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MAIN BOARD (You must register to post) => WOMEN | MORALITY | MODESTY | CHASTITY vs OBSCENITY | OBLIGATIONS & RIGHTS | FEMINISM => In Islam => Topic started by: Antiaparteid on September 17, 2012, 12:35:29 am

Title: Allah blesses women
Post by: Antiaparteid on September 17, 2012, 12:35:29 am
Every muslim should find out for him/herself what islam really mean; and what it means to be muslim.

Every muslim women must ask, herself and allah, if being muslim means getting half a man's share; being rendered being half mentally adept; having to share a husband; etc. If allah could bless marium with a son immaculately, how much more can he bless you as a woman? With allah, anything is possible. We, as women don't have to submit to men. Only submit to allah. He could if he wanted give you a child without using a man's sperm; give you food in abundance without your having ever worked a day in your life or having been someone's wife. Amin.

Muslims like to ask christians questions, to question christianity. But, muslims should question muslims about islam. Question the dictatorship. Question the discrimination. Question the bloodshed. Question the poverty. Question the characters of the muslim scholars.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Egyptian on September 17, 2012, 12:12:38 pm
Every muslim should find out for him/herself what islam really mean; and what it means to be muslim.

without having Islamic educational background ,one could find out ,Islam of his/her own imagination.


Every muslim women must ask, herself and allah, if being muslim means getting half a man's share

well,

Quote from: Sherif Muhammad Kingston, University of Essex Islamic Society
 link=topic=249.msg589#msg589 date=1347860129

FEMALE INHERITANCE


One of the most important differences between the Quran and the Bible is their attitude towards female inheritance of the property of a deceased relative.The Biblical attitude has been succinctly described by Rabbi Epstein: "The continuous and unbroken tradition since the Biblical days gives the female members of the household, wife and daughters, no right of succession to the family estate. In the more primitive scheme of succession, the female members of the family were considered part of the estate and as remote from the legal personality of an heir as the slave. Whereas by Mosaic enactment the daughters were admitted to succession in the event of no male issue remained, the wife was not recognized as heir even in such conditions." Why were the female members of the family considered part of the family estate? Rabbi Epstein has the answer:
"They are owned --before marriage, by the father; after marriage, by the husband." The Biblical rules of inheritance are outlined in Numbers 27:1-11. A wife is given no share in her husband's estate, while he is her first heir, even before her sons. A daughter can inherit only if no male heirs exist. A mother is not an heir at all while the father is. Widows and daughters, in case male children remained, were at the mercy of the male heirs for provision. That is why widows and orphan girls were among the most destitute members of the Jewish society.Christianity has followed suit for long time. Both the ecclesiastical and civil laws of Christendom barred daughters from sharing with their brothers in the father's patrimony. Besides, wives were deprived of any inheritance rights. These iniquitous laws survived till late in the last century.Among the pagan Arabs before Islam, inheritance rights were confined exclusively to the male relatives. The Quran abolished all these unjust customs and gave all the female relatives inheritance shares:"From what is left by parents and those nearest related there is a share for men and a share for women, whether the property be small or large --a determinate share" (4:7).Muslim mothers, wives, daughters, and sisters had received inheritance rights thirteen hundred years before Europe recognized that these rights even existed. The division of inheritance is a vast subject with an enormous amount of details (4:7,11,12,176).The general rule is that the female share is half the male's except the cases in which the mother receives equal share to that of the father. This general rule if taken in isolation from other legislations concerning men and women may seem unfair. In order to understand the rationale behind this rule, one must take into account the fact that the financial obligations of men in Islam far exceed those of women .A bridegroom must provide his bride with a marriage gift. This gift becomes her exclusive property and remains so even if she is later divorced. The bride is under no obligation to present any gifts to her groom. 
Moreover, the Muslim husband is charged with the maintenance of his wife and children. The wife, on the other hand, is not obliged to help him in this regard. Her property and earnings are for her use alone except what she may voluntarily offer her husband.
Besides, one has to realize that Islam vehemently advocates family life. It strongly encourages youth to get married, discourages divorce, and does not regard celibacy as a virtue. Therefore, in a truly Islamic society, family life is the norm and single life is the rare exception. That is, almost all marriage-aged women and men are married in an Islamic society. In light of these facts, one would appreciate that Muslim men, in general, have greater financial burdens than Muslim women and thus inheritance rules are meant to offset this imbalance so that the society lives free of all gender or class wars. After a simple comparison between the financial rights and duties of Muslim women, one British Muslim woman has concluded that Islam has treated women not only fairly but generously.


Professor Almaric Rumsey (1825–1899) from King's College, University of London, wrote in one of his many legal books, "[the Muslim law of inheritance] comprises beyond question the most refined and elaborate system of rules for the devolution of property that is known to the civilized world."


Quote from: Antiaparteid
 link=topic=249.msg589#msg589 date=1347860129
being half mentally adept

No where in the Qur'an or sunna describing women as less intelligent than men ...



having to share a husband


In the Quran ,there is no textual obligation on man or woman to marry ....
but if you won't marry how would a man or a woman satisfies their nature?  the desire, especially for women to have children? and more important of all that ,to dwell in tranquillity ,the feeling of someone beside you whom you share your happiness and pain ?



If allah could bless marium with a son immaculately

That is the tone of those who consider the sexual intercourse to be base or bad,even if legal !!!
Having Jesus immaculately,was not a message to Mariam that God blessed her (during delivery she wished that she had died before this! would that she had been a thing forgotten and out of sight! [19:23]" ,but a message to the Jews that the miracles with that messenger ,will be in action, from the time of his very beginning,till the end of his mission "raised up to heaven"......


 He could if he wanted give you a child without using a man's sperm; give you food in abundance without your having ever worked a day in your life or having been someone's wife.

Antiaparteid , from the way to talk,I began to suggest that you are most probably a woman , and you suffer from psychological problem ....
don't be offended ,I'm very honest with you ,I had some readings in psychology ,and your constant complaining ,unexpected and unfocused lines , show that you are in trouble and you suffered from bad experience with the society , and you feel that you less loved by the people ,you deserve to be treated better etc.....
most of those people who suffer from that,are those sensitive of criticism even if positive, often critical making harsh unexpected comments forcing the people to break away with them..

Antiaparteid , the concept of having a life without work ,is not a far-fetched one, but it comes after the test we are having in that earthly short life.... paradise is waiting those who deserve.

also you think it would have been better if women could have had babes without men's sperm or having been someone's wife !!!! 

hey Antiaparteid , man means more for woman that just a penis,sperm and some money he may spend..... all world's treasures won't compensate a woman for the lack of a man she loves,and vice verse... most women will agree with me...

Holy Quran 30:21 And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.


Antiaparteid dwelling in tranquillity , be loved ,is what you lack ..   criticizing the people and the religions is not your cure ...

how many good people you know ,that deserve your praise ? why don't you pick your phone calling them ? plz do it now....




Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Antiaparteid on September 17, 2012, 01:45:03 pm
"Stupid", you may call me. Or, uneducated, or something. But, don't bloody say I have psychological problems. That's getting personal. And, here I was, thinking that, this forum was against personal attacks! Hmm? Makes one wonder.

This thread isn't about being against men. It's about getting people to think...

And yes, men aren't just sperm and penis. Men are like you. Do you realise what you've done to me? The way you've responded to my post is typical of muslim men. Every time a woman says something that suggests free thinking, a muslim man will react as you have been reacting to many of my posts.

There is a trend among the muslim males. The trend is to obscure the qur'an and hadith to make women feel inadequate and helpless without men. Is islam about this kind of indoctrination?

I would've like women to respond to my post--not some sexist muslim male.

FYI, even the quran says that marium had a baby by the word of Allah. Unless the "Glorious Qur'an" says otherwise. Lol! How many types of qur'an are there? Let's see: the noble qur'an, the holy qur'an, the glorious qur'an,... What's next?

And by the way, I think I'll live harmoniously, married to an atheist. At least he'd respect my human and civil rights. And we'd make our own rules. I'd rather die than be with a man who quotes from some qur'an how he should undermine me.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Final Overture on September 17, 2012, 02:58:05 pm
Wow, calling your brother in faith just sperm and penis.. Aren't you ashamed of your words?
Quote
I'd rather die than be with a man who quotes from some qur'an how he should undermine me.
Wow, really?

Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah 's Apostle said, "Treat women nicely, for a women is created from a rib, and the most curved portion of the rib is its upper portion, so, if you should try to straighten it, it will break, but if you leave it as it is, it will remain crooked. So treat women nicely."
Bukhari USC-MSA web (English) reference    : Vol. 4, Book 55, Hadith 548


There is no path between belief and unbelief.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Abd-Al-Rahman on September 17, 2012, 03:05:02 pm
Quote
"Stupid", you may call me.


Glad you spared the trouble for anyone to have to do it. I seriously mean this one.

Quote
Or, uneducated, or something. But, don't bloody say I have psychological problems. That's getting personal. And, here I was, thinking that, this forum was against personal attacks! Hmm? Makes one wonder.

