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MAIN BOARD (You must register to post) => GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS => Topic started by: IA on October 22, 2013, 03:37:08 PM

Title: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: IA on October 22, 2013, 03:37:08 PM
Brother mclinkin94, as I have seen from your posts, you accept evolution and reject hadiths. My intention is not to look like a smart person, but I have a sincere advice for you.
As for the evolution, I won't bring evidence against it or argue whether it's true or wrong. I want to show you a norm according to which you should judge if something is true or false. Just think for a moment: wouldn't it be more logical to believe that what the majority of muslims believe is true (I'm talkig about important beliefs, not small practical issues)? Wouldn't it be more logical to believe that the most of muslims are in the right path (again, I'm talking about important issues, because I agree that the most of ummah today are not like they should be)? If we read, we will see that the majority of muslims are sunnis (75-90%). If we believe that the most of the ummah are true believers, wouldn't it be more logical to reject evolution? Imagine the muslims from the time of Prophet, peace be upon him, until today being wrong about such an important belief, such as the way of creation. You may say that the early muslims didn't knew science. Yes, it's true. There were muslims, even islamic scholars who believed that Earth was flat etc, but those beliefs are unimportant that even the Quran doesn't talk directly about them. But, the issue of creation is different. You may say that the Quran supports evolution. I won't refute your claims, but do you know that using the Quran as the only source of argumentation can lead to disagreements on the most basic beliefs? Do you know that there are people who say alcohol is allowable in Islam? They also have proofs from the Quran, the difference is they interpret it another way (I have the link, but I don't want to share it). So, what we should do on such important issues is to see what Prophet Muhammad and his companions believed, then what scholars, sunni scholars say. This leads to the second belief, belief in hadiths.
The most illogical belief a muslim can have is to reject the hadiths. Brother, I don't want to insult you, but Islam is unimaginable without the Sunnah. Use the same standard here: wouldn't it be more logical to believe that hadiths were preserved, if muslim scholars for 1400 years believed they were? If we assume that evolution is true and reject hadiths, how can Allah let muslims in such errors for 1400 years?
Please brother, repent to Allah, I'm glad you are a convert, repent to Allah because if you believe in evolution and reject hadiths, according to all of the scholars of Islam, you are not a muslim. Does not Allah command us in the Quran to refer to scholars? If by their agreement, a person who rejects hadiths and believes in evolution is not a muslim, wouldn't it be more logical to stop believing on them? Please brother, this is something serious.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: The Canadian Atheist on October 22, 2013, 04:56:47 PM
I want to show you a norm according to which you should judge if something is true or false. Just think for a moment: wouldn't it be more logical to believe that what the majority of muslims believe is true (I'm talkig about important beliefs, not small practical issues)? Wouldn't it be more logical to believe that the most of muslims are in the right path (again, I'm talking about important issues, because I agree that the most of ummah today are not like they should be)? If we read, we will see that the majority of muslims are sunnis (75-90%). If we believe that the most of the ummah are true believers, wouldn't it be more logical to reject evolution?

Argumentum ad populum. Majority of people are Christians too, doesn't make it true.

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There were muslims, even islamic scholars who believed that Earth was flat etc, but those beliefs are unimportant that even the Quran doesn't talk directly about them.

Incorrect, the flat Earth myth was dispelled in 2000 B.C.

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if you believe in evolution and reject hadiths, according to all of the scholars of Islam, you are not a muslim.

No true Scotsman fallacy. He's a Muslim if he calls himself a Muslim. Who are you to decide? "according to all the scholars" Argument from authority. There is literally NOT one authority that possesses universal expertise in one field. Humans make mistakes.


You should just let him believe what he wishes. You got beliefs that require faith, he believes in logic (evolution).
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: IA on October 22, 2013, 05:53:05 PM
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Argumentum ad populum. Majority of people are Christians too, doesn't make it true.
I'm talking on level of Muslims. As for the entire humanity, yes, most of them are in loss, as Allah says in the Quran: By time, Indeed, mankind is in loss, Except for those who have believed and done righteous deeds and advised each other to truth and advised each other to patience. (103:1-3)
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Incorrect, the flat Earth myth was dispelled in 2000 B.C.
Read about Flat Earth in Wikipedia.
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No true Scotsman fallacy. He's a Muslim if he calls himself a Muslim. Who are you to decide?
I don't want to offend you, but you don't have an idea about the islamic law. You can't be a Muslim just by calling yourself a Muslim. In fact, who are you to determine that someone can be a Muslim just by calling himself a Muslim? There are rules.
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"according to all the scholars" Argument from authority. There is literally NOT one authority that possesses universal expertise in one field. Humans make mistakes.
Allah says in the Quran: O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. (4:59)
If Allah commands us to refer to scholars, then even if they are wrong we won't be judged or punished because we acted upon the law, so the scholars consensus "possesses universal expertise" acording to the Quran, even if they might be wrong.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on October 22, 2013, 10:19:26 PM
Hello this is going to be a comprehensive post. So please take your time in reading.

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Brother mclinkin94, as I have seen from your posts, you accept evolution and reject hadiths. My intention is not to look like a smart person, but I have a sincere advice for you.

For the record, Yes: I accept evolution due to a strong Quranic basis and the immense scientific evidence. After debate with the hadiths with other Muslims (yes, they won that debate with hadiths :) ), I have to admit that it would be dishonest to reject all hadiths. Therefore I support some of them, but I do not base my trust on them due to being intellectually honest. I say that some of them possibly have some truth to them--like the Bible. To my knowledge, this is the most reasonable opinion and I would say that many honest Muslims would have to agree.


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As for the evolution, I won't bring evidence against it or argue whether it's true or wrong. I want to show you a norm according to which you should judge if something is true or false. Just think for a moment: wouldn't it be more logical to believe that what the majority of muslims believe is true (I'm talkig about important beliefs, not small practical issues)? Wouldn't it be more logical to believe that the most of muslims are in the right path (again, I'm talking about important issues, because I agree that the most of ummah today are not like they should be)? If we read, we will see that the majority of muslims are sunnis (75-90%). If we believe that the most of the ummah are true believers, wouldn't it be more logical to reject evolution?

The majority or minority of a belief does not interest me. The majority belief is Christianity, does that mean it is right? The majority belief back then was that the Earth is flat, does that mean that it is right? I support beliefs in which I think are rational and in which I can support through being intellectually honest. In which case I believe in Islam and I support evolution. It would be intellectual dishonesty to deny the Quranic support of the progressive creation of mankind.

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Imagine the muslims from the time of Prophet, peace be upon him, until today being wrong about such an important belief, such as the way of creation. You may say that the early muslims didn't knew science. Yes, it's true. There were muslims, even islamic scholars who believed that Earth was flat etc, but those beliefs are unimportant that even the Quran doesn't talk directly about them. But, the issue of creation is different.

I think you just proved me right by saying that Early muslims believed the Earth was flat and that the sun moved around the Earth :) The Quran is meant to support 7th century belief and modern belief without contradicting either belief in which case it is a requirement for it to support beliefs like the Earth being flat and round. the sun moving around the Earth, the earth moving around the sun simultaneously. The same can be said about evolution.

Point 1: If God were to give a revelation to 7th century nomads it has to compel them and has to give them things to reflect upon so they believe in the scripture
Point 2: If that revelation is the final revelation and is supposed to compel people of the future, then that revelation cannot contradict reality that future humans will discover
Point 3: Therefore, the Quran MUST affirm 7th century belief without contradicting science.

And it must be sufficiently vague so that it doesn't compel those whose hearts are closed. (watch this video on this topic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj4DS_QQYfo )

So yes, you find that in the Quran many words are purposely avoided or the Quran used alternate words so it could affirm 7th century beleif without contradicting (but supporting) science. So the Quranic scientific miracles have to be vague enough so they don't compel those whose hearts are closed and has to (at the same time) NOT contradict 7th century belief.

Here is one example:

(And he is the one who created the night, daylight, sun and the moon, all swimming in an orbit). (Quran, The Prophets: 33).

Notice how precise this verse was in its language at supporting 7th century belief (that the sun/moon move around the Earth) and modern belief (that the sun and the moon are both swimming in an orbit). You can see this throughout the Quran.

So in conclusion, the Quran is meant to support both beliefs. We are not to hold just 7th century belief like the creationist account especially if the Quran supports the evolutionary belief as well :)

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You may say that the Quran supports evolution. I won't refute your claims, but do you know that using the Quran as the only source of argumentation can lead to disagreements on the most basic beliefs?

I will summarize my examples: (these are only brief and superficial summaries, my study on this topic has been very extensive)

(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.
(Quran 71:14) God created you in diverse stages


Did the Quran mention the stages? Of course it did, It mentioned the Embryological stages (that I am sure you know about) and the Evolutionary stages.

(Quran 32:7) Allah is He who has made everything He created BETTER, and He began the creation of the human (being) out of clay--> He made everything he created better. Evolution seems to explain the mechanism of perfecting God's creation. (Clay is a product of wet earth-Exactly what you are made of: Water and Earth.

What's even more fascinating about this verses is that Allah say he made all of his creation better from the original and he began the creation of a human. This verse is hinting at a connection. A connection that human beings were made through a process of evolving better than the original creation.

(Quran 32:--8) Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

^This verse comes right after the previous one. So AFTER human beings BEGAN forming,, our posterity comes from an extract of semen. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.

(Quran 32:9) Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

^AFTER Allah made sexual reproduction, he proportioned us and given us vision/hearing/consciousness.

Allah BEGINS the process of creation, lets sexual reproduction happen, and then we get proportioned and achieve higher consciousness. Aren't these verses clear in their support of gradual creation of humans? These are the stages that Quran mentions in 71:14 (as well as the embryological stages).

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(Quran 35:11) And Allah did create you from dust; then from a reproductive fluid; then He made you in pairs

^Here the Quran makes a very important point. This verse is stating the process of creation. We were first created from dust (a basic compound) then we were created from a reproductive fluid (This is signifying the creation of sexual reproduction), after sexual reproduction: we were created in pairs-male and female. This shows that Adam and Eve (the first humans of our kind that were sexually isolated from the other humans which we were descended), were created after the reproductive fluid. This also shows that the first humans that were like us were created from a reproductive fluid and not instantly as creationists believe. The process of formation involved simple compounds, then sexual reproduction was formed to allow us to form.

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(Quran 64:3) He designed you and perfected your design

^Human form went through a process of betterment or perfection. If this verse wanted to say that humans have a perfect design, it would have not been worded this way, thus, this verse is showing that humans were designed as something and our design (or form) was perfected.

(Quran 76:28) We created them and strengthened their forms. And when we please. We will substitute the likes of them by a change.

^Here, Allah has given us stronger forms. He created us and made us better. And when he pleases, he will substitute us by a creation with a change! How did God strengthen human's make? Could it be through evolution? If this verse should be interpreted otherwise, then why does it not simply state, 'It is We who have created them in a strong make,' instead of implying two separate steps and a time lapse? The same argument pertains to one translation of the following verse: 'He...designed you and (time lapse) perfected your design...' (64:3)
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This is compelling evidence. If you chose to make excuses to these verses alone (there are many other examples), then you are intellectually dishonest.

The Quran is clear that ALL humans are made from Nutfah, that includes Adam:

(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance (Alaq or embryo).

(Quran 16:4) He created man from a sperm-drop;


^Unfortunately, to say that Adam is the exception would be making an excuse that manipulates the clear Quran. You must agree that Adam was created from a nutfah (reproductive fluid). 

(Quran 6.133) If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to WHATEVER He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people.


Allah can get rid of Us and make another creature succeed just as he produced US from another people!

Note: The Quran specifically uses the word "Whatever" or "What" ("ma" in Arabic ما). This Arabic word "ma" cannot refer to humans; this word is strictly reserved for non-humans (the Arabic word that does refer to humans is "men من", meaning "who" or "whoever" but it was not used here). This verse says that if God wishes He can make our descendants nonhuman just like our ancestors. Further this verse is referring to ALL of mankind (as Quran 6:130 shows in context). So all of mankind was produced from descendants of another people (hominids).

To further Clarify this point:

(Quran 43:60) And if we will, We could make angels from amongst you (minkum), succeeding each other on the earth.

^Again, a reference to Allah destroying Mankind through letting something else (angels) come amongst us and succeed each other on the Earth just as we (humans) came from another creature and succeeded after them (6:133).


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Do you know that there are people who say alcohol is allowable in Islam? They also have proofs from the Quran, the difference is they interpret it another way (I have the link, but I don't want to share it). So, what we should do on such important issues is to see what Prophet Muhammad and his companions believed, then what scholars, sunni scholars say. This leads to the second belief, belief in hadiths.

Unfortunately, there are some people who say alcohol is allowable in Islam. that is because of excuse making and manipulation of the verse that clearly says NO intoxicants. I would say that it would be manipulation of the Quran to say that Adam was not created through a process or his creation didn't involve a reproductive fluid.


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The most illogical belief a muslim can have is to reject the hadiths.

I think, considering how many of them contradict each other including the Quran, that it would be illogical to unconditionally accept hadith. Rather, you have to do a systematic study on them. Like we said before, the Quran has multi-layered meanings, some for the people who gain knowledge in the future as the Quran states in 3:7.

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Brother, I don't want to insult you, but Islam is unimaginable without the Sunnah. Use the same standard here: wouldn't it be more logical to believe that hadiths were preserved, if muslim scholars for 1400 years believed they were? If we assume that evolution is true and reject hadiths, how can Allah let muslims in such errors for 1400 years?

Yes brother, at one point I declined all hadiths, but now I do not  decline all of them. it wouldn't be logical to believe that hadiths were preserved, because they are not and contain contradictions. http://asimiqbal2nd.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/contradictions.pdf


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Please brother, repent to Allah, I'm glad you are a convert, repent to Allah because if you believe in evolution and reject hadiths, according to all of the scholars of Islam, you are not a muslim. Does not Allah command us in the Quran to refer to scholars? If by their agreement, a person who rejects hadiths and believes in evolution is not a muslim, wouldn't it be more logical to stop believing on them? Please brother, this is something serious.

I do repent to Allah and pray for guidance. There isn't a bone in my body that rejects the Quranic support for evolution. I have studied it and I came at it.

I came to Islam the same way, through reasonable rational intellectual honest understanding. I cannot manipulate the Quran to support instant creationism and expect to remain intellectually honest.

As you have seen before, I have debated on the topic of Hadiths. I have found my error and I have corrected it. that is because the most important quality of any belief is intellectual honesty. I am willing to change my beliefs because I remain honest with my beliefs. Islam is an extremely powerful religion and it is absolutely beautiful. I would hate to see it manipulated just because of some unwilling scholars or Muslims.

This is something serious, my beliefs hold. The Quranic account for creation with a process is explicit, the only way to deny it is through direct manipulation, adhering to faulty hadiths, excuse making or intellectual dishonesty.

I want to make it clear that irrespective of my support for hadith or not. There is uncertainty as Allah did not promise to protect non-quranic hadiths, instead he asks us to produce our proofs first. But regardless, I still follow the Sunnah to the best of my ability because there is still uncertainty as to whether the prophet said it or not. I want to make it clear though that I follow the Sunnah that don't contradict the Quran. The current method of prayer is fine. The Quran mentioned prayer 3 times a day, but it doesn't hurt me to pray 5 times. etc.

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Allah says in the Quran: O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. (4:59)
If Allah commands us to refer to scholars, then even if they are wrong we won't be judged or punished because we acted upon the law, so the scholars consensus "possesses universal expertise" acording to the Quran, even if they might be wrong

I wanted to add something to your understanding of that verse. Allah commands us to refer to those in authority over us. and if we disagree over anything we refer it to Allah and to the Messenger. Currently, the messenger is not with us--so the part of the verse dealing with the messenger is not applicable to us--this was applicable to those who lived at the time of the prophet--(The Quran was designed for all times and places so it has verses applicable to us and verses not applicable to us--like the war verses about the meccans).

Notice that the Quran does not prohibit disagreement with the authorities. If we disagree with the authorities (whether they are military authorities or scholars), we must refer to Allah, through what?

-Through prayer
-Through his revelation (the Quran)

So if scholars and I disagree, we refer our understanding with the Quran, and that is exactly what I am doing now.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on October 23, 2013, 07:25:57 AM
I'll say it flat out , Atheist . This is none of your bloody damn business . Who asked you ? Who mentioned your name ? Do all Atheists love to stick their noses in whatever doesn't address them ?!

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Argumentum ad populum. Majority of people are Christians too, doesn't make it true.
Ad populum or whatever , talk with evidence or don't . And he clearly didn't use it as the only argument but what to do , your eyes seem have something wrong with them .

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Incorrect, the flat Earth myth was dispelled in 2000 B.C.
Say what ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

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No true Scotsman fallacy. He's a Muslim if he calls himself a Muslim. Who are you to decide? "according to all the scholars" Argument from authority. There is literally NOT one authority that possesses universal expertise in one field. Humans make mistakes.
Indeed , similar birds are attracted to each other . And the followers of false ways agree with each other . Yes , we CAN say if someone is Muslim or not . Who on Earth are YOU to say we can't ? Who are you to talk about our religion like you know it ? If someone says that there is no proof of Allah then we don't need your permission to say he's completely going against Islam . When someone says that we're cousins of apes then we don't need your permission to say he's defying Islam . And we clearly don't need your permission to say that whoever rejects Sunnah is defying Islam .
So mind your bloody business . Go watch TV or surf the internet somewhere else . You believe you came to life for nothing and will die for nothing so act according to it and leave the believers be .

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You should just let him believe what he wishes. You got beliefs that require faith, he believes in logic (evolution).
Logic my foot . You're the last to talk about logic . Faith you say ? Do you even comprehend what faith is ? If you think that faith is belief with no evidence , then again , that's your bloody business . Our belief is based on logical evidence . So get out of your shell and stop letting others think for you the same way you accuse us of .

And , linckin , check your YouTube inbox .
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: QuranSearchCom on October 23, 2013, 02:32:30 PM
As'salamu Alaikum everyone,

On the topic of evolution, should we not qualify what type of evolution are we talking about?  There is usually a mix on what the word is meant to be by the person.  From my experience, there are two meanings that the word implies when used by people:

1-  Humans have changed throughout the ages.  They've always been humans in essence, but they've changed and transformed as time passed. 

2-  Humans originated from animals (fish, monkies, etc...).

For #1, Islam supports it 100%.  Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/adam_90_feet_tall.htm.

By the way, we are witnessing our bodies evolving in our age today.  The reason why you pluck out your wisdom teeth is because your jaw is no longer big enough to house all of your teeth.  We will eventually be naturally born without them.  This of course may/will take millions of years.

I hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: abdullah on October 23, 2013, 05:27:22 PM
I think yall should watch these videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBiqdvKlRAw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyYUenRhSRQ
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: IA on October 24, 2013, 06:23:00 PM
Your method of using just your intellect to determine what is right and what is wrong, to interpret the Quran and to judge whether a hadith is true or not, is not islamic. To show you the weakness of our minds, just take the philosophers as an example. Didn't all of them use the intellect? Didn't all of their conclusions come after a long time thinking, using logic, etc? The answer is yes of course. But, were their conclusions the same? Absolutely not. Perhaps we have conclusions as much as philosophers. This is the result of using just your intellect and making it independent. You may say that "I make conclusion using the Quran". I said in my earlier post: by using the Quran as the only source, people will come to completely different conclusions. When I took the example of those people making alcohol permissible using arguments from the Quran, you said their arguments were weak, or they didn't have arguments at all. The same way, those verses that you regard as arguments of evolution being true, for me are not even arguments and using them to prove evolution is ridiculous. Do you know that there are people who say homosexuality is allowed in the Quran? In the same way, you may say their arguments are weak, but for them they are strong. So what you are doind by trying to interpret the Quran, is just following your desires. Do you know that the main reason why there are so many sects within Islam, is misinterpretation of the Quran, using "the desire-follower intellect". You said "We have to do a systematic study of hadiths"!? There are people who can't learn propely to pray, because of time, knowledge etc. If everyone would become a self-confessed scholar of Islam, there would be a chaos. Everone will follow what he thinks is true and people will fall in confusion. Whom to follow? I just can't believe our God, the only God, Allah, can let people in such a pain. That's why he said:

 O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. (4:59)

You said that the Prophet is not alive now, so the rule of refering to the Messenger is not applicable to us. You have to understand one thing: when the Quran talks about something, even if it is history, even if it is refering to Prophet Muhammad or his compaions, no matter what, it is refering to us too. The Quran is for all times. So in this case, by refering to the Messeger, it means refering to his Sunnah, to his hadiths. The disagreement which Quran talks about - is not any disagreement by every person who only wants to follow his desires. Example: in Islam, it is not allowed to shake the hand with a women that is permisible for you to marry. I can come out and say: "I disagree with the scholars. I don't accept the hadith that says this thing is a sin, because the Quran says we should be kind. So if someone wants to shake the had with me, I won't refuse." Is this an argument? Again, it might look weak to you, but for the one making it, it is extremely strong. So, can everyone disagree with scholars about whatever he wants? Of course not. What the verse is talking about, is when there is not a consensus about something between scholars, or between a large group of people, or between two schools of thought etc. So our duty then is to refer to the Quran and the Sunnah, and to accept the consensus arrived by the scholars. If there is no consensus, to follow that which we think is more logical (here the logic comes in!). Here is what Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi says in his english tafsir, explaining this verse:

Hence, if a dispute arises about any matter between the Muslims or between the rulers and the ruled, they should turn to the Qur'an and the Sunnah for a decision and they should all submit to the decision. (http://www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/4/index.html#sdfootnote90sym)

Is there disagreement between scholars or people regarding evolution? No! So our duty is to obey those in authority among us.

You said Allah did not promise to protect unquranic hadiths. Again, wrong.

Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian. (15:9)

The word for Quran here is "Dhikra" which includes both the Quran and the insipration given to the Prophet. That's why some of the translators translated it as:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). Yusuf Ali

Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian. Shakir

Here is was Islamic-Awareness says about this:
The promise made by Allah(SWT) in Qur'an 15:9 is obviously fulfilled in the undisputed purity of the Qur'anic text throughout the fourteen centuries since its revelation. However, what is often forgotten by many Muslims is that the divine promise also includes, by necessity, the Sunnah of the Prophet(P), because the Sunnah is the practical example of the implementation of the Qur'anic guidance, the wisdom taught to the Prophet(P) along with the scripture, and neither the Qur'an nor the Sunnah can be understood correctly without the other. (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/hadsciences.html)

You said the Quran tries to support every belief. The Quran speaks the truth, despite it being wrong for someone or true for someone else. To prove this, I will use your example.

(And he is the one who created the night, daylight, sun and the moon, all swimming in an orbit). (Quran, The Prophets: 33).

Some decades before, the Sun moving was considered a scientific error. Now we know that it also moves (I think around itself, I'm not sure but I have read it somewhere and also Dr. Zakir Naik talks about it). So the Quran is the truth, even if it may not seem to someone. It doesn't neccesarily need to support every belief.

Allah says several times in the Quran tha the majority of people are wrong. But this does not apply when it comes to something that is consensus between muslims.

Who can believe in something so controversial such as evolution, and even reject hadiths, when for 1400 years there were great scholars who didn't sleep at night just studying the religion of Allah who didn't do that. It is interensting how no one of them came to the conclusion that the hadiths should be rejected or that evolution is the way Allah created us. Now, some muslims, using their "intellect" want to prove those great scholars wrong (may Allah have mercy on them and reward them for their great work).

Using your intellect to understand the Quran is wrong, and as I said, it was the main cause for so many sects to be formed. The solution is clear: humbling yourself, obeying the scholars, accepting the hadiths. This is the true Islam, which creates no confusion among people. I would never believe that Allah will leave such important thing unclear to us. I will respond to your arguments for evolution in the next post insha'Allah.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: abdullah on October 25, 2013, 12:06:24 AM
Assalamualykum brother
Where are you getting this idea from that we are not supposed to use our intellect when looking at the Qur'an.The Quran tells us over 70 times to use our reason and intellect.
It also tells to ponder over its verses. Not only that but it also challenges us to find an error in it. So your statement is obviously false. It is this view of Islam that got muslims where they are today. If I were to switch the word "Qur'an" with "Bible" in your post I honestly wouldnt be able to tell the difference between you and a fundamentalist christian preacher. Why would I follow anybody blindly, when the Qur'an condemns people for doing the same thing. The Qur'an condemns anybody for being a blind sheep. Your sects argument is fallacious, because you don't realize that the best way to destroy these sects is with intellectual arguments, not by telling people to follow scholars blindly. I agree with you in that reading your positions in to the Quran is wrong. I dont understand what your problem is with rejecting ahadith that contradict with science, even Imam al Ghazali said that any hadith that contradicts with science must be discarded.
I don't even believe in evolution but i'm still going to refute your argument against it. You say that just because the scholars don't believe in evolution It must not be true. this is fallacious reasoning because the majority of the scholars aren't even familiar with the evidence for and against evolution. Anyways most scholars have authority over fiqh, fatawaa, etc... but they do not have valid authority over science because they dont even study it.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on October 25, 2013, 06:19:13 AM
I'm really worried about Muslims in America and Europe . Let's make some things clear , I believe what Ahmeti meant is to not get arrogant and think you can judge Quran based on your own intellect . If Quran says something clearly like that Jews and Christians and anyone not Muslim would go to hell , then we surely can't agree with someone who says that they go to paradise depending on the argument that Islam is merciful ! There are things which can never be interrupted differently . And using twisted acrobatic explanations on them doesn't change that fact . Quran and Sunnah don't leave any kind of room for doubting the fact that Allah created Adam peace upon him by gathering different kinds of sand from Earth and then formed him into the shape of a human and he was left for a while and then a soul was blown into him . Case closed . That is why we never accept evolution . As for its so called evidences , after reading a load of articles about faking evidence and using anything unrelated for the sake of it , I just realized that it's an ideology more than science . And why would I believe what they say just like that ? Is it because they are "scientists" and I should just follow what they say and never question it ? What's the difference between that and following scholars blindly ? The point is that there are things basic which no one can deny wither a scholar or not .
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: abdullah on October 25, 2013, 08:51:04 AM
Assalamualaykum
I think y'all are confusing using your intellect with following your desires. These people that come up with these nonsense arguments are not using their intellect they are following their desires. It is not right to just say follow the scholars and don't use your intellect. That is a cop-out, this type of thinking comes from cowards who are too scared too use their minds. You have to destroy those absurd interpretations by using intellect. On the topic of evolution, why try to make Islam incompatible with it, this drives people away from Islam. This causes them to think that Islam is just another christianity with their crazy creationists. We should always try our best to reconcile science with the Qur'an. We shouldn't say that the Qur'an supports a theory, but we should that it is not contradictory to it.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: abdullah on October 25, 2013, 09:18:35 AM
Brother mclinkin the quran doesnt sap pray 3 times a a day it just mentions the names of  3 salaat. On another note, the ayah that says "we left nothing out of the book" is not referring to the Qur'an but to the book where Allah wrote down everything that would happen.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: IA on October 25, 2013, 09:54:44 AM
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Assalamualykum brother
Where are you getting this idea from that we are not supposed to use our intellect when looking at the Qur'an.The Quran tells us over 70 times to use our reason and intellect.
It also tells to ponder over its verses.

Wa alaykum salaam brother,
Yes, you are right. The Quran tells us to use our reason and intellect, in order to come to the conclusion that God exists (by pondering over his creation etc), that the Quran is a book revealed by him (due to its uniqueness, scientific and linguistic miracles etc) and that Muhammad was his messenger, not to give fatwas.
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Not only that but it also challenges us to find an error in it. So your statement is obviously false.

This is directed specifically to the non-believers. By not being able to find any error on it, it will become clear to them that this books is indeed from God. And again, challenging us to find errors does not mean it allows us to give fatwas.
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It is this view of Islam that got muslims where they are today.
The only reason why Muslims are where they are, is because they are not following their religion.
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If I were to switch the word "Qur'an" with "Bible" in your post I honestly wouldnt be able to tell the difference between you and a fundamentalist christian preacher. Why would I follow anybody blindly, when the Qur'an condemns people for doing the same thing. The Qur'an condemns anybody for being a blind sheep. Your sects argument is fallacious, because you don't realize that the best way to destroy these sects is with intellectual arguments, not by telling people to follow scholars blindly.
The concept of blind following is not that simple. I have watched a lof of lectures on this topic. There are rules. Remeber, the majority of the ummah is not able to study their religion, so the scholars of Ahlus-Sunah allowed blind following. As for the muslims who can study, they should know the argument. So, we should ask for an argument when a scholar gives a fatwa. After that, even if it may not seem to us like a strong argument (which generally happens due to our own desires) we are required to follow it. Don't you follow a math formula blindly, even if you don't have a verification of it? Yes, because you know mathematicians studied it for centuries. If a scholar is wrong, we won't be punished about that because we acted according to the Quran (4:59). If there is more than one opinion (I'm talking about opinion given by schools of thought, scholars and not any opinion of any person) we should use our logic and follow that which we think is right. The first source for giving fatwas is the Quran. However, the Quran may be misinterpreted, so we should see what Prophet Muhammad and his companions thought of a verse. Example: the Quran (32:4) says that Allah is above the throne. Different sects tried to interpret this on different ways. So what the scholars did, was taking the opinion of Prophet Muhammad and the companions regarding this verse, and this means that the second source is authentic Sunnah or hadiths. The third is the consensus of scholars. If there is no consensus among some scholars about an issue, they should go back and see whether there was consensus among the sahabas, tabiins and tabi-tabiins (the first three generations of muslims) about the same issue. If there is, they should follow it; if there is not, now the intellect comes in. You can never destroy sects with intellectual arguments, because their arguments are also a product of their intellect, so there will be an endless debate. What they should do is return back to the Quran, the Sunnah and the beliefs of the majority of Muslims.
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I agree with you in that reading your positions in to the Quran is wrong. I dont understand what your problem is with rejecting ahadith that contradict with science, even Imam al Ghazali said that any hadith that contradicts with science must be discarded.
A hadith which contradicts the Quran or established scientific facts, of course is not true, and that's why we have scholars who clasify them as correct, weak hadiths etc. Don't forget that something may seem as a scientific error, but it is not. I took the example of Sun rotating. It seemed as an error some decades ago, but today is a fact. The same way, a hadith may look like it contradicts with science, but we should not be fast on judging. So we Muslims who are not scholars should be silent about those hadiths and let the scholars do their work on classifying them.
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I don't even believe in evolution but i'm still going to refute your argument against it. You say that just because the scholars don't believe in evolution It must not be true. this is fallacious reasoning because the majority of the scholars aren't even familiar with the evidence for and against evolution.
I just can't believe an important belief such as the creation of men will be left unclear by Allah. The reason why I think we should follow scholars in something which is consensus is because they studied Islam their entire life, and it is irrational to believe that for 1400 years Allah let them believe something that is wrong. Yes, for other things, especially with those that have to do with science and which are not so important for a muslim to believe on them or not, it is not necessary to follow a scholar. I took the example of the Flath Earth earlier.
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Anyways most scholars have authority over fiqh, fatawaa, etc... but they do not have valid authority over science because they dont even study it.
You misunderstood me. I didn't say that the scholars studied the theory of Darwin and they found proofs against it. What I said was that they were not able to find any connection between this theory and the Quranic verses. They studied the Quran and all of them, for 1400 years believed in intelligent design.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: IA on October 25, 2013, 10:06:06 AM
Assalamualaykum
On the topic of evolution, why try to make Islam incompatible with it, this drives people away from Islam. This causes them to think that Islam is just another christianity with their crazy creationists. We should always try our best to reconcile science with the Qur'an. We shouldn't say that the Qur'an supports a theory, but we should that it is not contradictory to it.
I just can't understand you. If the Quran is incompatible with something, that's all, we should not be ashamed. In fact, Islam is incompatible with a lot of things today in West. In Islam, it is reqired for women to cover their hair. Just because the majority of women today don't cover their hair, does that mean we should try to reinterpret the islamic law and make this thing permissible? Also, the Quran mentions jinns, angels etc and a lot of atheists see those things as stupid. Does that mean we should reject them? Sorry brother, but you are totally wrong here. If the Quran supports a theory, we should say it with pride and defend that theory. If the Quran contradicts a theory, even if it is acceptable by science at the moment, we should reject it and that's all. There are a lot of things unknown to science (Paradise, Hell etc).
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: IA on October 25, 2013, 10:23:25 AM
mclinkin94, I don't have time at the moment to respond to your article about evolution being supported by the Quran. But, in short words: the Quran in some places tells us that the man was created from dust and in some others from a liquid. To make it clear, the Quran says that it was Adam who was created from dust, which means that whenever the Quran talks about people being created from a liquid etc is talking about other people: “And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: ‘I am going to create a human (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud.  So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.” (Quran 38:71-72).
When the Quran talks about stages, it talk about the stages of forming the dust or stages of embryo. This article refutes everything that has to do with evolution in the Quran: http://www.qurandeniesdarwinism.com/4.html
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: IA on October 25, 2013, 10:33:06 AM
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on October 25, 2013, 11:29:24 AM
First of all , what I meant was something like someone denying Hadith which says that the moon was split by the will of Allah because he thinks it's irrational !! Is that an argument ? So here , he's using his own mind , but he doesn't realize that his mind can't comprehend everything . Only arrogants think that humans can gain all the knowledge there is . Those are the same who think that one day humans can become Gods . As for the mentioned example , how on Earth does he decide it's irrational ? We see stars exploding and Holes sucking everything and leave absolutely no trace of it , we see many extraordinary planets and satellites and whatsoever . Would he say that it's irrational because he can't understand it with his intellect ? That is the point and meaning .

As for the topic of following or using your intellect , there are things which we should really not talk about while we don't know about them or studied . Some guy who doesn't memorize a single Surah in Quran can't up and say that eating pork is OK ! There are things which are discussed between scholars and they have differences on them , each one has a possible rational interpretations for a sign or Hadith . So a commoner here who has scarce knowledge shouldn't argue about what he doesn't know . I doubt he'd understand what he's talking about !
And allow me to give you a piece of information . The differences between scholars are for some reasons . A scholar might say that fasting six says in Shawwal - after Ramadan - isn't in Islam because he didn't know any Hadith or sign saying so . However , if he hears of a correct Hadith about it then he will admit it . So the differences are actually few and are in minor matters like eating manners .
And back on track , I said that someone who doesn't have knowledge shouldn't talk about what he doesn't understand . On the other hand , there are things which NO ONE can be spared of accusation for not knowing them . We all know that Islam is based on Believing that Allah is the only God and that Muhammad peace upon him is his servant and prophet , praying , charity , fasting Ramadan , and doing pilgrimage for the one able to . So if someone comes up and says that fasting Ramadan is not a pillar of Islam then there is absolutely no way we can give him the excuse of having a personal opinion !! That's one of the reasons why the Islamic nation is where it is now . Look at all those ignorant individuals who appear on TV dressing in fancy suits . One says that a boy can have a girlfriend and vise versa , another says it's OK to not pray , a third says that veiling one's body - man or woman - is not mandatory and there is no such thing in Islam , a fourth says that you can believe in other Gods and still be a Muslims !! So the point is , there can be no difference in basic and mandatory things . Whoever does is clearly defying Islam .

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On the topic of evolution, why try to make Islam incompatible with it, this drives people away from Islam. This causes them to think that Islam is just another christianity with their crazy creationists. We should always try our best to reconcile science with the Qur'an. We shouldn't say that the Qur'an supports a theory, but we should that it is not contradictory to it.
And that's the point when it comes to evolution ! Quran and Sunnah are clear about it . And do I need to repeat the story of creating father Adam peace upon him in paradise and what happened with Iblees ? As for the scientific part , there is absolutely no shred of evidence for evolution . And we are not to alter what Quran says in order to please pseudo-scientists . If we would , then we should agree with those who say that we were created by aliens or that the universe came out of nothing with no cause . And what's with calling creationists crazy ? What is it that they say ? If just saying that Allah created creatures and not some random ridiculous meaningless process is crazy then what's sane ? That's unless they say something else .
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on October 25, 2013, 04:23:57 PM
Hello brother:

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Your method of using just your intellect to determine what is right and what is wrong, to interpret the Quran and to judge whether a hadith is true or not, is not islamic. To show you the weakness of our minds, just take the philosophers as an example. Didn't all of them use the intellect? Didn't all of their conclusions come after a long time thinking, using logic, etc? The answer is yes of course. But, were their conclusions the same? Absolutely not. Perhaps we have conclusions as much as philosophers. This is the result of using just your intellect and making it independent. You may say that "I make conclusion using the Quran". I said in my earlier post: by using the Quran as the only source, people will come to completely different conclusions.

