranic concepts. The Quran does allude to those concepts, but it does so so it doesn't contradict our beleifs as well.

You completely disregarded my argument that the Quran supports 7th century belief WITHOUT contradicting and supporting our beliefs. .

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The verse is talking about those whose hearts are astray . And if we compare between those who lived right after the prophet and some nobody who sticks his nose in whatever he thinks he can , well , you'd be the one astray.

Yes, and the verse also is talking about how verses in the Quran are not meant to be understood by everyone, even the companions themselves. This further alludes to my point. Secondly, am I the one astray who is not making excuses about Quranic verses and reading them as they are? I don't think so. I don't make excuses, the verses speak for themselves.

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I wanted to add one more verse to you directory of information. Take a look at this:

Quran 35:11 And Allah did create you from dust; then from a sperm-drop; then He made you in pairs

Really judge this verse, it has a VERY important meaning.

Allah created us from dust (something simple and lifeless) THEN from a sperm drop THEN made you in pairs.

You believe that Allah made us in pairs BEFORE sexual reproduction. You believe that Allah created Adam and Eve (a pair) and then we came from their nutfah--you used this to deny how verse 32:7-9 is in support of evolution. But this verse here just killed your belief and your refutation to 32:7-9. AFTER the creation of nutfah, we were made in pairs, not before. So that means that Adam and eve (a pair/mates) were created from/after nutfah. Ultimately, Adam and eve were created from and after the creation of nutfah. And whoever their parents are, if Adam and eve were the first humans to take on our form, then their parents are not like them or us.

Time to wake up, brother. Be honest with me, be honest with yourself, be honest with Allah. The Quran is clear as day!

 May Allah (the most ingenious creator and evolver) guide us all to truth.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 10, 2013, 07:21:00 PM
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I don't think the verses brought by the supporters of "Adam's parents theory in the Quran" should be included under "mutashabihat" their meaning is very clear ,just the supporters read so much in between the lines...

next post inshallah another visit to the verses ...

Adam's parent's theory should be very clear int he Quran in my opinion (when you don't make excuses about them and read them for what they are). But there are many verses which are allegorical and this one may be as well. Either way, the Quran is not meant to be known entirely by everyone and only Allah truly means their true interpreations
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: abdullah on September 10, 2013, 11:11:32 PM
Assalamualykum brother
Based on the verses you have shown 1) I believe that evolution of humans does not contradict the Qur'an 2) I also don't believe that evolution is necessary to interpret the verses you selected.
Alright throwing doubt over the ahadith is one thing, but to throw doubt over the sunnah is tantamount to rejecting the Qur'an for two reasons. 1) The Sunnah just like Qur'an has been passed on from generation to generation  with too much people passing it on for any falsehood to enter it. 2) It would only be logical to assume that Allah protected the sunnah because that is how we practice the religion.

Here are some of the arguments I found against evolution.

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/07/what_are_the_to_1062011.html

Visit the link above I realized after I posted the article it is hard to read.


Lack of a viable mechanism for producing high levels of complex and specified information. Related to this are problems with the Darwinian mechanism producing irreducibly complex features, and the problems of non-functional or deleterious intermediate stages. (For details see: "The NCSE, Judge Jones, and Bluffs About the Origin of New Functional Genetic Information," "Do Car Engines Run on Lugnuts? A Response to Ken Miller & Judge Jones's Straw Tests of Irreducible Complexity for the Bacterial Flagellum," "Opening Darwin's Black Box," or "Can Random Mutations Create New Complex Features? A Response to TalkOrigins"); The failure of the fossil record to provide support for Darwinian evolution. (For details, see "Punctuated Equilibrium and Patterns from the Fossil Record" or "Intelligent Design Has Scientific Merit in Paleontology"); The failure of molecular biology to provide evidence for a grand "tree of life." (For details, see: "A Primer on the Tree of Life"); Natural selection is an extremely inefficient method of spreading traits in populations unless a trait has an extremely high selection coefficient; The problem that convergent evolution appears rampant -- at both the genetic and morphological levels, even though under Darwinian theory this is highly unlikely. (For details, see "Convergent Genetic Evolution: 'Surprising' Under Unguided Evolution, Expected Under Intelligent Design" and "Dolphins and Porpoises and...Bats? Oh My! Evolution's Convergence Problem"); The failure of chemistry to explain the origin of the genetic code. (For details, see "The origin of life remains a mystery" or "Problems with the Natural Chemical 'Origin of Life'"); The failure of developmental biology to explain why vertebrate embryos diverge from the beginning of development. (For details, see: "Evolving views of embryology," "A Reply to Carl Zimmer on Embryology and Developmental Biology," "Current Textbooks Misuse Embryology to Argue for Evolution"); The failure of neo-Darwinian evolution to explain the biogeographical distribution of many species. (For details, see "Sea Monkey Hypotheses Refute the NCSE's Biogeography Objections to Explore Evolution" or "Sea Monkeys Are the Tip of the Iceberg: More Biogeographical Conundrums for Neo-Darwinism"); A long history of inaccurate predictions inspired by neo-Darwinism regarding vestigial organs or so-called "junk" DNA. (For details, ] see: "Intelligent Design and the Death of the 'Junk-DNA' Neo-Darwinian Paradigm," "The Latest Proof of Evolution: The Appendix Has No Important Function," or "Does Darrel Falk's Junk DNA Argument for Common Descent Commit 'One of the Biggest Mistakes in the History of Molecular Biology'?); Humans show many behavioral and cognitive traits and abilities that offer no apparent survival advantage (e.g. music, art, religion, ability to ponder the nature of the universe). - See more at: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/07/what_are_the_to_1062011.html#sthash.xuOQsK76.dpuf
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Black Muslim on September 11, 2013, 09:40:18 AM
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Allah chose Adam from the rest of mankind, YES! You finally get it!
Who did Allah choose Adam over? The other creations that existed with Adam.
Who did Allah choose Noah over? The other humans that existed with Noah.
Who did Allah choose the family of Abraham over? The other humans that existed with Abraham.
Notice verse 2:30; (Quran 2:30) And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority.
 