This thread isn't about being against men. It's about getting people to think...

And yes, men aren't just sperm and penis. Men are like you. Do you realise what you've done to me? The way you've responded to my post is typical of muslim men. Every time a woman says something that suggests free thinking, a muslim man will react as you have been reacting to many of my posts.

There is a trend among the muslim males. The trend is to obscure the qur'an and hadith to make women feel inadequate and helpless without men. Is islam about this kind of indoctrination?

I would've like women to respond to my post--not some sexist muslim male.

Also really glad that you’re one of the very few to stand up for the severely, no I mean extremely, and very obviously, repressed and abused rights of Muslim women, as well as women in general, all over the world. That’s super.

Quote
FYI, even the quran says that marium had a baby by the word of Allah. Unless the "Glorious Qur'an" says otherwise.

That’s correct, yes. And brother Egyptian never denied that fact either, you’re obviously just hallucinating things.

Quote
Lol! How many types of qur'an are there? Let's see: the noble qur'an, the holy qur'an, the glorious qur'an,... What's next?

This simply just has got to be an intentional joke ;D If not, either way, thanks for the laugh, now that’s one of the very few good ones that you can find out there ;D

What’s next you ask? That’s your choice really, but you may also try saying something like “Lol! How many gods do Muslims worship? Let’s see: [here you would start listing out 1-99 gods, if you catch my drift]''.

Quote
And by the way, I think I'll live harmoniously, married to an atheist. At least he'd respect my human and civil rights. And we'd make our own rules. I'd rather die than be with a man who quotes from some qur'an how he should undermine me.

It’s nice of you to have taken the time to make this specification.

There isn’t much left for me to say now, other than good luck.

You may need it.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: QuranSearchCom on September 17, 2012, 04:05:11 pm
Quote
Every muslim should find out for him/herself what islam really mean; and what it means to be muslim.

Every muslim women must ask, herself and allah, if being muslim means getting half a man's share;

The inheritance of the woman is actually more than fair for her, and it was designed by Allah Almighty to give her protection against the harsh and unforgiving world back then.  The woman's inheritance and dowry for marriage are her money, and she can choose to not share a single dollar with anyone if she chooses.  It is the husband's 100% responsibility to provide for her.  In fact, in Islam, the man is responsible for:

1-  His parents.
2-  His wife.
3-  His children until they become grown ups.
4-  His widowed sisters.
5-  His divorced sisters after their maintanence from their former husbands ends.


Him being obligated to spend on any and all of the mentioned people, above, justifies him getting double the woman in inheritance.  In fact, any of the people mentioned above could take him to court and have the court force him to pay.

Quote
being rendered being half mentally adept; having to share a husband; etc.

When Allah Almighty put the Law of four men to be witnesses against any woman charged with lewdness, and for two women being equivalent to one man in financial contracts, Allah Almighty wanted to ensure:

1-  The full and uncompromised integrity of the situation.
2-  The highest standards and most justice.

 
Men back then, and even today throughout the third-world countries, are far more intelligence and experience when dealing with financial transactions, and tradings between goods and money, and money with money, and goods with goods than women.  Women are more experienced in raising children, cooking, milking, shaving the wool and making pillows and blankets and sweaters (clothes) with them, and cleaning.  The Financial world is something they're not experienced in, and mathematics tend to be very confusing for all humans.  You need lots of experience to deal with mathematics and financial transactions and dealings.  Hence, one woman, in general, wasn't enough back then, and even today in many of the under-developed countries, where women don't go to schools and spend most of their adult lives in marriages and raising children.  This is true in both Muslim and non-Muslim countries.  This is why Allah Almighty Said "to remind or correct (tuthakkir) one of them the other".

Let us look at the Noble Verse in full context and in great details:

Noble Verse 2:282  "O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing; let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as God Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord God, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of God, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear God; For it is Good that teaches you. And God is well acquainted with all things. If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, let the trustee (faithfully) discharge his trust, and let him Fear his Lord conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it, - his heart is tainted with sin. And God knoweth all that ye do."

(http://www.answering-christianity.com/two_women.htm)

The actualy brain itself is not the point here.  This is what the ridiculous Islamophobes claim with their lies.  Otherwise, are we to believe that THREE MEN AREN'T INTELLIGENT ENOUGH TO TESTIFY AGAINST A PROSTITUTE?  Why must we have four men?  It's the standards and the integrity and the assurance of justice and fair dealing that matters here.  It's not about the intelligence of the individual.

Quote
If allah could bless marium with a son immaculately, how much more can he bless you as a woman? With allah, anything is possible. We, as women don't have to submit to men. Only submit to allah. He could if he wanted give you a child without using a man's sperm; give you food in abundance without your having ever worked a day in your life or having been someone's wife. Amin.

I am not really sure what agenda or point or perspective you're trying to push here.  It is not an insult for the woman to be a mother and a wife.  It is not an insult for the woman to breast feed her child for two mandatory years.  It is not an insult for the woman to be married to a man and get pregnant from him and raise a healthy and righteous society.  After all, IT WAS MY MOTHER, NOT MY FATHER, WHO RAISED ME!  SHE WAS THE ONE WHO ALSO HELPED ME WITH ALL OF MY HOMEWORKS.  She was the one who also made sure that I don't stay too late playing outside, and don't stray too far when playing with the other kids.  My father was busy working.  I see that as an honor for my mother, not an insult.  Only the destructive faminists of today, who are mostly divorced and lesbian losers, push such evil ideologies and agendas, which destroy marriages, and make women of today even far stupider than what they already are from all of the garbage that is fed to them.

Quote
Muslims like to ask christians questions, to question christianity. But, muslims should question muslims about islam. Question the dictatorship. Question the discrimination. Question the bloodshed. Question the poverty. Question the characters of the muslim scholars.

All questions are welcomed.  The more you ask, the more we'll prove to you that Islam is the ONE AND ONLY SOLUTION for all of mankind and this lost humanity, insha'Allah (if Allah Almighty is Willing).

Take care,
Osama Abdallah
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Antiaparteid on September 18, 2012, 12:20:22 am
Life is very different today. If women aren't "less adept" how can they become "stupider than they already are"? You see how muslim men think about women?

Muslim men like yourselves make women think that they cannot survive without men. I was just giving the message that Allah can bless a woman from his bounty. Allah can also answer our prayers.

There are plenty of business women today. Even if you cannot do math, you could hire someone to do the math. Muslim women should make something of their lives. So why are muslim men offended by the suggestion that women should have independence?

What I said about Marium wasn't to get women to ask Allah to give them children in a similar way. It was just an example of how Allah can make the impossible happen. I'm sure there are women who think that with the gender discrimination it is impossible to gain financial independence. So, I was just saying that "Allah blesses women". Is it wrong for me to believe that Allah should bless women? Or does Allah only bless men, and as a woman you should pray for a blessed man to provide for you? Connot Allah bless a woman directly? I wouldn't be surprised to read a reply stating how men are more blessed than women in islam.

The qur'an is so full of messages in favour of men. I was just highlighting that there is a message of hope for women in that very same qur'an. I was highlighting that men are not the anchors of women. Allah can provide for us, women. If we pray to him, He will grant us many blessings.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Antiaparteid on September 18, 2012, 01:47:16 am
This quote from the Holy Quran from sura 2:37

<quote> Every time that he [Zakariya] entered [Mary's] chamber to see her, he found her supplied with sustenance. He said: "O Mary! Whence (comes) this to you?" she said: "From Allah, for Allah provides sustenance to whom he pleases without measure." <quote/>

demonstrates how Allah can bless anyone, even women.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Final Overture on September 18, 2012, 07:30:39 am
This quote from the Holy Quran from sura 2:37

<quote> Every time that he [Zakariya] entered [Mary's] chamber to see her, he found her supplied with sustenance. He said: "O Mary! Whence (comes) this to you?" she said: "From Allah, for Allah provides sustenance to whom he pleases without measure." <quote/>

demonstrates how Allah can bless anyone, even women.

Who said that He doesn't bless them?
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Antiaparteid on September 18, 2012, 08:17:38 am
Quote
Who said that He doesn't bless them? [quote/]

Who has said that He does them? It's not only about what is preached to muslim women that bothers me; It's also what isn't preached. I don't hear enough messages of hope spoken to muslim women. I was just saying what muslims don't say, and what muslims must hear--and, I'll keep doing so.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Final Overture on September 18, 2012, 08:38:08 am
Quote
Who has said that He does them?
Allah Himself.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Antiaparteid on September 18, 2012, 09:25:19 am
Quote
Who said that He doesn't bless them? [quote/]

Who has said that He does them? It's not only about what is preached to muslim women that bothers me; It's also what isn't preached. I don't hear enough messages of hope spoken to muslim women. I was just saying what muslims don't say, and what muslims must hear--and, I'll keep doing so.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: mokko on September 19, 2012, 06:40:47 am
And by the way, I think I'll live harmoniously, married to an atheist. At least he'd respect my human and civil rights. And we'd make our own rules. I'd rather die than be with a man who quotes from some qur'an how he should undermine me.