I don't agree with this at all. I believe the Quran has stressed using our intellect and gaining evidence-it is mentioned there in nearly ALL chapters! Just because of the fact that conclusions can be right or wrong, does not make all conclusions wrong. Philosophers have also made many right approaches to understanding. The logical understanding and the philosophy of science are the most successful so far.

So conclusions can be right or wrong, and you must examine them scientifically. The Quran highlights this in one verse and it says those with knowledge may understand the unclear verses of the Quran, but the true translation is only known by Allah.

(Quran 3:7) It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

So there are verses that are precise, the alcohol verse is precise and it is the specific verse, There is no debate there. Allah's feelings towards homosexuality is also precise and clear in the Quran. There are verses in the Quran not like that, those verses are primarily the ones that focus on science! If you look at brother Osama's website (answeringChristiantiy) you notice that he applies scientific knowledge to show you the hidden scientific meaning of verses! Brother Osama is one of those with knowledge according to that verse. But even still, the true translation is from Allah!


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When I took the example of those people making alcohol permissible using arguments from the Quran, you said their arguments were weak, or they didn't have arguments at all. The same way, those verses that you regard as arguments of evolution being true, for me are not even arguments and using them to prove evolution is ridiculous.

That is because I have read their arguments. You read my arguments that show evolution and you scrutinize them, that is how we determine if it makes sense, that is how science and philosophy work  :)...Question your beliefs!

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So what you are doind by trying to interpret the Quran, is just following your desires. 

Maybe, but you have to examine their arguments irrespective of their desires

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Do you know that the main reason why there are so many sects within Islam, is misinterpretation of the Quran, using "the desire-follower intellect".

There are many sects because of hadiths and yes people do interpret the Quran to their desires, but that doesn't mean that their interpretation is wrong, you must examine the interpretation itself and show them it is wrong.


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You said "We have to do a systematic study of hadiths"!? There are people who can't learn propely to pray, because of time, knowledge etc. If everyone would become a self-confessed scholar of Islam, there would be a chaos. Everone will follow what he thinks is true and people will fall in confusion. Whom to follow? I just can't believe our God, the only God, Allah, can let people in such a pain. That's why he said:

 O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. (4:59)

I'm not saying to become a self-confessed scholar of Islam. I am saying utilize scholarly sources like Quranic interpreations and Quranic Arabic and arive at a conclusion. I like to think freely, I don't think the way the scholars want me to think, I refuse to commit shirk--the scholars are not perfect nor are they divine.

Again, you must examine the quotes itself.


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You said that the Prophet is not alive now, so the rule of refering to the Messenger is not applicable to us. You have to understand one thing: when the Quran talks about something, even if it is history, even if it is refering to Prophet Muhammad or his compaions, no matter what, it is refering to us too. The Quran is for all times.

Of course it is for us, but there are some verses not applicable to us. Like the verses on prisoners of war :P. So the Quran is made for all times and places. So it has verses applicable to 7th century people and us. For example verse 55:33 didn't apply to the prophet Muhammad, he could go into space :)

 
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So in this case, by refering to the Messeger, it means refering to his Sunnah, to his hadiths.

That's assuming that Hadiths are perfect and the scholars are infallible. I do not do this. I know that hadiths could have some truth in them, but, I shall not trust them. many many many times have they proven to be false.

The disagreement which Quran talks about - is not any disagreement by every person who only wants to follow his desires. So, can everyone disagree with scholars about whatever he wants? Of course not. What the verse is talking about, is when there is not a consensus about something between scholars, or between a large group of people, or between two schools of thought etc. So our duty then is to refer to the Quran and the Sunnah, and to accept the consensus arrived by the scholars. If there is no consensus, to follow that which we think is more logical (here the logic comes in!). Here is what Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi says in his english tafsir, explaining this verse:

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Hence, if a dispute arises about any matter between the Muslims or between the rulers and the ruled, they should turn to the Qur'an and the Sunnah for a decision and they should all submit to the decision. (http://www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/4/index.html#sdfootnote90sym)

No, you turn to the Quran for any decisions and ALL decision! And if there is a problem with the rulers, go back to the Quran and ensure they are doing it right.

Yes, but I don't like how you keep stressing that the majority rule is right in the scholars. That is not true, not shall it ever be true. The majority rule according to the world scholars is Christianity.

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Is there disagreement between scholars or people regarding evolution? No! So our duty is to obey those in authority among us.

Again, you adhere to a majority thing. It is a logical fallacy. You must go into my arguments and see the support the Quran has, rather than adhering to what the scholars say!

It just takes one verse: (Quran 64:3) He designed you and perfected your design 

That's it, there is no reason for any other debate. You were designed as something and that form was perfected. Not an instant creation!


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You said Allah did not promise to protect unquranic hadiths. Again, wrong.

Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian. (15:9)

The word for Quran here is "Dhikra" which includes both the Quran and the insipration given to the Prophet. That's why some of the translators translated it as:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). Yusuf Ali

Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian. Shakir

You have to see what the word Dhikra here is referring to. If it was referring to hadiths, then it would be a contradictions because hadiths have not been guarded from corruption.

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Here is was Islamic-Awareness says about this:
The promise made by Allah(SWT) in Qur'an 15:9 is obviously fulfilled in the undisputed purity of the Qur'anic text throughout the fourteen centuries since its revelation. However, what is often forgotten by many Muslims is that the divine promise also includes, by necessity, the Sunnah of the Prophet(P), because the Sunnah is the practical example of the implementation of the Qur'anic guidance, the wisdom taught to the Prophet(P) along with the scripture, and neither the Qur'an nor the Sunnah can be understood correctly without the other. (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/hadsciences.html)

Yes, but the Sunnah has been shown to not be preserved and corrupted? It would be like Allah telling us that he would preserve the bible :P. Therefore, you must conclude that the reminder this verse was talking about is the Quran.

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You said the Quran tries to support every belief. The Quran speaks the truth, despite it being wrong for someone or true for someone else. To prove this, I will use your example.

(And he is the one who created the night, daylight, sun and the moon, all swimming in an orbit). (Quran, The Prophets: 33).

Some decades before, the Sun moving was considered a scientific error. Now we know that it also moves (I think around itself, I'm not sure but I have read it somewhere and also Dr. Zakir Naik talks about it). So the Quran is the truth, even if it may not seem to someone. It doesn't neccesarily need to support every belief.

The Quran must support reality and 7th century belief simultaneously and that is what we see.

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Allah says several times in the Quran tha the majority of people are wrong. But this does not apply when it comes to something that is consensus between muslims.

Brother, this consensus between Muslims does not hold any argumentative value! The majority of muslim scholars went to scholar schools which were biased against certain things like evolution in the Quran for example. It is no surprise they also hold that bias. But unfortunately, the Quran support for evolution is too strong. The best way to do this is to go to my arguments one by one and then we decide whether the Quran supports evolution. Adhering to the majority opinion means we should all become Christians.

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Using your intellect to understand the Quran is wrong, and as I said, it was the main cause for so many sects to be formed. The solution is clear: humbling yourself, obeying the scholars, accepting the hadiths. This is the true Islam, which creates no confusion among people. I would never believe that Allah will leave such important thing unclear to us. I will respond to your arguments for evolution in the next post insha'Allah.

Completely disagree. I do not obey scholars, no shirk here.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on October 25, 2013, 04:31:27 PM
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mclinkin94, I don't have time at the moment to respond to your article about evolution being supported by the Quran. But, in short words: the Quran in some places tells us that the man was created from dust and in some others from a liquid. To make it clear, the Quran says that it was Adam who was created from dust, which means that whenever the Quran talks about people being created from a liquid etc is talking about other people:
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on October 25, 2013, 04:39:36 PM
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mclinkin94, I don't have time at the moment to respond to your article about evolution being supported by the Quran. But, in short words: the Quran in some places tells us that the man was created from dust and in some others from a liquid. To make it clear, the Quran says that it was Adam who was created from dust, which means that whenever the Quran talks about people being created from a liquid etc is talking about other people:
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on October 25, 2013, 05:20:44 PM
After long arguments and seeing the true material , I'll refrain from going further with Mclinckin . That's unless he brings up yet another bizarre thing and claim it is in the great Islam .
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on October 26, 2013, 11:04:04 PM
I'm glitching up badly, I'll respond when this is fixed  :)

@Black Muslim, did you get my youtube response. I pressed sent but it is not showing up in my sent box..

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When the Quran talks about stages, it talk about the stages of forming the dust or stages of embryo. This article refutes everything that has to do with evolution in the Quran: http://www.qurandeniesdarwinism.com/4.html

No, the Quran also says that we were also created from dust.

(Quran 30:20 )And of His signs is that He created you from dust; then, suddenly you were human beings dispersing [throughout the earth].
(Quran 35:11 )And Allah created you from dust, then from a sperm-drop; then He made you mates.

This is the same as Allah saying:

(Quran 16:4) He created man from a sperm-drop; then at once, he is a clear adversary.

So your argument holds no water.

---

I read that website called Quran and Darwinism. I saw a lot of dishonesty. You will see an example of his dishonesty below :)

------

Why should the stages only be referred by embryology when the quran referred to another set of stages.

The Quran mentioned two types of stages:

The embryological stages (that we all know of)
-The creation of mankind stages:

Quran 3:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.


Stage of beginning creation.

Quran 3:8 Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

Stage of sexual reproduction

Quran 3:9 Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

Stage of proportioning and higher intellect formation

So you must conclude that when the Quran says:

(Quran 71:14)  God created you in diverse stages

that it is referring to BOTH embryology and evolution.


The author of
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on October 27, 2013, 06:33:40 AM
The fake smile has returned I see . One minute you call me a disbeliever and now this ?

First of all , I didn't take a thing from Quran and Darwinism website . And seeing your way of forging evidence , I don't think you're one to talk about dishonesty !
We already discussed it and we all saw how you come up with anything at all to support your faith in Darwinism . Going on any further will be fruitless .
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: abdullah on October 27, 2013, 03:30:57 PM
Assalamualykuim
 Ilir ahmeti and blackmuslim
Before I respond to your posts, allow me to ask y'all a question.
Do y'all believe that the path that the sunni scholars take is the most intectually sound position?
And another question, show me one ayah in the Quran, where it says not to use my intellect when reading the Qur'an.

Brother Mclinkin
I dont know why I have to keep on repeating this, It is impossible for the sunnah to have been corrupted, it has been passed on by so many people in each generation that it is almost at the same level as the Quran in authenticity. The Sunnah and Hadith are two different concepts. It is only logical that Allah would protect the practice of the religion from corruption.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on October 27, 2013, 05:08:41 PM
My previous post got cut off, this is what it originally said:

The author of that website claims that we should interpret verses in light of other Quranic verses, and I just did :P, the author of that article neglected Quran 32:7-9 and only used the embryology one. How dishonest, eh?

That article claims:

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  That the verse is to be interpreted in this way is clear from the principle of "interpreting Qur'anic verses in the light of other Qur'anic verses," because in other verses Allah explains the stages of creation as being those inside the mother's womb.

Why did he neglect when Allah also explains the stages of human creation in 32:7-9 and many other places?  Are you denying those verses?

Therefore we must conclude that when the Quran says: (Quran 71:14)  God created you in  stages , it is referring to the stages mentioned in the embryology verses and the origin of man verses.

There really is no reasonable refutation to this unless you'd like to adhere to excuse making and say that Quran 32:7-9 are not talking about stages even though they clearly are.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on October 27, 2013, 05:17:55 PM
The fake smile has returned I see . One minute you call me a disbeliever and now this ?

First of all , I didn't take a thing from Quran and Darwinism website . And seeing your way of forging evidence , I don't think you're one to talk about dishonesty !
We already discussed it and we all saw how you come up with anything at all to support your faith in Darwinism . Going on any further will be fruitless .

Asalamu Alaikum, did you get my youtube response, I sent several but they are not showing up in my sent box. Let me know if you got any because you haven't responded yet.

I have not forged any evidence to my knowledge, nor have I shown dishonesty. Attacking me does not change what the Quran says  :D
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: The Canadian Atheist on October 28, 2013, 02:46:14 AM
The fake smile has returned I see . One minute you call me a disbeliever and now this ?

First of all , I didn't take a thing from Quran and Darwinism website . And seeing your way of forging evidence , I don't think you're one to talk about dishonesty !
We already discussed it and we all saw how you come up with anything at all to support your faith in Darwinism . Going on any further will be fruitless .

Asalamu Alaikum, did you get my youtube response, I sent several but they are not showing up in my sent box. Let me know if you got any because you haven't responded yet.

I have not forged any evidence to my knowledge, nor have I shown dishonesty. Attacking me does not change what the Quran says  :D

I like your debating temperament. Really hard to find people like these on the internet
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on October 28, 2013, 07:52:38 AM
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Do y'all believe that the path that the sunni scholars take is the most intectually sound position?
And another question, show me one ayah in the Quran, where it says not to use my intellect when reading the Qur'an.
Now , what does the word "Sunni" mean ? Truth is , this word wasn't used until many false sects appeared and claimed to be Islamic while they're nothing of Islam like sects which worship Ali Allah be pleased of him . After they appeared , there was a need to use a term which defines the group that is on the right path . And so the term "Ahl Assuna Wa Aljama'a" shortly "Sunnis" appeared . The term itself is taken from the sayings of the prophet peace upon him where he says that all the groups are misguided except one which is the one following his Sunnah and group who are the companions . So yes , following the path of the prophet peace upon him is the only true way .
And now , where did I say we shouldn't use our intellect ? I just said that we're not ones to deny something we can't explain materially .

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Why did he neglect when Allah also explains the stages of human creation in 32:7-9 and many other places?  Are you denying those verses?

Therefore we must conclude that when the Quran says: (Quran 71:14)  God created you in  stages , it is referring to the stages mentioned in the embryology verses and the origin of man verses.

There really is no reasonable refutation to this unless you'd like to adhere to excuse making and say that Quran 32:7-9 are not talking about stages even though they clearly are.
As I said , Ill refrain . I already wasted hours of trying to reason with you . But you just can't abandon what you were forced to learn . How funny that accuse me of your own case .

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I have not forged any evidence to my knowledge, nor have I shown dishonesty. Attacking me does not change what the Quran says  :D
Sure , keep the smile if you want . You don't fool me .
And indeed , attacking you doesn't change what the Quran says . Attacking you is just my personal opinion about your misguidance . What really demolishes your false claims is what I already mentioned before and how you take anything there is as evidence for your doctrine . It's a matter of believe first and then find evidence . If you really want to go on and are sure that absolute truth is with you then drop by the place I told you unless it makes you feel insecure .

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I like your debating temperament. Really hard to find people like these on the internet
Again , mind your business . And don't let the idea "Since all those of the same religion are conflicting then I must be right" get to you . It's more than enough that Atheism has no basis at all and anyone does whatever they want in it .
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: The Canadian Atheist on October 28, 2013, 12:27:52 PM
It's rather ironic that you tell me to mind my own business. Are you so insecure about your beliefs that you have to always try and pick on my posts and constantly produce Ad Hominem attacks instead of addressing the original point?
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on October 28, 2013, 12:35:32 PM
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Why did he neglect when Allah also explains the stages of human creation in 32:7-9 and many other places?  Are you denying those verses?

Therefore we must conclude that when the Quran says: (Quran 71:14)  God created you in  stages , it is referring to the stages mentioned in the embryology verses and the origin of man verses.

There really is no reasonable refutation to this unless you'd like to adhere to excuse making and say that Quran 32:7-9 are not talking about stages even though they clearly are.

As I said , Ill refrain . I already wasted hours of trying to reason with you . But you just can't abandon what you were forced to learn . How funny that accuse me of your own case .

That sounds like an excuse to not debate me. Why not refute my arguments instead of insulting them? The Quran said explictly we were created in stages and the Quran explicitly highlighted what those stages were-evolutionary and embryological. There really is no way out of this if you want to remain intellectually honest. 

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And indeed , attacking you doesn't change what the Quran says . Attacking you is just my personal opinion about your misguidance . What really demolishes your false claims is what I already mentioned before and how you take anything there is as evidence for your doctrine . It's a matter of believe first and then find evidence . If you really want to go on and are sure that absolute truth is with you then drop by the place I told you unless it makes you feel insecure . 

Glad we are on the same page. You are gonna have to show me where where I was forging evidence.

If you are asking me to find evidence, I have shown you Quranic evidence that there really is no way out of unless you become dishonest.

I believe your issue with evolution is not Quranic, but rather scientific. This is a religious forum, there are many science forums you can go to and debate with evolution. All you need to is study it and see the evidence for it.

I have dropped by the places you keep pointing me at, do you expect me to go through all of the sites and write you a response one by one? Give me certain aspects of them that compel you and I will answer you.

I've done a lot of work on that subject--both scientific and religious research.

I am compelled to believe in the fact of evolution. Science has proved it and the Quran has implied it. There is a reason why the prominent scientists no longer consider evolution to be a theory. It has become very strong in its evidence and explanatory power. All the evidence we have proves evolution. Did you get that? All (not 'most') of the evidence we have proves evolution.

But evidence doesn't convince the unwilling. , Allah does not love these kinds of people. He has given you intellect and higher intelligence. Many times in the Quran this is mentioned, intellect is important.

(Quran 8:22) Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason
(Quran 8:23) Had Allah known any good in them, He would have made them hear. And if He had made them hear, they would [still] have turned away, while they were refusing.
(Quran 21:10) We have sent down to you a Book. It will give you eminence, honour and nobility. Will you then not be sensible and reasonable and understand it?

A perfect example is the flat earth society, please drop by and see the dishonesty and unwilling nature:  http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?board=10.0

You are ordered to reflect upon the Quran:

(Quran 47:24) Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts?


So reflect upon these verses:

(Quran 64:3) ...He designed you and perfected your design...
(Quran 32:7) Allah is He who has made everything He created BETTER, and He began the creation of the human.. <--reflect upon this, why does the Quran say that creation was made better or perfected, and then links that with the beginning of human creation?
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on October 28, 2013, 01:42:31 PM
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It's rather ironic that you tell me to mind my own business. Are you so insecure about your beliefs that you have to always try and pick on my posts and constantly produce Ad Hominem attacks instead of addressing the original point?
Because you're supposed to mind it . You have people of a religion conflicting , what does it have to do with you ? The real irony is the usual drama Atheists play of how they are oppressed and no one leaves them alone . I'm not the one insecure . There is no question with no answer in Islam . And I'm the one picking on your posts ? If you're not here to talk or debate about Atheism and Islam then why stick around ? And finally , you're not one to talk about ad hominem or whatever words you keep repeating . You're the one who always ignores the core of the response to his believe . So yes , you're the one who's not secure . And as we say in Arabic "He accuses me of his disease and slips away" .

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That sounds like an excuse to not debate me. Why not refute my arguments instead of insulting them? The Quran said explictly we were created in stages and the Quran explicitly highlighted what those stages were-evolutionary and embryological. There really is no way out of this if you want to remain intellectually honest.
Now you talk about forging excuses for not debating ? How many times did I tell you to come here  :
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/forum.php?
and you never commented at all ? I already made my argument wither it's where you reject Sunnah or where you claim Quran supports this dictatorial religion called "Evolution" . And my responses are right here :
http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1269.0.html
http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1295.0.html
And seeing how you repeat things over and over , I found no use in wasting 2 hours of my day refuting you point by point .
You accused the companions who Quran reached us through with hypocrisy . You accused scholars with no exception of corruption and forging sayings . And ironically , you wanted to force your belief in evolution on everyone and even accused me of worshiping other than Allah himself . And you still have the nerve talk about honesty ?! If you want to make a sect for yourself where you believe that we're cousins of monkeys and that there is no proof of a God - And therefore there is no God - and that Hadith is corrupted and the companions are disbelievers then don't call it Islam .

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I believe your issue with evolution is not Quranic, but rather scientific. This is a religious forum, there are many science forums you can go to and debate with evolution. All you need to is study it and see the evidence for it.
My issue is both . Quran doesn't mention this nonsense and science keeps stepping on this myth day in and day out and evolutionists like you have nothing to do except forging evidence to support their belief . And if you're really so sure of it , then why not debate about it with someone who knows well how to crush it ? I personally do know evidence proving this thing wrong . The problem is that I'm not good at recalling sources and bringing them . That doesn't mean in anyway that I said evolution is wrong with no proof .

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I have dropped by the places you keep pointing me at, do you expect me to go through all of the sites and write you a response one by one? Give me certain aspects of them that compel you and I will answer you.
What places ? It's one forum . I told you that if you're sure about evolution , then try to prove it where it is getting shot in the foot every single day . The place which Atheists and evolutionists despise so much .

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I am compelled to believe in the fact of evolution. Science has proved it and the Quran has implied it.
Yeah , right . And melons are tornadoes hitting tropical areas .

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There is a reason why the prominent scientists no longer consider evolution to be a theory. It has become very strong in its evidence and explanatory power. All the evidence we have proves evolution. Did you get that? All (not 'most') of the evidence we have proves evolution.
It seems we're dealing with the same type of a person who thinks that Baba Noel - AKA Santa Claus - is real . You have no idea of what happens around you , do you ? If it's really necessary , I'll just bring some tips of icebergs from a certain blog and see what you have to say . ALL evidence ? God wrecks the house of arrogance  You don't seem to know the shame evolutionists suffer with their fable getting exposed more and more .

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But evidence doesn't convince the unwilling. , Allah does not love these kinds of people. He has given you intellect and higher intelligence. Many times in the Quran this is mentioned, intellect is important.
And now who's attacking the other instead of addressing the main argument ? That goes to both you and your Atheist buddy .

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A perfect example is the flat earth society, please drop by and see the dishonesty and unwilling nature
I don't care what they think . You're now talking with me . What do we call this one ? Straw man ?

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You are ordered to reflect upon the Quran:
(Quran 47:24) Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts?
So reflect upon these verses:
(Quran 64:3) ...He designed you and perfected your design...
(Quran 32:7) Allah is He who has made everything He created BETTER, and He began the creation of the human..
This is the answer for where you forge evidence .
 Allah perfected our design . And if you try to use this as an admission from me that you're right then don't you dare talk about dishonesty . I'll repeat what I already said . The reason you see evidence in this is your acrobatic explanation which comes from lack of knowledge about either mathematical logic or language . Perfecting something doesn't mean in ANYWAY that it wasn't perfect and then became perfect . You say I insult Allah by denying this myth ? Who's really insulting him ? Allah says in many places that he created creatures in perfect and fine forms and shapes . And now you claim he wasn't able to do so and needed "evolution" ?! I still can't understand how your mind functions when reading this . EVERY SINGLE PERSON I KNOW understands that Allah created us in perfect forms and no one came out with the meaning that it's evolution . Even a simple speaker of Arabic - OR ENGLISH ! - can understand that it means perfecting something while creating it and nothing is mentioned about evolution ! That's why I keep saying you see evidence in ANYTHING to support your belief .
As for the second verse , it is a CLEAR evidence of you forging things . Either that or you took some wrong translation and just decided to believe it . Here :
http://quran.com/32
NO translation at all says that after creating things , Allah made them better . And this one :
http://quran.com/95/4
Says that Allah has already created man in best shape .

So I'm still convinced this is a myth and a dictatorial religion .

P.S You're blocked on YouTube . I'm already dealing with others there . If you have something to say , say it here .
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: The Canadian Atheist on October 28, 2013, 09:04:33 PM
(https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1384123_500657906698919_576789680_n.jpg)
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on October 29, 2013, 06:53:51 AM
And you're clearly on the blue side . The difference is that you believe 0+0=1
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: The Canadian Atheist on October 30, 2013, 12:10:07 AM
And you're clearly on the blue side . The difference is that you believe 0+0=1

Nope

Here's what's happening.

Man observes and through evidence discovers fossils that link man with other species.
Man observes and through evidence discovers common DNA that link man with other species.
Creationists read the Bible/Quran and for no reason just blindly accept what it says over the observable evidence.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on October 30, 2013, 06:30:54 AM
So , all you have is sarcasm and empty claims and then you talk about ad whatever ? I'll say it flat out . Man observed the universe and discovered that no sane person denies the creator . Evolutionists on the other hand , and in order to achieve their goals did whatever possible to force this myth on people . One good thing is that it's dying
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/178930_424615320925954_1911635107_n.jpg
Still , that wouldn't stop them from bringing new myths as long as they escape admitting a God .
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on October 31, 2013, 11:33:05 PM
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Now you talk about forging excuses for not debating ? How many times did I tell you to come here  :
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/forum.php?


And how many times have I told you I went there and that I simply don't have the time to refute every single point for you. If you have a good point as you percieve it from that website, let me know. and I will gladly respond.

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and you never commented at all ? I already made my argument wither it's where you reject Sunnah or where you claim Quran supports this dictatorial religion called "Evolution" . And my responses are right here :
http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1269.0.html
http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1295.0.html

In the evolution post link, you have not disproved any of my points rather you point to hadiths and reject Quran. Its not my style. In the hadith post, you are partially right. Still, you haven't addressed my points. Unfortunately, Canadian Atheist was right when it comes to Ad hominem attacks. The reason why I say that is because you need to hear yourself. I could direct you to that same link and tell you I debunked your points.

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And seeing how you repeat things over and over , I found no use in wasting 2 hours of my day refuting you point by point .

I don't think it would take 2 hours.

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You accused the companions who Quran reached us through with hypocrisy

Did I? Or did Allah?

Quran 9:101 And among those around you of the bedouins are hypocrites, and [also] from the people of Madinah. They have become accustomed to hypocrisy. You, [O Muhammad], do not know them, [but] We know them. We will punish them twice [in this world]; then they will be returned to a great punishment.

I am simply not tolerant to those who deny the Quran. It is simply disturbing to see muslims denying the Quran. Its ridiculous.

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You accused scholars with no exception of corruption and forging sayings .

Was that not a reasonable accusation based on deductive reasoning and the Quran?

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And ironically , you wanted to force your belief in evolution on everyone and even accused me of worshiping other than Allah himself . 

I support whichever belief is reasonable and ration. Whichever belief is supported by logic/reason/evidence.

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And you still have the nerve talk about honesty ?! If you want to make a sect for yourself where you believe that we're cousins of monkeys and that there is no proof of a God - And therefore there is no God 

It looks like you don't like the Idea that you share a comman ancestor with monkeys. It seems to bother you and you are biased against it. It seems to insult you. You must think humans are something special when the Quran demeans humans:

(Quran 76:1) Has there come on man a long period of time when he was a thing unremembered?


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My issue is both . Quran doesn't mention this nonsense and science keeps stepping on this myth day in and day out and evolutionists like you have nothing to do except forging evidence to support their belief .

You have committed 3 factual errors. I have proven that the Quran without doubt supports evolution. And you have science undoubtedly proving evolution. It takes a real deal of dishonesty denying evolution. A LOT of dishonesty.

Just because you have seen a few cases of forged evidence, does not mean all the evidence is forged. You are simply too ignorant in biology to even claim a point in evolution. I suggest you study. The evidence is overwhelming.  Don't be like those who still believe the Earth is flat.

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And if you're really so sure of it , then why not debate about it with someone who knows well how to crush it ?

I have and continue to. This isn't the only forum I am involved in.

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I personally do know evidence proving this thing wrong . The problem is that I'm not good at recalling sources and bringing them . That doesn't mean in anyway that I said evolution is wrong with no proof .

O.K. This does nothing at all to help your case.

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What places ? It's one forum . I told you that if you're sure about evolution , then try to prove it where it is getting shot in the foot every single day . The place which Atheists and evolutionists despise so much .

Apologies, I thought you refereed me to the dishonesty haruyn Yahya and Quran and darwinism. I'm working on refuting them both as we speak. I don't like dishonesty and whenever I see it--I immediately display it.

Like I said about that forum, all you have to do is present points you thought were compelling. None were to me.

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I am compelled to believe in the fact of evolution. Science has proved it and the Quran has implied it.
Yeah , right . And melons are tornadoes hitting tropical areas .

Wow, you have really disproved my point.

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It seems we're dealing with the same type of a person who thinks that Baba Noel - AKA Santa Claus - is real . You have no idea of what happens around you , do you ? If it's really necessary , I'll just bring some tips of icebergs from a certain blog and see what you have to say . ALL evidence ? God wrecks the house of arrogance  You don't seem to know the shame evolutionists suffer with their fable getting exposed more and more .

Remember what the Canadian Atheist said about Ad hominem. Reflect upon what you just said.  All evidence we have supports evolution. , Simply, a layperson such as yourself will need to really understand evolution before commenting at it. I do not deny your points as I have not heard them all. But I ask that you truly and without bias search for answers.

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But evidence doesn't convince the unwilling. , Allah does not love these kinds of people. He has given you intellect and higher intelligence. Many times in the Quran this is mentioned, intellect is important.
And now who's attacking the other instead of addressing the main argument ? That goes to both you and your Atheist buddy .

I don't consider that attacking you. I consider that showing you what the Quran says about people who act like you. Evidence needs to be examined.

As far as "my atheist buddy", I support whichever belief makes sense and is reasonable regardless of where or who it comes from.



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You are ordered to reflect upon the Quran:
(Quran 47:24) Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an, or are there locks upon [their] hearts?
So reflect upon these verses:
(Quran 64:3) ...He designed you and perfected your design...
(Quran 32:7) Allah is He who has made everything He created BETTER, and He began the creation of the human..
This is the answer for where you forge evidence .
 Allah perfected our design . And if you try to use this as an admission from me that you're right then don't you dare talk about dishonesty . I'll repeat what I already said . The reason you see evidence in this is your acrobatic explanation which comes from lack of knowledge about either mathematical logic or language . Perfecting something doesn't mean in ANYWAY that it wasn't perfect and then became perfect . You say I insult Allah by denying this myth ? Who's really insulting him ? Allah says in many places that he created creatures in perfect and fine forms and shapes . And now you claim he wasn't able to do so and needed "evolution" ?! I still can't understand how your mind functions when reading this . EVERY SINGLE PERSON I KNOW understands that Allah created us in perfect forms and no one came out with the meaning that it's evolution . Even a simple speaker of Arabic - OR ENGLISH ! - can understand that it means perfecting something while creating it and nothing is mentioned about evolution ! That's why I keep saying you see evidence in ANYTHING to support your belief .
As for the second verse , it is a CLEAR evidence of you forging things . Either that or you took some wrong translation and just decided to believe it . Here :
http://quran.com/32
NO translation at all says that after creating things , Allah made them better . And this one :
http://quran.com/95/4
Says that Allah has already created man in best shape .

So I'm still convinced this is a myth and a dictatorial religion .

P.S You're blocked on YouTube . I'm already dealing with others there . If you have something to say , say it here .
[/quote]

After all of this time, you have finally at least attempted to respond to one of my points. Now this is how a debate should go!  :D

Firstly, I haven't forged any evidence as I will show you. The first thing you did is say that "perfecting" something does not mean that it was made better from the original and then you said this insults Allah. I do not see that insult. I see the genius!

The word for word translation of that verse has the word "Fa-Ahasana". Which means "to make better". Here is a word for word translation just so that you understand:

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=64&verse=3#(64:3:1)

So that verse would say:

(Quran 64:3) He designed you and made your design better.

Without a doubt this verse is saying that you were designed and that design you had was made BETTER. There cannot be any doubt in that.

Think about it this way if this verse wanted to say that our form is perfect as you claim, why didn't it just say "And we have made your form perfect" rather than "We have formed you and made better your form". Do you get the difference?

The Quran in many places tell us that our form was made better than the original. There is a big difference from what you claimed. Reflect!

---

Secondly, you claim that I forged evidence again falsely. All you need to do is examine the verse word for word and think a little.  http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=32&verse=6#(32:6:1)
There is nothing else you need. Just a thinking mind!

It again uses the word (ahsan) meaning to make everything better. Look at that link I just posted. Look at it twice. And read the word for word translation when it comes to verse 7. It SPECIFICALLY SAYS: "Allah has made good everything he created". That means everything that was created was made better/good. It doesn't really take that much power to understand this. Rather you say the human form is perfect. Again, if the Quran wanted to say the human form is perfect in that verse--would it have been worded this way?? Of course not!

You again accuse me of ignorance even though I use a valid source that shows you word for word translations. There really is no debate here.

Now you mentioned Quran 95:4--It is true, Man was created in the best of stature or the best of moulds. But 'best' relative to who? The other creatures on earth. How exactly does this deny evolution or the quranic support of evolution? Instead ask yourself, man was created in the best of stature. Through what mechanism?

Obviously through the mechanism the Quran mentioned in 32:7, through making everything Allah created better.
--

Now I hope you see who is being dishonesty and forging evidence here. I have displayed word-for-word translations that there is no doubt of. But nice try.

Further, you keep saying I am ignorant. But, who is it that has really displayed ignorance now that you see the word for word translation?

--
Please excuse spelling. It is late when I typed this.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on October 31, 2013, 11:41:05 PM
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Nope

Here's what's happening.

Man observes and through evidence discovers fossils that link man with other species.
Man observes and through evidence discovers common DNA that link man with other species.
Creationists read the Bible/Quran and for no reason just blindly accept what it says over the observable evidence.

The first 2 points you made were good. The last point is half correct. You should cross out the Quran and replace it with "hadith". Adding the word "corrupted" before them also reveals a fact.

Creationists read the corrupted Bible/Quranhadith and for no reason just blindly accept what it says over the observable evidence.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on November 01, 2013, 05:07:15 AM
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And how many times have I told you I went there and that I simply don't have the time to refute every single point for you. If you have a good point as you percieve it from that website, let me know. and I will gladly respond.
The point was to have a discussion there . Well the , whatever .

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In the evolution post link, you have not disproved any of my points rather you point to hadiths and reject Quran.
If you reject Hadith , the go make your own religion . I showed you from both Qura and Sunnah that your arguments are invalid .

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In the hadith post, you are partially right. Still, you haven't addressed my points.
What points exactly ? The ridiculous theory of yours that all the writers conspired ?

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Unfortunately, Canadian Atheist was right when it comes to Ad hominem attacks.
Of course Atheists and people with mentalities of Atheists would agree . Truthful is the one who said that there is almost no difference between them and rejecters of Hadith  . And let's suppose I make this ad crap you repeat over and over thinking it makes anything , why not respond to the core ? Do you have the nerve say I didn't make any refutation at all ? And if you think about it , you're also making the same fallacy . The problem is that you have issues . Whenever there's something hitting your belief , you just whine and say that the other guy is a jerk who bullies you .

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I don't think it would take 2 hours.
That was metaphorical .

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Did I? Or did Allah?

Quran 9:101 And among those around you of the bedouins are hypocrites, and [also] from the people of Madinah. They have become accustomed to hypocrisy. You, [O Muhammad], do not know them, [but] We know them. We will punish them twice [in this world]; then they will be returned to a great punishment.
Pathetic indeed . I'll just copy the response which you still haven't addressed .

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O one who knows not , Allah says about the companions

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Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest

So I'll never accept someone to call the companions hypocrites ! Someone who says  we call others Kuffar and then does the same thing with those whom he doesn't equal their shoes !

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Again , I won't stand and watch as you accuse the companions of the best of mankind of hypocrisy . Put an angry face if you want , it's nothing compared to my rage at such insolence . And if we follow your twisted line of thinking , we must accuse Quran of corruption ! Who delivered Quran to us ? Aren't they the same people whom you insult and accuse of blaspheme ?! This is one out of many other points which no rejecter of Sunnah can answer . Who should I believe ? You , an arrogant person who talks what he doesn't understand or the one who sent the prophets ?

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Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest

And the first forerunners [in the faith] among the Muhajireen and the Ansar and those who followed them with good conduct - Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him, and He has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever. That is the great attainment.

For the poor emigrants who were expelled from their homes and their properties, seeking bounty from Allah and [His] approval and supporting Allah and His Messenger, [there is also a share]. Those are the truthful.

And let me slap you out of this lala world where you live .You desperately clutch to the straw of accusing the companions . And you think that you understand the 101st verse of Tubah . Let me ask : If the prophet really didn't know the hypocrites at all his whole life , how come Allah orders him not to obey them and fight them ?

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And do not pray [the funeral prayer, O Muhammad], over any of them who has died - ever - or stand at his grave. Indeed, they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger and died while they were defiantly disobedient.