Again , don't put words in my mouth . Allah favored them on the rest of "عالمين" = Worlds of humans and Jins and angels ... etc . No evolution at all . And then :

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Who was Adam succeeded over in EARTH? Other animals.
And you talk about wishful thinking ? The simple answer is that there were other creatures on Earth before humans . Does it in any way that man came from animals ? No . And do Jins ring any bell ?

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Next, the verse does not say they are descendants from each other, that's what you want it to read.
Great ! More acrobatic explanations !

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IF you are telling me that your Arabic is better than the Quranic scholars, you got another thing coming.
So now scholars are to be taken for evidence ? Ok Mr. evasive , the entire body of scholars from the beginning of Islam said nothing about this myth . Case closed . And EVEN this page you brought says nothing about this religion you're so desperate to force on Islam . Firstly , saying that these are descendants of each other doesn't have to include father Adam but only his offspring . That's a matter of language and logic . Moreover , if we were to take it as literal ascendancy of blood and flesh then it would contradict this one .
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Tawbah 67 The hypocrites, both men and women, proceed one from another
But rather , they are proceeding of each other in delivering the message of God .

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I haven't abandoned anything. A rationally honest person cannot accept hadiths as the word of the prophet. Sorry, I consider myself intellectually honest.
And I consider you an enemy of Islam . It seems that you wouldn't trust Hadith until your Gods of west say that its science is the best through history . And to surprise you more , they did :
http://abohobelah.blogspot.com/2012/06/blog-post_7750.html

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Considering the Quran, you HAVE to say that Adam was created in Earth. I don't care what part of Earth or 'paradise' on Earth. That is just an excuse on your part to justify the invalid hadith.
Until you explain it's just another empty claim of yours the same as every point you have said . And I can see that you're starting to lose it .

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Where does the Quran say sand, then mud then clay? 
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Rahman (13) He created man of clay like the potter's,
And you know where mud is mentioned .

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You don't understand the logic here. YES, God perfected what he created. YES. What does that mean? That creation had a process of perfection. This is too much excuse making on your part to deny reality.
Then go back to high school and study logic of math and language . Another thing is , according to your acrobatic explanations everything should have evolved ! Didn't God create rocks ? Then they must have been different things before ? Didn't God create Gold ? Then it must have been silver according to your logic !

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If it meant Adam (as you agree with): Then Adam would have been created AFTER sexual reproduction.
So far , the problem is either that you lack knowledge of Arabic or that you're stubborn to this ideology . How on earth do you understand that "Then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid" mean that the first cell - And it says "Human"- formed reproductive organs , with three question and exclamation marks ???!!! This question of mine answers this one of yours
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You also refused to even accept the 3rd possibility
3-It meant mankind has went through a process of perfection. After the BEGINNING of the process, he created sexual reproduction (with semen) and after that process, he fashioned us and given us consciousness.
This probability is not to be taken because it contradicts with Sunnah AND the basics of Arabic grammar !

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I'm going to quote Yusif Ali's commentary (the one I have available at hand): "
Man is asked to contemplate his own humble beginning. His material body (apart from life) is a piece of earth or clay, which is another term for primeval matter.Matter is therefore the first stage, but even matter was not self-created. It was created by Allah."
"Then comes life and the reproduction of life."
After fertilization of ovum by the sperm, an individual life comes into existence, and it is gradually fashioned into shape, its limbs are formed; its animal life begins to function; all the beautiful adaptations come into play.
The fourth stage here mentioned is that of distinctive Man, into whom Allah's spirit is breathed. Then he rises higher than animals.
^Do you understand now. LIfe came from Matter, which then sexual reproduction occurred, which then allowed mankind to be gradually fashioned into shape. The Animal gets created, and the fourth stages is what makes Animals different from humans, humans gain higher consciousness.
(http://www.9ori.com/blog/media/images/b68929988c.jpg)
OK , OK . First thing first , quoting someone means nothing . YOU'RE the one who calls Hadith 7th century fantasies and lack proper manner when talking about it . So bringing the sayings of a man that isn't even a scolar of Hadith means nothing . That's first . Secondly , HOW ON EARTH DID YOU COME UP WITH THIS MEANING FROM HIS WORDS ??!! The man says that man is created of matter that isn't alive . Then when a soul is poured into him he is given consciousness which differs him from animals . I should bring aspirin with me ! This headache is unbearable !

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I'm sorry brother, the evidence here is too overwhelming!
Overwhelm my foot ! If it's really as you think it is then come prove it to us where I told you . Have some courage and read something that doesn't match what you were forced to learn in school .

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I'm going to disregard personal attacks (as if they disprove my arguments)
OK , what kind of a farce is this ? Saying you're ignorant of Arabic and logic AFTER proving it is a personal attack ?

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Why do the verses have different meanings from the supposed sayings of the prophet? Because they are not sayings of the prophet. Simple and pure I've been looking at hadiths and their science for a quite a while now, no rational person can seriously say they are really what the prophet said, uncorrupted--even if it was unintentional.
You know what ? Among the types of people I despise the most are the arrogant and and ignorant . So do you have an idea of how much I facepalm when you gathered both ? Already , the last conversation about Hadith showed your true degree in it . Enough said .

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And Adam was proportioned AFTER sexual reproduction as well. Still proves my point on evolution.
I already demonstrated that your explanation of it as forming of sexual reproductive organs is out of the box .

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I am using a word-for-word multiple translator site that is very authoritative. No longer will that argument of yours have any place.
Authorized my foot !!! You shamelessly insult Hadith and call it corrupted and now you talk about authorization ?! "If you have no shame then do as you please" !

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Evolution perfects creation. No contradiction here.
It DOES contradicts everything . Quran says that God created everything perfect .

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The support of evolution comes after when it says that AFTER our ability to make a reproductive liquid, we were ALL proportioend and given consciousness (including Adam, other verses say Adam was proportioned and given consciousness) This verse says that Adam (and consequently you) was proportioned and given consciousnesses AFTER sexual reproduction's formation.
So that means that Adam himself was in a womb!
Already explained . Take a course and come back .

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Adam was also created from nutfah.
No comment . If you want to throw sanity and logic out of the window then I would have left you be . But to ignore Quran and Sunnah then that's the red line !

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and judge by what I said which is nothing more than a literal interpretation of the Quran and its application to reality. No excuses made.
Moreover , literal my foot ! No Arabic or English or logic ?!