That depends, if your man is darwinist, and has looked into evolutionary psychology, he could well insist on the "complementarity" of men and women, instead of their "equality". Do not equate rationality with feminism.

I advise you to make your own investigations about psychology of men and women. There are interesting scientific studies on the topic.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Egyptian on September 19, 2012, 11:32:49 am
And by the way, I think I'll live harmoniously, married to an atheist. At least he'd respect my human and civil rights. And we'd make our own rules. I'd rather die than be with a man who quotes from some qur'an how he should undermine me.

That depends, if your man is darwinist, and has looked into evolutionary psychology, he could well insist on the "complementarity" of men and women, instead of their "equality". Do not equate rationality with feminism.

I advise you to make your own investigations about psychology of men and women. There are interesting scientific studies on the topic.

good point mokko .... thank you.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Antiaparteid on September 20, 2012, 12:58:46 am
Is it not possible for two equals to complement each other? Are 5 and 5 not both the complements of ten? Are not two right angles complementary?
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: mokko on September 20, 2012, 02:46:09 am
yes you are right.

But my opinion about this is that you should not focus so much on Muslim men, if you do not like them. Try to focus on better people. It is always hard to break from an abusive relationship, but you can find the courage to do so. There are many people outside who will enjoy being in your company and reward it better.

But the sad fact is that many women (Muslim or not) prefer to stay with "bad guys", complaining about them all the time, and ignore "nice guys" who will respect her, etc..Nice guys finish last.

So my opinion about these women is that they must either leave their man or shut up.

Can you travel? If you are free to go to Sweden, or a more feminist-oriented country, you should do so.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Antiaparteid on September 20, 2012, 05:58:08 am
I didn't start this thread to discuss bad relationships. I was just pointing out that allah blesses women. Is that too hard to swallow?

And, no! Women should never shut up. Freedom is in speech. Feminism isn't such a bad thing. Who will fight for us if we don't? Muslim women are far too subservient and submissive. When will muslim women have their "arab spring"? The first step is knowing that you are not alone and allah will provide for, and protect you (woman).

A loveless marriage is not the answer to poverty. Women need education and opportunity. What bad will happen to a man if he just gives a woman a little bit of his flame to ignite her fire? Is it too much to ask muslims to encourage women to reach for the sky? How can you expect a woman to have faith in going to jennat when she cannot even dream of getting a little bit of happiness on earth? Men should teach women to fish--women who already know how, should teach women to fish.

Women have, and can do great things. Women must stop listening to people who say "you can't, you're a woman".
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Egyptian on September 20, 2012, 11:57:42 am

Feminism isn't such a bad thing.

right, but it is not typical of masculinism.. ignoring the differences will get you into trouble, whatever belief you may stick to,whether Islam,Christianity etc.....


Muslim women are far too subservient and submissive..

submissive to God or to man?

that is exactly the game , non Muslim haters of Islam play.....   when the Muslim woman holds the Islamic teaching eg: wearing Hijab  etc .......   they weep for her for being obliged to do that !!!   



How can you expect a woman to have faith in going to jennat when she cannot even dream of getting a little bit of happiness on earth? Men should teach women to fish--women who already know how, should teach women to fish..

That is a word from a person who has no idea of what she is talking about ..... Muslim women not miserable as you claim,  eg: in Egypt she has the same chance of education the man has , she works and arrives high positions , in the building I'm living in ,there is 2 female doctors... a female administrator of engineering office , a  female lawyer ... one school I used to work in ,had more female teachers than males ,and the headmaster is a woman ....  we have female ministers as well ,one of them "minister of scientific research and technology"........ If there was oppression and unemployment ,then It was on all the poor population whether men or women...

the claim of womens' oppression is as stupid as the stupid claim of oppressing the christian minorities who had the same opportunities the Muslims had in freedom of religion, education,work ,holding high positions including ministers....  , they are from 5% to 10% or less percent of the population ,yet they have more than 60% of the country wealth ....  some of them are still weeping for the christian west for oppression...  nasty and hateful folk ,indeed.


Holy Quran  2:120 Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.



Women have, and can do great things. Women must stop listening to people who say "you can't, you're a woman".

Agreed...
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: mokko on September 20, 2012, 03:05:01 pm
I essentially agree with you that women can do great things if they find more self-confidence.

However, it can be counter-productive to tie this agenda to other things. Just push for your agenda, do not the agenda of others (especially religious agendas).

Your way to communicate with men can certainly be improved, but you have a lot of energy. good luck.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Antiaparteid on September 20, 2012, 11:24:12 pm
Muslim women are too submissive to men--not submissive enough to allah. You know that a woman must first get her husband's permission to pray at home?

Muslim men are hard-wired in their thinking. They have been brought up to believe that they are superior to women. The man is always right. The man is the protector.

"The man will provide for you. Get a husband."

 "Don't go into the corporate world--it's the West trying to corrupt us. The woman's place is in the kitchen."

 "Muslim homes are so inhygienic and rat-infested these days because the wives are out working."

 "If your husband refuses to work, don't get a job, just stand in a queue to receive food parcels."

 "We can't help you find a job, but we'll nikka you up with a muslim foreigner."
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Daughter of Islam on September 21, 2012, 05:11:18 am
Hello All,

Islam is the ultimate freedom for women. Islam is the only religion that preserved and fought for the dignity of women. And by I slam I mean the religion of all prophets from Adam to Mohammad and the return of Jesus, peace and blessings of God be upon them all.

“He (The Lord) has legislated for you (All mankind) of religion which He commended upon Noah and that which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and that which We commended upon Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion and do not be divided in it. Greatly hard for those who associate others with God is that which you call them to. Allah chooses for Himself whom He wills and guides to Himself whoever turns to Him (in repentance and in obedience)."                         

  [Quran:The Consultation 42:13]

To explain this I will invade my personal life to make it closer to your minds:

Why More than one wife:

After 2 years of my mother being sick and bed bound my father , encouraged by my mother, got married again. His new wife was and still is like a sister to all of us, helping us in the house, taking care of my mother when there is an opportunity for her, giving us advice. She was the one who gave me genuine advice before I got married, since my mother’s speech and comprehension were affected as well. I am happy that my father has a second wife who we are all proud of and not a prostitute.

Why I would like my husband to get married with another lady?

For so many reasons but primarily because I have a disabled son, and I don’t have the patience nor the tolerance to raise other kids, and I want more brothers and sisters for my son so that after I am and his father are gone, he will find support from real family. Western Research Finding: the one who take cares of you when you get old, is not your friend, not your neighbor, not your cousin, it’s your brother.

Other benefits:

•I will have more time to take care of myself since the cooking and other chores will decrease.
•If ,God forbid, I got sick seriously, she can fill the gap while my husband has his work to be occupied with.
•If, God forbid, I died, she will be the best one to take care of my kids because she already knows them. My real sisters from birth are really great but at the end of the day every one of them has her own family to take care of.

Why I would not suggest having another wife for my husband? Simply because we can’t afford it right now. And it is illegal in a western country to do that while they allow and encourage their daughters and sisters to advertise for prostitution in the news papers.

Men have more inheritance:
Well , if God forbid,  my husband died, it will be the responsibility of the relative men of the family to take care of me and my children financially not the women even if I chose to work.

Head covers and loose clothes:

It is the ultimate freedom. Showing our bodies for strange men to enjoy or critic is the oppression. Islam gives us the highest respect.

Work:
I have been working for more than 15 years and the day I stopped is the day where I found freedom, no need to explain, you should know what I mean. Well nowadays I find some men who can’t wait to retire or quit their jobs to enjoy life and do what they really love to do.

These are just very few things about women and Islam. Please I am not used to hearing offensive language and for my dear Christian readers I remind you of a verse in your Holy Bible. 

Mathew 5:22 " But I say to you that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."[The Holy Bible, Mathew 5: 22]

Thank you
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Antiaparteid on September 21, 2012, 06:38:31 am
Oh, so second wives are actually glorified maids? Wonderful. I know, people can't afford maids these days. And if your husband got disabled, or couldn't cope working, or couldn't have more kids, would you consider a second husband to make things easier for him? I'm sure, you'd really be turned on, hearing the moans  and screams of pleasure from the woman being throbbed and licked and made love to by your husband, in the other room, trying to make brothers and sisters for your son. How nice! You'd be living in jenna already. Or are you going to tell your husband to find an unexpressive, dull wife who just looks at the ceiling till it's over, for your sake? Would you and your co-wife take turns in washing each other's dirty sheets?