And do not obey the disbelievers and the hypocrites but do not harm them, and rely upon Allah . And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination.

So what do we call escaping from answering by using flashy terms ? Ad what ?

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Was that not a reasonable accusation based on deductive reasoning and the Quran?
Do elephants fly with their ears ?

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I support whichever belief is reasonable and ration. Whichever belief is supported by logic/reason/evidence.
And you have nothing to back this up . Just deluding yourself . You talk about logic and reason and evidence while you fail to show any of them . I also claim to have proof and evidence from both Quran and Sunnah . And if we correct your line , it would become that you support whichever belief that supports your own logic and what you personally see as evidence .


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It looks like you don't like the Idea that you share a comman ancestor with monkeys. It seems to bother you and you are biased against it. It seems to insult you. You must think humans are something special when the Quran demeans humans:

(Quran 76:1) Has there come on man a long period of time when he was a thing unremembered?
And once again , you demonstrate ignorance of the Quran which is innocent of you .
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We have certainly created man in the best of stature;

And We have certainly honored the children of Adam and carried them on the land and sea and provided for them of the good things and preferred them over much of what We have created, with [definite] preference.
Yes , humans ARE special and favored on the rest of creations . Who obeys Allah is in a greater statue than angels whom creation makes them obey Allah in whatever he orders .
Yes , we are not cousins of monkeys . And yes , we won't just stand and watch while some claim that we are .

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You have committed 3 factual errors. I have proven that the Quran without doubt supports evolution. And you have science undoubtedly
proving evolution. It takes a real deal of dishonesty denying evolution. A LOT of dishonesty.
Alright , I'll keep up with you and your Atheist buddy and say that this is a straw man fallacy if not mistaken . You just say "I proved , science proves , you're wrong . End of the story" . It would be good if you can actually back this up . And until now , I refute your point and you repeat them saying that they're right and I'm dishonest . So before you two accuse others of fallacies , look in the mirror .

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Just because you have seen a few cases of forged evidence, does not mean all the evidence is forged. You are simply too ignorant in biology to even claim a point in evolution. I suggest you study. The evidence is overwhelming.  Don't be like those who still believe the Earth is flat.
Maybe the next time you mention that ad thing , I'll bring all your attacks . The difference between you and me is that I show your lack of knowledge and say it AND actually show why you are .
Yes , just because some evidence was forged doesn't mean that all is . What makes me know that all is forged is not seeing any at all . Every single case I saw was forging or taking anything unrelated and forcing it as evidence . And yes , I'm not a scientist in biology neither did I study it that much considering that I'm in my last year of high school , old man . That doesn't mean in anyway I will allow you to fill my head with your beliefs . What is this fallacy called ? I also can say that you have no degree in Islam study and so you're no one to talk . Rather , I fire your poisonous arrow back at you - Yes yes , call me a terrorist - . I don't care if you have a doctorate in biology , it doesn't change a thing wither in evolution or in your false explanations to justify it .

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O.K. This does nothing at all to help your case.
That was to say I won't just go with your "flow" of biased media and believe whatever it says . It also says that there are infinite multiverses disproving God , you don't see me believing their nonsense . Yes , I know for sure that evolution is a myth and clearly wrong . As for arguing about that , I'll just have to look at responses to your claims so that I remember them and then bring it .

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Apologies, I thought you refereed me to the dishonesty haruyn Yahya and Quran and darwinism. I'm working on refuting them both as we speak. I don't like dishonesty and whenever I see it--I immediately display it.

Like I said about that forum, all you have to do is present points you thought were compelling. None were to me.
A thief thinks everyone steals . The most dishonest calls others so . As for Harun Yahya , and despite his errors of doctrine , he actually does refute what you think as evidence of evolution well . Explains why he put a prize money for anyone bringing a single "real" fossil supporting it and no one ever got that prize .
And , you're the one claiming that evolution is true and that Quran supports it . So it's actually my job to disprove your points which we still don't see unless I missed them somehow .

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Wow, you have really disproved my point.
You mean the point where you say "I believe evolution is right and Quran says it's right . Just like that" ? Yeah , what a brilliant argument you're making .

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Remember what the Canadian Atheist said about Ad hominem. Reflect upon what you just said.  All evidence we have supports evolution. , Simply, a layperson such as yourself will need to really understand evolution before commenting at it. I do not deny your points as I have not heard them all. But I ask that you truly and without bias search for answers.
Yet again "All evidence says I'm right , end of the story" . Yet again , similar birds are attracted to each other . And yet again , you act like a Christian pope saying that I cannot understand the trinity of evolution unless I study it .
Just one sec , layperson ? As in a secular ? Either I'm getting this term wrong or that you're not looking in the mirror or that you call me so because I "separate evolution from politics" .

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I don't consider that attacking you. I consider that showing you what the Quran says about people who act like you. Evidence needs to be examined.
Well back at you . It's really nonsense to talk about attacking others while doing the same . Indeed , Quran describes the likes of you well .

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As far as "my atheist buddy", I support whichever belief makes sense and is reasonable regardless of where or who it comes from.
Which is why you support his belief that there is no God as in that video of yours . Yeah , a lot of sense .

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After all of this time, you have finally at least attempted to respond to one of my points. Now this is how a debate should go!
And that's how it went until it froze when you simply didn't make any response .

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I do not see that insult. I see the genius!
Then go check your eyes .

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The word for word translation of that verse has the word "Fa-Ahasana". Which means "to make better". Here is a word for word translation just so that you understand:

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=64&verse=3#(64:3:1)
Even when you try to forge , you fail horribly ! Even this page you bring says "and made good" . Where does it say "Made better" ?

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Think about it this way if this verse wanted to say that our form is perfect as you claim, why didn't it just say "And we have made your form perfect" rather than "We have formed you and made better your form". Do you get the difference?
The simple answer is that it didn't . You just brought me the evidence that you're wrong ! And if you look at Surrah of Tiin , you'd find a verse saying so .

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Secondly, you claim that I forged evidence again falsely. All you need to do is examine the verse word for word and think a little.  http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=32&verse=6#(32:6:1)
There is nothing else you need. Just a thinking mind!
Oh yes I do have a thinking mind and it tells me that you just brought what contradicts your argument ! ? The same as the last one .

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It again uses the word (ahsan) meaning to make everything better. Look at that link I just posted. Look at it twice. And read the word for word translation when it comes to verse 7. It SPECIFICALLY SAYS: "Allah has made good everything he created". That means everything that was created was made better/good. It doesn't really take that much power to understand this. Rather you say the human form is perfect. Again, if the Quran wanted to say the human form is perfect in that verse--would it have been worded this way?? Of course not!
I see the saying of Allah appearing in you :

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It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them].
Other signs in Quran and Hadith make it clear . But you ignorantly take one sign at a time the way it suits your desire and explain it however you like . After all of this , I started to doubt that you lack knowledge in language , rather , you're just stubborn .

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You again accuse me of ignorance even though I use a valid source that shows you word for word translations. There really is no debate here.
If we really go easy on you and say that the links you brought don't actually break your argument , how am I supposed to know that they aren't hypocrites and people conspiring . Even the companions had hypocrites among them so why should we assume that there aren't until now ? I'm just showing you what your line of thinking leads to .

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Now I hope you see who is being dishonesty and forging evidence here. I have displayed word-for-word translations that there is no doubt of. But nice try.
Further, you keep saying I am ignorant. But, who is it that has really displayed ignorance now that you see the word for word translation?
Yeah , nice try hiding your failure through flashy words like "trusted , authorized , no doubt , no debate here , word for word , dishonesty , working mind" . Just a load of arrogance boosters .

In the end , you bring what kills your argument , so yes , no debate here !

Once again , I'll repeat what you seem to fear answering about Sunnah . It's the last part in this post of mine .
www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1295.msg4801.html#msg4801
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on November 01, 2013, 12:17:13 PM
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The point was to have a discussion there . Well the , whatever .

I expect that you get your points. My Arabic is not as good as it should be, I am still learning. I've been taking Arabic classes for over 2 years. I've improved tremendously and it has helped me with understanding the Quran.

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If you reject Hadith , the go make your own religion . I showed you from both Qura and Sunnah that your arguments are invalid .

You have not shown me from my arguments are invalid from the Quran. I showed you how your arguments are invalid from the Quran as I have even presented a word for word translation.

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What points exactly ? The ridiculous theory of yours that all the writers conspired ?

Show me where exactly I said all the writers conspired.

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Of course Atheists and people with mentalities of Atheists would agree . Truthful is the one who said that there is almost no difference between them and rejecters of Hadith  . And let's suppose I make this ad crap you repeat over and over thinking it makes anything , why not respond to the core ? Do you have the nerve say I didn't make any refutation at all ? And if you think about it , you're also making the same fallacy . The problem is that you have issues . Whenever there's something hitting your belief , you just whine and say that the other guy is a jerk who bullies you .

I have not made the same fallacy, i literraly present scholarly interpreations of the Quran to show my points. I don't agree with people, I agree with some of their points. Canadian Atheist made a good point.

I have responded to the core, and you have not made a refutation at all--I have shown you your mistakes through an irrefutable word for word translation. Are you going to deny such a translation. Or would you rather go with your own favorable translation?




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Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest

So I'll never accept someone to call the companions hypocrites ! Someone who says  we call others Kuffar and then does the same thing with those whom he doesn't equal their shoes !

So I guess you don't accept the Quran in 19:101. I didn't call all the companions hypocrites. You completely rejected my point on that thread. I said how would Bukhari know who the hypocrites were if Muhammad himself didn't know. Big difference from how you interpreted it.


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And let me slap you out of this lala world where you live .You desperately clutch to the straw of accusing the companions . And you think that you understand the 101st verse of Tubah . Let me ask : If the prophet really didn't know the hypocrites at all his whole life , how come Allah orders him not to obey them and fight them ?

Again, you are over-reaction to a completely logical point.

Premise 1: The Quran is the word of God and the word of it does not lie
Premise 2: The Quran said that some of the prophet's companions are hypocrites and only Allah knows who they are.
Conclusion: Therefore, what the Quran said about the hypocrisy of some companions is not a lie. And some companions are hypocrites.

You weren't very happy with that Quranic verse. It seems to have bothered you. How could some of the guys you really trust be hypocrites? It must be really damaging to you.



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And do not obey the disbelievers and the hypocrites but do not harm them, and rely upon Allah . And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination.
[/quote]

So what do we call escaping from answering by using flashy terms ? Ad what ? [/quote]

Escaping from this argument. Nope, never happened. I have simply posted a quranic verse and showed you that there are hypocrites among the companions. These verses you posted just tell the prophet to fight against the hypocrites when he sees them. What's funny is this verse is also acknowledging that some companions are hypocrites. Are you saying that Muhammad was able to find all the hypocrites? No, because Quran 19:101 tells us that only Allah knows who they all are and Muhammad does not know.

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Do elephants fly with their ears ?

What's that fallacy I'm thinking of?

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And you have nothing to back this up . Just deluding yourself . You talk about logic and reason and evidence while you fail to show any of them . I also claim to have proof and evidence from both Quran and Sunnah . And if we correct your line , it would become that you support whichever belief that supports your own logic and what you personally see as evidence .

You have the nerve to say I have nothing to back this up while I gave you the direct word-for-word Arabic translation? Seriously? I have the Quran to back me up. This is completely reasonable.

I support whichever belief is reasonable. The Quran supports evolution, simple as that. I have demonstrated it time and time again. You like to perverse the Quran to make it say something it isnt.

Seriously, how does someone interpret this: "(Quran 64:3) ..He designed you and made your design better.. (this is the literal word for word Arabic)" as Allah made our human design perfect. If this verses wanted to say that, then it would have said "He designed you good" Rather then "he designed you and made your design good". Do you get the difference? And then you accuse me of changing the meaning of the Quran? What?


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And once again , you demonstrate ignorance of the Quran which is innocent of you .

I presented a Quranic verse that deameans human character and then you attack me based on ignorance. You must really like to interpret the Quran the way you want it to say huh?

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We have certainly created man in the best of stature;

And We have certainly honored the children of Adam and carried them on the land and sea and provided for them of the good things and preferred them over much of what We have created, with [definite] preference.

Indeed mankind was created in the best of moulds/stature. Through what mechanism? Quran 32:7-9 highlight it. Through the mechanism of making creation better.

Now, I do have to admit that you are partially right when it comes to this. But you must realize that the human character is also not something as special as you make it. You say that humans are too 'high' on the throne to be created from monkeys. You say that humans are too good for that. And that bothers you. That is what I was attacking. So apologies for the misunderstanding.

Allah is absolutely telling us that humans are created in a good stature, but, he also simultaneously demeans human character at the same time. 

Example:

(Quran 76:1) Has there come on man a long period of time when he was a thing unremembered?

So what is the Quran revealing? That Allah created you in the best of forms/mechanisms and preferred you over a lot of other creatures. So you should be thankful for this gift. The Quran also simultaneously tells us that just because humans are created in the best form/mechanism and preferred over other creatures still does not mean that humans are anything really special.

So does this mean that we are 'too' special to be created form monkeys? Emotionally to you, yes. Logically, no. What is so bad about monkeys? What is so wrong about being higher than them? Whatever you think is wrong is entirely subjective.

So point stands, you have a hard time emotionally grasping that monkeys and humans are cousins--because you think humans are too good for that. The Quran has also demeaned human character saying that we are still not that special--we are still close to insignificant.

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Yes , humans ARE special and favored on the rest of creations . Who obeys Allah is in a greater statue than angels whom creation makes them obey Allah in whatever he orders .
Yes , we are not cousins of monkeys . And yes , we won't just stand and watch while some claim that we are .

First re-Read what I wrote above.

Next: woah there. You got something wrong. We are not preferred over all creations. We are preferred over 'most' creation. Read the verse again.

Then you some how made a weird conclusion that we are not cousins of monkeys. Where does that come from? Humans must be so high on the throne, how can they be created by monkeys?

I don't like this emotional nonsense.

Can humans still be preferred over most of creation and created in the best form/mechanism if we descended from a monkey-like ancestor? Of course we can! We were made better and more successful than the early apes. Therefore, we are preferred over them and because of a mechanism of making humans better (Quran 32:7), we were made in the best of moulds.

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Alright , I'll keep up with you and your Atheist buddy and say that this is a straw man fallacy if not mistaken . You just say "I proved , science proves , you're wrong . End of the story" . It would be good if you can actually back this up . And until now , I refute your point and you repeat them saying that they're right and I'm dishonest . So before you two accuse others of fallacies , look in the mirror .

So you say that science hasn't proved evolution? Factual error.

So you say that I didn't prove the Quranic support of evolution. Another factual error.

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Just because you have seen a few cases of forged evidence, does not mean all the evidence is forged. You are simply too ignorant in biology to even claim a point in evolution. I suggest you study. The evidence is overwhelming.  Don't be like those who still believe the Earth is flat.
Maybe the next time you mention that ad thing , I'll bring all your attacks . The difference between you and me is that I show your lack of knowledge and say it AND actually show why you are .
Yes , just because some evidence was forged doesn't mean that all is . What makes me know that all is forged is not seeing any at all . Every single case I saw was forging or taking anything unrelated and forcing it as evidence . And yes , I'm not a scientist in biology neither did I study it that much considering that I'm in my last year of high school , old man . That doesn't mean in anyway I will allow you to fill my head with your beliefs . What is this fallacy called ? I also can say that you have no degree in Islam study and so you're no one to talk . Rather , I fire your poisonous arrow back at you - Yes yes , call me a terrorist - . I don't care if you have a doctorate in biology , it doesn't change a thing wither in evolution or in your false explanations to justify it .

Well looks like you haven't seen enough cases and of course you are not a scientist in biology. The ignorance you display reveals that. Nor are you understanding of the Quran, the ignorance you display reveals that to.

I don't recall saying that you aren't capable of making good points, I said that you simply don't know the fact in evolution and you let that ignorance deceive you into thinking that evolution is false.

Further, you say that I don't have a degree in Islam. Of course I don't. But, I look at scholarly interpretations of the Quran and I also have my own lexicon. I even provide you me sources. You just make statements on evolution and say that all the evidence is forged and make all of these excuses because you don't like the idea of humans being formed form monkeys. Humans must be too high on the throne for that?

How many times has the human character been demeaned in the Quran?

(Quran 5:18) But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination.

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That was to say I won't just go with your "flow" of biased media and believe whatever it says . It also says that there are infinite multiverses disproving God , you don't see me believing their nonsense . Yes , I know for sure that evolution is a myth and clearly wrong . As for arguing about that , I'll just have to look at responses to your claims so that I remember them and then bring it .

The multiverse is not backed by evidence so I do not exactly believe we have completely understood it. I would say that Allah can create whatever he likes.  If the multiverse exists, then it doesn't at all disprove God.

Further, the Quran supports the idea of many universes:

Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,

The Quran uses the word "heavens and the Earth" To mean the universe. The Quran uses the word for "worlds" to mean places beyond the heavens and the Earth.



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A thief thinks everyone steals . The most dishonest calls others so . As for Harun Yahya , and despite his errors of doctrine , he actually does refute what you think as evidence of evolution well . Explains why he put a prize money for anyone bringing a single "real" fossil supporting it and no one ever got that prize .
And , you're the one claiming that evolution is true and that Quran supports it . So it's actually my job to disprove your points which we still don't see unless I missed them somehow .

Looks like you will enjoy my article refuting him? I'm about 25% done, It should be done by January.

The Quran does support evolution. I have shown you time and time again. I don't understand this unwilling nature of yours.

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You mean the point where you say "I believe evolution is right and Quran says it's right . Just like that" ? Yeah , what a brilliant argument you're making .

I do believe evolution is right. And the Quran does say it is right. Just like that. Yeah. Its not necessarily an argument, it is a stating of fact. I have displayed my arguments later in that post  :)

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Yet again "All evidence says I'm right , end of the story" . Yet again , similar birds are attracted to each other . And yet again , you act like a Christian pope saying that I cannot understand the trinity of evolution unless I study it .
Just one sec , layperson ? As in a secular ? Either I'm getting this term wrong or that you're not looking in the mirror or that you call me so because I "separate evolution from politics" .

You cannot understand evolution or the trinity or anything for that matter, unless you study it. Further, you cannot deny something you don't understand and call yourself honest.

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Well back at you . It's really nonsense to talk about attacking others while doing the same . Indeed , Quran describes the likes of you well .

You are right, the Quran describes people who read and reflect upon the Quran to find Allah. Just like me.

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Which is why you support his belief that there is no God as in that video of yours . Yeah , a lot of sense .

There is no proof of God. that is fact and the Quran mentions it. We can debate this at another time. It would have been better if you haven't blocked me from YouTube. How noble of you.

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I do not see that insult. I see the genius!
Then go check your eyes .

Are you saying that Allah creation of the world is stupid? Take that back immediately and repent.

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The word for word translation of that verse has the word "Fa-Ahasana". Which means "to make better". Here is a word for word translation just so that you understand:

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=64&verse=3#(64:3:1)
Even when you try to forge , you fail horribly ! Even this page you bring says "and made good" . Where does it say "Made better" ?

This is your weakest part of the argument. Read the verse again.  I cannot believe you actually made that argument. If I make something good after I created it, what did I do? I made it better. that is exactly what the Quran says.

You are not just supposed to just read the Quran, but you are supposed to reflect upon it!

Quran 47:24 Do they not then reflect on the Quran? Nay, on the hearts there are locks.

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Think about it this way if this verse wanted to say that our form is perfect as you claim, why didn't it just say "And we have made your form perfect" rather than "We have formed you and made better your form". Do you get the difference?
The simple answer is that it didn't . You just brought me the evidence that you're wrong ! And if you look at Surrah of Tiin , you'd find a verse saying so .

Exactly, it didn't. The verse said that we have been formed and our form was made better. And because of that process: Surah at Tiiin tells us we have been made in the best of moulds.

You cannot just deny one part of the Quran and accept another. They all go together.

This is refusal and unwillingness on your part. The verses are clear.

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Secondly, you claim that I forged evidence again falsely. All you need to do is examine the verse word for word and think a little.  http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=32&verse=6#(32:6:1)
There is nothing else you need. Just a thinking mind!
Oh yes I do have a thinking mind and it tells me that you just brought what contradicts your argument ! ? The same as the last one .

But you haven't brought what contradicts my argument. By your logic, you have presented a verse that contradicts the Quran! LOL. Nope that is not what (Quran 95:4) was saying at all.

Quran 32:7 says that creation was made good after its initial design and that is how mankind was created. Quran 95:4 says that humans were made in the best of moulds/stature.

Now connect the dots.

1.) Creation and humans were made better than the initial design
2.) Humans were made in the best of mechanism/shape
 The connection: Through the process of making everything Allah creates better, humans were made in the best of mechanism/moulds/shape.

You interpret the verses together, you do NOT favor one verse over the other! That is wrong!

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It again uses the word (ahsan) meaning to make everything better. Look at that link I just posted. Look at it twice. And read the word for word translation when it comes to verse 7. It SPECIFICALLY SAYS: "Allah has made good everything he created". That means everything that was created was made better/good. It doesn't really take that much power to understand this. Rather you say the human form is perfect. Again, if the Quran wanted to say the human form is perfect in that verse--would it have been worded this way?? Of course not!
I see the saying of Allah appearing in you :

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them].

Other signs in Quran and Hadith make it clear . But you ignorantly take one sign at a time the way it suits your desire and explain it however you like . After all of this , I started to doubt that you lack knowledge in language , rather , you're just stubborn .

Again, you have failed to address me point! Why do you keep changing the subject?? I think you and I both know that I am right on this one.

That verse is clear:

(Quran 32:7) ...has made everything He created BETTER, and He began the creation of the human...

And then you say the Hadith makes this clear. Does the Hadith need to make this verse any clearer?

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You again accuse me of ignorance even though I use a valid source that shows you word for word translations. There really is no debate here.
If we really go easy on you and say that the links you brought don't actually break your argument , how am I supposed to know that they aren't hypocrites and people conspiring . Even the companions had hypocrites among them so why should we assume that there aren't until now ? I'm just showing you what your line of thinking leads to .
[/quote]

The links I brought are literal word for word translations. You know Arabic and you know better. The word-for-word understanding is important.

Again, you change the subject. It seems to be a mechanism to avoid my clear points. Again, I know deep inside you believe I am right on this one, you are just unwilling.

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Now I hope you see who is being dishonesty and forging evidence here. I have displayed word-for-word translations that there is no doubt of. But nice try.
Further, you keep saying I am ignorant. But, who is it that has really displayed ignorance now that you see the word for word translation?

Yeah , nice try hiding your failure through flashy words like "trusted , authorized , no doubt , no debate here , word for word , dishonesty , working mind" . Just a load of arrogance boosters .

You no Arabic. That is the sad part. Denying a word for word translation of the Quran? You can go word for word. You know Arabic! Seriously, this is just dishonesty to a new level. This defense mechanism you use is simply not working for you, it does you no favor. Read the Quran word for word and translate it word for word. There are many lexicons you can buy, many websites you can use. The Quran is so clear on that, but you like you perverse it!


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In the end , you bring what kills your argument , so yes , no debate here !

Nothing killed my argument except your incompetence.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: abdullah on November 01, 2013, 03:08:08 PM
assalamualykum
I hope y'all realize y'all are going in circles. Brother Black Muslim, the only thing that is contradictory with the ahadith is human evolution, all other forms of evolution are not contradictory with the ahadith. Anyways the evidence for human evolution is extremely weak. As for bro mclinkin their is no point of refuting harun yahya as his points are extremely weak. Also why do u keep ignoring my argument for the 100% authenticity of the sunnah
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on November 01, 2013, 05:22:47 PM
assalamualykum
I hope y'all realize y'all are going in circles. Brother Black Muslim, the only thing that is contradictory with the ahadith is human evolution, all other forms of evolution are not contradictory with the ahadith. Anyways the evidence for human evolution is extremely weak. As for bro mclinkin their is no point of refuting harun yahya as his points are extremely weak. Also why do u keep ignoring my argument for the 100% authenticity of the sunnah

Extremely weak is an understatement! The sad part is Muslims are sourcing him as some kind of proof.

I am not ignoring your argument, I am further examining hadiths as we speak. 100% authenticity is not a fact, not so far to my understanding. Its like Christians claiming their bible has 100% authenticity even though it has clear contradictions within it and rejects reality!
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on November 01, 2013, 06:02:07 PM
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I expect that you get your points. My Arabic is not as good as it should be, I am still learning. I've been taking Arabic classes for over 2 years. I've improved tremendously and it has helped me with understanding the Quran.
You do realize it is possible to do it in English , right ? And from what we see , those lessons didn't help much or at all .

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You have not shown me from my arguments are invalid from the Quran. I showed you how your arguments are invalid from the Quran as I have even presented a word for word translation.
Dishonesty , huh ? as we say "He accuses me of his disease and slips away" . What really happened is that you made some absurd theories to justify rejecting half the religion . And I simply answered them . That's a subject we can go through later .

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Show me where exactly I said all the writers conspired.
Remember saying that they were all Persians and only appeared after the fall of the empire ? If this isn't what you meant , what were you hinting ?

I have not made the same fallacy, i literraly present scholarly interpreations of the Quran to show my points. I don't agree with people, I agree with some of their points. Canadian Atheist made a good point.

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I have responded to the core, and you have not made a refutation at all--I have shown you your mistakes through an irrefutable word for word translation. Are you going to deny such a translation. Or would you rather go with your own favorable translation?
Why do I feel like I'm dealing with a kid ? The same translator you brag about shuts your argument ! Are you really blind or what ?! And instead of ranting "I made an argument that you can never address" why not actually try ? And I DON'T care what kind of a translator you bring . On what basis do you say this site isn't biased or wrong at all ? You accused the first scholars of so and now you act like these are angels ?! What makes it worse is how you disprove yourself with what you bring ! There is no difference between this and saying that I should believe evolution because "Scientists" believe in it . The same way Atheists say we should be so because there are Atheists among scientists .

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So I guess you don't accept the Quran in 19:101. I didn't call all the companions hypocrites. You completely rejected my point on that thread. I said how would Bukhari know who the hypocrites were if Muhammad himself didn't know. Big difference from how you interpreted it.
THAT'S THE POINT ! Do you really fail that horribly in understanding or are you acting like you don't understand ?! I bring you signs saying that the prophet DID know the hypocrites as Allah told him and I get this in response ? YES , you ARE accusing them all with hypocrisy since you say we can't trust any of them . The funny thing is , since we can't trust them , anyone can say they corrupted Quran . Another point killing your doctrine of rejecting Hadith and you still don't answer .

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Again, you are over-reaction to a completely logical point.
Premise 1: The Quran is the word of God and the word of it does not lie
Premise 2: The Quran said that some of the prophet's companions are hypocrites and only Allah knows who they are.
Conclusion: Therefore, what the Quran said about the hypocrisy of some companions is not a lie. And some companions are hypocrites.
You weren't very happy with that Quranic verse. It seems to have bothered you. How could some of the guys you really trust be hypocrites? It must be really damaging to you.
You really need serious treatment . I don't know if it's blindness or madness of greatness - you wish - or something else . What logic are you talking about ?! The sun can be green with your logic ! I might lose my mind trying to reason with you !
Your line of thinking is completely misleading and twisting the meanings . Are you that much a coward not to answer a verse of the same book you - unjustly - claim to follow ? Quran itself says that Allah told the prophet of the hypocrites . So yes , Allah doesn't lie , but YOU LIE .

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I have simply posted a quranic verse and showed you that there are hypocrites among the companions. These verses you posted just tell the prophet to fight against the hypocrites when he sees them. What's funny is this verse is also acknowledging that some companions are hypocrites. Are you saying that Muhammad was able to find all the hypocrites? No, because Quran 19:101 tells us that only Allah knows who they all are and Muhammad does not know.
You should be arrested for trying to make fun of people's intellect . Already explained , you don't just reject Sunnah , you even reject what you don't like of Quran .

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You have the nerve to say I have nothing to back this up while I gave you the direct word-for-word Arabic translation?
I'll use your same logic and say that I don't trust this site - which actually works against your belief - because I can't know who's a Muslim and who's a hypocrite . How can we ever know that there are any Muslims ? Maybe I am one of the hypocrites . Maybe Osama is . Maybe you are . Of course , I'm just talking while standing from your point . Screw the translator . You rejected greater and more trusted sources . But of course , you'd do anything possible to prove this madness .

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I have the Quran to back me up. This is completely reasonable.
Quran is innocent of you .

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I support whichever belief is reasonable. The Quran supports evolution, simple as that. I have demonstrated it time and time again.
Oh really ? How come you failed time and time again in bringing a single verse saying so ? I'll repeat , you bring what proves you wrong !

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Seriously, how does someone interpret this: "(Quran 64:3) ..He designed you and made your design better.. (this is the literal word for word Arabic)" as Allah made our human design perfect. If this verses wanted to say that, then it would have said "He designed you good" Rather then "he designed you and made your design good". Do you get the difference? And then you accuse me of changing the meaning of the Quran? What?
We're not to interpret this because it's simply NOT from Quran . You just forge verses too !
http://quran.com/64
"Hey Johny , make me a sandwich , and make it good will ya ?" Oh yes , if we go with you , it would mean that the sandwich evolved !!

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Indeed mankind was created in the best of moulds/stature. Through what mechanism? Quran 32:7-9 highlight it. Through the mechanism of making creation better.
Oh no mister . You see , Quran says Allah "Created people in best shape" . It just says creating . No evolution here . Of course , this isn't the main argument I stand on but just to show you how it gets when we explain verses in the way you do by cutting them and making them however one likes .

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I don't like this emotional nonsense.
Uh-huh , the fake face is falling off again I see . Well then , we'll see who's being emotional and demonstrating issues .

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So you say that science hasn't proved evolution? Factual error.

So you say that I didn't prove the Quranic support of evolution. Another factual error.
Did your blindness get to me ? Because I don't see you proving it . You just say - again - that you're right and I'm wrong .

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Well looks like you haven't seen enough cases and of course you are not a scientist in biology. The ignorance you display reveals that. Nor are you understanding of the Quran, the ignorance you display reveals that to.
Well crack that make-up more pal . I would be more comfortable if you come flat out instead of all this acting . Ignorance , huh ? Says the one who refutes himself and still says that what he refuted is right .

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Further, you say that I don't have a degree in Islam. Of course I don't. But, I look at scholarly interpretations of the Quran and I also have my own lexicon. I even provide you me sources. You just make statements on evolution and say that all the evidence is forged and make all of these excuses because you don't like the idea of humans being formed form monkeys. Humans must be too high on the throne for that?
And what do we call the fallacy of lying that the other said something he didn't ? I said that evolution is wrong simply because it has no proof at all . Not in Quran OR in science .

Yes , humans are reminded over and over of how they are born and that they were nothing . It still doesn't change the fact that they were favored on the worlds . And trying to make it look like I refuse this myth because I think we're too high is a real cheap shot .

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The multiverse is not backed by evidence so I do not exactly believe we have completely understood it. I would say that Allah can create whatever he likes.  If the multiverse exists, then it doesn't at all disprove God.

Further, the Quran supports the idea of many universes:
Oh yeah ? they claim there is , so what do you say ? And to make it get to you , they mean that since the universes are infinite then they weren't created and there is no God . Of course , there is nothing to back this nonsense .
Quran talks about other universe yes , but you are not to witness them with your puny knowledge . If mankind and Jins could escape the heavens then let them try .

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Looks like you will enjoy my article refuting him? I'm about 25% done, It should be done by January.
It doesn't matter if you prove him wrong . I don't base my belief on others . But I just have a hunch that what you call refutation is nothing more than a load of nonsense .

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The Quran does support evolution. I have shown you time and time again. I don't understand this unwilling nature of yours.
Well , I couldn't understand the huge amount of ignorance you demonstrate . Get used to it , we don't always get what we want .

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I do believe evolution is right. And the Quran does say it is right. Just like that. Yeah. Its not necessarily an argument, it is a stating of fact. I have displayed my arguments later in that post  :)
Yeah yeah , keep with the fake smiles . They'll fall off eventually . And arguments ? If you call ignoring everything you can't answer , forging verses to support you , and using flashy terms as arguments , then yes , they would be arguments .

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You cannot understand evolution or the trinity or anything for that matter, unless you study it. Further, you cannot deny something you don't understand and call yourself honest.
Well , you also didn't study a thing in Islam , so you can't understand it . We only need someone to make a "You don't say" face here .
I do know of what you take as evidence for your doctrine . And I know enough to say that it's crap . The real dishonest person is the one altering Qruan here .

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There is no proof of God. that is fact and the Quran mentions it. We can debate this at another time. It would have been better if you haven't blocked me from YouTube. How noble of you.
Noble or not , here we are arguing . And since you don't believe there is proof for God , go make your own religion !

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Are you saying that Allah creation of the world is stupid? Take that back immediately and repent.
Go check your eyes again because you seem to see everything in outrageous ways . I'm saying that YOUR view of things is stupid Clear enough ?

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This is your weakest part of the argument. Read the verse again.  I cannot believe you actually made that argument. If I make something good after I created it, what did I do? I made it better. that is exactly what the Quran says.
Oh lord , give me strength !! How am I supposed to make it reach your thick skull ?! You first believed and then based your view of the entire universe on that false belief . That's how you fake evidence . You just decide that it's right . And when something appears which you want an explanation for , you just say "evolution" . The same as worship of gaps . If I was a language teacher I would give you minus 10 !  Since you do understand some Arabic , read this . If you still don't understand , there is no hope !
http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?idfrom=3477&idto=3477&bk_no=48&ID=2939

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You cannot just deny one part of the Quran and accept another. They all go together.
Say that to yourself in the mirror . You're the one who accused the companions thorough miserable explanation of one verse and STILL don't answer me bringing another verse blowing your argument .

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The links I brought are literal word for word translations. You know Arabic and you know better. The word-for-word understanding is important.
Again, you change the subject. It seems to be a mechanism to avoid my clear points. Again, I know deep inside you believe I am right on this one, you are just unwilling.
Pathetic indeed . So they are word to word translation ? So what ? That doesn't prove them right . And again , you don't answer the fact that they are against you .
And allow me to slap you out of your lala world once again . I know deep inside that you're plain wrong . You're the deluded one who thinks that he's right and the majority of people are unwilling . You're the one who think he's a genius who discovered what the entire Islamic nation didn't for over a thousand years . So enough with the drama and try actually answering something .

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You no Arabic.
I is sorry sir . I no understand you .

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That is the sad part. Denying a word for word translation of the Quran? You can go word for word. You know Arabic! Seriously, this is just dishonesty to a new level. This defense mechanism you use is simply not working for you, it does you no favor. Read the Quran word for word and translate it word for word. There are many lexicons you can buy, many websites you can use. The Quran is so clear on that, but you like you perverse it!
And what's your point after this wall of rant and whining ? Again - for over 9000 times - the same website you use is against you . And if we assume that it isn't , I won't trust it because there can be hypocrites among its admins . If you want to deem them as holy figures which never make mistakes or lie then you may just go worship them .

And for this reason , for this headache , I stopped arguing with you before . I'm not even sure anymore if the most brilliant man on earth can ever make you understand ! A huge ego and arrogance alongside ignorance that doesn't lack in size as well . What a deadly combination ! I'll need a lot of aspirin if I'm to keep going like that . If the next post is the same avoidance of answering and ego boosting , I might just stop so that I can keep my sanity .
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: abdullah on November 01, 2013, 09:05:39 PM
Salam bro mclinkin
I already showed you the difference between the ahadith and the sunnah. The sunnah has been passed on by so many people in each generation tthat it is impossible for it to have been corrupted. Instead of refuting harun yahya try to refute the Christians over at evolutionnews.org they have much stronger points
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on November 03, 2013, 09:48:58 AM
I've ignored most of the rhetorical nonsense. I will respond only to the Quranic evolutionary points due to a lack of time.


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Why do I feel like I'm dealing with a kid ? The same translator you brag about shuts your argument ! Are you really blind or what ?! And instead of ranting "I made an argument that you can never address" why not actually try ? And I DON'T care what kind of a translator you bring . On what basis do you say this site isn't biased or wrong at all ? You accused the first scholars of so and now you act like these are angels ?! What makes it worse is how you disprove yourself with what you bring ! There is no difference between this and saying that I should believe evolution because "Scientists" believe in it . The same way Atheists say we should be so because there are Atheists among scientists . 

First rhetorical statement denied. The translation I use did not shut my argument, in fact--nothing so far from you has.

Next rhetorical statement denied.