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Personally, I don't think you will ever understand what science is unless you study it. I'm not going to put this one against you.
Keep that personal nonsense to yourself . I won't be judge by someone so ignorant of Quran and Hadith that he doesn't know the first thing about them as proven before .

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If you want to believe the Chinese whispers over the Quran, its your choice. Allah is the judge.
After all of this , even saying something censored is being nice you . If you can't clean your filthy mouth , don't try to talk like someone civilized .

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I'm telling you that you are ignorant and you still to fallacious beliefs rather than the Quranic truth. If you seek truth, find truth. Not lies and self-deception and excuse making.
Someone seems to have lost his cool edge .

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Does the fact that scholars spent years gathering hadiths in any way tell you that they are uncorrupted? No. Do you know how they judge hadiths as to whether they are authentic or not? If the speakers had good Character.
My uncle told me that his friend said that his friend said that his cousin said that his great grandfather said that his uncle said that the prophet said...
Sorry bro, not something a logical person can accept.
Only a madman would compare this method to Hadith . Already explained . And yes , I happen to know a small fragment of the science of Hadith . The difference is that I'm not ignorant like someone .

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Give me a specific argument, please. Evolution is fact and you need to be very well-understanding of it. There is a reason why nearly all scientists accept it.
Fact my foot !
http://antishobhat.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_11.html

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Its not based on blind belief, like hadith.
That's it ! Insulting me is something , insulting Islam is another !!!! If you coward have a shred of shame or dignity then come debate :
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/forum.php

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Personal attacks will yet again be ignored. I don't attack you, so its common courtesy not to attack me. Disprove my points rather than attack me.
What personal attacks ? You attacked Islam and I redirected your poisonous arrows at you .

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So many excuses, brother,
I am NOT a brother of an enemy of Islam . Flat out .

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Secondly you made a circular reasoning fallacy that atheists make. The Quran cannot support science or evolution because it is an old book not from God. Then they say the Quran is not from God because it is an old book that doesn't support evolution. Don't sink to their level
Nobody sank to their level but you . And lying about me and saying something I didn't say shows that either you're failing to understand or that you're a hypocrite . You call whatever you don't like as 7th century fantasy . If we tell you that no scholar said what you say you brag "I only follow Quran" and Quran is innocent of you . But now , you bring me sayings of some guys on internet - And they don't even support you ! - and take them as gospels !

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After all this displaying of excuse making, personal attacks and refusing to address why I say you are changing the meanings of verses--I have to make the conclusion that you know that you are making excuses to support your old-age factually incorrect beliefs.
For everyone reading : Don't mind if I say that this man is retarded . I address every single point he makes and he simply shoves them off and then goes "Why do you twist the meaning ?" while he AWFULLY fails to show how come his retarded interruptions have a ground on either Quran or Hadith or logic or Arabic OR English !

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What article are you talking about? Why do you assume my beliefs are based off of one article? My beleifs are based off of a rational judgement of reality.
As you have proved , your beliefs are based on irrational twisted explanations which Satan wouldn't have thought of . And I know your type . The common thing between you is arrogance thinking that you're so special because you came up with something different . No matter how much one explains or shows you how wrong you are , you still repeat like parrots .

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Where did I insult you or the companions. We must make it clear when I insult someone's beliefs, I am not insulting them, but their beliefs.
I wouldn't be surprised if you were actually an Atheist because this is the same sadistic foul logic of theirs . OK then , I say that your mother is [Peep] . According to your lack of upbringing , you shouldn't be offended . If you - who don't mind insulting Islam - are a bunch of sissies then that is your own goddamn business !

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drinking animal urine will cure you,
As I said , your beliefs are based on personal "I don't like it" thinking . Read a little and get more educated
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/showthread.php?49346-%C7%E1%D1%CF-%C7%E1%DA%E1%E3%ED-%D6%CF-%DF%E1-%E3%E4%DF%D1-%E1%CD%CF%ED%CB-%C8%E6%E1-%C7%E1%C5%C8%E1-!!-quot-%D0%ED%E1-%DA%E1%EC-%E3%E6%D6%E6%DA-%D4%DD%C7%C1-%C7%E1%CE%C8%E1-quot

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Yes, and the verse also is talking about how verses in the Quran are not meant to be understood by everyone, even the companions themselves.
OH ! And a nobody thinks he can understand what the prophet and his companions didn't ?!

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Time to wake up, brother. Be honest with me, be honest with yourself, be honest with Allah. The Quran is clear as day!
Nah , I think it's time for you to wake up from drinking too much alcohol .

In the end , if you're so desperate to prove that you're an evolving animal then so be it . We're humans and God says "We have certainly created man in the best of stature;" so we take no pride in being called animals .
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: FARHAN_UDDIN on September 11, 2013, 11:39:51 AM
Assalamualykum.


 Brother it seems like this thread is creating divisions among us. Brothers, I urge upon all of you to stop arguing with each other. A critical time is going on for the Muslims. So, instead of fighting and arguing with each other, we should remain united.  Allah said in the Quran:


"And all of you, catch hold of Allah's rope firmly. Do not be separated from each other''(Surah Al-Imran:103)


 Lets close this thread here. And be friends again.

And brother mclinkin as I have advised you earlier, please pray 2 Ra'kat Nafl salah , close your eyes and analyze the entire fact again. May be by the grace of Allah you will reach a conclusion.