If i hurt you, daughter of islam, by my comment, you're welcome, it was my pleasure. :)
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Final Overture on September 21, 2012, 07:01:04 am
If i hurt you, daughter of islam, by my comment, you're welcome, it was my pleasure. :)

I remember you saying: "Im Muslim". Seriously, you are just a hypocrite, why even bother spending wasting your time here?
Abu Shuraih Al-'Adawf said:
"My eyes saw the Messenger of Allah, and my ears heard him speaking when he was speaking and he said: ...And whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day, then let him say what is good or keep silent." (Sahih) Jami` at-Tirmidhi Vol. 4, Book 1, Hadith 1967


Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 56, Number 759:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr:

The Prophet never used bad language neither a "Fahish nor a Mutafahish. He used to say "The best amongst you are those who have the best manners and character."



Narrated Abu Dhar:
That he heard the Prophet saying, "If somebody accuses another of Fusuq (by calling him 'Fasiq' i.e. a wicked person) or accuses him of Kufr, such an accusation will revert to him (i.e. the accuser) if his companion (the accused) is innocent." (Bukhari Vol. 8, Book 73, Hadith 71)

Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: m2ariman on September 21, 2012, 12:37:22 pm
"You know that a woman must first get her husband's permission to pray at home?"
Really? Even if she does need so, what is the problem with that? Asking her husband for permission is showing the husband that the wife is loyal, true and honest to him. It makes the husband feel appreciated, hence, the family will be more bonded.

"Muslim men are hard-wired in their thinking. They have been brought up to believe that they are superior to women. The man is always right. The man is the protector."
How about you? Hard-wired to think that the muslimah are oppressed?
Who says that man are always right?
Man ARE the protector of women. It is their job.
You think you women can defend for yourselves?
Walk in the street alone at night. Test it. Many women got raped for doing that. Why don't you try it?


"The man will provide for you. Get a husband."
What is wrong with that? Men are suppose to provide for their women.

 "Don't go into the corporate world--it's the West trying to corrupt us. The woman's place is in the kitchen."
I disagree. Heard of Nabi Muhammad's s.a.w wife, Siti Khadijah(ra)?

 "Muslim homes are so inhygienic and rat-infested these days because the wives are out working."
These is somewhat true but the blame is on the whole family. Not just the wives.

 "If your husband refuses to work, don't get a job, just stand in a queue to receive food parcels."
I've never heard of this anywhere from my ustadz, nor the Qur'an which I have completed reading, nor the hadith.

 "We can't help you find a job, but we'll nikka you up with a muslim foreigner."
Why should a women even get her job when she can enjoy her time with her kids/family, her neighbours, etc?

-----

You know, Islam was never a religion of debate.

It simply is about truth.

Once you know truth, you are saved. Simple as that. But you wanted to be rebellious.

"Truth is simple. Mankind makes it complicated"~Unknown Author

To debate with someone whom only have hatred in her heart, someone who is dishonest, is really a waste of time. Such immature acts. Do you know where you are going to end up? The hellfire. My advise for you is to repent. Save yourself. Don't be a trial to the believers. Read Surah Al-Buruj verse 10.

Nevermind that. I will put it here:

"Those who persecute (or draw into temptation) the Believers, men and women and do not turn in repentance, will have the Penalty of Hell: they will have the Penalty of the Burning Fire."

Even if you are a christian/catholic, you are not. You are probably an atheist/agnost. If you are a christian/catholic, then where is your loving thy enemy? What happened to the teachings of Jesus?

Really, once again, save yourself from the Hellfire if you even love yourself at the very least.

What Allah have chosen for you, you can't argue.

What is really your problem with Islam?
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Daughter of Islam on September 21, 2012, 12:53:55 pm

Oh, so second wives are actually glorified maids?

No, of course not. No body said that. My step mother is always visiting as a guest and a close family member , she has her own house, a different neighbourhood. she never helped us with the care of our mother, it's not her duty, we have a maid for the house and my sister and brother take care of her afairs.

As for my hypothetical second wife ,I won't even allow her to use my kitchen, she would have her own house and her own neighbours. It's just like mutual benefit. A lady who needs a house and a husband and would like to have kids.

You choose to be blind, look around you. Are western women living an easy life?
or Shall I mention the wonderful verses in the bible that clearly degrades women? Just googlize "The dark side of the bible and women" and you will find wonders. Would God say such a thing against women? that is another proof that this bible has been changed according to your men's agenda at those times.

Regards,
 
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Daughter of Islam on September 22, 2012, 07:17:02 am


“And whoever turns away from My remembrance - indeed, he will have a depressed life, and We will gather him on the Day of Resurrection blind. He will say: O my Lord! Why have you raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)? He will say: Thus did Our signs come to you, and you forgot them; and thus will you this Day be forgotten.”     

[The Holy Quran: Ta-Ha 20:124-126]
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Antiaparteid on September 22, 2012, 12:57:33 pm
Muslims are depraved. Christians, jews, muslims clearly pray to different gods--imaginary. The qur'an is nothing but propaganda. I'm no longer muslim, thanx to you muslims. I hate islam.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Egyptian on September 22, 2012, 01:27:00 pm
Muslims are depraved. Christians, jews, muslims clearly pray to different gods--imaginary. The qur'an is nothing but propaganda. I'm no longer muslim, thanx to you muslims. I hate islam.



Thank you ,and we hate you too ,you nothing more than a psychopathic pervert ,who addicted to offense and vulgar life ,and a mean hypocrite....destined (if not repent)  to have the worst punishment ever, being in the lowest depth of hellfire   

Holy Quran 4:154 Surely the hypocrites will be in the lowest depth of hellfire; and you will not find any helper for them.

most of the following traits of hypocrisy fits perfectly on you:

* Traits: Deception and Mendacity

“They (think to) deceive Allâh and those who believe, while they only deceive themselves, and perceive (it) not!” al-Baqarah 2:9


* Traits: Mocking the believers

“And when they meet those who believe, they say: “We believe,” but when they are alone with their Shayâtin (devils – polytheists, hypocrites, etc.), they say: “Truly, we are with you; verily, we were but mocking.” Al-Baqarah 2:14


* Traits: Causing Corruption and Mischief upon the earth

“And when it is said to them: “Make not mischief on the earth,” they say: ‘We are only peacemakers.’ Verily! They are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive not.” Al-Baqarah 2:11,12

* Trait: Inspiring one another with evil words

“And so We have appointed for every Prophet enemies – Shayâtin (devils) among mankind and jinns, inspiring one another with adorned speech as a delusion (or by way of deception). If your Lord had so willed, they would not have done it, so leave them alone with their fabrications.” Al-An‘âm 6:112



* Traits: They lay in wait to chastise and defame the believers

“Those (hyprocrites) who wait and watch about you; if you gain a victory from Allâh, they say: “Were we not with you,” but if the disbelievers gain a success, they say (to them): “Did we not gain mastery over you and did we not protect you from the believers?” Allâh will judge between you (all) on the Day of Resurrection. And never will Allâh grant to the disbelievers a way (to triumph) over the believers.” An-Nisâ 4:141

* Trait: Rejection of the Hukm (rulings) of Allah and His Prophet.

“And when it is said to them: “Come to what Allâh has sent down and to the Messenger (Muhammad SAW),” you (Muhammad SAW) see the hypocrites turn away from you (Muhammad SAW) with aversion.” An-Nisâ 4:61

* Traits: Seeking to rationalize and explain their sinful deeds when they are confronted with the evilness of their actions. They seek to conceal their evil intentions by swearing that their sinful deeds were unintentional.



“How then, when a catastrophe befalls them because of what their hands have sent forth, they come to you swearing by Allâh, “We meant no more than goodwill and conciliation!” an-Nisâ 4:62


“They have made their oaths a screen (for their evil actions). Thus they hinder (men) from the Path of Allâh, so they shall have a humiliating torment.” Al-Mujadilah 58:16

* Traits: Focusing on the visible ornaments and beautifications. They are eloquent speakers who do not act upon their many words. They weave mirages of sensibility and grandeur.

“And when you look at them, their bodies please you; and when they speak, you listen to their words. They are as blocks of wood propped up. They think that every cry is against them. They are the enemies, so beware of them. May Allâh curse them! How are they denying (or deviating from) the Right Path.” Al-Munafiqûn 63:4

* Trait: They rejoice at the misfortune and sadness of the believers.

“If good befalls you (O Muhammad SAW), it grieves them, but if a calamity overtakes you, they say: “We took our precaution beforehand,” and they turn away rejoicing.” At-Taubah 9:50

* Trait: Seeking to please humanity at the expense of displeasing Allah.

“They (the hypocrites) swear to you (Muslims) that you may be pleased with them, but if you are pleased with them, certainly Allâh is not pleased with the people who are Al-Fâsiqûn (rebellious, disobedient to Allâh).” At-Taubah 9:96


 Antiaparteid , I thought you had felt ashamed of yourself after I exposed your hypocrisy from the beginning , and quit from the thread ,but it seems you don't know the meaning of the word "self respect" ...none of us will ever show an atom of respect for the hypocrites from your kind... 