You should care what translator I bring. An arabic speak like yourself should be able to see the word for word translation. This thing with denying that translation is nothing more than a defense mechanism on your part. You are choosing to willfully deny the clear quranic basis for evolution. I'm not sure how much patience I have for this game.

Other rhetorical statements denied.

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THAT'S THE POINT ! Do you really fail that horribly in understanding or are you acting like you don't understand ?! I bring you signs saying that the prophet DID know the hypocrites as Allah told him and I get this in response ? YES , you ARE accusing them all with hypocrisy since you say we can't trust any of them . The funny thing is , since we can't trust them , anyone can say they corrupted Quran . Another point killing your doctrine of rejecting Hadith and you still don't answer .

Muhammad did not get to know all the hypocrites. Not one verse says that. Muhammad with the aid of Allah investigated. That does not mean he was able to erradicate all hypocrites. Lets not change verse meanings here.

We have Quranic manuscripts, that's all we need to know.

Rhetorical statements denied once again.

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You really need serious treatment . I don't know if it's blindness or madness of greatness - you wish - or something else . What logic are you talking about ?! The sun can be green with your logic ! I might lose my mind trying to reason with you !
Your line of thinking is completely misleading and twisting the meanings . Are you that much a coward not to answer a verse of the same book you - unjustly - claim to follow ? Quran itself says that Allah told the prophet of the hypocrites . So yes , Allah doesn't lie , but YOU LIE .

More rhetoric. I read a verse to you and you deny a Quranic verse? I don't like to deny the Quran.

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You should be arrested for trying to make fun of people's intellect . Already explained , you don't just reject Sunnah , you even reject what you don't like of Quran .

Ironic coming from you.

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I'll use your same logic and say that I don't trust this site - which actually works against your belief - because I can't know who's a Muslim and who's a hypocrite . How can we ever know that there are any Muslims ? Maybe I am one of the hypocrites . Maybe Osama is . Maybe you are . Of course , I'm just talking while standing from your point . Screw the translator . You rejected greater and more trusted sources . But of course , you'd do anything possible to prove this madness .

Look at that, presented with proof and you being an Arabic speaker. Willful ignorance. I hope you can see yourself through a mirror.

You are given clear proof. You speak Arabic to verify the proof. You refuse to acknowledge the proof. You neglect your Arabic ability. Ironically, that is the definition of dishonesty. Like I said, I'm not very forgiving of dishonesty.


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Oh really ? How come you failed time and time again in bringing a single verse saying so ? I'll repeat , you bring what proves you wrong !

More dishonesty.

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Seriously, how does someone interpret this: "(Quran 64:3) ..He designed you and made your design better.. (this is the literal word for word Arabic)" as Allah made our human design perfect. If this verses wanted to say that, then it would have said "He designed you good" Rather then "he designed you and made your design good". Do you get the difference? And then you accuse me of changing the meaning of the Quran? What?

We're not to interpret this because it's simply NOT from Quran . You just forge verses too !
http://quran.com/64
"Hey Johny , make me a sandwich , and make it good will ya ?" Oh yes , if we go with you , it would mean that the sandwich evolved !!

Appeal to ridicule fallacy.

More rhetoric, introducing humor to a completely serious argument to reject the Quran. Dishonesty has reached a level worse than most anti-muslims. In fact, the team at Answering-Islam are less dishonest than you.

Lets go again:

(Quran 64:3) ..Formed you and made good your form..

Why didn't it just say, Allah made good your form. Rather it said, he had formed you and made that form good.

You need to be honest with yourself.

And again, the Quran repeated itself:

Quran 40:64 (He formed you and made good your form).

Now while you try to be honest, why would the Quran repeat the same thing exactly twice in the same manner. Why didn't it just say "Allah created us good". That is what you think it says, but it is clearly NOT.

Those verses are saying that your form was made good/better. But you like to reject the Quran, don't you?

Go to any Arabic speaker and ask what (ahsana) means. It means to make better, to make good from the original. But evidence doesn't convince the unwilling.

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Indeed mankind was created in the best of moulds/stature. Through what mechanism? Quran 32:7-9 highlight it. Through the mechanism of making creation better.
Oh no mister . You see , Quran says Allah "Created people in best shape" . It just says creating . No evolution here . Of course , this isn't the main argument I stand on but just to show you how it gets when we explain verses in the way you do by cutting them and making them however one likes .

Is this a debate or are you just going to reject everything I say without some reason?

Can you create through evolution? Yes. That's it. Not much to it.

You make something simple, complex. Interpret this verse in light of other verses.


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Well crack that make-up more pal . I would be more comfortable if you come flat out instead of all this acting . Ignorance , huh ? Says the one who refutes himself and still says that what he refuted is right .

You make a claim without evidence. So I deny it without evidence. I have not refuted myself. You haven't refuted me either.


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.

Yes , humans are reminded over and over of how they are born and that they were nothing . It still doesn't change the fact that they were favored on the worlds . And trying to make it look like I refuse this myth because I think we're too high is a real cheap shot .

What exactly were you implying that humans were favored over the worlds? You obviously were saying that we are too high to have a common ancestor with monkeys.

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Oh yeah ? they claim there is , so what do you say ? And to make it get to you , they mean that since the universes are infinite then they weren't created and there is no God . Of course , there is nothing to back this nonsense .
Quran talks about other universe yes , but you are not to witness them with your puny knowledge . If mankind and Jins could escape the heavens then let them try .

The Quran talks about other universes. Done. Nothing else to it.


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Well , you also didn't study a thing in Islam , so you can't understand it . We only need someone to make a "You don't say" face here .
I do know of what you take as evidence for your doctrine . And I know enough to say that it's crap . The real dishonest person is the one altering Qruan here .

Factual error.

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Noble or not , here we are arguing . And since you don't believe there is proof for God , go make your own religion !

We can debate this separately. I'm not fond of rejecting Quran like you.


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This is your weakest part of the argument. Read the verse again.  I cannot believe you actually made that argument. If I make something good after I created it, what did I do? I made it better. that is exactly what the Quran says.
Oh lord , give me strength !! How am I supposed to make it reach your thick skull ?! You first believed and then based your view of the entire universe on that false belief . That's how you fake evidence . You just decide that it's right . And when something appears which you want an explanation for , you just say "evolution" . The same as worship of gaps . If I was a language teacher I would give you minus 10 !  Since you do understand some Arabic , read this . If you still don't understand , there is no hope !
http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?idfrom=3477&idto=3477&bk_no=48&ID=2939

Rhetoric denied. False accusations denied.

Why didn't you just refute my argument? The verse is clear, you know it is. You just have some kind of complex where you always have to be right. The insecurity that is displayed is intense. I present a verse and I show you the Arabic.

Here is a word for word. You tell me I don't know Arabic. Here is also a lexicon I found on the web.

"Ahsana" means good. Lets look at the verse again:

Quran 32:7 Who made good (ahsana) everything which He created and began the creation of man.

Everything which was created was made good. Simple as that. Lets not add or delete any meaning to that verse. But, you can't do that, can you?

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You cannot just deny one part of the Quran and accept another. They all go together.
Say that to yourself in the mirror . You're the one who accused the companions thorough miserable explanation of one verse and STILL don't answer me bringing another verse blowing your argument .

You declined what I just said about evolution and you changed the subject to companions again. Why don't you address my arguments.

Did I accuse the companions or did the Quran. You know the answer. Leave this subject. Go back to evolution. Why are you reluctant to see the clear Quran? The divine Quran, not the man-made aspect of your faith.

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The links I brought are literal word for word translations. You know Arabic and you know better. The word-for-word understanding is important.
Again, you change the subject. It seems to be a mechanism to avoid my clear points. Again, I know deep inside you believe I am right on this one, you are just unwilling.
Pathetic indeed . So they are word to word translation ? So what ? That doesn't prove them right . And again , you don't answer the fact that they are against you .
And allow me to slap you out of your lala world once again . I know deep inside that you're plain wrong . You're the deluded one who thinks that he's right and the majority of people are unwilling . You're the one who think he's a genius who discovered what the entire Islamic nation didn't for over a thousand years . So enough with the drama and try actually answering something .

You deny the Quran. That does prove them right, you know Arabic. You know what the meaning of the verb "Ahsana" is. I know you do. But you are reluctant. Evidence doesn't convince the unwilling.

Then you again demean the translation. Irregardless of the word for word translation, you know Arabic. The word-for-word that I provided was to ensure you didn't overlook anything. But again, you deny it. The verse is clear, creation was made better. Done.

Then you commit the "appeal to tradition" fallacy. So, I deny that argument.

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That is the sad part. Denying a word for word translation of the Quran? You can go word for word. You know Arabic! Seriously, this is just dishonesty to a new level. This defense mechanism you use is simply not working for you, it does you no favor. Read the Quran word for word and translate it word for word. There are many lexicons you can buy, many websites you can use. The Quran is so clear on that, but you like you perverse it!
And what's your point after this wall of rant and whining ? Again - for over 9000 times - the same website you use is against you . And if we assume that it isn't , I won't trust it because there can be hypocrites among its admins . If you want to deem them as holy figures which never make mistakes or lie then you may just go worship them .

The same website is against, you! You have not shown me how this website is against me. You provided one verse that says humans were created in the best of moulds. And then you say that this verse denies another part of the Quran. You are implying that you believe that there is a contradiction in the Quran. I tell you that both those verses are accurate. Lets investigate again:

(Quran 95:4) We have certainly created man in the best of stature--Does this deny evolution? No. Does this deny 32:7 (if you say it does then you are implying a contradiction-but it doesn't deny 32:7)

By what mechanism was mankind created in the best of moulds/stature? By the mechanism of making creation better as detailed in 32:7.

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And for this reason , for this headache , I stopped arguing with you before . I'm not even sure anymore if the most brilliant man on earth can ever make you understand ! A huge ego and arrogance alongside ignorance that doesn't lack in size as well . What a deadly combination ! I'll need a lot of aspirin if I'm to keep going like that . If the next post is the same avoidance of answering and ego boosting , I might just stop so that I can keep my sanity .

Yeah, the headache I give to you. I challenge your beliefs, and you like to hide from that. You are biased against evolution without evidence to back you up. You deny the clear quranic support by appealing to fallacies and more rhetoric.

Lets highlight it again and this time, I will present both the Arabic and the English. There cannot be any counterargument to a clear sentence. "If I say that cat is brown", Then I say that cat is brown.

Quran 64:3 وَصَوَّرَكُمْ فَأَحْسَنَ صُوَرَكُمْ ۖ

1st block: And he formed you
2nd block: And made good
3rd block: your forms.

That's it. We were formed and our form was made good. Denying this is dishonest. You know Arabic.

Not only did we get formed, but our form was made good/better.

Lets think one more time, If this verse wanted to say that Allah formed you Good, why didn't it just say "And Allah formed you good" rather than "ALlah formed you and made your forms good"?

Quran 32:7 الَّذِي أَحْسَنَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ خَلَقَهُ

1st block: The one who
2nd block: made good
3rd block: Everything
4th block: He created.

That's it. Everything that was created was made good. Allah made everything he created good. If something that was created was made good. What was it made? Better, it was made better.

Not only that look at the entire verse!

Quran 32:7 Who made good everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

This verse is linking the process creation being made good/better to the creation of mankind. This is implying that mankind was formed in the same manner. A process of making creation good/better (ahsana). Not only that, that verse also uses the word for "BEGAN", this further implies the process of making everything Allah created better. So the creation of man from earth began and Allah will make it better to complete the human

Quran 32:8 Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained..

The verse right after says that AFTER the beginning of the creation of man, sexual reproduction formed. This is an improvement. A process of making creation better.

Quran 32:9 Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

After sexual reproduction, you got further proportioned (MADE BETTER!) and given higher consciousness (MADE BETTER!).




Having to break it down to this extent for you to understand is just....I don't know what it is. The best word is your blind unwilling nature.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on November 03, 2013, 10:24:08 AM
Salam bro mclinkin
I already showed you the difference between the ahadith and the sunnah. The sunnah has been passed on by so many people in each generation tthat it is impossible for it to have been corrupted. Instead of refuting harun yahya try to refute the Christians over at evolutionnews.org they have much stronger points

I agree, some parts of the Sunnah have been passed down through generations...but unfortunately, parts of the sunnah are influenced by hadiths.

Also it is not impossible for traditions to get corrupted. All it takes is a few scholars with a disagreement, and you have 2 sets of people following different Sunnahs that deviate from the initial.

Further, thanks for that website--I will work on that too.

I want to refute Harun Yahya because Muslims source him every-time I debate evolution with them. As if he makes compelling points. So instead of dealing with everyone';s misunderstanding--I can just refer them to my article debunking Harun.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on November 03, 2013, 11:03:40 AM
It is time for the father of Hanifa to rest his legs . I'll work with the advice of a teacher and stop this . I didn't do all this for you really . I did it because I was afraid for people to be fooled by this misguidance you preach .
The same as before , you haven't answered what kills your belief in rejecting Sunnah , neither did you answer me showing you and people how the site you bring works against you , neither have you answered me proving that the prophet did know the hypocrites .
Yes , I do know Arabic , that's why I keep saying that you fail to understand anything Quran says in a correct way . And if another native Arabic speaker so this , he will blame me for going this deep into trying to reason with you .
I did what I have to do .
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Al-Kahf (Cave) 29 : And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on November 03, 2013, 11:29:09 AM
It is time for the father of Hanifa to rest his legs . I'll work with the advice of a teacher and stop this . I didn't do all this for you really . I did it because I was afraid for people to be fooled by this misguidance you preach .
The same as before , you haven't answered what kills your belief in rejecting Sunnah , neither did you answer me showing you and people how the site you bring works against you , neither have you answered me proving that the prophet did know the hypocrites .
Yes , I do know Arabic , that's why I keep saying that you fail to understand anything Quran says in a correct way . And if another native Arabic speaker so this , he will blame me for going this deep into trying to reason with you .
I did what I have to do .
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Al-Kahf (Cave) 29 : And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."

The same could be said to you. But I see this as you giving up. The evidence is clear and nothing will convince an unwilling person like yourself.

I have already answered you in everything, but to you they aren't good enough.

I and ALL Muslims agree that the Quran is divine and the Hadith is manmade. Therefore, if the Quran conflicts a hadith, you support the Quran irregardless of your emotions. You don't like this, I know....I know. But in the battle between emotion and reasoned logic. Pick logic!

Further Quran 19:101 has said Muhammad doesn't know who the hypocrites were at his time. Nowhere does the Quran say that Muhammad was successful at finding all hypocrites. And if by chance, he was, when the prophet died--how exactly did he fight off the new hypocrites that carry on the hadiths?? Ironically at least two Sahih Hadith in the Muslim's compilation confirm this by admitting to 12 hypocrites masquerading as companions and who's identities were never revealed.

Further, I have shown you how the site I bring doesn't work against me and works in my favor. I also broke down everything for you in little pieces, but evidence doesn't convince the unwilling. Further, you have not at all showed me how the word-for-word translation of the Quran goes against me, you just claim you have. I have responded to your points clearly.

I provide evidence, you reject the evidence. Its been like that the entire way. And the sad part is, you reject the evidence through fallacies and rhetoric.

Yes, you do know Arabic and you keep saying that I fail to understand the Quran without providing evidence or a reason. IN fact, I provided you with a source and a breaking everything down. Yet, you still deny.

Further, I have spoken to many Arabic speakers on the word "ahsana" they ALL said it means to make better.

Not only that I have shown you the verses in context.

What more do I need to do?

You have failed in every way possible. It is just ridiculous at this point.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on November 03, 2013, 11:39:43 AM
Whenever the issue of the authenticity of reports ascribed to the Prophet of God Pbuh are raised, the sects keep bringing up verses of the Quran to try and prove that we are supposed to follow what the Prophet Pbuh said.


Why do they have to be reminded again and again that that is not the issue? There are no two opinions on this particular issue.


The 99.9% non verbatim impossible to verify reports are the real issue.

And no it is not a satisfactory state of affair to claim that dozens of "scholars" have declared these reports authentic. In a Taqleedy (to accept without questioning) system it is not difficult to cite dozens of scholars photo copying the work of each other.

And no it is not enough to say it is very complicated to explain how these scholar clones go about determining the authenticity of a report.

Simplify it.

Above all back the tall claims associated with these secondary sources.

How did the compilers of these reports for instance know which companions were hypocrites and which were not? Quran 9:101 is clear on the issue, not even the Prophet Pbuh knew.

No don't pretend to be angry answer the question. We are not insulting the companions; we are trying to identify the hypocrites among them

How did Bukhari go through 600,000 reports without making a single mistake?

Why are these reports not verbatim if they were transmitted by the same people who gave us the 100% verbatim Quran?

Why are so few reports credited to the Prophet's closest companions?

And a dozen other impossible to answer questions.

------

But the hadith story here is irrelevant. Leave that for another debate. The question here is: Does the Quran support the basic idea of evolution?

And through all the verses I provided, the answer is YES. Without a doubt. (If you disagree here, please post verses as to why and why I am wrong) Leave out ALL of the hadiths for now, leave out ALL of the rhetoric and fallacies. And just for a limited time, leave out your scientific reasons to reject evolution. Just present verses. If you cannot and every-time you do I answer you logically, I expect honesty! Nay, I BEG for your honesty! Then we can decide whether the Quran does or doesn't support evolution, irregardless of hadith or whether you think evolution is true. That is how we can remain honest. I swear to Allah that I have been and will continue to remain honest. I need you to do the same, swear here under oath. Allah does not like liars.   We both will be honest completely. Further, you need to drop all of the bias and just be unbiased and neutral to everything.  The Question is: Does the Quran support the basic idea of evolution?, This is to be answered irregardless of whether you think it is true or not.

Now, you haven't refuted those verses logically at all. Rather, you just claim that I am ignorant in the Arabic language despite giving you clear word for word translations to an Arabic speaker like yourself.

So if you are to say that the Hadith rejects evolution and we should therefore change the interpretation or meaning of the clear Quran to match Hadiths, then you are just plain wrong.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on November 04, 2013, 07:41:44 AM
You can accuse me of running away as much as you like . We all saw how you didn't respond to the points I mentioned .

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I and ALL Muslims agree that the Quran is divine and the Hadith is manmade. Therefore, if the Quran conflicts a hadith, you support the Quran irregardless of your emotions. You don't like this, I know....I know. But in the battle between emotion and reasoned logic. Pick logic!
Since you started making new misguiding claims , I'll have to respond again in this new topic .
First of all , you're not the one to tell us so . It is known before you or your 10th grandfather were born that whatever contradicts Quran in a way that cannot be explained is immediately discarded .
And I would say that you don't really follow logic , you follow desire . You see something you don't like in Hadith and just decide to deem it wrong and corrupted while the problem actually lies in you . Anything you try to bring will prove this . So again , get over yourself . This arrogance you hold is deadly .

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Further Quran 19:101 has said Muhammad doesn't know who the hypocrites were at his time. Nowhere does the Quran say that Muhammad was successful at finding all hypocrites. And if by chance, he was, when the prophet died--how exactly did he fight off the new hypocrites that carry on the hadiths?? Ironically at least two Sahih Hadith in the Muslim's compilation confirm this by admitting to 12 hypocrites masquerading as companions and who's identities were never revealed.
You can never prove what's underlined . The sign says that the prophet didn't know them when the sign was revealed . And we have verses ordering the prophet to fight the hypocrites . So rationally , if he's going to fight them , he necessarily knows them . The story of Huthaifa the son of Yaman confirms this as the prophet told him about the their names and so he wouldn't pray on them the same way the prophet wouldn't . And Quran who's innocent of you says :

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Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest

The believers are only the ones who have believed in Allah and His Messenger and then doubt not but strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah . It is those who are the truthful.

For the poor emigrants who were expelled from their homes and their properties, seeking bounty from Allah and [His] approval and supporting Allah and His Messenger, [there is also a share]. Those are the truthful.

Allah himself said he's pleased with the believers and calls them truthful . Enough said . And in the chapter of the people of Umran

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Allah would not leave the believers in that [state] you are in [presently] until He separates the evil from the good. Nor would Allah reveal to you the unseen. But [instead], Allah chooses of His messengers whom He wills, so believe in Allah and His messengers. And if you believe and fear Him, then for you is a great reward.

It says that Allah wouldn't leave people in their state until the evil is known and good is known .

So , considering the last points , the prophet did know the hypocrites because :
1 - Nothing says he never knew them until he passed away .
2 - There are signs saying Allah is pleased of the believers whom you hate so much .
3 - There's a verse saying that Allah will reveal the evil and good and tell his prophet .
4 - There are signs telling the prophet peace upon him to fight the hypocrites and to never obey them meaning that he must have known them .
Therefore , saying that the companions are hypocrites = A failing attempt to make us drop half our religion .

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Further, I have shown you how the site I bring doesn't work against me and works in my favor. I also broke down everything for you in little pieces, but evidence doesn't convince the unwilling. Further, you have not at all showed me how the word-for-word translation of the Quran goes against me, you just claim you have. I have responded to your points clearly.
Did the disc brake or what ? "Unwilling , unwilling , unwilling , unwilling" . You think that just by saying this , you make a strong argument . Sure , I also describe you with what's actually in you but I do bring things to prove it . As for the site , it says "made good" . NOWHERE does it say "Made it better" as you lied about Quran and made a completely new verse . And when I mentioned the sandwich example which explains how you don't just misunderstand but insist on misunderstanding , you shoved it off as if it's nothing . So , Arabic is against you , English is against you , and mathematical logic is against you . What do you got ?

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I provide evidence, you reject the evidence. Its been like that the entire way. And the sad part is, you reject the evidence through fallacies and rhetoric.
Bluffing means nothing .

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Yes, you do know Arabic and you keep saying that I fail to understand the Quran without providing evidence or a reason. IN fact, I provided you with a source and a breaking everything down. Yet, you still deny.
So , dishonesty and lack of shame as well , huh ? It seems even if I put the argument right under your nose , you would still claim I provided nothing .

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Further, I have spoken to many Arabic speakers on the word "ahsana" they ALL said it means to make better.
Keep this testimony of yours to yourself . I asked many religion and language teachers at my school and they all said that it means to make something good . When I asked them "Can it possibly mean to make creatures incomplete and then make them better ?" they denied giving me strange glares as if I just said a bad joke .

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What more do I need to do?
You need to drop these dangerous ideologies you hold . OR make a new sect for yourself where there's no proof of God and we still blindly believe in him , where this God has no characteristics , where the prophet of God failed to set the nation on the right path and it was lost in corruption until some genius showed up and discovered what it didn't , where there is no way for us to know a single thing about history since we dropped the only way to know it , a sect where we can't prove that there was ever a man called Muhammad .

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The 99.9% non verbatim impossible to verify reports are the real issue.
They are only impossible to verify to you . This twisted way you follow also says to deny the entire history because we can't make verify anything at all . Anyone can claim that everything written in history was corrupted and made out of conspiracies . And because you follow your selfish desire , you only discard Sunnah which seems to oppose what you prefer .

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And no it is not a satisfactory state of affair to claim that dozens of "scholars" have declared these reports authentic. In a Taqleedy (to accept without questioning) system it is not difficult to cite dozens of scholars photo copying the work of each other.
Funny , I was reading a book talking about this mentality . What's more funny is that the writer was answering Richard Dawkinz . I guess it's true , similar birds are indeed attracted to each other .
In the book , he mentions how Dawkinz denies a certain incident witnessed by millions of people who saw the sun falling on Earth . He can't deny it . The ones who saw it passed it to the ones after them , and the ones after them passed it to the ones after them in a way that it can't be forged or conspired . Of course , what the people saw wasn't the sun literally falling on Earth , still , you can never deny that they saw the incident .
That's how it was with Sunnah , the prophet peace upon him passed his teachings to the companions whom Quran tells us were truthful and honest . If you want to ignore Quran here because it doesn't suit you , it's your own business . After that , the companions passed them on to the followers . Moreover , even during the time of the prophet himself Hadith was recorded by his order and then after he passed away . What scholars did was using the logical ways Quran mentioned to determine the right from wrong . They wouldn't accept even the slightest possibility that a person would lie even to an animal . Such a thing will make them discard him immediately . And you try to compare this study to a school game - O one who has no shame - and say that there is NO WAY these people remembered every word of what they were told . The simple fact that there are 5 years old during these days memorizing Quran proves you wrong . This is in our days , so what do we say about the prime of the Islamic nation when it wasn't difficult for anyone to remember a poem of 200 parts ? So when you try to make it look like some hypocrites showed up suddenly hundreds of years ago and decided to forge Hadith it's actually out of ignorance of what really happened or stubbornness .
Again , bluffing does nothing .

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How did the compilers of these reports for instance know which companions were hypocrites and which were not? Quran 9:101 is clear on the issue, not even the Prophet Pbuh knew.
Already answered .

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No don't pretend to be angry answer the question. We are not insulting the companions; we are trying to identify the hypocrites among them
Yes you are insulting them and yes it's vulgar . Allah tells us that he's pleased of them and the prophet peace upon him favors a group of them for their faith and morals and willingness and you say that maybe they were "Kuffar" !? What would you feel if I say so about you ? I can easily do so and you can't blame me .

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How did Bukhari go through 600,000 reports without making a single mistake?
First of all , just because you can't , it doesn't mean others can't . Talking about emotions ? Well , here you are rejecting this simply because you think it's not possible . Maybe you'd deny someone memorizing the entire Quran as well because you think it's impossible . Let me tell you this : It doesn't go the way you like or dislike .
Secondly , Bukhari did make a number of mistakes and so did other scholars . But to claim that they ALL didn't notice forged hadith or sayings , you're then trying to make fun of our intellect and of an entire nation going from the first day of revelation until now after over 1435 years . The entire nation cannot agree on something false .

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Why are these reports not verbatim if they were transmitted by the same people who gave us the 100% verbatim Quran?
The noble Quran is to be kept the same alphabet by alphabet . Allah says so . Sunnah on the other hand is the second source of teachings as it is also a revelation . When it comes to Sunnah , it is the meaning which is kept the same . And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that except for you . a few words with the same exact meaning can be different , a companion may have heard a part from the prophet but not the rest because he left or any other reason , a companion may have seen a part of an incident and the other saw another part and the third as well , nothing's wrong with that at all . If so , bye bye history . Forget history , we won't be able to claim that anything said about someone is true because the word "and" is missing from the story telling of a person and exists in the story of the other ,  or maybe the other one corrupted what the first has said and added "and" .

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Why are so few reports credited to the Prophet's closest companions?
Hold it , come again ? Either I misunderstood or you just made one big fat lie .

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And a dozen other impossible to answer questions.
Well , my little cousin used to look at me and say "Why do you tell me to eat with my right hand and you're eating with the left ?" and I answer "It IS my right hand ! It's only your left . If you come here and turn around it will become your right" and he does and then opens his mouth in amazement saying that I can never explain to him how this mysterious phenomenon happens . Guess what happened one year later . On the other hand , I have questions disproving your way which you haven't answered in two weeks or so . Compare this to me answering you right away . I'll copy them - again - at the end of this reply .

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The question here is: Does the Quran support the basic idea of evolution?

And through all the verses I provided, the answer is YES. Without a doubt.
And I proved to you time and time again that Quran has nothing to do with this ideology . So stop with bluffing , it's really getting ridiculous . We were one sign out of many which you misquote and alter and you still can't see how you brought what contradicts your argument . If this one single point was so fruitless that I keep repeating and you keep ignoring then a question rises about your honesty and your ability to understand outside what you're forced to believe because "Scientists" said it's right .

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Leave out ALL of the hadiths for now, leave out ALL of the rhetoric and fallacies. And just for a limited time, leave out your scientific reasons to reject evolution. Just present verses. If you cannot and every-time
Quran , Sunnah , and science , all of them step on this hypotheses - Yes , I dared and called it so - and prove it wrong all the time . You fail to show a single sign supporting it , you fail to disprove Hadith which discredits it , and the entire gang of evidence-faking pseudoscientists fail to prove evolution and so they judge that whatever happens is because of evolution .

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I expect honesty! Nay, I BEG for your honesty! Then we can decide whether the Quran does or doesn't support evolution, irregardless of hadith or whether you think evolution is true. That is how we can remain honest. I swear to Allah that I have been and will continue to remain honest. I need you to do the same, swear here under oath. Allah does not like liars.   We both will be honest completely. Further, you need to drop all of the bias and just be unbiased and neutral to everything.
I swear with the almighty Allah the lord of the great throne and heavens and Earth and what's between them that's you are the one being either dishonest or lying or biased . I said it and I'll say it again : Bluffing does nothing . All these emotional attacks you make on me backed up by nothing are also nothing . I am being honest . The one who's not honest is the one who fears dealing with what contradicts what he wants to believe . Trying to make it look like I blindly follow scholars and say evolution is wrong because they say so is cheap . I believe it's wrong because I saw and keep seeing evidence it's wrong .

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Now, you haven't refuted those verses logically at all. Rather, you just claim that I am ignorant in the Arabic language despite giving you clear word for word translations to an Arabic speaker like yourself.
Yes I answered your false explanations both logically and literally . I showed you that "Make good" doesn't in any world mean "Make something better after it was incomplete" . You are the one trying to make his way through this by spamming "You're dishonest , the sign is clear , I give a word for word translation" . And since it's become so pointless to keep going like this , further repentance might make me stop in this subject and just focus on defending Sunnah from your allegations .

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So if you are to say that the Hadith rejects evolution and we should therefore change the interpretation or meaning of the clear Quran to match Hadiths, then you are just plain wrong.
We don't need to change anything . It is you who needs to change his false ideology and abandon false interpreting of the noble Quran .

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1 -You claim that Quran says it is the only source . Then why does Quran itself tells us to ask others ?

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And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not! -

2 - The ones who wrote Hadith did follow the teachings of Quran and used its way .

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A - Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."
B - O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.
C - And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you,
D - O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.

In the first one , Quran gives instructions to ask for evidence in anything and not accept whatever told . In the second one , Quran tells us to be investigate what we are told . In the third one , Quran tells us to be patient in investigating evidence . In the fourth one , Quran tells us to not accuse with no proof .
Now , these rules are done correctly by the scholars of Hadith while you who deny Sunnah do the opposite . You don't follow the third one which tells us to be patient in finding evidence . When one writes Hadith , he travels great distances to make sure of every single piece of information he is told . And you who sit in your house with air conditioning have no right object on this method . And when it comes to the forth one , Allah tells us to avoid negative assumptions while you simply say Hadith is corrupted and that the writers are liars and hypocrites . You even go to call the companions hypocrites !!

3 - History mentions a huge range of claims and accusations against Quran and else . Why don't we EVER hear about deniers of Sunnah in the time of the prophet peace upon him and his companions ? Why didn't anyone at all say that we must ONLY follow Quran and abandon anything else ? You talk about baseless theories accusing Hadith and I'm talking rationally here . If this path you're going down is really true , then how come no one noticed ? There's a difference between different explanations of verses and between an essential matter such as this .


4 - Through this method which you hate so much and make fun of , we know that there is a man called "Muhammad" and that there are people who lived with him called "Companions" and that Allah sent a book to him called "Quran" . So without this method , we loose our history . And based on that , anyone can deny that there was ever a man called Muhammad - peace upon him - and and deny that there were companions . In fact , anyone can deny anything with this method you follow . I for example can deny that there was world war one . How can you ever object on me ? I didn't see it and only heard about it from people who heard about it from others . Then it must be a fable .
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on November 05, 2013, 10:31:50 PM
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You can accuse me of running away as much as you like . We all saw how you didn't respond to the points I mentioned .

Which points? I responded to all of them except the ones where you are sarcastic and insult. Please post the points again.


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Since you started making new misguiding claims , I'll have to respond again in this new topic .
First of all , you're not the one to tell us so . It is known before you or your 10th grandfather were born that whatever contradicts Quran in a way that cannot be explained is immediately discarded .

The claims were not misguided. Are you seriously comparing the authenticity of hadiths to the Quran?

Secondly, I love your next point, we should discard hadiths that contradict the Quran. Then we got a LOOONG way to go in discarding Hadiths. We can start with the Apostasy ones, the music ones and 'grow your beard ones' and of course the ones that go against evolution  :D.


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And I would say that you don't really follow logic , you follow desire . You see something you don't like in Hadith and just decide to deem it wrong and corrupted while the problem actually lies in you . Anything you try to bring will prove this . So again , get over yourself . This arrogance you hold is deadly .

If I follow what I desire, I wouldn't have ever became Muslim. Trust me on that point.

I follow what is reasonable. Chinese whispers are not reasonable to follow.

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Further Quran 19:101 has said Muhammad doesn't know who the hypocrites were at his time. Nowhere does the Quran say that Muhammad was successful at finding all hypocrites. And if by chance, he was, when the prophet died--how exactly did he fight off the new hypocrites that carry on the hadiths?? Ironically at least two Sahih Hadith in the Muslim's compilation confirm this by admitting to 12 hypocrites masquerading as companions and who's identities were never revealed.
You can never prove what's underlined . The sign says that the prophet didn't know them when the sign was revealed . And we have verses ordering the prophet to fight the hypocrites . So rationally , if he's going to fight them , he necessarily knows them . The story of Huthaifa the son of Yaman confirms this as the prophet told him about the their names and so he wouldn't pray on them the same way the prophet wouldn't . And Quran who's innocent of you says :

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Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest

The believers are only the ones who have believed in Allah and His Messenger and then doubt not but strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah . It is those who are the truthful.

Firstly, You have failed to show that Muhammad has dealt with all of the hypocrites at his time. Secondly, and even more importantly, you have failed to show that Muhammad has dealt with all the new hypocrites that came after he died.

What argument do you really hold? Just more excuses.

For the poor emigrants who were expelled from their homes and their properties, seeking bounty from Allah and [His] approval and supporting Allah and His Messenger, [there is also a share]. Those are the truthful.

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Allah himself said he's pleased with the believers and calls them truthful . Enough said . And in the chapter of the people of Umran

Hypocrites =/= believers.


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It says that Allah wouldn't leave people in their state until the evil is known and good is known .

So , considering the last points , the prophet did know the hypocrites because :
1 - Nothing says he never knew them until he passed away .
2 - There are signs saying Allah is pleased of the believers whom you hate so much .
3 - There's a verse saying that Allah will reveal the evil and good and tell his prophet .
4 - There are signs telling the prophet peace upon him to fight the hypocrites and to never obey them meaning that he must have known them .
Therefore , saying that the companions are hypocrites = A failing attempt to make us drop half our religion .

1.) Nothing says the prophet dealt with All hypocrites--he did do an effort of course
2.) Again, hypocrites are not classified as believers. People who fake being believers are hypocrites.
3.) Now, you bring up a good point here!  Indeed Allah does distinguish the good from the bad and he definitely has aided Muhammad and us, but again, I ask where does it say that all the hypocrites past, present and future have been dealt with. Especially the ones who write hadith?Further, this verse is probably better understood by saying that Allah will actively continue revealing the hypocrites to us. This is a continuous process! This shows that not all hypocrites are being dealt with at once, rather Allah has done so once in the battle of Uhud and he will continue to do so today. It is a continuous process. So all the hypocrites have not really been dealt with.
4.)Indeed there are some companions who were truthful and probably have said good things, but it is obvious by reason and the Quran that there are hypocrites among them.

Ironically your own sources, support my point

Ironically Bukhari's own report clearly points to this fact especially after his, Prophet's Pbuh demise:

Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "Some of my companions will come to me at my Lake Fount, and after I recognize them, they will then be taken away from me, whereupon I will say, 'My companions!' Then it will be said, 'You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you."
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 76, Hadith 584

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Did the disc brake or what ? "Unwilling , unwilling , unwilling , unwilling" . You think that just by saying this , you make a strong argument . Sure , I also describe you with what's actually in you but I do bring things to prove it . As for the site , it says "made good" . NOWHERE does it say "Made it better" as you lied about Quran and made a completely new verse . And when I mentioned the sandwich example which explains how you don't just misunderstand but insist on misunderstanding , you shoved it off as if it's nothing . So , Arabic is against you , English is against you , and mathematical logic is against you . What do you got ?

Unwilling really is the best word for this type of dishonesty.

Again, I have explained why it says "made better". IF you make good everything that you created, what did you do? You made it better--that is a simple line of reasoning. Further, you disregarded the verses after it that further demonstrate that creation was made..better.