 And brother, I think no one can give any proper solution to this problem, because still we couldn't gain sufficient knowledge about Quran or Science. So, instead of going for any deep interpretations lets just have faith in the Verses concerning creation of the Human beings. Your interpretation might be true or might not be. Allah knows the best.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Black Muslim on September 11, 2013, 01:01:48 PM
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Brother it seems like this thread is creating division among us. Brothers, I urge upon all of you to stop arguing with each other.
Say that to the one insulting Islam . And keep in mind that truth comes before everything even the link of flesh and blood between two siblings . Abandoning Hadith in case you don't know means abandoning Islam in total . Let me ask : If this method is really untrusted and the best way to keep history then what is ? If we say this method is unreliable or something then why not say that Quran is also corrupted because we can't make sure that it was passed the same through history ? Why not say that there was never a man called Muhammad ? How can we know that there ever was ? It could be a legend forged by someone . Why not say that all history we have is corrupted ? If this perfect method isn't reliable then how can I be sure that there was a world war one or two ? Maybe it's a legend forged by someone . Why can't the ones after us say that there was never a war in Syria or anywhere and that they are just legends ? You see ? If we take that twisted track of mind , we'll end up abandoning the entire history and Islam . And I'd like to know how do the ones denying Hadith practice any kind of worship if they don't follow Sunnah ! How many prayers do they pray ? How do they perform Haj ? Truth is , they don't do a thing at all . And that's what one of them said . He said that fasting in other than Ramadan is a fable ! That the Friday prayer is a fable ! And so on ! All because he denies the sayings of the prophet peace upon him . Did you see what this road leads to ? And that's why they show up and say that Jews and Christians will enter paradise if they remain on their religion ! That's why they show up and call some - or all - the companions hypocrites and infidels ! That's why they say one can commit adultery because Islam doesn't restrict freedom !
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: FARHAN_UDDIN on September 11, 2013, 01:29:14 PM
Assalamualykum.

Brother Black Muslim, I agree with you. Yes without the Sunnah its not possible for us to knowthe process of worshiping Allah. And I think, I read somewhere that some hadiths were written during the lifetime of Muhammad(pbuh). If I get the link to that article, I'll post it on the forum. Inshallah.


 
 Its true that no other book can be 100% authentic except The Quran. But Sahih hadiths can be 70 to 80% authentic.


Allah knows the Best.

Take Care.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: abdullah on September 12, 2013, 12:31:00 AM
Respect each other!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNuzjGcbVFY
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Black Muslim on September 12, 2013, 07:38:28 AM
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Its true that no other book can be 100% authentic except The Quran. But Sahih hadiths can be 70 to 80% authentic.
It depends on the chain of this Hadith and other things about it . First of all , one must understand that when a scholar calls his book "Sahih" then that's according to his knowledge . But when nations of scholars from Spain of the far west to near India from the east search through all these sayings , there is no way one can say they all cooperated to corrupt them ! And even the authorized of Bukhari was criticized and searched through and there were weak unauthorized sayings in it . Does it mean we should say everything else is unauthorized ? No . People should understand that we don't say the book of Bukhari is authorized because it was written by Bukhari . No , it is authorized because it was the most strictly gathered book among all with most accuracy .

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Respect each other!!!
If the insult was about me , I wouldn't have been this angry . But it was an insult to Islam itself by insulting Hadith which is Sunnah .
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: abdullah on September 21, 2013, 08:06:13 PM
salam
Hadith and Sunnah are two different concepts. The Sunnah is more reliable than ahadith. I am not saying this to throw doubt over the ahadith, but only to show that the sunnahs transmision is more reliable than the ahadith transmission

http://www.understanding-islam.com/articles/sources-of-islam/hadith-and-sunnah-two-different-concepts-186 (http://www.understanding-islam.com/articles/sources-of-islam/hadith-and-sunnah-two-different-concepts-186)

The history of Ahadith and their compilation is a long and tedious investigative process far too grand to be encapsulated within the short pages of this article.  Therefore the attempt will be to try to clarify misunderstood concepts and to summarize the understanding of Sunnah and Ahadith better.

The terms Sunnah and Hadith have been, wrongly, amalgamated.  Typically when one or the other word is being referenced, its true meaning is taken for granted as if it is inseparable from the other word.  This has not only caused confusion, but has created this ideology that one depends on the other in order to complete what the Qur'an has not mentioned in regards to religion.  This is a fallacious presumption.  In order for the reader to appreciate the difference and their affects, a thorough study of the subject should be undertaken.  Nevertheless, this article shall be an attempt to clarify the terms and their functions in a clear and simple manner.

In trying to analyze Ahadith a comprehensible and simple definition must be arrived at.  In the simplest of definitions a Hadith is a reported tradition.  Yet, in Islamic terms its scope is narrowed to very sensitive terminology affecting the overall scheme of Islamic doctrine.  Hadith, as defined by Understanding Islam, is a narration of the words or acts of the Prophet, as perceived and transmitted by one or more persons who heard or saw the Prophet saying or performing these acts.  These attributed perceptions to the Prophet are critical in developing the clear distinction of Sunnah from Hadith.  The reader may examine this by a short example:

A teacher teaches with words and actions in a classroom setting.  Students A, B, C, learn from this teacher but they were not allowed to write anything down.  The teacher is out of the picture yet the students pass on the teacher's material to the next generation of students (D, E, F, G, H, I).  Thereafter the classroom size grows and A, B, C no longer are around to teach so D, E, F, G, H, I teach the next set of students which is growing rapidly.  The cycle of students becoming teachers developed through the generations.  However, new ideas began to spring up and were made out to be of the original teaching.  So, another student (X) decides to take the initiative to gather all the teaching of words and action to verify and compile them for the masses.

The above narration is a crude illustration of the process of how Ahadiths were compiled.  Although this magnificent feat was achieved, many potential problems arose along with the compilation of these traditions.  Other than the most obvious problems that one may observe there are several that are not as easily decipherable.  For example, the context and setting of many Ahadith are missing.  The Prophet may have well passed an injunction on something but the very important factors of the framework are not clearly understood.  The lack of background information may throw the entire situation into confusion.  Even if those who have transferred the information do it to their best ability, there are still potential dangers.  The traditions as received and understood by one or more persons is important.  The meaning that each individual has placed upon the words may "color" the transmission.  A word may be left out or replaced.  If this were not the case the great compilers would not have had to sift through hundreds of thousands of Ahadith.  Some authentic ones may have been discarded while some not so authentic ones may have been compiled.  Ahadith, though the science of their collection is far more sophisticated, is basically a written history of events.  This in no way belittles the compilers or the Ahadith themselves nor the subjects they refer to but rather puts them in perspective to their nature and their importance in Islam.

The Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad was established during his life for all to follow and to pass on for generations.  The Sunnah is the second primary source of the doctrine of Islam, the Qur'an being the first. They go hand in hand to complete the beliefs and practices all Muslims are to follow.  However, the question arises, "what is Sunnah?"  The Sunnah is a set of practices that the Prophet taught the Muslims to follow.  For twenty-three years, five times a day, he showed them how to purify themselves for payer (ablution, Wudu).  For the same amount of years and the same number of times a day, he showed them how to pray.  He showed them to eat with their right hands, and invoke God's name and blessings upon the food and to thank God when finished.  For a number of years he taught them to perform the pilgrimage (Hajj) and all its details and many other things that Muslims do now as if it is second nature.  It was not what he ate or how he ate, nor was it what he dressed in or what he preferred that became Sunnah.  It was the belief and conviction in the One God that became manifest in these practices which is the Sunnah.  It was a code of practice limited to what God has ordained for humankind for all time.  These set of practices were passed on through generations without the problems faced by Ahadith.  There is no perception problem, or lack of context placement.  There is not an individual that may mislead (whether purposefully or innocently) the rest of the chain from himself on.  There is no confusing a certain practice as that taught by the Prophet with that taught by someone else.  The Prophet was teaching the Sunnah of Islam to multitudes of people observing.  It may have begun with ten who observed, then a hundred who followed, then thousands all observing the same practice over and over again, directly from the Prophet.  This has remained a phenomenon to this day.  A man praying in the United States of America does just the same as one who prays in Pakistan, thus following the very prescribed practice of the Messenger of God.  To illustrate better the writer shall share a personal story.

I had always loved religion from the time when I was a child.  It just fascinated me.  I used to watch several of my family members pray and wanted to learn from them.  My grandfather one day decided to take me to the local Mosque.  I must have been only 3 or 4 years old at the time.  He showed me how prepare for prayer and how to perform the ablution.  We walked across the street and he proceeded to tell me to just follow what everyone else is doing.  He said, in time, I would get better and the more we went together the more I would learn.  When we got to the Mosque we took off our shoes to sit and listen to the imam.  Then prayer began and I tried to follow by watching from the corner of my eyes, sometimes turning my head to see better what was going on.  When we were finished we went home and my grandfather told me he was going to teach me a chapter of the Qur'an called the Opening (Al Fatiha).  I became excited and agreed.  So we began and I kept repeating the words over and over and over again.  My grandfather then lay down and closed his eyes and said, "repeat!"  So, I kept on going.  Every time I made the slightest error he would correct me with the right words.  He fell asleep and I too may have fallen asleep in the middle of reciting the words.  My grandfather was an illiterate man and so was his father and his father's father and so on.  They were religious and they passed down the religion to my father who is highly educated and in turn was taught to us.

The narrative is not an attempt to achieve an emotional response.  It is an attempt at illustrating how the religion of Islam is passed on.  Most Muslims learn their religion by following someone.  By learning through example.  The initial introduction of Islam to the generations of Muslims regards the passing on of the beliefs in the Qur'an and the practice of Sunnah.  All other sources are almost always something pursued later on in life.  This is a mere fact of history.

Sunnah and Hadith, therefore, are completely two different elements within Islamic doctrine.  Sunnah was initiated by the Prophet for his Ummah to follow, while the latter, Hadith, was initiated by great men who wanted to preserve information about the events and incidents in the Prophet's life.  It is a fact of history that the Prophet discouraged the recording any of his words so that they may not be confused with the transmission of the Qur'an, which was the primary mission of the Prophet.  Had the Prophet felt that an essential part of his teachings would be lost if all Hadiths were not recorded then surely he would have ordered them to be written down by official scribes, just as there were official scribes of the Qur'an.  It is obvious that the Prophet would then have taken some preparatory action to develop these Hadiths under his direct supervision.  However, this is not what happened; the entire scheme of bringing Islam to the world was perfectly conveyed through the two primary sources of Islam, the Qur'an and Sunnah.  To say otherwise would be tantamount to claiming that the Prophet failed to complete the doctrine as was revealed to him by God.

There are some, with slanderous intentions, who charge that those outside the realm of Islam concoct these explanations but they fail to provide any such evidence.  They have elevated Ahadith, by invoking the term Sahih, to the status of the Qur'an and make it seem as if Islam is dysfunctional without these traditions.  That is the same stance the Jewish tribes took when they developed their Talmud along with other books and many Christians with their churches.  It is the responsibility of the Muslim Ummah to preserve both primary sources of Islam, the Qur'an and Sunnah, and maintain their religion as was transmitted by the Prophet through the generations.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Black Muslim on September 22, 2013, 05:38:54 AM
Hold it one second , pal . OK , I know that Hadith is something told or said by someone . Still , in conception , Hadith means something told about the prophet Muhammad , the companions , the followers after companions and followers of followers . OK ? And as I said before , there's a whole science for it to make sure no one fabricates or makes lies about it . So , if you want to look at it in detail , Hadith is Sunnah if it's about the prophet peace upon him and mentions something such as an act by him or an order , OK ?


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The above narration is a crude illustration of the process of how Ahadiths were compiled.
No offense but , indeed , this is a crude and wrong illustration of Hadith . Just to show so , you need to know that prophet Muhammad peace upon him DID allow writing Hadith after there was no danger of mistaking it for Quran or the other way around . So this example is invalid .
It seems that no matter how I explain some people are  persistent to make Hadith the same as telling something to someone and therefore it MUST be corrupted . If you ask what evidence they have that it has been corrupted , no answer . The funny thing is that they don't have the slightest idea that a load of fabricated and forged sayings about the prophet and companions and others were exposed by this science and whole books were made for this matter alone . For example , Al-Bukhari didn't only write the authorized book which we know , he had a book named "The weak chain" in which he mentions the weak narrations and forged ones . So PLEASE , read a little about this science before you jump to conclusion that Hadith is corrupted !