Brother Osama ,the open-minded man , was very tolerant with you ,but those of your kind never appreciate the tolerance ,thinking that tolerance means weakness ....  but every tolerance has a limit .. It is time for you Atiparteid , to be ashamed of yourself and get lost ... before Brother Osama makes the well deserved ban on you.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Final Overture on September 22, 2012, 02:11:16 pm
Muslims are depraved. Christians, jews, muslims clearly pray to different gods--imaginary. The qur'an is nothing but propaganda. I'm no longer muslim, thanx to you muslims. I hate islam.
You never were a Muslim. Sorry.
Title: Allah does not bless women
Post by: Antiaparteid on September 23, 2012, 03:14:27 am
Why do women do salat behind men? It's simple. Men pray to allah; women pray to men. That is why i cannot call myself muslim, anymore.

A woman doesn't have to ask her husband for permission to cook or clean for him; but she has to ask his permission to pray. Cooking and cleaning is the woman's duty; praying to his allah is a privilage. That is why I am no longer muslim.

The man submits to allah; while the woman submits to the man. The man obeys allah; while the woman obeys the man. The man is blessed by allah; while the woman is blessed by the man. That is why i am not a muslim.

I'd need a sex-change to be truly muslim. That is why i hate islam.

I am a hypocrit because i do not submit to men. I am a hypocrit because i believed that allah could possibly bless women. I am a hypocrit because i thought there was mercy and hope for women. I am a hypocrit because i thought that women could be independent. I am a woman because i do not believe in adam and eve plus aisha plus this woman and that woman. I am a hypocrit because i don't always agree with men. I am a hypocrit because i am not a bible basher. I am a hypocrit because i love my neighbors as i love myself. I am a hypocrit because i don't search for the bad in other religions. I am a hypocrit because i believe i am strong. I am a hypocrit because i have morals. I am a hypocrit because i believe men and women are equal. I am a hypocrit because i don't believe that men are always right. I am a hypocrit because i think about the well-being of children.

The God, Almighty in whom I believe is neither male nor female. My God loves every one of his creations. My God is there for anyone who reaches out to him. My God blesses everyone, male and female, black and white, big and small, young and old, rich and poor, healthy and sickly, big and small, learned and unlettered, those with big faith and those with only little faith. My God is the same to everyone........................ But, allah is very different. Allah only loves men. Allah hates women; and only tolerates them with the man's permission. Allah is a puppet who's master is the man. Allah is the man's ego. Men worship their egos aka allah. The christians worship the flesh; while the muslims (males) worship the male ego. The muslim women also worship the flesh--their muslim males.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: mokko on September 23, 2012, 05:40:17 am
Antiaparteid, I feel sad about this thread, because your opponents fell in the trap of sending threats and anathems, instead of focusing on arguments. People should educate themselves to avoid this verbal violence.

You will certainly agree that the situation of women (and slaves, also) improved during the 23 years of Muhammad's mission.
On the other hand, you can agree that building a perfect society in 23 years is humanly impossible.

For example, if you forbid wife-beating overnight, you get mess at homes. An explosion of anarchy. Freedom and responsibility needs education and time. It takes time and practice for people to learn the communication skills necessary to avoid violence (verbal or physical).

When judging Islam, you should look at the whole process, not the endpoint 23 years later.

So I ask you: where is the big deal about Islam? You need a more positive attitude towards the "Islam/women" issue. Maybe you need to change your country, instead of changing your religion. It will have more impact on your life.

For example, in some big cities in some countries (not Western), women walk alone in the night, almost naked, and nobody annoys them. However, streets are not safe for everyone, they remain very dangerous for men: crazy men sometimes attack other men, but never women.(the few Muslim men in these cities do not dare to annoy women, they are too scared for their own safety, and it is a good thing. Anyway, why Muslim men are so bad ? Is it religion, or just frustration?).

However, women in those countries face other issues, that Muslim women do not face: everything has a price, and nothing is perfect. So instead of focusing on theories (religious or otherwise), focus on practice. It was also the Prophet's attitude, and it was wise.

You rejected some parts of what is commonly called "Islam", so what? Is it the end of your journey towards understanding men-women relationships? Maybe you need an in-depth empirical and cross-cultural perspective, instead of focusing your mind on a short experience of 23 years. Would you read be interested by references on the topic?
Title: Re: Allah does not bless women
Post by: Final Overture on September 23, 2012, 06:31:42 am
Why do women do salat behind men? It's simple. Men pray to allah; women pray to men. That is why i cannot call myself muslim, anymore.
Men and Women pray to Allah only, you don't really have to show your ignorance.

Quote
The man submits to allah; while the woman submits to the man. The man obeys allah; while the woman obeys the man. The man is blessed by allah; while the woman is blessed by the man. That is why i am not a muslim.

So what if woman obeys the man? Men also have to obey the Prophet, does that mean that they pray to Prophet?

Quote
I am a hypocrit because i do not submit to men. I am a hypocrit because i believed that allah could possibly bless women. I am a hypocrit because i thought there was mercy and hope for women. I am a hypocrit because i thought that women could be independent. I am a woman because i do not believe in adam and eve plus aisha plus this woman and that woman. I am a hypocrit because i don't always agree with men. I am a hypocrit because i am not a bible basher. I am a hypocrit because i love my neighbors as i love myself. I am a hypocrit because i don't search for the bad in other religions. I am a hypocrit because i believe i am strong. I am a hypocrit because i have morals. I am a hypocrit because i believe men and women are equal. I am a hypocrit because i don't believe that men are always right. I am a hypocrit because i think about the well-being of children.

You are a hypocrite, because you show your hypocrisy. That's not very hard to see
Quote
I am a hypocrit because i believe men and women are equal.
Qur'an says the same. Women and men are equal but not similar. I guess, you know the difference.

Quote
The God, Almighty in whom I believe is neither male nor female. My God loves every one of his creations. My God is there for anyone who reaches out to him. My God blesses everyone, male and female, black and white, big and small, young and old, rich and poor, healthy and sickly, big and small, learned and unlettered, those with big faith and those with only little faith. My God is the same to everyone

Hmmm, not.Psalms 5:4 For you are not a God who is pleased with wickedness;
    with you, evil people are not welcome.
5 The arrogant cannot stand
    in your presence.
You hate all who do wrong;
6     you destroy those who tell lies.

Quote
But, allah is very different. Allah only loves men. Allah hates women; and only tolerates them with the man's permission. Allah is a puppet who's master is the man. Allah is the man's ego. Men worship their egos aka allah. The christians worship the flesh; while the muslims (males) worship the male ego. The muslim women also worship the flesh--their muslim males.

What nonsense, have you just said?! Maybe this verse may help you a bit.
"Say, "Indeed, those who invent falsehood about Allah will not succeed."" Qur'an 10:69
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Egyptian on September 23, 2012, 07:39:26 am
Greetings

Antiaparteid, I feel sad about this thread, because your opponents fell in the trap of sending threats and anathems

May be her language "see her expressions with daughter of Islam" could be tolerated in non-religious forum , but we can't simply ,allow such slutty language in Muslim's forum....


the rest of your post ,mokko,is as usual balanced ....  and hope you one day initiate a thread ,attracts me to participate....

wish all the non-Muslims learn your style of how to properly convey their point of view ,without hiding themselves behind a Muslim identity ,nor the licking language of Antiaparteid !...

all the best
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Antiaparteid on September 23, 2012, 08:53:22 am
Greetings

Antiaparteid, I feel sad about this thread, because your opponents fell in the trap of sending threats and anathems

May be her language "see her expressions with daughter of Islam" could be tolerated in non-religious forum , but we can't simply ,allow such slutty language in Muslim's forum....


the rest of your post ,mokko,is as usual balanced ....  and hope you one day initiate a thread ,attracts me to participate....

wish all the non-Muslims learn your style of how to properly convey their point of view ,without hiding themselves behind a Muslim identity ,nor the licking language of Antiaparteid !...

all the best
what slutty language? I'm not the one fantasying second wives for my husband. I'm not the one who want my husband to double dip me and another woman. I'm not a [censored]. I respect my body. My body is not up for negotiation. I'm a strong woman who can handle all my house chores and my man by myself and give birth to my own children. I'm not useless like many other muslim women who can't do basic things like look after their own men and families without having to resort to polygamy. Polygamy is for women with no self-respect. Even the pagans practiced polygamy! How does polygamy make muslims better than the pagans? You carry on as though polygamy were a commandment. This topic was not about polygamy. But, daughter of islam just had to hijack it with her dirty laundry. She made my whole thread smell like old raw fish. It was disgusting. Then she had to tell me that i was blind. Blind to what? Other women's husbands? How can i go to hell for not advocating polygamy? How can i go to hell for being stupid enough to ever believe that allah could bless women?
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Final Overture on September 23, 2012, 09:26:15 am
Quote
How can i go to hell for not advocating polygamy? How can i go to hell for being stupid enough to ever believe that allah could bless women?
Noone said that you go to Hell for it, and no one said that Allah doesn't bless women. "Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer - We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do." (16:97)

Here is the quote from the book called
"WOMEN IN ISLAM VERSUS WOMEN IN THE
JUDAEO-CHRISTIAN TRADITION:

THE MYTH
&
THE REALITY"

BY

Dr. Sherif Abdel Azeem


Quote
Let us now tackle the important question of polygamy. Polygamy is a very ancient practice found in many human societies. The Bible did not condemn polygamy. To the contrary, the Old Testament and Rabbinic writings frequently attest to the legality of polygamy. King Solomon is said to have had 700 wives and 300 concubines (1 Kings 11:3) Also, king David is said to have had many wives and concubines (2 Samuel 5:13). The Old Testament does have some injunctions on how to distribute the property of a man among his sons from different wives (Deut. 22:7). The only restriction on polygamy is a ban on taking a wife's sister as a rival wife (Lev. 18:18). The Talmud advises a maximum of four wives. 51 European Jews continued to practice polygamy until the sixteenth century. Oriental Jews regularly practiced polygamy until they arrived in Israel where it is forbidden under civil law. However, under religious law which overrides civil law in such cases, it is permissible. 52

What about the New Testament? According to Father Eugene Hillman in his insightful book, Polygamy reconsidered, "Nowhere in the New Testament is there any explicit commandment that marriage should be monogamous or any explicit commandment forbidding polygamy." 53 Moreover, Jesus has not spoken against polygamy though it was practiced by the Jews of his society. Father Hillman stresses the fact that the Church in Rome banned polygamy in order to conform to the Greco-Roman culture (which prescribed only one legal wife while tolerating concubinage and prostitution). He cited St. Augustine, "Now indeed in our time, and in keeping with Roman custom, it is no longer allowed to take another wife." 54 African churches and African Christians often remind their European brothers that the Church's ban on polygamy is a cultural tradition and not an authentic Christian injunction.

The Quran, too, allowed polygamy, but not without restrictions:

"If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one" (4:3).

The Quran, contrary to the Bible, limited the maximum number of wives to four under the strict condition of treating the wives equally and justly. It should not be understood that the Quran is exhorting the believers to practice polygamy, or that polygamy is considered as an ideal. In other words, the Quran has "tolerated" or "allowed" polygamy, and no more, but why? Why is polygamy permissible ? The answer is simple: there are places and times in which there are compelling social and moral reasons for polygamy. As the above Quranic verse indicates, the issue of polygamy in Islam cannot be understood apart from community obligations towards orphans and widows. Islam as a universal religion suitable for all places and all times could not ignore these compelling obligations.

In most human societies, females outnumber males. In the U.S. there are, at least, eight million more women than men. In a country like Guinea there are 122 females for every 100 males. In Tanzania, there are 95.1 males per 100 females. 55 What should a society do towards such unbalanced sex ratios? There are various solutions, some might suggest celibacy, others would prefer female infanticide (which does happen in some societies in the world today !). Others may think the only outlet is that the society should tolerate all manners of sexual permissiveness: prostitution, sex out of wedlock, homosexuality, etc. For other societies , like most African societies today, the most honorable outlet is to allow polygamous marriage as a culturally accepted and socially respected institution. The point that is often misunderstood in the West is that women in other cultures do not necessarily look at polygamy as a sign of women's degradation. For example, many young African brides , whether Christians or Muslims or otherwise, would prefer to marry a married man who has already proved himself to be a responsible husband. Many African wives urge their husbands to get a second wife so that they do not feel lonely. 56 A survey of over six thousand women, ranging in age from 15 to 59, conducted in the second largest city in Nigeria showed that 60 percent of these women would be pleased if their husbands took another wife. Only 23 percent expressed anger at the idea of sharing with another wife. Seventy-six percent of the women in a survey conducted in Kenya viewed polygamy positively. In a survey undertaken in rural Kenya, 25 out of 27 women considered polygamy to be better than monogamy. These women felt polygamy can be a happy and beneficial experience if the co-wives cooperate with each other. 57 Polygamy in most African societies is such a respectable institution that some Protestant churches are becoming more tolerant of it. A bishop of the Anglican Church in Kenya declared that, "Although monogamy may be ideal for the expression of love between husband and wife, the church should consider that in certain cultures polygyny is socially acceptable and that the belief that polygyny is contrary to Christianity is no longer tenable." 58 After a careful study of African polygamy, Reverend David Gitari of the Anglican Church has concluded that polygamy, as ideally practiced, is more Christian than divorce and remarriage as far as the abandoned wives and children are concerned. 59 I personally know of some highly educated African wives who, despite having lived in the West for many years, do not have any objections against polygamy. One of them, who lives in the U.S., solemnly exhorts her husband to get a second wife to help her in raising the kids.

The problem of the unbalanced sex ratios becomes truly problematic at times of war. Native American Indian tribes used to suffer highly unbalanced sex ratios after wartime losses. Women in these tribes, who in fact enjoyed a fairly high status, accepted polygamy as the best protection against indulgence in indecent activities. European settlers, without offering any other alternative, condemned this Indian polygamy as 'uncivilised'. 60 After the second world war, there were 7,300,000 more women than men in Germany (3.3 million of them were widows). There were 100 men aged 20 to 30 for every 167 women in that age group. 61 Many of these women needed a man not only as a companion but also as a provider for the household in a time of unprecedented misery and hardship. The soldiers of the victorious Allied Armies exploited these women's vulnerability. Many young girls and widows had liaisons with members of the occupying forces. Many American and British soldiers paid for their pleasures in cigarettes, chocolate, and bread. Children were overjoyed at the gifts these strangers brought. A 10 year old boy on hearing of such gifts from other children wished from all his heart for an 'Englishman' for his mother so that she need not go hungry any longer. 62 We have to ask our own conscience at this point: What is more dignifying to a woman? An accepted and respected second wife as in the native Indians' approach, or a virtual prostitute as in the 'civilised' Allies approach? In other words, what is more dignifying to a woman, the Quranic prescription or the theology based on the culture of the Roman Empire?

It is interesting to note that in an international youth conference held in Munich in 1948 the problem of the highly unbalanced sex ratio in Germany was discussed. When it became clear that no solution could be agreed upon, some participants suggested polygamy. The initial reaction of the gathering was a mixture of shock and disgust. However, after a careful study of the proposal, the participants agreed that it was the only possible solution. Consequently, polygamy was included among the conference final recommendations. 63

The world today possesses more weapons of mass destruction than ever before and the European churches might, sooner or later, be obliged to accept polygamy as the only way out. Father Hillman has thoughtfully recognized this fact, "It is quite conceivable that these genocidal techniques (nuclear, biological, chemical..) could produce so drastic an imbalance among the sexes that plural marriage would become a necessary means of survival....Then contrary to previous custom and law, an overriding natural and moral inclination might arise in favour of polygamy. In such a situation, theologians and church leaders would quickly produce weighty reasons and biblical texts to justify a new conception of marriage." 64

To the present day, polygamy continues to be a viable solution to some of the social ills of modern societies. The communal obligations that the Quran mentions in association with the permission of polygamy are more visible at present in some Western societies than in Africa. For example, In the United States today, there is a severe gender crisis in the black community. One out of every twenty young black males may die before reaching the age of 21. For those between 20 and 35 years of age, homicide is the leading cause of death. 65 Besides, many young black males are unemployed, in jail, or on dope. 66 As a result, one in four black women, at age 40, has never married, as compared with one in ten white women. 67 Moreover, many young black females become single mothers before the age of 20 and find themselves in need of providers. The end result of these tragic circumstances is that an increasing number of black women are engaged in what is called 'man-sharing'. 68 That is, many of these hapless single black women are involved in affairs with married men. The wives are often unaware of the fact that other women are 'sharing' their husbands with them. Some observers of the crisis of man-sharing in the African American community strongly recommend consensual polygamy as a temporary answer to the shortage of black males until more comprehensive reforms in the American society at large are undertaken. 69 By consensual polygamy they mean a polygamy that is sanctioned by the community and to which all the parties involved have agreed, as opposed to the usually secret man-sharing which is detrimental both to the wife and to the community in general. The problem of man-sharing in the African American community was the topic of a panel discussion held at Temple University in Philadelphia on January 27, 1993. 70 Some of the speakers recommended polygamy as one potential remedy for the crisis. They also suggested that polygamy should not be banned by law, particularly in a society that tolerates prostitution and mistresses. The comment of one woman from the audience that African Americans needed to learn from Africa where polygamy was responsibly practiced elicited enthusiastic applause.