Further I have given you 2 more verses that show this point:

Quran 40:64 [Allah] formed you THEN (fa) made good your forms
Quran 64:3 formed you then (fa) made good your forms

In arabic (waaw) translates as "and". Thumma and Fa both respectively translate as Then. Fa also carries a meaning of 'thus'. So lets think about it. You were designed..Time lapse..then your design was made good.

Was made good. Meaning made better than the initial. Its not rocket science. But it is "unwilling''.

In Quran 32:7 if Allah wanted to say that creation is good, why did he word it in that way implying that creation was MADE good through a process??

The sandwhich example was nothing more than an appeal to ridicule, I had no idea that you actually meant something like this. I cannot believe I have to even address it.

Firstly, if I say that I made the sandwhich then I made it good (as the Quran says about creation), That means I improved upon the sandwich.

The reason why your sandwhich Analogy fails is because you use the word "good" as a descriptive adjective! In the Quran it is a VERB. . You can verify it by going to the word for word translation.

You said "I made this sandwich and I made this sandwich Good". The word good you used here is an adjective. Rather the better sentence is that " I made better this sandwich".

The verb Better is defined as "to make good or to improve". The Arabic verb Ahsana means the verb "to make good", it is not an adjective.

The problem with using the word 'good' is the English language. Good isn't and cannot be a verb. A word that means to make good that is a verb is 'better'.

In fact, Sahih international translated 32:7 as Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

Perfected: Make something BETTER.

 Now, you are suggesting that the Quran says in 32:7 that creation is Good. If that was the case, why didn't the Quran simply say "Who creates everything Good" or "Everything is created Good" instead of saying "I have made good/better everything which I created" or "I have perfected everything which I created".



Personally, I feel like this verse is clear, in fact you should read the verses after, they describe HOW Allah has made humanity better! First Allah began the creation, then he made sexual reproduction, then he further proportioned us (made us better from the beginning state of creation mentioned in 32:7).

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Keep this testimony of yours to yourself . I asked many religion and language teachers at my school and they all said that it means to make something good . When I asked them "Can it possibly mean to make creatures incomplete and then make them better ?" they denied giving me strange glares as if I just said a bad joke .

So it looks like they agree that it means to make something good/better as a verb. But they, like you, are raised denying evolution in their culture so they deny.

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You need to drop these dangerous ideologies you hold . OR make a new sect for yourself where there's no proof of God and we still blindly believe in him , where this God has no characteristics , where the prophet of God failed to set the nation on the right path and it was lost in corruption until some genius showed up and discovered what it didn't , where there is no way for us to know a single thing about history since we dropped the only way to know it , a sect where we can't prove that there was ever a man called Muhammad .

I think quite the opposite, you need to make a new sect or redefine whatever sect you are in as "non-Quranic".

There is NO proof of God. I said before and I will say it again. The Quran does not give proof, it gives ayats!

Please read this: I'm still working on it, it has a lot more to God

http://answeringislamicskeptics.weebly.com/wiki-islam-debunked.html

There are things the prophet himself didn't know about the Quran. For example, its numerical consistency (esp. with the number 19) was never once mentioned by him anywhere. The Quran has things for people of the future too and not applicable to Muhammad.

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The 99.9% non verbatim impossible to verify reports are the real issue.
They are only impossible to verify to you . This twisted way you follow also says to deny the entire history because we can't make verify anything at all . Anyone can claim that everything written in history was corrupted and made out of conspiracies . And because you follow your selfish desire , you only discard Sunnah which seems to oppose what you prefer .

Anyone can also claim that was written up in history is true and follow their selfish desire..

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And no it is not a satisfactory state of affair to claim that dozens of "scholars" have declared these reports authentic. In a Taqleedy (to accept without questioning) system it is not difficult to cite dozens of scholars photo copying the work of each other.
Funny , I was reading a book talking about this mentality . What's more funny is that the writer was answering Richard Dawkinz . I guess it's true , similar birds are indeed attracted to each other .
In the book , he mentions how Dawkinz denies a certain incident witnessed by millions of people who saw the sun falling on Earth . He can't deny it . The ones who saw it passed it to the ones after them , and the ones after them passed it to the ones after them in a way that it can't be forged or conspired . Of course , what the people saw wasn't the sun literally falling on Earth , still , you can never deny that they saw the incident .
That's how it was with Sunnah , the prophet peace upon him passed his teachings to the companions whom Quran tells us were truthful and honest . If you want to ignore Quran here because it doesn't suit you , it's your own business . After that , the companions passed them on to the followers . Moreover , even during the time of the prophet himself Hadith was recorded by his order and then after he passed away . What scholars did was using the logical ways Quran mentioned to determine the right from wrong . They wouldn't accept even the slightest possibility that a person would lie even to an animal . Such a thing will make them discard him immediately . And you try to compare this study to a school game - O one who has no shame - and say that there is NO WAY these people remembered every word of what they were told . The simple fact that there are 5 years old during these days memorizing Quran proves you wrong . This is in our days , so what do we say about the prime of the Islamic nation when it wasn't difficult for anyone to remember a poem of 200 parts ? So when you try to make it look like some hypocrites showed up suddenly hundreds of years ago and decided to forge Hadith it's actually out of ignorance of what really happened or stubbornness .
Again , bluffing does nothing .

Its funny how far you went to avoid my point, rather than refuting them, you just called me a conspiracy theorist and said my mindset was awful.

Further, I deny things that are illogical. The sun falling on earth would not make the Earth survive, so I deny it. Simple as that.

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No don't pretend to be angry answer the question. We are not insulting the companions; we are trying to identify the hypocrites among them
Yes you are insulting them and yes it's vulgar . Allah tells us that he's pleased of them and the prophet peace upon him favors a group of them for their faith and morals and willingness and you say that maybe they were "Kuffar" !? What would you feel if I say so about you ? I can easily do so and you can't blame me .

If you think what I said is vulgar, then you must think what the Quran said was vulgar too? Because I didn't say anything, the Quran did.

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How did Bukhari go through 600,000 reports without making a single mistake?
First of all , just because you can't , it doesn't mean others can't . Talking about emotions ? Well , here you are rejecting this simply because you think it's not possible . Maybe you'd deny someone memorizing the entire Quran as well because you think it's impossible . Let me tell you this : It doesn't go the way you like or dislike .
Secondly , Bukhari did make a number of mistakes and so did other scholars . But to claim that they ALL didn't notice forged hadith or sayings , you're then trying to make fun of our intellect and of an entire nation going from the first day of revelation until now after over 1435 years . The entire nation cannot agree on something false .

Its not impossible to memorize the Quran. It is impossible for a human to not make mistakes.

They ALL probably didn't notice forged hadith sayings or mistakes in them because they came from companions they thought were good, but they were really hypocrites.

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Why are these reports not verbatim if they were transmitted by the same people who gave us the 100% verbatim Quran?
The noble Quran is to be kept the same alphabet by alphabet . Allah says so . Sunnah on the other hand is the second source of teachings as it is also a revelation . When it comes to Sunnah , it is the meaning which is kept the same . And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that except for you . a few words with the same exact meaning can be different , a companion may have heard a part from the prophet but not the rest because he left or any other reason , a companion may have seen a part of an incident and the other saw another part and the third as well , nothing's wrong with that at all . If so , bye bye history . Forget history , we won't be able to claim that anything said about someone is true because the word "and" is missing from the story telling of a person and exists in the story of the other ,  or maybe the other one corrupted what the first has said and added "and" .

I think you would make a fine Christian. Putting excuses.

The bible was 'inspired' by God. The hadiths were 'inspired' by God. Although the bible has a lot of corruptions, its basic meanings are intact. Although the hadiths have had many corruptions its meanings are intact.

A companion may have also made a big mistake. Have you ever played the telephone game when you were younger? How often is the message at the end the same as the first?

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Why are so few reports credited to the Prophet's closest companions?
Hold it , come again ? Either I misunderstood or you just made one big fat lie .

Not a lie at all.

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Well , my little cousin used to look at me and say "Why do you tell me to eat with my right hand and you're eating with the left ?" and I answer "It IS my right hand ! It's only your left . If you come here and turn around it will become your right" and he does and then opens his mouth in amazement saying that I can never explain to him how this mysterious phenomenon happens . Guess what happened one year later . On the other hand , I have questions disproving your way which you haven't answered in two weeks or so . Compare this to me answering you right away . I'll copy them - again - at the end of this reply .

Post those questions I haven't answered again, I'm pretty sure I have addressed all of them.

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And I proved to you time and time again that Quran has nothing to do with this ideology . So stop with bluffing , it's really getting ridiculous . We were one sign out of many which you misquote and alter and you still can't see how you brought what contradicts your argument . If this one single point was so fruitless that I keep repeating and you keep ignoring then a question rises about your honesty and your ability to understand outside what you're forced to believe because "Scientists" said it's right .

Here we go again. I have not misquoted, you did, I have shown earlier.

Secondly, irregardless of what you believe about evolution, we are debating the Quranic support. Evolution science itself does not matter, does the Quran support it or not.

Further, scientists didn't only say its right, they actually provided tangible evidence.

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Quran , Sunnah , and science , all of them step on this hypotheses - Yes , I dared and called it so - and prove it wrong all the time . You fail to show a single sign supporting it , you fail to disprove Hadith which discredits it , and the entire gang of evidence-faking pseudoscientists fail to prove evolution and so they judge that whatever happens is because of evolution . 

Wow, extreme level of dishonesty here. Either that or just plain ignorance.

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I swear with the almighty Allah the lord of the great throne and heavens and Earth and what's between them that's you are the one being either dishonest or lying or biased . I said it and I'll say it again : Bluffing does nothing . All these emotional attacks you make on me backed up by nothing are also nothing . I am being honest . The one who's not honest is the one who fears dealing with what contradicts what he wants to believe . Trying to make it look like I blindly follow scholars and say evolution is wrong because they say so is cheap . I believe it's wrong because I saw and keep seeing evidence it's wrong .

Good. I do not do emotional attacks that much, rather I reply to yours with like nature. .

Forget about the science of evolution for a temporary time. Investigate the Quranic support.

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Yes I answered your false explanations both logically and literally . I showed you that "Make good" doesn't in any world mean "Make something better after it was incomplete" . You are the one trying to make his way through this by spamming "You're dishonest , the sign is clear , I give a word for word translation" . And since it's become so pointless to keep going like this , further repentance might make me stop in this subject and just focus on defending Sunnah from your allegations .

And you have not answered them logically or literally!

NO what you did was change the part of speech of Good!

If I make something that I made good. What did I do? Do I even have to repeat it?

Here is a pen. I created it. Then I made it good. What did I do to the pen?

at this point, I hope you aren't being dishonest. I will hope, just ignorant or ignorantly dishonest. A word for word translation is crucial. I didn't like how you just rejected it.

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So if you are to say that the Hadith rejects evolution and we should therefore change the interpretation or meaning of the clear Quran to match Hadiths, then you are just plain wrong.
We don't need to change anything . It is you who needs to change his false ideology and abandon false interpreting of the noble Quran .

And that is what we will debate, If the Quran supports evolution--you have no choice but to discard those hadiths that reject evolution. I will show you. You need to present Quranic verses against evolution and I will continue with its support.

---

Let us begin

---

I have shown you already what Quran 32:7 has told us. Creation was perfected, improved upon, made better, made good. It is a form IV verb.

This is also demonstrated in 2 verses I have mentioned earlier

Ex. Quran 40:64 formed you then (fa) made good/better your forms. Further, the word fa here can be used denoting an brief period of time. So it seems as if this verse is telling us that quickly after the initial form of human creation it was made better. This seems to really correspond to our understanding of evolution becuase immediately once the first cell formed it goes through the mechanisms of evolution and thus the ones that survive or get more complex are made better. Secondly, fa can also be used as "thus" linking the two entities. So Allah formed you thus made your form better! This means that Allah has formed you initially in a creation that allows your form to become better/made good. This also seems to be a support for evolution as if we were formed through this process, it would allow us to improve in our creation. Thirdly many translate the word "fa" as And. Again, there is a thing with using 'And' as it separates formation from making formation better. It seems like it provides a time lapse. Why didn't the Quran just somehow tell you that your form is Good rather than implying that your form was made good after it was formed? If you would like to argue that the Quran could use different words to say the same thing, I would immediately say that saying it the way it did in 40:64 is very different from saying "creation is good", then I would say that this is repeated in another verse too (as demonstrated earlier)--so why did the Quran word the same thing the same exact way in two separate verses?! Obviously it wants to tell you that mankind's creation was made through a process.

You swore no dishonesty. I want to see your answer here.

--

Further, I just have a question to you. Allah many times in the Quran has told us many types of creation and how everything was made through a process (Quran 32:7-9 is one example we used) on how the creation of the universe took 6 periods involving stages on how Allah spread out the creation of the universe and how Allah spread out the Earth and how Allah has given us stages in our embryological development. Why would Allah all of suddenly stop forming things by stages and decide to make humans instantly and without stages? Everything that was created was by stages, except humans? What exactly is your answer to that?

Even Jesus's creation--A miraculous birth similar to Adam (Quran 3:59)--involved stages.

How about the fact that the Quran has made it plainly clear that humans were created in stages:  (Quran 71:14)  God created you in stages and how the Quran highlights those stages as being embryology and evolutionary  (Quran 32:7-9, 35:11 etc.)
--

Okay, so let us not resort to anything else. Not Hadiths, not even the scientific evidence for evolution. The Question is, does the Quran support the basic idea of gradual creation of humans. This answer does not depend upon hadiths nor modern science. It is purely Quranic.

So to make it even, empty your bais for Hadiths rejecting evolution and I will empty my bais for the scientific support of evolution. This should level everything out.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on November 06, 2013, 07:37:54 AM
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Secondly, I love your next point, we should discard hadiths that contradict the Quran. Then we got a LOOONG way to go in discarding Hadiths. We can start with the Apostasy ones, the music ones and 'grow your beard ones' and of course the ones that go against evolution  :D.
As I expected . Your reason to refuse Sunnah is simply your personal liking .

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If I follow what I desire, I wouldn't have ever became Muslim. Trust me on that point.
I can't trust you while you're showing else .

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I follow what is reasonable. Chinese whispers are not reasonable to follow.
Since you lack the most basic manner while talking about religion , don't expect respect in return . And we'll see who's words are "abracadabra" for real .

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1.) Nothing says the prophet dealt with All hypocrites--he did do an effort of course
No comment

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Allah would not leave the believers in that [state] you are in [presently] until He separates the evil from the good. Nor would Allah reveal to you the unseen. But [instead], Allah chooses of His messengers whom He wills, so believe in Allah and His messengers. And if you believe and fear Him, then for you is a great reward.

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3.) Now, you bring up a good point here!  Indeed Allah does distinguish the good from the bad and he definitely has aided Muhammad and us, but again, I ask where does it say that all the hypocrites past, present and future have been dealt with. Especially the ones who write hadith?Further, this verse is probably better understood by saying that Allah will actively continue revealing the hypocrites to us. This is a continuous process! This shows that not all hypocrites are being dealt with at once, rather Allah has done so once in the battle of Uhud and he will continue to do so today. It is a continuous process. So all the hypocrites have not really been dealt with.
I'm really not in a good condition right now , and seeing your nonsense makes it worse . Might just bring more aspirin already . A sign says Allah will reveal the evil and good , others say that the prophet did know the hypocrites , and others explain every single characteristic they have . So if you think that after all of this the companions are hypocrites , you ARE the one being hypocrite .

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4.)Indeed there are some companions who were truthful and probably have said good things, but it is obvious by reason and the Quran that there are hypocrites among them.
And it is obvious by Quran and reason as well that there are ways to know them . If you're lazy and hate looking up for that then that's your problem alone .

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Ironically Bukhari's own report clearly points to this fact especially after his, Prophet's Pbuh demise:[/quote
May Allah make the worse demise for you !

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Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "Some of my companions will come to me at my Lake Fount, and after I recognize them, they will then be taken away from me, whereupon I will say, 'My companions!' Then it will be said, 'You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you."
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 76, Hadith 584
Irrelevant . If we go easy with you , the ones mentioned here are some who apostatize after the death of the prophet peace upon him and those are few and countable . And they could be people who lived with the prophet peace upon him but didn't have the same characteristics of the companions which Quran mentioned and so they apostatized . Other sayings support this as the term "My companions" is replaced with "Men whom have been with me" . So no , there are ways to know the hypocrites and Quran - whose innocent of you as I always say - tells us that we should avoid false accusations

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O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.

Let alone if that's with the ones who passed Quran and Sunnah down to us . Accusing them means accusing Quran , there is no way out of this . I told you already , if I accuse you of blasphemy and hypocrisy , you can't say a thing . And as I always repeat of Quran :

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Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest

The believers are only the ones who have believed in Allah and His Messenger and then doubt not but strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah . It is those who are the truthful.

For the poor emigrants who were expelled from their homes and their properties, seeking bounty from Allah and [His] approval and supporting Allah and His Messenger, [there is also a share]. Those are the truthful.

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Again, I have explained why it says "made better". IF you make good everything that you created, what did you do? You made it better
I already explained , I won't waste my breath anymore .

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Quran 40:64 [Allah] formed you THEN (fa) made good your forms
Quran 64:3 formed you then (fa) made good your forms
The signs talk about embryology since it mentions humans all together . It also says Allah formred us which supports that more . Your obsession with evolution is what makes your brain alter whatever it gets to support it . The same thing evolutionists do . They find one measly bone and then have the nerve make imaginary pictures about the creature and its structure and eating habits and whatever comes to mind .

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In arabic (waaw) translates as "and". Thumma and Fa both respectively translate as Then. Fa also carries a meaning of 'thus'. So lets think about it. You were designed..Time lapse..then your design was made good.
The very beginning of your argument is wrong as I just explained , so there's no point in this .

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Was made good. Meaning made better than the initial. Its not rocket science. But it is "unwilling''.
Alright Mr hypocrite , we'll see who's unwilling .

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In Quran 32:7 if Allah wanted to say that creation is good, why did he word it in that way implying that creation was MADE good through a process??
Only the ignorant thinks the sign implies this . We already went through this and it showed some horrible lack of understanding and horrible repeating altogether .

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The sandwhich example was nothing more than an appeal to ridicule, I had no idea that you actually meant something like this. I cannot believe I have to even address it.

Firstly, if I say that I made the sandwhich then I made it good (as the Quran says about creation), That means I improved upon the sandwich.

The reason why your sandwhich Analogy fails is because you use the word "good" as a descriptive adjective! In the Quran it is a VERB. . You can verify it by going to the word for word translation.
Nice attempt to wiggle out of it . And more and more , you prove that you're ignorant of every single thing we use to understand Quran and Sunnah .
The example I made and Quran as well say that Allah made good what he created . Now you as a biased evolutionist would reach for the far and unreasonable meaning that it made something good after it was bad - exalted is Allah from what you describe - but a quick glance at Quran and Sunnah both refute what you desperately want to prove .
And you can keep the word translator to yourself . Verb or not - and even if you make it with a font size of 1000 - it doesn't change a thing . I carry something , that makes it "carried" .

You talk about translators ? Here are multiple explanations and none of them say what you say :
http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?flag=1&bk_no=49&ID=1462
http://www.alro7.net/ayaq.php?langg=arabic&sourid=32&aya=7
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/tabary/sura32-aya7.html

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Now, you are suggesting that the Quran says in 32:7 that creation is Good. If that was the case, why didn't the Quran simply say "Who creates everything Good" or "Everything is created Good" instead of saying "I have made good/better everything which I created" or "I have perfected everything which I created".
Shoot yourself in the head and maybe you can understand .

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So it looks like they agree that it means to make something good/better as a verb. But they, like you, are raised denying evolution in their culture so they deny.
Don't make my hate toward you reach the level of wanting to slap you . I really hate when someone puts words in my mouth . I hate more someone explaining Quran to his desires . If you're so blind as to see what deems you wrong as evidence for you , go to the nearest hospital to check on both your eyes and your brain .

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I think quite the opposite, you need to make a new sect or redefine whatever sect you are in as "non-Quranic".
Opposite of the opposite . Our source of teachings is both Quran and Sunnah . YOU are the new sect which showed up lately to corrupt the religion of people .

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There is NO proof of God. I said before and I will say it again. The Quran does not give proof, it gives ayats!
There's no proof of God = There is no God

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Anyone can also claim that was written up in history is true and follow their selfish desire..
So you admit that we should throw the entire history in garbage because we can't make sure .

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Its funny how far you went to avoid my point, rather than refuting them, you just called me a conspiracy theorist and said my mindset was awful.

Further, I deny things that are illogical. The sun falling on earth would not make the Earth survive, so I deny it. Simple as that.
Yet more shameless acts . Maybe I need to put this right in your face so that you see , but again , I have my doubts you would .

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If you think what I said is vulgar, then you must think what the Quran said was vulgar too? Because I didn't say anything, the Quran did.
Again , Quran is innocent of you .

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They ALL probably didn't notice forged hadith sayings or mistakes in them because they came from companions they thought were good, but they were really hypocrites.
Already refuted .

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I think you would make a fine Christian. Putting excuses.
I think that you're a Jewish man trying to corrupt our religion .


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The bible was 'inspired' by God. The hadiths were 'inspired' by God. Although the bible has a lot of corruptions, its basic meanings are intact. Although the hadiths have had many corruptions its meanings are intact.
Big , fat , lie . First of all , O one who reads not Quran , Allah didn't promise to keep the bible as it was and instead intrusted it to the people of Israel and they corrupted it . Secondly , a huge amount was altered in both meaning and word . Or maybe you believe that the Christ peace upon him was really crucified . Thirdly , Allah promised to keep the revelation safe . The revelation includes BOTH Quran and Sunnah in spite of you and every misguided one who wants us to live like animals .

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Secondly, irregardless of what you believe about evolution, we are debating the Quranic support. Evolution science itself does not matter, does the Quran support it or not.
It doesn't .

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Further, scientists didn't only say its right, they actually provided tangible evidence.
And scientists also said it's a farce :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objections_to_evolution
Everyone can make a claim . But not everyone can prove them .

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Wow, extreme level of dishonesty here. Either that or just plain ignorance.
Back at ya .
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And you have not answered them logically or literally!

NO what you did was change the part of speech of Good!

If I make something that I made good. What did I do? Do I even have to repeat it?

Here is a pen. I created it. Then I made it good. What did I do to the pen?

at this point, I hope you aren't being dishonest. I will hope, just ignorant or ignorantly dishonest. A word for word translation is crucial. I didn't like how you just rejected it.
Now I don't know what to call this fallacy but I'll still explain it . It's the same as someone who goes :
1 - All fruits are yellow
2 - Tomatoes are fruits
3 - So tomatoes are yellow
Now , you refute point one , and he acts like you did nothing and so says "You're dishonest , tomatoes are fruits and so they are yellow" and even if you say it flat out that not all fruits are yellow he'd just repeat that all are indeed yellow .


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How about the fact that the Quran has made it plainly clear that humans were created in stages:  (Quran 71:14)  God created you in stages and how the Quran highlights those stages as being embryology and evolutionary  (Quran 32:7-9, 35:11 etc.)
Have not I told you that your study of Arabic did nothing ? The creation in this one means forming . Evidence for that is the sign which says
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So blessed is Allah , the best of creators.
And if we go with you , it will mean that other than God can create . Pure blasphemy .

I wrote all of this in a hurry . I'll return later - Allah wills - to make a detailed refutation to this and the next post you'll make so that - Allah wills - I can rest my conscience and leave no room that people may be fooled by it .
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: ThatMuslimGuy on November 06, 2013, 10:07:35 AM
AsalamuAlaikum,

Im a bit confused why Surah 32:7 is being discussed. It just says Allah made creation good???


32:7
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الَّذِي أَحْسَنَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ خَلَقَهُ ۖ وَبَدَأَ خَلْقَ الْإِنسَانِ مِن طِينٍ


32:7
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Sahih International
Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.
Muhsin Khan
Who made everything He has created good, and He began the creation of man from clay.
Pickthall
Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay;
Yusuf Ali
He Who has made everything which He has created most good: He began the creation of man with (nothing more than) clay,
Shakir
Who made good everything that He has created, and He began the creation of man from dust.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on November 06, 2013, 09:55:24 PM
For the sake of time, I will only respond to Evolutionary points, All points on Hadiths can be saved for a later time.

I've looked back in my previous posts, and I never really noticed I was being rude and very Islamic of me. I'm trying to avoid as much rhetoric as possible, I shouldn't have insulted you in the first place and let this be my apology.

We will still continue evolution as this is an important topic since it goes to the origin of creation.

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Quran 40:64 [Allah] formed you THEN (fa) made good your forms
Quran 64:3 formed you then (fa) made good your forms

The signs talk about embryology since it mentions humans all together . It also says Allah formred us which supports that more

The first sentence you made makes the assumption that Adam's form wasn't made good. you made the predetermined conclusion that Adam was not formed through evolution so you reach the conclusion that it is only talking about embryology. That is a fallacy. You cannot make that assumption, WE cannot make that assumption. We must interpret the Quran through the Quran.

You said that because Allah said "formed' Instead of "created" it is talking about embryology because Adam was not formed. Further, this statement is a factual error, Adam was formed or went through a process of formation:

Allah has created us and he has also formed us.

Quran 38:71-74 "(Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: 'Truly, I am going to create man from clay.
So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.'


Adam was fashioned and was formed.

Quran 7:11 And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], and given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.

So Again, Adam was given form. So he is also included.

So when 40:64 says" Allah formed you and then made good your forms, it is absolutely referring to Adam as well.

So we must conclude that Adam's form was made better and made good from it's previous state. Notice how Allah in 7:11 differentiates creation from giving us form. This should be extremely significant to you because it contrasts creation from giving human form. Then the verse says that humanity was something primitive and then it was given form. After, Adam was given form, Allah told the Angels to prostrate. This is vital to your understanding.



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In arabic (waaw) translates as "and". Thumma and Fa both respectively translate as Then. Fa also carries a meaning of 'thus'. So lets think about it. You were designed..Time lapse..then your design was made good.
The very beginning of your argument is wrong as I just explained , so there's no point in this .

No sir it is not. The Quran explains further in detail that Adam himself went through a process of formation.


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In Quran 32:7 if Allah wanted to say that creation is good, why did he word it in that way implying that creation was MADE good through a process??
Only the ignorant thinks the sign implies this . We already went through this and it showed some horrible lack of understanding and horrible repeating altogether .

Then we will need to go through this again because I've asked innocently to many other Muslims and they tend to support what I first said. I did not bring up evolution though, I just asked for the general meaning. This is important in our understanding. Instead of screaming 'ignorance', state your reasoning. There is a reason why I repeated that statement, either I responded to your reasoning and you missed it/didn't get it or you responded and I didn't get it.

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Nice attempt to wiggle out of it . And more and more , you prove that you're ignorant of every single thing we use to understand Quran and Sunnah .
The example I made and Quran as well say that Allah made good what he created . Now you as a biased evolutionist would reach for the far and unreasonable meaning that it made something good after it was bad - exalted is Allah from what you describe - but a quick glance at Quran and Sunnah both refute what you desperately want to prove .
And you can keep the word translator to yourself . Verb or not - and even if you make it with a font size of 1000 - it doesn't change a thing . I carry something , that makes it "carried" .

You talk about translators ? Here are multiple explanations and none of them say what you say :
http://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?flag=1&bk_no=49&ID=1462

http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/tabary/sura32-aya7.html

I wasn't wiggling, I was demonstrating the problem with the english language not using the word "good" as a verb. Further, irrespective of the translation, the verses after talk about HOW Allah made humans good--through a process. This is clearly showing that Allah is starting creation and then making it good/better. Quran 32:9 is the 'good' part. And it was better than the state of Quran 32:8 and that was a better state that he state of clay in 32:7.

So there are 2 ways of interpreting that verse (32:7)

1.) Creation is Good (this verse is saying that Allah's creation is Good)
2.) Creation was made Good (This verse is not only saying Allah's creation is Good, but that it was made Good from its previous state--So everything that Allah has created, Allah has then made it Good.)

The question arises, which interpretation is best?


This is my rationale.

I also used my brother's account to ask this question in Y/A. Many have further said that 'Ahsana' means to improve upon. So this also favors interpretation 2  ;)

http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AqWOQY04Rbwt86LHC.jFbcjAFQx.;_ylv=3?qid=20131106110058AAj2o8h


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Now, you are suggesting that the Quran says in 32:7 that creation is Good. If that was the case, why didn't the Quran simply say "Who creates everything Good" or "Everything is created Good" instead of saying "I have made good/better everything which I created" or "I have perfected everything which I created".
Shoot yourself in the head and maybe you can understand .

I still feel it is a valid point. Please address it.

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Don't make my hate toward you reach the level of wanting to slap you . I really hate when someone puts words in my mouth . I hate more someone explaining Quran to his desires . If you're so blind as to see what deems you wrong as evidence for you , go to the nearest hospital to check on both your eyes and your brain .

I explain the Quran plainly by what it says. I do not have a 'desire'. I already said that if I was following my desire, I would have never became Muslim in the first place.

Put yourself in my older position, Imagine you are this happy Atheist with no restrictions and you feel confident about your beliefs. And then Imagine investigating a religion and finding out that it makes a lot of sense. Imagine going to anti-Islamic sites just to relieve your insecurity of Islam. This was me many years back. I had to tell myself that I must look at both sides of the argument and I have to be honest. That is how I structure all my beliefs.

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Secondly, irregardless of what you believe about evolution, we are debating the Quranic support. Evolution science itself does not matter, does the Quran support it or not.
It doesn't .

I already know your position and you already know my position. We are both on a quest of knowledge in this debate.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objections_to_evolution
Everyone can make a claim . But not everyone can prove them .

Like I said, we are not debating the science of evolution, I will gladly do that to you in a later time. Science debate is my favorite type, but, right now we are just doing Quran.


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Now I don't know what to call this fallacy but I'll still explain it . It's the same as someone who goes :
1 - All fruits are yellow
2 - Tomatoes are fruits
3 - So tomatoes are yellow
Now , you refute point one , and he acts like you did nothing and so says "You're dishonest , tomatoes are fruits and so they are yellow" and even if you say it flat out that not all fruits are yellow he'd just repeat that all are indeed yellow .

I have dealt with this earlier.

1-two things that say the same thing are complimenting each other on that thing
2-The Quran says that creation was made good through a process (in 32:7-9)
3-Evolution says that creation was made more complex (good) through a process
Conclusion: The Quran and evolution are complimenting each other.

Excuse the wording, its very late..

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How about the fact that the Quran has made it plainly clear that humans were created in stages:  (Quran 71:14)  God created you in stages and how the Quran highlights those stages as being embryology and evolutionary  (Quran 32:7-9, 35:11 etc.)
Have not I told you that your study of Arabic did nothing ? The creation in this one means forming . Evidence for that is the sign which says
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So blessed is Allah , the best of creators.
And if we go with you , it will mean that other than God can create . Pure blasphemy .

I have dealt with this before. Humanity (including Adam) was created AND formed. I have demonstrated this earlier.

I don't understand how it will mean that other than God can create. I don't recall saying that.

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I wrote all of this in a hurry . I'll return later - Allah wills - to make a detailed refutation to this and the next post you'll make so that - Allah wills - I can rest my conscience and leave no room that people may be fooled by it .

I look forward to it.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on November 06, 2013, 10:07:30 PM
AsalamuAlaikum,

Im a bit confused why Surah 32:7 is being discussed. It just says Allah made creation good???


32:7
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الَّذِي أَحْسَنَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ خَلَقَهُ ۖ وَبَدَأَ خَلْقَ الْإِنسَانِ مِن طِينٍ


32:7
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Sahih International
Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.
Muhsin Khan
Who made everything He has created good, and He began the creation of man from clay.
Pickthall
Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay;
Yusuf Ali
He Who has made everything which He has created most good: He began the creation of man with (nothing more than) clay,
Shakir
Who made good everything that He has created, and He began the creation of man from dust.

It does just say that Allah made creation Good.

We are debating whether this means that:

Allah's creation is Good.
or
Allah's creation was made good after its initial design

Through support of other quranic verses and the contexts of that verse (read my previous post), I support the latter view that everything in which Allah has created was then made Good.

Further, the Sahih international translation you posted up there uses the word "perfected" so those scholars agree with the latter too.

We need to determine what is the more probable explanation, and in my defense, the context and the verses right after tell me that humans were made better. First there was a stage in which we were nothing more than an extract of clay (32:7), then we were sexually capable (32:8), then we were fasioned and proportioned and given higher consciousness (Quran 32:9). The later stages are better than the preceding ones, this also favors the interpretation that this verse is saying that Allah makes creation better.

Further, even if we look at the embryology, you see stages in which Allah makes humanity better than the preceding stage.

(Quran 23:14) Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah , the best of creators.

This "another creation" was it made better than its original forms? Yes, it was made better. This also supports the latter interpretation of 32:7. So Allah is he who makes everything he created better. Quran 23:14 shows you an example of how this happens and Quran 32:8-9 show you another example.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on November 07, 2013, 07:19:00 AM
I can finally rest my conscious . That's unless I see more things which need to be shown for what they really are .


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I've looked back in my previous posts, and I never really noticed I was being rude and very Islamic of me. I'm trying to avoid as much rhetoric as possible, I shouldn't have insulted you in the first place and let this be my apology.
Your insults to me were nothing and I just shoved them aside . What really makes me angry is the lack of manner with everything in Islam . Quran , Sunnah , Nation , and even the prophet peace upon him !

I'll make it quick and clear . The verb "Ahsana" in no world means to make something better where it's mentioned in Quran . If you ridicule the example of the sandwich , here's an Arabic one . "يا ولدي أحسن صنع هذه الجرة" = "O my son , make good this jar" . Your explanation is completely wrong . If the verb here means to be good at making the jar , or to make the jar in a good way . The jar doesn't even exist yet . He's "Yuhsinuha" while making it . So now , the fallacy of

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1 - All fruits are yellow
2 - Tomatoes are fruits
3 - Tomatoes are yellow

ends here .

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Quran 38:71-74 "(Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: 'Truly, I am going to create man from clay.
So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.'

Adam was fashioned and was formed.
Indeed , I made a wrong choice of words . Father Adam - and not your buddy "Adam" - was formed out of the clay of Earth . STILL , I won't let you jump the gun and act like I admit evolution . The story of creating father Adam peace upon him is clear through Quran and Sunnah . Allah made him first of dust , then out of mud - dust with water - then out of clay - solid dry mud . And then a soul was poured into him . Iblees was ordered to bow down to him but refused out of arrogance . So he was cursed for and driven out of paradise . Father Adam and mother Hawwa peace upon the two of them lived in paradise comfortable and were ordered to not go near a certain tree or a type of a certain tree . Iblees provoked them into disobeying Allah and we know the rest . Nowhere is evolution mentioned .

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So Again, Adam was given form. So he is also included.

So when 40:64 says" Allah formed you and then made good your forms, it is absolutely referring to Adam as well.
Considering how I explained what "Ahsana" mean , this point holds no value .

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Then we will need to go through this again because I've asked innocently to many other Muslims and they tend to support what I first said
Then read the part of the literal meaning . And I told you , keep this testimony to yourself . I also asked - and didn't bring evolution - and got the same explanation from native Arabic speakers . And if we ask scholars and Arabic teachers , we'd get the same meaning . So this whole idea of "People agree with me" would actually go against you .

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Instead of screaming 'ignorance', state your reasoning.
I did before and did it again just now .

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I wasn't wiggling, I was demonstrating the problem with the english language not using the word "good" as a verb.
Fair enough . What would you say about the Arabic example ?

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Further, irrespective of the translation, the verses after talk about HOW Allah made humans good--through a process. This is clearly showing that Allah is starting creation and then making it good/better. Quran 32:9 is the 'good' part. And it was better than the state of Quran 32:8 and that was a better state that he state of clay in 32:7.
Still with the fruit and tomatoes problem I see . I made my refutation to the underlined part . As for the rest , it's the same with sign 7 . You take it as that Allah couldn't make something perfect and needed to "evolve" it . Sign 8 says that the lineage - posterity - was later made out of measly water which is sperm . Evolution isn't mentioned here in anyway . All what the sign says is that after creating father Adam and mother Hawwa peace upon them , their children were then made to be born through the mentioned way . And if you try to oppose this and say "But the sign after it says that a soul was then blown into human so it can't mean the children" I'll need to correct you . It can . It can mean that after Allah made us to be born of the aforementioned way , we were to have souls poured in us and given our senses . And if it still means father Adam , still no evolution in the way you desire . It simply means that during forming father Adam - the way Quran and Sunnah say - Allah made his lineage to be formed in a different way than his own creation . In the end , no evolution .