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The Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad was established during his life for all to follow and to pass on for generations.  The Sunnah is the second primary source of the doctrine of Islam, the Qur'an being the first. They go hand in hand to complete the beliefs and practices all Muslims are to follow.  However, the question arises, "what is Sunnah?"  The Sunnah is a set of practices that the Prophet taught the Muslims to follow.  For twenty-three years, five times a day, he showed them how to purify themselves for payer (ablution, Wudu).  For the same amount of years and the same number of times a day, he showed them how to pray.  He showed them to eat with their right hands, and invoke God's name and blessings upon the food and to thank God when finished.  For a number of years he taught them to perform the pilgrimage (Hajj) and all its details and many other things that Muslims do now as if it is second nature.  It was not what he ate or how he ate, nor was it what he dressed in or what he preferred that became Sunnah.  It was the belief and conviction in the One God that became manifest in these practices which is the Sunnah.  It was a code of practice limited to what God has ordained for humankind for all time.  These set of practices were passed on through generations without the problems faced by Ahadith.
Uh-huh . And how come you knew that he ever did such things ? No , how come you knew there was ever a man named Muhammad ? If that wasn't through Hadith and history , then how ?

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There is no perception problem, or lack of context placement.  There is not an individual that may mislead (whether purposefully or innocently) the rest of the chain from himself on.  There is no confusing a certain practice as that taught by the Prophet with that taught by someone else.  The Prophet was teaching the Sunnah of Islam to multitudes of people observing.  It may have begun with ten who observed, then a hundred who followed, then thousands all observing the same practice over and over again, directly from the Prophet.  This has remained a phenomenon to this day.
And what's your evidence ? With the same logic you use to accuse Hadith of corruption I can say that someone forged new ways of worship or erased some . The problem is that you compare a whole strict science which looks in every single detail and doesn't allow a single letter to be changed without noticing to a game of "Your telephone is broken" !

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The narrative is not an attempt to achieve an emotional response.  It is an attempt at illustrating how the religion of Islam is passed on.  Most Muslims learn their religion by following someone.  By learning through example.  The initial introduction of Islam to the generations of Muslims regards the passing on of the beliefs in the Qur'an and the practice of Sunnah.  All other sources are almost always something pursued later on in life.  This is a mere fact of history.
Reality says that this is wrong . There are Muslims who drink in Ramadan after the time of Fajr arrives . Why's that ? Because they believe it is OK to do so until Athan is over . Why's that ? Because they saw their parents do it , and their parents saw that from their parents and so on . So , does that mean this act is OK ?

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Sunnah and Hadith, therefore, are completely two different elements within Islamic doctrine.  Sunnah was initiated by the Prophet for his Ummah to follow, while the latter, Hadith, was initiated by great men who wanted to preserve information about the events and incidents in the Prophet's life.  It is a fact of history that the Prophet discouraged the recording any of his words so that they may not be confused with the transmission of the Qur'an, which was the primary mission of the Prophet.  Had the Prophet felt that an essential part of his teachings would be lost if all Hadiths were not recorded then surely he would have ordered them to be written down by official scribes, just as there were official scribes of the Qur'an.  It is obvious that the Prophet would then have taken some preparatory action to develop these Hadiths under his direct supervision.  However, this is not what happened; the entire scheme of bringing Islam to the world was perfectly conveyed through the two primary sources of Islam, the Qur'an and Sunnah.  To say otherwise would be tantamount to claiming that the Prophet failed to complete the doctrine as was revealed to him by God.
I find a huge misunderstanding of conceptions here . In short , Hadith was ordered to be written by the prophet himself . Hadith was written ever since he was alive . Hadith is the words of the prophet himself . And to make sure no one would corrupt it and add things to it , the science of Hadith was used . So , Hadith is the way to know Sunnah if you really want to make them completely different things .

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There are some, with slanderous intentions, who charge that those outside the realm of Islam concoct these explanations but they fail to provide any such evidence.  They have elevated Ahadith, by invoking the term Sahih, to the status of the Qur'an and make it seem as if Islam is dysfunctional without these traditions.  That is the same stance the Jewish tribes took when they developed their Talmud along with other books and many Christians with their churches.  It is the responsibility of the Muslim Ummah to preserve both primary sources of Islam, the Qur'an and Sunnah, and maintain their religion as was transmitted by the Prophet through the generations.
Who said so ?! Where do you get these ideas from ?! We said Hadith - the way to know Sunnah - is the second source of teachings in Islam . Nobody says that it comes in the same statue as Quran ! And again , DON'T COMPARE HADITH TO ACTS OF JEWS AND CHRISTIANS ! I find it useless to repeat that Hadith isn't deemed authorized unless it has the conditions of being right . And when you tell the ones accusing Hadith of corruption to read a little bit about its must basic rules , they don't . So , if you don't know the thing , how can you attack it ?
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 22, 2013, 10:40:09 PM
Hello brother black muslim, i'm going to avoid as much of the rhetoric as I can and answer you questions concisely and quickly. I will not put any rheotric nor insults. I will completely avoid the hadith story. Do not present hadiths to me. If you want to reach a conclusion, then just say that the Quran supports the idea of gradual change to the creation of mankind--but hadiths do not. If you want to be rational and honest, you would say that.

1.) Quran 2:30 is talking about something that mankind succeeded from and had authority over on EARTH. Jinn do not live on earth, they live in the universe as well. Do we have authority over them? of course not, they could posses us, they have free will and they could be Muslim as well. If you notice the jinn are also still here. Notice how in the verse the angels KNEW that we (mankind) would cause corruption on the Earth. How did they know? Because there were creatures like us who have caused such corruption. This verse is showing that there were creatures on the Earth and we came after them to rule over them. That is all it is saying. But it uses the word successive authority in a sense that we are succeeding them and ruling over them. This HAS to be Animals. Apply this verse to other verses and you would see that we came from them and ruled over them. 

2.) Quran 9:67 says nothing of offspring. It is saying that The hypocrite men and women are alike in their hypocrisy. In fact this would actually prove my point and disprove yours. Apply this to Quran 3:33-34. Adam, Noah, Abraham are alike in that they are descendants.

3.) The Quran says that Adam was created on Earth, the hadith your presented contradicted that. That is all we are going to say.

4.)
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d study logic of math and language . Another thing is , according to your acrobatic explanations everything should have evolved ! Didn't God create rocks ? Then they must have been different things before ? Didn't God create Gold ? Then it must have been silver according to your logic !
YES!! Everything evolved. Rocks were not always rocks. A silver atom was not always a silver atom. It had a process of its creation. Just like mankind.

5.) The verse that completely refutes your points is this. This is all I have to post. You can be as dishonest as you want. Adam came from Nutfah (semen). Just like you and I. This would also prove what I said about Quran 32:7-9.