Philip Kilbride, an American anthropologist of Roman Catholic heritage, in his provocative book, Plural marriage for our time, proposes polygamy as a solution to some of the ills of the American society at large. He argues that plural marriage may serve as a potential alternative for divorce in many cases in order to obviate the damaging impact of divorce on many children. He maintains that many divorces are caused by the rampant extramarital affairs in the American society. According to Kilbride, ending an extramarital affair in a polygamous marriage, rather than in a divorce, is better for the children, "Children would be better served if family augmentation rather than only separation and dissolution were seen as options." Moreover, he suggests that other groups will also benefit from plural marriage such as: elderly women who face a chronic shortage of men and the African Americans who are involved in man-sharing. 71

In 1987, a poll conducted by the student newspaper at the university of California at Berkeley asked the students whether they agreed that men should be allowed by law to have more than one wife in response to a perceived shortage of male marriage candidates in California. Almost all of the students polled approved of the idea. One female student even stated that a polyganous marriage would fulfil her emotional and physical needs while giving her greater freedom than a monogamous union. 72 In fact, this same argument is also used by the few remaining fundamentalist Mormon women who still practice polygamy in the U.S. They believe that polygamy is an ideal way for a woman to have both a career and children since the wives help each other care for the children. 73

It has to be added that polygamy in Islam is a matter of mutual consent. No one can force a woman to marry a married man. Besides, the wife has the right to stipulate that her husband must not marry any other woman as a second wife. 74 The Bible, on the other hand, sometimes resorts to forcible polygamy. A childless widow must marry her husband's brother, even if he is already married (see the "Plight of Widows" section),regardless of her consent (Genesis 38:8-10).

It should be noted that in many Muslim societies today the practice of polygamy is rare since the gap between the numbers of both sexes is not huge. One can, safely, say that the rate of polygamous marriages in the Muslim world is much less than the rate of extramarital affairs in the West. In other words, men in the Muslim world today are far more strictly monogamous than men in the Western world.

Billy Graham, the eminent Christian evangelist has recognized this fact: "Christianity cannot compromise on the question of polygamy. If present-day Christianity cannot do so, it is to its own detriment. Islam has permitted polygamy as a solution to social ills and has allowed a certain degree of latitude to human nature but only within the strictly defined framework of the law. Christian countries make a great show of monogamy, but actually they practice polygamy. No one is unaware of the part mistresses play in Western society. In this respect Islam is a fundamentally honest religion, and permits a Muslim to marry a second wife if he must, but strictly forbids all clandestine amatory associations in order to safeguard the moral probity of the community." 75 It is of interest to note that many, non-Muslim as well as Muslim, countries in the world today have outlawed polygamy. Taking a second wife, even with the free consent of the first wife, is a violation of the law. On the other hand, cheating on the wife, without her knowledge or consent, is perfectly legitimate as far as the law is concerned! What is the legal wisdom behind such a contradiction? Is the law designed to reward deception and punish honesty? It is one of the unfathomable paradoxes of our modern 'civilised' world.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: mokko on September 23, 2012, 10:02:10 am
Antiaparteid, you can also note that Muslim men who defend polygamy in debates, or wage war against non-Muslims, are usually not polygamous at all. Actually, they are often single.  They do the "dirty job"so that their leaders could enjoy their harem peacefully.

See the article: "Ten Politically Incorrect Truths About Human Nature"

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200706/ten-politically-incorrect-truths-about-human-nature?page=2


"The surprising answer from the evolutionary psychological perspective is that Muslim suicide bombing may have nothing to do with Islam or the Koran (except for two lines in it). It may have nothing to do with the religion, politics, the culture, the race, the ethnicity, the language, or the region. As with everything else from this perspective, it may have a lot to do with sex, or, in this case, the absence of sex.

What distinguishes Islam from other major religions is that it tolerates polygyny. By allowing some men to monopolize all women and altogether excluding many men from reproductive opportunities, polygyny creates shortages of available women. If 50 percent of men have two wives each, then the other 50 percent don't get any wives at all.

So polygyny increases competitive pressure on men, especially young men of low status. It therefore increases the likelihood that young men resort to violent means to gain access to mates. By doing so, they have little to lose and much to gain compared with men who already have wives. Across all societies, polygyny makes men violent, increasing crimes such as murder and rape, even after controlling for such obvious factors as economic development, economic inequality, population density, the level of democracy, and political factors in the region.
"
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Egyptian on September 23, 2012, 10:38:23 am



dear mokko ,just wanted to make simple comment

What distinguishes Islam from other major religions is that it tolerates polygyny.

the bible tolerates polygamy as well ....  there is a full christian site dedicated to support polygamy

http://www.biblepolygamy.com/

regards
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Antiaparteid on September 23, 2012, 12:15:08 pm
I have, while still catholic, read the bible from genesus to revelation.

Since i had abandoned christianity to be "muslim", i haven't read the bible, except for verses quoted online.

I don't care what the bible says about polygamy. Christians, and their deeds are not my problem.

I just meant to state how "allah blesses women", but i regret what has become of this topic. This topic has meant my persecution.

Mokko, you are a very sensible man. You got me thinking that maybe Egyptian and Final Overture might be single. They have to be--what married man would have the time to do what they have been?

I believe that love is an important part of marriage. When you love your spouse, you don't look for a replacement or auxiliary when they get bed-ridden. When you love your spouse, you don't try to lessen your burden by looking for a second wife; you understand that marriage is a job made for one woman; marriage is not an assembly line; marriage is artistry; marriage can be a masterpiece by one woman. When you love someone you don't judge him by his bank account; marriage is not for convenience; two people can work together to build an empire; and if you fail--so what? When you love someone you stick by their side thru the flood and drought; you work on your marriage, even as peasants. When you love your spouse, even after aging, or sickness or injury or faded beauty, you remember that they are still the same in spirit; you see the  person you first felt in love with even behind their wrinkles.

I could go on and on...and on... You get the point...if you know what love is.

But, many muslim don't know the meaning of the word. They cannot get it (love) around their heads, or in their hearts. In islam love is not a requisite for marriage. Marriage is just about a dower and...hmm, that's about it. It's very sad for me. But, maybe I'm just being sentimental. Mothers are not even required to love their children. In many cases, they breast-feed their kids for monetry compensation. How would you feel to know that your mother only mothered you because she was being paid. Thankfull, their are plenty of muslim mothers who love their children dearly over and above what is required by sharia law. It's also good to know that their are muslim couples who love each other dearly and unconditionally.

For the single guys who spend their lonely lives defending polygamy: don't worry inshalla you'll have a hot wife (or 4) and precious children to keep you occupied.

I actually live in a free country. I'm free to do what i like as long as i don't break the laws. So, i didn't start this thread out of frustration. I'm free. It just irritates me when muslim women, out of desperation for food parcels, go to madrassa, to be indoctrinated into believing that they are useless without men--even jobless, drunkard men. These women are already suffering from low levels of motivation, but these muslim institutions don't address the causes of these social dysfunctions. All they do is hand out food parcels. And, the only way for these literally poor muslim women to get those food parcels, is to attend regular madrassa during working hours, so they can't even have jobs. Even in this free country, muslim women indoctrinated like this don't finish school, don't live decent lives. These women are talked into marrying foreign men to secure a home and food. These women don't even get dowers. Many of them still have to rely on state social grants, because their husbands don't work to support them.

So, was it wrong for me to have hope for them--hope that allah can be gracious to such women?
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Final Overture on September 24, 2012, 07:53:23 am
I have, while still catholic, read the bible from genesus to revelation.
Good one.
Quote
I just meant to state how "allah blesses women", but i regret what has become of this topic. This topic has meant my persecution.

So, what was the necessity of starting the thread? Everyone knows that Allah blesses women, and that the believers - both men and women - will be in Paradise. Qur'an 4:124 And whoever does righteous deeds, whether male or female, while being a believer - those will enter Paradise and will not be wronged, [even as much as] the speck on a date seed.

Quote
In islam love is not a requisite for marriage
It is.

Quote
So, was it wrong for me to have hope for them--hope that allah can be gracious to such women?
Really? Allah is gracious.
Qur'an 2:136 And your god is one God. There is no deity [worthy of worship] except Him, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.


So, I want to see what you will say on these:
Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
Messenger of Allah () said, "The believers who show the most perfect Faith are those who have the best behaviour, and the best of you are those who are the best to their wives". Riyad as-Salihin Book 1' Hadith 278

And the similar one:

"Abu Hurairah narrated that The Messenger of Allah said:
“The most complete of the believers in faith, is the one with the best character among them. And the best of you are those who are best to your women.” (Hasan)

Jami` at-Tirmidhi Vol. 1, Book 7, Hadith 1162
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: RamziBinNabil on September 25, 2012, 12:23:17 pm
May peace and Allah's blessings be upon you all! Do you know that nowadays in the West they are getting most of the laws of inheritance from the Glorious Qur'an itself. In addition, Islam gave women a higher status than they were ever given in all of history up until the present day! All praises and thanks are due to Allah the Almighty for making us from amongst the nation of Prophet Muhammad (may Almighty Allah bless him and grant him peace).
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: mokko on September 26, 2012, 03:58:55 am
the bible tolerates polygamy as well ....  there is a full christian site dedicated to support polygamy

http://www.biblepolygamy.com/

regards

yes, but I guess that the author of the article referred to practice by Christians. And of course, the author is wrong, because there are other religions that tolerate polygyny.

maybe he simply meant: "Islam is the most famous religion where you still find many adherents who defend polygyny".

the point of the author is partly false: today, the practice of polygyny is marginal in arab countries. however, sexual frustration is very important, and the author is correct to connect this frustration with violence. there are plenty of examples not related to religion (see for example the fury over the football match egypt-algeria, etc..).
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: mokko on September 26, 2012, 04:36:27 am
So, was it wrong for me to have hope for them--hope that allah can be gracious to such women?

Your intention was certainly good. However, the result might still be partly wrong, and people on this forum can tell you why.

1. the fate of those women could be sad indeed, but the fate of single and career-oriented women in the West is equally sad. Muslim women with families often show a symmetric compassion for their "professionally successful" sisters in the West. In all countries, it is hard to combine career and family.


2. Even in the West, most people are just realistic: marriage is not about love, it is about building a family. It is a job like others (sometimes equally boring). In real life, Western people do not live in their soap operas and telenovelas. Their pragmatism and lack of romantism can be a shock for people who know the West only through television (but now, with internet, reality emerges..).

3. The Muslim female question is always understood with the background of cultural imperialism. Western people will always get the "clean your own backyard first" reaction, even if the Muslim backyard is also not very clean.

Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: mokko on September 26, 2012, 12:50:10 pm
For the single guys who spend their lonely lives defending polygamy: don't worry inshalla you'll have a hot wife (or 4) and precious children to keep you occupied.

You complained of being persecuted, but now, it is irresponsible to use your little power to persecute others. Knowing that Muslim man supremacy is only a "tiger of paper" should not turn you into a bully.

In Muslim countries, women on streets get harrassed because men feel "bullied" by female appearance, and they try to overcome this feeling of vulnerability by getting aggressive (something women usually do not understand, they get scared and ignore that the man was actually interested). This lack of confidence on both sides is a source of this misunderstanding, I think.

When Muslim women respect male sensitivity, they will no longer need hijabs and niqabs to go out (btw, the Quran explicitly refers to female harrassment when dealing with female covering).
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Antiaparteid on September 27, 2012, 09:38:36 am
In Muslim countries, women on streets get harrassed because men feel "bullied" by female appearance,

Please explain how a man can feel "bullied" by a woman's appearance.

 
and they try to overcome this feeling of vulnerability by getting aggressive

When Muslim women respect male sensitivity, they will no longer need hijabs and [...]

I have to disagree with the above. I think [bold] muslim men [/bold] should take responsiblity for their actions, and learn to control their actions. The muslim governments must toughen laws against those harassers. We need sharia-reforms that will protect women--and their freedom to dress and act as provocatively as they please. 
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: mokko on September 28, 2012, 03:51:26 am
Please explain how a man can feel "bullied" by a woman's appearance.

When you get repeatedly turned-on, without being able to succumb to this temptation. It is a torture. It is Tantalus's punishment.

You can exercise self-control on moderate levels of temptation, but beyond some point, it becomes impossible. You cannot build a society by repressing desire. This energy has to flow somewhere. It is better to channel this energy in constructive ways, instead of desperately trying to suppress it with harsh and violent laws (or inner codes of conduct). What did they achieve with this brutal method? In my opinion, just frustration and unhappiness.

In most non-Muslim countries (in the West and elsewhere), they do not need these repressive laws. They distinguish between harrassment and legitimate courtship. In those countries, women have the right to attract men with provocative dress, and they enjoy being respectfully (but confidently) approached and complimented. They also have the right to decline sollicitations (more or less politely) from unwanted approaches, and rejected men silently move on to the next. And life goes on for everyone.

There are many problems associated with this more liberal way of life, but in practice, Muslim societies have certainly not found the solution to them.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: RamziBinNabil on September 28, 2012, 06:26:11 am
As-Salâmu `Alaykum Wa Rahmatullâhi Wa Barakâtuh.
Just to make things clear, Islam is a religion of ease, not difficulty. Islam is probably the only religion that actually was made in such a way that every human is capable of following physically, mentally, and emotionally. Allâh, the Most Glorified and Exalted, and His Noble Messenger (may Almighty Allâh bless him and grant him peace) do not make anything unlawful just like that. There is always great wisdom and a vital reason behind their commands. When something is made unlawful, it has been made unlawful because it either harms the person doing it or him and the people around him. People oftenly think bad about us Muslims and Islam as a whole because, apart from all the false rumors and propaganda, they criticize Islam and it's commandments without knowing the truth behind them.
To begin with, to whoever said that Allâh, the Almighty and Sublime, only likes males and detests females; of the most repeated verses that Allâh, the Almighty and Sublime, stressed on in the Glorious Qur'ân is one that states, "Bring your proof if you are truthful." If you make any kind of claim in life, you must at least bring some kind of proof or evidence to support your claim. You cannot just claim to own a piece of land without getting some sort of evidence to prove it. Until you find a verse in the Glorious Qur'ân or a Hadîth supporting what you have said, you have no right to say such a thing. On the contrary, if a female is pious and fears Allâh, the Most Gracious and Merciful, He would like her and she would be more honorable in His sight than all males who are less pious and God-fearing than her. Allâh, the Most Glorified and Exalted, states in Sûratul-Hujurât, verse number 13. "Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allâh is the most righteous of you." [49:13]
With regards to the post dealing with Islam and polygamy; as mentioned previously in this post, people criticize Islam without knowing the truth and wisdom behind it. The Glorious Qur'ân permits but does not command a male to have more than just one wife. As a matter of fact, the Glorious Qur'ân stipulates that he is to have one wife. In addition, olygamy provides a reasonable solution to some of life's problems. When there is a shortage of males, for instance after a devastating war, many females will not be capable of finding husbands for themselves. Most women in that case, given the option, would prefer being co-wives than not being married in the first place. Polygamy was and still is practiced by many other religions and cultures aside of Islam. It is also permitted in Biblical and post-Biblical Judaism. All the way from Abraham, David, and Solomon (peace and blessings be upon them) down to the reformation period, polygamy was practiced. Some people incorrectly assume that Muslim males must have 4 wives thus multiple wives are seldom found in Islam today. If you read up on history, in those days, society allowed males to marry as many wives as they had willed, whereas Islam limited the number of wives to four.
Polygamy is even allowed in the Old Testament. For example, in Exodus 21:10, a male can marry an infinite number of females. In addition, in 2 Samuel 5:13, 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, and 14:3, King David (peace and blessings be upon him) had six wives and numerous concubines. In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon (peace and blessings be upon him) was mentioned to have had 700 wives and 300 concubines. In 2 Chronicles 11:21, Rehoboam, the son of King Solomon (peace and blessings be upon him), had 18 wives and 60 concubines. There are many more verses from the Old Testament that permit polygamy, but those above seem sufficient enough to prove the point.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: Antiaparteid on September 29, 2012, 04:10:48 am
Please explain how a man can feel "bullied" by a woman's appearance.

When you get repeatedly turned-on, without being able to succumb to this temptation. It is a torture. It is Tantalus's punishment.

You can exercise self-control on moderate levels of temptation, but beyond some point, it becomes impossible. You cannot build a society by repressing desire. This energy has to flow somewhere. It is better to channel this energy in constructive ways, instead of desperately trying to suppress it with harsh and violent laws (or inner codes of conduct). What did they achieve with this brutal method? In my opinion, just frustration and unhappiness.

In most non-Muslim countries (in the West and elsewhere), they do not need these repressive laws. They distinguish between harrassment and legitimate courtship. In those countries, women have the right to attract men with provocative dress, and they enjoy being respectfully (but confidently) approached and complimented. They also have the right to decline sollicitations (more or less politely) from unwanted approaches, and rejected men silently move on to the next. And life goes on for everyone.

There are many problems associated with this more liberal way of life, but in practice, Muslim societies have certainly not found the solution to them.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: RamziBinNabil on September 30, 2012, 12:55:46 pm
Of course Almighty Allah blesses women. Even the Messenger of Allah (may Almighty Allah bless him and grant him peace) said, ""Heaven is under the feet of the mothers." In addition, Islam gave women a higher status than they had ever had and ever will have in history. Watch the video by Yusuf Estes about the rights Islam gave to women.
Title: Re: Allah blesses women
Post by: MuslimBoy on June 05, 2014, 01:32:14 pm
This thread was a foolishness.
Oh, so second wives are actually glorified maids? Wonderful.
This is the Biggest reason, why I hate Feminists and their thinking as they just want to Undermine Others by Saying " We are submissive, Men Undermine us." and the Polygamy is allowed mainly for widows Assume you are a widow and you have two or more children then What do you think you should marry? 1. Unmarried man 2. Married Man. I Prefer the married one.
Why do women do salat behind men? It's simple. Men pray to allah; women pray to men.
Who tell you that women Pray Salat behind Men. 100% sure that you were/are  not a muslim.
Quote from: Antiapartheid
You carry on as though polygamy were a commandment.
It was just Permissible not a Neccessity.
Quote from: Antiapartheid
Mokko, you are a very sensible man.
He is a First class liar. I think you can call a liar a sensible man.