So there are 2 ways of interpreting that verse (32:7)

1.) Creation is Good (this verse is saying that Allah's creation is Good)
2.) Creation was made Good (This verse is not only saying Allah's creation is Good, but that it was made Good from its previous state--So everything that Allah has created, Allah has then made it Good.)

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The question arises, which interpretation is best?

    The context of the verse which deals with the steps of creation and how it was made progressively better than the preceding stage tells us that interpretation 2 is best.
    The other quranic verses which mention that humans were made in stages, each stage more complex and better than the next (be it embryology of evolution) show to favor interpretation 2.
    The fact that the Quran didn't simply state that creation is Good is also another favor to interpretation 2
    Quran 40:64 and 64:3 say that we were formed and that form was then made good also favoring interpretation 2 of that verse

This is my rationale.
I'd have to say that your rationale isn't rational really . I already explained .

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I also used my brother's account to ask this question in Y/A. Many have further said that 'Ahsana' means to improve upon. So this also favors interpretation 2  ;)

http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AqWOQY04Rbwt86LHC.jFbcjAFQx.;_ylv=3?qid=20131106110058AAj2o8h
If you were really honest and looked at the other guy's answer , you wouldn't have said this . First of all I told you , saying "people agree with me" doesn't help you . Secondly , the other answer there says

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It can mean to do a task well/best/perfect

which is what you totally ignore . Another answer says

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Yes, more or less you are correct.
it is used in the Quran over and over again with this meaning attached to it.
it also is used to mean "who is better" i.e. "waman ahsanu"
meaning that the person doing this (whatever action the verse happens to be referring to, lots of verses say this) is among the best of people.
which means to make something "Better than others" . As in doing what you do better than what others would do . And the example he used goes according to what I just said . So no , he wasn't in agreement with you . And the one before the last one says

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Close but not totally correct, make something better would mean hassana (same root)
ahsana would mean did a good job or did it well
it can also mean who is better. It depends on the sentence
which is 100% not in your favor ! The last one says

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It means reform or reclaim or something like that.
which is completely wrong and unrelated .

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I still feel it is a valid point. Please address it.
Already did in this post .

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I explain the Quran plainly by what it says. I do not have a 'desire'. I already said that if I was following my desire, I would have never became Muslim in the first place.
There are Muslims who follow their desires too . They are the same who deny the marriage of lady Aisha Allah be pleased of her because it doesn't suit their "tastes" . And no matter how much you prove to them that it's scientifically and historically OK , they'd still deny it because it's simply not going with what they like . Another example is of those who say that Jews and Christians will go to paradise because Allah is merciful . So yes , just being a Muslim doesn't mean a person never follows what he desires .

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Put yourself in my older position, Imagine you are this happy Atheist with no restrictions and you feel confident about your beliefs. And then Imagine investigating a religion and finding out that it makes a lot of sense. Imagine going to anti-Islamic sites just to relieve your insecurity of Islam. This was me many years back. I had to tell myself that I must look at both sides of the argument and I have to be honest. That is how I structure all my beliefs.
Well that explains a lot . Like how you try to defend evolution at all costs . You wanted to believe Islam is right but you didn't want to think of a second that just "MAYBE" evolution is wrong . For that reason , you try to make it look like Quran and this ideology are matching . Yeah , I know the type and know what it's like although I wasn't an Atheist neither have I been anything but a Muslim since I was born . Back then , I would hear a slander and an allegation against Islam , and because I don't know how to respond , because I didn't want to think much , I would just say "You're lying , there is no such thing in Islam" even if it was of its basis . That way of thinking is what makes some people deny the forbidding of pork . They hear that "scientists" proved pigs are clean - yeah right ! - and that Islam is wrong when it forbids it .

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Like I said, we are not debating the science of evolution, I will gladly do that to you in a later time. Science debate is my favorite type, but, right now we are just doing Quran.
When it comes to biology I would leave that to any interlocutor who knows better than me . But I still hold my own when it comes to Quran . So , science is your favorite , huh ? You'd be shocked .

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I have dealt with this earlier.

1-two things that say the same thing are complimenting each other on that thing
2-The Quran says that creation was made good through a process (in 32:7-9)
3-Evolution says that creation was made more complex (good) through a process
Conclusion: The Quran and evolution are complimenting each other.

Excuse the wording, its very late..
Well , you just repeated the same thing I said you do ! After all this explaining of the meaning of "Ahsana" and how that evolution isn't mentioned anywhere , you still go from point 2 as if I wasn't just talking about point one .

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I have dealt with this before. Humanity (including Adam) was created AND formed. I have demonstrated this earlier.

I don't understand how it will mean that other than God can create. I don't recall saying that.
This one was my mistake indeed . Father Adam was formed . I already said so in this post . As for forming and creating out of nothing , I'll explain . In Arabic , the word is "Khalaqa" which means "He created OR He formed or shaped" . When it comes to forming , Allah forms and so do his creatures with his will . That's why in tactical battles we say "create an opening" . But when it comes to creating out of nothing , ONLY Allah can do this . That's why in our world we have the law of "Energy doesn't perish or appear out of nothing" . Translated from the Arabic law so it might differ .

I'll stop here . I did what I have to and can do and the rest is to people . More ongoing would be circling around .

Before that , I'll give you a note . When you talk about the best of mankind , prophet Muhammad peace upon him , it's vulgar to call him "Muhammad" as if talking about your little brother . The same goes to the rest of prophets peace upon them all including father Adam .

Allah knows best .
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Koray on November 07, 2013, 12:08:05 PM
After reading through most of your posts i favor brother Black Muslim. Brother Mclinkin94 you almost got me into thinking that Quran supported evolution. Brother Black Muslim your latest reply was perfect. Keep up the good work. But you guys should seriously consider keeping replies a bit short. It though for most of your readers to read Encyclopedias just to keep up with whats going on. Other than that you guys rock. All of you! Thank you.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on November 09, 2013, 05:57:17 PM
@Black Muslim, here is my detailed Analysis of the Quran and here is why it, without question, supports creation of mankind involving steps.

I would like us to proceed without your insults, it would be easier for the both of us. I simply don't have time to drop by in all of these forums, manage my personal life, and working on my blogs. If we could do without you keep insulting me and saying I am not following he Sunnah, Quran nation etc. I present Quranic verses in light of other verses and science. Simple as that. If this is fraudulent, then I don't know how you made that determination.

Lets begin with the verse in question:

Quran 32:7-9 Who made good that which He created and began the creation of man from clay, Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained, Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

What you did not get before is that irrespective of the translation of "ahsana" (wheter it means creation is good or creation was made good) the Quran says the same thing!

If you want to translate 32:7 as everything that is created is good. The verses after show the process in which Allah makes you good. So you were made good though a process

If you want to translate 32:7 as everything that is created was made good through a process. The verses after show the process and how creation was made good.

Both of them share one thing in common--A process of creation. Involving steps and stages. Just as the Quran says:

(Quran 71:14)  Allah has created you in stages

What are these stages? Those stages were highlighted in the embryology verses and in the initial creation of man verses like 32:7-9.

Further we have this:

(Quran 64:3) He designed you THEN (fa) made your design good.
(Quran 40:64) He formed you THEN (fa) made your form good.


^The question we answered before is why was "fa" used instead of "thumma" to denote then? Thumma is used when a long period of time is needed for a sequential event. Fa is used when it is a shorter period of time, so it is relative. In both of those verses above, if you notice it talks about creation of the universe or the earth right before. This means that compared to the time it took for the creation of the universe or earth to form, the designing then formation of humans was pretty quick. (Side note, if we were formed and then that form was made good, what happened to that initial form? It was made better.)

Further we have this CLEAR verse:

Quran 7:11 And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], THEN (thumma) given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.

The word Thumma (then) is vital for your interpretation of this verse. We were created, THEN we got proportioned/given form!

So again a process of proportioning was involved in the creation of Adam himself in this verse. So here you have a case in which creation was made better. Just like Quran 32:7 on how Allah makes everything he created BETTER. In 7:11, you have Allah creating us THEN making that creation good/better.

Side note: Who is Adam? Adam would be the father or first of the last group of humans who got sexually isolated from the other hominids)

Can anybody seriously start denying after this that the creation of humans did not involve stages?? Especially when Quran 7:11 clearly tells us Adam's creation itself involved stages.

It is clear here that the Quran has said that the creation of humans was not an instant creation, it was a creation that involved stages of proportioning. What are these stages? These stages are highlighted in Quran 32:7.

Now, I will respond to your post in my next post.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on November 09, 2013, 06:59:14 PM
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I'll make it quick and clear . The verb "Ahsana" in no world means to make something better where it's mentioned in Quran . If you ridicule the example of the sandwich , here's an Arabic one . "يا ولدي أحسن صنع هذه الجرة" = "O my son , make good this jar" . Your explanation is completely wrong . If the verb here means to be good at making the jar , or to make the jar in a good way . The jar doesn't even exist yet . He's "Yuhsinuha" while making it .

2 problems with your statement. First, explain why sahih international translated "Ahsana" as 'perfected' rather than good? Secondly, I have shown you in my previous post that irrespective of the translation the next verses either way show you that creation was made good through a process.

Further, look at the embryology verses:

(Quran 23:14) Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah , the best of creators.

This, "new" creation, what is it compared to the others? IT was perfected, it was made better, it was proportioned.

So if you said: Oh brother, make good this jar. It could mean improve it, or build it good. But if you say: Make good this jar and begin its creation. Then you should put the molten glass into a tube and then wet the tube to make the jar and cover it up with the lid. What exactly just happened? You made the Jar good through a process.

What if I say, that I have made the sandwich then I have made it good (as compared to how Allah said in 40:64 and 7:11). What did I do to that sandwhich? I made it better than its original. Now imagine, the word for 'made it good' can be validly translated as 'made it better' (as we have seen the Arabic word 'ahsana' can mean both). Which translation would you chose? Which translation makes more sense?

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Indeed , I made a wrong choice of words . Father Adam - and not your buddy "Adam" - was formed out of the clay of Earth . STILL , I won't let you jump the gun and act like I admit evolution . The story of creating father Adam peace upon him is clear through Quran and Sunnah . Allah made him first of dust , then out of mud - dust with water - then out of clay - solid dry mud . And then a soul was poured into him . Iblees was ordered to bow down to him but refused out of arrogance . So he was cursed for and driven out of paradise . Father Adam and mother Hawwa peace upon the two of them lived in paradise comfortable and were ordered to not go near a certain tree or a type of a certain tree . Iblees provoked them into disobeying Allah and we know the rest . Nowhere is evolution mentioned .

We are debating whether humans were created gradually or not, read my previous posts. If the Quran says that humans were created gradually, then you can say that the basic idea of evolution (Gradual creation) is supported in the Quran. Then you could say that the Quran does not contradict evolution and you can be a Muslim believing evolution. Then you examine the science of evolution and determine whether it makes sense--you do this knowing that the Quran supports its basic idea.

 But, good you are getting closer to the truth. But you also missed my point. Adam was also proportioned..meaning he was made through a process...AFTER sexual reproduction. Re-read 32:7-9. Adam was proportioned AFTER Allah created sexual reproduction. That was my point that you completely overlooked.

Now, there is no Quranic indication that Adam was first made of dust then clay...no! Clay and dust are metaphorical, they both symbolize basic compounds from the earth. Allah uses clay and dust and earth interchangeably to denote the same thing. That hadith interpretation is just what the Muslims back then thought. Further you forgot many other points in the creation of Adam. Adam was proportioned.

But you missed another point of creation. Adam was also proportioned/created in a process.

(Quran 7:11) And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], THEN given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.

Further, you also missed a large mistake in one place:

(Quran 35:11) And Allah did create you from dust; then from a reproductive fluid; then He made you in pairs

We were made in pairs after reproductive fluid. That means that Adam and Eve the first pair, were made out of what?

Further you forgot another point:

(Quran 71:14)  God created you in stages

Stages explained at:

Quran 32:7 Who made good everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

This verse is linking the process creation being made good/better to the creation of mankind. This is implying that mankind was formed in the same manner. A process of making creation good/better (ahsana). Not only that, that verse also uses the word for "BEGAN", this further implies the process of making everything Allah created better. So the creation of man from earth began and Allah will make it better to complete the human

Quran 32:8 Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained..

The verse right after says that AFTER the beginning of the creation of man, sexual reproduction formed. This is an improvement. A process of making creation better.

Quran 32:9 Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

After sexual reproduction, you got further proportioned (MADE BETTER!) and given higher consciousness (MADE BETTER!).

Remember, you just agreed that Quran 32:9's proportioning applies to Adam. So you must say that Adam was proportioned after sexual reproduction by sexual reproduction because Quran 32:9 used the word "then". In this case, you testify that Adam had a father. If Adam had a father and Adam is the human that resembled us in species and the first of our species, then you testify that Adam's father is not of the same form as Adam. His father was slightly different. If this is the case then you have just agreed with science!

(Note: Adam would be the father of the last group of humans who got sexually isolated from the other hominids).

Side note: the Quran affirms the existence of other hominids on earth before US!

Quran 10:13-14 And We had already destroyed generations before you when they wronged, and their messengers had come to them with clear proofs, but they were not to believe. Thus do We recompense the criminal people. Then We made you successors in the Earth after them so that We may observe how you will do.

^This verse is addressing ALL of mankind. We ALL were successors after those criminal people in the Earth. To further prove this point:

Quran 2:30  when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successor[/u]

These two verses are complementary. Who were we succeeding in Quran 2:30? Other generations of hominids.

This is also further reiterated in this verse:

(Quran 6.133)  If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to WHATEVER He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people.

So in the end Quran 32:9 makes it clear that Adam (we) descended from something as he was born through sexual reproduction.

Further this verse explicitly calls Adam a descendant.

(Quran 3:33-34) "Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds. DESCENDANTS, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing"

THE WORDS OF ALLAH ARE NOT CIRCUMSCRIBED BY TIME,
ALTHOUGH INTERPRETATIONS ARE...

 
One may be inclined to question why no commentator of the Qur'an had in the past
written about any generation of "Mankind" living upon this earth before the creation of ADAM, in reference to the above quoted verses number10: 13 and 14 of the Qur'an?
 
ANSWER:
"For every (revealed) tiding there is a term set for its fulfillment
and in time you will come to know." Qur'an 6: 67.


"Now they have denied (the Truth); but there will come unto them tidings of the reality whereat they used to scoff." Qur'an 26: 6. 
 
TRADITIONAL BELIEVERS MAY SEEK TO DENY THESE
SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES...
 
A reader who is influenced by the age old traditional beliefs and/or by the popular Biblical Story of Creation that has found its place within the HADITHS (e.g. a questionable narration attributed the Prophet and compiled by Muslim under #039.6707 which records; Allah began the creation with clay on Saturday and ended it with Adam on Friday after the noon-prayer), may reject all the earlier presented arguments and claim; Allah had Created ADAM at the same time or rather in the same week, that He created every thing on this Earth. He/she may have no interest in pursuing scientific discoveries which in reality Glorify the Qur'an and conclusively prove that the Qur'an is not a copy of the Jewish/Christian Testaments.

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So when 40:64 says" Allah formed you and then made good your forms, it is absolutely referring to Adam as well.
Considering how I explained what "Ahsana" mean , this point holds no value .

I have already shown you that others say that Ahsana means to improve and I have shown you the lexicons and everything. But not only that I have even went with your translation to even show you how it even means. Fine, lets go with your translation (although I don't like it). Creation was made good...through a process. Still evolution was being pointed at.

So Quran 40:64 is IMPORTANT Because Adams form DID involve a process and WAS made better as I keep showing you verses about it.

 .
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I wasn't wiggling, I was demonstrating the problem with the english language not using the word "good" as a verb.
Fair enough . What would you say about the Arabic example ?

I say it doesn't matter, although I still like the translation of "better" better than "good". Either way, creation was made good/better through a process.

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Further, irrespective of the translation, the verses after talk about HOW Allah made humans good--through a process. This is clearly showing that Allah is starting creation and then making it good/better. Quran 32:9 is the 'good' part. And it was better than the state of Quran 32:8 and that was a better state that he state of clay in 32:7.

Still with the fruit and tomatoes problem I see . I made my refutation to the underlined part . As for the rest , it's the same with sign 7 . You take it as that Allah couldn't make something perfect and needed to "evolve" it . Sign 8 says that the lineage - posterity - was later made out of measly water which is sperm . Evolution isn't mentioned here in anyway . All what the sign says is that after creating father Adam and mother Hawwa peace upon them , their children were then made to be born through the mentioned way . And if you try to oppose this and say "But the sign after it says that a soul was then blown into human so it can't mean the children" I'll need to correct you . It can . It can mean that after Allah made us to be born of the aforementioned way , we were to have souls poured in us and given our senses . And if it still means father Adam , still no evolution in the way you desire . It simply means that during forming father Adam - the way Quran and Sunnah say - Allah made his lineage to be formed in a different way than his own creation . In the end , no evolution .

It doesn't matter what Allah could or couldn't do, Allah creates in whatever manner he chooses and according to the Quranic verses, his creation involved a process. .

Further, this is an attempt from you to make the Quran conform to your pre-suppositions governed by hadiths. We have established that not all hadiths are true and we are to eliminate those who go against the Quran. So hadiths are constantly in question, we are not to just blindly abide by them. So please pretend you have never read any hadith before continuing. After all the Quran says it is fully detailed.

Yes verse 32:8 does say that posterity was made from semen. But you disregarded the verse right after it (Quran 32:9). AFTER sexual reproduction happened, we (including Adam) were proportioned and given higher intelligence. So this verse CANNOT be interpreted by saying that Only Adam's posterity was made from sperm. NO! Adam himself was made from it too! Notice the word THEN in Quran 32:9. After sexual reproduction, Allah then proportioned Adam/humans and given us higher intelligence.

Why do I say that Quran 32:9 also applies to Adam, because Adam was proportioned and given form and given hearing and sight and (as you said earlier) given part of God's spirit! That is what Quran 32:9 says. There is simply now way out of this. Proof that Adam was proportioned and given a soul:

(Quran 38:71-72) And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: I am going to create a human (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.


(Quran 7:11) And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], then given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, Prostrate to Adam; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.

So you must conclude that Adam was created after sexual reproduction by sexual reproduction. Do you get it, sorry for the bad wording! I hope you can see my reasoning.

So in the end, yes, evolution. It was in-fact beautifully worded and it was perfectly ordered. That is exactly how it happened! Humans were formed from the Earth, after a while creatures were able to sexually reproduce, through sexual reproduction more variation was able to form and thus this allows the higher improvement of the creatures so that it develops higher intelligence! How ACCURATE this is is absolutely amazing! And you are desperately trying to take this miraculous verse and give it a different meaning besides its clear implication!

Allah BEGAN (bad'aa) the creation of humans. What does that by itself apply? By itself-it says that humanity was not an instant creation and involved stages! Further, I have researched this some more, many many arabic speakers even classical lexicons continue to agree that Ahsana used as a very means improved upon/perfected. Further it makes sense in the context of those verses. But I say again, irrespective of whether it means good/improved upon, it says that creation was made in stages.

Further there are many many verses that show that Humans (Adam included) were created from semen/embryo. This further proves my point:

(Quran 16:4) He created man from a sperm-drop;
(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from ALAQ


Is Allah ever short of words? He is clear, All of mankind was created from semen and ALAQ. This includes Adam.

Another point that proves my point:

(Quran 35:11) And Allah did create you from dust; then from a reproductive fluid; then He made you in pairs

Humanity was made in pairs AFTER reproductive fluid creation. Who was the first pair to be like us? Adam/Eve. They were created AFTER and from a reproductive fluid.

To further prove my point the Quran says that:

Quran 3:59 Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.

Was Jesus created instantly? NO. Even though Allah said "be and he was", Jesus was formed in the womb and developed as a baby. If this is similar to Adam, then Adam was created in stages too. Further, we also assert that Adam was also created in a womb. Further, we may also assert that Adam may have not had a father intervention. But either way, they were both created in stages.

So what does Allah mean in this verse when he says "Be and he was"? It seems to point to some kind of event happening at the womb, perhaps a genetic event, a mutation maybe? I'm not sure. We KNOW that Allah works through science, we observe it everyday.

But my point is, if Jesus' creation is that of Adam, and Jesus was created in stages, then Adam was too.

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So there are 2 ways of interpreting that verse (32:7)

1.) Creation is Good (this verse is saying that Allah's creation is Good)
2.) Creation was made Good (This verse is not only saying Allah's creation is Good, but that it was made Good from its previous state--So everything that Allah has created, Allah has then made it Good.)

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The question arises, which interpretation is best?

    The context of the verse which deals with the steps of creation and how it was made progressively better than the preceding stage tells us that interpretation 2 is best.
    The other quranic verses which mention that humans were made in stages, each stage more complex and better than the next (be it embryology of evolution) show to favor interpretation 2.
    The fact that the Quran didn't simply state that creation is Good is also another favor to interpretation 2
    Quran 40:64 and 64:3 say that we were formed and that form was then made good also favoring interpretation 2 of that verse

This is my rationale.
I'd have to say that your rationale isn't rational really . I already explained .

By simply saying that you already explained and then insulting my rationale that I newly mentioned to you, you really didn't do anything. Its like you read it, and then you just disregarded it. Explain again. This thing you did is just to gain rhetorical power. It may be good for you or others, but not for me.

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I also used my brother's account to ask this question in Y/A. Many have further said that 'Ahsana' means to improve upon. So this also favors interpretation 2  ;)

http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AqWOQY04Rbwt86LHC.jFbcjAFQx.;_ylv=3?qid=20131106110058AAj2o8h
If you were really honest and looked at the other guy's answer , you wouldn't have said this . First of all I told you , saying "people agree with me" doesn't help you .

I looked at all answers. I never said people agree with me, firstly I showed you that sahih international worded this verse in a way that also supports me. You keep crying 'ignorance' whenever I make a point, so I simply showed you that I am not. If you even read further, you would have seen me say that both interprtations that "ahsana" either means creation is good or that creation was improved are valid because they are both valid meanings of the word. Further, I have shown the translation does not at all hinder Quranic support for gradual creation.

I keep repeating that irrespective of the translation it does not matter. Creation involved stages, simple as that. Read the verses after 32:7

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It can mean to do a task well/best/perfect

which is what you totally ignore . Another answer says

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Yes, more or less you are correct.
it is used in the Quran over and over again with this meaning attached to it.
it also is used to mean "who is better" i.e. "waman ahsanu"
meaning that the person doing this (whatever action the verse happens to be referring to, lots of verses say this) is among the best of people.
which means to make something "Better than others" . As in doing what you do better than what others would do . And the example he used goes according to what I just said . So no , he wasn't in agreement with you . And the one before the last one says

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Close but not totally correct, make something better would mean hassana (same root)
ahsana would mean did a good job or did it well
it can also mean who is better. It depends on the sentence
which is 100% not in your favor !

 


Now you said that some of them are 100% not in my favor. Nope. Only one of the answers are not in my favor: This one would be to "reform".

The other ones work in my favor. Go back to the link. The best answer works to my favor. User: Runformylife has said that it could be used as a superlative. user:الأحبار, said that I am correct more or less--you said he is not in my favor, what? User: Radroud: (he is a Lebanese non-Muslim-good because he is unbaised) says that it may mean who is 'better'. So I have no idea how you said they are all against my favor. They all testify (except one) that it could carry the meaning of "better" or "improved upon". Further sahih international has used another valid translation of 'Ahsana' which means to improve upon. So we are both right.

But, for the 6th time, It does not matter. But, just so that you don't think you walked out with triumph and start going throwing a rhetorical bomb claiming I am a Kaffir, nonmuslim, ignorant, I must show you you are wrong again.. Many in that said that it means to do good, to be better, to improve upon or to make well. That is what they all said. What does that tell you? It tells you that Ahsana is a general word that either means to make good or make better. And I keep saying that either way, the Quran supports creation with a process. Made good or made better, they are both valid. I feel that judging by the context, better is the best translation. But, again, it simply does not matter and we really should have not been spending this much time on the same topic.

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There are Muslims who follow their desires too . They are the same who deny the marriage of lady Aisha Allah be pleased of her because it doesn't suit their "tastes" . And no matter how much you prove to them that it's scientifically and historically OK , they'd still deny it because it's simply not going with what they like . Another example is of those who say that Jews and Christians will go to paradise because Allah is merciful . So yes , just being a Muslim doesn't mean a person never follows what he desires .

Another example is BlackMuslim who denies the Quran supports that humans were formed in stages so that he could follow his desires when the Quran plainly says:

(Quran 71:14)  God created you in diverse stages
(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.
(Quran 64:3) He designed you THEN made your design better/good
(Quran 40:63) formed you THEN made your form better/good


And the verse that shows that Adam was proportioned:

(Quran 7:11) And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], THEN given you [human] form. THEN We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.

And then you have Quran 32:7-9 making it clear that humanity's creation had a process.

And then you say I am the one following my desires.

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Well that explains a lot . Like how you try to defend evolution at all costs . You wanted to believe Islam is right but you didn't want to think of a second that just "MAYBE" evolution is wrong . For that reason , you try to make it look like Quran and this ideology are matching . Yeah , I know the type and know what it's like although I wasn't an Atheist neither have I been anything but a Muslim since I was born . Back then , I would hear a slander and an allegation against Islam , and because I don't know how to respond , because I didn't want to think much , I would just say "You're lying , there is no such thing in Islam" even if it was of its basis . That way of thinking is what makes some people deny the forbidding of pork . They hear that "scientists" proved pigs are clean - yeah right ! - and that Islam is wrong when it forbids it .

That is what we are debating. You completely misinterpreted what I said. I didn't want to become a muslim. You accused me of following my desires adn I show you that I do not. I follow what is rational. If I wanted to follow my desires, then I would have never been muslim.

Further, you interpretation is factually incorrect. You think you know me better than I do.

Scientists have not proved pigs are clean, they have proved that pigs raised in cleaner environments are cleaner.


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1-two things that say the same thing are complimenting each other on that thing
2-The Quran says that creation was made good through a process (in 32:7-9)
3-Evolution says that creation was made more complex (good) through a process
Conclusion: The Quran and evolution are complimenting each other.

Excuse the wording, its very late..
Well , you just repeated the same thing I said you do ! After all this explaining of the meaning of "Ahsana" and how that evolution isn't mentioned anywhere , you still go from point 2 as if I wasn't just talking about point one .

You still simply don't get it! Ahsana could mean BOTH of those things--creation was improved or made good. It doesn't matter anyway. I have presented my reasoning why saying it is better translated as "better" through quranic context, and you haven't responded.

You made like some kind of false connection here. You say that by proving "Ahsana" can ONLY be interpreted as meaning "creation is good" (which is wrong, I have shown you a scholar interpretation and other opinions of the varying meanings of Ahsana), but you say that that hinders the Quranic teaching of evolution! Wrong!

Lets say it means "creation is good", what do the verses after say? That creation BEGAN and Allah made it Good and made it more complex!

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This one was my mistake indeed . Father Adam was formed . I already said so in this post . As for forming and creating out of nothing , I'll explain . In Arabic , the word is "Khalaqa" which means "He created OR He formed or shaped" . When it comes to forming , Allah forms and so do his creatures with his will . That's why in tactical battles we say "create an opening" . But when it comes to creating out of nothing , ONLY Allah can do this . That's why in our world we have the law of "Energy doesn't perish or appear out of nothing" . Translated from the Arabic law so it might differ .

Yes, thanks for pointing that out. But the thing you must agree with Allah creates and created Mankind (this includes Adam) in stages to continue to the scientific support of evolution.

Remember my core argument: "The Quran supports a gradual creation of all of mankind" And not: "The Quran supports and instant creation of all of mankind".

Once we have that settled, we have the Quran telling us that creation is made in stages, now what are those stages? That is where we turn to science and knowledge. Have we reached that stage yet?

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Before that , I'll give you a note . When you talk about the best of mankind , prophet Muhammad peace upon him , it's vulgar to call him "Muhammad" as if talking about your little brother . The same goes to the rest of prophets peace upon them all including father Adam .

Allah knows best .

Yes, let that not give anyone a hint that I do not respect the prophet (pbuh) by calling him "Muhammad", it was just fast typing.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on November 09, 2013, 07:10:51 PM
After reading through most of your posts i favor brother Black Muslim. Brother Mclinkin94 you almost got me into thinking that Quran supported evolution. Brother Black Muslim your latest reply was perfect. Keep up the good work. But you guys should seriously consider keeping replies a bit short. It though for most of your readers to read Encyclopedias just to keep up with whats going on. Other than that you guys rock. All of you! Thank you.

You can choose which ever side you pick. I'm not forcing anyone to believe in evolution. But in order to keep your title as Muslim, you must say that Mankind (including Adam) was created in stages or through a process, not an instant creation.

All it really takes is one verse. As you know "Thumma" in Arabic means "then".

Quran 7:11 And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], THEN given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was not of those who prostrated.

We were created in one form, THEN, Allah gave us human form. Don't forget this Applies to Adam. If the Quran wanted to say that Adam was created isntantly, as BlackMuslim pushes for, why would it say we and Adam were created then proportioned into shape? Further, if the Quran supports instant creation why would it say this twice:

Quran 40:64 Formed you then made your forms good/better.
Quran 64:3 Formed you then made your forms good/better.

Also:
Allah many times in the Quran has told us many types of creation and how everything was made through a process (Quran 32:7-9 is one example we used) on how the creation of the universe took 6 periods involving stages on how Allah spread out the creation of the universe and how Allah spread out the Earth and how Allah has given us stages in our embryological development. Why would Allah all of suddenly stop forming things by stages and decide to make humans instantly and without stages? Everything that was created was by stages, except humans? What exactly is your answer to that?

Even Jesus's creation--A miraculous birth similar to Adam (Quran 3:59)--involved stages.

How about the fact that the Quran has made it plainly clear that humans were created in stages:  (Quran 71:14)  God created you in stages and how the Quran highlights those stages as being embryology and evolutionary  (Quran 32:7-9, 35:11 etc.)

All of this this further proves the Quran when it says:
(Quran 71:14)  God created you in diverse stages

Indeed Allah is never short of words. When Allah says he created us in stages, we were created in stages..simple as that.

-----

The worst part is, Islam supports evolution and mainstream Muslims don't. You have clear Quranic support of evolution and you have immense scientific evidence and support for evolution, yet mainstream Muslims deny...

This is an embarrassment to Islam, this is an embarrassment to the world. This is JUST as bad as 6 literal day creationists and the flat earth believers! And the worst part is, the Quran supports creation in many different stages involving improvement of species onto higher level organisms like humans!

Imagine all to potential faith seekers who were investigating Islam and then they are told  the lie that Islam does not support evolution and they stay away from religion. You divert them from the truth, from the true religion by making excuses to remove the Quranic support for evolution.

How can we look at the Quranic verses that say that we were formed and then our form was made good/better, , or that humanity succeeded others in the Earth or that humans grew from the earth progressively or how Allah has said that he began the creation of humans from the earth and highlighted the stages of human development or that the creation of humans involved different stages and then say that the Quran is against evolution....

You deny evolution with Quranic support and the immense scientific evidence pointing to it. This is nothing short of an embarrassment.

You divert others from the path of Islam by making this lie. If it weren't for those fradulent hadiths, we wouldn't have this problem. The Quran even addresses this nonsense mainstream Islam is adhering to:

[Quran 31:6] Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless HADITH, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.

Muslims are diverting others from Islam (the path of God) without knowledge and uphold baseless hadith which has been thoroughly refuted by science and maintain no scientific support.

Shame on us....

Many people seek Islam, many people see the path of God..then when one fundamental scientific fact is denied by Muslims..they leave the path of God.

Shame on us...

May Allah forgive us all.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on November 14, 2013, 09:24:02 AM
I already told you linckin , I did what I have to do . Your last post only repeats the last points . And none is better than Quran in saying this :
((And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."))
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on November 14, 2013, 07:28:32 PM
I already told you linckin , I did what I have to do . Your last post only repeats the last points . And none is better than Quran in saying this :
((And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."))

If you wish to remain stubborn in a clear Quran, then Indeed I will let you disbelieve in the Quran.

It was not repeats of the last points, it was clarifying your misunderstanding and a provision of different other points to further bring out my points. The Quran is clear, I simply don't like it when you use a rhetorical gain. So to relive this gain, I will summarize the debate:

Here is the summary of our debate:

Your points:
-Evolution is a lie not supported by the Quran because:

-The hadiths say otherwise (even though they reflect 7th century ignorant interpretations of a Quran)
-Quran 32:7-9 is not taking about steps of human creation (although it is clear)
-Quran 32:7-9 uses the word Ahsana which doesn't have to mean "better" and could mean Good (I have shown you that it doesn't matter because the context of the verse says the same thing and can still mean better and in fact applying it to Quran 40:64 makes more sense to use 'better', even the sahin international translation even supports the translation 'better')
-Even though the Quran says that we were created in stages, that only applies to embryology (It doesn't, as science and the Quran itself has told us how Adam's creation was not instant and involved stages)


Do you get why I don't support your view? It is because of All of your excuse making...it is because of you forcing a hadith interpretation of the Quran despite the contradiction it creates with the Quran and reality.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on November 15, 2013, 12:36:30 AM
Case closed . I really hoped that you would have some humbleness and admit even one mistake of what you make . But your overconfidence and glorifying of yourself seems to be a difficult obstacle .
((And he turned away from them and said, "O my people, I had certainly conveyed to you the message of my Lord and advised you, but you do not like advisors."))
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on November 15, 2013, 06:02:16 PM
Case closed . I really hoped that you would have some humbleness and admit even one mistake of what you make . But your overconfidence and glorifying of yourself seems to be a difficult obstacle .
((And he turned away from them and said, "O my people, I had certainly conveyed to you the message of my Lord and advised you, but you do not like advisors."))

Same goes to you.

I have made mistakes, but, in this debate I know I have provided great reasoning with great Quranic support.

You did indeed correct me on a few things, lets not forget them:

1.) That we are not to blindly reject Hadiths as they may have some truth
2.) The word "ahsana" can be translated as "good" as well as "better''.

The verses you post can be used to talk about you as well :)

I have not seen a good point in which the Quran rejects the idea of evolution. In fact, this was your weakest argument. You have made good arguments when it comes to hadiths that I hope we will address later, but the evolution arguments were very weak with tons of excuse making.

I hope you can address my points. We seek knowledge and truth, we do not seek to say that "I am right and you are wrong". I seek truth. I don't see that in your arguments.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on November 16, 2013, 08:39:40 AM
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You have made good arguments when it comes to hadiths that I hope we will address later, but the evolution arguments were very weak with tons of excuse making.
We've already gone through that and I'm not doing it again considering that I kept posting certain points over 5 times and you never addressed them . When it comes to evolution , it is you who fails to show a single sign in Quran supporting this ideology . Trying to push your way through saying I'm dishonest and that the signs are "clear" means nothing . Otherwise , you really need to check your eyes so that you can redefine "clear" .

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I hope you can address my points. We seek knowledge and truth, we do not seek to say that "I am right and you are wrong". I seek truth. I don't see that in your arguments.
A big bluff really . Look who's talking . I do this because I won't stand aside while someone tries to alter what's in Islam in order to please his personal liking or that of others . The matter with you is "I'm right and the whole Islamic nation ever since it was founded is wrong" . No room for comparison really .
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on November 16, 2013, 04:01:55 PM
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We've already gone through that and I'm not doing it again considering that I kept posting certain points over 5 times and you never addressed them . When it comes to evolution , it is you who fails to show a single sign in Quran supporting this ideology . Trying to push your way through saying I'm dishonest and that the signs are "clear" means nothing . Otherwise , you really need to check your eyes so that you can redefine "clear" .

I'm not sure what points you are talking about. I addressed all points until I decided we will go back to discussing Hadiths after evolution.

Not only were you dishonest in saying that I have failed to show a single sign in the Quran, you deny your own dishonesty.

There is no debate here. In fact let me just post another verse from the plethora of verses I have to support my point. Indeed Allah, the creator of the worlds, has put those verses in the Quran for a reason and that reason is that those verses be understood once science progresses. Here is one:

Quran 82:7 O Mankind....Who created you, then proportioned you, then balanced you? (Remember that the proportioning and balancing ALSO applies to Adam as other verses say it does)

Look at that. It is summarizing and separating 3 major stages in creation. This verse is further supporting the Quranic verse that states creation is in stages ((Quran 71:14)  God created you in diverse stages) . Look at how it mirrors the basic idea of Evolution. Then you say that Evolution is not supported in the Quran.