Quran 35:11 And Allah did create you from dust; then from a sperm-drop; then He made you in pairs

Really judge this verse, it has a VERY important meaning.

Allah created us from dust (something simple and lifeless) THEN from a sperm drop THEN made you in pairs.

So having this verse in mind, lets look at Quran 32:7. After Allah BEGAN the creation of mankind, he made the descendants from an ejected fluid and THEN he proportioned Adam into this form and consciousness.

You believe that Allah made us in pairs BEFORE sexual reproduction. You believe that Allah created Adam and Eve (a pair) and then we came from their nutfah--you used this to deny how verse 32:7-9 is in support of evolution. But this verse here just killed your belief and your refutation to 32:7-9. AFTER the creation of nutfah, we were made in pairs, not before. So that means that Adam and eve (a pair/mates) were created from/after nutfah. Ultimately, Adam and eve were created from and after the creation of nutfah. And whoever their parents are, if Adam and eve were the first humans to take on our form, then their parents are not like them or us.

6.) The Quran does not say that Allah created everything perfect. It says that he perfected creation. There is a difference. When you perfect (verb) something, it is through a process that achieves said perfection. Evolution does that.

Put all the verses together and you see the basic idea of gradual creation is supported in the Quran. You like to twist verses, I give you their straightforward meaning. That should mean something to you.

7.) Why do you like to twist clear Quranic verses so that they support your hadiths? the Quran says that ALL of mankind was creaed from ALAQ (embryo), that includes Adam. The Quran says that Adam and Eve were created after nutfah was created. The Quran describes Adam as a descendant. But all I get is excuse making and twisting of verses to support hadiths. To me, I don't like this. We know FOR SURE the Quran is absolute truth, we can never know about hadiths. Manipulating the Quran to support hadiths is not something I would say is honorable. 

8.) If I am not your brother in Islam because I don't follow a corrupted tradition, then I ask that you re-evaluate your supposed rationality.

Note: I am not saying the theory of evolution is supported in the Quran in its entirety! That would be dishonest of myself. I am saying that the basic idea of evolution is supported in the Quran as a method of creation. You must accept that based on the evidence you were presented with.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Black Muslim on September 23, 2013, 01:40:24 AM
I will refrain from going further into this and make it short .

1 - The meaning of evolution in Arabic is "Tatawwor تطور" . But what does it mean ? It means moving from one "Tawr" to another . Yes , Allah created us in different forms and stages wither it's father Adam peace upon him or us . That doesn't have a thing to do with this theory which I find difficult to call so .
2 - Evolution , as in a creature becoming another is proven day in and day out to be false . Not even a single fossil was found for in-between stages . Funny thing is , Darwin said that there has to bee endless numbers of such for the theory to be correct . So the supporters of this theory had to either forge fossils through combining bones from different creatures or say that any skeleton of a monkey they found belonged to an ancestor . You have Lucy as an example , they found a barely complete skeleton of a monkey and said "Oh look , it walks on two feet but with difficulty . It must be an ancestor" . But they have no way of knowing the structure or complete form of this creature . Another is the Nebraska man which was nothing more than a tooth - Oh yeah ! A single tooth ! - they found and said looked like something between that of an ape and human . What did it turn out to be ? A tooth of a pig .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyp6EJczFjc&list=PLesE5BCJseGdi1M8Xr73jtAEEHH2kar2-&index=7

You told me to study evolution to know it which is what everyone say whenever they ask them about proof of it . And now I want you to have one look at some different opinions from what is forced on people to believe :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3bxWN6p68k&list=PLesE5BCJseGdi1M8Xr73jtAEEHH2kar2-&index=41
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmKkNPw3QbU&list=PLesE5BCJseGdi1M8Xr73jtAEEHH2kar2-&index=23
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: abdullah on September 24, 2013, 12:09:54 AM
salam
Brother, I believe the ahadith, my point was not to throw doubt over the ahadith. it was just to show that the sunnah has been passed on from generation to generation by so many people the chances of it having anything corrupted is 0.0000000000001%. Also, not all the ahadith are the exact words of the prophet himself, rather some contain the general message of what the prophet said.

Furthermore, you can find more scientific proof that evolution is a farce at evolutionnews.com
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Black Muslim on September 24, 2013, 06:24:06 AM
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salam
Brother, I believe the ahadith, my point was not to throw doubt over the ahadith. it was just to show that the sunnah has been passed on from generation to generation by so many people the chances of it having anything corrupted is 0.0000000000001%. Also, not all the ahadith are the exact words of the prophet himself, rather some contain the general message of what the prophet said.
Furthermore, you can find more scientific proof that evolution is a farce at evolutionnews.com
Then sorry , I misunderstood . And yes , there are forged sayings among Hadith which are exposed if judged by the science of crediting and discrediting . And yes , not all Hadith is the exact same words of the prophet peace upon him . The companions - Allah be pleased of them - passed the general meaning with no altering . There are types of Hadith which require exact passing down word by word and so it happened . My only point was that abandoning Hadith entirely means abandoning the way in which we understand Quran and Sunnah and history .
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 25, 2013, 11:33:21 AM
I will refrain from going further into this and make it short .

1 - The meaning of evolution in Arabic is "Tatawwor تطور" . But what does it mean ? It means moving from one "Tawr" to another . Yes , Allah created us in different forms and stages wither it's father Adam peace upon him or us . That doesn't have a thing to do with this theory which I find difficult to call so .


I agree brother, evolution is not mentioned in detail in the Quran and we shouldn't say the Quran supports the entire theory and its mechanisms. The Quran isn't a science book it only hints at natural phenomena. The hints in the Quran are in favor of the creation of  mankind and everything around us in stages and not an instant creation. The basic idea of evolution is supported. 

Further Tatawwor can be applied to Adam also because  QUran 71:14 is talking about all of mankind being created in stages, and a few verses down Quran 71:17 says we grew from the earth a progressive growth.

In my opinion that is enough to show evolution's support in the Quran! But I have offered many verses to support evolution! Not a single verse in the Quran goes against evolution! You must accept the Quran's basic idea of gradual stages in creation.

How about when you have verses that show that Adam himself was made from sperm? And if Adam is the first human to be like us today, then it must logically follow that his father (who donated sperm) was different from him.