But, no. You like to spread the falsehood that diverts those from Islam and say that the Quran contradicts evolution. You are harming the religion of God despite its clarity. There is a reason those verses were worded that way.


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I hope you can address my points. We seek knowledge and truth, we do not seek to say that "I am right and you are wrong". I seek truth. I don't see that in your arguments.
A big bluff really . Look who's talking . I do this because I won't stand aside while someone tries to alter what's in Islam in order to please his personal liking or that of others . The matter with you is "I'm right and the whole Islamic nation ever since it was founded is wrong" . No room for comparison really .
[/quote]

You are altering what is in the Quran in order to please your personal liking. Hello? I'm simply posting Quranic verses and you are making excuses. And I keep showing you that those excuses are invalid. This is incompetence to a new level, not only that you say things like "I've already discussed" even though we both know you didn't and neither have you discussed well. The evidence in the Quran is too strong. It only takes dishonesty to deny such clear verses. An honest and straightforward interpretation of the Quran brings you to believe in Evolution.

--

Further, you commit the fallacy of appealing to tradition and the appeal to popular belief.

Think about it for a second. Allah is all knowing and he puts a Quran to 7th century people. It is obvious and understandable that they would interpret the Quran differently than we would because they don't have the scientific knowledge to apply those Quranic verses to. But, you appeal to that 7th century ignorance, you appeal to the fradulent way in which they understood the Quran, even as I show you how its true. 

Your tactic so far is this;

1.) I present a Quranic verse showing evolution
2.)You make an excuse
3.)I refute your excuse in light of other Quranic verses
4.) then when I ask you to refute my arguments, you say "I already addressed it".

This isn't a rational way to debate. This is incompetence, this nonsense needs to stop.

I still urge you to address my arguments.
I seek knowledge and you should too, I do not seek anything but the truth. If this is a bluff to you, then I'm sorry for being to reasonable for you to handle.

Stop spreading this falsehood and stop diverting people from the path of God. This anti-evolution nonsense needs to stop. The Quran is not against and there is WAAY more than just a casual reference/hint to evolution in the Quran!
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on November 17, 2013, 09:18:44 AM
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/showthread.php?54933-%C7%D3%CA%D4%C7%D1%C9-%DD%ED-%C7%E1%D1%CF-%DA%E1%EC-%E3%E4%DF%D1-%E1%E1%D3%E4%C9
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on November 17, 2013, 09:50:26 PM
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/showthread.php?54933-%C7%D3%CA%D4%C7%D1%C9-%DD%ED-%C7%E1%D1%CF-%DA%E1%EC-%E3%E4%DF%D1-%E1%E1%D3%E4%C9

Why do you keep forwarding me to this website? I checked it again, all I saw is you posting everything I said here to get a second opinion. But I didn't see much relevance to Evolution. All I see is that you are stuck on hadiths again...As if the interpretation of the Quran is dependent on Hadiths. Has the Quran (the complete authority) said that it wasn't clear enough so that hadiths are needed for understanding? NO! The Quran said quite the opposite.

Indeed the Quran tells us of people like you:

[Quran 31:6] Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless HADITH, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.

Are the hadiths you uphold baseless, why?

1.) The majority contradict Science and reality (unless you wanna say that you should dip your fly in the drink twice or that on the 6th day of Friday afternoon Allah created humans).
2.) The method of hadith collection is not a perfect science (We have seen mistakes in Sahih hadiths in which we now say are not from the prophet)
3.) Internal contradictions exist within ''sahih'' hadiths (We all testify to this)
4.) The Quran tells you to not follow any other hadith except the Quran. (MANY MANY times did the Quran tell you that it is the only truth).

Do they divert others from the path of God?

Yes they do, because people understand the fact of evolution in which hadiths contradict. Muslims then force a hadith interpretation to the Quran that is rather contradictory to the Quran and reality and is dishonest. A fair and honest reading of the Quran brings you in support of evolution. Excuse making brings you in support of the hadiths.

Indeed the Quran tells us to obey the messenger. But what is the messenger's SOLE duty:

"And obey God and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that the sole duty of the messenger is the deliverance (of the message)" 5:92

"And obey God and obey the messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our messenger is the sole duty of the clear delivery (of the message)" 64:12


..to deliver the message.

Here is the logic:

Premise one: We must obey the messenger
Premise two: The messenger's sole duty is the deliver the message (the message is in verses of the Quran as the Quran also states, the Quran does not say the message is also the oral hadiths)

Conclusion: Therefore we must only obey the message (Quran) in which the messenger has came with.

"Say (O Muhammad), "What is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me to warn you with it and whomever it reaches." 6:19

This testimony which God describes as "Akbar Shahada" (the Greatest Testimony) commands Muhammad to testify that He received the Quran from God. This testimony speaks of only one revelation received by Muhammad from God which is the Quran. If Muhammad truly received other revelations from God (other than the Quran), would we not find any mention of it in the Quran? Would God hide the fact that He gave Muhammad a revelation independent of the Quran and then command us to obey it?

You see that: A completely honest interpretation of the Quran. No excuse making, nothing but the Quran explaining itself. If Allah, the all knowing, all mighty creator wanted you to follow those Hadiths, why didn't he specifically tell us to follow things outside of the Quran? Why did he tell us exactly the opposite.

I bring you the last point, when Allah says that he created humans in stages, it means that he created humans in stages...it doesn't get any more of an honest translation.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on November 21, 2013, 09:48:01 AM
Now that you make more nonsense and want to misguide people yet more , I'll have to talk again .

Quote
Indeed the Quran tells us of people like you:

[Quran 31:6] Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless HADITH, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.
Have not I said that you'd go as low as to forge verses in Quran and explain it in absurd ways ? Not even one translation here says what you claim :
http://quran.com/31/6
You're just so desperate to say "I'm right and you're wrong" even if it's by altering what's in Quran for your own selfish liking . That is why someone must be here to clarify to people that what you do is nothing of Islam . And get this , Quran is nothing like the corrupted books of Jews and Christians , one try and you'll get busted . Let alone if it's with someone who speaks the native language of the book .

Quote
Are the hadiths you uphold baseless, why?

1.) The majority contradict Science and reality (unless you wanna say that you should dip your fly in the drink twice or that on the 6th day of Friday afternoon Allah created humans).
2.) The method of hadith collection is not a perfect science (We have seen mistakes in Sahih hadiths in which we now say are not from the prophet)
3.) Internal contradictions exist within ''sahih'' hadiths (We all testify to this)
4.) The Quran tells you to not follow any other hadith except the Quran. (MANY MANY times did the Quran tell you that it is the only truth).
A futile attempt to run away yet again . Really , if your house is glass , don't throw stones on people . I'll fire your arrows back at you one by one .

Quote
1.) The majority contradict Science and reality (unless you wanna say that you should dip your fly in the drink twice or that on the 6th day of Friday afternoon Allah created humans).
My God ! Never thought you were THAT ignorant ! We take it as a scientific miracle and you see it as an error ?!
First of all o one who holds no shred of shame , just because you feel disgusted it doesn't mean that this saying is wrong . Secondly , I'll just give you the link and let you see how you reject things based on your liking .
http://www.kaheel7.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=537
And I swear to the lord that anything you call an "error" is in a similar way . It doesn't go like this . We won't discard a major part of Islam just because you mister are "grossed" . If so , villagers would stop drinking milk right after milking a cow because the spoiled are disgusted .

Quote
2.) The method of hadith collection is not a perfect science (We have seen mistakes in Sahih hadiths in which we now say are not from the prophet)
Says who ? The guy who doesn't know the first thing about this science ?! If you really read Quran - and you clearly don't - you would have immediately accepted it , but desires are dangerous indeed .


Quote
2 - The ones who wrote Hadith did follow the teachings of Quran and used its way .


Quote
A - Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."
B - O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.
C - And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you,
D - O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.

In the first one , Quran gives instructions to ask for evidence in anything and not accept whatever told . In the second one , Quran tells us to be investigate what we are told . In the third one , Quran tells us to be patient in investigating evidence . In the fourth one , Quran tells us to not accuse with no proof .
Now , these rules are done correctly by the scholars of Hadith while you who deny Sunnah do the opposite . You don't follow the third one which tells us to be patient in finding evidence . When one writes Hadith , he travels great distances to make sure of every single piece of information he is told . And you who sit in your house with air conditioning have no right object on this method . And when it comes to the forth one , Allah tells us to avoid negative assumptions while you simply say Hadith is corrupted and that the writers are liars and hypocrites . You even go to call the companions hypocrites !!

Quote
3.) Internal contradictions exist within ''sahih'' hadiths (We all testify to this)
Congrats , you made me say it after refraining from it for a while : Testify my foot ! Since when did "You" mean "We all" ?
The same as what you call errors , they are based on your own weak understanding and "unwillingness" . And every single time you open your mouth you'll only prove it more .

Quote
4.) The Quran tells you to not follow any other hadith except the Quran. (MANY MANY times did the Quran tell you that it is the only truth).
You lie . And what a big lie it is . Quran tells time and time again to follow what the prophet says because it is also the revelation of the almighty . You with your upside down logic change what the signs mean to match what you claim . I won't repeat unless necessary .

Quote
Do they divert others from the path of God?

Yes they do, because people understand the fact of evolution in which hadiths contradict. Muslims then force a hadith interpretation to the Quran that is rather contradictory to the Quran and reality and is dishonest. A fair and honest reading of the Quran brings you in support of evolution. Excuse making brings you in support of the hadiths.
Irrelevant rant based on claiming that the myth of "evolution" is a gospel .

Quote
Indeed the Quran tells us to obey the messenger. But what is the messenger's SOLE duty:

"And obey God and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that the sole duty of the messenger is the deliverance (of the message)" 5:92

"And obey God and obey the messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our messenger is the sole duty of the clear delivery (of the message)" 64:12

..to deliver the message.

Here is the logic:

Premise one: We must obey the messenger
Premise two: The messenger's sole duty is the deliver the message (the message is in verses of the Quran as the Quran also states, the Quran does not say the message is also the oral hadiths)

Conclusion: Therefore we must only obey the message (Quran) in which the messenger has came with.
And you want to delude yourself and others that what the prophet says is not a revelation ? Again , you're the most ignorant of Quran which you claim to follow :
Quote
1 By the star when it descends, 2 Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred, 3 Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. 4 It is not but a revelation revealed,
So obeying the messenger is by necessity leading to obey what he says . Twist it however you like , that's what it is and that's what the nation understood until this species called "Sunnah rejecters" showed up .


Quote
"Say (O Muhammad), "What is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me to warn you with it and whomever it reaches." 6:19

This testimony which God describes as "Akbar Shahada" (the Greatest Testimony) commands Muhammad to testify that He received the Quran from God. This testimony speaks of only one revelation received by Muhammad from God which is the Quran. If Muhammad truly received other revelations from God (other than the Quran), would we not find any mention of it in the Quran? Would God hide the fact that He gave Muhammad a revelation independent of the Quran and then command us to obey it?
In what world does this sign deny any kind of revelation aside from Quran ? I'll take the logic lessons a little easy and make it step by step :
1 - A guy gets a basket of different kinds of fruits
2 - He says "I got orange"
3 - That in no universe mean he didn't get anything but orange
And I told you over a hundred time how Quran orders us to obey the prophet .

Quote
You see that: A completely honest interpretation of the Quran. No excuse making, nothing but the Quran explaining itself. If Allah, the all knowing, all mighty creator wanted you to follow those Hadiths, why didn't he specifically tell us to follow things outside of the Quran? Why did he tell us exactly the opposite.
What I see is a load of rant produced out of a deep hatred of what doesn't match your selfish desires . What I also see is a load of nonsense which you try to make look "scientific" .

And yet again , for over the fifth time maybe , I'll bring what you keep running away from :

Quote
Now let me give you some points demolishing your faith of denying Sunnah .

1 -You claim that Quran says it is the only source . Then why does Quran itself tells us to ask others ?


Quote
And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not! -


2 - The ones who wrote Hadith did follow the teachings of Quran and used its way .

Quote
A - Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."
B - O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.
C - And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you,
D - O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.

In the first one , Quran gives instructions to ask for evidence in anything and not accept whatever told . In the second one , Quran tells us to be investigate what we are told . In the third one , Quran tells us to be patient in investigating evidence . In the fourth one , Quran tells us to not accuse with no proof .
Now , these rules are done correctly by the scholars of Hadith while you who deny Sunnah do the opposite . You don't follow the third one which tells us to be patient in finding evidence . When one writes Hadith , he travels great distances to make sure of every single piece of information he is told . And you who sit in your house with air conditioning have no right object on this method . And when it comes to the forth one , Allah tells us to avoid negative assumptions while you simply say Hadith is corrupted and that the writers are liars and hypocrites . You even go to call the companions hypocrites !!

3 - History mentions a huge range of claims and accusations against Quran and else . Why don't we EVER hear about deniers of Sunnah in the time of the prophet peace upon him and his companions ? Why didn't anyone at all say that we must ONLY follow Quran and abandon anything else ? You talk about baseless theories accusing Hadith and I'm talking rationally here . If this path you're going down is really true , then how come no one noticed ? There's a difference between different explanations of verses and between an essential matter such as this .


4 - Through this method which you hate so much and make fun of , we know that there is a man called "Muhammad" and that there are people who lived with him called "Companions" and that Allah sent a book to him called "Quran" . So without this method , we loose our history . And based on that , anyone can deny that there was ever a man called Muhammad - peace upon him - and and deny that there were companions . In fact , anyone can deny anything with this method you follow . I for example can deny that there was world war one . How can you ever object on me ? I didn't see it and only heard about it from people who heard about it from others . Then it must be a fable .
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: QuranSearchCom on November 21, 2013, 11:26:35 AM
As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers and sisters,

While it is great for all of us to interact with one another, and while it is healthy to disagree, but we should not pass the line of fitnah (http://www.answering-christianity.com/fitnah.htm).  If fitnah seems to emerge then it becomes a duty for the Muslims to work on putting it out.  This also goes for treatment towards the disbelievers (http://www.answering-christianity.com/tempting_disbelievers_is_forbidden.htm) as well.

All I wanted to say is this:  If you guys want me to freeze this thread, then I can do so.  I won't interfere unless the brotherhood is being compromised.  We're all adults here, and we're all brothers and sisters in Islam.  Just please keep in mind that at the end of the day, we are Believers.  Personally, I don't agree at all with the claim that we, humans, originated from animals.  Man is a different creation, and is a newer creation, relatively speaking.  Now, if a brother or sister insists that we evolved from animals, and they feel very strongly about it, and they feel that they have strong proofs from the Holy Quran to back their claim up, then I'll just have to agree to disagree with him/her.  The reason is because his/her view isn't a threat to any of Islam's Pillars.  It's a side and minor point.  So whether I am right or wrong on it, it's minor.  The same with the brother or sister.

This is my input.  May Allah Almighty bless you all.  Ameen.

Your brother,
Osama Abdallah
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on November 21, 2013, 10:56:16 PM
Quote
[Quran 31:6] Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless HADITH, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.
Have not I said that you'd go as low as to forge verses in Quran and explain it in absurd ways ? Not even one translation here says what you claim :
http://quran.com/31/6
You're just so desperate to say "I'm right and you're wrong" even if it's by altering what's in Quran for your own selfish liking . That is why someone must be here to clarify to people that what you do is nothing of Islam . And get this , Quran is nothing like the corrupted books of Jews and Christians , one try and you'll get busted . Let alone if it's with someone who speaks the native language of the book . [/quote]

Did you not see my point? This Quranic verse is exactly what you are doing. Upholding baseless hadith and diverting others from the path of God.....By upholding hadiths that deny evolution, you divert others from the path of God.

So I am Forging evidene. Quran 31:6 says "hadith". Hadith is obviously translated as idle talk, because the ahadith IS idle talk....

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Quote
1.) The majority contradict Science and reality (unless you wanna say that you should dip your fly in the drink twice or that on the 6th day of Friday afternoon Allah created humans).
My God ! Never thought you were THAT ignorant ! We take it as a scientific miracle and you see it as an error ?!
First of all o one who holds no shred of shame , just because you feel disgusted it doesn't mean that this saying is wrong .

You take Allah creating Humans on friday afternoon and dipping your fly in the drink as a scientific miracle? I don't know what textbook your reading.

Quote
Secondly , I'll just give you the link and let you see how you reject things based on your liking .
http://www.kaheel7.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=537
And I swear to the lord that anything you call an "error" is in a similar way . It doesn't go like this . We won't discard a major part of Islam just because you mister are "grossed" . If so , villagers would stop drinking milk right after milking a cow because the spoiled are disgusted .

I like what this article has to day, but dipping your fly in your drink a second time is not going to clean the drink up for you as the hadiths implies. This actually further supports my point,  the prophet said something similar to that, but it got wrongfully transmitted and the meaning therefore changed.

Just like the telephone game that we played back in grade school.



Quote
Says who ? The guy who doesn't know the first thing about this science ?! If you really read Quran - and you clearly don't - you would have immediately accepted it , but desires are dangerous indeed .

I said the science of hadith (hadith collection) is not a science its an art. It is not a perfect science, we find sahih hadiths contradictory....that proves my point.




Quote
A - Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."
B - O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.
C - And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you,
D - O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.

In the first one , Quran gives instructions to ask for evidence in anything and not accept whatever told . In the second one , Quran tells us to be investigate what we are told . In the third one , Quran tells us to be patient in investigating evidence . In the fourth one , Quran tells us to not accuse with no proof .
Now , these rules are done correctly by the scholars of Hadith while you who deny Sunnah do the opposite . You don't follow the third one which tells us to be patient in finding evidence . When one writes Hadith , he travels great distances to make sure of every single piece of information he is told . And you who sit in your house with air conditioning have no right object on this method . And when it comes to the forth one , Allah tells us to avoid negative assumptions while you simply say Hadith is corrupted and that the writers are liars and hypocrites . You even go to call the companions hypocrites !![/quote]

First one: Agreed. YOu got evidence for evolution and the nonsense of hadiths
Second one:Agreed. Investigate everything you are told. That include evolution and the Quranic support thereof!
Third one: I follow you there, perhaps I am inpatient--that doesn't invalidate my evidence though.
Fourth one: I never accuse without evidence

You said that they tried really hard to make the hadiths good---how does that mean that hadiths are perfect and how does that mean that EVERYONE did that.

Lastly, I didn't make an assumption with hadiths. I say they are unreliable and I back that up with reasonable claims.

Quote
Quote
3.) Internal contradictions exist within ''sahih'' hadiths (We all testify to this)
Congrats , you made me say it after refraining from it for a while : Testify my foot ! Since when did "You" mean "We all" ?
The same as what you call errors , they are based on your own weak understanding and "unwillingness" . And every single time you open your mouth you'll only prove it more .

I meant reasonable people testify that there are contradictions in hadiths. There are. There is proof.

I dont' think it is unwillingness when a hadiths says if A then B. And another hadiths says If A then C.

Quote
Quote
4.) The Quran tells you to not follow any other hadith except the Quran. (MANY MANY times did the Quran tell you that it is the only truth).
You lie . And what a big lie it is . Quran tells time and time again to follow what the prophet says because it is also the revelation of the almighty . You with your upside down logic change what the signs mean to match what you claim . I won't repeat unless necessary .

Lets see if I lied: I already given reasons as to why. Remember my analysis of Quranic verse. It will be below in this post (I quoted mine)

Quote
Do they divert others from the path of God?

Yes they do, because people understand the fact of evolution in which hadiths contradict. Muslims then force a hadith interpretation to the Quran that is rather contradictory to the Quran and reality and is dishonest. A fair and honest reading of the Quran brings you in support of evolution. Excuse making brings you in support of the hadiths.[/quote]
Irrelevant rant based on claiming that the myth of "evolution" is a gospel . [/quote]

That is absolutely relevant. The Quran said that through following hadiths, you will divert others from God. That is because the hadiths you uphold are false. This is happening as we speak. Quran brings you in support of evolution. Hadiths don't. So they divert others from Islam.

Quote
Quote
Indeed the Quran tells us to obey the messenger. But what is the messenger's SOLE duty:

"And obey God and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that the sole duty of the messenger is the deliverance (of the message)" 5:92

"And obey God and obey the messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our messenger is the sole duty of the clear delivery (of the message)" 64:12

..to deliver the message.

Here is the logic:

Premise one: We must obey the messenger
Premise two: The messenger's sole duty is the deliver the message (the message is in verses of the Quran as the Quran also states, the Quran does not say the message is also the oral hadiths)

Conclusion: Therefore we must only obey the message (Quran) in which the messenger has came with.
And you want to delude yourself and others that what the prophet says is not a revelation ? Again , you're the most ignorant of Quran which you claim to follow :
Quote
1 By the star when it descends, 2 Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred, 3 Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. 4 It is not but a revelation revealed,

So obeying the messenger is by necessity leading to obey what he says . Twist it however you like , that's what it is and that's what the nation understood until this species called "Sunnah rejecters" showed up .

Bro, please go back and address my arguments. I am not twisting, I swear I am not twisting anything. I am being reasonable here, doing nothing but a rational and honest analysis of the Quran.  Please go back and refute this argument.

Quote
Quote
"Say (O Muhammad), "What is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me to warn you with it and whomever it reaches." 6:19

This testimony which God describes as "Akbar Shahada" (the Greatest Testimony) commands Muhammad to testify that He received the Quran from God. This testimony speaks of only one revelation received by Muhammad from God which is the Quran. If Muhammad truly received other revelations from God (other than the Quran), would we not find any mention of it in the Quran? Would God hide the fact that He gave Muhammad a revelation independent of the Quran and then command us to obey it?
In what world does this sign deny any kind of revelation aside from Quran ? I'll take the logic lessons a little easy and make it step by step :
1 - A guy gets a basket of different kinds of fruits
2 - He says "I got orange"
3 - That in no universe mean he didn't get anything but orange
And I told you over a hundred time how Quran orders us to obey the prophet .

While indeed your logical analysis makes sense, it is not the case with the Quran and I will explain why. NOT once did the Quran say that we are to follow Hadiths in which people said about the prophets. Call me crazy, but, If Allah wanted us to do such, he would have told us to do such.

Think about it this way, If Allah intended that we are to follow the Quran and other revelations, would Allah not make that clear in the Quran? What if Allah's intention was to have us follow the Quran, how would he word his verses--the same way he did.

Telling us the prophet's ONLY duty is to give the message and specifying that the message is the Quran. Why didn't he specify that the message is also gonna be in hadith form??

That is how I see it.

Quote
Quote
You see that: A completely honest interpretation of the Quran. No excuse making, nothing but the Quran explaining itself. If Allah, the all knowing, all mighty creator wanted you to follow those Hadiths, why didn't he specifically tell us to follow things outside of the Quran? Why did he tell us exactly the opposite.
What I see is a load of rant produced out of a deep hatred of what doesn't match your selfish desires . What I also see is a load of nonsense which you try to make look "scientific" .

I don't see that at all. I see that as a completely honest interpretation as you will see.

Quote
And yet again , for over the fifth time maybe , I'll bring what you keep running away from :

running away from? What? I have never done such a thing.

Quote
Quote
Now let me give you some points demolishing your faith of denying Sunnah .

1 -You claim that Quran says it is the only source . Then why does Quran itself tells us to ask others ?


Quote
And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not! -


2 - The ones who wrote Hadith did follow the teachings of Quran and used its way .


3 - History mentions a huge range of claims and accusations against Quran and else . Why don't we EVER hear about deniers of Sunnah in the time of the prophet peace upon him and his companions ? Why didn't anyone at all say that we must ONLY follow Quran and abandon anything else ? You talk about baseless theories accusing Hadith and I'm talking rationally here . If this path you're going down is really true , then how come no one noticed ? There's a difference between different explanations of verses and between an essential matter such as this .


4 - Through this method which you hate so much and make fun of , we know that there is a man called "Muhammad" and that there are people who lived with him called "Companions" and that Allah sent a book to him called "Quran" . So without this method , we loose our history . And based on that , anyone can deny that there was ever a man called Muhammad - peace upon him - and and deny that there were companions . In fact , anyone can deny anything with this method you follow . I for example can deny that there was world war one . How can you ever object on me ? I didn't see it and only heard about it from people who heard about it from others . Then it must be a fable .

I will go at it one by one:

1.) This Quranic verse is telling us to find proof that the Quran is true by asking others. By investigating. This is irrelevant to the point you are trying to make.

I also wanted to say something about another verse that I know you will bring up:
"O you believe, obey God and obey the messenger and also those in charge among you"

You use the words "those in charge among you" in order to claim that the religious guru's have a right according to the Quran to have authority over the people and that they should be obeyed without question.

The term "those in charge among you" covers a wide variety of people. In order to determine who is actually entitled to have rightful authority over us, it would be quite logical to assert that this authority must be in accordance to God's law, in other words it must be a God given authority, and not an authority that is self claimed.

The following are some examples of rightful and righteous authority that is in harmony with the Quranic teachings:

[li]
[/li][/list]

2.) Obviously not because you have hadiths that contradict the QUran. Also not everyone is a perfect follower of Quran. Also there were obviously those who fabricated hadiths who weren't even Muslim. Also there are also hypocrites. Further there is also an extremely important point! The Quran is for all times and places as it states. So the science of the Quran could not have been known by hadith writers, so they put THEIR interpretation of the Quran in hadiths (like flat earth and other nonsense)..Do I have to go on?

3.) That is because the prophet Muhammad was completely following the Quran and made nothing new. He made no innovations. So if the prophet was following the Quran (that is a MUST) then everyone else was following the Quran. There was no "external sunnah", the Quran is the only sunnah. All of the nonsense you hear in hadiths are innovations and made and laws by the hadith makers. All the prophet did was clear up any problems the companions had with the Quran.

"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book (the Quran) fully detailed ?" 6:114 The Quran is fully detailed when it comes to religious matters and a source of law........If you say otherwise, then you are rejecting the Quran. How exactly can you reasonably avoid this?? The only way out is through excuse making...

4.) You are presenting a reason to believe in hadiths, because they provide History. I tell you its not true history its false history.

Further denying WW1 is ridiculous as we have evidence and even pictures. Denying a war from 1000+ years ago is more reasonable.


I hope we can reach a consensus.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on November 21, 2013, 11:15:17 PM
As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers and sisters,

While it is great for all of us to interact with one another, and while it is healthy to disagree, but we should not pass the line of fitnah (http://www.answering-christianity.com/fitnah.htm).  If fitnah seems to emerge then it becomes a duty for the Muslims to work on putting it out.  This also goes for treatment towards the disbelievers (http://www.answering-christianity.com/tempting_disbelievers_is_forbidden.htm) as well.

All I wanted to say is this:  If you guys want me to freeze this thread, then I can do so.  I won't interfere unless the brotherhood is being compromised.  We're all adults here, and we're all brothers and sisters in Islam.  Just please keep in mind that at the end of the day, we are Believers.  Personally, I don't agree at all with the claim that we, humans, originated from animals.  Man is a different creation, and is a newer creation, relatively speaking.  Now, if a brother or sister insists that we evolved from animals, and they feel very strongly about it, and they feel that they have strong proofs from the Holy Quran to back their claim up, then I'll just have to agree to disagree with him/her.  The reason is because his/her view isn't a threat to any of Islam's Pillars.  It's a side and minor point.  So whether I am right or wrong on it, it's minor.  The same with the brother or sister.

This is my input.  May Allah Almighty bless you all.  Ameen.

Your brother,
Osama Abdallah

Hello brother Osama, thank you very much for your kind statements. Indeed you are right and we will push to be as respectful as others.

May I ask a favor. Can you please post why you disagree with the Quranic support for evolution. I'm willing to change my standpoint if presented with  honest, reasonable and logical counter-arguments. Unfortunately, I believe the Quran has more than just a casual reference to evolution.

Please if you can, please discuss with me this topic. I search for truth and I search in honesty and I therefore seek knowledge.

Thank you very much for your efforts in this site! Its helped me tremendously!
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Muslimkid on November 26, 2013, 01:52:53 PM
This has been a very interesting thread to follow  ;D
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on November 26, 2013, 07:03:04 PM
This has been a very interesting thread to follow  ;D

I hope this debate continues. I know it is very hard for people to let go of thing they were brought up believing, but I think it is important to search for truth and nothing but. That means we shouldn't be making excuses for what the Quran supports or not, it should be entirely on logic and reason, not excuse making.

You can ask any scientist or visit any peer-reviewed journal for this information: Evolutionary, we can say that life formed from the Earth (or what became to be the earth). Their mode of reproduction was asexual. Then sexual reproduction occurred which allowed for more variation and more complexity in organisms. Through sexual reproduction, more variation more mutation occurred and allowed extremely complex multicellular organisms capable of thought, like humans to develop. These are known facts.

The Quran highlights this in Quran 32:7-9 (That what this post has been about mostly).

Quran 32:7 Who made good/better everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

^Creation began out of the Earth. Notice the word "began", That means that Allah started creation from the Earth.

Quran 32:8 Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

^THEN, sexual reproduction formed. (so life began forming and then sexual reproduction occured)

Quran 32:9 Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

^After the development of sexual reproduction, we were further proportioned and given higher intelligence. (Note: This verse is also referring to Adam-the father of the first group of humans who got sexually isolated from the others. This verse is referring to Adam as well because he was proportioned and given higher intelligence just as other Quranic verses say).


OUt of all of the scientific facts the Quran has, this one is THE. STRONGEST. ONE.

This one definitely beats some of the other scientific miracles in the Quran. This one is absolutely immense in accuracy! Here you have Allah highlighting how he created us and the steps he used. He tells us that he started out creation from the Earth, then sexual reproduction developed and then humans formed. Well-said!
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on December 07, 2013, 05:59:51 AM
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then I'll just have to agree to disagree with him/her.  The reason is because his/her view isn't a threat to any of Islam's Pillars.  It's a side and minor point.
It may not be of the pillars but this is no minor thing wither we're talking about the method of creation or rejecting half of Islam .

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Did you not see my point? This Quranic verse is exactly what you are doing. Upholding baseless hadith and diverting others from the path of God.....By upholding hadiths that deny evolution, you divert others from the path of God.

So I am Forging evidene. Quran 31:6 says "hadith". Hadith is obviously translated as idle talk, because the ahadith IS idle talk....
I had a lot of things to do with school and all so I hope you didn't think I had nothing to respond with . The sign talks about the idle (Amusement) of talk , that's correct . But you use your acrobatic explanations to come out with whatever you want . On what planet does that refer to Hadith ? Since when did "Idle of Talk" = "Talk" let alone "Best of talk" ? Once again , you talk as if a pig turning into an elephant and a bear into a whale is a fact . Brushing that aside gives no meaning to your point here .

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You take Allah creating Humans on friday afternoon and dipping your fly in the drink as a scientific miracle? I don't know what textbook your reading.
No seriously , on what planet do you live ? And just using rants about how "This is absurd !" doesn't make something wrong . You try to say "Look at that ! This is so stupid and unbelievable ! It must be corruption and lies !" but you don't back up your words with anything .

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I like what this article has to day, but dipping your fly in your drink a second time is not going to clean the drink up for you as the hadiths implies. This actually further supports my point,  the prophet said something similar to that, but it got wrongfully transmitted and the meaning therefore changed.
I swear I knew you'd say such a thing . So I prepared another link :
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/showthread.php?55209-%C7%E1%C7%DA%CC%C7%D2-%C7%E1%DA%E1%E3%ED-%DD%ED-%CD%CF%ED%CB-%C7%E1%D0%C8%C7%C8-%E6%C7%E1%D1%CF-%DA%E1%EC-%C7%E1%D3%DD%E1%C9-%C7%E1%D1%DA%C7%DA
And I know that even if the fly talks and says "You can clean your drink by dipping me in it again" you'd still disbelieve and ask for the testimony o two bees maybe !

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Just like the telephone game that we played back in grade school.
Go jump outta window .

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I said the science of hadith (hadith collection) is not a science its an art. It is not a perfect science, we find sahih hadiths contradictory....that proves my point.
Art my foot . Pointless and baseless claim . And once again , I won't let you escape answering : On what bases do you know history if you're going to abandon the most accurate perfected way of doing so ?

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First one: Agreed. YOu got evidence for evolution and the nonsense of hadiths
Again , go jump outta window .

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Third one: I follow you there, perhaps I am inpatient--that doesn't invalidate my evidence though.
Yes it does . If you're not willing to learn then shut it and spare us .

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Fourth one: I never accuse without evidence
False , you accuse with forged evidence and dust you think is evidence .

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You said that they tried really hard to make the hadiths good---how does that mean that hadiths are perfect and how does that mean that EVERYONE did that.
The lord said he will protect the revelation which he sent and that's the bottom of the line .

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I meant reasonable people testify that there are contradictions in hadiths. There are. There is proof.
Since when did "A nobody who doesn't know what he's talking about" mean "Reasonable people" ?

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I dont' think it is unwillingness when a hadiths says if A then B. And another hadiths says If A then C.
Once again , nothing to back it up . But in order to burst your bubble before it pops up , I'll say this : When someone says "I went to school today then dropped by my friend's house then I went home" and then he says "I went to school and returned home later" then no sane person can say there is a contradiction . When a companion mentions an incident in details and another mentions the general idea of what happened , no one can dare say there is a contradiction .

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That is absolutely relevant. The Quran said that through following hadiths, you will divert others from God. That is because the hadiths you uphold are false. This is happening as we speak. Quran brings you in support of evolution. Hadiths don't. So they divert others from Islam.
You need to be careful . I'm holding my nerves . If it was someone who can't and you were in front of them , you'll get punched . You desperately try to push your way through with what's in bold thinking that I'm as foolish as to let you do so . And until you prove it - and you won't - the rest of what you claim is nothing .

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Bro,
With such huge differences in basis of Islam , don't call me brother . You don't see me calling Shias so do you ?

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please go back and address my arguments. I am not twisting, I swear I am not twisting anything. I am being reasonable here, doing nothing but a rational and honest analysis of the Quran.  Please go back and refute this argument.
And I swear to the lord of heaven and Earth and what's between them that you're either lying or not knowing what you're talking about . We both swore , so go ahead and try to prove that you're the one being honest and right .


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While indeed your logical analysis makes sense, it is not the case with the Quran and I will explain why. NOT once did the Quran say that we are to follow Hadiths in which people said about the prophets. Call me crazy, but, If Allah wanted us to do such, he would have told us to do such.
Come again ? Are all these signs in this same post ordering to follow the sayings of the prophet written with invisible ink ?

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Think about it this way, If Allah intended that we are to follow the Quran and other revelations, would Allah not make that clear in the Quran? What if Allah's intention was to have us follow the Quran, how would he word his verses--the same way he did.

Telling us the prophet's ONLY duty is to give the message and specifying that the message is the Quran. Why didn't he specify that the message is also gonna be in hadith form??

That is how I see it.
There's no meaning to this if you don't answer what's before it .

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running away from? What? I have never done such a thing.
Then what do we call ignoring all these long quotes for five times ?

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I also wanted to say something about another verse that I know you will bring up:
"O you believe, obey God and obey the messenger and also those in charge among you"

You use the words "those in charge among you" in order to claim that the religious guru's have a right according to the Quran to have authority over the people and that they should be obeyed without question.

The term "those in charge among you" covers a wide variety of people. In order to determine who is actually entitled to have rightful authority over us, it would be quite logical to assert that this authority must be in accordance to God's law, in other words it must be a God given authority, and not an authority that is self claimed.

The following are some examples of rightful and righteous authority that is in harmony with the Quranic teachings:

    For a young boy/girl they should obey their parents who have authority over them during their younge dependent years.
    For a wife, she must obey her husband (in righteousness) as God decreed in the Quran.
    For an employee, he/she must obey their boss who has authority over them, but only within the framework of the profession
    For citizens, they must obey the established authorities (e.g. the courts, the police, etc). They must obey the law of the land as long as it does not violate God's law.
Actually , it didn't cross my mind . There are other things enough to prove you wrong .

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1.) This Quranic verse is telling us to find proof that the Quran is true by asking others. By investigating. This is irrelevant to the point you are trying to make.
How come ? It says to ask people rather than going to Quran itself . According to your logic , this sign is corrupted .

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2.) Obviously not because you have hadiths that contradict the QUran.
Vaguely saying "Obviously" doesn't help you .