[Quran 76:2] Indeed, We created man from a sperm-drop mixture so that We may try him; and We made him hearing and seeing.

^Is Adam a man: Yes
^Is Adam created to be tested or tried: Yes
^Is Adam created to hear and see: Yes.
^Is Adam created to hear and see because he was going to be tried/tested: Yes
^Is Adam capable of getting tried/tested because he was made of a sperm drop: Yes.

All the Quran needs is one verse to support the basic idea of evolution.

Obviously the Quran didn't detail evolution. But it said many times we were created in stages.




 
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: abdullah on September 27, 2013, 04:31:54 PM
Bro Mclinkin why wont you engage in a scientific discussion with us on evolution, if you are so confdent it is true then debate with us on the topic. (:
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 28, 2013, 03:41:59 PM
Bro Mclinkin why wont you engage in a scientific discussion with us on evolution, if you are so confdent it is true then debate with us on the topic. (:

Hey I am actually very willing to engage in a scientific discussion. I do like to see conspiracy theories of how people manipulated things to support evolution. That is just a desperate claim so you could delude yourself evolution is false. I view and write peer-reviewed journals and I don't manipulate and neither do those journals! Science discussion is my favorite type of discussion!

Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: abdullah on September 28, 2013, 04:15:02 PM
Awesome(: we never said that all evolutionists have done it in just that it has happened in the past and that it is possible that their are more cases that have gone unnoticed. Deluded? How about you learn some respect and acknowledge the fact that you might be wrong.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: Black Muslim on September 29, 2013, 06:26:04 AM
As said , I'll refrain .
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: abdullah on September 30, 2013, 06:06:53 PM
Bro mclinkin read this
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/09/nature_converge076811.html
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on September 30, 2013, 10:48:20 PM
Bro mclinkin read this
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/09/nature_converge076811.html

Thanks for the article. What I find absolutely ironic is that the Article sites a source that explains the phenomena of convergent evolution happening on a molecular basis, but then the article denies it by adhering to a probabilistic method. The only problem is in the source he posted, it showed how it happens in nature despite the probabilities against. The source it mentioned said that it found evidence of convergent evolution occurring and that it is surprising.

The article is talking about how certain features are related to the existence of a common ancestor - while other apparently similar features tend to develop along similar lines (even though there aren't any near common ancestors from which that trait was passed).

E.g. whales have similar features to fish - even though, they are actually descended from mammals, they developed a lot of features similar to a very different species. Or - that both bats and birds are capable of flight (they both have wings).

This doesn't disprove evolution - in fact - this strengthens it. What it implies is that given certain environmental factors - it is inevitable that certain traits will develop. A creature that spends lots of time in the water will naturally develop similar features even though they come from different lineages. For example, it means that it is natural for creatures of completely different lineages to develop echolocation and an acute sense of smell in environments where vision isn't as important. We should expect to see these features develop even on Alien planets given a similar environment. Remember how Allah said that he created ALL living things from liquid (water)? That means all living beings on all of the universe will exhibit like characteristics to us in that they require water or a liquid and most importantly had the same method of creation as us (evolution). So Aliens would have the same evolutionary steps in their formation just like us! And in an alien swamp, you would be certain that you would find creatures that evolve to resemble our fish (structure for gas circulation, streamlined for speed, utilization of energy etc.) even though they were independent from us (evolutionary speaking). So when you get things that evolve in a similar environment from different lineages with the the same features, that should actually strengthen the theory of evolution (this same thing is probably happening in Alien Earths). I cannot wait until we are able to find Alien life, Insh'allah we will be able to experience it.

I am certain though - that the genetic evidence will disprove this. The genes for creating bat wings are completely different from the genes that create bird wings. The function and appearance may be similar, the genes are not. The strongest evidence for evolution is genetics. So far, we see everything we expect to see if evolution is true by studying genetics.

Further, you must understand that evolution is not a proven theory 100%, you can take that from me or any other biologist. Evolution as a theory is enough to be considered a fact. Its like the Earth being round.  There are minor things that may need to updated, but ALL the evidence we have shows that the basic idea of evolution is a reality. The mechanisms may not be perfect and are subject to change when our molecular technology evolves (no pun intended). And what I find absolutely amazing, is that the Quran has hinted strongly at such concepts 1400 years ago, it is absolutely an amazing and mysterious feature of this amazing book.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: abdullah on September 30, 2013, 11:03:25 PM
Wait before we proceed on this discussion can i know what your view on evolution are? Do you believe in god guided evolution (Intelligent Design) or darwinian evolution (random mutations etc., etc.)
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on October 01, 2013, 12:11:52 AM
Wait before we proceed on this discussion can i know what your view on evolution are? Do you believe in god guided evolution (Intelligent Design) or darwinian evolution (random mutations etc., etc.)

I believe the Quran hints at the fact that Allah created the universe with everything intended. That means that Allah finely tuned the universe so that it allows for evolution to occur and therefore intelligent life to occur. So in a sense I believe that Allah guided evolution, but not by hand or one-by-one, but he pre-determined the process that started with the Big Bang. He let the mathematical coefficients work so that Earth would form at the right time and that humans and MANY other creatures like us form throughout the universe so that they may be tested. So Allah says "be" to the universe and its processes of forming life, and the universe "is". In the End Allah created the origin of the universe and then the made the constants of the universe create life.

If you notice the universe is tuned for life. He allowed the constants that created the universe work in such a way that they would form stars which produce many diverse elements to support life. I know it is a hard concept to understand, that is how powerful Allah is. Allah pre-determined everything to occur and he knows exactly which life would form and where. Notice how in the Quran, Allah says that everything that happens or will happen is already documented in a preserved tablet, that not a leaf falls unless it was already pre-determined or documented in that tablet.

Allah knew every step of evolution and where it would go. The Quran even tells us that mankind is not the final result of evolution.

There are also many hints in the Quran that Allah answered our prayers in a preserved tablet before he even created us.
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: abdullah on October 01, 2013, 01:41:53 AM
Do you not believe in free will?
Title: Re: I need your opinion please!
Post by: mclinkin94 on October 01, 2013, 08:16:17 PM
Do you not believe in free will?

Yes.