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Also not everyone is a perfect follower of Quran.
The point is ?

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Also there were obviously those who fabricated hadiths who weren't even Muslim.
And you think people were so foolish as to be unable to identify what's fabricated ? Or do you think they were as lazy as you are ? One more thing , non Muslims are the first to be not accepted in taking Hadith . That's one of the most basic rules which I can clearly see you didn't bother read .

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Also there are also hypocrites.
"Also" I already answered that .

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Further there is also an extremely important point! The Quran is for all times and places as it states. So the science of the Quran could not have been known by hadith writers, so they put THEIR interpretation of the Quran in hadiths (like flat earth and other nonsense)..Do I have to go on?
Come again ? Flat what ? Now you listen Mr.Nonsense , you're not dealing with kindergarten children here . Any attempt to fool me is futile . And SERIOUSLY , on what planet do you live ?! A majority of scholars agreed that Earth is spherical and you rant about flat Earth ? Did you see now that you heard some stuff from here and there and got biased over it ? You have no idea of what you hate or what you defend . One more thing , if there is a sign with multiple possible explanations and Hadith says that only one of them is correct and states it , that's the end of the story . This doesn't in anyway contradict the fact that Quran is suitable for all times .

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3.) That is because the prophet Muhammad was completely following the Quran and made nothing new. He made no innovations. So if the prophet was following the Quran (that is a MUST) then everyone else was following the Quran. There was no "external sunnah", the Quran is the only sunnah. All of the nonsense you hear in hadiths are innovations and made and laws by the hadith makers. All the prophet did was clear up any problems the companions had with the Quran.
You know what , jump in a volcano . Baseless rant yet again which you clearly cannot back up .

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"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book (the Quran) fully detailed ?" 6:114 The Quran is fully detailed when it comes to religious matters and a source of law........If you say otherwise, then you are rejecting the Quran. How exactly can you reasonably avoid this?? The only way out is through excuse making...
So Allah is the one to set laws for us . You point is ? Are you playing around ?! I told you time and time again that Sunnah is also a revelation and I even brought you the start of the star Surah ! And no , I'm not the one rejecting Quran , you are the one rejecting Islam and inventing whatever he feels like .

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4.) You are presenting a reason to believe in hadiths, because they provide History. I tell you its not true history its false history.
For the third or fourth time , baseless rant .

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Further denying WW1 is ridiculous as we have evidence and even pictures. Denying a war from 1000+ years ago is more reasonable.
Why so ? Why do need to believe it happened ? I can just say that large numbers of people conspired and made this myth called WW1 . Here , I'm using the same logic you use . I don't deny it of course .

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I hope this debate continues. I know it is very hard for people to let go of thing they were brought up believing, but I think it is important to search for truth and nothing but. That means we shouldn't be making excuses for what the Quran supports or not, it should be entirely on logic and reason, not excuse making.
You have seriously gotta be kidding me . Are not you the one who told the Canadian "My parents brought me on that 1+1=2" ? Yet , there's no point in what you say in the first place .


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You can ask any scientist or visit any peer-reviewed journal for this information: Evolutionary, we can say that life formed from the Earth (or what became to be the earth). Their mode of reproduction was asexual. Then sexual reproduction occurred which allowed for more variation and more complexity in organisms. Through sexual reproduction, more variation more mutation occurred and allowed extremely complex multicellular organisms capable of thought, like humans to develop. These are known facts.
So let me get this straight : Evolution is right because they teach it in universities ? Now who's the one who doesn't want to abandon what he was brought up on ?

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OUt of all of the scientific facts the Quran has, this one is THE. STRONGEST. ONE.
Yeah right , and dinosaurs became birds because they were trying to catch flies . Wait  , you do believe so !

One last thing to say is that I'm not fooled by your masks . You're a bad actor actually . You try to look like an innocent person terrorized and insulted by a pope or something . I never forget what makes me angry , that includes your lack of basic manner when talking about Allah and Islam and the prophet peace upon him and his companions . And unless you learn , don't expect me to treat you with respect . I had more respectful arguments with Christians and even Atheists .
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: mclinkin94 on December 07, 2013, 07:02:30 PM
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It may not be of the pillars but this is no minor thing wither we're talking about the method of creation or rejecting half of Islam .

The method of creation is clear in the Quran. You are the one rejecting it.

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Did you not see my point? This Quranic verse is exactly what you are doing. Upholding baseless hadith and diverting others from the path of God.....By upholding hadiths that deny evolution, you divert others from the path of God.

So I am Forging evidene. Quran 31:6 says "hadith". Hadith is obviously translated as idle talk, because the ahadith IS idle talk....
I had a lot of things to do with school and all so I hope you didn't think I had nothing to respond with . The sign talks about the idle (Amusement) of talk , that's correct . But you use your acrobatic explanations to come out with whatever you want . On what planet does that refer to Hadith ? Since when did "Idle of Talk" = "Talk" let alone "Best of talk" ? Once again , you talk as if a pig turning into an elephant and a bear into a whale is a fact . Brushing that aside gives no meaning to your point here .

Hadith is exactly that. This is not an acrobatic explanation. Do you define acrobatic explanations as reasonable explanations? I don't get how any of it is acrobatic. Are you saying that the Hadiths that you follow are not the same as the type of hadith the Quran is referring to? I disagree.  Why do you think they were named Hadiths?? My argument remains, the Quran is referring to what you are doing--diverting others from the path of God through using baseless hadiths.

Secondly, the Quran refers to itself as a hadith:

God has revealed herein the best hadith; a book that is consistent, and points out both ways." 39:23

"Let them produce a hadith like this, if they are truthful." 52:34

"Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this hadith; we will lead them on whence they never perceive." 68:44


The Quran is a hadith, but it certainly isn't a baseless hadith. The hadiths you follow are baseless both logically (the way it is transmitted) and scientifically (how it contradicts science).


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You take Allah creating Humans on friday afternoon and dipping your fly in the drink as a scientific miracle? I don't know what textbook your reading.
No seriously , on what planet do you live ? And just using rants about how "This is absurd !" doesn't make something wrong . You try to say "Look at that ! This is so stupid and unbelievable ! It must be corruption and lies !" but you don't back up your words with anything .

The scientific method as well as reasoned logic is how I determine if something is factually absurd. Humans created in literal days at a certain day (friday) as your 'sahih' hadith (an oxymoron) implies is factually absurd. Dipping your fly on a drink again is not going to clean the drink nor do anything. Your faith in hadiths is blind--the worst kind. Science has ruled that out completely, there is not way those could be true. Simple as that.

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I like what this article has to day, but dipping your fly in your drink a second time is not going to clean the drink up for you as the hadiths implies. This actually further supports my point,  the prophet said something similar to that, but it got wrongfully transmitted and the meaning therefore changed.
I swear I knew you'd say such a thing . So I prepared another link :
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/showthread.php?55209-%C7%E1%C7%DA%CC%C7%D2-%C7%E1%DA%E1%E3%ED-%DD%ED-%CD%CF%ED%CB-%C7%E1%D0%C8%C7%C8-%E6%C7%E1%D1%CF-%DA%E1%EC-%C7%E1%D3%DD%E1%C9-%C7%E1%D1%DA%C7%DA
And I know that even if the fly talks and says "You can clean your drink by dipping me in it again" you'd still disbelieve and ask for the testimony o two bees maybe !

I'm still not compelled. It is way more reasonable to say that the prophet said something similar, but the people quoted him wrongly-as we have seen with many contradictory sahih hadiths. Just like the telephone game--have you ever played it? How often is the last speech the same as the first? Secondly, why don't we do an experiment--dip the fly in the drink once and measure the amount of pathogens. Then dip it again with the other wing and measure the amount of pathogens. What do you think will occur?

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Just like the telephone game that we played back in grade school.
Go jump outta window .

Wow you really debunked me there. You know how bad the telephone game can get at giving and spreading information.

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I said the science of hadith (hadith collection) is not a science its an art. It is not a perfect science, we find sahih hadiths contradictory....that proves my point.
Art my foot . Pointless and baseless claim . And once again , I won't let you escape answering : On what bases do you know history if you're going to abandon the most accurate perfected way of doing so ?

I don't appreciate how you reject evidence and call your hadiths perfect. IT si not a perfect science, it is an art that isn't even competent.


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Third one: I follow you there, perhaps I am inpatient--that doesn't invalidate my evidence though.
Yes it does . If you're not willing to learn then shut it and spare us .

So you are saying that being impatient necessarily leads you to the wrong conclusion. That is logically incoherent. Does not invalidate my evidence, you must address the points. I do agree that perhaps some of my understanding and yours as well are impatient, I am willing to find the truth if good arguments are made. I haven't gotten those good arguments [/quote]

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Fourth one: I never accuse without evidence
False , you accuse with forged evidence and dust you think is evidence .

LOL, The evidence for evolution (especially the genetic evidence) and the Quranic teaching is forged, but not the hadith..LOL

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The lord said he will protect the revelation which he sent and that's the bottom of the line .

Think about it. If the Quran was referring to Hadiths as being protected, then that would be a Quranic contradiction because hadiths are recognized to be unprotected. You have various contradictions between the Quran and Hadith. Between hadith and Hadith.

What does the Quran mean by protecting the revelation? In other words, did the Quran tell the prophet what the revelation was? Did the Quran say it was hadiths? NO!

"Say (O Muhammad), "What is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me to warn you with it and whomever it reaches." 6:19

This testimony which God describes as "Akbar Shahada" (the Greatest Testimony) commands Muhammad to testify that He received the Quran from God. This testimony speaks of only one revelation received by Muhammad from God which is the Quran. If Muhammad truly received other revelations from God (other than the Quran), would we not find any mention of it in the Quran? Would God hide the fact that He gave Muhammad a revelation independent of the Quran and then command us to obey it?
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I meant reasonable people testify that there are contradictions in hadiths. There are. There is proof.
Since when did "A nobody who doesn't know what he's talking about" mean "Reasonable people" ?

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I dont' think it is unwillingness when a hadiths says if A then B. And another hadiths says If A then C.
Once again , nothing to back it up . But in order to burst your bubble before it pops up , I'll say this : When someone says "I went to school today then dropped by my friend's house then I went home" and then he says "I went to school and returned home later" then no sane person can say there is a contradiction . When a companion mentions an incident in details and another mentions the general idea of what happened , no one can dare say there is a contradiction .

I don't think you know about logical fallacies. Why do I debate with someone who doesn't understand logical fallacies? If a hadith says if x THEN Y and another hadith says if x THEN z, it is a contradiction.

Here is an example:

Narrated Ibn Abbas:
The last Verse (in the Quran) revealed to the Prophet was the Verse dealing with
usury (i.e. Riba). [Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, #67]
 
Narrated Al-Bara:
 
and the last Verse that was revealed was: "They ask you for a legal verdict, Say:
Allah's directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs."
(4.176) [Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, #129]
The same is also mentioned in Sahih Muslim.


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That is absolutely relevant. The Quran said that through following hadiths, you will divert others from God. That is because the hadiths you uphold are false. This is happening as we speak. Quran brings you in support of evolution. Hadiths don't. So they divert others from Islam.
You need to be careful . I'm holding my nerves . If it was someone who can't and you were in front of them , you'll get punched . You desperately try to push your way through with what's in bold thinking that I'm as foolish as to let you do so . And until you prove it - and you won't - the rest of what you claim is nothing .

Why didn't you address my argument again? Of course I am getting on your nerves, I am questioning your blatantly false beliefs. I think you know that I am right, but you are just unwilling to reject hadiths because they provide good explanations for you. You've said this before, "if we reject hadiths, then how do we account for...". this is again logically incoherent. It doesn't matter what hadiths explain, you cannot acccept them and remain reasonable. The Quran prohibits it and it is actually a Quranic prophesy. There will be people like you who uphold BASELESS hadiths and divert others from the path of God. Look at how clear that verse is and how accurate it is. Allahu Akbar!

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With such huge differences in basis of Islam , don't call me brother . You don't see me calling Shias so do you ?

I call shiahs brother. I call Christians brother. I call athiests brother. Shias are just like you--misinformed and upholding baseless hadiths.

You say "my scholars are better than yours", "my hadiths are better than yours".

Why don't you listen to a Shia Scholar making a belief based on his false hadiths.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfnr6I8B5wY

You are no better than him. Unfortunately, I agree with him. Based on the hadith fabrications about Aisha saying things about the prophet--Aisha appears to be a hypocrite. But I doubt that is the real Aisha and her sayings.

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While indeed your logical analysis makes sense, it is not the case with the Quran and I will explain why. NOT once did the Quran say that we are to follow Hadiths in which people said about the prophets. Call me crazy, but, If Allah wanted us to do such, he would have told us to do such.
Come again ? Are all these signs in this same post ordering to follow the sayings of the prophet written with invisible ink ?

If Allah wanted us to follow something besides the Quran, He would have told us so. But he told us the complete opposite in the Quran.

"Obey the messenger" means to obey ONLY the message he came with. And the message that the prophet came with is nothing more than the Quran--as the Quran states. Why didn't it say that there would be other messages?

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Think about it this way, If Allah intended that we are to follow the Quran and other revelations, would Allah not make that clear in the Quran? What if Allah's intention was to have us follow the Quran, how would he word his verses--the same way he did.

Telling us the prophet's ONLY duty is to give the message and specifying that the message is the Quran. Why didn't he specify that the message is also gonna be in hadith form??

That is how I see it.
There's no meaning to this if you don't answer what's before it .

WHy don't you answer. There IS meaning to it.

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running away from? What? I have never done such a thing.
Then what do we call ignoring all these long quotes for five times ?

What quotes are you referring to, I have answered everything? Bring anything that remains unanswered to my attention and I will happily reply.


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1.) This Quranic verse is telling us to find proof that the Quran is true by asking others. By investigating. This is irrelevant to the point you are trying to make.
How come ? It says to ask people rather than going to Quran itself . According to your logic , this sign is corrupted .

Firstly, it is referring to the people back then and is un-applicable to us. But even if it was applicable to us, then it would would mean to get testimony from others AND reflecting upon them! Not just blindly accepting them...this is obvious. But too much for you to make that conclusion.

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2.) Obviously not because you have hadiths that contradict the QUran.
Vaguely saying "Obviously" doesn't help you .

If you want, I could flood this blog with examples. Let me know.

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Also not everyone is a perfect follower of Quran.
The point is ?

The point is we cannot count on the people who wrote hadiths, because not all of them are perfect followers or understanders of the Quran. Do I seriously have to lay everything out for you like this? Please think for yourself.

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Also there were obviously those who fabricated hadiths who weren't even Muslim.
And you think people were so foolish as to be unable to identify what's fabricated ? Or do you think they were as lazy as you are ? One more thing , non Muslims are the first to be not accepted in taking Hadith . That's one of the most basic rules which I can clearly see you didn't bother read .

YES! You have evidence of that through hadith contradictions. Do you know how they primarily determine whether a hadith is authentic, by looking at the line of transmission and determining whether they have good character? Think now; Couldn't the fabricator, also fabricate the Hadith line of transmission????

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Also there are also hypocrites.
"Also" I already answered that .

You failed to read my question in context. You are saying that you can trust hadiths because those who said it are followers of the Quran, Is say:

-Some aren't followers of the Quran
-Some are ignorant of parts the Quran
-Some are hypocrites

^this debunks your argument.

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Further there is also an extremely important point! The Quran is for all times and places as it states. So the science of the Quran could not have been known by hadith writers, so they put THEIR interpretation of the Quran in hadiths (like flat earth and other nonsense)..Do I have to go on?
Come again ? Flat what ? Now you listen Mr.Nonsense , you're not dealing with kindergarten children here . Any attempt to fool me is futile . And SERIOUSLY , on what planet do you live ?! A majority of scholars agreed that Earth is spherical and you rant about flat Earth ? Did you see now that you heard some stuff from here and there and got biased over it ? You have no idea of what you hate or what you defend . One more thing , if there is a sign with multiple possible explanations and Hadith says that only one of them is correct and states it , that's the end of the story . This doesn't in anyway contradict the fact that Quran is suitable for all times .

Are you saying that the Quran doesn't have things that would be understood in the future? This would reject the QUran's timelessness, Osama's entire work on scientific miracles of the QUran that have just been discovered and it would contradict this verse:

"For every (revealed) tiding there is a term set for its fulfillment
and in time you will come to know." Qur'an 6: 67.



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3.) That is because the prophet Muhammad was completely following the Quran and made nothing new. He made no innovations. So if the prophet was following the Quran (that is a MUST) then everyone else was following the Quran. There was no "external sunnah", the Quran is the only sunnah. All of the nonsense you hear in hadiths are innovations and made and laws by the hadith makers. All the prophet did was clear up any problems the companions had with the Quran.
You know what , jump in a volcano . Baseless rant yet again which you clearly cannot back up .

Which hadith, other than this (Quran), do they uphold?" 77:50
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"These are God's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6

Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6:114



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"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book (the Quran) fully detailed ?" 6:114 The Quran is fully detailed when it comes to religious matters and a source of law........If you say otherwise, then you are rejecting the Quran. How exactly can you reasonably avoid this?? The only way out is through excuse making...
So Allah is the one to set laws for us . You point is ? Are you playing around ?! I told you time and time again that Sunnah is also a revelation and I even brought you the start of the star Surah ! And no , I'm not the one rejecting Quran , you are the one rejecting Islam and inventing whatever he feels like .

You have the burden of proof of saying why the Sunnah is also a revelation brought to us. This is especially true since the Quran says that you are to only follow what it says as a source of law. Does the Quran refer you to the Sunnah, if so, prove it. I'll be waiting for this one.

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4.) You are presenting a reason to believe in hadiths, because they provide History. I tell you its not true history its false history.
For the third or fourth time , baseless rant .

Nah, I am simply presenting the reason why you admitted that you are unwilling to reject hadiths. It is because they provide vital historical explanations for you. But as we have just seen, they aren't very accurate.

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Further denying WW1 is ridiculous as we have evidence and even pictures. Denying a war from 1000+ years ago is more reasonable.

Why so ? Why do need to believe it happened ? I can just say that large numbers of people conspired and made this myth called WW1 . Here , I'm using the same logic you use . I don't deny it of course .

If WW1 was transmitted from speech like the telephone game and those speeches have contradictions, then you can say that the events at WW1 are questionable. That is my logic.

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I hope this debate continues. I know it is very hard for people to let go of thing they were brought up believing, but I think it is important to search for truth and nothing but. That means we shouldn't be making excuses for what the Quran supports or not, it should be entirely on logic and reason, not excuse making.
You have seriously gotta be kidding me . Are not you the one who told the Canadian "My parents brought me on that 1+1=2" ? Yet , there's no point in what you say in the first place .

Did you not get my point? I said that we shouldn't make excuses to believing something, it should be entirely on logic/reason/evidence/rationality/intellectual honesty.

So if your parents taught you that 1+1=3, and I present reasons as to why the answer is 2, you shouldn't make excuses to justify your initial statement.


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You can ask any scientist or visit any peer-reviewed journal for this information: Evolutionary, we can say that life formed from the Earth (or what became to be the earth). Their mode of reproduction was asexual. Then sexual reproduction occurred which allowed for more variation and more complexity in organisms. Through sexual reproduction, more variation more mutation occurred and allowed extremely complex multicellular organisms capable of thought, like humans to develop. These are known facts.
So let me get this straight : Evolution is right because they teach it in universities ? Now who's the one who doesn't want to abandon what he was brought up on ?

Did I say that or did I say that you should analyze those journals and see the evidence for yourself? You must do it while remaining honest and faithful to yourself. There is so much evidence that posting it here would take years.

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OUt of all of the scientific facts the Quran has, this one is THE. STRONGEST. ONE.
Yeah right , and dinosaurs became birds because they were trying to catch flies . Wait  , you do believe so !

Ignorance to such a degree! The only cure for this disease is knowledge. PLEASE get  yourself educated, it is not even worth my time to explain this. you have the world's knowledge at the tips of your fingers! The Quran encourages to seek knowledge, so follow that COMMANDMENT.

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One last thing to say is that I'm not fooled by your masks . You're a bad actor actually . You try to look like an innocent person terrorized and insulted by a pope or something . I never forget what makes me angry , that includes your lack of basic manner when talking about Allah and Islam and the prophet peace upon him and his companions . And unless you learn , don't expect me to treat you with respect . I had more respectful arguments with Christians and even Atheists .

Lots of emotional arguments here. So I will reject them. I operate on nothing more than logic and reason and rationality and intellectual honesty. If this is too much for you, then I apologize.

I love Allah and I love the prophet Muhammad. NOT the hadith representation of them.

Further, I do admire saying "peace be upon him", but it is not a quranic concept. The Quran doesn't say "peace be upon him" when referring to a prophet, it is a human innovation--but a benign one. I don't reject it, I admire it---
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: Black Muslim on December 12, 2013, 07:36:45 AM
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The method of creation is clear in the Quran. You are the one rejecting it.
Rant

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Hadith is exactly that. This is not an acrobatic explanation. Do you define acrobatic explanations as reasonable explanations? I don't get how any of it is acrobatic. Are you saying that the Hadiths that you follow are not the same as the type of hadith the Quran is referring to? I disagree.  Why do you think they were named Hadiths?? My argument remains, the Quran is referring to what you are doing--diverting others from the path of God through using baseless hadiths.
Rant .

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The Quran is a hadith, but it certainly isn't a baseless hadith. The hadiths you follow are baseless both logically (the way it is transmitted) and scientifically (how it contradicts science).
You can take your own opinion and throw it anywhere else . Bluffing holds no value .

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The scientific method as well as reasoned logic is how I determine if something is factually absurd. Humans created in literal days at a certain day (friday) as your 'sahih' hadith (an oxymoron) implies is factually absurd. Dipping your fly on a drink again is not going to clean the drink nor do anything. Your faith in hadiths is blind--the worst kind. Science has ruled that out completely, there is not way those could be true. Simple as that.
I ask Allah to take away the sense of sight from you . You don't use it in the first place . More rant about how you follow science while it's innocent of you . You can spam all this baby complaining however you like and it doesn't change a thing . Just because you - a nobody - thinks creating father Adam - or even the entire human race - is impossible doesn't mean it is . Just because you're a coward who just ignored the link I provided about flies it doesn't mean it's wrong . Simple as that .

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I'm still not compelled.
Then screw your opinion . We don't need it .

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Just like the telephone game--have you ever played it? How often is the last speech the same as the first?
And I ask the lord to take away the sense of hearing from you . You don't seem to use it either .

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Secondly, why don't we do an experiment--dip the fly in the drink once and measure the amount of pathogens. Then dip it again with the other wing and measure the amount of pathogens. What do you think will occur?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uxu-wKE9s1c
Minute 24 . If you still deny after this , you're completely hopeless .
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/showthread.php?55209-%C7%E1%C7%DA%CC%C7%D2-%C7%E1%DA%E1%E3%ED-%DD%ED-%CD%CF%ED%CB-%C7%E1%D0%C8%C7%C8-%E6%C7%E1%D1%CF-%DA%E1%EC-%C7%E1%D3%DD%E1%C9-%C7%E1%D1%DA%C7%DA
By the way , the name of the thread is "The scientific miracle in flies and answering the lowly mobs" . Do you insist on having those characteristics said about you ?

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Wow you really debunked me there.
The only thing you had was some ridiculous ideas and children talk . There was nothing to refute in the first place . And when you act like a kid , you'll be treated like a kid . Ironically , from what I heard , you're over 20 years old .

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I don't appreciate how you reject evidence and call your hadiths perfect. IT si not a perfect science, it is an art that isn't even competent.
There's no evidence to begin with . You're just pathetically trying to force your way through saying "I'm smart and you're stupid" . And when you try to make "evidence" you end up only proving yourself wrong .

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So you are saying that being impatient necessarily leads you to the wrong conclusion. That is logically incoherent. Does not invalidate my evidence, you must address the points. I do agree that perhaps some of my understanding and yours as well are impatient, I am willing to find the truth if good arguments are made. I haven't gotten those good arguments
You admit that you know 0 of anything you despise so much and then dare talk about it ?

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LOL, The evidence for evolution (especially the genetic evidence) and the Quranic teaching is forged, but not the hadith..LOL
If you were in front of me , I'd have slapped you really . You dare make it look like I accuse Quran of being forged you ............. ? You know what , forget it .

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Think about it. If the Quran was referring to Hadiths as being protected, then that would be a Quranic contradiction because hadiths are recognized to be unprotected. You have various contradictions between the Quran and Hadith. Between hadith and Hadith.
And some claim that Quran is corrupted and has contradictions , that doesn't help them .

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This testimony which God describes as "Akbar Shahada" (the Greatest Testimony) commands Muhammad to testify that He received the Quran from God. This testimony speaks of only one revelation received by Muhammad from God which is the Quran. If Muhammad truly received other revelations from God (other than the Quran), would we not find any mention of it in the Quran? Would God hide the fact that He gave Muhammad a revelation independent of the Quran and then command us to obey it?
More rant and cowardice of addressing the answer to the same rusty point .

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I don't think you know about logical fallacies. Why do I debate with someone who doesn't understand logical fallacies?
First of all , with this low level , I can't call it a debate . It's just exposing nonsense for what it is . And here I am wasting my time on some guy who doesn't know what he's talking about , contradicts his own words , brings evidence against him ans uses it as if it helps , and has a foul mouth while talking about the creator , Islam , and its prophet peace upon him .

Here is an example:

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Narrated Ibn Abbas:
The last Verse (in the Quran) revealed to the Prophet was the Verse dealing with
usury (i.e. Riba). [Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, #67]
 
Narrated Al-Bara:
 
and the last Verse that was revealed was: "They ask you for a legal verdict, Say:
Allah's directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs."
(4.176) [Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, #129]
The same is also mentioned in Sahih Muslim.
You embarrass yourself again because you lack even the tiniest shreds of knowledge about what you attack . Do you know what "A correct chain" means ? As the name says , it's a correct chain . Still , to who does the chain go in both of those ? They go to two different companions who said what they knew . It doesn't say "The prophet said" . Do you understand what that means or do I need to make it simpler ? OK then , simple it is . It means that the chain is absolutely correct in going to the two companions of the prophet . Here , the two have different opinions based on their knowledge . So therefore , one of them thought that the last sign to be revealed is a certain one but he didn't know that another was revealed after it . Still , the narration to the companion is correct .
So what now ? Is is a pillar of Islam to know what's the last sign revealed ?

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Why didn't you address my argument again? Of course I am getting on your nerves, I am questioning your blatantly false beliefs.
What arguments ? are they also written with invisible ink ?

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I think you know that I am right, but you are just unwilling to reject hadiths because they provide good explanations for you. You've said this before, "if we reject hadiths, then how do we account for...". this is again logically incoherent. It doesn't matter what hadiths explain, you cannot acccept them and remain reasonable. The Quran prohibits it and it is actually a Quranic prophesy. There will be people like you who uphold BASELESS hadiths and divert others from the path of God. Look at how clear that verse is and how accurate it is
Well I think you could be a bigoted Jewish man trying to corrupt the beliefs of Muslims . That doesn't change a thing . It doesn't matter to you if I bring a million book or dictionary proving you wrong . You'd still ignore it and keep floating in your lala world where you're a God who's always right and all else is wrong . Ignorance and arrogance are a deadly combination .
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I call shiahs brother. I call Christians brother. I call athiests brother. Shias are just like you--misinformed and upholding baseless hadiths.

You say "my scholars are better than yours", "my hadiths are better than yours".

Why don't you listen to a Shia Scholar making a belief based on his false hadiths.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfnr6I8B5wY

You are no better than him. Unfortunately, I agree with him. Based on the hadith fabrications about Aisha saying things about the prophet--Aisha appears to be a hypocrite. But I doubt that is the real Aisha and her sayings.
And on this one , I ask Allah to curse you along with that bastard accusing a mother of believers ! The more you talk the more I see how low a life form you are .
As for the rest , typical rant of you .


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If Allah wanted us to follow something besides the Quran, He would have told us so. But he told us the complete opposite in the Quran.

"Obey the messenger" means to obey ONLY the message he came with. And the message that the prophet came with is nothing more than the Quran--as the Quran states. Why didn't it say that there would be other messages?
The only thing making me keep going with you is that I fear some commoners who know not might actually be fooled by you . Otherwise , I would have spared myself all this headache because of reading such nonsense time and time again .
No backing up of what you claim , so just like 90% of your posts , I'll ignore it .

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WHy don't you answer. There IS meaning to it.
Didn't see you answering what I said before it .

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What quotes are you referring to, I have answered everything? Bring anything that remains unanswered to my attention and I will happily reply.
Look here kiddo , I won't tire myself every damn time bringing you something I repeat almost every two posts . You have page in front of you , so get of your seat and work a little lazy head .

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Firstly, it is referring to the people back then and is un-applicable to us. .
What evidence do you have that it isn't ?

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But even if it was applicable to us, then it would would mean to get testimony from others AND reflecting upon them! Not just blindly accepting them...this is obvious. But too much for you to make that conclusion
What evidence do you have that it is ? Of course I don't say we should ask Jews and Christians - who corrupted their own books - about our noble Quran . I'm just using your logic here .

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If you want, I could flood this blog with examples. Let me know.
So either you bring nothing at all or you "flood" the place with nonsense and lies . Yeah , typical .

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The point is we cannot count on the people who wrote hadiths, because not all of them are perfect followers or understanders of the Quran. Do I seriously have to lay everything out for you like this? Please think for yourself.
The guy who believes in evolution because "scientists" said so dares tell me to think ? As for your point , who gives you the right talk about them saying they're misguided while you don't even know their names ? There is absolutely no logical or scriptural reason to say that the prophet didn't give teachings other than Quran . And if he did , then it is a necessity that they were preserved . And we don't wait for the approval of a nobody to work with those teachings .

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YES! You have evidence of that through hadith contradictions. Do you know how they primarily determine whether a hadith is authentic, by looking at the line of transmission and determining whether they have good character? Think now; Couldn't the fabricator, also fabricate the Hadith line of transmission?
No they can't . I won't repeat . Either you abandon this massive ego and arrogance of yours to learn the first basics of hadith or there's no point . I don't have the time giving you a course of it because you're too lazy old man .
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You failed to read my question in context. You are saying that you can trust hadiths because those who said it are followers of the Quran, Is say:

-Some aren't followers of the Quran
-Some are ignorant of parts the Quran
-Some are hypocrites

^this debunks your argument.
This only proves you as an ignorant yet more . First of all Mr.Amnesia , those "Some aren't followers of Quran" are the first to be not accepted in any chain . I said it in the last post . Secondly , oh ! And I suppose YOU know about Quran ?! The one who doesn't even understand what he reads ?! Thirdly , you aren't someone to say people are hypocrites so jump outta window if you're mad .

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Are you saying that the Quran doesn't have things that would be understood in the future?
A low attempt . A 5 years old wouldn't understand that from my post .

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Which hadith, other than this (Quran), do they uphold?" 77:50
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"These are God's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6

Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6:114
Truthful is Allah . Now really , on what planet do you live ? Quran is the first source of laws for us and it tells us to obey the messenger as nothing he says about Islam is out of revelation .

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You have the burden of proof of saying why the Sunnah is also a revelation brought to us.
Look at what you quoted blind man .

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Nah, I am simply presenting the reason why you admitted that you are unwilling to reject hadiths. It is because they provide vital historical explanations for you. But as we have just seen, they aren't very accurate.
That is one out of many ways to respond to you and clearly , you fail to address the point .

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If WW1 was transmitted from speech like the telephone game and those speeches have contradictions, then you can say that the events at WW1 are questionable. That is my logic.
Come talk when you prove that these contradictions exist in other than your dreams .

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Did you not get my point? I said that we shouldn't make excuses to believing something, it should be entirely on logic/reason/evidence/rationality/intellectual honesty.
Good , then you should abandon what you were brainwashed with .

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Did I say that or did I say that you should analyze those journals and see the evidence for yourself? You must do it while remaining honest and faithful to yourself. There is so much evidence that posting it here would take years.
In short , all that "evidence" doesn't go out of one of these :
1 - Faking
2 - Forcing an evolutionary explanation on anything
3 - Brainwashing people by TV

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Ignorance to such a degree! The only cure for this disease is knowledge. PLEASE get  yourself educated, it is not even worth my time to explain this. you have the world's knowledge at the tips of your fingers! The Quran encourages to seek knowledge, so follow that COMMANDMENT.
Hello , your "God" Darwin said so . And from what I see so far , they still believe so . Only a dysfunctional brain can say that creation is absurd while deers turning to giraffs is science . Oh , and here :
http://www.omniology.com/DINO-BIRD-FAIRY-TALE.jpg

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Lots of emotional arguments here. So I will reject them. I operate on nothing more than logic and reason and rationality and intellectual honesty. If this is too much for you, then I apologize.
You accuse me of emotional arguments and you use one in the same freaking line ? Ironic .

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I love Allah and I love the prophet Muhammad. NOT the hadith representation of them.
You don't like what doesn't match your selfish desires even if it was as clear as the sun in the middle of day . A foul mouthed manner-lacking man who insults Allah and his prophet dares say this ?

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Further, I do admire saying "peace be upon him", but it is not a quranic concept. The Quran doesn't say "peace be upon him" when referring to a prophet, it is a human innovation--but a benign one. I don't reject it, I admire it---
A human innovation ?! I keep getting more assured that you don't read Quran .
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Indeed, Allah confers blessing upon the Prophet, and His angels [ask Him to do so]. O you who have believed, ask [ Allah to confer] blessing upon him and ask [ Allah to grant him] peace.

So let's review :
1 - You claim that evolution is right . You claim that Quran and science prove it . I tell you that Quran and science are innocent of such a thing and that Sunnah also rejects it . You refuse Sunnah and claim that you can prove it from Quran alone . You bring signs and explain them however you like . You bring a page of Yahoo answers which proves you wrong along with a translation site doing the same . I keep repeating time and time out that you're wrong and show you why you're wrong and even have to go into the basic roots of words in Arabic . You call me unwilling and rant about it .
2 - You claim that Sunnah is corrupted and use a load of lies and personal opinions to prove it . I respond to them one by one . You call me unwilling and rant about it .

And considering how I wasted all that time of my days , the next time you return to post I'll either respond in brief - saving time - or not respond at all depending on what you write .

And no peace .
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: QuranSearchCom on December 12, 2013, 05:11:20 PM
Ok beloveds.  I am freezing this thread.  No need to allow the resentment to grow.  If anyone has final or closing statements to make, then please send them to me and I'll post them here.  I'll take charge of this conversation hence forward.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: QuranSearchCom on December 13, 2013, 04:38:01 AM
Here is a response from brother Mclinkin94:

Unfortunately, this thread was closed before I could answer. To address your final points: The Quran and Science are not innocent of Evolution. That is an extraordinary claim that will need extraordinary evidence which you haven't presented. Going as far as challenging science and the Quran is going to need a lot of evidence to back that up. You referred to my arguments against the Sunnah as personal. That is a lie, it is completely objective. If you haven't noticed, there really was no subjectivity to my sunnah arguments. It was all an honest constructive criticism based upon a reasonable and rational analysis of Hadiths and the 'science' behind them. 

Thirdly, I have shown you many times even with the yahoo link that my interpretation fits  and how Sahih international supported my translation and not only that I have shown you that even your interpretation of that word supports the Quranic account for evolution! But you never accounted for this and you remained supporting your beliefs without addressing my arguments.  I think you know that I am right. Not only that I have presented so many evolutionary arguments that you haven't addressed.  Nevertheless, the rhetorical method of debate you use does not compel me nor should it compel any honest person. You say that you respond to me one-by-one and I respond to you one-by-one as well. This goes both ways. You say that you have proved me wrong, and I have proved you wrong in that as well. you call what I do rants, when they are clearly objective. I can call everything you do as rants, but I do not.  Why? Because using a dishonest rhetorical method in debate is not compelling to anyone honest. I don't think you have wasted your time, I think you have gained a slight push on your quest to rationality.  No one who denies the Quranic and scientific evidence of evolution can be considered rational, it would be like denying Earth's roundness.
Title: Re: An advice to mclinkin94
Post by: QuranSearchCom on December 13, 2013, 04:40:46 AM
As'salamu Alaikum everyone,

I've been swamped with so many things that I hardly had time for anything.  I will go over the discussion on this thread and give my evidence in the near future Insha'Allah.  It is an interesting and an important topic for today's world.  Evolution is a big topic, regardless whether it is a true or false belief.  I will Insha'Allah give my contribution to the discussion in the near future.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah